a16zJake Paul on Going From YouTube to Boxing to Investing | a16z ft. Anti Fund
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 11,450 words- 0:00 – 1:20
Intro: announcing the $100M growth fund
- JPJake Paul
We're officially announcing the $100 million oversubscribed growth fund and some of the tier one names, maybe all the tier one names [laughs] . Anduril, Etched Cognition, Ceronic, Modal. Good morning party people. What is going on?
- ETErik Torenberg
Jake Paul is one of the biggest YouTubers and influencers on the planet.
- GWGeoff Woo
He didn't just pick a fight with one good guy, he picked a fight with an entire sport.
- JPJake Paul
[breathing heavily]
- GWGeoff Woo
When there's a lot of people watching you, sometimes you wanna like take it up to the next level.
- JPJake Paul
And then boom, it became a thing to hate Jake Paul.
- ETErik Torenberg
He is completely unhinged.
- GWGeoff Woo
Today we are talking about the blockhead.
- JPJake Paul
Is Jake Paul a boxer? [breathing heavily] When we announced Anti-Fun, [beep] was like, "GW, like, you're making a mistake. Jake is not, like, good. You're, you're ruining your career." And we're just like, "Whatever, bro."
- ETErik Torenberg
When did you guys know that you were gonna be such partners?
- JPJake Paul
One way I think about it is that, like, if Jake can just live his life and get a bunch of views, and someone has to, like, $100 million in fire to get a bunch of views, who do I wanna be partners with? I think a lot of people in the space can have a lot of followers, but not the cash, and cash is king.
- ETErik Torenberg
Jake, Geoff, we've got some big news. Thanks for coming on the podcast today to discuss it. We've got a growth fund. Why, why don't you share the big news?
- JPJake Paul
Yeah. We're, uh, officially announcing the, uh, growth fund that
- 1:20 – 13:41
The portfolio and how Jake & Geoff became partners
- JPJake Paul
we've been working on for quite some time in, uh, some of the tier one names, a lot of the tier one names, maybe all the tier one names. [laughs] Um, but Anduril, Etched Cognition, SpaceX, um, [laughs] OpenAI, Anthropic, uh, Ceronic, Modal. So yeah.
- ETErik Torenberg
The, the list goes on.
- JPJake Paul
It- [laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
A lot more collaborators in. Um, maybe just zoom out first. Uh, Geoff, w- w- for those who are not familiar from what you can see beyond the surface, how would you describe Jake's superpowers that led him to be the, uh, amazing partner for you here? And then I'm gonna ask Jake the same.
- GWGeoff Woo
I think Jake from the outside could be like a entertainer or a professional athlete. But I think to me, Jake's always been a constant entrepreneur, one, and then two, I think he's really created himself as a tastemaker and a cultural leader of his generation, right? Like all the young kids today look up and want to be an influencer. Jake literally created the influencer term and that like job profile, if you think about him instantiating the daily vlog. So I think it's easy to, especially with an internet character, like you take pieces of that persona and just put that as a whole human. But the underlying thread is I think he's a very generous, thoughtful, kind human being who is very ambitious and is going to not stop in whatever, uh, venues that he chooses to participate and compete in. So I think if it's entertainment, media, sports, and hopefully with venture capital growth equity investing, uh, we take that on together. So...
- JPJake Paul
Thank you, Geoff. [laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
The, um... Well, why- wanna you say the same for Geoff? Obviously the same question, then we'll get into both of your stories.
- JPJake Paul
Yeah. I think Geoff, uh, is one of the smartest people that I know, just across the board. And, um, I think the work ethic and the, his background being so different than mine as well, we make like such a great team. You know, computer science, Stanford. Uh, but his deep, deep networks, and we just think similarly, um, in a lot of things, and I think that lends itself really well to being great partners. Um, but yeah, he's nonstop thinking ahead and sees, um, a lot of things before they come around the, the corner. And, um, he actually said no to investing in my first company when I was 18 years old, and the company failed, so [laughs] he was right. Um, so just really great judgment, um, great people. You know, this is the people business, and so just being able to really read people and have that EQ as well as IQ is really important.
- GWGeoff Woo
Yeah. You're, you're just making us like flatter each other.
- JPJake Paul
Yeah. [laughs]
- GWGeoff Woo
You're an OG, so-
- JPJake Paul
I appreciate- [laughs]
- GWGeoff Woo
... I compliment you as well.
- ETErik Torenberg
I appreciate. Well, I mean, I, um... Speaking of OG, I remember Corey Levy, uh, you know, many years ago said, "Hey, I've got this kid you, you gotta meet. He's building something super interesting. Uh, he's super talented." And I was out of town, I was like, "Ah, you know, I, I don't know if I..." I, I, I, I, um... He ended up introducing him. We ne- we never, uh, ended up meeting. And I remember, sometimes I reflect back, I'm like, "Holy shit." Like, first off, Corey's incredible-
- JPJake Paul
Yeah
- ETErik Torenberg
... judge of talent. But two, it's like you gotta take bets on the, on the, like, up-and-coming talent 'cause you never know, you know, w- where they're gonna end up. J- Jake, the idea that someone would, you know, become a media sort of mogul, then, you know, professional athlete, then a tech investor, that, that's like a pretty distinct path. Say more about what other people can learn from how you took your path. Like, was it all organic? Or what was sort of your s- strategy, or how do you even, like, retroactively make sense of, of your sort of multi-hyphenate career?
