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EVERY SPOKEN WORD
25 min read · 5,101 words- 0:00 – 3:26
Intro
- SPSpeaker
My estimate is that on average, if you employ some of these combination of these methodologies, you're able to move up your-- what I would, I would start with D30. I think you can move that up ten to fifteen percent.
- BKBryan Kim
Whoa.
- SPSpeaker
Which is-- which goes from okay on my, on my list of, like, twenty percent D30, that's, like, okay, that's good, to a whopping thirty-five percent. That's exceptional. [laughing]
- BKBryan Kim
We are seeing in this wave of AI a lot of questions around retention, and I think something that you've pointed out is that, you know, maybe things aren't so different from the last wave of consumer applications, or at least that we can learn from them, right? And so you're, you're an expert in this. What have you seen in terms of the past retention mechanisms that you feel like in consumer wave one can now be maybe applied to consumer wave two?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, this is, uh, this is a fun one. Fun, very fun topic, and it actually came, uh, from one of my, uh, chats with a AI native founder who was trying to find ways to say, "How do I get my product into more consumers' hands?" It's interesting because, um, I've said it once before that retention is the, you know, bread and butter of key consumer products because if you don't get users coming back and again and again, ultimately you have what I call this, like, burned forest problem where you went and cut all the trees off and there's no more new acquisition to do.
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So ultimately, retention is incredibly important. And it tended to be this metrics that is very difficult to move.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And I remember this because I ran, uh, growth product at Snap, and when we moved, when I tell you one percent-
- BKBryan Kim
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Hundred pips, one percent of, uh, of retention rate of a D30 that we're tracking, we moved it up by a percent. There was a huge party.
- BKBryan Kim
[laughing]
- SPSpeaker
That, that actually led to a very clear, uh, incremental value to the company-
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... in terms of the daily active users that we're gonna keep and the reduction in any paid ads that we would have to do, and it was very, very clear benefit. So-
- BKBryan Kim
Yep
- SPSpeaker
... that ingrained in me, oh my God, this, this, this number is very, very difficult to move. Nowadays, because of these, uh, methods that are available to consumer founders, I-- my estimate is that on average, if you employ some of these combination of these methodologies, you're able to move up your-- what I would-- I would start with D30. I think you can move that up ten to fifteen percent.
- BKBryan Kim
Whoa.
- SPSpeaker
Which is-- which goes from okay on my, on my list of, like, twenty percent D30, that's like, okay, that's good, to a whopping thirty-five percent. That's exceptional.
- BKBryan Kim
Yes. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So what I've learned in the past two, two and a half years meeting with excellent founders who are on the front line thinking about different product mechanisms, there have been seven ways that I've seen that, uh, you know, very distinctively you could employ-
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... to move your retention up. And the more-- what's more, which is really exciting, is that I've thought about ways that the new AI native products are actually adopting these and, uh-
- BKBryan Kim
They're already seeing that
- SPSpeaker
... they are already seeing the benefits and the said founder that I'm talking about had actually told me that, "Oh, after that chat, I employed a bunch of mechanisms and, and actually my weekly retention shot up by a lot."
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And that's all the validation I need to have published this.
- BKBryan Kim
Amazing. Well, let's go through them. So you said you've got seven mechanisms, and as you said, we're kind of seeing examples from the past, from the earlier traditional consumer wave, and then you're already seeing implementation, which is kind of crazy 'cause we're so early into this-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- BKBryan Kim
... new
- 3:26 – 6:11
Obsess Over Delivering the Core Product Value. Fast.
- BKBryan Kim
wave. So let's start with the first one, speed to core product value. What do you mean by that?
- SPSpeaker
Retention is made up of two things in my mind. Onboarding matters.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
If the new user comes on on day zero and didn't find a pro- value that they're looking for, they're not gonna stay.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And you just, like, lost that user, and it's very, very unlikely that you recover from a low D0, D1 retention.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
It's very difficult to recover from that. So onboarding really matters, and then, you know, making sure that as you onboard someone, getting them to experience that core product value that the-- you're delivering quickly matters a ton-
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... because the less friction, less time lapse you have between opening or, or starting the product, the better chance you have of retaining them. You know, if you just look at traditional companies, or traditional is the wrong word, but, you know-
- BKBryan Kim
[laughing] Sure
- SPSpeaker
... uh, leading companies. Google, when it first started, and Larry Page was very famous for, uh, really, really hammering this down, where speed of search, shaving milliseconds-
- BKBryan Kim
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... to search result really mattered, and that really mattered in terms of, like, drop rate. That really mattered in terms of people sticking around and coming back and working on the product and, and sort of that became one of the mantra enough that they started building it into their search ranking.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
If, uh, the-- how fast the site loads became a factor in relevance because relevance that it actually-
- BKBryan Kim
I think they were even surprised at how much this impacted things, right?
