Fuse CEO Alan Chang: The Revolut Playbook of Speed & Ownership, Why Founders Aren’t Ambitious Enough

Alan Chang 0:00 If you have a gun pointed to your head today, would you have done more? If the answer is yes, that means you're not doing a good job. (camera whooshing)

Harry Stebbings 0:07 Allen is the co-founder and CEO of Fuse Energy. Like Netflix beat incumbents to own media, Revolut beat incumbents to own banking, Fuse will beat incumbents to own energy.

Alan Chang 0:18 There's nothing wrong with wanting work/life balance, but I think the only way to build a generational company is very, very strong work ethic. I just don't see any other way to do it. If you're a leader of an area in the company, excuses don't matter. If you succeed, you get all the praise. If you fail, you get all the blame, and it does not matter why you fail. We increased our revenue 10X every year since inception. First year was £2 million, second year was 20, and then this year, we're going to end at over £200 million.

Harry Stebbings 0:41 You can't 10X again. (wind blowing) Ready to go? (upbeat music) Allen, dude, I am so looking forward to this. So I, I have you to thank for hiring my chief of staff, 'cause we were sitting in a cocktail bar in London and you were helping me hire, and I was like then, "Holy shit, this guy is brilliant and I need to do a show with him." That was three years ago. So thank you so much for doing this with me.

Alan Chang 1:19 Yeah, thanks for having me.

Harry Stebbings 1:20 Dude, I think a really interesting one to start with is you're a fricking machine, and I just want to understand, when we look at, like, transformative moments, one of the most transformative early moments for you was getting the job with Nick and with Revolut. Can you just take me to that? And Sacre actually said I had to ask this one. He was like, "You got to start with how he actually got the job." How did you get the job with Nick, and what did that look like?

Alan Chang 1:43 Yeah, so at the time, I just, you know, I, I, I had just graduated and, uh, I was just perusing on the, on the Facebook group, like it was called London Startups, and I saw this job post, um, Revolut, and I was like, "Okay, I have no idea what this company does, uh, but it's looking for fresh grads." I said, "Okay." I applied, and Nick replied within five minutes. And I was like, "Oh, wow, that's, that's very quick." And then he asked me to come for a face-to-face interview the next day. So I came for an interview and he asked me a bunch of physics questions. I was like, you know, I, I didn't realize I was look- I was applying for a physics job. (laughs) Um, and he offered m- me a role, you know, right after the interview. I said yes, and that was it. That was like, uh, the fastest interview process I've ev- I've ever had.

Harry Stebbings 2:31 What was the position, and what size and scale was Revolut then?

Alan Chang 2:35 Yeah, so at the time, in terms of full-time, it was Nick, Vlad, and two other full-time engineers, and that was it. So it was just hot desking. And the job was just, and it was called operations analyst, um, but effectively, the first three months, was doing customer support.

Harry Stebbings 2:57 (laughs) When did you realize that this was going to be a massive, $100 billion company?

Alan Chang 3:05 So at the time, Revolut was, uh, in a co-working space called Level39.

Harry Stebbings 3:09 Yeah, (laughs) I remember this.

Alan Chang 3:11 Yeah, and, uh, so Level39 is, yeah, for those who don't know, it's, it's basically a giant, yeah, uh, startup co-working space with maybe over 200 startups. And Revolut was the only team that worked past 7:00 PM on the weekday. So after 7:00 PM, the whole floor is dead. Uh, it was also the only team that worked on the weekends. So when I realized, like, okay, when I realized that, you know, I knew th- there was something special. The second moment was, uh, I asked Nick, like, "What's, what's your ambition? Like, what, what keeps you motivated?" And at the time, he's, you know, worth quite a bit of money already, so, you know, what, what keeps him, what, what drives him, right? And he told me he wants to beat JPMorgan. So that's the second moment I realized, you know, this is going to be a massive company.

Harry Stebbings 4:02 What do you think you guys did really right really early on that led to such success early?

Alan Chang 4:09 I think the... So at the time wh- when we got started, there were basically three players, all right? Um, there was Revolut, Monzo, and N26.

Harry Stebbings 4:18 Yeah.

Alan Chang 4:19 Um, and for the first two years, at least from the outside, it feels like neck to neck, right? It wasn't clear, uh, who the winner was. But for me, it was crystal clear, right? It was crystal clear who was going to win. And, and the reason why is because it's just the team's ambition and execution, right? 'cause ultimately, if you, if you ask the same teams at the time, like, basically their product roadmap, almost everyone would tell you basically the same, right? There wasn't any differentiation in product roadmap. Um, but it, what differentiate between, you know, us and everyone else was basically the ambition and the speed of execution. I think

Alan Chang 4:58 that was it.

Harry Stebbings 4:59 How do you move so fast? What is your biggest lessons on how to create speed of execution within teams? I want this internally. Y- y- you've met my team here. You see it. How do I encourage this urgency and speed of execution internally, and how do you do it?

Alan Chang 5:13 Yeah, so I think, uh, have small teams, um, yeah, small teams operating in their independent units, and give them very clear goals, and let them, let them execute. And you know, what you should do is monitor those teams, and if they do well, let them be. If they don't do well, replace the team.

Harry Stebbings 5:35 What did you learn from Nick about managing people and people performance?

Alan Chang 5:40 It's all about results. Uh, like I think, I think Nick's make this, made this analogy before, but, um, there are three types of people in the world. There are, there are people who can self-identify the target and shoot and hit the goal, then there are people who can't identify targets, but if you point, they shoot and they hit the goal, and then the third type of people, which is neither, right? You want to maximize the first and second...... group of people, um, and you want ideally the first and second type of people leading teams, right? Um, and basically the throughput of your company is basically a sum of the number of people in the first and second bucket.

Harry Stebbings 6:24 When you bring those people together and you grow very fast, what was the most significant breaking moment in the early Revolut days and what did you learn and take from it?

Alan Chang 6:35 Yeah. So I- I'll say the get shit done culture really, um, I, I think it's, it's the best way to build something great very, very fast, um, and it's something I, I, I took on board, uh, but I even amped it up, uh, even more. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 6:56 How do you amp it up more?

Alan Chang 6:58 I think just getting, putting even more intensity, right? Just driving a lot of urgency within the company, like always keep people on their toes, like-

Harry Stebbings 7:07 How do you k- I'm sorry. I, I am asking you because I'm, I'm trying to learn from you. (laughs)

Alan Chang 7:11 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 7:11 How do you, like, always keep people on their toes? Is it like pushing them in terms of their goals? Is it pushing them in terms of the hours and the work and the intensity? Is it... Wh- what, what is it?

Alan Chang 7:20 Oh, in terms of, uh, in terms of results, right, or, or lack thereof, right? So we, I always emphasize like, "We're, we're not moving fast enough. Um, we could be doing more but we're not." You know, for example, like I, I told our team last year our execution was maybe 4 out of 10, right? And we need to get a 10, 10 out of 10 and we're not passing.

Harry Stebbings 7:41 What was the problem with that and how did you fix it?

Alan Chang 7:43 Like, the problem was speed of execution, right? Like, we, we were too slow. We wanted to ship a bunch of things and we, we didn't, right? Things were delayed.

Harry Stebbings 7:53 When were you off target in execution with Revolut and what did you learn from that?

Alan Chang 7:58 I think we were off execution maybe every year. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 8:01 (laughs)

Alan Chang 8:02 Um, because you could be... I think, I think our mindset should be... I think, I don't think number one is enough. I think you need to be your best versions of yourself, right? So you always need to review, okay, in the past week, in the past month, what kind of, what could I have, what could I have done better, right? Or, and like, maybe a, maybe a more extreme analogy, right? Um, like I used to ask my team, right, at, at Rev, "If you had a po- if you have a gun pointed to your head today, would you have done more?" If the answer is yes, that means you're not doing

Alan Chang 8:35 a good job.