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, it's really interesting. I think al- always being, like, entrepreneur first and very analytical, and when things are working, double, triple, quadruple down, and when they're not, just sweep the things under the rug. And so, um-
- ETErik Torenberg
That's what someone once said about a16z. I love that they just launch a bunch of stuff, and then when it doesn't work, you just pretend it never happened. [laughs]
- JPJake Paul
Seriously, I've, I've failed so many times to get to this point and made so many mistakes, and I think it's resilience in this day and age, and in having a public career as well-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- JPJake Paul
... and being, uh, a public figure. I think you have to have tons of resilience. You have to know yourself. You have to, um, go through ups and downs. Uh, but I think, uh, being an entrepreneur at heart, I always looked at everything From a business lens and always hustled and showed up every single day and knocked down every single door of opportunity, and always wanted to grow my network. I think that's been a super powerful thing that differentiates me, um, is always knowing the right person at the right times to, um, ask them for help or ask them for a favor, um, and also doing favors for them when they need you-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- JPJake Paul
... and not charging for it. I think people in this entertainment world are very transactional, um, and short-thinking and not professional. They show up late. Um, I've always tried to be the most professional entertainer. Um, and so that's lent itself well. And then when, like, I went to box, it kinda started as, you know, this crazy thing, but then it was a million pay-per-view buys, 30,000 tickets sold out. I had a blast doing it. I was like, "Okay, content-"
- ETErik Torenberg
Was it an experiment for you? Y- or did you know you were gonna go all in bef- when you-
- JPJake Paul
No, I didn't know I was gonna go all in.
- ETErik Torenberg
You were just like-
- JPJake Paul
But, but after the first one, it was like, this was absolutely massive. I'm gonna become world champion. And that was, like, a pivot moment where it's like, yeah, this content s- stuff's cool and doing great, but I can still do content within boxing, but this boxing match was the most viewed amateur event ever, 30,000 tickets sold. The press conferences were getting tens of millions of views, so I was like, clearly people love this and I love it, and so I'm gonna go all in. And then that, you know, lends itself to now being, you know, one of the highest paid athletes on the Forbes list, um, because of just following the numbers. So I think being analytical, um, as an entertainer is also important.
- ETErik Torenberg
So, so you have the content, you have, you know, this massively high grossing boxing career. Why get into tech?
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, so I think it was actually, again, just being entrepreneur at heart, but it was actually my, one of my first loves was the Valley and coming out here when I was 17 with Cory and Alex Dabilov actually, and, um, they showed me all these crazy companies, and I got to meet some really smart people who were building the future and seeing, like, uh, even Cory's after school setup where he had, like, all the screens and all the, uh, employees were there, and it was just, like, so different, um, and so cool. And that's when I fell in love with wanting to make my own startups and being a founder, but also being in the investor world and even understanding how it works and all the VC lingo and, uh, started growing my network. And so it's really always been there since I was a kid, and it's always been something that I loved. Um, and then when I was 23, I wanted to take a bigger bite at the apple, and, um, that's when I met Geoff and the stars aligned, and we just decided to go bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, and turns out, um, that we're actually really good at it. So it's fun when things are working, and, um, it's fun, you know, helping shape the future of America with these companies.
- ETErik Torenberg
When did you know that you were gonna, like, be partners?
- 13:41 – 17:05
Resilience, therapy, and childhood trauma
- JPJake Paul
making anonymous accounts, saying things about me. My principal, teachers were saying things. Um, so it's always been there. So I think I'm just used to it because of that, um, which is pretty interesting. And then you're like, "What else are you gonna do?" Like I don't know. Just be a coward and quit and give up and let people run you? Like, I could just never be that person, and I just don't think that way, and I know who I am. I think that's very important as well, and I feel like a lot of people know who they are, but they let the comments and critics like, get to them very easily. And so if you could just look yourself in the mirror and be like, "I'm doing good. I'm a good person. I'm doing g- good things in the world. I have a good heart. I mean well." And if you can mean those things, then it doesn't matter what anyone says.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah. When, when people ask you as like, "Hey, are tools like, uh, therapy helpful or o- other sort of self-care tools, whether physical or emotional or mental, to help deal with like..." What, what do you tell them?
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, definitely. I, I fully believe that. I think, um, you just have to be careful. You know, you don't want the therapy to like turn into victimizing yourself and then always being in constant sad loops. So I think you have to be careful and at some points, um, if it feels needed, yes, but I don't think you should get like trapped into the cycle of therapy and always kind of having a call with someone or an in-person meeting with someone that is generally probably going to be negative. Um, and so I think it's very important like who that therapist is as well. Uh, but I do think it's important to learn about yourself and unpack things, and I think the childhood, like trauma and going back and realizing like, oh, you know, um, you know, you had this that happened to you-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- JPJake Paul
... and this is maybe why you have anxiety in this moment and these things. And so I, I really like childhood trauma work that you can connect to why you behave certain ways as an adult.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- JPJake Paul
Um, and I think it's important to unpack those things and learn about it.
- ETErik Torenberg
Totally. J- Geoff, why don't you al- uh, also make sense of some of, uh, like wh- when you're reflecting your career, looking back, you've taken some big swings in some different spaces. Um, when you look back at the, the threads that have tied your career together, h- how do you make sense of it? What are some of the big insights you've had that have led you to go deep on certain things?
