The Twenty Minute VCFuse CEO Alan Chang: The Revolut Playbook of Speed & Ownership, Why Founders Aren’t Ambitious Enough
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 11,711 words- 0:00 – 1:20
Intro
- ACAlan Chang
If you have a gun pointed to your head today, would you have done more? If the answer is yes, that means you're not doing a good job. (camera whooshing)
- HSHarry Stebbings
Allen is the co-founder and CEO of Fuse Energy. Like Netflix beat incumbents to own media, Revolut beat incumbents to own banking, Fuse will beat incumbents to own energy.
- ACAlan Chang
There's nothing wrong with wanting work/life balance, but I think the only way to build a generational company is very, very strong work ethic. I just don't see any other way to do it. If you're a leader of an area in the company, excuses don't matter. If you succeed, you get all the praise. If you fail, you get all the blame, and it does not matter why you fail. We increased our revenue 10X every year since inception. First year was £2 million, second year was 20, and then this year, we're going to end at over £200 million.
- HSHarry Stebbings
You can't 10X again. (wind blowing) Ready to go? (upbeat music) Allen, dude, I am so looking forward to this. So I, I have you to thank for hiring my chief of staff, 'cause we were sitting in a cocktail bar in London and you were helping me hire, and I was like then, "Holy shit, this guy is brilliant and I need to do a show with him." That was three years ago. So thank you so much for doing this with me.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- 1:20 – 4:58
The interview process that led to the $150M pay packet
- HSHarry Stebbings
Dude, I think a really interesting one to start with is you're a fricking machine, and I just want to understand, when we look at, like, transformative moments, one of the most transformative early moments for you was getting the job with Nick and with Revolut. Can you just take me to that? And Sacre actually said I had to ask this one. He was like, "You got to start with how he actually got the job." How did you get the job with Nick, and what did that look like?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, so at the time, I just, you know, I, I, I had just graduated and, uh, I was just perusing on the, on the Facebook group, like it was called London Startups, and I saw this job post, um, Revolut, and I was like, "Okay, I have no idea what this company does, uh, but it's looking for fresh grads." I said, "Okay." I applied, and Nick replied within five minutes. And I was like, "Oh, wow, that's, that's very quick." And then he asked me to come for a face-to-face interview the next day. So I came for an interview and he asked me a bunch of physics questions. I was like, you know, I, I didn't realize I was look- I was applying for a physics job. (laughs) Um, and he offered m- me a role, you know, right after the interview. I said yes, and that was it. That was like, uh, the fastest interview process I've ev- I've ever had.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What was the position, and what size and scale was Revolut then?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, so at the time, in terms of full-time, it was Nick, Vlad, and two other full-time engineers, and that was it. So it was just hot desking. And the job was just, and it was called operations analyst, um, but effectively, the first three months, was doing customer support.
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs) When did you realize that this was going to be a massive, $100 billion company?
- ACAlan Chang
So at the time, Revolut was, uh, in a co-working space called Level39.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah, (laughs) I remember this.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, and, uh, so Level39 is, yeah, for those who don't know, it's, it's basically a giant, yeah, uh, startup co-working space with maybe over 200 startups. And Revolut was the only team that worked past 7:00 PM on the weekday. So after 7:00 PM, the whole floor is dead. Uh, it was also the only team that worked on the weekends. So when I realized, like, okay, when I realized that, you know, I knew th- there was something special. The second moment was, uh, I asked Nick, like, "What's, what's your ambition? Like, what, what keeps you motivated?" And at the time, he's, you know, worth quite a bit of money already, so, you know, what, what keeps him, what, what drives him, right? And he told me he wants to beat JPMorgan. So that's the second moment I realized, you know, this is going to be a massive company.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What do you think you guys did really right really early on that led to such success early?
- ACAlan Chang
I think the... So at the time wh- when we got started, there were basically three players, all right? Um, there was Revolut, Monzo, and N26.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- ACAlan Chang
Um, and for the first two years, at least from the outside, it feels like neck to neck, right? It wasn't clear, uh, who the winner was. But for me, it was crystal clear, right? It was crystal clear who was going to win. And, and the reason why is because it's just the team's ambition and execution, right? 'cause ultimately, if you, if you ask the same teams at the time, like, basically their product roadmap, almost everyone would tell you basically the same, right? There wasn't any differentiation in product roadmap. Um, but it, what differentiate between, you know, us and everyone else was basically the ambition and the speed of execution. I think
- 4:58 – 8:35
How Revolut drove speed and urgency in their teams
- ACAlan Chang
that was it.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How do you move so fast? What is your biggest lessons on how to create speed of execution within teams? I want this internally. Y- y- you've met my team here. You see it. How do I encourage this urgency and speed of execution internally, and how do you do it?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, so I think, uh, have small teams, um, yeah, small teams operating in their independent units, and give them very clear goals, and let them, let them execute. And you know, what you should do is monitor those teams, and if they do well, let them be. If they don't do well, replace the team.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What did you learn from Nick about managing people and people performance?
- ACAlan Chang
It's all about results. Uh, like I think, I think Nick's make this, made this analogy before, but, um, there are three types of people in the world. There are, there are people who can self-identify the target and shoot and hit the goal, then there are people who can't identify targets, but if you point, they shoot and they hit the goal, and then the third type of people, which is neither, right? You want to maximize the first and second...... group of people, um, and you want ideally the first and second type of people leading teams, right? Um, and basically the throughput of your company is basically a sum of the number of people in the first and second bucket.
- HSHarry Stebbings
When you bring those people together and you grow very fast, what was the most significant breaking moment in the early Revolut days and what did you learn and take from it?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah. So I- I'll say the get shit done culture really, um, I, I think it's, it's the best way to build something great very, very fast, um, and it's something I, I, I took on board, uh, but I even amped it up, uh, even more. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
How do you amp it up more?
