ADHD Chatter Podcast#1 Harvard Doctor: THIS food turns ADHD into a SUPERPOWER in 3 hours! - Dr Georgia Ede
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
65 min read · 12,799 words- 0:00 – 2:05
Trailer
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Many people with ADHD don't just have trouble with attention and function, they also have trouble with mood. Twice as likely to have a co-occurring mental health disorder, such as anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, substance use. All of these conditions are symptoms of brain malfunction. By improving the way you nourish and energize and protect the brain with your diet, you have the potential to improve the brain's operating system. Dr. Georgia Ede is a Harvard trained psychiatrist- Who specializes in ADHD, nutrition, and mental health. She uses her expertise to simplify the simple steps we can take- To optimize our ADHD brain. Most of us have been feeding our brains improperly our entire lives, even those of us who are paying attention to the headlines and the latest research and doing our best to follow those guidelines and eat better for brain health. That information is largely incorrect. All of our food is now pre-processed for us. We don't have to chew it. It's had its cellular integrity completely destroyed. So when we swallow it, the body doesn't recognize it as food.
- APAlex Partridge
The traits that we associate with ADHD, what superfoods might benefit ADHD?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
So here's a hot take. [laughs] There's no such thing as a brain superfood.
- APAlex Partridge
Quick one before I get distracted. I just wanted to say a very brief thank you to all of my listeners. Thank you for tuning in, and thank you for subscribing and following the podcast. It really, really helps. At ADHD Chatter, my mission is to ask the world-leading experts the hard questions to give you access to the most pioneering advice the world has to offer, and with an aim to help you feel seen. Following and subscribing helps me on my mission to book these incredibly insightful guests and to give you these incredibly insightful interviews. Remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. Georgia, thank you so much for joining us.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Alex, thank you very much for inviting me.
- APAlex Partridge
ADHD traits can be improved by making small tweaks, changes to your diet, is a fascinating co- topic of conversation, and I'm super keen to jump into that. But first,
- 2:05 – 3:17
Georgia’s mission
- APAlex Partridge
what's your mission in the world of ADHD, and how does diet play into that?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
So my mission in the world of ADHD and mental health in general is giving people hope, uh, helping them understand that they have so much more control over their mental health than they realize because most of us have been feeding our brains improperly our entire lives, even those of us who are paying attention to the headlines and the latest research and doing our best to follow those guidelines and eat better for brain health. Um, that information is largely incorrect, and so it's not very helpful. But if you know which changes are the right ones to make, you can actually experience tremendous improvements, uh, in total mental health, especially mental clarity, um, uh, within days to weeks.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm. So interesting, and obviously this is, uh, an ADHD podcast. Uh, and I've seen you on other podcasts talk about nutrition more broadly, um, in an in-depth, fascinating way, and I wonder
- 3:17 – 17:46
How nutrition impacts ADHD
- APAlex Partridge
in what way can nutrition help somebody with stereo- stereotypical ADHD traits?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
I- in every way you can imagine, so everything is possible. There's so much potential, and really it depends on the person because some people will experience tremendous benefits across the board with all of their symptoms, in-- not just executive function, but also emotional regulation, uh, feelings of overwhelm, anxiety. Uh, as you know, many people with ADHD don't just have trouble with attention and function, they also have, uh, trouble with mood. Uh, they may-- more, much more likely to have anxiety, much more likely to have depression, twice as likely to have a co-occurring mental health disorder-
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
... such as anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, substance use. And so, um, all of these, all of these conditions are symptoms of brain malfunction. And so by improving the way you feed and energize the brain, you-- the way you nourish and energize and protect the brain with your diet, you have the, the potential to improve really the brain's operating system, fundamentally improve the brain's operating system. And when that happens, you may see some or all of those symptoms get better. So it really depends on the person. And so the, the reason why I do this work is because I really want people to try these changes to see what's possible for them. So when somebody comes to me and says, "Will this help me with my ADHD? Will this help me with my depression? Will this help me with anxiety?" Um, I say, "Well, you know what? I don't know, but let's find out. Let's find out what's possible for you." And the only way to find out is to try.