- GWGeoff Woo
I guess like I've always been like a, almost an academic or a engineer or a scientist at heart. Um, how do you... Like, what is the nature of reality? What is the truth? What are the underlying systems or rules that govern yourself, a company, a society? Right? So if I think about, um, some of the things I've been interested in, whether it's biohacking, how do you optimize your, your, your singular person? Uh, so I think there's like a tinkerer or, or, or like a student or an academic that just likes just figuring out those different systems. Um, and then the second part is I think with a little bit of battle scars and wisdom, just like fewer things that just compound really, really well. So now I think about
- 17:05 – 25:09
Attention, looksmaxxing vs AI-maxxing, and advice for 2026
- GWGeoff Woo
why venture and growth is a very interesting, uh, problem to play with is that managing $1 to $100 to $1 million to $1 billion is kind of the same level of hard, right? It's like hard to spend $100 really well. It's hard to spend $100 billion really well. But it, it's you only need like one or two people or three people to manage 100 bucks or 100 billion bucks, right? Like, those are the best investors are just like really, really strong conviction folks who just are making big bets. Um, so that's where I think we've gravitated towards, and I think Jake has a different lens on how he can scale his thought leadership and cultural leadership and his, um, ability to convene and bring people together at the higher and higher scales. So I think that's like a shared level of just like shared ambition and, and maybe arrogance in terms of we think we can play at those, those highest levels of wielding capital, wielding technology, willing- building culture. Um, so if that is like the endpoint of just like, okay, what are the underlying rules of nature, rules of reality, um, what's the most efficient way to start pulling and playing with those levers? So I think science, computer science, physics are- ... foundational to just the nature of reality, and then capital are the, is the lever of, of, of, like, human society and civilization. And I think where Anti Fund has been quite unique is that in a world where there's more and more capital, is attention more scarce? Is be able to control mind share more scarce? So o- one of the original questions, like why is Jake, like, an ideal partner, it's like you, you really can't name a better partner than Jake Paul in terms of wielding attention and driving cultural taste. So if you can really master those two levers, maybe we can control the world, right? Like, like, or let's just try and have someone stop us.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah. There was a famous tweet of if, if you're smart, pivot to being hot, or, you know, if, if you're [laughs] if you're focused on intelligence, you know, uh, pivot to being, you know, wielding attention. Uh, you, you had this blog post of, uh, you know, there's two jobs, AI-maxxing and, and looksmaxxing. Why, why don't you talk about that?
- GWGeoff Woo
Uh, y- yeah, no, I think it's, um, I think it's actually true, um, which is that the only thing that really will matter is that c- if we assume that, like we're pretty AGI-pilled, um, intelligence is just gonna be metered out through compute, um, then what matters? Then it's like, one, like your relationship with people, and I think looksmaxxing is, like, a pretty narrow focus on, like, you know, the physical appearance matters, and, like, people like people that look good and symmetric and healthy, so it's fine. Um, but I think it's beyond just looks. It's, like, your vibe, your y- your ability to just be charismatic and engage with people. So that's, like, w- an important skill set in the future. Can you just have better vibes than everyone else? And I think with venture, right? Like, I think, I think what you've done with the media strategy for Andreessen Horowitz, I mean, you guys are literally executing on looksmaxxing the VC world essentially, right? Like, you guys have your own propaganda arm just pushing out your view of the world. Um, and then the second part is that, like, okay, if you don't have... Maybe you're not maxing out on vibes, then you gotta just be best at wielding intelligence. So all you gotta do is, like, play with codecs and be on the computer all day long, and then on this, on the, on the other side, work out, sleep a lot, and looksmaxx. Then you got e- everything covered.
- ETErik Torenberg
If you were 22, like just getting out of college today, but in 2026, um, what would that look like in terms of how you'd wanna spend your time?
- GWGeoff Woo
I was... We were just, we were just stopping by Stanford, and Jake's gonna go back to college, and, uh, so that might be an answer that he can actually think about. Um-
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, I wanna play on the Stanford football team actually.
- GWGeoff Woo
[laughs]
- JPJake Paul
So we'll see what happens.
- GWGeoff Woo
He's gonna do, uh, one year on the Stanford team, and then get drafted to the Cleveland Browns.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yep.
- GWGeoff Woo
It's, it's happening.
- ETErik Torenberg
Let's go.
- GWGeoff Woo
Um, I'm actually, like, old school in the sense that, like, and I think I've saw that earlier in my career where like, oh, is, if computer science and math is automated, then you don't need to study this stuff and just do, like, cultural or o- other fuzzy stuff. Um, I would just go deeper and deeper into actually understanding math, uh, actually understanding computer science, because if you actually know underlying how, uh, these large language models are actually working, you actually can wield them and prompt them better. So I'm actually, like, doubling down that, yes, like get really good at math, get really good at computer science, right? Like the people that are leading these industries are, like, math champions, right? Like Scott Wu and all these guys are just hardcore at that stuff and, you know, you know, we were hanging out with Scott at, at their office a couple months back.
- ETErik Torenberg
So you would get technically brilliant.
- GWGeoff Woo
Uh, a version of AI, like, maxxing is basically just max your IQ and max your EQ, right? Like that's another just, like, a simpler way to put it, and, like, looksmaxxing and AI-maxxing are just, like, the more cult- like current, c- currently cultural relevant terms for it.
- ETErik Torenberg
Would you start a company? Would you, uh, join Anthropic or OpenAI or?
- GWGeoff Woo
You just gotta gang up with the smartest, most ambitious people possible, and that could either be your own startup, or it could be joining OpenAI.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- GWGeoff Woo
Um, and I think... But I think the most important thing is, like, team up with like-minded, ambitious people that will push you to be the best version of yourself. So if that's a company, then go, let's, and we'll... Like Jake and I will back you.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- GWGeoff Woo
If it's joining, uh, OpenAI, Cognition, some of these, like, really, really high growth companies so you can learn a little bit before you jump into the deep end yourself, that's also great. Um, but I think the most important thing is just get with really, really smart, ambitious people and team up and, and grow together.
- JPJake Paul
I'm not technical, so [laughs] I think it would be a l- a harder place for me, but I think I would, uh, probably try to be in VC, uh, coming out of college.
- GWGeoff Woo
Hmm.
- JPJake Paul
And yeah, hopefully, if I made a lot of good connections at Stanford, uh, [laughs] my buddies that I would seed, seed their-
- GWGeoff Woo
Yeah
- JPJake Paul
... um, genius ideas, but-
- GWGeoff Woo
Don't cut yourself short. Like we had... Jake was on his, like, MacBook codexing and-
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, I got, uh, my GitHub's popping.
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- JPJake Paul
So... [laughs]
- 25:09 – 34:13
The creator game: YouTube, MrBeast, and lasting power
- JPJake Paul
And I, me and my brother were doing that, posting every single day, like 15-minute videos that were, that took the whole day to film. So just effort first and foremost. The entertainment in it, um, and then I think diversifying with like characters. So I basically created like a daily reality show with all of these people on it and all these crazy things happening, and that was cutting edge at the time. Um, and then just always being the visionary of like what's working, what trends. You know, "Okay, let's make a rap song," and then all of a sudden it's like one of the generational anthems of this, of, you know, younger kids know every single word of it, and it's like, "Oh, the music worked."