- ACAlan Chang
I think just getting, putting even more intensity, right? Just driving a lot of urgency within the company, like always keep people on their toes, like-
- HSHarry Stebbings
How do you k- I'm sorry. I, I am asking you because I'm, I'm trying to learn from you. (laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How do you, like, always keep people on their toes? Is it like pushing them in terms of their goals? Is it pushing them in terms of the hours and the work and the intensity? Is it... Wh- what, what is it?
- ACAlan Chang
Oh, in terms of, uh, in terms of results, right, or, or lack thereof, right? So we, I always emphasize like, "We're, we're not moving fast enough. Um, we could be doing more but we're not." You know, for example, like I, I told our team last year our execution was maybe 4 out of 10, right? And we need to get a 10, 10 out of 10 and we're not passing.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What was the problem with that and how did you fix it?
- ACAlan Chang
Like, the problem was speed of execution, right? Like, we, we were too slow. We wanted to ship a bunch of things and we, we didn't, right? Things were delayed.
- HSHarry Stebbings
When were you off target in execution with Revolut and what did you learn from that?
- ACAlan Chang
I think we were off execution maybe every year. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
Um, because you could be... I think, I think our mindset should be... I think, I don't think number one is enough. I think you need to be your best versions of yourself, right? So you always need to review, okay, in the past week, in the past month, what kind of, what could I have, what could I have done better, right? Or, and like, maybe a, maybe a more extreme analogy, right? Um, like I used to ask my team, right, at, at Rev, "If you had a po- if you have a gun pointed to your head today, would you have done more?" If the answer is yes, that means you're not doing
- 8:35 – 10:56
You cannot have work-life balance
- ACAlan Chang
a good job.
- HSHarry Stebbings
There will be people who say, "I also have a family. I also have other parts of my life."
- ACAlan Chang
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And I get this a lot, you, I'm, I'm sure you've probably seen-
- ACAlan Chang
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... because you're socially aware, but like, 996 I've been chastised for-
- ACAlan Chang
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... um, actually including by some of your investors at Balderson, um, interesting, uh, who would say, "It's not work-life balance." And I could always say, "Yes, I could have done more but I have other parts of my life."
- ACAlan Chang
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How do you respond to them?
- ACAlan Chang
Uh, don't join Fuse. That's okay. (laughs) Like, I, I, I have totally re- I have total respect for people who want, uh, you know, like a nine to five job, right? Like, there's nothing wrong with wanting work, work/life balance. Um, but I think the only way to build a generational company is like, you know, very, very strong work ethic. I, I, I just don't see any other way to do it.
- HSHarry Stebbings
When you look back now, Revolut is known for its intense culture as well.
- ACAlan Chang
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
It's where I think you've learnt a lot of this. (laughs) Where was the Revolut culture amazing that you've really taken from it and where was it, actually, I'm glad that we left that behind and it wasn't helpful?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah. I think Revolut's culture of never settle, like in terms of speed and quality, is something I, you know, took over. Like, like, Revolut had a lot of cultural values and, and to be honest, like, I think it was a bit too many for me. I always forget all of them. But as-
- HSHarry Stebbings
How, how many does it have?
- ACAlan Chang
Uh, from memory it's six. Um...
- HSHarry Stebbings
Okay. How many should you have?
- ACAlan Chang
I think one. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
What's your one cultural value?
- ACAlan Chang
So, never settle. It's the one that resonated with, with me the most.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can I ask, do you apply that to all parts of life? And what I mean by that is, you know, one of, one of the heads of a firm recently said to me, and it's one of the biggest firms in the world but I do want to keep this one private because otherwise they'll fucking kill me, they said, "How you do anything is how you do everything." Like, "If we have mistakes in a memo, that says that we're not thinking clearly and we're not putting the work in." And I actually didn't really agree with that. I think you have to pick your battles and choose where to be all in. How do you think about that, never settle? Because sometimes it's okay to settle on 80% for a junior account manager in whatever. Do you know what I mean?
- ACAlan Chang
I, I agree with that, yeah. I think you have to pick your battles, for sure. Ultimately, like, you need to identify the most important roles in the company and never settle on those roles. But the roles that matter less, I think it's perfectly okay to
- 10:56 – 13:50
What I disagreed with Nik on most
- ACAlan Chang
settle.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can I ask you, when you were building Revolut with Nick and the team, what was your biggest disagreement with Nick and, and how did that play out?
- ACAlan Chang
I'll say the overuse of KPIs because ultimately there are things you should measure and, you know, which tells you the health of that team, how well they're doing, and you should 100% do that. But then once you start incentivizing against that, teams find ways to game it. And I think Nick is a super numbers driven guy, right, and I think, uh, that work, work well, you know, worked very well in, in, in, in, in, in a large part. But I would say, not everything should be a KPI.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What shouldn't be a KPI and what should and how do you determine that?
- ACAlan Chang
I mean, like, e- like when you start incentivizing a metric, we need to think about, okay, what are the second order of consequences? Right? Let's take a very simple example. Let's say, um, let's take a re- a re- a recruiter, right? If you give a KPI to a recruiter, um, let's say on hires per month, what they might start to, start to do, right, because their bonus depends on it, is try to convince hiring managers to lower the talent bar.And I've seen that happen before. Uh, but that's actually not what the company wants, right? What the company wants is actually keep the talent bar high. So instead they try, you know, you know, some recruiters that really want to chase a bonus is they, they try and negotiate with hiring managers, try and convince them, "This is the best you're going to find. You're not going to find, you're not going to find someone better," et cetera, et cetera.
