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Rob Lacher: How I Scaled to $600M AUM; Hiring Tips for VCs; Venture Capital in Europe vs USA | E999

Rob Lacher founded Visionaries Club in 2019, in just 3 years he has scaled the firm to $600M AUM and backed some of Europe’s best including Xentral, Personio, Miro, and Ledgy. Prior to Visionaries, Rob founded the fashion platform AMAZE in 2014 which he sold to Zalando, and founded the European seed and growth stage venture capital fund La Famiglia in 2016. --------------------------------------------------- Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 0:44 Who is Rob Lacher? 4:53 VC Hiring Tips 15:09 How to Pick Deals 24:09 Reserves Management 38:14 Do VCs add value? 41:41 Selling Secondary 43:21 Rob’s Relationship to Money 44:22 Rob’s Biggest Mistake 48:50 Venture in USA vs Europe 57:17 Rob’s Dream for the Future of VC 59:25 Quick-Fire Round ----------------------------------------- In Today’s Episode with Rob Lacher We Discuss: 1.) From Novice Tennis Player to Leading European Investor: When Rob realized beating Federer wasn’t an option, how did he make his way into the world of venture capital? When did Rob know he wanted to be a VC? What did Rob learn about himself after leaving La Famiglia? What characteristics make business partners compatible? 2.) The Secret to Building a Fund? Hire People With No Experience: What does Rob think is the hardest element of building a firm? What advice would Rob give to emerging managers when starting their firms? What is the single biggest mistake that Rob sees fund managers make? Why does Rob prefer to hire people with no VC experience? 3.) The Red Ocean of European Venture: Does Rob think the Series A product in Europe is any good? How would Rob advise founders debating a US multi-stage fund or a European offer? If Rob could choose one European board member, who would it be and why? In Rob’s dream, what would the Europe venture ecosystem look like in 2028? How does Rob think Europe’s family institutions can become Europe’s Google? 4.) Lessons on Investing From a Pro: Where does Rob think VCs, founders, and boards are misaligned? When Rob invests, how central of a role does price actually pay? What is Rob’s single biggest investing mistake? How did it impact his mindset and approach? What are the three ways reserve management strategy has changed? What does Rob absolutely hate about VC? ---------------------------------------- Subscribe on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3j2KMcZTtgTNBKwtZBMHvl?si=85bc9196860e4466 Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-twenty-minute-vc-20vc-venture-capital-startup/id958230465 Follow Harry Stebbings on Twitter: https://twitter.com/HarryStebbings Follow 20VC on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/20vc_reels Follow 20VC on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@20vc_tok Visit our Website: https://www.20vc.com Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://www.thetwentyminutevc.com/contact ---------------------------------------------------- #RobLacher #LaFamiglia #HarryStebbings #venturecapital

Rob LacherguestHarry Stebbingshost
Apr 7, 20231h 10mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:44

    Intro

    1. RL

      We always complain that we don't have a Google, Facebook, Amazon, or Tencent, who are-

    2. HS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RL

      ... the most profitable companies in their clusters, and they are the biggest tech drivers next to VCs. But what we have in Europe is 90% of our companies are family businesses, they are highly profitable, they are run by entrepreneurs that can make fast decisions, take more risks, think long term, that have an incredible alpha knowledge in their domain, and that own global supply chains. If you take those family businesses together, I think this is our Google.

    4. HS

      (upbeat music) Rob, my friend, we have been friends for quite a few years now, so thank you so much for joining me.

    5. RL

      Thanks for having me. It's my honor and pleasure.

    6. HS

      Now, uh, I wanna start, I spoke to so many of your friends, and they all told me about your, uh, ability to dominate the tennis court.

    7. RL

      (laughs)

    8. HS

      Uh, but,

  2. 0:44 – 4:53

    Who is Rob Lacher?

    1. HS

      uh, (laughs) how did you make your way into the world of venture once you realized that beating Federer wasn't an option?

    2. RL

      (laughs) Good one. I wish I was more talented in tennis, then everything would've been much easier, I guess. Um, look, if I have to put it into one sentence, I guess it's always being honest to myself to do what I love doing and really not compromising on it. I think, you know, if you look how it really happened, of course, the dots have connected in a more complex way with, with many ups and downs. So when I finished university, I was actually about to start a company and then got talked into Boston Consulting Group-

    3. HS

      (laughs)