- APAlex Partridge
It's fascinating. If we c- sort of go through some of the traits you mentioned there, we'll start with, say, anxiety. What might be some little changes someone could make to really target that trait?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Yeah. So, so one of the things that's driving anxiety is, uh, stress hormones, and the fast-- So yes, of course, stress in your life can cause anxiety. We all know that. But anxiety can also be, uh, triggered from within based on the foods you're eating. And the biggest driver of stress hormone, uh, problems, of chaos in your stress hormone levels, is eating a diet that causes glucose levels to spike out of the normal range. So if you're, if you're on this glucose rollercoaster, which most people are... So most people are eating refined carbohydrates and sugary, starchy foods that, that spike your glucose out of the healthy range three to six times a day.And when you do that, your glucose levels are on this rollercoaster all day long. And every time you get a glucose spike in your bloodstream, you also get an insulin spike on its tail to deal with that glucose. And so it brings the glucose back down to normal, and you might think, "Okay, well, what's wrong? As long as the glucose comes back down to normal quickly, what's the problem?" Well, the problem is that the, the insulin is not just a glucose regulator, it's a powerful-- it's a master metabolic hormone. And so it is communicating with and regulating the levels and activity of many other hormones in the body, including your stress hormones. So when your glucose comes down, if it-- when-- as insulin's pulling that glucose down back to normal range, the body feels that happening, senses that happening, and, and responds as if it's an emergency because plummeting glucose could quickly kill you if not kept in check. So the insulin brings it down, but you have to have other hormones to keep it from bottoming out. So insulin pulls it down, but then you have these other hormones that, that protect it from plunging you into dangerous hypoglycemia, including adrenaline and cortisol. These are stress hormones. And so if you're on this glucose and insulin rollercoaster all day long, you're not just on a glucose and insulin rollercoaster, you're on an adrenaline rollercoaster, you're on a cortisol rollercoaster. Your reproductive hormones are also going along for the ride. Your blood pressure-regulating hormones, your appetite regulation hormones, your satiety hormones, many other hormones get pulled into that cycle, and so you're unstable from within. And so simply by getting your glucose levels to, to come down and stabilize, that alone is-- can be a, a really, really powerful intervention in, uh, especially for people with anxiety, because so much of that anxiety is driven by this invisible internal hormonal rollercoaster that we put ourselves on without realizing it.
- APAlex Partridge
And does that same theory apply to, say, executive functioning traits like concentration, ability to stay organized?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Yes. So the brain, uh, does not like glucose spikes. [chuckles] It, it needs some glucose at all times, but it doesn't need much. In fact, so the blood-brain barrier, which separates our general circulation from the, um, from the fluids inside the brain, d- essentially keeps the brain glucose level about eighty percent lower than the blood glucose level because, again, it doesn't need much glucose. But the brain did not evolve to, um, be able to cope with our modern industrialized food environment. It never expected to see hundreds of grams of refined carbohydrate. Refined carbohydrates are sugars, flours, cereals, fruit juices, things that are essentially naked carbohydrates that turn instantly into glucose in the bloodstream without you really having to bat an eye, and they're, they're absorbed rapidly into the bloodstream, and they give you this sharp spike in glucose. So these refined carbohydrates, um, were not part of our, of our natural-- were not a significant part of our natural food environment a long time ago. But now these things are everywhere, [clears throat] and people are eating them up to six times a day in most cases. So, um, the brain did not evolve to see these. So the problem with this is that the higher the blood glucose, the higher the brain glucose. There is no way for the brain to put a cap on how much glucose comes in because it was never expecting to be bombarded by hundreds of grams of refined carbohydrate multiple times per day. And so it, it-- there's-- it's, it's not prepared to defend itself against those-- that tsunami of glucose molecules. So the glucose comes flooding into the brain, and because the brain only needs a small amount, what is it gonna do with the rest of it? The rest of it literally sticks. It sticks to all the important components of the brain, DNA molecules, proteins, lipids, membranes, all, all the important structures of the brain and, and, and, and caramelizes them essentially, kind of turns them into these sticky, disfigured, dysfunctional molecules or heaps called advanced glycation end products. These are, um, abbreviated AGE, AGEs, which is appropriate because they're also one of the main drivers of premature aging of the brain and other tissues throughout the body, skin and so forth. And so these advanced glycation end products, uh, as they're accumulating in the brain, they trigger the brain's immune system because they're-- they shouldn't be there, and they're causing problems. They're getting in the way as they're piling up. So the brain's immune cells patrolling the area saying, "Oh, what are these sticky clumps? We need to get rid of these." They sound-- they call the first responder system, and they deliberately release inflammatory cytokines, these are little s- inflammatory signaling molecules, and oxygen-free radicals to deliberately create inflammation and oxidative stress. That's like your brain's first responder system. If you have brain injury or if you have, um, a brain infection, the same process will happen. Um, so you get this, these waves of inflammation and oxidative stress that if they're allowed to proceed unchecked and you don't get a chance to heal... This is supposed to be temporaryTargeted, controlled. But for most people who are eating this way three, four, five, six times a day, they're getting wave after wave of inflammation and oxidative stress, which is very damaging to the brain. And it, it's meant to be a short-term thing. And so there, there's never a chance for the brain to heal and go back to its previous happy state. So what you see, and you see this across many different mel- mental health disorders, not just ADHD, but you definitely see in AD-- is, is chronic inflammation and chronic excessive what's called oxidative stress. And these directly physically damage the brain, all structures of the brain, including the hippocampus, where memory and, and concentration are, are seated, but also the, the blood-brain barrier and many other important structures of the brain. So, and, and, and over time, flooding the brain with too much glucose damages the brain's ability, ironically, paradoxically, compromises the brain's ability to use glucose for energy. And that's where the executive function piece comes in because first of all, a brain that's under attack is not gonna be able to function very well, um, under attack from inflammation and oxidative stress. But a brain that can't produce enough energy, reliable, smooth energy supply is critical to every aspect of brain function, but especially executive function. And so really make-- protecting the brain's ability to generate energy smoothly and reliably is one of the most important things we can do to optimize and protect our brain health for the rest of our lives.