- HSHarry Stebbings
When we look at outcomes, I think so much of Revolut's success has come from product diversification and the testing that you guys did internally. When I interviewed Nick, the thing that struck me was, he said about the 26 kind of product, uh, experiments were being run internally at the same time. That was a really interesting way to approach company building to me that no one had ever talked to me about before. What did you learn from that and what are your takeaways from seeing that you, that you've applied to Fuse?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, I think product diversification, diversification is so important. I mean, let me give you, like give you, let me give you like one, one example of why that was so important. So, like during the COVID lockdowns, um, the interchange revenue, so, you know, revenue from people spending on cards, e- especially abroad, went basically near zero, right? However, um, there was a lot of stimulus checks, right, from, from the COVID times and the stock market was booming, right, and the crypto market was booming. So whilst the interchange revenue went down, the, you know, trading revenue went up. So it kind of offset each other. Um, so that was a great example where diversification actually helped make the company's revenues much more
- 13:50 – 18:18
Is Nik right that Revolut should have got a banking licence earlier?
- ACAlan Chang
resilient.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you think you should have gone for the banking license earlier? Nick's publicly said that he thinks he should have done, but when you look there, I think your product diversification was enabled by your not having the banking license earlier where Monzo did.
- ACAlan Chang
Actually, I think, uh, the product diversification could have happened even if Revolut got a banking license earlier. I think Nick is totally right. Uh, the, the issue with... The issue is like the bigger you get, I guess the more scared the regulators are of you. Because if you succeed, they have no upside. They don't get a bon- bigger bonus. But if you fail, like, they might lose their jobs. So it's ultimately like, you know, they're, they're incentivized to be risk averse as opposed to risk neutral, right? Whereas what's best for the economy is actually risk neutral regulators.
- HSHarry Stebbings
When was the first time that you really felt incumbents and regulators were aware of how successful you were becoming?
- ACAlan Chang
I still don't think they realize. I still don't think they, the incumbents, uh, have woken, woken up yet.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Oh dude, they have.
- ACAlan Chang
They have?
- HSHarry Stebbings
They have. I'm sorry, I spoke at one of the incumbent's, um, events recently and like pretty much the only thing that was discussed at their away day is Revolut.
- ACAlan Chang
But what have they done about it?
- HSHarry Stebbings
Well, the trouble is they can't, and that's why you bet long on Revolut. That's why I, I, I would like, and I am trying to buy every fucking Revolut share I can at, at a good price (laughs) because honestly, uh, the structures, the comp bands that they have, the policies that they have means that they can't do it.
- ACAlan Chang
Hmm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
It's, it's almost like they know the challenge, but they are unable to fight against it.
- ACAlan Chang
Hmm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And no one has ownership. It's a, it's a 100-year-old bank, has a hired CEO who's been paid five million a year for, you know, five years. He honestly, if he bounces, he'll go back to Marbella to the family home and it'll be fine. (laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, maybe. I guess talking about it and doing something about it is very different. Um, but yeah, I get your point.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you think it's important to have an enemy in a startup? Like whether it's Revolut and banks, whether it's Fuse and, you know, traditional incumbents. Is that important?
- ACAlan Chang
I think it's important to have a common goal. So like for example, at Fuse, our common goal is like no trade-offs. So if you think about, you know, looking back like last 20 years, right? Like this like green movement, right, of, you know, basically telling people to use less, right? So you, you had politicians that says, "You shouldn't... You should drive less to work. You should turn heating on less often. You should fly less. You should do, you know, less of everything," right? Um, in order to save the environment. Like, and then, and then you have, you know, energy prices slowly creeping up over, over the last 20 years as well. Um, I think it's like, it's bas- basically trade-offs, and I think that's totally wrong, right? Like it's actually moving in the complete opposite direction, right? It's, we should be using more energy. There's actually a very strong correlation between how much energy you use per capita and quality of life, right? And, and if you look at the Americans, right, the Americans use, you know, almost eight times more energy than Europeans and, and look at the quality of life, right?
- HSHarry Stebbings
Please tell me you're not saying the American quality of life is better than ours.
- ACAlan Chang
For sure, right? Like think about the, um, average American home, right? They have a large detou- detached house, big driveway, several cars, big backyard, maybe a swimming pool, maybe a sauna, and maybe a jacuzzi, right? And that's like, you know, middle class. Like we're not talking about like ultra-wealthy Americans. Even if you look at like the wealthy, you know, Brits living in London, right?
- HSHarry Stebbings
But I mean that, but that's bluntly built on a, an infrastructure of credit and borrowing that they are unable to afford, which you see in bluntly debt and borrowing levels in the US on the consumer side being higher than they've ever been. Wh- whilst at the same time, respectfully dude, their food supply chain is completely fucked unless you're on either coast and the quality of their food is shit and manufactured.
- ACAlan Chang
Uh, that's, that's also true, but if you look at the average cost of a American home, it's, uh, relatively affordable.
- HSHarry Stebbings
So what do we take away from that?
- ACAlan Chang
I think the takeaway is like you can, you can have it all three ways, right? You can have low cost energy, you can have, uh, more energy, and you can have lower carbon energy at the same time.
- 18:18 – 25:20
Energy Crisis
- HSHarry Stebbings
People often talk about the energy crisis that we're in today, and energy is now one of the hottest topics.
- ACAlan Chang
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
When people say like, you know, "Uh, it's a quarter to midnight, it's a minute to midnight," how close are we to an energy crisis? Is it a minute to midnight? Are we far away? What does that look like?
- ACAlan Chang
I think we're, I think we're in a energy crisis already. In, in the whole developed economies, UK is in the deepest trouble. So if you look at energy consumption per capita in the last 25 years, UK has dropped 25%. In US, it's been flat. In China, in the same period of time, it's gone up by seven times. Seven times, in the same period of time. Just think about that. Um, and energy prices have gone up, price volatility has gone up. Um, so everything is trending the wrong direction.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And what's the cause of that? Can you just help me understand? You know, I was talking to one of the biggest, um, kind of data infrastructure providers the other day. Uh, and they were like, "Listen, the reason we're not in the UK is because like as a percentage of revenue, energy is 16% of our revenues in the UK, whereas comparatively elsewhere, it's 3 to 4%." Why is that? Why are we so bad?