- SPSpeaker
Exactly, and they wrote this, like, you know, blog that said, like, speed matters. As I think about the AI products, it's interesting because, you know, we talk a lot about the improvements in underlying foundational model and what that means. What I-- well, actually what that means is the results come to you faster, better, more relevant, and there's an example of a com-- AI native companionship product where they actually did this test where they used GPT-1, GPT-2, GPT-3, and they actually tracked the cohort of user retention using each of the models.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And it's very clear as the model quality improved, which means you get response faster, the retention, uh, out to ninetieth day of user being activated kept on improving.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And one of the other sort of ways I think about this, and this is kudos to Aravind at Perplexity, is that whenever the state-of-the-art model comes out, he incorporates that into Perplexity on the day of, if not earlier. And you know, I was thinking about this. I'm like, "Oh, that's, like, incredible velocity, and that, that's great," but I actually think what it also does, it makes his product perform, um, much better than anything out there and delivers faster, better, more relevant results and think that's part of, um, how, um, the speed to core product value is manifesting in these different type of AI native products.
- BKBryan Kim
I love that they can see the difference between, as you said, GPT-
- SPSpeaker
Incredible
- BKBryan Kim
... one, two, three, four.
- 6:11 – 10:07
Feature-Gated Onboarding
- BKBryan Kim
Let's go to the next one, feature-gated onboarding. What do you mean by that?
- SPSpeaker
So as I said, onboarding matters a lot. Now, you can have an onboarding where you gently nudge people like, "This is how you use the product. Have fun." Or you can actually really force-feed them. And I think what we're seeing is that if you actually gate the usage of the product behind something that users need to do to unlock, I think that actually ends up leading to higher retention. You're exchanging lower conversion to actual product initiation, if you will, because some people will not be willing to go through that onboarding process.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
The thought process there is that they probably weren't gonna stick around anyways, so you're actually, like, finding out early that they're not willing to do that. But if they do go through it, you actually see a much higher retention for people who are activated. So the example from prior non-AI generation would be the company called Lapse. It's a camera app that gives you the feel of the instant camera, if you will. And what's interesting, it's essentially a social product.
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And what they actually gated the product usage behind is not only a pretty lengthy onboarding process of how the product works, but also you can't use it unless you invited five new friends. Now, what did that do? Is that it's famous for social products where if you have more than five friends on the product, yeah, their chance of sticking around is much, much higher.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
So what this product is doing is actually force-building a friend graph, that when you come onto the product, you already have a value that you're gonna find by looking at your friend's content, one out of five, two out of five, out of five. So I think that's like a way of building in retention-
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... as you go in. I think one of the more recent AI examples would be Viggle.ai.
- BKBryan Kim
Okay.
- SPSpeaker
This is a fun product where you get to, uh, put a picture of yourself and y- all you need is an image, and they have certain set of scenes. And, uh, one of the more famous scene was Lil Yachty dancing out in stage, and you can very easily overlay anybody's image on it. There have been very different, you know, viral moments of Jerome Powell doing a-
- BKBryan Kim
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... doing a dance after announcing a rate cut.
- BKBryan Kim
We're gonna have to pull that up. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And, and those type of e- examples are so fun. Now, how do you create these? It's magical, right? You layer on your image. Like, I actually put on my image on one of the famous Guardians of the Galaxy scene-
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... where Chris sings Ooh Child in front of his nemesis.
- BKBryan Kim
Ooh child, things are gonna get brighter. Now, bring it down hard.
- SPSpeaker
That's... I- it's one of my favorite scenes. It's so funny. Now, what Viggle does is it's only available on Discord to create.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
There are three steps you need to go through to be able to create a Viggle. That includes reading the rules. That also involves actually going through the mechanics of how to build the right sequence in the Discord chat so that you can get that result, and only then after completing those steps can you use the product.
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Now, what does that do? Well, that also-- that effectively taught you how to create this forcefully, uh, to some extent, and now you have created it. Voila, the magical moment happened.