- APAlex Partridge
And the buildup of these AGEs-
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
...in the brain, you just mentioned some short-term consequences of that.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Stress, lack of concentration. What might some other short-term consequences of a buildup of these AGEs be?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Well, uh, these waves of inflammation and oxidative stress actually, um, profoundly destabilize brain chemistry. So all these neurotransmitter imbalances that we talk about for the different mental-- so for about seventy-five years now, I mean, this is how I was trained, and I think this is how most people still think about mental health disorders. We think of them as chemical imbalances, um, disruptions in the balance of brain communication chemicals like dopamine and norepinephrine, which are two key neurotransmitters in ADHD, as I'm sure you and everyone watching your show already knows. Um, so dopamine, norepinephrine, um, but also-- so when you get these waves of inflammation, oxidative stress, you can profoundly, um, disrupt dopamine systems, serotonin systems, melatonin systems, which are responsible for circadian rhythm and sleep. Um, and then you can get really, um, strong imbalances between two major neurotransmitters in the brain called GABA and glutamate. And so you can kinda think of-- So these are, these are widespread throughout the brain, GABA and glutamate. And GABA you can think of as the brain's brake pedal. It's the brain's primary calming neurotransmitter. And g- uh, glutamate you can think of as the brain's gas pedal. It's kind of the brain's primary excitatory neurotransmitter. So the balance between these two, GABA and glutamate, essentially determines your brain's overall activity level at any given point in time. How focused or stimulated do I need to be? How relaxed do I need to be in this moment? Because there are times you're going to need to be more, uh, alert and vigilant, and other times you're gonna need to be calm and relaxed. And so, uh, it's a very flexible and dynamic system. Now, the problem is if you eat the wrong way, which most people are doing, um, then you can-- you get these waves of inflammation and oxidative stress that can raise glutamate levels in the brain to one hundred times their baseline level. And that's the gas pedal pushed to the floor. And now the brain is in overdrive. And so people can become very anxious. They can, even if they're prone to this, develop manic symptoms or hypomanic symptoms. People with bipolar disorder and bipolar mood tendencies can experience this. People have difficulty sleeping, difficulty concentrating, because when the brain is, is in this high alert mode, it, it's really hard for it to, it, for it to function in any other way. It's essentially, it's essentially, um, like if you were trying to c- sit and s-study calmly when there's a fire engine racing through your, through your library. And so it's not, it's not a calm, focused state. It's a, it's a, it's a really-- it's kind of a crisis state. And most people are eating in a way that, uh, puts them into that state of mind multiple times per day.
- APAlex Partridge
Super interesting because we speak a lot on this podcast about different ways to, to improve the traits of ADHD. We've spoken about medication, we've spoken about exercise, we've spoken about therapy, loads of different angles of attack. Um, but nutrition is, for me personally, such an overlooked topic. And if I were to
- 17:46 – 20:23
Small dietary changes that benefit ADHD
- APAlex Partridge
start taking your advice, what are some small dietary tweaks that I could make in, in, in my life that, that might improve my ADHD traits?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
So if you're looking for a small tweak-- So there, um, in my book, I put three different dietary patterns, but, uh, which people can explore. But I also put a list of-- [chuckles] I also put a list of single steps that people can try if they just want to say, "Well, what are the most important single-step changes I might try? Let's say I'm not ready to completely overhaul my diet from the ground up. What if I just wanna dip my toe in the water?" And so, um, so one of the things you can doIs you can, uh, you, you can remove the refined carbohydrate from the diet and just eat whole food sources of carbohydrate, which are fruits and vegetables, for example, instead of flours and cereals and juices and cakes and cookies and ice cream and, um, you know, anything, anything that's gonna spike your glucose too much. So essentially, these are factory carbohydrates as opposed to natural carbohydrates. Um, so an apple instead of apple juice, for example. Um, and so, uh, that one change is, it's a big change, and it's a difficult change because it's so different from the way most of us eat, but it can be a very impactful change. It is much harder to overeat whole food sources of carbohydrate than it is to eat-- to, to, uh, overeat refined sources of carbohydrate. And that's partly because refined carbohydrates are not processed by the body the same way. Our hormone systems don't respond to them in the same way. They don't even really recognize them as food, um, and so they kinda blow past your hormonal stop signs. And they're, for many people, addictive and wholly unsatisfying. In fact, they make you want to eat more of them. [chuckles] So, but that's not the case with whole foods. You can only eat so many bananas. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs] Wow.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
'Cause there's a lot of fiber and a lot of water. Um, and, uh, so, so, so the body understands when a piece of fruit or a starchy vegetable's coming through, it kinda knows what to do with that. And, and it will, it will stimulate your satiety, uh, hormones much more easily than a glass of fruit juice or a bowl of Cheerios or a bag of potato chips. These are, these are things that, um, that, that don't respect our kind of ancient hormonal stop signs.