- ACAlan Chang
Two reasons. Uh, the first reason is over-regulation. There is, it's very hard to build anything in the UK, like physical or otherwise. Um, let me give you an example, right? Um, one of the ... So we were trying to build a power plant in the UK. And, you know, one of the things council have, uh, complete discretion over is, you know, planning, especially around environmental impact. So we had to do, you know, wintering bird surveys, right, over several winters. So you hire ... So how that works is you hire a guy with a clipboard, and they count number of birds in the winter. And until that survey is done, you can't build. So that's one example where, you know, it's so hard to build something physical in Britain. Um, and right now, I can tell you, um, if you speak to any of the, you know, infra capital providers, um, they want to deploy a lot of capital to building infrastructure. So the problem is not capital. The problem is it's very, very hard to build. So that's the first reason. The second reason I would say is the quality of companies operating in this space is not very sophisticated. Like a lot of these energy, existing energy companies, they are not technology-driven at all. They're very old-school, still pen-and-paper, spreadsheet-based companies, um, that are incredibly inefficient. Now, there's not much I can do about regulation, but I think we can, for sure, build the best version of what, uh, you know, best energy company using the latest technology.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Who is in charge of the regulation? Is this Ed Miliband in the energy?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, it's, it's Ofgem, it's DESNZ. Um, so yeah, I guess, uh-
- HSHarry Stebbings
A- and when we compare that to the US, do they not have the same regulatory compliance issues that, say, California does, which is why they failed so woefully on their expansion of the railway systems that they wanted to build out?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, I think, uh, to be clear, I think US also share a lot of the similar problems-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- ACAlan Chang
... um, to the UK, to a lesser extent, and also depends on what, what state are you talking about. For example, in state of Texas, right, where, you know, lot of people say it's the home of energy, it's much easier to build compared to the UK.
- HSHarry Stebbings
When you think about like energy, the energy crisis today, what does no one know that everyone should know? I'm very naive on energy. It's, it's not my business.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
It's not where we invest, traditionally.
- ACAlan Chang
So first of all, uh, there's no such thing as 100% renewable. So just think about, you know, when sun is shining, uh, solar power, uh, solar is generating. And obviously, sun is not shining all the time. And for wind, it's the same, right? When wind is blowing, you get wind energy, right, wind power. Uh, however, they are extremely correlated to each other. What that means is even if you over-build sun and wind, it's never possible to cover 100% of the time, um, to be 100% renewable because they're highly correlated, right? So in certain hours, you get abundant of solar and wind energy, but certain hours, you basically get zer- near zero energy, even if you over-build. Now, you can argue, okay, you can put storage in, but right now, most batteries are sub two hours, right? So they actually, batteries are so, way too expensive, um, for us to use to store, you know, you know, days or even weeks without, you know, solar and wind energy. So any energy company that's claiming they're 100% renewable is a, it is, is a complete lie, right? They are simply buying renewable certificates, right, to claim they're 100% renewable, and it's completely false. Just to give you, let me give you, let me give you like a proof point of why, why, why this is completely false. When, when we, when we had the, when Russia invaded Ukraine, the gas prices went shot up, but the energy companies are offering 100% renewable, energy tariffs also went up. (laughs) How's that possible if it's 100% renewable, right? I mean, that's the first thing. Second thing most people don't understand is power is not fungible across time and space. So you have a lot of power, for example, wind power, in north of Scotland that are being told to turn off because the power is not getting to where it needs to be. So people are not using energy when the wind is blowing, right, and it's also not going to where it needs to be, which is, you know, the big demand centers like, like London, because the grid is not set up to do that. So yeah, these are two biggest misconceptions in energy, I would say.
- HSHarry Stebbings
If you were in charge of the UK's energy policy program, what would you do differently that we're not doing today?
- ACAlan Chang
I would deregulate building anything physical. I would make it so easy for anyone to build. Number two is I would delete all subsidies of any kind.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why?
- ACAlan Chang
Because the goal for energy should be as low-cost as possible. A subsidy basically means it's actually not profitable to build this project, but because there's a subsidy, it's now profitable and who, who, who ... Think about it. Who takes that burden of that higher energy cost? It's ultimately the rate payers, right? It's, it's you and I. It's everyone. So actually, it doesn't make sense. So I would delete all subsidies and let the free market do its thing. If it's profitable to build it, people will build it. If it's not,
- 25:20 – 30:28
Why China is the shining light for regulation to follow
- ACAlan Chang
don't.
- HSHarry Stebbings
When we look at energy regulations, infrastructure, um, policy, which country do you think stands out as an exemplary that we should follow?
- ACAlan Chang
China.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why is that?
- ACAlan Chang
Just look at the energy price, right? So like, if you look at the, what the Brits and Europeans pay in terms of, you know, cost per kilowatt hour, it's roughly 25 to 30 dollar cents. In the US is 10 to 15 dollar cents. In China, it's eight dollar cents. And if you look at energy per capita, right, uh, US basically hasn't grown in the last 25 years. It's been flat. In China, it's gone up by seven times, and if you look at the build-up in China, right, like they have truly vertically integrated energy companies, like run by the state from generation to the grid, um, and, and distribution. And they built ... You know, whilst, you know, in the West, like there are people debating, "Oh, is renewables better? Is, you know, oil and gas better?" You know, they're, then there's like, it, it's becoming like a very political thing. In China, they built everything, right? In China, they deploy more solar than the, all Western economies combined. In China, they deployed more gas, right, more coal, (laughs) more grid. They've laid more cables and grid than all Western economies combined. So they're just building everything. Like they're just thinking, "Okay. We need to keep ..." Like clearly, they understand the importance of energy costs and they're just building everything. They're just ... Basically, it's common sense, right? So I, I think that's the, I think that's the, yeah, model economy we, we should, we should, we should follow for energy policy.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you stand by the belief that, yeah, we're all in the same WhatsApp groups and the s-, and everyone says, "Ah, but the level of talent coming out of Imperial and Cambridge and Oxford, absolutely we can parallel the US." Do you stand by that, on talent levels in the UK?