    4. RL

      ... by a certain Jochen Engert. Uh, and maybe you know Jochen, he ended up being the founder of FlixBus, which is now the biggest bus mobility company globally. So he's a very close friend. He was my mentor back then, is also part of Visionaries. I was, again, the mentor of Max Viessmann, who's on the total other side of entrepreneurship. So Max inherited a 100-year-old family business with, um, 14,000 employees, 4 billion in revenues, and had to take it to the next level. And the thing that we found out back then was that there's absolutely no connect between old and new economy entrepreneurs, even though 90% of European companies are family businesses, right? So we always thought bringing those networks closer together, because we think it unlocks a lot of power in B2B, took a little until we did this. So I started my own small company in the mobile space, which I sold to Zalando, and then ended up doing angel investments. And from those angel investments, we said, "Why don't we pool our money in a small seed fund?" So that's how I started La Familia with a group of friends, which was a small 40 million angel fund back then, that we invested into 30 B2B companies. And I guess we were like-

    5. HS

      Did you know at that time you wanted to be a VC? Then you'd had the, you'd done some angel investments, you know what, "I enjoy doing this." But you're like, "I wanna be a VC."

    6. RL

      Yeah. You know, the first time I heard of venture capital was when I was 22 at university, and I thought after the lecture-

    7. HS

      (laughs)

    8. RL

      ... "Fuck, this must be the most amazing job on Earth because you're looking into new companies every day, speaking to young, smart people, which are building the biggest thing in their life, and you have the privilege to choose who you wanna work with and work with a kind of, um, an array of people and not just focus on one idea." So I thought maybe when I'm 50, 60, and in case I succeed, I could become a VC. But I never thought that I would kind of become an entrepreneur in VC in the middle of my 20s without any experience. So I stumbled into it over angel investing, but I figured it out it was, it was my biggest passion, it turned into my biggest passion.

    9. HS

      You mentioned La Familia there. Um, and you know, you obviously left La Familia to start Visionaries.

    10. RL

      Yeah.

    11. HS

      What did you learn about yourself from leaving La Familia? Like, I think I learned about myself from leaving Strive with Fred, which is like, actually, he was fantastic at so many things.

    12. RL

      Yeah.

    13. HS

      But it meant that I didn't have to do them, and actually-

    14. RL

      Yeah.

    15. HS

      ... I should've been doing them. And actually-

    16. RL

      Yeah.

    17. HS

      ... I was just comfortable, and so I didn't force myself to be uncomfortable. Do you know what I mean?

    18. RL

      Yeah. Yeah, sure.

    19. HS

      But I should've, and that's why I run every day, 'cause-

    20. RL

      Yeah.

    21. HS

      ... I like to feel uncomfortable. (laughs)

    22. RL

      (laughs)

    23. HS

      What did you learn about yourself?

    24. RL

      Look, that's a great question. And you know, I'm, I'm still managing the first La Familia fund, and I'm incredibly proud of what we've built with the team. So we've invested in 30 companies, uh, many of them have turned unicorns or decacorns, like Deel, Presonio, Schoko, uh, Forte, where we've had the privilege to be seed investors. And believe me, it hasn't been an easy decision, then saying, you know, if you've put all your energy in something, building it, if you invented it, if you kind of, you know, put risk in it, contrarian thoughts to, to say you want to continue in a different setup. But I was at the beginning of my 30s, um, and I realized that it's my biggest passion to be an entrepreneur and VC, and I wanted to do this for the next 20, 30 years. So the one thing you shouldn't do is compromise on the partnership setup, because it's a very, very long term, um, game. And with Sebastian, who I founded Visionaries with, um, he has been a long friend, so we've worked on many deals together. He was my first LP in the first La Familia fund.

    25. HS

      (laughs)

    26. RL

      So we, we did, uh, companies like Veii and other investments together, and he's a fabulous entrepreneur. And when he became available after selling Amoveli after six years, it was basically a great setup to team up. And on the other side, you know, with Jeanette, um, I, I really love working on, with her, and I was the one also pulling her into our group when we started, uh, the, the, the whole La Familia idea. But we're also incredibly different on how we look into deals, how we would run a company, how we would take things to the next level. So for me-

    27. HS

      Is that

  3. 4:53 – 15:09

    VC Hiring Tips

    1. HS

      not a strength? You know, I'm always hiring team members now, and I'm trying to figure out the right composition, to be honest. (laughs) And I, I, is that not a strength that they come from a different perspective and look at deals in a different way?

    2. RL

      It is. I think that, you know, the best thing you can do when you partner in a founding team is take risks with someone that is a totally different ingredient than you have. And that's what we did, and I think that's... The fund is now at 10 times the money that we invested, and it's doing well.

    3. HS

      (laughs)

    4. RL

      But on the other side, you know, if you wanna be in a setup for 20, 30 years, you need to have kind of a certain overlap of, of, of how you work together. And I think my, my, my sense of this is take risks when you go into those setups, but also be 100% brutally honest to yourself if it's sustaining and if it's the right setup for everyone. And I think it was a, was a great decision that we, that we took that way, because now the first fund, we're still managing it together. It's a success. Um, we've built Visionaries within three years, a great fund, now 600 million under management. And I think, um, Yulit and Jeanette are doing an amazing job taking La Familia to the next level in their second and third funds, based on the track record-

    5. HS

      I-

    6. RL

      ... that, that we've built.

