Ronald Sullivan: The Ideal of Justice in the Face of Controversy and Evil | Lex Fridman Podcast #170

The following is a conversation with Ronald Sullivan, a professor at Harvard Law School known for taking on difficult and controversial cases. He was on the head legal defense team for the Patriots football player, Aaron Hernandez, in his double murder case. He represented one of the Jena Six defendants and never lost a case during his years in Washington, DC's Public Defender Services office. In 2019, Ronald joined the legal defense team of Harvey Weinstein, a film producer facing multiple charges of rape and other sexual assault. This decision met with criticism from Harvard University students, including an online petitioner by students seeking his removal as faculty dean of Winthrop House. Then, a letter supporting him signed by 52 Harvard Law School professors appeared in the Boston Globe on March 8th, 2019. Following this, the Harvard Administration succumbed to the pressure of a few Harvard students and announced that they will not be renewing Ronald Sullivan's dean position. This created a major backlash in the public discourse over the necessary role of universities in upholding the principles of law and freedom at the very foundation of the United States. This conversation is brought to you by Brooklyn in Sheets, Wine Access online wine store, Munk Pack low carb snacks, and Blinkist app that summarizes books. Click their links to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that the free exchange of difficult ideas is the only mechanism through which we can make progress. Truth is not a safe space. Truth is humbling, and being humbled can hurt, but this is the role of education not just in the university, but in business and in life. Freedom and compassion can co-exist, but it requires work and patience. It requires listening to the voices and to the experiences unlike our own. Listening, not silencing. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here is my conversation with Ronald Sullivan. You were one of the lawyers who represented the Hollywood producer, Harvey Weinstein, in advance of his sexual assault trial. For this, Harvard forced you to step down as faculty deans, uh, you and your wife of Winthrop House. Can you tell the story of this saga from our first deciding to represent Harvey Weinstein to the interesting complicated events that followed?

Yeah, sure. So, I got a call one morning from a colleague at the Harvard Law School who, uh, asked if, uh, I would consent to taking a call from, from Harvey. Uh, he wanted to meet me and, um, and chat with me about representing him. I said, "Yes," and, um, one thing led to another, uh, I, uh, drove out to Connecticut, uh, where he was staying and met with him and some of his advisors, and then, uh, a day or two later, I decided to, to take the case. This would have been back in, uh, January of 2019, uh, I, I believe. So, the sort of cases I, I have a very small practice. Most of my time is, is teaching and, and writing, uh, but, uh, I tend to take cases that most, uh, deem to be, uh, impossible. Uh, uh, I take the challenging sorts of cases and, and this was, um, uh, fit the bill. It was quite challenging (laughs) in a sense that, uh, everyone had, uh, pre-judged the case. When I say everyone, I just mean the general sentiment in the public, uh, uh, had the case pre-judged. Uh, even though the specific allegations did not regard, uh, the, any of the people in the, um, in the New Yorker. That's the New Yorker article that sort of, uh, um, exposed, uh, everything that was going on, um, allegedly with, with Harvey. So, I decided to, uh, to take the case and, uh, I did.