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- JPJake Paul
"Okay, let's make more songs. Let's make a whole album. Let's make a Christmas album." Um, so constantly just like bits of iteration, but, you know, spanning the full spectrum of entertainment. So it was like songs, comedy. I would make like scary videos to, you know, have the fear aspect of it. Then all of a sudden I'm going into athleticism, which is boxing and that whole side of entertainment as well. And so I think the modern day entertainers have to do it all.
- ETErik Torenberg
So we went to MrBeast's, um, sort of place in, uh, Nor- North Carolina, or Jimmy's place rather, and he, uh, sort of gave us a tour and he was showing how just analytical the whole operation is.
- JPJake Paul
Yeah.
- ETErik Torenberg
It was much, yours was much more kind of artistic or creative or emergent in terms of like, oh, let's fuck around and find out. Or like h- how did your... In terms of like what to spend time on, what, what to do i- in comparison to something like Beast's operation.
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, I think, um, it's, it's similar, but I think Jimmy is like a numbers guy and is super analytical and, uh, mine is definitely analytical but not at the level that Jimmy is with, with how he does things. And, uh, mine is more creative, like entertainment focused and just like kind of like a feeling thing like you're saying. Um, but that's why, you know, Jimmy just maxed out the numbers on, on YouTube and just did every little thing possible to hack the algorithm.
- ETErik Torenberg
It, it's interesting because there are a lot of people who will get big but not be super durable, whereas, you know, you just mentioned you and your brother and, and Jimmy as the ones that really s- s- struck out and I'm, I'm curious why some people get big for a period of time but, and I'll hear, hear about them, they'll be on TikTok, they'll be on some platform, but I, I don't hear about them years later. Like it's-
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, I've seen the, the biggest stars in the space from like day one just not stick around anymore. It's weird. It's really weird. There's a group called Magcon back in the day. They were like the Justin Biebers of the internet world and actually Shawn Mendes like spun out of there. He was the one that's like obviously made it really big, but it's just interesting. I think people m- maybe don't have that resiliency. They get tired of working or making content or going to the new platform or, you know, lose motivation, whatever it might be. And I think the people who are like truly destined to do this and love doing it, um, and that are talented at it are the ones that have lasted longer. And I think you s- almost have to, um, yeah, diversify. Like we've gotten into politics, business, growing brands, and so you start to have this audience, um, that follows you for multiple different things. Some people love my ranch YouTube videos and like only know about that and don't even... Uh, but I also have, I'm on a a16z podcast where like now people in the tech world are hearing about what I'm doing, but they probably won't watch my TikToks. So I'm doing all these different things and growing audiences in all of these different worlds and, um, I think that's been the key. And then I think also knowing how to monetize it and make money, and I think that's been a reason for us to continue to exist because I think a lot of people in the space don't know how to actually pull cash out. They can have a lot of followers-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- JPJake Paul
... but not the cash, and you, cash is king. So I think that's been another, uh, very important reason for the, I don't even know, 13, 14 years of being at the top of the influencer game.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- GWGeoff Woo
I, I think to me, Jake is a startup in it of himself, and in startup land, right, it's all power law.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- GWGeoff Woo
And I think essentially Jake has hit escape velocity. So I think, I think Jake gets even more powerful in this new era of AI generated characters and- And just infinite noise because you'll have a lot of AI-generated content, and the people that you grew up watching, loving, and just supporting or hating as, uh, uh, as a child, and, like, all that generation is now going to take over from the Boomers who are gonna be dying off and all of that. Um, I think you compound, just like an OpenAI and Anthropic are compounding even faster. So that's sort of like, I'm just kind of excited just on the, on the path forward because it's basically like celebrity survivor battle, right? Like, literally everyone has died off except for, like, the predestined few, and I think the predestined few literally should be, like, the future billionaire, trillionaires-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- GWGeoff Woo
... if you just extrapolate out that exponential.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- GWGeoff Woo
'Cause there's gonna be fewer real people that, like, you, like, care about. And I think where I would almost, like, juxtapose Jake and Logan with, like, a MrBeast, and I don't... I mean, whatever. I'll just, I'll just say it as, like, I feel like MrBeast is, like, so quantitative and analytical that it doesn't matter if Jimmy's in the video or not. Like, swap him out for another, you know, game show host. Maybe they're not as smooth, but I don't think Jimmy would say that he's even that smooth of a natural, like, actor or character. But, like, his analytics and his taste in terms of selecting the content for him is very, very strong. Where I think Jake has a lot of durability is that, like, you, you, like, follow his story. Like, you... I guess, like, one way to think about it is that, like, if Jake can just talk and get a bunch of views or just live his life and get a bunch of views, and someone has to, like, $100 million on fire to get a bunch of views, who do I wanna be partners with? Who do, who do I think has true skill and true charisma, um, without overly calling other people? But, like, I think that is, like, a measure in terms of, like, how you take, like, an analytical lens and, like, a structural lens to how do you backward engineer what has Jake has been able to accomplish.
- ETErik Torenberg
To that end, you, you just said, you know, cas- people need to figure out how to monetize. How have you figured out what's worth doing from a business perspective and what's not worth doing? Like, for example, um, I, I don't know if you've been in feature films yet or in, or had major, major roles. Like, should you be doing that, or is that a waste of time? Like, there's a whole set of activities that where you could do it, you'd have some special access or opportunity to do it. People might be telling you you should do it. Uh, how, how do you think about that?