    7. HS

      I have to ask final thing, and then we'll move on to some, (laughs) some quite meaty topics.

    8. RL

      (laughs)

    9. HS

      Um, but it's, when you get asked advice from managers raising today and who are starting partnerships today-

    10. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    11. HS

      ... what advice do you give them on the partnership dynamic, having experienced what you have now with different partners and having-

    12. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    13. HS

      ... you know, founded two funds?What should all f- partnerships consider before becoming partners?

    14. RL

      I think you should really spend time together about the truth of what's your purpose and what you really wanna do and, and, a- and why you're doing it together, and be super honest about your strengths, your weaknesses, what excites you, and, um, kind of the reason why you're doing it. And I think the more complementary kind of ingredients that you can find in a person, the better it is, but you need to be aligned on the, on the core, on, on how to do everything. And I think the best thing how I did it with, for example, Sebastian, was we really went to the deepest level of what we love doing, and, uh, and we were super aligned that being an entrepreneur in VC, having all degrees of freedom to build this and doing this for a period, hopefully, of 20, 30 years was really what, um-

    15. HS

      (laughs)

    16. RL

      ... what excited both of us.

    17. HS

      Do you consider yourself an entrepreneur or an investor?

    18. RL

      Um, that's the daily balance.

    19. HS

      Yeah.

    20. RL

      So, I think, you know, the, what, what gets me up in the morning is, um, basically, on the one hand side, we, you know, we, we're entrepreneurs. We need to build the company that we're investing with, right? And that's like just building any other company. There's not, there's no team, there's no strategy, there's no office, there's no website. So, uh, it's basically just like any other company. You can spend 150% of your time doing it. And on the other side, we're doing investments, and our job is to find the best companies. But I think exactly this combination, that's why we never decided to become partner of another fund. But having those degrees of freedom to build it the way you think is right, it's, it's what excites me, it's what gives me energy, and I think it's what makes me a good investor for founders because I have an entrepreneurial passion of building something and not just an abstract investor.

    21. HS

      I think it's what investors don't anticipate, though, when they spin out. Like the firm build aspect-

    22. RL

      Yeah.

    23. HS

      ... is like... I mean, it's 50% of my day or more, and I'm sure-

    24. RL

      Yeah.

    25. HS

      ... it's probably 50% of yours, everything-

    26. RL

      Yeah.

    27. HS

      ... around team management and everything we discussed.

    28. RL

      Yeah.

    29. HS

      I think people forget that.

    30. RL

      Yeah.

  4. 15:09 – 24:09

    How to Pick Deals

    1. HS

      I think, you know... and I didn't mean it pushing back, but it does help with LPs-

    2. RL

      Yeah.

    3. HS

      ... like being able to get into hype deals bluntly shows access and it shows ability to win allocation in the best of the-

    4. RL

      Yeah.

    5. HS

      ... the best of the best real time with no data deals.

    6. RL

      (laughs)

    7. HS

      Do you know what I mean?

    8. RL

      Yeah, yeah.

    9. HS

      Like if we operate in a world of no data, the hypest deals, uh, would seem to be the most attractive-

    10. RL

      Yeah.

    11. HS

      ... at this real-time moment. Do you know what I mean?

    12. RL

      I think it's fair, maybe build a blend, right? If you show that you can get allocations in some of those great hype deals, it's fine if it's 20% of your portfolio, but I think it's so much more impressive if you have chosen companies that others haven't seen and after five years, it turns out to be one of the most successful companies in the market. I think that's

    13. HS

      Well, this is- ... quite interesting.

    14. RL

      ... interesting. I actually spoke to a multi-stage GP earlier this morning, and this probably didn't reflect in the schedule, so it's a surprise. Um, and they said the interesting thing with visionaries is, like when you look at their early stage, like practice- Yeah.

    15. HS

      ... they believe that actually you generate returns at early stage by picking when really everyone else is much more focused on breadth and volume-

    16. RL

      Yeah.

    17. HS

      ... which I think is probably true. A... how do you think about the picking at seed and whether it's really possible to honestly do a concentrated strategy at seed-

    18. RL

      Yeah.

    19. HS

      ... and pick well?

