Jack Barsky: KGB Spy | Lex Fridman Podcast #301

Something happened where they forced my hand. And this is the only time that a, a Soviet agent was anywhere near me on the territory of the United States. So I'm waiting for the A train on, on a dark morning still in Queens, and, uh, there's this, uh, man in a black trench coat comes up to me from my right, and he whispers into my ears, "You gotta come back, or else you're dead."

The following is a conversation with Jack Barsky, a former KGB spy, author of Deep Undercover, and the subject of an excellent podcast series called The Agent. There are very few people who have defected from the KGB and live to tell the story. It is one of the most powerful intelligence organizations in history. And this conversation gives a window into its operation, both from an ideological and psychological perspectives. But also it tells the story of a man who lived one heck of an incredible life. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Jack Barsky. Let's start with a big basic question. What is the KGB? Komitet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti.

Right. So that is the Committee of, uh, State Security. Yeah. Bezopasnost, uh, this is a... Opasnost is a, a threat, right?

Threats. So-

Okay. And B-S means? Is-

Without.

Right. (laughs)

So, and I guess that directly translates to security, without threat.

So, and don't, don't exist anymore. It wa- was disbanded when the Soviet Union fell apart, and, uh, the successor, uh, agencies were... are now the SVR and, and the, uh, FSB. FSB supposedly the equivalent to the FBI, and SVR to CIA. But, uh, the SVR is, is relatively weak, and the FSB has, has taken on a lot of espionage and, um, you know, active measures, and th- they're much bigger and stronger. But the most capable intelligence agency in, in Russia is the, is, is the GRU, military intelligence.

That nobody knows very much about.

That's right. I, when I was in the KGB-

(laughs)

... I had no idea that there was military intelligence. Nobody ever mentioned anything like that. And by the way, I recently had a, uh, the pleasure to g- give a talk at the DIA. When they reached out to me, I didn't know they existed either.

Interesting. Yeah. That, that's always the question. If you want to be an intelligence agency, should the world know anything about you? Because in some sense, you want to create the legend in order to attract, uh, great competent individuals to work for you. But at the same time, you want it to be shrouded in complete mystery. If n- if nobody knows you exist, you might be able-

Right.

... to operate well as an, as an intelligence agency. That, that, that is fascinating. But FSB is the thing that carries the flag-