- JPJake Paul
That's something that we've talked about and explored, and there's been opportunities on the table to act, for example. But I think it's just, like, what was the time expenditure? What was the, like, return in terms of, you know, how much money are we making here? And then who are the people involved? And is it gonna perform well? And do we like this script? And, um, there's the risk w- of something going wrong and just, like, it flops at the box office and everyone shits on you. Like, it happens all the time. So I think it's, yeah, just staying focused, right? Like, having the boxing as the core of, of everything for many years and, um, and content. And so never getting away from your bread and butter and staying extremely focused on that and having the great teams around to, to help with all of those things. Um, but yeah, I think things now have to be, like, 10, 20, $30 million opportunities for me to spend time on it. And so I think it's pretty measurable, um, from that side of things to the, you know, figure out if, if it's exciting in that sense. Um, and then I think just on the, besides the money thing and just brand building, I've just been doing it for
- 34:13 – 44:43
Press, controversy, and streamer culture
- JPJake Paul
so long that it's just, like, instinctual. Like, is this a good idea? Yes or no? And, uh, it's pretty, pretty obvious, but there are strategy talks and high-level people that huddle around the board and, um, sometimes I'll film a piece of content and maybe not post it because it doesn't make sense. So there is, like, processes and teams that look at everything and conversations, and it, it is pretty strategic, but a lot of it also is just, like, instinctual and on the fly, and it becomes more and more obvious as time goes on what the good opportunities are.
- ETErik Torenberg
To that end, is, is all good press good pr- good press or, or, or... Sorry. Is all, all press good press, or most attention good attention? Or w- when you look at some of the controversial moments that you guys have been through or that you see other people in through, do you think that they, uh, have been successful in spite of those moments or because of the instinct that led to those moments? Or h- how do you think about in this new era of attention, um, yeah, this question?
- JPJake Paul
I would say that not all press is good press, um, for certain people. For me, yes.
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- JPJake Paul
Because I can, like, survive it and, like-
- ETErik Torenberg
You're anti-fragile.
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, and just it's, it's, you know... What are they gonna say? Like, the, my neigh- Like, the f- first reason I was hated from the very beginning, like, on a ma- in the mainstream was because I jumped on top of a news van.
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- JPJake Paul
So it's like that, that's seriously why people started hating me. They're like, "Look at this douchebag kid." I was, like, making fun of the news reporter's shoes.
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- JPJake Paul
And it's like, okay, like, it seemed like bad press at the time, but, like, that was, like, my first, like, mainstream moment really, um, in the, in the press. And so, um, I think for certain people, all press is good press, but I don't think it's a saying that is good for, for everybody and holds true for everybody.
- GWGeoff Woo
Everything you do has risk. Just don't t-take fatal risk. Like, just don't get yourself killed. And probably, and don't go to jail. Though people have come back from that.
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- GWGeoff Woo
But, like, don't go to jail. Don't die, and as long as you take risks and calculated bets and keep compounding, you'll eventually end up somewhere good. So I, I think that's like my take on that, on that question which is that like I think most people are just too afraid to do anything that even warrants press. So, so like I think when you're already have a platform then yes, maybe you can be a little more cautious, but most people are just totally irrelevant. Like you need to do something a little bit risky to even get to a place to be cancelable. Most people can't even be canceled 'cause you didn't exist.
- JPJake Paul
[laughs]
- GWGeoff Woo
So the, the general advice is like yo, just live more and do more shit in general 'cause y- you're nothing and you maybe can get out of nothing.
- JPJake Paul
Retard max.
- GWGeoff Woo
Yeah, another way.
- JPJake Paul
[laughs]
- GWGeoff Woo
Retard max is, is, is cool too. Yeah.
- JPJake Paul
[laughs] The, um, I want to understand this new media environment by analyzing a, a couple people. Can you guys explain Clavicular? A- as in why is it... What, what's his talent? What makes him s- so, so successful? What advice might you have for, for, for someone like that? Um, h- how do you make sense of him? I mean, I recently- I mean, it's kind of what you just said, what Geoff just said, is and he's doing it on the, on the highest level. It's entertaining. I think I've, I've had this saying that, um, I've used and I think it holds true in the world of entertainment is that people want to see something they've never seen before. And so it's so new and fresh and different and kind of crazy, but a lot of the stuff he says is true. His delivery isn't always the [laughs] best or whatever and he is like very abrasive and doesn't care. But he's talking about a lot of relevant things and everything is out there about him so you fully know him and he's not afraid to be fully authentic and say exactly, uh, expose himself to the world and I don't think people have done that and n- and that's why I think he's, he's been successful and then he's also doing things that generate bad press but it, you know, good news travels fast, bad news travels faster so it's growing his brand like wildfire and then it just turns into this like loop and he's able to convert it actually into views and then he, he keeps on going and all of that. Um, but I, yeah, it, it is, it is pretty wild and um, I think the streaming culture is like really interesting and probably not the best for society because like there's so many of these kids watching and I actually feel like what I was doing on YouTube, like this is the final iteration of it and um, I feel bad for like sort of contributing to where this has gone but at the time I like never thought of that or like okay I set the bar here as crazy and now people h- the streamers have to do it every day for multiple hours and to keep people's attention they're having to like do out of pocket shit, um, which I don't think is like a good influence. Um, but there's obviously it, it's entertaining so. And just to, for people not as familiar, my understanding from my limited, uh, you know, observations is he, some of his content is, well he's a streamer and some of his content is him like going to the club and talking to girls and having very sort of humorous conversations and then some content is sort of focused on his looksmaxxing journey and just giving a lot of advice and do, do- doing interviews and kind of saying, you know, sort of out of pocket, uh, sort of shit, to, to your, your term around sort of, um, relationships or gender norms or just sort of like, you know, um, how to look much better. Um, so much to the extent he's, he's invested so much that there was rumors for a while that he may be, um, not able to have, conceive or something that he may have, um, but I, I think that's no longer true. I, I can't remember exactly. Is, is that an accurate summary of what Clavic- like what is Clavicular doing? Yeah. I would say that's accurate with the noting like, um, yeah he's definitely like very controversial and like [laughs] taking drugs- Yeah ... on the stream and doing pretty crazy things like that so yeah.
- GWGeoff Woo
Yeah he spent, I mean he spent some time like he, he, he like joined Jake's first live stream ever like what was he like in person like?
