Ryan Hall: Solving Martial Arts from First Principles | Lex Fridman Podcast #169

The following is a conversation with Ryan Hall, his second time on the podcast. He's one of the most innovative scholars of martial arts in the modern era. Quick mention of our sponsors, Indeed hiring website, Audible audiobooks, ExpressVPN, and LMNT electrolyte drink. Click the sponsor links to get a discount and to support this podcast. As a side note, let me say that I've gotten a chance to train with Ryan recently and to both discuss and try out on the mat his ideas about grappling and fighting. What struck me is his unapologetic drive to solve martial arts. It reminds me of the ambitious vision and effort of Google's DeepMind to solve intelligence. In Ryan's case, this isn't some out there martial arts guru talk. This is a style of thinking about the game of human chess, of seeking to define the rules, and to engineer ways from first principles of escaping the constraints of those rules. This style of thinking is rare, but is ultimately the one that leads to the discovery of new revolutionary ideas. If you enjoy this podcast, subscribe to it anywhere or connect with me at Lex Fridman. And now here's my conversation with Ryan Hall. You're known as a systems thinker in martial arts, but you also, I think, are willing to think outside the rules of the game, outside of the system. When you're thinking about strategies of how to, you know, solve the problem, particular problem of an opponent, whether that's jujitsu or in mixed martial arts, what's your process for doing that, for figuring out that puzzle?

I would say, I don't know if I have a specific like A to B to C process for that sort of thing. Um, I try to do my best to, uh, r- appreciate that I think a lot of the thinking, um, or e- maybe not all the thinking, but a lot of great thinking on conflict, on battle, on war, on martial arts has been done already. Um, not that we don't have to do any sort of, uh, background investigation or reassessing of these ideas or axioms that have come down through things like The Book of Five Rings or The Art of War or, you know, e- like von Clausewitz, even anything like that really, but is, uh, eh, we're trying to understand the, the lessons of the past that I think oftentimes we, we don't take with us, um, problem solve. And we pay lip service to them, like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, uh, you know, uh, a victorious fighter, uh, the great fighter, uh, you know, uh, he knows victory is there then he, then he, then he seeks battle. Everyone else is looking for victory in battle. Yeah, moving on and that's why I'm gonna double jab and throw my left hand." And, uh, I think a lot of times our actions don't reflect our stated belief structure, and I think that oftentimes you can tell what I believe really or what my fundamental operating system is based on my actions, whether I'm aware... I have an operating system internally whether I'm aware of it or not, or certainly whether I'm fully aware of it. So I guess, uh, when it comes to strategy I, I try to think about how things interact, and you mentioned systems thinking and I, and I try to do my best to understand how systems exist, but I think that systems have a fundamental strength and a fundamental weakness. They work how they work and that's great, um, but they're readable. So if you are aware, if I am operating on a system, uh, of which you're, you're not really read into then I, I think oftentimes I can seem like y- s- shockingly effective, particularly if my system preys on certain weaknesses, uh, that, that maybe you are, uh, you're given to. But what happens when you've read the same books that I have? I, I think that a lot of times that makes me deeply predictable. I think about systems in jujitsu, you know, and, uh, a lot of times people think that they're doing jujitsu when in reality they are doing an expression of it. Let's say I'll use... There's the Marcelo Garcia system, there is the, uh, Renzo Gracie current, Renzo Gracie system, there's the old Gracie Barra one, there's, uh, you know, the Gracie Academy, classic Gracie Jujitsu, there's the Art of Jujitsu, um, you know, kind of Atos approach and, you know, there's some crossover between a lot of these. But, uh, oftentimes I think, um, you know, when it comes to understanding how I'm making decisions and how my opponent is making decisions, I have to appreciate whether or not I'm an end user of something and I'll use my, my phone as an example. Um, I was thinking of this the other day, and as an end user of my phone, I can't... I have no idea what it does. You know, like Edward Snowden comes up and goes, "Hey guys, you realize your phones are listening to you?" I'm like, "Really? What?"