Yuval Noah Harari: Human Nature, Intelligence, Power, and Conspiracies | Lex Fridman Podcast #390

If we now find ourselves inside this kind of world of illusions, created by an alien intelligence that we don't understand, but it understands us, this is a kind of, you know, spiritual enslavement that we won't be able to break out of. Because th- it understands us, it understands how to manipulate us, but we don't understand what is behind this screen of stories and images and, and, and songs.

The following is a conversation with Yuval Noah Harari, a historian, philosopher, and author of several highly acclaimed, highly influential books, including Sapiens, Homo Deus, and 21 Lessons for the 21st Century. He is also an outspoken critic of Benjamin Netanyahu and the current right-wing government in Israel. So while much of this conversation is about the history and future of human civilization, we also discuss the political turmoil of present-day Israel, providing a different perspective from that of my recent conversation with Benjamin Netanyahu. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Yuval Noah Harari. 13.8 billion years ago is the origin of our universe. 3.8 billion years ago is the origin of life here on our little planet, the one we call Earth. Let's say 200,000 years ago is the appearance of early homo sapiens. So let me ask you this question. How r- rare are these events in the vastness of space and time? Or put it in a more fun way, how many intelligent alien civilizations do you think are out there in this universe?

Hmm.

Us being one of them.

I suppose there should be some, statistically, but we don't have any evidence. But I do think that, you know, intelligence in any way, it's a bit overvalued. We are the most intelligent entities on this planet, and look what we are doing. So intelligence also tends to be self-destructive, which implies that if there are or were intelligent life forms elsewhere, maybe they don't survive for long.

So you think there's a tension between happiness and intelligence?

Absolutely. Intelligence is definitely not something that, uh, is directed towards amplifying happiness. I, I would also emphasize the huge, huge difference between intelligence and consciousness, which, uh, many people, certainly in the tech industry and in the AI industry, ten- tend to miss. Intelligence is simply the ability to solve problems, uh, to attain goals, and, you know, to, to win at chess, to, uh, win a struggle for survival, to win a war, to drive a car, uh, to diagnose a disease. Uh, this is intelligence. Consciousness is the ability to feel things like pain and pleasure and love and hate. In humans and other animals, intelligence and consciousness go together. They go hand in hand, which is why we confuse them. We solve problems, we attain goals by having feelings. But, uh, other types of intelligence, certainly in computers, computers are already highly intelligent, and as far as we know, they have zero consciousness. When a computer beats you at chess or Go or whatever, it doesn't feel happy. If it loses, it doesn't feel sad. And, uh, there could be also other highly intelligent entities out there in the universe that have zero consciousness. And I think that consciousness is far more important and valuable than intelligence.