Psychology, Aliens & Averting The Apocalypse - Robert Wright | Modern Wisdom Podcast 338

The quest to be respected is the most natural thing in the world for human beings. We are designed by natural selection to want people to think highly of us, but we weren't designed to live in this (laughs) environment where we are, every day, seeing how much affirmation we're getting from all of these people who don't actually even know us. (wind blows)

How do you go from working on evolutionary psychology, to mindfulness, to politics and the end of the world?

(laughs) I don't know, they seem closely interconnected in my mind, at least. Uh, well, as for evolutionary psychology and mindfulness, uh, that's actually kind of straightforward, I think. I mean, it, you know, I, I ... My view of Buddhism, or at least of kind of Buddhist meditative practice, and kind of the Buddhist prescription for dealing with a human predicament is that it's actually a pretty smart response to the problem posed by human nature, to the way we naturally view things, process information, feel things. And human nature is a product of evolution. I mean, evolutionary psychology is about human nature. So, um, you know, for example, uh, mindfulness can deal with anxiety, and, and, and so the question arises, is why is there anxiety to begin with? And the answer seems to be, uh, we're engineered by natural selection to feel it under certain circumstances, uh, but that doesn't mean that it's always good for us. Uh, and mindfulness gives us a way of dealing with anxiety, and a number of other kind of problems with being human. Um, the end of the world stuff, I mean, you're right. My, like, my latest obsession is this thing I call the Apocalypse Aversion Project. Um, that's long been a concern of mine. It's certainly related to human nature, uh, in the, in the sense that I think, uh, our evolved psychology is, uh, uh, in some ways an obstacle to forming the kind of global community I think we need to form to solve the world's problems, uh, before they get out of hand. And I'm specifically thinking of what is sometimes called the Psychology of Tribalism. That is, those parts of our evolved psychology that can lead us into, uh, pointless and counterproductive arguments and hostilities. Uh, these, uh, this psychology tends to involve cognitive biases, and, and you might say a kind of warped perception of the world. Uh, and so, you know, if, if, if that indeed, uh, if, if this psychology is one thing standing in the way of, um, solving the world's problems, then you can see how mindfulness comes back into the picture. It might help us get our minds in a position where we're, we're, we're better equipped to, uh, to help the civilization survive.

So avoiding the apocalypse, is that a global coordination problem? Is that an individual responsibility?

I would say it's both. I mean, you know, the, uh ... I, uh, wrote a book a while ago called Nonzero. Uh, that was a reference to game theory. A nonzero sum problem is a, is a problem where ... Or a game, a nonzero sum game is a game where there can be a win-win or a lose-lose outcome. Doesn't have to be a win-lose, uh, uh, outcome. And one thing I said near the end of that is that the world, you know, more and more, uh, nations face nonzero sum challenges. That is to say, uh, problems where they can both come out ahead, or many nations can together come out ahead, like avoiding nuclear war. That's a good example. Nuclear weapons create a radically nonzero sum situation. Nuclear war would be bad for everybody, uh, and avoiding it is good for everybody. And I was just saying there are more and more problems like this. Climate change is one. Uh, various environmental problems like overfishing the seas, uh, various arms control problems, uh, bio-weapons. Uh, so on the one hand, yes, it's a political challenge that nations, uh, could cooperate to address, but on the other hand, uh, there is a, a dimension of individual psychology, because if you ask, "Well, why aren't nations, uh, in some cases getting along well enough to cooperate?" Uh, sometimes at least I think the answer is, you know, the human psychology, uh, it, it ... I wouldn't say it's necessarily kind of the fault of a bunch of individual, uh, Americans, say, that they're not on better terms with various nations, but it is true that, that individual psychology makes us susceptible to politicians who want to manipulate us and make us, uh, feel more fear of another nation than maybe is warranted, and, and things like that. So yeah, I see, I see it as, as both in answer to that question. It's a, it's a grassroots problem of individual psychology, and, and I- I'd like to think of ways to get people more mobilized, uh, to address the problem at the individual level, with an eye to the, the global goal. Uh, a- and one, one asset in that regard, I mean, one, one way to get people interested in this, is that I do think that, uh, addressing the psychological obstacles to global cooperation, uh, is also a way to become a happier person. Uh, I, I think, you know, these are ... I- i- we're not-... uh, I, I, you know, I don't think we're made happy when we are, um, you know, whipped up into a state of like tribalistic, uh, frenzy, you know, and, and, and, and go on social media and find people to hate. I mean, uh, there is a sense in which that must be gratifying, or we wouldn't do it y- maybe. But, uh, I think in the long run, um, you know, we can be happier and more deeply happy if we avoid some of these pitfalls.