    20. RL

      I mean, I think on the extreme, um, either you run the Y Combinator seed kind, kind of model where you're just, um, basically bui- building a broad portfolio and the likelihood to have like one or two of those amazing, so where UiPath kind of outliers is almost given, so you're basically building a seed index on the really best of the best founders. But then you, you can't get your, your ownership that if something is really a crazy home run, you get to 20X your fund or 25X, so you'll have a incredibly good performance and, and those funds are doing super well. That's the one game, and the other one is like building a more concentrated portfolio where-

    21. HS

      The truth is you won't even get that though. Like if you look at doing-

    22. RL

      Yeah.

    23. HS

      ... 100 to 250K or even 400K-

    24. RL

      Yeah.

    25. HS

      ... in a UI path at seed, uh, listen, that will do unbelievably well. But if you have 100 million fund and you did a 250K check-

    26. RL

      Yeah.

    27. HS

      ... poof, 100X is 25 million.

    28. RL

      Yeah.

    29. HS

      400X is your fund.

    30. RL

      Yeah.

  5. 24:09 – 38:14

    Reserves Management

    1. HS

      and so my question to you is, like, how does your reserves management change today-

    2. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    3. HS

      ... versus years of old? Because it's shifting, for sure.

    4. RL

      Yeah. It's actually not in the current fund. I mean, we, we have 60% reserve in a seed fund to, to follow on and 60-

    5. HS

      You have 60% reserve?

    6. RL

      Sixty percent-

    7. HS

      Wow.

    8. RL

      ... reserve.

    9. HS

      So 40% is initial?

    10. RL

      40% is initial. 60%-

    11. HS

      How big's the seed fund?

    12. RL

      ... is reserved. It's, uh, the latest one is 150 million.

    13. HS

      Wow, so that's-

    14. RL

      Before, uh...

    15. HS

      So you've got, like, 70 million for initial chairs or 65 million for initial chairs?

    16. RL

      Yeah.

    17. HS

      Wow, that's not many.

    18. RL

      Yeah. And, I mean, we're, we're trying to build a focused portfolio there. And then, you know, typically you can follow on, uh-... in series A and in series B, you can do either full or half pro rata. It depends a little on the price points of the companies, round sizes. And I think, you know, why we haven't made a change to the current fund, I mean, what drivers do you have that would change your strategy? Either you have a m- momentum market, which we had the last two years-

    19. HS

      (laughs)

    20. RL

      ... but, um, we try to avoid investing into momentum companies. I think we have done none of them, and we try to be incredibly disciplined with our founder to raise what they really need to raise and what is necessary and not, like, go into momentum fundraisers where you basically just put in more money without knowing what it is. Second reason could be that you have, um, kind of not-good companies in your portfolio, and you still send them to family offices to raise money or kind of stretch.

    21. HS

      (laughs)

    22. RL

      We're writing off those companies and, and with the founders deciding not to continue if the model doesn't work, like why, why should we kind of encourage them to raise more money to just postpone the decision? And the third reason could be that you're such an amazing picker that you have so many companies in the fund that are outperforming that you not have enough money to put into that. And that's something where typically opportunity funds or the late-stage fund could then come into place to take care of it. So long story short, with our existing fund, we haven't made any change to the reserve m- amount, but we've done the new fund. We've increased the fund size to 150 million because the initial check siz- sizes are just getting, getting bigger.

    23. HS

      No, totally, I see that. I mean, you, you think about-

    24. RL

      How about yourself? I mean, with, uh, with your seed fund, um, and y- you have been in some great deals that, that have raised quite, quite significant up rounds.

    25. HS

      Yeah, I, I think about it really in two types of deals that we do. One is, uh, where we like to have a really meaningful check size. So we have 33 million in the early stage and 107 in the, you know, explorer fund, which is really series A and B.

    26. RL

      Uh-

    27. HS

      Um, for me, it's two deals. One is where we kind of try and take the lead as much as possible. So 750 to one and a half, very much similar to kind of how any traditional seed fund would wanna concentrate in the best companies. And then the other one is this, like, recognition that I'm doing two now, where bluntly, we're behind. Some amazing multi-stage fund, which we're gonna get to, is leading it, um, who I'm very close to in, in two different contexts. And actually, do I want a 250K check in one of the potential best breakout companies?

    28. RL

      Yeah.

    29. HS

      100% because I can absolutely earn the right to put more in over time, I hope. The question that I have is, um, time will tell. (laughs) In the best companies, do you have the ability to concentrate capital over time? I think that's my question to you.

    30. RL

      Mm-hmm.

  6. 38:14 – 41:41

    Do VCs add value?

    1. RL

      generic advice, but really going, going deep. I'm, I'm very impressed by him.

    2. HS

      Do you think VCs add value? We always get like, you, you know, shunned and mocked for our VC value. Do you think we add value?

    3. RL

      Yeah, it depends on how they operate. I, I think small boards are great because it forces everyone really, really to work hard because-

    4. HS

      Yeah.