- ACAlan Chang
I think talent levels in the UK is good. Like ul- ultimately, higher education, like I, I personally received higher education in the UK, um, and I think it's, it's pretty good. Like I, I, I, I think it's world-class and, and ultimately, this is the key ingredient to, to build, you know, anything successful. So I do, I do, like although I'm short-term, I'm bearish on the UK, but long-term, I'm, I'm bullish.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What makes you bearish right now on the UK?
- ACAlan Chang
The current government's h- heading in the wrong direction.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why?
- ACAlan Chang
As I said, right, we need deep deregulation so it's easier to build, and you know, there's a lot of talk about growth, but it's just talk and no action.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I, respectfully, I don't know how you can be bearish in the short term and bullish in the long term. Like when you look at the kind of cyclical, structural decline that we're heading into, that is multi-decade actually and it's very difficult to reverse out of. So with respect, I don't know how you can be long-term bullish but short-term bearish.
- ACAlan Chang
I think a lot of people with common sense are realizing we're in a bad situation. And what makes me optimistic is because when I speak to people, there is some common sense, right? And hopefully, those people with common sense will, you know, elect a, a more sensible government in the future that will do the right thing.
- HSHarry Stebbings
With respect, do you think that's actually a fair (laughs) assessment though? I mean, right now, it looks like Nigel Farage and Reform will be that government, and actually, when you look at populous and, and the UK populous, transparently, it's, it, it's not the intellectual Matt Clifford that is the average person on the street.
- ACAlan Chang
I think what's key is the next government, 'cause u- ultimately, I think deregulation is ... You just need the will, like a s- very, very strong will to do it. And I think as long as, you know, the following governments can attract a top team around them and being advised the right, you know, regulations to look at and, and then delete or reform, I think, uh, I think we could do it.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you feel you have a political party home today? I feel kind of politically lost, if I'm honest, which is like I used to be a, a kind of Conservative. Now I don't feel any particular allegiance to the Conservatives. I'm the ????? to be honest. But I don't feel particularly strong belief in Nigel Farage and Reform. Uh, I think Labor's terrible, but I don't feel like I have a political home like I used to.
- ACAlan Chang
I mean, for me, I, I want to make sure there are people who have, who are competent to, to lead the country, right? I want to make sure the most competent individuals are, are leading the countries regardless of party.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Who would you most like to see?
- ACAlan Chang
Matt Clifford is a pretty good choice. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
Um, but yeah, I, I, I, yeah. I, I don't think there is ... Yeah. I, I, I, I'm probably in the same camp as
- 30:28 – 39:31
Interview Process: Green & Red Flags
- ACAlan Chang
you for now.
- HSHarry Stebbings
We said about talent in the UK.One thing that's always very hard with talent is detecting it, and part of that is the interview process. One of the big, and you've helped me again, you know, hire my chief of staff even. When you look at green flags in interview processes that excite you, what are some of the best signals that one can give in an interview process?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah. O- obviously beyond the, you know, usual skill sets, you know, which we, we hire for that role. Um, basically when I, when I explain to the candidate, you know, about what we're trying to build, uh, build at Fuse, our ambitions, how we want to be a number one energy company in the world, and the work, the hard work that it requires to build it, you know, you want to like ... What I want to, like what I usually see is like the body language, right, um, as well as their facial expression. Like are they leaning in (laughs) or they're leaning out? And you want to be hiring people who are leaning in.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I don't like bouncers either. You know when you look at someone's CV and it's like one year, one year, one year, one year.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah. That's, that's also not great.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah. Anything else where you're like, "Uh, not great." Fluffy CVs for me.
- ACAlan Chang
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
Like okay, you're hiring a marketing manager. I want to see, "I increased MQLs by 38%. I did that through these three core channels. I learned this about Facebook advertising, but then it saturated when we hit expand." I'm like, "Ooh, very detailed, like clear attribution-led data."
- ACAlan Chang
I, I would say very long CVs.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Is good?
- ACAlan Chang
Is bad.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Okay. It should be like a page? Like what should it be?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, I think it should be maximum a page. Like if Elon Musk can fill, put his CV in one page, so could you. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
Like I think, um ... Yeah, it reminds me of like, you know like your first ever CV, right, and you're trying to fill the page and you couldn't think of anything to put. And you've got to like put your under like special skills, like Microsoft Word.
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
It's got that type of vibe, right?