- 20:23 – 27:46
How important is consistency when dieting for ADHD
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
[chuckles]
- APAlex Partridge
How important is consistency in this conversation? Because I think I'm-- I struggle with consistency towards things that don't excite me, um, and what... And I mean by things that don't give me, like, an immediate return or an immediate effect or re-result. Um, and I guess if you start changing your diet, is the effect going to be instantly recognizable? And if, if it's not, is it-- Like, how cons-- how important is consistency in a diet change for you to really notice the benefits?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
So two parts to that question. So how important is consistency, and what do you need to do to notice quick benefits so that if you want that quick return on your investment? Um, which people with ADHD love that, but everybody wants that, right? Everybody who wants to go through all the hard work of changing their diet and not see any results or wait weeks and weeks and weeks for results. And so the consis- how important is consistency? Um, it is important, but I wouldn't let it stand in the way of practicing to get better. Because if you set... You're gonna just set yourself up for feeling like a failure. If you, if you try something new and you're not perfect at it, um, then you might give up. And I don't want people to give up. I want-- 'cause dietary change is hard, and so, and it takes some practice, and that's totally okay. However, it can get really frustrating if you're not seeing the results you want. So, so the change that I just suggested, if, you know, one powerful change you can make is removing the refined carbohydrates from your diet, that might help some people, but it's, it may not give you... For lots of reasons, it may not give you the quick results you're looking for. If you-- For people with ADHD, what I like to recommend, and anybody who is kind of really results-oriented and, and curious and, and kinda, uh, data-driven and, um, uh, is getting a continuous glucose monitor. So a continuous glucose monitor, um, available here in the UK and many other places in the world without a prescription, you can buy them over the counter. It's a painless patch that you put on your arm. You can even just a couple of weeks, a single patch, sorry, [chuckles] a single patch less, um, you know, about, about a couple of weeks. And, um, and even that alone is enough to give you a tremendous amount of data about how your glucose levels are responding to your, the, the dietary choices that you're making. So let's say, and I do this all the time. So let's say somebody comes in like, "I don't really need to change my diet. I already eat a healthy diet. You know, I'm, I'm, I, I'm doing just fine. Uh, diet's not the problem. That's not why I can't go-- I can't concentrate. Um, do you really think I need to, you know, change the quantity or quality of carbohydrates in my diet?" I say, "Well, you know, I don't know. Let's find out." And wear a continuous glucose monitor for two weeks. And whether they share their results with me or not doesn't matter because I have yet to work with somebody who wears a continuous glucose monitor and doesn't change their diet. Because you can see right in front of your very eyes how your food choices, your exercise patterns, your sleep patterns, your stress levels, all kinds of other things affect your glucose levels essentially in real time, even overnight. So it's kind of monitoring your glucose twenty-four/seven. And a lot of people think, "Oh, that bowl of oi- oatmeal topped with blueberries in the morning that's supposed to be so good for my brain, whoa, I didn't know that it was gonna spike my glucose to one hundred and eighty milligrams per deciliter." I have no idea what that is in UK units. [chuckles] Um, but, uh- [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
I'm not sure. But I guess that kind of gamifies it too, or, or makes it, it, it brings the results forward 'cause you can see the effects significantly faster than you probably could feel them.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Oh, yeah. And, and some of the result, some of-- So two things about that. One is it, it does g- people love them 'cause they are fascinating. You know, peop- most people are curious and they wanna know what's going on. It gives you a window into your body that is, that we didn't use to have. And these are relatively new devices, and people love them. So, um, [lip smack] uh, they're, they're just cool. So you get to see what's going on, and then you get to do little experiments, uh, to see if you can make it different. And it, it's very empowering and, and, and really fun. So there's that piece. Um, and, uh, and, and you know, the, the other thing is that [lip smack] I think it's really, it's really interesting for people to experiment with, um, to, to understand how much control they have over how they feel. Because you were saying, "Well, what about the-- How, how, how quickly can you see the results?" Well, the interesting thing about the way this glucose rollercoaster works is you may not see the-- you may not feel the effects of a glucose spike while it's happening. You might not feel it until hours later, because a lot of what's really noticeable about that is the crash that happens four to five hours later. And that's when there's this great experiment that I put in the book, um, uh, where they gave healthy teenage boys, they divided them into two groups, and s- uh, half of them got a sugar-sweetened cola, and the other half got a, a, a cola that didn't have any sugar in it. 'Cause actually, they used glucose. They didn't even use regular sugar, just glucose. And so glucose-sweetened cola and an unsweetened cola. And the, these were healthy teenage boys, and four to five hours after drinking the sh- the, the glucose-sweetened cola, their adrenaline levels spiked to four to five times their baseline, whereas they stayed flat in the other group. And so, you know, a lot of parents who don't think sugar matters in their kids' diets because they don't see an immediate problem, they might not connect, you know, what the child ate or drank four or five hours earlier to how they're behaving then. 'Cause these kids in this study, some of them were having real physical symptoms that, you know, uh, panicking, sweating, and feeling irritable, shaky, right? And so, you know, looking like hypoglycemia, that's all from those, that stress hormone reaction that's happening. So it's not a subtle effect and, um, and so people can, can learn their own rhythms and their own patterns and, and how to smooth them out, and they can see how much better they feel. You can change these patterns within two to three days. I mean, it's really quick. So, I mean, there's-- Getting those glucose levels low and stable is a really powerful metabolic, an intervention and, and people feel a lot better when they step off that rollercoaster.
- APAlex Partridge
What about superfoods? How does that come into the conversation? Uh, and particularly for the traits that we associate with ADHD, what superfoods might benefit ADHD?