    5. RL

      ... if you just have two board members and you don't work, then it's kind of obvious you're gonna fail.

    6. HS

      (laughs)

    7. RL

      Second thing is, uh, I think the best board or role that you can take as a VC for a founder is not trying to influence any decisions or to think that you have better ideas than the founder, but to be the best devil's advocate that you can with kind of opening up the option space for the founder, and that's mostly not yourself having an opinion. It's mostly bringing in people from your network. In our case, it's founders who have gone through that journey, who have solved their problems to really provide the best possible devil's advocate opinion so that the founder can choose what's the right decision to do. And I think those kind of boards are exceptional in, in giving the founders stability. But I think big boards can be really very difficult if you have 10 board members with 10 opinions which are all high-level (laughs) and, um, then the founder doesn't really know, like, which direction to choose, and then maybe the most dominant board member is forcing more the direction which the company needs to go. Yeah, I think then a board is a, is a pretty negative and terrible thing.

    8. HS

      Wh- wh- where do you think VCs and founders are misaligned? We sometimes see boards being misaligned with founders, they wanna sell, they don't wanna sell, the founder does want to sell. Where do you think that boards and, boards, kind of VCs and founders are misaligned? Uh...

    9. RL

      It's a great question. So, um, I think it's opportunism. So as, as a VC, you know, um, you can invest in 25 to 30 companies per fund-

    10. HS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RL

      ... and you can, and, you know, you really see who's a VC keeping their word when things go negative and if they still spend time with the, with the founders, it doesn't mean they should spend all of their time, and I mean, they should focus on the winners also in the portfolio, but they should also be there when things go, go, go, go negative. Um, but I think VCs can always, you know, opt out or, or be opportunistic to just focus on what's going well and where they see value in their portfolio, where founders have this one shot at that moment in time that they need to get it right. And I guess that's, that's a bit of a misalignment.

    12. HS

      I, I-

    13. RL

      How do you see it?

    14. HS

      Uh, I think around liquidity-

    15. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    16. HS

      ... um, is probably the biggest, whereby especially I think in the next few years it'll be really prominent which is whereby you have venture funds with not a lot of DPI situate-

    17. RL

      Yeah.

    18. HS

      ... and they know that they need DPI more than ever to raise the next funds.

    19. RL

      (laughs)

    20. HS

      Uh, liquidity opportunities come about in secondaries, in sales, in PE sales-

    21. RL

      Yeah.

    22. HS

      ... and actually it is suboptimal for the founder to have them sell a large portion of secondary or it's suboptimal for the founder to sell now, um, but the board absolutely want it-

    23. RL

      Yeah.

    24. HS

      ... or the VCs absolutely want it.

    25. RL

      Yeah.

    26. HS

      I think that's to me the biggest by far.

    27. RL

      Yeah.

    28. HS

      Um, and so I think, I think that's the one I worry about, especially over the coming years.

    29. RL

      Yeah. Yeah, but then it's again I think, you know, when you team up with the founder as a, as a VC and vice versa, it's more like, do you align in general on how you wanna build that company and, and, uh, and the journey that you wanna take? Sometimes it's more aggressive, sometimes it's less aggressive, but if founders wanna do 150 million secondary in the Series C round as has sometimes happened in the last two years, then I think it's a, it's a general misalignment of,

  7. 41:41 – 43:21

    Selling Secondary

    1. RL

      of a setup there that I wouldn't back as a, as a VC.

    2. HS

      (laughs) I, I, I feel quite sorry for people in those situations. I'm gonna get a lot of hate for that because everyone like demonizes them now. They were actively pursued to sell, like they didn't go into market and say, "I wanna sell 150 million."

    3. RL

      That's a very different s- thing then. I was not referring to that kind of group of people.

    4. HS

      Do you see what I mean though?

    5. RL

      Sure.

    6. HS

      I think often they're demonized and it's like-

    7. RL

      Yeah.

    8. HS

      ... these big growth funds like Rob will take your stock at any price-

    9. RL

      (laughs)

    10. HS

      ... and it's like well-

    11. RL

      Yeah.

    12. HS

      ... if I own 50%, sure I'll sell you 10%.

    13. RL

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, that's very fair. I was more referring to, so I think with... It's an interesting discussion, secondaries, and you know, we are supporting it a lot because many of our founders and also the founders that, that back us at Visionary say, you know, when they did a five million secondary or something in the space that you, that you have a little certainty that you don't need to have sleepless nights, maybe you can buy a house.

    14. HS

      You can buy a house, you can buy security, yeah.

    15. RL

      You know, you can send your kids to school. That makes you more relaxed to build a great company and take risks and be a good entrepreneur. But is it different if you're doing a secondary on that level or maybe also can be, it can be a little higher or lower, or if you basically take, uh, a fortune (laughs) off the table. (laughs) Uh-

    16. HS

      I don't know about you but I think a lot bigger now that I'm not worried about losing my home. I'm not rich, but I-

    17. RL

      Yeah.