Harry Stebbings 8:35 There will be people who say, "I also have a family. I also have other parts of my life."

Alan Chang 8:42 Mm.

Harry Stebbings 8:42 And I get this a lot, you, I'm, I'm sure you've probably seen-

Alan Chang 8:44 Mm.

Harry Stebbings 8:44 ... because you're socially aware, but like, 996 I've been chastised for-

Alan Chang 8:49 Mm.

Harry Stebbings 8:49 ... um, actually including by some of your investors at Balderson, um, interesting, uh, who would say, "It's not work-life balance." And I could always say, "Yes, I could have done more but I have other parts of my life."

Alan Chang 9:00 Mm.

Harry Stebbings 9:00 How do you respond to them?

Alan Chang 9:02 Uh, don't join Fuse. That's okay. (laughs) Like, I, I, I have totally re- I have total respect for people who want, uh, you know, like a nine to five job, right? Like, there's nothing wrong with wanting work, work/life balance. Um, but I think the only way to build a generational company is like, you know, very, very strong work ethic. I, I, I just don't see any other way to do it.

Harry Stebbings 9:23 When you look back now, Revolut is known for its intense culture as well.

Alan Chang 9:28 Mm.

Harry Stebbings 9:28 It's where I think you've learnt a lot of this. (laughs) Where was the Revolut culture amazing that you've really taken from it and where was it, actually, I'm glad that we left that behind and it wasn't helpful?

Alan Chang 9:41 Yeah. I think Revolut's culture of never settle, like in terms of speed and quality, is something I, you know, took over. Like, like, Revolut had a lot of cultural values and, and to be honest, like, I think it was a bit too many for me. I always forget all of them. But as-

Harry Stebbings 9:56 How, how many does it have?

Alan Chang 9:58 Uh, from memory it's six. Um...

Harry Stebbings 9:59 Okay. How many should you have?

Alan Chang 10:02 I think one. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 10:03 What's your one cultural value?

Alan Chang 10:04 So, never settle. It's the one that resonated with, with me the most.

Harry Stebbings 10:08 Can I ask, do you apply that to all parts of life? And what I mean by that is, you know, one of, one of the heads of a firm recently said to me, and it's one of the biggest firms in the world but I do want to keep this one private because otherwise they'll fucking kill me, they said, "How you do anything is how you do everything." Like, "If we have mistakes in a memo, that says that we're not thinking clearly and we're not putting the work in." And I actually didn't really agree with that. I think you have to pick your battles and choose where to be all in. How do you think about that, never settle? Because sometimes it's okay to settle on 80% for a junior account manager in whatever. Do you know what I mean?

Alan Chang 10:43 I, I agree with that, yeah. I think you have to pick your battles, for sure. Ultimately, like, you need to identify the most important roles in the company and never settle on those roles. But the roles that matter less, I think it's perfectly okay to

Alan Chang 10:56 settle.

Harry Stebbings 10:56 Can I ask you, when you were building Revolut with Nick and the team, what was your biggest disagreement with Nick and, and how did that play out?

Alan Chang 11:04 I'll say the overuse of KPIs because ultimately there are things you should measure and, you know, which tells you the health of that team, how well they're doing, and you should 100% do that. But then once you start incentivizing against that, teams find ways to game it. And I think Nick is a super numbers driven guy, right, and I think, uh, that work, work well, you know, worked very well in, in, in, in, in, in a large part. But I would say, not everything should be a KPI.

Harry Stebbings 11:47 What shouldn't be a KPI and what should and how do you determine that?

Alan Chang 11:51 I mean, like, e- like when you start incentivizing a metric, we need to think about, okay, what are the second order of consequences? Right? Let's take a very simple example. Let's say, um, let's take a re- a re- a recruiter, right? If you give a KPI to a recruiter, um, let's say on hires per month, what they might start to, start to do, right, because their bonus depends on it, is try to convince hiring managers to lower the talent bar.And I've seen that happen before. Uh, but that's actually not what the company wants, right? What the company wants is actually keep the talent bar high. So instead they try, you know, you know, some recruiters that really want to chase a bonus is they, they try and negotiate with hiring managers, try and convince them, "This is the best you're going to find. You're not going to find, you're not going to find someone better," et cetera, et cetera.

Harry Stebbings 12:37 When we look at outcomes, I think so much of Revolut's success has come from product diversification and the testing that you guys did internally. When I interviewed Nick, the thing that struck me was, he said about the 26 kind of product, uh, experiments were being run internally at the same time. That was a really interesting way to approach company building to me that no one had ever talked to me about before. What did you learn from that and what are your takeaways from seeing that you, that you've applied to Fuse?

Alan Chang 13:05 Yeah, I think product diversification, diversification is so important. I mean, let me give you, like give you, let me give you like one, one example of why that was so important. So, like during the COVID lockdowns, um, the interchange revenue, so, you know, revenue from people spending on cards, e- especially abroad, went basically near zero, right? However, um, there was a lot of stimulus checks, right, from, from the COVID times and the stock market was booming, right, and the crypto market was booming. So whilst the interchange revenue went down, the, you know, trading revenue went up. So it kind of offset each other. Um, so that was a great example where diversification actually helped make the company's revenues much more

Alan Chang 13:50 resilient.

Harry Stebbings 13:51 Do you think you should have gone for the banking license earlier? Nick's publicly said that he thinks he should have done, but when you look there, I think your product diversification was enabled by your not having the banking license earlier where Monzo did.

Alan Chang 14:02 Actually, I think, uh, the product diversification could have happened even if Revolut got a banking license earlier. I think Nick is totally right. Uh, the, the issue with... The issue is like the bigger you get, I guess the more scared the regulators are of you. Because if you succeed, they have no upside. They don't get a bon- bigger bonus. But if you fail, like, they might lose their jobs. So it's ultimately like, you know, they're, they're incentivized to be risk averse as opposed to risk neutral, right? Whereas what's best for the economy is actually risk neutral regulators.

Harry Stebbings 14:38 When was the first time that you really felt incumbents and regulators were aware of how successful you were becoming?

Alan Chang 14:46 I still don't think they realize. I still don't think they, the incumbents, uh, have woken, woken up yet.

Harry Stebbings 14:52 Oh dude, they have.

Alan Chang 14:53 They have?

Harry Stebbings 14:54 They have. I'm sorry, I spoke at one of the incumbent's, um, events recently and like pretty much the only thing that was discussed at their away day is Revolut.

Alan Chang 15:05 But what have they done about it?

Harry Stebbings 15:07 Well, the trouble is they can't, and that's why you bet long on Revolut. That's why I, I, I would like, and I am trying to buy every fucking Revolut share I can at, at a good price (laughs) because honestly, uh, the structures, the comp bands that they have, the policies that they have means that they can't do it.

Alan Chang 15:23 Hmm.

Harry Stebbings 15:24 It's, it's almost like they know the challenge, but they are unable to fight against it.

Alan Chang 15:29 Hmm.

Harry Stebbings 15:30 And no one has ownership. It's a, it's a 100-year-old bank, has a hired CEO who's been paid five million a year for, you know, five years. He honestly, if he bounces, he'll go back to Marbella to the family home and it'll be fine. (laughs)

Alan Chang 15:44 Yeah, maybe. I guess talking about it and doing something about it is very different. Um, but yeah, I get your point.

Harry Stebbings 15:51 Do you think it's important to have an enemy in a startup? Like whether it's Revolut and banks, whether it's Fuse and, you know, traditional incumbents. Is that important?