- JPJake Paul
I thought he was nice. Yeah.
- GWGeoff Woo
Yeah.
- JPJake Paul
Thought he was a nice guy. Definitely pretty wild on his stream though. [laughs] And, and I'm wild you know as an entertainer known as that I can turn that on but yeah so if I like him saying that then it's probably pretty, pretty wild. Yeah. Is um, streamer culture today, when you say you were sort of the previous evolution where do you see it all going? Yeah is it just gonna get crazier and crazier? Are we gonna sort of see new formats or how do you sort of envision the future of kind of like what you you know helped, helped create? Yeah I think we will see new formats and people pop up that are unique and different but I, I think that the players that are in it now and are the biggest now will likely remain the biggest. Um, and so I don't think it'll shift too much in terms of like all the personalities but I do think things will get crazy, slightly crazier. Um, but I, it's probably already near its peak because the platforms now like aren't allowing ther- certain things to be streamed- Yeah ... and they're already getting like you know deplatformed if they do certain things so I think it's probably uh, at its, at its peak right now with some of the things that are going on.
- GWGeoff Woo
I mean talking about like you can't die you can't go to jail right like at some point someone's gonna step on that and boom.
- JPJake Paul
Yeah.
- GWGeoff Woo
Like you peak you, that the end, end game of that.
- JPJake Paul
Yeah I recently learned that there's like-
- ETErik Torenberg
Uh, that Kick is like a Twitch but more edgy. Um, but then there's like Rumble is like a even more edgy version of that. [chuckles] So there's just like different streaming platforms for different levels of edginess.
- 44:43 – 54:09
Faith, conviction, and getting into politics
- GWGeoff Woo
it, then like there's no conviction there. So in some sense, if you just choose the right battles to fight for and you're willing to take those arrows because you believe in the mission and you believe in the message, that almost like helps you with that faith because like y- you, you actually believe and, and, and, and have conviction in what you're fighting for. Like, you know, we're invested in some of the top most high-profile AI companies and, and, and, and those are some of the topics that we're able to just like-- and I think J- especially Jake can like share his perspective on, right? If people are going through like really high profile, uh, like hate on social media or litigation and controversy, I think Jake having lived through that at, at, at some of the highest levels and sharing that, how he deals with it is like just super helpful for founders that we talk to and work with. Um, but I think it just goes back to like, I think if they believe in the mission they're doing, right? Like if you think that you're making beneficial AGI or you're really believe like fusion energy or defense tech and making Americans have the best weapon systems as really important, which we think are, is really important, then having that strength to fight and battle for that, uh, makes it easier if you have that self-conviction that what you're doing is correct.
- ETErik Torenberg
You know, someone once asked, uh, Clifford, uh, Clifford something like, um, you know, "It seems like you're not that interested in politics. What, why is that?" And he said something like, "It doesn't help me with my looksmaxxing journey." Um, so as they say, uh, how have you guys sort of approached politics or not approached politics or, yeah, how, how have you guys thought about that?
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, I think, um, it's always been my goal and a part of who I am since I was younger is to like help the people around me, um, and to be a leader and to speak my mind on certain things. And I think when I'm in this position of having a large audience, and as an American, we all have our right to our opinion and to voice our opinion. That's one of the most beautiful things about this country, and I think with a lot of people, uh, following me, I've taken it upon myself to speak my mind on what I believe in and to, um, hopefully help others understand as well and grow a deeper understanding of politics and some of the things that are going on. And I believe it's important as an American to exercise that right to our opinion and to voice our opinion, and I've just slowly, you know, started to talk more and more about it openly. And I think it comes from my dad as well. He was very political growing up, and I've always been involved in it and seen it and talking about it, and I think it's the biggest game in life. And, um, I think it's interesting to be in those rooms and to talk to those people and to, uh, help them, you know, potentially win, um, certain elections, whether that's governor or president or senator. So it's just been interesting and, and fun and, and I think it really truly does make an impact to the American people and society.
- GWGeoff Woo
And I was gonna say, uh, that's one thing I respect about Jake, 'cause I know that a lot of people in the public eye are too afraid to step into politics because it's not good for business, right? Like Michael Jordan, like everyone buys shoes wherever, like-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- GWGeoff Woo
... that, that quote. Um, but I respect that Jake, you know, we just had a conversation about this where it's like, you know, like if you actually have conviction, like God or your faith will like pay full dividends for that conviction, right? And I think, uh, there's, and I think there's something to like life and your family and your s- culture, your neighborhood, your community is Arguably more important than just like stacking more-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- GWGeoff Woo
... zeros behind your account, right? Like, at a certain point, like you win the money maxing game, you win the money game, then it's like, can you actually create a better livelihood for yourself, your kids, your neighbors, your community? Um, and it takes courageous people like Jake to be like, "Hey, like I, I'm okay to like takes a little bit of risk-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- GWGeoff Woo
... and maybe piss off a, a segment of people, but I truly believe in this. It's not some BS." Like it's, there's like this like deep conviction that he will sacrifice monetary-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- GWGeoff Woo
... opportunity or just reduce optionality because there's true belief and true conviction behind his perspective. That's what, that would, that, that is what leadership actually is.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- GWGeoff Woo
So there's no leaders out there, and we're totally screwed, so we need people to step up and lead.
- ETErik Torenberg
Could you see yourself running someday for some sort of elected position?
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, I could see me being involved for sure, and I think it's like become [laughs] more and more of a thing. I think Geoff was the first person actually to like talk about it six years ago, and then obviously President Trump like endorsed me on stage to run for president, and then backstage was like, "I think you should really do it," et cetera. I would only wanna be involved in it if I was like the best person to do it, um, and to help the, the country. Um, and if some other people on the other side of things that weren't good for the country felt like they had traction, um, I would probably do it to, yeah, help the people of America and make sure we don't get wrapped up into this like whole socialist communist thing that's going on like in New York with Mom Don Dummy, Mom Dummy.
