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The Robot Lawyer Resistance with Joshua Browder of DoNotPay

Should AI belong in the courtroom? Joshua Browder ventured to run an experiment where a robot lawyer would defend a court case. Looking to up the ante, he even offered $1m for a Supreme Court hearing! His experiment was met with a threat of 6 months jail time. Listen in for the full story. Topics Covered: 00:00 - Introduction 01:46 - DoNotPay’s origin 03:03 - Surprising laws 05:47 - General counsel for consumers 07:04 - The role of AI and technology 09:27 - Ensuring quality counsel 13:16 - Prioritizing features 14:49 - Corporate pushback 17:19 - Reshaping the legal system 20:40 - Entering the physical courtroom 25:16 - Cross border possibilities 26:36 - Looping humans into modeling 29:26 - Deflationary impacts 30:31 - Recent pushback 33:46 - Is AI already writing law? 35:47 - Why is law so complex? 38:12 - Entering the Supreme Court 39:17 - Lawyer support 40:26 - Looking forward 43:56 - Building horizontal vs vertical 46:14 - Does this law exist? Resources: * DoNotPay: https://donotpay.com/ * Find Josh on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jbrowder1 Stay Updated: * Find a16z on Twitter: https://twitter.com/a16z * Find a16z on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/a16z * Subscribe on your favorite podcast app: https://a16z.simplecast.com/ * Follow our host: https://twitter.com/stephsmithio Please note that the content here is for informational purposes only; should NOT be taken as legal, business, tax, or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security; and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a16z fund. For more details please see a16z.com/disclosures.

Joshua BrowderguestSteph Smithhost
Mar 1, 202349mWatch on YouTube ↗

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At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

DoNotPay's Joshua Browder on Robot Lawyers Fighting Corporations and Legal Establishment

  1. DoNotPay began when Joshua Browder automated parking ticket appeals for friends and has grown over almost seven years into a horizontal consumer rights platform with over two million cases submitted and hundreds of thousands of active subscribers.
  2. The company is shifting from template-based document automation to true AI, with an upcoming medical bill negotiation product built on the No Surprises Act and a scraped database of 1.4 million hospital price rows.
  3. Browder's plan to have AI coach defendants in traffic court through bone conduction glasses drew threats of prosecution for unauthorized practice of law from state bar associations, which he attributes to a protectionist legal industry.
  4. Browder says generic AI models need retraining, guardrails and lawyer review because they can lie and talk too much, and he argues the stakes are low for most consumer rights disputes.
  5. Looking ahead, Browder predicts instant class actions, deflationary pressure from AI-run customer service, and worries about anti-AI laws pushed by large companies.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Consumer rights are a gap lawyers rarely fill

Browder argues lawyers don't typically take small consumer disputes, so corporations know people can't fight back; software can do the form-letter work cheaply, and companies often grant refunds more than 80% of the time.

AI raises the value of cases that can be pursued

Templates suited $100 disputes, but AI that can respond back and forth lets DoNotPay take on $10,000 medical bills, which Browder says is part of a goal to 10X the average customer savings.

Generic AI models need guardrails for legal work

Browder says models like DaVinci aren't good at law out of the box, so DoNotPay feeds them past outcomes and works with firms like Wilson Sonsini. The AI tends to fabricate facts and to speak when it shouldn't, so extra AIs decide whether to respond.

The legal establishment resists AI as protectionism

State bar associations threatened to prosecute for unauthorized practice of law; Browder argues AI is not a person, while attributing the pushback to lawyers' fear of losing work and a cultural mismatch.

Some cases are too emotional for software

Browder's early attempt to automate asylum cases failed because courtroom emotion and human touch can't be handled by software, and he says he would still advise a lawyer for serious accusations.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

Lawyers love rules, and they love, uh, accusing people of breaking the rules, and I think they're scared of this technology. Um, it's like the dinosaurs suing to stop the Ice Age.

— Joshua Browder

AI isn't perfect, but at least it's objective, and it can't get drunk the night before the case.

— Joshua Browder

There are so many laws that help consumers that no one has the time to actually follow through with, and that's a great job for technology.

— Joshua Browder

In the future, I imagine a world where you didn't even know that something happened. Robot lawyers were fighting for you in the background, and almost immediately, they get you the refund or something back.

— Joshua Browder

It typically gets in the hands of massive corporations and governments first. So our role is give power to the people first.

— Joshua Browder

DoNotPay's origin in parking ticketsObscure consumer rights laws automationTemplates versus true AIMedical bill negotiation and the No Surprises ActBar association pushback and AI in the courtroomDeflationary effects of AI customer serviceHorizontal strategy and future of law

High quality AI-generated summary created from speaker-labeled transcript.

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