Alan Chang 16:01 I think it's important to have a common goal. So like for example, at Fuse, our common goal is like no trade-offs. So if you think about, you know, looking back like last 20 years, right? Like this like green movement, right, of, you know, basically telling people to use less, right? So you, you had politicians that says, "You shouldn't... You should drive less to work. You should turn heating on less often. You should fly less. You should do, you know, less of everything," right? Um, in order to save the environment. Like, and then, and then you have, you know, energy prices slowly creeping up over, over the last 20 years as well. Um, I think it's like, it's bas- basically trade-offs, and I think that's totally wrong, right? Like it's actually moving in the complete opposite direction, right? It's, we should be using more energy. There's actually a very strong correlation between how much energy you use per capita and quality of life, right? And, and if you look at the Americans, right, the Americans use, you know, almost eight times more energy than Europeans and, and look at the quality of life, right?

Harry Stebbings 17:08 Please tell me you're not saying the American quality of life is better than ours.

Alan Chang 17:12 For sure, right? Like think about the, um, average American home, right? They have a large detou- detached house, big driveway, several cars, big backyard, maybe a swimming pool, maybe a sauna, and maybe a jacuzzi, right? And that's like, you know, middle class. Like we're not talking about like ultra-wealthy Americans. Even if you look at like the wealthy, you know, Brits living in London, right?

Harry Stebbings 17:37 But I mean that, but that's bluntly built on a, an infrastructure of credit and borrowing that they are unable to afford, which you see in bluntly debt and borrowing levels in the US on the consumer side being higher than they've ever been. Wh- whilst at the same time, respectfully dude, their food supply chain is completely fucked unless you're on either coast and the quality of their food is shit and manufactured.

Alan Chang 17:58 Uh, that's, that's also true, but if you look at the average cost of a American home, it's, uh, relatively affordable.

Harry Stebbings 18:04 So what do we take away from that?

Alan Chang 18:05 I think the takeaway is like you can, you can have it all three ways, right? You can have low cost energy, you can have, uh, more energy, and you can have lower carbon energy at the same time.

Harry Stebbings 18:18 People often talk about the energy crisis that we're in today, and energy is now one of the hottest topics.

Alan Chang 18:23 Mm.

Harry Stebbings 18:25 When people say like, you know, "Uh, it's a quarter to midnight, it's a minute to midnight," how close are we to an energy crisis? Is it a minute to midnight? Are we far away? What does that look like?

Alan Chang 18:36 I think we're, I think we're in a energy crisis already. In, in the whole developed economies, UK is in the deepest trouble. So if you look at energy consumption per capita in the last 25 years, UK has dropped 25%. In US, it's been flat. In China, in the same period of time, it's gone up by seven times. Seven times, in the same period of time. Just think about that. Um, and energy prices have gone up, price volatility has gone up. Um, so everything is trending the wrong direction.

Harry Stebbings 19:14 And what's the cause of that? Can you just help me understand? You know, I was talking to one of the biggest, um, kind of data infrastructure providers the other day. Uh, and they were like, "Listen, the reason we're not in the UK is because like as a percentage of revenue, energy is 16% of our revenues in the UK, whereas comparatively elsewhere, it's 3 to 4%." Why is that? Why are we so bad?

Alan Chang 19:33 Two reasons. Uh, the first reason is over-regulation. There is, it's very hard to build anything in the UK, like physical or otherwise. Um, let me give you an example, right? Um, one of the ... So we were trying to build a power plant in the UK. And, you know, one of the things council have, uh, complete discretion over is, you know, planning, especially around environmental impact. So we had to do, you know, wintering bird surveys, right, over several winters. So you hire ... So how that works is you hire a guy with a clipboard, and they count number of birds in the winter. And until that survey is done, you can't build. So that's one example where, you know, it's so hard to build something physical in Britain. Um, and right now, I can tell you, um, if you speak to any of the, you know, infra capital providers, um, they want to deploy a lot of capital to building infrastructure. So the problem is not capital. The problem is it's very, very hard to build. So that's the first reason. The second reason I would say is the quality of companies operating in this space is not very sophisticated. Like a lot of these energy, existing energy companies, they are not technology-driven at all. They're very old-school, still pen-and-paper, spreadsheet-based companies, um, that are incredibly inefficient. Now, there's not much I can do about regulation, but I think we can, for sure, build the best version of what, uh, you know, best energy company using the latest technology.

Harry Stebbings 21:13 Who is in charge of the regulation? Is this Ed Miliband in the energy?

Alan Chang 21:17 Yeah, it's, it's Ofgem, it's DESNZ. Um, so yeah, I guess, uh-

Harry Stebbings 21:22 A- and when we compare that to the US, do they not have the same regulatory compliance issues that, say, California does, which is why they failed so woefully on their expansion of the railway systems that they wanted to build out?

Alan Chang 21:33 Yeah, I think, uh, to be clear, I think US also share a lot of the similar problems-

Harry Stebbings 21:37 Yeah.

Alan Chang 21:37 ... um, to the UK, to a lesser extent, and also depends on what, what state are you talking about. For example, in state of Texas, right, where, you know, lot of people say it's the home of energy, it's much easier to build compared to the UK.

Harry Stebbings 21:51 When you think about like energy, the energy crisis today, what does no one know that everyone should know? I'm very naive on energy. It's, it's not my business.

Alan Chang 22:02 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 22:02 It's not where we invest, traditionally.

Alan Chang 22:03 So first of all, uh, there's no such thing as 100% renewable. So just think about, you know, when sun is shining, uh, solar power, uh, solar is generating. And obviously, sun is not shining all the time. And for wind, it's the same, right? When wind is blowing, you get wind energy, right, wind power. Uh, however, they are extremely correlated to each other. What that means is even if you over-build sun and wind, it's never possible to cover 100% of the time, um, to be 100% renewable because they're highly correlated, right? So in certain hours, you get abundant of solar and wind energy, but certain hours, you basically get zer- near zero energy, even if you over-build. Now, you can argue, okay, you can put storage in, but right now, most batteries are sub two hours, right? So they actually, batteries are so, way too expensive, um, for us to use to store, you know, you know, days or even weeks without, you know, solar and wind energy. So any energy company that's claiming they're 100% renewable is a, it is, is a complete lie, right? They are simply buying renewable certificates, right, to claim they're 100% renewable, and it's completely false. Just to give you, let me give you, let me give you like a proof point of why, why, why this is completely false. When, when we, when we had the, when Russia invaded Ukraine, the gas prices went shot up, but the energy companies are offering 100% renewable, energy tariffs also went up. (laughs) How's that possible if it's 100% renewable, right? I mean, that's the first thing. Second thing most people don't understand is power is not fungible across time and space. So you have a lot of power, for example, wind power, in north of Scotland that are being told to turn off because the power is not getting to where it needs to be. So people are not using energy when the wind is blowing, right, and it's also not going to where it needs to be, which is, you know, the big demand centers like, like London, because the grid is not set up to do that. So yeah, these are two biggest misconceptions in energy, I would say.

Harry Stebbings 24:22 If you were in charge of the UK's energy policy program, what would you do differently that we're not doing today?

Alan Chang 24:30 I would deregulate building anything physical. I would make it so easy for anyone to build. Number two is I would delete all subsidies of any kind.

Harry Stebbings 24:46 Why?

Alan Chang 24:47 Because the goal for energy should be as low-cost as possible. A subsidy basically means it's actually not profitable to build this project, but because there's a subsidy, it's now profitable and who, who, who ... Think about it. Who takes that burden of that higher energy cost? It's ultimately the rate payers, right? It's, it's you and I. It's everyone. So actually, it doesn't make sense. So I would delete all subsidies and let the free market do its thing. If it's profitable to build it, people will build it. If it's not,

Alan Chang 25:20 don't.

Harry Stebbings 25:21 When we look at energy regulations, infrastructure, um, policy, which country do you think stands out as an exemplary that we should follow?

Alan Chang 25:30 China.

Harry Stebbings 25:31 Why is that?