    18. HS

      ... I don't worry about losing everything (laughs) -

    19. RL

      (laughs)

    20. HS

      ... which is nice.

    21. RL

      Yeah.

    22. HS

      Uh, and I, and now I go for bigger swings-

    23. RL

      Yeah.

    24. HS

      ... and do cooler shit. (laughs)

    25. RL

      (laughs)

    26. HS

      How, how do you think about your relationship to money? Do you think about it?

    27. RL

      Yeah. Look, so I think, um...... as, as odd as it sounds, but, uh, and, and I, and I'm, I don't wanna say that I'm absolutely not interested in money, but I think my, my north star is really, as I mentioned in the beginning, if I do what I love

  8. 43:21 – 44:22

    Rob’s Relationship to Money

    1. RL

      doing every day, and typically that's also the intersection of what you love doing, what you're typically good at, because otherwise-

    2. HS

      (laughs)

    3. RL

      ... (laughs) you don't love doing it, and that, that the rest will just come. And I think we're in a business with venture capital that if you do this over 20, 30 years, um, you don't need to worry that if, if you do well that, uh, that there will be a lot of financial flexibility. But, but that's not really what, what motivates me. I mean, I'm, I'm passionate every day working with founders, I'm passionate about our network, and, um, I'm taking a very long-term perspective of w- what we're building. We didn't do many secondaries, for example, in our portfolio, which would have been maybe attractive, because we still believe those companies have such a great, uh, kind of journey, um, ahead of them. So-

    4. HS

      What was your biggest mistake of 2020 to '22? Like mine was not doing secondaries in companies that I probably should have done secondaries in.

    5. RL

      Uh-

    6. HS

      What was yours?

    7. RL

      Between '20 and '22? Oh, God, so many. Uh-

    8. HS

      (laughs)

    9. RL

      ... pick one on the, on the fun side? (laughs)

  9. 44:22 – 48:50

    Rob’s Biggest Mistake

    1. RL

      Um, I think the biggest mistakes, if you're referring to market, maybe what I mentioned earlier, that some of the really great winners in our portfolio, maybe we should have backed at later stages even more aggressively, but we thought they were pricey, but maybe they weren't.

    2. HS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RL

      I think a mistake on company building, maybe starting to hire a great team a little too late. I mean, (laughs) you've, you have a story of your life.

    4. HS

      I could say it's a tough-

    5. RL

      Uh, but... (laughs)

    6. HS

      It is sort of. Uh, it's a, no but it's, it's a tough one, because you want to retain the quality bar, and you also wanna be cognizant that, you know, I don't, I don't like hire fast. That's not my style.

    7. RL

      Same here.

    8. HS

      Um, and I think you've got to go slow to go far.

    9. RL

      Yeah.

    10. HS

      Um, but then you also have to go.

    11. RL

      (laughs)

    12. HS

      (laughs) That's it, too. So, eh, it's really fucking hard.

    13. RL

      Yeah.

    14. HS

      Um, I don't buy remote, by the way.

    15. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    16. HS

      I think remote is one of the most poisonous things.

    17. RL

      Yeah.

    18. HS

      Um, (laughs) yeah, says deal investor.

    19. RL

      (laughs)

    20. HS

      (laughs) Sorry.

    21. RL

      Right, it's, it's not just remote work. It's, it's like, uh, international hiring, you know, if you wanna build, uh, any subsidiaries, you know, they're, they're, I think that's also where they're taking a lot of advantage from.

    22. HS

      Sure. No, I totally get you. We, we mentioned kind of relationships to money, we mentioned price there. When you're, like, investing, say, initial, how central a role does price actually play?

    23. RL

      Mm-hmm. That's a great question, because they can always have this argument, "Oh, great founders you need to back no matter what price point, and they go up." I think that's not the right way to approach it. The right way is, if you speak with a founder, so we, we've never had a negotiation at the seed stage with a founder about price point because we wanted to have 1% more or 2% less. Our dialogue is always, "Do we have the same understanding on what we think are the next steps to build a great company?" And I think if you have that alignment with a founder, you wanna go for a healthy journey that feels right for the company, to, to do a seed round, to have enough runway, to have a great position and optionality for a series A round. And if it's an incredible serial entrepreneur that has built the product already 10 times, maybe a five million round is fine, even though it's expensive, because you know they will have a product line-

    24. HS

      Sure.