- HSHarry Stebbings
Professional Tiddlywinks player.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Other hobbies, skiing, art. I fucking hate art. (laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
I totally agree with you. Um, okay. So we have that. How do you structure your hiring process? I'm, I'm always looking to be better at hiring. How do you structure it, and what would be your biggest advice to me on how I should optimize mine?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, I think first define the skillsets you, you need, right? So for example, for a software engineer that could be, uh, coding skills, uh, system design, problem-solving, um, and as well as culture fit. So we basically find, okay, who is the best coder in the company? Who is the best at system design? And then we assign those people to assess those skills individually, and then at the end of the process they kind of gets a grade, right, for every single step. Um, and if they are above a certain threshold, then we, we, we offer, and that's also how we decide on, you know, how, how much we offer, right? So as a company, we don't actually use any comp bands. We simply look at the grades and the higher the grade, the higher our bid, because ultimately we're buying skills.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Wow, so, sorry, this is really interesting. So you will essentially say, "Okay, we are looking for a software engineer and we need, um ..." I don't know, choose your language, whatever you're going for. "We need X language." And then you will rank, rank them out of ten on that one core skill, and then you will assign them a salary as a result of that.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, a- actually we don't even look at language. So although our whole backend is in Python, um, we, we will hire any backend developer even if they know nothing about Python. So it's a coding challenge in the language of their choice. Um, it's system design which is about how you architect the whole system. Uh, problem-solving which is have they successfully solved the problem in the past, whatever that is. Uh, as well as culture fit, right? And basically if they get, let's say, straight As in every single one, we bid a very, very high offer.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Okay. Totally get that. They are a seven out of ten. Should you just not hire them? Like should it not be like an all-in, we should give them the top whack or don't hire them at all?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, so our, our threshold is, uh, we will hire anything above a B. So if you get straight Bs, you'll still get an offer, but the offer will be much lower and it could be below what you're making today. And you know, if you have a better offer elsewhere, like good luck to you.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why would you do that? That feels like to me like in venture we'd say that's like a meh deal.
- ACAlan Chang
Like typically a B is still pretty good, (laughs) right? A is like exceptional. So a B is like this is where we've ... where the bar is, right? And I would say like that you can still be a very solid performer if you're, if you're a B. But if you're a straight ... The difference between a straight B candidate and a straight A candidate is simply compensation, right? And for straight A candidates, we have made offers that are, you know, much higher than what they make today. And even if we know that, that's okay because we want to make sure we're a no-brainer for you, such that you will never think about leaving.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How fast do you know when someone's not very good?
- 39:31 – 40:58
Lesson from Nik about ownership and excuses
- ACAlan Chang
very well.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What non-obvious behavior do you not tolerate even if they're really high performers?
- ACAlan Chang
So I remember, back when I was at Revolut, um, I was explaining to Nick. I actually forgot what, what, what it was but, you know, I failed at something, and I was ex- trying to explain to him why I failed. Then Nick sent me this article, right? It was about Jobs, um, explaining the difference between a, a janitor and a VP. So the story goes, if the janitor fails to collect the trash because the locks on the office was changed, Jobs would say, "Okay, that's irritating, but that's acceptable because you're the janitor." Somewhere between a janitor and the VP, reasons stop mattering. So every single time when one of the leaders at Fuse explains to me why they failed and they couldn't, couldn't hit a certain goal, I send them this article.
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs) So can you just help me understand what the takeaway from that is? It's like, "You know what? It doesn't fucking matter why you failed. The point is you failed in this fashion."
- ACAlan Chang
Correct, correct.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What do you take from that? Like, excuses don't matter?
- ACAlan Chang
Excuses don't matter. If you're a leader of the com- if you, if you're a leader of an area in the company, excuses don't matter. If you succeed, you get all the praise. If you fail, you get all the blame, and it does not matter why you failed.
- 40:58 – 48:15
The signs of truly top performing people in a team
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you worry that you're ever too harsh on people? I, I, I, I get told I am 'cause I would say things like this, "I don't give a r- I don't care about your excuses."
- ACAlan Chang
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
It's like, "I care about outcomes."
- ACAlan Chang
Mm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And, and people say that I'm too harsh, I'm too direct. Do you worry?
- ACAlan Chang
Hmm, I don't care what they think. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs) And you don't worry about them leaving? Because, like, for my best performers, for your use, when Nick at Revolut is saying that to you, Nick should be terrified that you leave. You're a core part of that business. I, I want to protect you and look after you, and when you say, "Dude, there's a lot of reasons why. I don't know, Poland didn't work in the expansion and da da da da da," okay, Alan, like, "You're my guy. I'm here for you and thank you for explaining that to me." I want to protect my best performers.
- ACAlan Chang
Well, I would say I don't think that's protecting, right? That's just hiding, you know, information from your best performers, right? Ultimately, your best performers should... Like, they're, they're, they're smart. They're hardworking. Like, they're not dumb, right? Initially, I took that feedback to heart and I was resisting at first. I thought it was unfair, right? But then I thought more about it and it made me a better person, right? So I thank him for, for sending me the article. Like, what I re- what, what I found is, like, usually top performers internalizes negative feedback very well. They take negative feedback to heart and they find ways to improve, right? Um, if there are people who don't take negative feedback well-... I don't think they're top performers.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What was the bit of feedback that you found most hard to take?
- ACAlan Chang
Y- you have to assume the p- the person giving you negative feedback have your- have the best intentions for you. And once you realize that, and it's nothing personal, like, you can take all negative feedback, even if it's very harsh.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Was there a bit of feedback that you found the hardest to give?
- ACAlan Chang
No. Because like, it's- it's very important you have- you create a culture of truth-seeking, right? And the truth is very ugly, you know, might hurt someone's feelings. You should still say it because you'll make that person, you know, make that person better.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Is there anything that you shouldn't say because it ultimately doesn't make them better?
- ACAlan Chang
If I- if when I realize a person... If I keep giving negative feedback to a person and they haven't improved, then I, I just stop bothering. Then, you know, they can leave the company.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you think there's a bit of a culture of fear around you? Like if you look... Again, I love Nick, and I think he's a phenomenal leader and one of the greatest founders that I've ever interviewed, ever, and I've done a thousand founder interviews. Truly the best. Um, but I mean, let's not cut, you know, I don't know, whatever the right term. Let's not shy away from it.
- ACAlan Chang
Mm-hmm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
People are scared of him. Is it bad to have a fear-based leadership?
- ACAlan Chang
What matters is people need to feel like they can speak the truth.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And you do with Nick?