Alan Chang 25:33 Just look at the energy price, right? So like, if you look at the, what the Brits and Europeans pay in terms of, you know, cost per kilowatt hour, it's roughly 25 to 30 dollar cents. In the US is 10 to 15 dollar cents. In China, it's eight dollar cents. And if you look at energy per capita, right, uh, US basically hasn't grown in the last 25 years. It's been flat. In China, it's gone up by seven times, and if you look at the build-up in China, right, like they have truly vertically integrated energy companies, like run by the state from generation to the grid, um, and, and distribution. And they built ... You know, whilst, you know, in the West, like there are people debating, "Oh, is renewables better? Is, you know, oil and gas better?" You know, they're, then there's like, it, it's becoming like a very political thing. In China, they built everything, right? In China, they deploy more solar than the, all Western economies combined. In China, they deployed more gas, right, more coal, (laughs) more grid. They've laid more cables and grid than all Western economies combined. So they're just building everything. Like they're just thinking, "Okay. We need to keep ..." Like clearly, they understand the importance of energy costs and they're just building everything. They're just ... Basically, it's common sense, right? So I, I think that's the, I think that's the, yeah, model economy we, we should, we should, we should follow for energy policy.

Harry Stebbings 27:05 Do you stand by the belief that, yeah, we're all in the same WhatsApp groups and the s-, and everyone says, "Ah, but the level of talent coming out of Imperial and Cambridge and Oxford, absolutely we can parallel the US." Do you stand by that, on talent levels in the UK?

Alan Chang 27:20 I think talent levels in the UK is good. Like ul- ultimately, higher education, like I, I personally received higher education in the UK, um, and I think it's, it's pretty good. Like I, I, I, I think it's world-class and, and ultimately, this is the key ingredient to, to build, you know, anything successful. So I do, I do, like although I'm short-term, I'm bearish on the UK, but long-term, I'm, I'm bullish.

Harry Stebbings 27:48 What makes you bearish right now on the UK?

Alan Chang 27:51 The current government's h- heading in the wrong direction.

Harry Stebbings 27:54 Why?

Alan Chang 27:55 As I said, right, we need deep deregulation so it's easier to build, and you know, there's a lot of talk about growth, but it's just talk and no action.

Harry Stebbings 28:08 I, respectfully, I don't know how you can be bearish in the short term and bullish in the long term. Like when you look at the kind of cyclical, structural decline that we're heading into, that is multi-decade actually and it's very difficult to reverse out of. So with respect, I don't know how you can be long-term bullish but short-term bearish.

Alan Chang 28:26 I think a lot of people with common sense are realizing we're in a bad situation. And what makes me optimistic is because when I speak to people, there is some common sense, right? And hopefully, those people with common sense will, you know, elect a, a more sensible government in the future that will do the right thing.

Harry Stebbings 28:48 With respect, do you think that's actually a fair (laughs) assessment though? I mean, right now, it looks like Nigel Farage and Reform will be that government, and actually, when you look at populous and, and the UK populous, transparently, it's, it, it's not the intellectual Matt Clifford that is the average person on the street.

Alan Chang 29:04 I think what's key is the next government, 'cause u- ultimately, I think deregulation is ... You just need the will, like a s- very, very strong will to do it. And I think as long as, you know, the following governments can attract a top team around them and being advised the right, you know, regulations to look at and, and then delete or reform, I think, uh, I think we could do it.

Harry Stebbings 29:38 Do you feel you have a political party home today? I feel kind of politically lost, if I'm honest, which is like I used to be a, a kind of Conservative. Now I don't feel any particular allegiance to the Conservatives. I'm the ????? to be honest. But I don't feel particularly strong belief in Nigel Farage and Reform. Uh, I think Labor's terrible, but I don't feel like I have a political home like I used to.

Alan Chang 30:01 I mean, for me, I, I want to make sure there are people who have, who are competent to, to lead the country, right? I want to make sure the most competent individuals are, are leading the countries regardless of party.

Harry Stebbings 30:16 Who would you most like to see?

Alan Chang 30:17 Matt Clifford is a pretty good choice. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 30:21 (laughs)

Alan Chang 30:21 Um, but yeah, I, I, I, yeah. I, I don't think there is ... Yeah. I, I, I, I'm probably in the same camp as

Alan Chang 30:28 you for now.

Harry Stebbings 30:28 We said about talent in the UK.One thing that's always very hard with talent is detecting it, and part of that is the interview process. One of the big, and you've helped me again, you know, hire my chief of staff even. When you look at green flags in interview processes that excite you, what are some of the best signals that one can give in an interview process?

Alan Chang 30:49 Yeah. O- obviously beyond the, you know, usual skill sets, you know, which we, we hire for that role. Um, basically when I, when I explain to the candidate, you know, about what we're trying to build, uh, build at Fuse, our ambitions, how we want to be a number one energy company in the world, and the work, the hard work that it requires to build it, you know, you want to like ... What I want to, like what I usually see is like the body language, right, um, as well as their facial expression. Like are they leaning in (laughs) or they're leaning out? And you want to be hiring people who are leaning in.

Harry Stebbings 31:23 I don't like bouncers either. You know when you look at someone's CV and it's like one year, one year, one year, one year.

Alan Chang 31:28 Yeah. That's, that's also not great.

Harry Stebbings 31:30 Yeah. Anything else where you're like, "Uh, not great." Fluffy CVs for me.

Alan Chang 31:34 (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 31:34 Like okay, you're hiring a marketing manager. I want to see, "I increased MQLs by 38%. I did that through these three core channels. I learned this about Facebook advertising, but then it saturated when we hit expand." I'm like, "Ooh, very detailed, like clear attribution-led data."

Alan Chang 31:50 I, I would say very long CVs.

Harry Stebbings 31:53 Is good?

Alan Chang 31:54 Is bad.

Harry Stebbings 31:55 Okay. It should be like a page? Like what should it be?

Alan Chang 31:57 Yeah, I think it should be maximum a page. Like if Elon Musk can fill, put his CV in one page, so could you. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 32:05 (laughs)

Alan Chang 32:05 Like I think, um ... Yeah, it reminds me of like, you know like your first ever CV, right, and you're trying to fill the page and you couldn't think of anything to put. And you've got to like put your under like special skills, like Microsoft Word.

Harry Stebbings 32:18 (laughs)

Alan Chang 32:20 It's got that type of vibe, right?

Harry Stebbings 32:21 Professional Tiddlywinks player.

Alan Chang 32:23 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 32:23 Other hobbies, skiing, art. I fucking hate art. (laughs)

Alan Chang 32:27 Yeah. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 32:27 I totally agree with you. Um, okay. So we have that. How do you structure your hiring process? I'm, I'm always looking to be better at hiring. How do you structure it, and what would be your biggest advice to me on how I should optimize mine?

Alan Chang 32:42 Yeah, I think first define the skillsets you, you need, right? So for example, for a software engineer that could be, uh, coding skills, uh, system design, problem-solving, um, and as well as culture fit. So we basically find, okay, who is the best coder in the company? Who is the best at system design? And then we assign those people to assess those skills individually, and then at the end of the process they kind of gets a grade, right, for every single step. Um, and if they are above a certain threshold, then we, we, we offer, and that's also how we decide on, you know, how, how much we offer, right? So as a company, we don't actually use any comp bands. We simply look at the grades and the higher the grade, the higher our bid, because ultimately we're buying skills.

Harry Stebbings 33:32 Wow, so, sorry, this is really interesting. So you will essentially say, "Okay, we are looking for a software engineer and we need, um ..." I don't know, choose your language, whatever you're going for. "We need X language." And then you will rank, rank them out of ten on that one core skill, and then you will assign them a salary as a result of that.

Alan Chang 33:48 Yeah, a- actually we don't even look at language. So although our whole backend is in Python, um, we, we will hire any backend developer even if they know nothing about Python. So it's a coding challenge in the language of their choice. Um, it's system design which is about how you architect the whole system. Uh, problem-solving which is have they successfully solved the problem in the past, whatever that is. Uh, as well as culture fit, right? And basically if they get, let's say, straight As in every single one, we bid a very, very high offer.