    25. RL

      ... in six months, and maybe they can raise the next round with two million ARR and, uh, and, and fine. But on the other side, if you have a s- team, you know, that is raising, like, building a productivity tool for the first time, raising five million on 25 and they say, "Look, in one and a half years we wanna raise 30 million on 150 million," that's not for us, because we think, like, it's, it's not a healthy set-up for them to build a great company, because they don't have any optionality for the A round. So we're trying to figure out with the founders what's the right strategy to move forward, and we are very passive. We are not doing pricey deals. We are, we've passed on many companies that were doing those US rounds, because US funds, for them, it's easy.

    26. HS

      Don't worry, you've got me for that. (laughs)

    27. RL

      (laughs) That, that's kind of your, uh-

    28. HS

      A sweet spot.

    29. RL

      Your sweet spot, but l- look, those can be great companies, but if, if you're Ribit or if you're one of those US kids, like, you can pay six, eight million on a seed round fine, right? On, on good teams. We, we like to go a little deeper and understand, um-

    30. HS

      I, I think for me the question I always ask is if we think about funding rounds as like science experiments -

  10. 48:50 – 57:17

    Venture in USA vs Europe

    1. RL

      then at the 500 million-

    2. HS

      (laughs)

    3. RL

      ... valuation and still can't raise any more.

    4. HS

      But then I, and I oscillate between it, because I think, like, the biggest crime that Europe does often is we underfund our companies. We're in the future-

    5. RL

      Yeah.

    6. HS

      In the past, sorry, we have done, not last two years. (laughs)

    7. RL

      (laughs)

    8. HS

      But in the m- more distant past we have done where it's like you get a million, and a million gives you-

    9. RL

      Yeah.

    10. HS

      ... a chance to V1.

    11. RL

      Yeah.

    12. HS

      You don't get V2 with a million, in most cases-

    13. RL

      Yeah.

    14. HS

      ... uh, unless you're extremely capital efficient.

    15. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    16. HS

      And I think that's, you know, and most things, like we said, need the V2. They have some fail-

    17. RL

      Yeah.

    18. HS

      ... they need iteration, and so on the second or third thing. And I think the US is brilliant at giving you large enough runway to have V2, V3, V4.

    19. RL

      Yeah.

    20. HS

      Uh, but then also I go back to, fuck, I'm just oscillating between the two. Like Tobi at Shopify says to me the other day that the best businesses are built around constraints, whether artificial or real. Uh, and so I don't know the answer, I'm just chatting shit. (laughs)

    21. RL

      Yeah. Yeah, but look, it's, it's not about the exact answer, but it's about the, the truth. Like looking at a company, we, we take a 10, 15-year perspective, and, and, and like exclamate any cycle thinking or, or whatever. Just think about what is healthy and, uh, and, and, and what makes sense to build a great company. And I think that's something I hate about VC that, that we're, um... I mean, there are 1,000 ways to be a great entrepreneur, and we have LPs who have built family businesses over 100 years, we have people who have bootstrapped companies, and we have the aggressive VC-driven founders. But I think in the VC space there's too much hype about what's right, what's not right. As a founder, just think totally independently, "How much money do I need? Which people do I wanna hire?" Um, and, and kind of what is my, "What are my milestones in the next one or two years?" And, and then raise the money that you need, and not, not overraise. Maybe overraise a little bit to have a little more runway. It will always put you in an incredible good position to raise the next round if you do well. And believe me, I think you can optimize so much for ownership in the later rounds if you really kill it and the company goes through the roof and you have great metrics. That's when business models start to be predictable, and that's when all the growth-stage funds, I mean, that's where you can really optimize valuation and kind of protect ownership. But I think it's not that we seize or, or A-stage, uh, raising, raising too ballsy.

    22. HS

      Y- you mentioned the family offices. Um, there's many great entrepreneurs with incredible family offices and institutions built in Europe.

    23. RL

      Yeah.

    24. HS

      You've said before to me, uh, that they can become Europe's Google.

    25. RL

      Yeah.

    26. HS

      How can they become Europe's Google, Rob?

    27. RL

      (laughs)

    28. HS

      (laughs)

    29. RL

      Makes a lot of sense, right? (laughs)

    30. HS

      I would love to know, right? (laughs)

  11. 57:17 – 59:25

    Rob’s Dream for the Future of VC

    1. HS

      ending before we do a quick fire on our positivity. If you, like, have a dream and you can cast yourself out till 2028, five years-

    2. RL

      (laughs)

    3. HS

      ... where is the Europe ecosystem then for you in your dream? Uh, it's all gone to plan.

    4. RL

      In my dream, venture capital itself got disrupted for the first time in history, because VC are investing in a disruption, but they have been the least disruptive industry themselves in the last 50 years. If you ask me what it needs to unlock the European ecosystem, it's the domain smartness, taking risk in verticals, and it's the capital. And I think we have a first generation of billionaire B2B founders, like the founders of Adyen, of Checkout, Guillaume, take, take, like, all those people that reinvest in the ecosystem.