- GWGeoff Woo
[laughs]
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, that's it. Um, it's really bad, and it, it will lead to [laughs] um, America being in a very, very bad place. And so if something like that's going on and there's something I can do to, to help, then yeah, of course, I'm gonna wanna get involved or even maybe just help push a candidate and support them.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah. So you spent the first 15 years or so, you know, we're talking about media, you know, uh, boxing, uh, tech. If you were to guess over the next five to 10 years, um, what's something else you might add to your repertoire, um, besides obviously c- going much bigger in the areas you're already in? W- what, what could that be?
- JPJake Paul
I would probably say, yeah, the, the most like obvious one that I'm like super passionate about is, is definitely politics.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- JPJake Paul
And that seems to, you know, grow as I get older as well because of what Geoff s- was saying is like how do I... Okay, we have the money, we have this stuff. Like how do I help the world and do my part? And I have the courage, and I believe the right mindset on it and the w- right way to think about it, and finding truth not only within myself, but that becomes a practice out there in the world. And so I believe that a lot of my takes and opinions and thoughts on it are, are the ones closest to truth and really just finding what's best, uh, for the people and for the country and, um, for, you know, creating the future for my kids, and if I can be helpful in that. And I think, and I know I can, and I know I have very, a very good way of thinking about things, um, then yeah, I would definitely see myself in the next 10 to 15 years in that arena for sure.
- ETErik Torenberg
W- h- last question on this topic. High level, what are the, what's a topic or what are the topics that you care most about in, in, in that arena that, of making sure we really get right?
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, education first and foremost.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah.
- JPJake Paul
And I think it's like so, it's, it's bad. It hasn't been reformed since-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- JPJake Paul
... you know, what, the 1920s, the 1930s. There's been no change, and the world has changed so much, and I think there, you see with, you know, being in the investing world, you see some of these like newer aged startups that are focused on school popping up. Um, I th- what's the one? A- Alpha, Alpha School. Very like impressed with what they're doing, and I think creating that future, you're almost, you know, planting seeds of a fruit tree with changing the education system because then in 30, 40 years, the country is gonna have s- a lot smarter people, a lot better educated people, and that ripple effect just impacts society so much and in a massive way, and we also don't wanna fall behind with other, other countries. And I think it also lends itself to finance, and the number one problem I think that's out there right now with young men and young women even is like how do they make money? Where do they make money? And if that education is in place and you're prepared and you actually learn about maybe how to do taxes in school [laughs] and not like about the fucking, uh, Pythagorean theorem,
- 54:09 – 1:00:05
Education, college, and collecting "badges"
- JPJake Paul
I, I think [laughs] that would be a much better outcome for the people of America. And, um, it's just wild to me that something like that isn't taught, a- amongst many other things. And so I believe the economy would thrive more from education, and yeah, the list goes, the list goes on, but-
- GWGeoff Woo
I mean, I think one thing that's cool is like the Invest America accounts, the Trump accounts.
- JPJake Paul
Totally.
- GWGeoff Woo
I know that Jake is supporting the team there on that. Maybe you wanna talk a little bit more about that, but I think in terms of allowing the next generation of young Americans actually participate With the fastest growing private companies and having them, uh, be a s- shareholder and a stakeholder in success of American innovation is really, really important, right? That ties into education, right? To, to Jake's point, if people don't grow up knowing how to compound their money, right? Like, I think it's, I, I... People should know the Pythagorean theorem and the quadratic equation, but yes, you should know-
- ETErik Torenberg
No, they shouldn't
- GWGeoff Woo
... actually how, like, taxes-
- ETErik Torenberg
They shouldn't. That's literally taking up space in my brain.
- GWGeoff Woo
[laughs] But, like, knowing how-
- ETErik Torenberg
And I don't have a lot of space, okay? So [laughs]
- GWGeoff Woo
But knowing how, like, wealth compounds and-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- GWGeoff Woo
... how, uh, is really important. And I think with, like, the Trump accounts, like, having every little kid see their little stock portfolio-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- GWGeoff Woo
... and realizing, "Hey," like, "this is how money and investing works," is super important.
- ETErik Torenberg
To, to that end, uh, Geoff, if you were 18 today, um, knowing what you know, would you go to college? Or, uh, like, do you advise people to go to college? How do you think about that?
- GWGeoff Woo
Um, yeah, I, I, I, I think Peter Thiel in some sense is, like, kinda hypocritical when he's like, "Don't go to college," where he had Stanford undergrad and Stanford Law School. He got all the badges, right? So not... But I, but I think the underlying point is correct. But to me, like, getting a badge is useful if you don't have any other badges, right? Like, Jake could not have to have the institutional badge of being educated because he became world-class at what he does as a content creator, an athlete, a, a media personality, an entertainer. But if you're not like Jake, then you need to, like, get some external badges, right? Like, you gotta win a science fair or win a math competition. And if it happens to be like, you know, y- you get, you go to Harvard, that's a really good badge to say, like, "Hey," at some external validator that you're at least good at something, right? Um, so to me, it's like y- you, you... I, I think all of us should try to aspire to be best in the world at something, and it could be the best violin player, it could be the best businessperson, it could be the best boxer, or the best, like, I don't know, podcaster, or just the best, like, artist, or, or the best, like, doodler, right? But, like, everyone should have some God-given, like, talent to be potentially the best in the world at. And then two, if there's, like, education badges that help you, like, validate and give you that confidence that you can be, I think that's actually very valuable. But I think in terms of, like, the c- educational content, um, I think that will be reformed there, right? Like, I think the education system will change, but I think the badging system will not change. So my advice would be, like, collect some badges as a kid, right? Become the best YouTuber, or go to Stanford, go to Harvard. Get some badges, and that I think gives you a lot of confidence-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- GWGeoff Woo
... to, like, do the next thing, uh, uh, like a, a real thing.
- ETErik Torenberg
Jake, are you seriously considering going to Stanford?
- JPJake Paul
I went there today, and I was like, "This is beautiful."
