Jay Bhattacharya: The Case Against Lockdowns | Lex Fridman Podcast #254

The following is a conversation with Jay Bhattacharya, professor of medicine, health policy, and economics at Stanford University. Please allow me to say a few words about lockdowns and the blinding, destructive effects of arrogance on leadership, especially in the space of policy and politics. Jay Bhattacharya is the co-author of the now famous Great Barrington Declaration, a one-page document that, in October 2020, made a case against the effectiveness of lockdowns. Most of this podcast conversation is about the ideas related to this document. And so, let me say a few things here about what troubles me. Those who advocate for lockdowns as a policy often ignore the quiet suffering of millions that it results in, which includes economic pain, loss of jobs that give meaning and pride in the face of uncertainty, the increase in suicide and suicidal ideation, and, in general, the fear and anger that arises from the powerlessness forced onto the populous by the self-proclaimed elites and experts. Many folks whose job is unaffected by the lockdowns talk down to the masses about which path forward is right and which is wrong. What troubles me most is this very lack of empathy among the policymakers for the common man, and, in general, for people unlike themselves. The landscape of suffering is vast and must be fully considered in calculating the response to the pandemic with humility and with rigorous, open-minded scientific debate. Jay and I talked about the email from Francis Collins to Anthony Fauci that called Jay and his two co-authors fringe epidemiologists, and also called for devastating published takedown of their ideas. These words from Francis broke my heart. I understand them. I can even steel man them. But nevertheless, on balance, they show to me a failure of leadership. Leadership in a pandemic is hard, which is why great leaders are remembered by history. They are rare, they stand out, and they give me hope. Also, this whole mess inspires me on my small individual level to do the right thing in the face of conformity, despite the long odds. I talked to Francis Collins, I talked to Albert Bourla, Pfizer CEO. I also talked, and will continue to talk, with people like Jay and other dissenting voices that challenge the mainstream narratives and those in the seats of power. I hope to highlight both the strengths and weaknesses in their ideas, with respect and empathy, but also with guts and skill. The skill part, I hope to improve on over time, and I do believe that conversation and an open mind is the way out of this. And finally, as I've said in the past, I value love and integrity far, far above money, fame, and power. Those latter three are all ephemeral. They slip through the fingers of anyone who tries to hold on, and leave behind an empty shell of a human being. I prefer to die a man who lived by principles that nobody could shake, and a man who added a bit of love to the world. This is the Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, here's my conversation with Jay Bhattacharya. To our best understanding today, how deadly is COVID? Do we have a good measure for- for this very question?