- BKBryan Kim
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And now your propensity to come back to the, you know, product is a lot higher because it's not foreign to you anymore.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And I think that's a very interesting use case of actually putting your core product creation behind, uh, a sort of a fairly long use, uh, rules and understanding how to use a product and actually getting them to create an example before-
- BKBryan Kim
A good one too
- SPSpeaker
... a good one.
- 10:07 – 12:10
Designing Reciprocity
- BKBryan Kim
Um, so the next one, designing reciprocity.
- SPSpeaker
So here, this is one of my favorite ones, uh, because this actually underpins probably the highest retention gain that you could get, and this is also one of the things that I, I don't have an AI example yet.
- BKBryan Kim
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
The idea is give to get, i.e., if, if you have a product and, and you haven't contributed to the product, you don't, you don't get it. The example really would be BeReal, which is a social product where you can check up on your friends', uh, you know, authentic moments, and it's a fair value exchange. "Hey, you don't get to see your friend's authentic moment until you're willing to share yours."
- BKBryan Kim
Hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And I think that's a powerful concept. Uh, and the reciprocity is very effective because what it does is now, as a user, I have to create, I have to contribute to consume. The other interesting thing is if I get any sort of reaction or positive reinforcement of people liking that content, whether it's a Like button or a Comment button, what have you, I get a jolt of, uh, joy or dopamine, and I'm more willing to do that on an ongoing basis, which leads to higher retention, which leads to richer content on the platform, and so on and so forth. I think this can actually translate really well into certain, um, AI products where it becomes important for, uh, the product to have a rich creation flow. I think we're trained to go to a platform hoping to see sea of content, feed, what have you.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
But what if you gated that behind creation? What if people needed to create and actually contribute to the, you know, dynamicness of that product before consuming? It won't work for every single product, but I think you can design it into, um, you know, different AI products where creation and this sort of maintaining a dynamic creation consumption flow within the product can really, really be helpful.
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah, I know. You've got my wheels spinning, and maybe it's partially because creators get so much value from these AI tools-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- BKBryan Kim
... that they don't actually need to consume as much as in the prior era. But looking forward,
- 12:10 – 17:12
Building Smart Notifications
- BKBryan Kim
the next one is building smart notifications.
- SPSpeaker
Notification is this one thing where it's, it's tried and true. People know that notification can bring people back. Uh, it's, it's a double, double-edged knife, double-edged sword in that you send too much, people turn it off, you are not getting them back. I know this empirically, that once you turn a notification off, the chance of something turning that back on is extremely low. Now, what's interesting on notification is this: when you think of notification, I think there are three different things to think about, which is who, who's sending it?
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Of course, the company is, like, sending it, but like-
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... who is the perceived sender to the user? That's one. Two is what is in the message? What is the payload? And then three is what is the frequency?
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And all, all three of these interact differently, but I'll, I'll give you one example where, let's say, uh, Snapchat sends happy Earth Day message. Well, don't paint me into villain, but I don't actually care much about Earth Day.
- BKBryan Kim
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Like, I don't care. Like, why are you telling me this?
- BKBryan Kim
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And in that case, the, the payload is happy Earth Day.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
The frequency was this holiday, if you will, and the sender in this case is a company.
- BKBryan Kim
Yep.
- SPSpeaker
Not my friend, because if you Snap me and I get a little, you know, purple or, or, or blue, blue square, I'm not thinking, "Oh, Snap is sending me another notification." I'm thinking, "Steph wants to talk to me."
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
"This is great." So the perceived sender is very different.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Another example would be Partiful. If you think, uh, you're going to an event and you signed up for it, you RSVP'd, and you get a notification that the venue changed last minute, or it's raining and they're changing the time, or it's so and so's not going. You want to know that, and you get a notification on your SMS that says, "Guys, instead of 8:00, we're going to 7:00. Instead of Crown's King, we're going to some other bar." That's really relevant-
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... and the sender is not Partiful. The sender is the host.
- BKBryan Kim
Right. Yes.
- SPSpeaker
So that's really interesting because the more you can move the user's mindset into, "Oh, this is really useful to me. Oh, the perceived sender isn't necessarily the company."