- 27:46 – 28:47
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- APAlex Partridge
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- 28:47 – 35:09
The truth about ADHD and superfoods
- APAlex Partridge
the episode. What superfoods might benefit ADHD?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
So here's a hot take. [chuckles] There's no such thing as a brain superfood. Full stop. The terms-- There's a whole chapter about this in my book, the, about the antioxidant, the superfoods and the antioxidant myth. And, and this is a very, very important thing for people to, to, um, to take away. Because we are told all the time that there are certain foods that the-- that to fight the inflammation and oxidative stress that is causing our bodies and brains so much grief, we're always told, "You have to fight inflammation with these certain foods. You have to fight oxidative stress with these antioxidant-rich foods," these colorful, usually plant superfoods. Um, but th-that's not the way it works. There's no evidence that that strategy works, and, uh, there is no food you can add to your diet that is going to help you fight inflammation and oxidative stress. The-- It's an, it's a wonderful-- It's a very appealing concept because who-- you know, adding things to the diet is very easy, and, uh, you can do it quickly and easily. It feels empowering. It feels positive. I'm gonna do this thing for myself. But, um, but really the power, the real power in fighting inflammation and oxidative stress is in subtraction. It's in subtracting the foods that are causing the inflammation and oxidative stress in the first place. That's where you have real power. And so, because as we were talking about before-The refined carbohydrates, for example, these are powerful promoters of inflammation and oxidative stress. Alcohol is a powerful promoter of oxidative stress. Smoking is a powerful promoter of oxidative stress. So these are just a few examples of lifestyle changes that people can make, really important lifestyle changes people can make, that can dramatically reduce the amount of inflammation and oxidative stress affecting all of their cells, not just in the brain. And so, and, and this is, this is extremely important because it's not just about ADHD, it's about all mental health conditions and all physical health conditions. These are really the main drivers of deterioration of the, of the body and mind. And so if you can, if you can, if you can remove, you can kind of stop fueling that fire, you feel so much better and, and protect yourself against so many of the chronic diseases that we all think are part of just the normal aging process, but which are not. I mean, we really can expect, we should expect so much more of our brains and our bodies, and if you feed your brain right, you can expect more from it.
- APAlex Partridge
Are there any more day-to-day foods that might be flying under the radar that people might be eating quite often and not knowing that they're actually building up their stress?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Yes. So, so, um, there are, um, many people are under the impression because they've been given this impression by prestigious, influential, um, academic and other nutrition, uh, uh, uh, information sources that whole grains are good for you. And, uh, [laughs] whole grains are extremely poor in nutrients, extremely high in anti-nutrients, so they don't-- Th- th- it's not that they just don't give you almost anything that you need. They, they, they also actively interfere with your ability to obtain nutrients, not only from the grains themselves, but from other foods you eat along with the grains. So, and, and legumes are a close second. The, the-- we are told that, that we should be basing our diets on these foods, whole grains and legumes, things like beans and peas and lentils, which are very low in nutrients, very high in anti-nutrients, really rich in natural plant defensive toxins, which can be really irritating to the gut lining and many other systems in the body. And, and they're, they're mostly starch and therefore, for the majority of us who now have something called insulin resistance, which is a very common metabolic disorder, um, which can lead to glucose levels running too high between meals or something called pre-diabetes and then eventually even type two diabetes in many cases. These metabolic problems that are rooted in insulin resistance, um, insulin resistance is caused by high insulin levels. And if you're eating a diet that's too high in carbohydrate for your personal metabolism, which most of us are now doing, your insulin levels will run too high too often, and you will develop insulin resistance. Grains and legumes are mostly starch and very-- for very little nutritional value. And so, um, these are the whole foods that I recommend everybody avoids if they have that luxury. Um, there are some people who should not avoid these foods. People who can't afford other foods should not avoid these foods. But also people who choose vegan diets should not avoid legumes because it'll be very difficult to obtain the essential amino acids, the proteins that you need if you're not including some of these foods in the diet. But for everyone else, avoiding these foods that we are told to base our diets on is, I think, a very, very important principle.
