Roger Reaves: Smuggling Drugs for Pablo Escobar and the Medellin Cartel | Lex Fridman Podcast #199

The following is a conversation with Roger Reeves, one of the most prolific drug smugglers in history. He worked for Pablo Escobar and Jorge Ochoa, the leaders behind the Medellín Cartel. Roger was the employer and close friend of Barry Seal, the infamous drug smuggler who was the main character in the movie American Made. Roger transported countless tons of cocaine and marijuana, covering six continents. He escaped prison five times, was shut down in both Mexico and Colombia, and was tortured nearly to death in a Mexican prison. Through all of this, his wife, Mari, the love of his life, was there with him and when he was in prison, she waited for him. He recently got out of prison where for many years he worked on his memoir called Smuggler. This podcast is an exploration of his story. Quick mention of our sponsors: Noom, Allform, ExpressVPN, Four Sigmatic, and Eight Sleep. Check them out in the description to support this podcast. Let me say a few words about Roger Reeves, Pablo Escobar, and the War on Drugs. This conversation with Roger is unlike any I've ever done. In the eyes of many, including the law, Roger is a criminal, a bad man who has added to the suffering in the world. But he never directly engaged or participated in the violence, unlike his bosses, Pablo Escobar and Jorge Ochoa. His crime was the transport of drugs. I thought about this and about Pablo Escobar, who was at once both a brutal murderer and a Robin Hood figure who helped the poor and was loved by thousands, if not millions. We sometimes idolize murderers and destroy good, honest men. We give power and money to corrupt politicians and dictators that starve and murder their own people. Given this, I think about what makes for a good man and what makes for a bad man, and who decides? Sitting across from Roger, I saw a complicated man, but one who has kindness in his heart, a love for money and adventure, and a disdain for violence. Again, his crime was the transport of drugs. Since 1971, the War on Drugs has cost US $1 trillion. Marijuana legalization alone would save and make $13.7 billion. That could send more than 650,000 students to public universities every year. Then there's the human stories of the 500,000 human beings sitting in prison for drug-related offenses, and the 1.1 million on probation and parole. Their life is damaged or ruined beyond repair due to the prohibition of drugs. There's a lot more to be said about the damage done by the War on Drugs. But when reading about Roger's story and talking to him, I couldn't escape the thought that while society wants to label him a criminal and a bad human being, there are much worse men out there who we give a pass to, even give power to, even men who hold political office or run companies. I also think about my role as an interviewer, sitting across a man like Roger. In these interviews, in life, in many ways, I continue to be myself. A person who, like Dostoevsky's the idiot, seeks the good in all people, but is hurt by it on occasion, and maybe is destroyed by it in the end. I'm not naive, but I'm also optimistic and have hope for humanity. That's who I am and that's what these conversations are. I hope you join me and I hope you understand that I come from a place of love. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast, and here's my conversation with Roger Reeves. You are one of the most prolific drug smugglers in history. What would you say motivated you? Money, power, the thrill, or was it something else?