- ETErik Torenberg
[laughs]
- JPJake Paul
We went to the church, and, um, yeah, I don't know. I think it could be funny or interesting, but I, I, I would definitely, uh... I, I think it would lend itself, like, I, I do have NFL aspirations-
- ETErik Torenberg
Oh, wow
- JPJake Paul
... uh, after boxing. I wanna play slot receiver, and so I think to, you know, get that experience in college first would be good, so I could walk onto the Stanford team. It, yeah, it... [laughs] I'm, I'm being serious though, yeah.
- ETErik Torenberg
Well, it, this might be the first, uh, podcast that you, you mention it, so.
- JPJake Paul
It is. [laughs] And it happened, the idea of it happened today, 'cause I was like, well, I was originally thinking I'll just go straight to the Cleveland Browns or Dallas Cowboys, but it, they're probably gonna wanna see me play first, and so it might be better if I start off in college and, um, have a little bit of an advantage over the younger, not as big kids before going into the NFL.
- ETErik Torenberg
That's amazing. The, um, um, I wanna close on some, uh, anti-fun topics. Um, Geoff, you talked a little bit about founder taste and how important it is and how, how rare it is to actually have it. T- talk about what it means and, and how you guys have developed it.
- GWGeoff Woo
I mean, I think through both our journeys, I mean, I think... I remember, like, some of our early conversations with Jake, like, Jake's met some of the most fucking weird, crazy hustler, scammy people through his career to, like, going, you know, 16 to Hollywood, and just, like, getting thrown to the wolves, right? So I think, and, like, me coming up in Silicon Valley, Stanford, Y Combinator, uh, I think we just got a lot of reps at meeting people, getting pitched things, doing bad deals, making mistakes. Um, so I don't... Uh, there might be some talent or EQ or people-reading skill, but I think a lot of it's, is probably just a ton of reps, right? Like, and again, maybe going full circle to the top, like, I think, I remember when I was like, you know, we were catching up when Jake was 23, 24, I was like, "Oh man, this guy's, like, got a lot of reps on a lot of stuff that, like, 50-year-old men never deal with," right? Just like, oh, like litigation, this, business deals, someone, uh-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- GWGeoff Woo
... b- business issues, or success, like, right? Like, just, he just had a, like, he just, uh, like, he lives in dog years, right? Like, I, uh, that's like, uh, I feel like that's... Laura, uh, recently joined, uh, stand up Jake's, uh, family office
- 1:00:05 – 1:04:09
Founder taste, investing, and what's next
- GWGeoff Woo
and, and, and, and, and s- and, and running it. I mean, it's like the amount of stuff that we've done in the last couple of months is just, like, probably it's, like, two years' worth of, like, sh- shit in, like, two months. Um, uh, so, so I think that there, there's, like, that people-reading aspect, but I think it ultimately goes down to, like, okay, um, do they have a passion and, like, a reason to believe why they can be world-class at what they choose to pursue? And then two, are they resilient and tough enough to eat a ton of shit to get there? Um-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- GWGeoff Woo
... those are, like, the two, uh, like, attributes, and I think that's, like, you know, some measure of IQ and then personality read.
- JPJake Paul
And, and just, yeah, track record, you know, and, um, leaning on, on other people that we trust and respect for background, um, on certain people and their dealings with them. So I think reference checks are also very important for us. It's, um, yeah, one of the companies we invest in, like a defense tech, we just like hit up Palmer Luckey's team and we're like, "Yeah, what do you think of this group?" Um, so always referencing our, our network for the certain categories of things that we're working on, and that's proven to work really well.
- ETErik Torenberg
You- you've made investments in some iconic companies. We listed some of them earlier. We'll also put the, uh, you know, a bunch in the show notes. But you, you've also incubated, you know, getting a bit better. Um, could you, could you see yourself incubating more, uh, co- companies where you have unfair advantage like you did in sort of, uh, you know, bet- betting or how do you think about that?
- JPJake Paul
Yeah, definitely. I think, um, have been noodling on certain things to found currently, um, and just like seeing how the world is evolving with this current, you know, AI boom and just seeing the world change and all of this stuff. And so there's been ideas and, you know, we've grown some of these companies so where they like run themselves, like Better for example, and I spend a limited amount of time on it, um, now because it's just the team is fully built out. And so I think there is a dynamic shift happening for us right now where there's kind of an open-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- JPJake Paul
... slot to potentially found and start something new in this current landscape. And it's definitely enticing, um, but obviously th- there's so much going on right now and, you know, you could launch a company and then, you know, OpenAI or Claude replicates it next week and-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- JPJake Paul
... um, you're kind of shit out of luck.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah, totally. I-- Anecd- we were talking earlier about the need to monetize it. Anecdotally, I've, I've seen the sort of creator class get a lot smarter and more sophisticated about, you know, w- we've a number of people like yourself getting into venture, getting into private equity. But even, uh, w- you know, Jimmy was originally making chocolate, now he's just bought a bank. He's like, "Hey, I can make a dollar off a customer, maybe I can make hundreds of dollars off, off a customer." And so y- you guys getting into actually building software product, you know, and companies sort of... I feel like people are getting more sophisticated about where the value is, and, um, I'm excited to see that trend continue.
- JPJake Paul
Yeah. Thank you. And yeah, I think as we become more sophisticated, yeah, it's like cool to sell, you know, I won't say like which companies or whatever, but like-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- JPJake Paul
... we wanna play a bigger game.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah. Totally.
- JPJake Paul
And, and shift humanity-
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah
- JPJake Paul
... w- you know, while doing that.
- ETErik Torenberg
Yeah. I think that's a good place to wrap.
- JPJake Paul
Yeah.
- ETErik Torenberg
Jake, Geoff, you guys are doing something really exciting. We're excited to be co-investors in a number of companies together and more to come. Thanks so much for coming to the podcast.
- JPJake Paul
Thank you. Thanks, man. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 1:04:18
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode yfafpyhB-8E