Harry Stebbings 34:23 Okay. Totally get that. They are a seven out of ten. Should you just not hire them? Like should it not be like an all-in, we should give them the top whack or don't hire them at all?

Alan Chang 34:36 Yeah, so our, our threshold is, uh, we will hire anything above a B. So if you get straight Bs, you'll still get an offer, but the offer will be much lower and it could be below what you're making today. And you know, if you have a better offer elsewhere, like good luck to you.

Harry Stebbings 34:56 Why would you do that? That feels like to me like in venture we'd say that's like a meh deal.

Alan Chang 35:01 Like typically a B is still pretty good, (laughs) right? A is like exceptional. So a B is like this is where we've ... where the bar is, right? And I would say like that you can still be a very solid performer if you're, if you're a B. But if you're a straight ... The difference between a straight B candidate and a straight A candidate is simply compensation, right? And for straight A candidates, we have made offers that are, you know, much higher than what they make today. And even if we know that, that's okay because we want to make sure we're a no-brainer for you, such that you will never think about leaving.

Harry Stebbings 35:33 How fast do you know when someone's not very good?

Alan Chang 35:40 A month, two months, max.

Harry Stebbings 35:41 Do you pull the cord that quick?

Alan Chang 35:43 We always give them a v- a verbal warning, warning first.

Harry Stebbings 35:47 When you give a PIP, does it ever actually get better?

Alan Chang 35:51 Uh, well, we don't really have formal PIPs, right? I don't believe in PIPs.

Harry Stebbings 35:55 Why?

Alan Chang 35:55 I think it's a waste of time. Like just give them warning, right? 'Cause I think ... Like I think, I think, uh, most people we hire, they're already self-aware, right, of where they fall short. Even before we have the verbal warning, they kind of know they're falling short already. And yeah, basically the formal warning is simply, "Look, you have one m- we're giving you one more chance. If you don't improve, you're out."

Harry Stebbings 36:22 When you look back when you made a mis-hire, what did you not see that you should have seen?

Alan Chang 36:29 I used to overvalue IQ.... and have, didn't, didn't, uh, put enough weighting on deeply caring.

Harry Stebbings 36:39 Uh, can you explain that?

Alan Chang 36:41 Yeah. So what you want to do is hire someone who really deeply cares about the company and about the mission, right? Someone who would, you know, stay up late, right, to fix this bug, right, or stay over the weekend, um, to get this new feature shipped. Even if you hire someone very, very intelligent, right, but they just don't care, it's also not going to work out.

Harry Stebbings 37:09 Is that not a game of luck in some ways? When you hire, when you hire someone, you've never met them before, they're young, you have very little data on them, you don't actually know if they're going to give it the all and work through Christmas to get that deal done, to get that project off the line. Is it not a game of luck?

Alan Chang 37:26 Um, I, I would say it's, it's, it's certainly not a game of luck. You, there are, there are questions you can ask. So I usually pitch them, pitch them about the company, telling, "Okay, like, we want to be a number one engine company, blah, blah, blah," right? Uh, and then I, I, I explain to them, "Look, you have many, many choices," right? "You're obviously a very, very talented engineer. You have many choices. You can work at any startup you want, any tech company you want. Like, are you really sure this is what you want to do," right? "It's going to be very tough. Um, there'll be tough times. Um, you know, you have to balance, constantly balance between shipping new features, fixing bugs, um, increasing, uh, improving scalability of the platform. Like, like, why do you want to do this yourself? Like, why, are you sure you want to do this?" Right? And if they say, "Oh, I'm not sure. Depends on the pay," blah, blah, blah, that means they're not up for it. But if they lean in and they tell you, "Okay, I've been so bored at my corporate job, I've been, this is something I've been looking for, you know, for a very long time, like, I'm in," then you know, right? Now, obviously they can lie, right, but most pe- I would say from my experience, they don't.

Harry Stebbings 38:38 Any big fl- red flags around people and their title expectations? "I want to come in but I want to be a head of product." Is that okay? Or is it a, "No, no. You come in and earn the right"? Any lessons around title and how they feel about title?

Alan Chang 38:53 Yeah, we've never given a head of position to anyone we've hired. We've o- we've, we've only given to it base- based on performance.

Harry Stebbings 39:03 In t- in terms of internal promotion?

Alan Chang 39:05 Yes.

Harry Stebbings 39:05 Okay. Right. Got you. Um, any on salary where it's like, "Hey, listen, um, I'm being paid X at my current job. I need that to make this worth my time"?

Alan Chang 39:17 Actually, for us, uh, their expectations don't really matter. It's about, um, their performance, either interview performance or performance in the company. And we will pay you top of market if you perform

Alan Chang 39:31 very well.

Harry Stebbings 39:32 What non-obvious behavior do you not tolerate even if they're really high performers?

Alan Chang 39:39 So I remember, back when I was at Revolut, um, I was explaining to Nick. I actually forgot what, what, what it was but, you know, I failed at something, and I was ex- trying to explain to him why I failed. Then Nick sent me this article, right? It was about Jobs, um, explaining the difference between a, a janitor and a VP. So the story goes, if the janitor fails to collect the trash because the locks on the office was changed, Jobs would say, "Okay, that's irritating, but that's acceptable because you're the janitor." Somewhere between a janitor and the VP, reasons stop mattering. So every single time when one of the leaders at Fuse explains to me why they failed and they couldn't, couldn't hit a certain goal, I send them this article.

Harry Stebbings 40:33 (laughs) So can you just help me understand what the takeaway from that is? It's like, "You know what? It doesn't fucking matter why you failed. The point is you failed in this fashion."

Alan Chang 40:42 Correct, correct.

Harry Stebbings 40:43 What do you take from that? Like, excuses don't matter?

Alan Chang 40:46 Excuses don't matter. If you're a leader of the com- if you, if you're a leader of an area in the company, excuses don't matter. If you succeed, you get all the praise. If you fail, you get all the blame, and it does not matter why you failed.

Harry Stebbings 40:58 Do you worry that you're ever too harsh on people? I, I, I, I get told I am 'cause I would say things like this, "I don't give a r- I don't care about your excuses."

Alan Chang 41:08 Mm.

Harry Stebbings 41:08 It's like, "I care about outcomes."

Alan Chang 41:10 Mm.

Harry Stebbings 41:10 And, and people say that I'm too harsh, I'm too direct. Do you worry?

Alan Chang 41:16 Hmm, I don't care what they think. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 41:18 (laughs) And you don't worry about them leaving? Because, like, for my best performers, for your use, when Nick at Revolut is saying that to you, Nick should be terrified that you leave. You're a core part of that business. I, I want to protect you and look after you, and when you say, "Dude, there's a lot of reasons why. I don't know, Poland didn't work in the expansion and da da da da da," okay, Alan, like, "You're my guy. I'm here for you and thank you for explaining that to me." I want to protect my best performers.

Alan Chang 41:49 Well, I would say I don't think that's protecting, right? That's just hiding, you know, information from your best performers, right? Ultimately, your best performers should... Like, they're, they're, they're smart. They're hardworking. Like, they're not dumb, right? Initially, I took that feedback to heart and I was resisting at first. I thought it was unfair, right? But then I thought more about it and it made me a better person, right? So I thank him for, for sending me the article. Like, what I re- what, what I found is, like, usually top performers internalizes negative feedback very well. They take negative feedback to heart and they find ways to improve, right? Um, if there are people who don't take negative feedback well-... I don't think they're top performers.

Harry Stebbings 42:36 What was the bit of feedback that you found most hard to take?

Alan Chang 42:40 Y- you have to assume the p- the person giving you negative feedback have your- have the best intentions for you. And once you realize that, and it's nothing personal, like, you can take all negative feedback, even if it's very harsh.

Harry Stebbings 42:55 Was there a bit of feedback that you found the hardest to give?

Alan Chang 42:59 No. Because like, it's- it's very important you have- you create a culture of truth-seeking, right? And the truth is very ugly, you know, might hurt someone's feelings. You should still say it because you'll make that person, you know, make that person better.