- BKBryan Kim
Mm, mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
"This is actually really useful to me," that's like sort of how you shift the mindset and therefore make it a lot less likely for someone to turn off. You know, if you turn on notification on, uh, on Perplexity, it actually delivers, uh, you very relevant news that you might care about.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
So during the OpenAI, you know, reshuffle or saga, like, a lot of different movements happened, and when you're able to get that news pushed to you really relevantly, quickly, you no longer think, "Oh, why is this product bothering me with notification? I can't believe that just happened. I am so glad I learned it before I learn it on TikTok or Twitter-"
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... "or news." And I think that's sort of a, an, a way to build very smart notification that a lot of AI products can actually, uh, build in.
- 17:12 – 19:54
Give Them Summaries
- BKBryan Kim
Um-
- SPSpeaker
I think that's right.
- BKBryan Kim
Okay. Next one, keeping streaks alive.
- SPSpeaker
Streaks, this is a well-known example. One pet peeve I have on streaks though is that people think of it as, oh, gamification.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
I understand streaks. Let's, let's put a fire emoji and a number next to it-
- BKBryan Kim
[laughs] Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and it'll be great. It's, uh, the, the well-done streaks are a little different. They're very, very effortful.
- BKBryan Kim
What do you mean by that?
- SPSpeaker
Let's say you and I have a streak of 1,000. What that meant on Snapchat is I sent you a video, not a text, not a chat, a video, a Snap, or image, image or video.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And you sent me back something in a 24-hour period as well, and s- streak doesn't appear until three days of doing that.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
The fact that there is a fire emoji and 1,000 next to it is that we did that nonstop for nearly three years. That is not a like button. That is not a retweet.
- BKBryan Kim
Right.
- SPSpeaker
That is not a heart. That is really, really expensive friendship badge, and you bet if you break that, I'm not talking to you.
- BKBryan Kim
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
So- There are ways to think about these streaks as something that is very meaningful-
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... that is not just some number behind it, and this is a way to actually really encourage people to coming... k-keep coming back to your product. One good example that I think about is there's a lot of AI journal products, like Rosebud or Jot, and it actually have streak mechanism, and that's helpful. And another language learning app called Speak AI, and it's similar to Duolingo, but it's a language learning, uh, based on AI. These products are very beneficial when they're, when they're ha-habituated.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Writing journals is proven to be very... a good thing for your mental health.
- BKBryan Kim
Yep.
- SPSpeaker
Language learning, we know that consistency matters.
- BKBryan Kim
Yep.
- SPSpeaker
So when you bake into these type of products, even if it's AI native product, if it's habituated, helpful to the users to be habituated, I think these are the very, very interesting places to start seeing it, and bonus points if, you know, uh, founders can start thinking about streaks as digital signature or display of something effortful-
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and expensive, not a like button, not a retweet button, which I tend to think of as cheaper digital signs.
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah. I mean, I almost think it's identity based in a way. There are some people, by the way, you can look this up, who've been doing the Duolingo streak for, like, a decade, and so for those people, there's... there, there has to be an identity piece of that where they're like, "Yes, it is trying to keep up the streak," but it's also like, "I'm a language learner," or, "I'm dedicated"-
- SPSpeaker
For sure
- 19:54 – 22:14
Keeping Streaks Alive
- BKBryan Kim
The next one is the wraps.
- SPSpeaker
This is fun. Wraps, popularized by Spotify Year in Wrap. My number one, uh, musician is Hans Zimmer. Um-
- BKBryan Kim
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... and I, I was proud of that. I, I shared-
- BKBryan Kim
You've got one you can share.
- SPSpeaker
I-
- BKBryan Kim
Mine are all embarrassing. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I've shared, I've shared that out quite widely. Wraps is interesting because we know AI or LLMs are good for a few things, and they, they also include summarization. They're very good for that.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
So I think what we're seeing now is this unique technology that, uh, can actually sift through your behavior, your engagement, what you consume, et cetera, and be able to tease out summarization.
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Excellent for that. And so I think we're starting to see very interesting behavior because if I know if I'm gonna have a wrap, like, I'm excited. I'm gonna continue to do whatever that thing is or whatever that product is so that I have a pretty cool summary. Or that summarization really benefits me a-and, you know, I, I think back to the old example when I got my first American Express card. Year-end, they sent, like, a 20-page document of, like, what you did, like, all the spending that you did. That was not, that was not good.
- BKBryan Kim
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
That was not helpful. But hey, L... in the era of LLM, we have companies like Oops Finance-
- BKBryan Kim
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... where you're able to actually tease out the themes of what's happening. It could very easily say, "Hey, like, you've been eating out a lot."
