JRE MMA Show #61 with Herb Dean
Joe Rogan (host), Herb Dean (guest), Narrator, Narrator, Narrator, Narrator
In this episode of The Joe Rogan Experience, featuring Joe Rogan and Herb Dean, JRE MMA Show #61 with Herb Dean explores herb Dean Reveals Refereeing Realities, Fighter Safety, And MMA Evolution Herb Dean joins Joe Rogan for an in‑depth conversation about the unique pressures and responsibilities of MMA refereeing, especially around fighter safety, stoppages, and dangerous submissions. They dissect controversial moments such as Ben Askren vs. Robbie Lawler, bulldog chokes, neck-crank scenarios, and the technical/ethical dilemmas referees face in real time. The discussion broadens into performance-enhancing drugs, USADA testing, and how changing science complicates the sport’s history and fairness. Along the way they explore the global growth of MMA, stylistic evolution of fighters, and how martial arts culture, travel, and personal discipline shape both athletes and officials.
Herb Dean Reveals Refereeing Realities, Fighter Safety, And MMA Evolution
Herb Dean joins Joe Rogan for an in‑depth conversation about the unique pressures and responsibilities of MMA refereeing, especially around fighter safety, stoppages, and dangerous submissions. They dissect controversial moments such as Ben Askren vs. Robbie Lawler, bulldog chokes, neck-crank scenarios, and the technical/ethical dilemmas referees face in real time. The discussion broadens into performance-enhancing drugs, USADA testing, and how changing science complicates the sport’s history and fairness. Along the way they explore the global growth of MMA, stylistic evolution of fighters, and how martial arts culture, travel, and personal discipline shape both athletes and officials.
Key Takeaways
Referees must prioritize safety over spectacle, even when outcomes feel inconclusive.
Dean explains that in chokes like the bulldog on Lawler, once he sees an arm go limp with the neck being cranked, he has to assume unconsciousness and stop the fight to avoid catastrophic spinal or nerve damage, regardless of crowd reaction or controversy.
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Understanding technique in depth is essential for fair stoppages and scoring.
Dean insists that refs and judges must be able to teach and technically explain submissions and positions (e. ...
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Certain submissions pose far higher injury risk and demand faster intervention.
He contrasts rear-naked chokes (low risk if someone goes out briefly) with neck-cranking bulldogs, guillotine counters, and spinal-bending moves like the twister or ‘executioner,’ where a few extra seconds can mean paralysis.
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Referees must resist promoter, crowd, and media pressure to maintain integrity.
Dean notes that promotions and commissions sometimes hint at wanting fast stand-ups or action, but he refuses to alter his standards, since only his name and reputation are attached to controversial calls when things go wrong.
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Modern anti-doping advances are reshaping legacies and raising hard questions.
The TJ Dillashaw EPO case leads into a broader reflection on how new detection methods and stored samples can retroactively expose long-term cheating, complicating title histories and raising the issue of how far back to re-test and what to do with old results.
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MMA has entered a highly advanced, stylistically diverse era.
They highlight athletes like Israel Adesanya, Khabib Nurmagomedov, Demian Maia, Zabit Magomedsharipov, and Russian/Caucasus fighters as proof that striking, wrestling, and leg-lock games have evolved dramatically since the early days, with specialists still thriving inside a complete MMA skill set.
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Refereeing and judging can and should be systematically taught and certified.
Dean runs multi-day courses where candidates must demonstrate technical MMA knowledge, learn shorthand scoring methods, and pass standards recognized by athletic commissions, aiming to raise baseline competence and consistency worldwide.
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Notable Quotes
““I feel that I have a sacred trust… I need to balance their dreams with their safety.””
— Herb Dean
““What I saw was everything that would indicate an unconscious fighter. I see an arm go limp for no reason whatsoever.””
— Herb Dean on stopping Askren vs. Lawler
““With some chokes, my job gets easier. With that bulldog choke, things are not easy at all.””
— Herb Dean
““At the end of the day, no one’s gonna know they told me to do it. It’s gonna be me doing it.””
— Herb Dean on ignoring outside pressure
““You can’t call him a specialist because Jon does so many different styles… It’s really like a kung fu movie where you change styles.””
— Herb Dean on Jon Jones
Questions Answered in This Episode
How should regulators balance the desire to correct past PED-cheating with the chaos of rewriting large parts of MMA history?
Herb Dean joins Joe Rogan for an in‑depth conversation about the unique pressures and responsibilities of MMA refereeing, especially around fighter safety, stoppages, and dangerous submissions. ...
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What objective criteria could be added or clarified to reduce controversy around stoppages in chokes, especially when fighters appear semi-conscious?
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Should dangerous submissions that primarily attack the spine or neck (e.g., executioner, certain bulldog cranks) be more tightly regulated or even banned in MMA?
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Would more systematic, global training and certification for judges significantly reduce bad decisions, or are judging controversies inevitable in a subjective sport?
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How might the rise of highly specialized regional styles (Dagestani wrestling, Russian leg locks, high-level striking teams) shape rule changes or referee training in the next decade?
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Transcript Preview
... five, four, three. I was good that day, but then the next day, like, oh. Live. And we're live, Herb Dean. How are you, sir?
I'm good. How about yourself?
So glad we're finally doing this.
Yeah. (laughs)
You and I have talked about doing a podcast for the last, like, three years.
Yeah, yeah. See, yeah, you know, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm glad to be on it. Yeah.
(laughs)
Hang out with you, talk to you for a little bit.
D- I think, and I've said this before, you have the hardest job in the sport, other than the fighters. There's the fighters, obviously, they have the hardest job. You have the second-hardest job. Referee is the second-hardest job in the sport. It's a fucking hard job. Like, you have so much responsibility.
Yeah, I think you have a really hard job.
I think-
I think the talk... How long do you talk for?
T- it's just, uh, hours, six hours.
Six hours, and-
Yeah.
... and sometimes there's not always something interesting to talk about. And, uh, or sometimes, yeah, so I think, uh, it's amazing to be able to talk about that, uh-
It's not that e- easy. It's not that hard, rather. It's pretty easy. I mean, it's just a bunch of stuff's happening-
Mm-hmm.
... and you're calling it. And I'm, I'm a blabbermouth, so I can't shut the fuck up anyway. So if there's spots where there's, it's not that interesting-
Okay, I see what you mean.
... I'll just find something interesting to say. (laughs)
All right. (laughs)
But it's not that... It's, you know, uh, in terms of, like, what's, what's happening is happening. You know what I mean? The guy's getting hit, the guy's getting choked. There's a lot of crazy action going on. And it's really f- pretty easy if you're a lifelong fan of martial arts, like I am-
Right, right, right.
... to call it. You know, as long as you're enthusiastic-
Yeah, yeah.
... and you're interested in d- And you, you know, you gotta treat it with respect. You gotta treat w- it for what it is, you know? You're, you're trying to entertain people.
Mm-hmm.
You're trying to, uh, use the, your words in the most, uh, pleasing way possible. You know, you're trying to massage people's ears in, in a way, you know? You're trying to, you're trying to also represent what you're seeing and how special it is.
Yeah.
Especially great fights.
Yeah, I did it a little bit, not for real. Like, uh, somehow I used to, I'd do this thing that was for these people at Blackbelt TV, and I was with, um, Don "The Dragon" Wilson, and they were just, like, old fights, and we're supposed to commentate this old fight. And that's why I think it's hard, 'cause I was horrible at it.
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