Harry Stebbings 43:19 Is there anything that you shouldn't say because it ultimately doesn't make them better?

Alan Chang 43:23 If I- if when I realize a person... If I keep giving negative feedback to a person and they haven't improved, then I, I just stop bothering. Then, you know, they can leave the company.

Harry Stebbings 43:35 Do you think there's a bit of a culture of fear around you? Like if you look... Again, I love Nick, and I think he's a phenomenal leader and one of the greatest founders that I've ever interviewed, ever, and I've done a thousand founder interviews. Truly the best. Um, but I mean, let's not cut, you know, I don't know, whatever the right term. Let's not shy away from it.

Alan Chang 43:55 Mm-hmm.

Harry Stebbings 43:55 People are scared of him. Is it bad to have a fear-based leadership?

Alan Chang 44:01 What matters is people need to feel like they can speak the truth.

Harry Stebbings 44:06 And you do with Nick?

Alan Chang 44:07 Yes. I tell him if I think it's a bad idea, I tell Nick. Now, he can disagree with me, and sometimes that changes mine, sometimes I don't, right? Um, but I do tell him the truth.

Harry Stebbings 44:21 What specific decision on product or strategy do you think moved the needle most with Revolut, when you think about those decisions? Was there one, like, "We have to go into crypto, we have to go into stock trading, we have to do X country, we have to invest in X"?

Alan Chang 44:40 No, because the answer is we need to do everything. (laughs) I think, uh, yeah, I think as we build a company, we realize there's so many opportunities, and we just need to pursue all of them.

Harry Stebbings 44:53 That advice is completely counter what every founder is being told, that you need to focus, you need to create a product for a very specific customer base, and you need to deliver that excellent experience, and focus, focus, focus.

Alan Chang 45:05 Yep.

Harry Stebbings 45:05 There's so many shiny objects. You can't pursue them all.

Alan Chang 45:08 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 45:08 That advice is completely counter that. What would you say to them listening, who are now confused? (laughs)

Alan Chang 45:14 I, I, I actually think there are not enough ambitious founders out there, 'cause ultimately, the, the, the throughput of the company, like how many parallel work streams you can take at a, at a given time is dictated by number of great leaders you have in the company. And the zero sum mindset would be, "Okay, I only have that many leaders in the company," but in some case, it could just be the founders himself, um, "And therefore, I'm just gonna pursue these things." The expansionist mindset would be, "I need to hire more leaders in my company so I can pursue more," right? So I'll argue we're in the business of expanding things, right? So rather than you try and play the zero sum game, we should think, try and figure out ways to, you know, hire more leaders so we can pursue more.

Harry Stebbings 46:01 What does your direct report structure look like? Uh, yeah, Jensen has popularized the having, you know, 50, and being so involved in the minutiae of a large amount of the business, in terms of surface area. To what extent do you agree with that, versus the delegate to fantastic leadership, like you kind of mentioned there, in terms of increasing surface area?

Alan Chang 46:20 Yeah. So I would say, yeah, I, I think I have many direct reports. I, I, I don't know how many. Uh, I, I would probably lean towards what Jensen's doing, 'cause ultimately, I do- I don't even think of them, think of them as direct reports, right? I think of them as like, you know, going back to the self-guiding missile analogy, right? You don't need to manage those people, right? Like, you discuss and you, you debate about the target, right? But once you both agree on the target, then that's it, right? Um, you don't really have to manage them. You just monitor and make things are okay, but that's about it.

Harry Stebbings 46:54 Talking about monitoring and management, your offices are in Canary Wharf. Not the obvious place for startups in London. Shoreditch, kind of most famous Silicon roundabout. Why are you in Canary Wharf?

Alan Chang 47:07 So first of all, it's, it's probably the only place in London where you can keep expanding offices, right? So you can keep upgrading office without incurring a big penalty in a lease. Second reason, it's far away from the party, right? Um, you know, there... If you, if you, if you work around here, it's, uh, like, you know, there's this, there's this thing going on in this bar, right, or this, this club, right? Um, um, I think there's too much going on in West London, um, too many distractions. Whereas compared over here, there's nothing going on. It's just work and nothing else. So I find that, um-

Harry Stebbings 47:44 Do you not think that like... I live here, but I'm fucking disciplined. I don't go to parties. I don't drink. I don't, I don't do anything but work and gym.

Alan Chang 47:51 Mm-hmm.

Harry Stebbings 47:52 Is that not the secret to being a great entrepreneur? Discipline?

Alan Chang 47:55 I think so, but I'm talking about other people in the team.

Harry Stebbings 47:59 Hmm.

Alan Chang 48:00 Like ultimately, like, you want to... You know, it's like if you see, if you see a, you know, a full bar downstairs, I think you're tempted, right? You might, "Oh, I'm gonna, you know, pop down for a pint," right? (laughs)

Alan Chang 48:15 And whereas-

Harry Stebbings 48:15 Do you expect people to work weekends?

Alan Chang 48:18 Yeah, I'd, I'd say like, as I said before, like, this is, this is very hard. Like, there's only way to do it... Like, we, we, we're going against, you know, big, big, big energy companies with like huge balance sheets, you know, billions in revenue. Only way to win is, you know, with much smaller balance sheets, much less cash, much less resources, is, is work ethic.

Harry Stebbings 48:43 Work ethic gets you a long way. In the early days, you built the MVP with just a million bucks, right? M- before any outside funding. Can you talk to me about that and what you advise founders on MVPs and going to V1 with minimal resources, having done that?

Alan Chang 48:59 Yeah, so, yeah, so at the time we wanted to build a full stack energy company and we had a million bucks. So, what we need for full stack energy company, we need power generation, we need a license, we need someone to help us guide through regulation, we need a qualified trader, so you need to be qualified to, to trade energy, uh, and we also need a qualified electrician. So, we found a single wind turbine in north of Scotland, um, that the seller was willing to sell for 750K. Uh, we found a license for 75K. Um, we convinced, uh, the former CEO of Ofgem to become an advisor with just equity and no cash, um, and my co-founder, Charles, became a qualified trader and electrician. So we acquired all the skills (laughs) and assets we need to build a MVP full stack energy company. So my advice is, I don't think you need a lot of capital. You don't need a huge seed round to get started. You can just do it-

Harry Stebbings 50:13 If you can, why don't you? There's so much venture money say, dude. If you can, why don't you?

Alan Chang 50:18 I think you could. If you could, you should.

Harry Stebbings 50:20 But you could. Anyone would've written you, like you could say, "I'm, I'm doing a fart app." (laughs)

Alan Chang 50:26 (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 50:26 I'll give you 10 million bucks. (laughs)

Alan Chang 50:29 Um...

Harry Stebbings 50:30 The disgraceful thing about you, Alan, is I would've given you money for almost anything but this. (laughs)

Alan Chang 50:38 (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 50:38 And this is like my biggest lesson and mistake, I listen to you and I just die inside, honestly. I do also remember, dude, you had the token element, which just, it was hard to digest.

Alan Chang 50:48 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 50:49 We chatted about wh- when you were raising your first round. Um... God, anyway. Um, and one of your investors said that I had to ask you, no it wasn't you, it was actually Antoine, who said, "Is it true that you rocked up to Balderton with your Ferrari parked outside and then strolled in and said, 'I'm gonna raise a $60 million seed round?'"

Alan Chang 51:11 Yeah, there's some truth to that, yeah. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 51:12 How did it go down?

Alan Chang 51:15 I think, uh, I think it went pretty well. Um...

Harry Stebbings 51:18 You raised 78-

Alan Chang 51:20 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 51:20 ... in the first round.

Alan Chang 51:22 Yeah, I think, uh, they really, really liked the concept and, and I think what they realized is, is a pretty good strategy. And I, I realized after the, you know, a lot, a lot of the investments, I think they, they've just... because they made so much money from the Revel investment, they just keep investing ex-Revel teams.