- ACAlan Chang
Yes. I tell him if I think it's a bad idea, I tell Nick. Now, he can disagree with me, and sometimes that changes mine, sometimes I don't, right? Um, but I do tell him the truth.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What specific decision on product or strategy do you think moved the needle most with Revolut, when you think about those decisions? Was there one, like, "We have to go into crypto, we have to go into stock trading, we have to do X country, we have to invest in X"?
- ACAlan Chang
No, because the answer is we need to do everything. (laughs) I think, uh, yeah, I think as we build a company, we realize there's so many opportunities, and we just need to pursue all of them.
- HSHarry Stebbings
That advice is completely counter what every founder is being told, that you need to focus, you need to create a product for a very specific customer base, and you need to deliver that excellent experience, and focus, focus, focus.
- ACAlan Chang
Yep.
- HSHarry Stebbings
There's so many shiny objects. You can't pursue them all.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
That advice is completely counter that. What would you say to them listening, who are now confused? (laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
I, I, I actually think there are not enough ambitious founders out there, 'cause ultimately, the, the, the throughput of the company, like how many parallel work streams you can take at a, at a given time is dictated by number of great leaders you have in the company. And the zero sum mindset would be, "Okay, I only have that many leaders in the company," but in some case, it could just be the founders himself, um, "And therefore, I'm just gonna pursue these things." The expansionist mindset would be, "I need to hire more leaders in my company so I can pursue more," right? So I'll argue we're in the business of expanding things, right? So rather than you try and play the zero sum game, we should think, try and figure out ways to, you know, hire more leaders so we can pursue more.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What does your direct report structure look like? Uh, yeah, Jensen has popularized the having, you know, 50, and being so involved in the minutiae of a large amount of the business, in terms of surface area. To what extent do you agree with that, versus the delegate to fantastic leadership, like you kind of mentioned there, in terms of increasing surface area?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah. So I would say, yeah, I, I think I have many direct reports. I, I, I don't know how many. Uh, I, I would probably lean towards what Jensen's doing, 'cause ultimately, I do- I don't even think of them, think of them as direct reports, right? I think of them as like, you know, going back to the self-guiding missile analogy, right? You don't need to manage those people, right? Like, you discuss and you, you debate about the target, right? But once you both agree on the target, then that's it, right? Um, you don't really have to manage them. You just monitor and make things are okay, but that's about it.
- 48:15 – 54:00
You need to work weekends to win
- ACAlan Chang
And whereas-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you expect people to work weekends?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, I'd, I'd say like, as I said before, like, this is, this is very hard. Like, there's only way to do it... Like, we, we, we're going against, you know, big, big, big energy companies with like huge balance sheets, you know, billions in revenue. Only way to win is, you know, with much smaller balance sheets, much less cash, much less resources, is, is work ethic.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Work ethic gets you a long way. In the early days, you built the MVP with just a million bucks, right? M- before any outside funding. Can you talk to me about that and what you advise founders on MVPs and going to V1 with minimal resources, having done that?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, so, yeah, so at the time we wanted to build a full stack energy company and we had a million bucks. So, what we need for full stack energy company, we need power generation, we need a license, we need someone to help us guide through regulation, we need a qualified trader, so you need to be qualified to, to trade energy, uh, and we also need a qualified electrician. So, we found a single wind turbine in north of Scotland, um, that the seller was willing to sell for 750K. Uh, we found a license for 75K. Um, we convinced, uh, the former CEO of Ofgem to become an advisor with just equity and no cash, um, and my co-founder, Charles, became a qualified trader and electrician. So we acquired all the skills (laughs) and assets we need to build a MVP full stack energy company. So my advice is, I don't think you need a lot of capital. You don't need a huge seed round to get started. You can just do it-
- HSHarry Stebbings
If you can, why don't you? There's so much venture money say, dude. If you can, why don't you?
- ACAlan Chang
I think you could. If you could, you should.
- HSHarry Stebbings
But you could. Anyone would've written you, like you could say, "I'm, I'm doing a fart app." (laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
I'll give you 10 million bucks. (laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
Um...
- HSHarry Stebbings
The disgraceful thing about you, Alan, is I would've given you money for almost anything but this. (laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
And this is like my biggest lesson and mistake, I listen to you and I just die inside, honestly. I do also remember, dude, you had the token element, which just, it was hard to digest.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
We chatted about wh- when you were raising your first round. Um... God, anyway. Um, and one of your investors said that I had to ask you, no it wasn't you, it was actually Antoine, who said, "Is it true that you rocked up to Balderton with your Ferrari parked outside and then strolled in and said, 'I'm gonna raise a $60 million seed round?'"
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, there's some truth to that, yeah. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
How did it go down?
- ACAlan Chang
I think, uh, I think it went pretty well. Um...
- HSHarry Stebbings
You raised 78-
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... in the first round.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, I think, uh, they really, really liked the concept and, and I think what they realized is, is a pretty good strategy. And I, I realized after the, you know, a lot, a lot of the investments, I think they, they've just... because they made so much money from the Revel investment, they just keep investing ex-Revel teams.
- HSHarry Stebbings
You ra- you, 78 at 140, 150?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
You diluted like half.
- ACAlan Chang
Uh, it wasn't just equity.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Ah, of course it was the tokens.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah, this is where I fucking hated it. Sorry, dude.
- 54:00 – 55:45
Every single year we 10x revenue - now at ~$400M
- ACAlan Chang
a better one.
- HSHarry Stebbings
You raised a recent round, uh, 75 billion.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Um, that, that's often what's referred to as a suicide round, which is like a very high price with not actually that much money going into the business.
- ACAlan Chang
Mm-hmm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
W- why, why is that a good round for the company?
- ACAlan Chang
First of all, the company... Yeah, so the company is doing over 400 million revenue, annualized revenue.
- HSHarry Stebbings
400 million?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah, and-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Wh- when was day one revenue? Like what's that slope?