- APAlex Partridge
What about fad diets? Because I feel like people with ADHD can be quite impulsive. We can get very excited about things in the short term, and I feel like that can make us quite vulnerable to marketing towards fad diets. They're claimed to be for improving focus, mood, executive function. If I'm scrolling Instagram, like I will often see an advert for a new fad diet. But I always wonder,
- 35:09 – 42:19
Common fad diets that are actually harmful
- APAlex Partridge
and this is-- I'm curious to ask you, like are there any common fad diets that claim to boost brain health, but actually might be harmful?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Well, yes and no. So most of the fad diets that you'll see come across, you know, come across your feed, um, will have some real benefits to them, uh, because just about any change you make to the standard Western diet is gonna be an improvement. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
So, [laughs] um, and so there, there are benefits to whole foods plant-based diets. There are benefits to the Mediterranean diet. There are benefits to lower fat diets. There are benefits to low carbohydrate diets. There are benefits to, um, so- something called the DASH diet, which is kind of a low sodium, low fat diet. All of these special diets have benefits over the typical junky diet that most of us are eating. So, um, the problem is most of them just don't do enough. They don't, they haven't-- they don't make the changes. They don't pull the most powerful levers you have available to you. And this is, you know-- And so this is where really the metabolic piece comes into play. So all of those diets that we just kind of talked about-These diets, um, the way they're constructed in research trials, it, is they're almost always much healthier diets, whether they're lower in fat or higher in fat or, um, lower in cholesterol or, uh, plant-based, whatever they might be. Um, they're almost always higher quality diets, meaning they're, they're more whole foods patterns, less refined foods, less factory foods, less, less, um, less junk food, and that's very good. You want that. But most of these diets pay little to no attention to metabolic health. They pay little to no attention to glucose and insulin regulation, and I know I sound like a broken record, [chuckles] but this is really a very, very importantly critical, fundamental piece of the puzzle that most people are not taking advantage of. It's-- And, and again, within days to weeks, if you can get control over those glucose and insulin levels, you could potentially experience profound life-changing benefits to your mental health, um, that other dietary changes simply aren't capable of. So, you know, a lot of people, a lot of people understand that it kinda makes intuitive sense, right? Well, of course, what we eat matters to the brain. I mean, we never used to actually think about it much, but people are thinking about that now. Uh, people do talk about, you know, eating for brain health. But, you know, most of the recommendations you hear, like eating more superfoods or, um, uh, you know, eating less junk food, eating more superfoods, eating more colorful, a, a more diverse diet, lots of fruits and rainbows of fruits and vegetables, more whole grains, more legumes, less red meat, less saturated fat. These are the things you hear all the time. More fiber. You hear these things all the time. N- And some of tho- [chuckles] some of those have some merit, others don't. Uh, it could be a longer conversation. But, but none of those principles is paying any attention to glucose and insulin levels and how the brain generates energy. And so-- And, and, and whether or not, whether or not these dietary patterns are, are truly reducing inflammation, oxidative stress in the brain. So that's where the power is. So all these fad diets are coming out, saying, yes, they do have merits, but you're leaving an awful lot on the table if you don't explore diets that do a better job of getting your glucose and insulin levels in control. So these are lower carbohydrate diets. These are, these are paleo diets that exclude... So there are three dietary patterns I, I lay out for people in the book to explore. One is a, um, kind of a moderate carbohydrate paleo diet. It's got about ninety grams of carbohydrate per day, which is at least three times less than most people are eating now. So it gets those glucose levels down into a healthier range without going into the ketogenic, uh, range. So which, which, which people can definitely benefit from in many cases, but, but just starting by practicing that whole foods pattern, um, that allows you to have a serving of fruit and starchy vegetable with each meal, so you don't have to remove all the carbohydrate or almost all the carbohydrate from your diet. But you're eating a much more nutritious, much healthier and safer diet than, um, than most people are eating right now. That's well worth exploring. And then, and then the next level is exploring a ketogenic version of that same dietary pattern by reducing the total amount of carbohydrate in the diet down so that you're not just getting the glucose levels under control, you're also getting the insulin levels under control, which is the next level of intervention, and that's a very powerful metabolic intervention. So when you do that, when you get glucose levels down low enough and insulin levels down low enough, now you've switched on fat burning. Most people wanna burn more fat, [chuckles] and this is the way to do it. You burn fat, but the, the great thing is even if you're not trying to lose weight, because we think of ketogenic diets as weight loss diets. They can actually be constructed for weight loss, weight gain, or weight maintenance, depending on how you build them. But, um, if, if they were only weight loss diets, those of us who follow ketogenic diets for a long period of time would have disappeared a long time ago. [chuckles] We just would have kept losing weight until there's nothing left of us. So ketogenic diets lower glucose and insulin levels to the fat-burning point, and when fat is burning vigorously enough, the, the liver chops that, the fat into small fragments, ready-to-burn fragments called ketones that circulate in the blood, and these ketones can cross the blood-brain barrier and help energize the brain. And they can bridge any energy gaps there might be from damage to the glucose processing system in the brain, which w- the more we look for evidence of this in various mental health disorders, the more evidence we find. The brain is having trouble burning glucose for energy. And, uh, so ketogenic diets have this unique ability to energize the brain differently and, uh, and, and fight inflammation and fight oxidative stress, um, and, and do-- and, and improve brain healing, allow the brain to heal. So it's a completely different state of mind that I, that I really want more people to experience for themselves to see what might be possible for them.