Harry Stebbings 51:42 You ra- you, 78 at 140, 150?

Alan Chang 51:46 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 51:47 You diluted like half.

Alan Chang 51:50 Uh, it wasn't just equity.

Harry Stebbings 51:52 Ah, of course it was the tokens.

Alan Chang 51:54 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 51:54 Yeah, this is where I fucking hated it. Sorry, dude.

Alan Chang 51:56 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 51:56 So for me as a vent-

Alan Chang 51:57 It's all right.

Harry Stebbings 51:57 Yeah, for me as a venture investor, it's like, "Hang on a minute, I'm gonna give you like 20 million bucks and 10's going to tokens and 10 going to equity?"

Alan Chang 52:03 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 52:04 Like, come on. This was when I was like starting my career and I had to be disciplined, you know?

Alan Chang 52:10 Yeah, sure.

Harry Stebbings 52:10 And you're like young and you think you have to do everything by the book.

Alan Chang 52:12 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 52:13 Yeah, yeah, exactly that. Okay, is, is there anything that you would do differently about the early rounds of funding with the benefit of hindsight that you have today?

Alan Chang 52:22 Yeah, I think, uh, raised a too low price. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 52:25 Could you have raised it higher?

Alan Chang 52:27 Could have.

Harry Stebbings 52:28 Why didn't you?

Alan Chang 52:29 We told... So we had a, we had a price in mind and...

Harry Stebbings 52:35 What was the price?

Alan Chang 52:36 It was roughly where we were at, uh, 145. Um, well, 140 actually. And we, we had a oral agreement with Balderton we would take the, we'd take their term sheet. Um, and then, but we haven't signed the term sheet yet. And then later there was another investor that came, they came and said, "I will offer you a, a higher term sheet." Um, we said no because we already agreed with Balderton we'd take their term sheet.

Harry Stebbings 53:06 And you regret that?

Alan Chang 53:07 No, like I would say, like, you know, like ultimately we... I regret saying yes, you know, it's too early (laughs) , um, because we could have raised a better terms.

Harry Stebbings 53:21 So what would you advise founders on the back of that?

Alan Chang 53:24 Like ultimately I would say the, the worth of the company at the time, I, I, I under- I underestimated the value of the company at the time, um, 'cause I didn't realize, you know, investor put such a high price on it. So I'll say, you know, wait for a bit longer (laughs) . At the time it was like effectively the second term sheet we had. Um, by the same time, like I, I, I, I believe like if you say you're gonna do something, you should do it. And that's why we, we took Balderton's, uh, term sheet, even though, you know, we could have received

Alan Chang 54:00 a better one.

Harry Stebbings 54:01 You raised a recent round, uh, 75 billion.

Alan Chang 54:04 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 54:05 Um, that, that's often what's referred to as a suicide round, which is like a very high price with not actually that much money going into the business.

Alan Chang 54:14 Mm-hmm.

Harry Stebbings 54:15 W- why, why is that a good round for the company?

Alan Chang 54:19 First of all, the company... Yeah, so the company is doing over 400 million revenue, annualized revenue.

Harry Stebbings 54:28 400 million?

Alan Chang 54:29 Yeah, and-

Harry Stebbings 54:30 Wh- when was day one revenue? Like what's that slope?

Alan Chang 54:34 So day one, so in terms of financial year, we increase our revenue 10X every year since inception.

Harry Stebbings 54:43 And day one was d- I'm just trying to get a s-

Alan Chang 54:46 Well, it was, well, the first year was two million pounds, so about three-... just start, start for $3 million. Second year was 20 pounds, so roughly $25, 26. And then this year, we're going to end at t- over 200 pounds. So yeah, roughly 260.

Harry Stebbings 55:09 You can't 10X again.

Alan Chang 55:12 We'll try. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 55:13 (laughs) Where do you think you will land? If we, me and you have a bet, okay, and we'll sit here next, press-

Alan Chang 55:17 I mean, like, our, our, our business plan is, you know, much less than 10X, right, for next year. Um-

Harry Stebbings 55:24 Is it 5X?

Alan Chang 55:25 Something around there. Um, but we'll, we'll, we'll still shoot for 10. I think we can-

Harry Stebbings 55:32 What would be the biggest barrier to you hitting a billion?

Alan Chang 55:35 (sighs)

Harry Stebbings 55:35 Like, there's one reason. What is it?

Alan Chang 55:37 I think it's speed of hiring quality engineering. That, that's the biggest barrier. Yeah, there's no capital. It's quality of

Alan Chang 55:45 engineering.

Harry Stebbings 55:45 Why do you like hiring Eastern European engineers?

Alan Chang 55:49 Because, uh, culturally, they, I think they favor technical education. Um, and they have very strong work ethic.

Harry Stebbings 55:57 With the success that you've had, dude, what have been your biggest reflections on how you think about your relationship to money?

Alan Chang 56:05 Um, I think, for me, o- obviously money's great. Um, but beyond levels of personal consumption, and I personally don't spend that much money, um, I think it becomes a means to an end. And-

Harry Stebbings 56:18 Can I be blunt and ask you, what is that level? And this is for me. I, I'm not sure what that is. I don't want to be on the hedonic treadmill, but I do think about that.

Alan Chang 56:31 I'd say number's probably like five.

Harry Stebbings 56:34 Do you remember when you made your first real money?

Alan Chang 56:37 I do remember, yeah.

Harry Stebbings 56:38 How did it feel?

Alan Chang 56:40 Felt surreal. Like, my bank, my, my Revolut account went from-

Harry Stebbings 56:46 (laughs)

Alan Chang 56:47 ... you know, basically no money and it 1,000X overnight. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 56:55 Did you sell much of your Revolut?

Alan Chang 56:57 No. I s- only sold for what I needed to, only for personal consumption. I'm still very bullish on the company.

Harry Stebbings 57:04 How big can Revolut be? I often don't say publicly, it's like easily a 250 billion dollar business.

Alan Chang 57:10 I think it's too small.

Harry Stebbings 57:11 Pause. Without the US, with the US, it's a 500 billion dollar business.

Alan Chang 57:17 Uh, I think, I think, I think we're a trillion-dollar company.

Harry Stebbings 57:21 Do you think you'll be able to crack the US?

Alan Chang 57:23 If someone's going to do it, it's Nikolai.

Harry Stebbings 57:25 At what price would you start to sell?

Alan Chang 57:28 Trillion. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 57:30 (laughs) Um,

Harry Stebbings 57:33 I totally get that. What does no one know about having money that people should know about having money?

Alan Chang 57:37 Actually buys you quite a bit of time back.

Harry Stebbings 57:41 Where do you spend to save time?

Alan Chang 57:43 I think having an assistant helps you save a lot of time. Like, so you don't have to do, waste a lot of time doing a lot of the chores. Um, I think travel. Like, flying coach just kills your... I think it just wastes two days, right? So just, I think it's worth flying, flying, flying business helps you, you know, you can work on a plane and not feel terrible, you know, the day after, right? So I think, you know, traveling better, eating better, and not wasting time on things outside the business. Like, you could buy, buy a lot of time back.

Harry Stebbings 58:25 Does it change your relationship, personal relationships?

Alan Chang 58:28 Maybe for the better, right? You stop thinking about, you know, price tags. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 58:34 (laughs)

Alan Chang 58:35 Uh, which is good, right? You just, you know, go wherever you want, eat wherever you were, uh, wherever you want. Um, so I think it does help in a positive way. But yeah, but also like you, you n- then you need to think like, you know, who your friends truly are, right?

Harry Stebbings 58:53 Have you ever had that question?

Alan Chang 58:55 Luckily, all my existing friends have not changed how they treat me, you know, after, you know, some success. Um, but I have had a lot of long time (laughs) from, you know, people I went to school with.

