Shannon Curry: Johnny Depp & Amber Heard Trial, Marriage, Dating & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #366

So, contempt is criticism on steroids. This is what John Gottman calls sulfuric acid for love. Nothing will erode a relationship quicker than contempt. Contempt is when you are looking at your partner from a superior position. So, you are eye-rolling, you are name-calling, um, there's a mockery, mocking, even physical mockery, um, imitating them, imitating their voice. Contempt is meant to just take the legs out from your partner, make them feel pathetic, ridiculous, um... And it- it can be abusive, but, um, most people have engaged in contempt at some point in their relationship. Lower level would be sort of the eye-rolling, but that is the biggest predictor of a split.

The following is a conversation with Shannon Curry, a clinical and forensic psychologist who conducts research, therapy, and psychological evaluations pertaining to trauma, violence, and relationships. She received worldwide attention in April of last year by giving a lengthy televised testimony on her psychological evaluation of Amber Heard during the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial. I found her testimony to be an eloquent description of complex psychological concepts and evaluation procedures. So, I reached out for a chat. In person, she was brilliant, funny, thoughtful, and truly kind. I really, really enjoyed this conversation. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Shannon Curry. Charles Bukowski said that "Love is a fog that burns away with the first daylight of reality." I love that quote. Uh, do you think romantic love fades away in this way?

Bukowski.

Uh, does it- does it have to fade?

The truth is that you have all of these chemicals pumping through your body, you're essentially high on heroine in the beginning of a romance, and you're going to have these rose-colored glasses on, everything your partner does is magical, uh, but really, it's the novelty. It's just like going on a vacation, you're fully present, you're just attuned to the magic of another human being moment-to-moment. And then on top of that, you have- you're just flooded with dopamine, so you're high, on drugs, and we can't go on like that. You will die if you are using these kinds of chemicals all the time, all day long. So eventually, our bodies are sort of made to dial it down, we've made it- I mean, we're evolutionary beings. We are doing the same thing we did 200,000 years ago to find a mate, procreate, spend enough time with each other that we have sex a whole bunch of times and make babies. Now, we've changed the rules of the game, we're living, you know, almost til we're 100 years old in some cases, we're making these marriage commitments that last half a century, and, uh, we're expecting (laughs) it to be all because of love, and we're signing these contracts based on how we feel when we're high on these drugs. So, (laughs) the reality is, we know based on the re- and- and I'm also talking about certain Western civilizations here, because as you know, there are arranged marriages, and a lot of times those marriages, if we're looking at longevity, are actually way more satisfied than people who are marrying for love, which logically makes sense. If you're making a decision based on a feeling that is basically based on endorphins and dopamine and oxytocin, I wouldn't sign a contract just because of a feeling, necessary- you know, for 50 years. Whereas an arranged marriage, if you have your elders kind of deciding for you that this partner has a bunch of traits that you're going to appreciate more and more over time, I think there's some wisdom there.