- ACAlan Chang
So day one, so in terms of financial year, we increase our revenue 10X every year since inception.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And day one was d- I'm just trying to get a s-
- ACAlan Chang
Well, it was, well, the first year was two million pounds, so about three-... just start, start for $3 million. Second year was 20 pounds, so roughly $25, 26. And then this year, we're going to end at t- over 200 pounds. So yeah, roughly 260.
- HSHarry Stebbings
You can't 10X again.
- ACAlan Chang
We'll try. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs) Where do you think you will land? If we, me and you have a bet, okay, and we'll sit here next, press-
- ACAlan Chang
I mean, like, our, our, our business plan is, you know, much less than 10X, right, for next year. Um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Is it 5X?
- ACAlan Chang
Something around there. Um, but we'll, we'll, we'll still shoot for 10. I think we can-
- HSHarry Stebbings
What would be the biggest barrier to you hitting a billion?
- ACAlan Chang
(sighs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
Like, there's one reason. What is it?
- ACAlan Chang
I think it's speed of hiring quality engineering. That, that's the biggest barrier. Yeah, there's no capital. It's quality of
- 55:45 – 57:33
Why Eastern European engineers are the best
- ACAlan Chang
engineering.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why do you like hiring Eastern European engineers?
- ACAlan Chang
Because, uh, culturally, they, I think they favor technical education. Um, and they have very strong work ethic.
- HSHarry Stebbings
With the success that you've had, dude, what have been your biggest reflections on how you think about your relationship to money?
- ACAlan Chang
Um, I think, for me, o- obviously money's great. Um, but beyond levels of personal consumption, and I personally don't spend that much money, um, I think it becomes a means to an end. And-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can I be blunt and ask you, what is that level? And this is for me. I, I'm not sure what that is. I don't want to be on the hedonic treadmill, but I do think about that.
- ACAlan Chang
I'd say number's probably like five.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you remember when you made your first real money?
- ACAlan Chang
I do remember, yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How did it feel?
- ACAlan Chang
Felt surreal. Like, my bank, my, my Revolut account went from-
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
... you know, basically no money and it 1,000X overnight. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
Did you sell much of your Revolut?
- ACAlan Chang
No. I s- only sold for what I needed to, only for personal consumption. I'm still very bullish on the company.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How big can Revolut be? I often don't say publicly, it's like easily a 250 billion dollar business.
- ACAlan Chang
I think it's too small.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Pause. Without the US, with the US, it's a 500 billion dollar business.
- ACAlan Chang
Uh, I think, I think, I think we're a trillion-dollar company.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you think you'll be able to crack the US?
- ACAlan Chang
If someone's going to do it, it's Nikolai.
- HSHarry Stebbings
At what price would you start to sell?
- ACAlan Chang
Trillion. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs) Um,
- 57:33 – 59:12
What People Get Wrong About Having Money
- HSHarry Stebbings
I totally get that. What does no one know about having money that people should know about having money?
- ACAlan Chang
Actually buys you quite a bit of time back.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Where do you spend to save time?
- ACAlan Chang
I think having an assistant helps you save a lot of time. Like, so you don't have to do, waste a lot of time doing a lot of the chores. Um, I think travel. Like, flying coach just kills your... I think it just wastes two days, right? So just, I think it's worth flying, flying, flying business helps you, you know, you can work on a plane and not feel terrible, you know, the day after, right? So I think, you know, traveling better, eating better, and not wasting time on things outside the business. Like, you could buy, buy a lot of time back.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Does it change your relationship, personal relationships?
- ACAlan Chang
Maybe for the better, right? You stop thinking about, you know, price tags. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
Uh, which is good, right? You just, you know, go wherever you want, eat wherever you were, uh, wherever you want. Um, so I think it does help in a positive way. But yeah, but also like you, you n- then you need to think like, you know, who your friends truly are, right?
- HSHarry Stebbings
Have you ever had that question?
- ACAlan Chang
Luckily, all my existing friends have not changed how they treat me, you know, after, you know, some success. Um, but I have had a lot of long time (laughs) from, you know, people I went to school with.
- 59:12 – 1:05:59
Quick-Fire Round
- HSHarry Stebbings
Dude, I want to ask a quickfire round. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts.
- ACAlan Chang
Sure.
- HSHarry Stebbings
So what investor do you not have that you would most like to have?
- ACAlan Chang
One person. You. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you d- (laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs) Do you know what's really hard about what I do?
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
It's that I'm friends with the greatest founders.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And in a lot of cases, like you've invested in Project Europe, and I have the joys of like knowing you.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And it really is a joy.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And I'm like, "What the fuck? Why am I not invested in these companies?" (laughs)
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I have this with like Matty at Eleven Labs.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And I'm just like, "Ugh." It almost happened too early for me. Does that make sense? It's like I became friends with these people and had the chance to invest-
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... when I was a kid.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And I didn't know what I was doing.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And had I had that now, it would've been very different. But it is life.
- ACAlan Chang
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Um, rank these in order of importance, luck, talent, and timing.
- ACAlan Chang
I think timing, talent, luck.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why timing first?
- ACAlan Chang
I think if you get the timing wrong, even if you're the best team in the world, you're not gonna make it. Like, for example, I don't think Fuse could have been built 10 years ago. I think Fuse is only possible because the requirements have changed, right? Because the renewable penetration in the grid is so high, and the skills you need to, you know, the ability to manage renewables is so different to how we used to generate and consume power. If you look at Revolut, um, you know, I think Revolut is only possible because of the EMI license. And the EMI license was...... created, you know, just a couple of years before Revolut was founded. So if, I don't think Revolut would have been possible, you know, 10 years before, you know, 2014. So I do, I do think timing matters. And then the second thing is talent. Like, I think these are two prerequisites. So if you have good timing, if you have good talent, I think luck will also come.
Episode duration: 1:06:09
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Transcript of episode T4-sSCxiU4c
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