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
"You've been, uh, spending on a lot of entertainment." "You spend it on a lot of trips," or, "You should probably do XYZ. We wanna invest more. We wanna save more." So I think, um, this is one of the other methodologies that I can very easily see being useful to a lot of new AI-native products.
- BKBryan Kim
Totally, and I think about the equivalent, um, in Spotify. They'll tell you, right? Like, if you're a Hans Zimmer, like, top one percent fan, you feel really good about that.
- SPSpeaker
We, we need Hans Zimmer B roll here.
- BKBryan Kim
[laughs] Yeah. But also you can imagine the same thing, like, f-for finance, right? You're in the top, you know, five percent of savers.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- BKBryan Kim
You're in the... you're the top 10% who buys from this brand. Like, there's some cool stuff you can do-
- SPSpeaker
How fun would that be?
- BKBryan Kim
... with that.
- SPSpeaker
And, and we're already seeing that in products. Like, uh, there was a product called Airbuds, and-
- BKBryan Kim
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... they sort of use, uh, the technology to figure out you're the top one percent listener of Taylor Swift.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, you're, you're sharing that.
- 22:14 – 26:22
Status for the Power Users
- BKBryan Kim
The final one is status for power users.
- SPSpeaker
I know we talk about retention as sort of a broad base, overall user base, uh, you know, thing, but, you know, if you actually go pretty granular, there usually is this, like, bulwark or extremely healthy users in any given leading product.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Power users, and I'll just give you one example. Let's say MAU, monthly active user. Whether someone showed up every single day of 30-day period or showed up once, they're both one MAU.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Which clearly, surely, one is far more valuable than the other.
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And so you start thinking through, "How do I actually think about power users? How do I really build that?" And this is interesting, and this is helpful to build retention because by giving people and bestowing some kind of status, if you will, for power users, the more likely you're able to incent them to continue that status.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
So old school examples, again, one way to do that on Reddit type of the world is to be a moderator. That's, that's an honor.
- BKBryan Kim
It is.
- SPSpeaker
For that community, for the subreddit, it's an honor.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Strava's Local Legend, that's an honor. You bet your ass, like, they would wanna stay there.
- BKBryan Kim
Yep.
- SPSpeaker
And that's very important, and I think we're already seeing, uh, very cool AI examples as well. One of the companies, uh, that sort of focuses on, uh, fine-tune image models and acting as a hub for that, they're the company called Civit AI. It's important for them to have a large, you know, density of fine-tune image models.
- BKBryan Kim
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And so how do you actually, you know, engender that? How do you actually get creators of these models to want to come back and do more? Is to start bestowing them status and leaderboards.
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And I think we are seeing, uh, that type of activity really continue to encourage the power users to keep coming back and keep contributing to the platform, therefore making it healthy. Another fun example, there's a product called Readwise where it sort of shows how many books and how many sort of passages you read, and being on top of that list or being a, you know, a top X percent user on those tend to be, uh, really important, almost, as you said, identity for me.
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, and I think, uh, those are very interesting ways to keep people from coming back, back to the product. There's a famous article, "Status as a Service." That was written by Eugene Wei, where he says, like, "People are status-seeking monkeys." And to some extent, that's true, and I think, uh, you know, a lot of the AI product, especially where creativity and contribution matters a lot, it's a, it's a very unique thing to be able to bestow and, and, and share with their, uh, most exciting user- excited user base.
- BKBryan Kim
Yeah. I mean, if you use many of these examples, like the Strava local legends, they would rather be up there than be paid to do the things that they're doing.
- SPSpeaker
Absolutely.
- BKBryan Kim
And I think maybe if there's one key takeaway here is, as I look down your list of seven different mechanisms, they're all free. You know, you need the cycles to actually implement this, but this is not something that, um, is rocket science either, and it's not something that you need a huge budget-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- BKBryan Kim
... to implement. Like, these are really things that you can bake into almost any product. And hopefully we'll get an example of... It was designing reciprocity, right? Where-
- SPSpeaker
Reciprocity example. I, I'm excited to see one too, and you know, I think as you said, these are not expensive mechanisms. But I think what's interesting is, like, you know, you, you get to pick what actually really, uh, boosts the, the attractiveness of your core product value and really serve that.
- BKBryan Kim
Yep. Absolutely.
- SPSpeaker
Cool.
Episode duration: 26:27
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