Harry Stebbings 59:12 Dude, I want to ask a quickfire round. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts.

Alan Chang 59:16 Sure.

Harry Stebbings 59:17 So what investor do you not have that you would most like to have?

Alan Chang 59:21 One person. You. (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 59:23 Do you d- (laughs)

Alan Chang 59:26 (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 59:27 (laughs) Do you know what's really hard about what I do?

Alan Chang 59:29 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 59:29 It's that I'm friends with the greatest founders.

Alan Chang 59:34 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 59:34 And in a lot of cases, like you've invested in Project Europe, and I have the joys of like knowing you.

Alan Chang 59:39 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 59:39 And it really is a joy.

Alan Chang 59:41 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 59:41 And I'm like, "What the fuck? Why am I not invested in these companies?" (laughs)

Alan Chang 59:44 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 59:44 I have this with like Matty at Eleven Labs.

Alan Chang 59:46 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 59:46 And I'm just like, "Ugh." It almost happened too early for me. Does that make sense? It's like I became friends with these people and had the chance to invest-

Alan Chang 59:55 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 59:56 ... when I was a kid.

Alan Chang 59:57 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 59:57 And I didn't know what I was doing.

Alan Chang 59:58 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 59:59 And had I had that now, it would've been very different. But it is life.

Alan Chang 1:00:04 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 1:00:04 Um, rank these in order of importance, luck, talent, and timing.

Alan Chang 1:00:09 I think timing, talent, luck.

Harry Stebbings 1:00:12 Why timing first?

Alan Chang 1:00:14 I think if you get the timing wrong, even if you're the best team in the world, you're not gonna make it. Like, for example, I don't think Fuse could have been built 10 years ago. I think Fuse is only possible because the requirements have changed, right? Because the renewable penetration in the grid is so high, and the skills you need to, you know, the ability to manage renewables is so different to how we used to generate and consume power. If you look at Revolut, um, you know, I think Revolut is only possible because of the EMI license. And the EMI license was...... created, you know, just a couple of years before Revolut was founded. So if, I don't think Revolut would have been possible, you know, 10 years before, you know, 2014. So I do, I do think timing matters. And then the second thing is talent. Like, I think these are two prerequisites. So if you have good timing, if you have good talent, I think luck will also come.

Harry Stebbings 1:01:16 What's been the hardest decision you've made in your career?

Alan Chang 1:01:19 Probably leaving Revolut. Like-

Harry Stebbings 1:01:21 Did you want to stay to IPO?

Alan Chang 1:01:22 I do, I do. Like, u- ultimately, like it's-

Harry Stebbings 1:01:26 Do you remember telling Nick?

Alan Chang 1:01:28 I remember.

Harry Stebbings 1:01:29 Can you just tell me that?

Alan Chang 1:01:31 It was a very, very hard moment. And he asked me, "Are you sure?" three times.

Harry Stebbings 1:01:37 (laughs)

Alan Chang 1:01:39 Uh, and I said, "I'm sure," uh, three times. 'Cause ultimately, like-

Harry Stebbings 1:01:42 Where were you?

Alan Chang 1:01:44 Sorry?

Harry Stebbings 1:01:44 Where were you? What time of day was it? How did you do that?

Alan Chang 1:01:46 It was, uh, yeah, I think it was a Friday afternoon. And it was actually the same meeting, main- meeting where you did a podcast with Nick.

Harry Stebbings 1:01:55 Wow.

Alan Chang 1:01:56 Yeah, it was that room.

Harry Stebbings 1:01:58 What did he say? 'Cause, uh, respectfully, a lot of people have come and gone from Revolut.

Alan Chang 1:02:03 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 1:02:04 But you were his guy.

Alan Chang 1:02:05 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 1:02:07 Was he visibly shocked?

Alan Chang 1:02:10 I don't know. He, he, he has this emotionless-

Harry Stebbings 1:02:12 (laughs)

Alan Chang 1:02:13 ... (laughs) reaction. Um, yeah, he just asked me, "Are you sure?"

Harry Stebbings 1:02:17 Did he invest in Fuse?

Alan Chang 1:02:19 Yes. In the most recent round.

Harry Stebbings 1:02:22 In the most recent round?

Alan Chang 1:02:23 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 1:02:25 Fucking great. Is it still open? (laughs)

Alan Chang 1:02:28 (laughs)

Harry Stebbings 1:02:29 Like, I can't believe it. I, I said this to Matty the other day. I was like, "I can't believe we're still not invested. We- I'm gonna just pay any price. I'm just pissed off." (laughs)

Alan Chang 1:02:37 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 1:02:37 That's amazing. Um, okay. What's... You said, uh, downstairs, being CEO's not all it's cracked up to be.

Alan Chang 1:02:44 Mm-hmm.

Harry Stebbings 1:02:45 Um, why is it not all it's cracked up to be, being CEO?

Alan Chang 1:02:48 I mean, I think there are pros and cons. Um, I think the pro's, like, like at Revolut, I, I can basically get to pick the role I wanted, right? The problems I wanted to solve. Um, but now I, I give that opportunity to, you know, uh, leaders with- other leaders within the company. That means, by definition, I, I don't get to choose the things I do.

Harry Stebbings 1:03:15 What are you not doing today that you would most like to be doing?

Alan Chang 1:03:19 I would love to go much deeper on, on engineering, on hardware. Like going to like very low level details.

Harry Stebbings 1:03:32 Can I ask you, how big is the biggest incumbent in this space?

Alan Chang 1:03:35 Our view is like, so you have the power incumbents and then you have the big oil majors, right? Incumbents. Um, if you look at big oil majors, like Shell, they make a billion revenue a day, approximately.

Harry Stebbings 1:03:51 How big can Fuse be?

Alan Chang 1:03:53 I think we could be bigger than Shell.

Harry Stebbings 1:03:55 How much is Shell worth?

Alan Chang 1:03:57 I think they're worth just north of $300 billion. They list on the Stock- London Stock Exchange though. There's a, I think, discount.

Harry Stebbings 1:04:06 How the fuck does that matter? Sorry, they do a billion in revenue a day.

Alan Chang 1:04:09 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 1:04:10 And they're worth less than their annual revenue then?

Alan Chang 1:04:13 Yeah. I think if, if they were listed in the US, they'd probably be worth more.

Harry Stebbings 1:04:16 Would you list in the US?

Alan Chang 1:04:19 If we ever list, I think it will be the US, yeah.

Harry Stebbings 1:04:21 Would you list?

Alan Chang 1:04:23 I personally don't see a need to. Um, there's a lot of liquidity in the private markets. Um, and obviously there's additional overhead being li- a listed company. Like, so far, like, like the only, like only, only reason I see listing as, uh, as a real need is if the liquidity dries up in the private markets.

Harry Stebbings 1:04:46 Do you let team members sell?

Alan Chang 1:04:49 Yeah.

Harry Stebbings 1:04:50 Revolut was very tight on any secondary sales. It was like a, uh, incredibly guarded subject. Are you the same or are you a little bit looser?

Alan Chang 1:05:00 Um, well, I'd say like we, we do wanna create liquidity opportunities for employee stockholders. And, you know, sometimes people need to buy a house, need to buy a car, they need to... And yeah, I think, I think, yeah, some liquidity is, is helpful.

Harry Stebbings 1:05:15 Final one for you, dude. I like to end on a tone of positivity and optimism. What excites you most in the next 10 years?

Alan Chang 1:05:22 I think what will be... We love to build a world where, you know, power is so cheap and abundant that any builder, you know, AI or otherwise, don't even think about power anymore and they can just build more and economies start growing again as a result. That'll be great.

Harry Stebbings 1:05:47 Allen, I so appreciate you. I think you are one of the great entrepreneurs in the UK. Um, I'm gonna pester you about investing. (laughs) And I so appreciate our friendship, so thank you so much for doing this with me, dude.

Alan Chang 1:05:58 Oh, thanks for having me.