- 42:19 – 46:14
The best diet for ADHD
- APAlex Partridge
So in your opinion, what do you think the best diet is for someone with ADHD? Someone who is-- perhaps suffers from brain fog, poor concentration, time management, all of those executive functioning challenges that we associate with ADHD. What diet would you point someone like that towards?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
It's, uh, gonna be a frustrating answer, but it depends. It's gonna... It, it has to be personalized. For some people, dietary changes for ADHD are about food sensitivities. In fact, some of the best studies that have been conducted so far in the field, uh, were done several decades ago. There were numerous studies, especially here in Europe, of, uh, children with, uh, moderate to severe ADHD, um, and the thinking behind these experiments were, well, maybe food sensitivities are, are causing some ADHD symptoms. So they placed these children on very similar, um, types of diets. These were all ca- what they're called, uh, these were called few foods diets or oligoantigenic diets. These were diets that were low in common food culprits, th- or, or eliminated a lot of the common food culprits, things like wheat and dairy and soy and chocolate and peanuts and thing, things that, you know, uh, researchers believed might cause problems for sensitive kids. So they stripped the diet down to just a handful of foods. These were things like lamb and chicken and, you know, vegetables and fruits and, uh, strangely margarine and apple juice. Uh, th- they were trying to replace the butter 'cause they would-- took out the dairy. Um, and, uh, so these were mostly-- they were very simple, mostly whole foods diets, and the response rate in these kids to these diets, no matter which study you locate, wh-which, which study you look at, which research group you're looking at, um, sixty-two to eighty-two percent of the kids got better, some of them full remission within weeks of changing their diets in this way. These were not low carbohydrate or ketogenic diets. These were mostly whole foods diets where, um, all of the-- most of the problematic, potentially problematic foods had been removed. For some people, that's all it's gonna take, and so especially if you're younger, [clears throat] and you don't have a lot of metabolic damage already, which as we get older, if we keep eating this way, we accumulate a lot of metabolic damage, but kids, kids are pretty resilient. Evolutionarily, we needed to be novelty-seeking in order to find new sor- food sources and not be afraid to try new things, and, and people with ADHD have that in spades, right? We needed people with ADHD traits in the tribe, [chuckles] you know, like, "Go find something new for us to eat." [laughs] You know, "Go explore." Um, and then we needed, you know, people who were, you know, kind of plod-along routine people to keep the-- keep things running at home or in the cave or wherever it's going. You know, we need all kinds of brains. So, but that novelty-seeking thing, the food industry has figured that out. They know that we wanna see a new flavor, a new texture, a new crunch, a new color, a new package, um, and we just can't-- Like, we get cu- Like, "Ooh, what's that? I haven't tried that one yet." [laughs] Um, th- and, and then the ingredients blow past our hormonal stop sign that we can't stop eating this stuff. They don't satisfy us, so we keep buying them. Uh, but they don't have any nutrients in them. They just have the intense flavor and the novelty and the refined carbohydrates that jack up our glucose, that light up our dopamine reward system and say, "More of that."
- APAlex Partridge
With, with the ADHD community, a community that might have lower impulse control and have a pr- propensity to maybe gravitate towards these pleasurable
- 46:14 – 46:46
The link between ADHD and diabetes
- APAlex Partridge
foods, is there a provable link between ADHD and diabetes?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Yes. So, uh, in adults, adults with ADHD are twice as likely, more than twice as likely, to have Type 2 diabetes, severe metabolic dysfunction, essentially end-stage insulin resistance, insulin resistance to the point that your cells, y-your, your insulin level, no matter how high your insulin level goes, it can no longer keep your glucose levels in control.
- 46:46 – 55:12
The best and worst supplements for ADHD
- APAlex Partridge
What about supplements? Because again, going to that impulsivity piece, I feel like people with ADHD are vulnerable to going on that latest health kick. I have a cupboard in my fridge, my partner laughs at me, it's full of supplements that I've bought impulsively thinking that I'm gonna be the healthiest person, but then I've got bored and abandoned them.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Quite a common... But are there any specific supplements that you would say avoid, they're a scam?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Most supplements are not worth the money, um, and th- uh, there are some supplements that can be useful, that may, may help to, to a certain extent. They're not gonna get to the root of the problem, but they could potentially be helpful, but most supplements are not worth the money. Uh, especially supplements, um, uh, that, you know, claim to be antioxidant or an- have antioxidant or anti-inflammatory properties. Um, so, uh, especially what I, I call, uh, plantioxidants, [chuckles] uh, antioxidants that are extracted from plant foods, and it's, it's-- Th- these, these molecules do fight oxidative stress in plants, so they work very well in plants. They don't work very well in the human body. It is extremely difficult for us to absorb these molecules because they're not essential. Our body doesn't need them. So the body wisely doesn't waste any energy trying to absorb them. So we often-- These molecules often have to be altered, um, in order to bypass those safeguards and be absorbed to a small extent into the bloodstream, but then even once they are absorbed, most of these, uh, most of that, uh, uh, uh, molecule is rapidly detoxified and eliminated from the body as, as, just fast as humanly possible because we don't need them. We have our own-built-in antioxidant defense system that works beautifully if we don't overwhelm it. So the brain makes its own antioxidants. There's a pathway in brain cells called the pentose phosphate pathway that builds antioxidant molecules. And so, um, um, whenever we eat, the process of eating-- Oxidative stress is unavoidable. Oxidative stress happens. So we cannot extract energy from food without creating some oxidative stress in the process. It's kinda like collateral damage. Um, and so, uh, so the-- but, but, but the body knows this. Evolution figured this out. Oh, well, if we, if we, if we need to create oxidative stress, if, if we can only get energy out of food by creating oxidative stress, we better be