    5. HS

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RL

      Take, take Daniel, who led the 100 million seed round in Helsing on Series A round. And we have the Google, the family entrepreneurs. So together, I would say, if things go right, do we really need the traditional VC funds anymore, or can we build a smarter approach, unlocking the domain knowledge of those people and the capital that these people has to kind of back the next generation of, uh, B2B entrepreneurs? (laughs)

    7. HS

      You're not dissing me. I totally agree.

    8. RL

      (laughs)

    9. HS

      I, I, I... My, my job is to build the next great venture firm at the intersection of-

    10. RL

      Yeah.

    11. HS

      ... venture and media, and to leverage media products-

    12. RL

      Yeah.

    13. HS

      ... to allow me to be better ambassadors. I s- I tweeted this the other day, but I don't think 20VC is a media company.

    14. RL

      Mm-hmm.

    15. HS

      I think it's a data company. Like, every-

    16. RL

      It's a what?

    17. HS

      It's a data company.

    18. RL

      Yeah.

    19. HS

      Like, you know, we... (laughs) Before this show, we spoke to eight founders that you work with-

    20. RL

      Yeah.

    21. HS

      ... and now have, like, 32 pages of notes on you. (laughs)

    22. RL

      Nice. Can I buy them? (laughs) What do I need to do to get access to that?

    23. HS

      Uh, no. (laughs) Ironically, no, you can't.

    24. RL

      (laughs)

    25. HS

      But, uh, but, but we have so... And we've got this over 3,000 shows.

    26. RL

      Yeah.

    27. HS

      And so you just have incredible data. Um, I-

    28. RL

      We're the Visionaries, so that's our vision, you know. We wanna... We act like any venture capital fund, the fund is structured like any fund, but we only have those entrepreneurs as our LPs. And our vision is really to take venture capital a little bit to the next level, unlocking this domain knowledge and those capital pools. I

  12. 59:25 – 1:10:07

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. RL

      think it's something for Europe that would fit our ecosystem.

    2. HS

      No, I, I totally agree. Um, I wanna do a quick-fire round. So I say a short statement and you give me immediate thoughts. Sound okay?

    3. RL

      Trying to do my best, my friend.

    4. HS

      So, uh, I l-... We messaged about this one before and you said, "Oh, I can't think of them." I'm like, "Oh, well, you have 24 hours, so good luck."

    5. RL

      (laughs)

    6. HS

      Um, if you were to invest in one European seed firm other than your own, which would it be?

    7. RL

      Yeah. I'll pick two. Beyond Capital and Cocoa, because they're both micro funds led by-

    8. HS

      Sorry, Beyond Capital?

    9. RL

      Beyond Capital, it's Gloria Boilard.

    10. HS

      Ah, yeah.

    11. RL

      She was with Index before. She's one of the smartest and most hungry young VCs that I know.

    12. HS

      I know Johns did 20V.C., but didn't, okay.

    13. RL

      And, uh, I'll bring her on the show.

    14. HS

      (laughs)

    15. RL

      And Carmen, who's also running a 50 million, 15 million micro fund. I believe in those young managers that are hungry, hyper-smart, talented, and still wanna have this kind of ambition to win. In fact-

    16. HS

      I, I, I'm in Cocoa too. I, I think Carmen has done unbelievably well in terms of visibility.

    17. RL

      Yeah.

    18. HS

      Every deal that we meet at seed, they've always met at Cocoa.

    19. RL

      Yeah.

    20. HS

      Um, totally agree with you. Yeah. (laughs) Series A firm in Europe. Which would you invest in?

    21. RL

      You mentioned... I could mention the usual ones like Accel, Index, Sequoia, and the likes, but let's, let's, let's pick a different one. I think Felix Capital is a great company because, you know, that's an entrepreneurial-run venture capital fund with a great focused value proposition. They are doing incredibly well on getting new partners on board, like Julien recently, who has been an angel investor in, in Pigment, Xentral. I like him a lot. I think he's an amazing partner, so. And Felix is an entrepreneur in VC, like the, the company, so I like this.

    22. HS

      JC is like my big brother. I love Julien, so I totally agree.

    23. RL

      (laughs)

    24. HS

      (laughs) I love the fact that I, I just get to ask these questions-

    25. RL

      (laughs)

    26. HS

      ... I didn't have to answer them.

    27. RL

      (laughs)

    28. HS

      Uh, it's such a good job. Um, tell me, uh, growth firm.

    29. RL

      Um, difficult, because I think they are by nature more global, but if I had to pick one, I still... Your favorite one, 83North-

    30. HS

      Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 1:10:15

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