prepared for that oxidative stress because oxidative stress can be dangerous. So we have our own built-in antioxidant defense mole- uh, system to mop up those antioxidants that we are su- we expect to see. But again, evolution was no match for our modern food environment. We're flooding, we're, we're bombarding our system with so much glucose and so much vegetable, by the way, refined fats as well, just as, just as problematic as refined carbohydrates in a lot of ways. So many oxygen free radicals being created that they're just spilling over and terrorizing the village. They're, they're like, they're like little bulls in a china shop, and they're randomly bumping into and damaging everything they encounter. That's oxidative stress, and it, it can cause a lot of damage. And so if you have a normal amount of oxidative stress, um, oxidative stress comes from the foods we eat, it comes from sunlight exposure. There, there are natural sources of oxidative stress that we are-- we have to be able to protect ourselves against. But if you overwhelm those systems, um, with more oxygen-free radals than we can-- oxygen free radicals than we can handle, then you've got excessive oxidative stress, and there's no plant antioxidant in the world that's gonna be any match for that, for that tsunami of oxygen free radicals. You have to stop the problem at the source. And so there are a few, um, supplements which may be useful in helping reduce oxidative stress. Um, one is N-acetylcysteine, and the other, uh, that comes to mind is, um, alpha-lipoic acid. And the reason why I mention those is because those can cross the blood-brain barrier. It's very, very important that whatever supplement you take be able to cross the blood-brain barrier, um, if you're trying to use it to support better brain health. But by and large, sprinkling superfoods and supplements on top of a fundamentally unhealthy diet is not the way to better brain health. You really do have to fundamentally restructure your diet from the ground up in ways that make biological sense, uh, in order to get the benefits that we're talking about. And there are tremendous benefits to be, to be had for many people by following these, these food rules that most people are unaware of. So it's, um, supplements... If you have a, a serious nutrient deficiency, like B12 deficiency, if you choose not to or can't access animal foods, uh, nutritious animal foods, that-- whi- which is where B12 comes from, you're gonna need to take a B12 supplement. That's one example of a supplement that can be very, very useful in, um, especially people who are following plant-based diets, which is a, you know, growing number of people. And so, uh, certain nutrient supplements, depending on your dietary, uh, preferences and also depending on your health, because some people, especially as we get older, may not absorb all nutrients as well as we used to. And so if there's gut damage, gut inflammation, or aging, certain medications, certain health conditions can make supplements really important, uh, essential nutrient supplements. Um, but, uh, but I, I'm very much a food-first psychiatrist and, and we are designed, we are evolved to, um, extract our nutrients from food, not from concentrated extracts and supplements. Um, when you take a supplement, um, it is isolated. It's not in its natural matrix with the other things the body expects to see it with, and it can throw systems out of balance. You can have, you can have too much of a good thing. So it's, it's really important to choose supplements wisely and only when necessary and to, to try them one at a time and really assess how it makes you feel. So many-- I mean, I have people who have come to me [chuckles] taking two to three pages of supplements. This is not at all uncommon anymore. And a lot of people think, well, you know, the more the merrier, which is ki- kind of like an insurance policy, like why not shore everything up? And, but, but the problem is these are, these are very real chemicals with very real effects on the human body, and some of them aren't always positive. And so it's really important, just as with dietary changes, to, if you're going to use supplements, try them one at a time. Really take the time to figure out, okay, how is this affecting me? Is it making a difference? Is it worth my money? Is it making me feel worse? And because you can see that sometimes. Some people do feel worse when they take supplements. And so just, you know, I, I, I would just say, I would just say exercise caution and, um, explore, keep an open mind, curiosity mindset, just as with dietary changes. Um, all of thisis personalized. The supplement that helps you might not help me, um, or, or might make, ma- might make you feel worse. Or... And so I think that's a really important thing to understand about supplements is that they can have benefits in some cases. But mostly, they are a way for supplement manufacturers
- 55:12 – 59:23
ADHD and creatine
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
to make money.
- APAlex Partridge
What about creatine? Because there's a lot of s- content on social media at the moment showcasing the benefits that link creatine to improved ADHD traits, mental clarity. Are there a- any actual credible studies that show creatine improves mental clarity?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
So I've started looking into this because it has been such a hot topic. I haven't finished researching it, so I don't want to... I, I, I don't have enough information to give you the, the kind of answer I'd like to give you about that specific question, but what I can tell you is, yes, it does look like there's some signal there. It does look like creatine can be useful. Um, but what I was curious to know, [laughs] this is what I always wanna know, okay well, what is this supplement, what problem is this supplement trying to solve? What's the root cause of the problem that this supplement is trying to solve? This supplement helps the body, helps cells regenerate ATP. ATP is the m- the, the currency of energy in the body. So when, when, when we are extracting energy from food, we store it in little packets called ATP. These ready to use, instant use packets of energy. We can break them open quickly. Mmm, tons and tons of them, uh, are being used constantly, um, uh, by every cell in the body. So, uh, so they're, they're ready to use packets of energy. The reason why creatine may be helpful for people with ADHD is that people with ADHD may be experiencing brain energy deficits. ATP is energy. If you don't have enough ATP, you, you don't have enough energy, the brain will start to run low on power, and that is the problem that we see across a wide variety of mental health conditions. We see this issue called, the fancy word for it is [laughs] cerebral glucose hypometabolism, which is just a fancy way of saying sluggish brain glucose processing. We are having trouble turning glucose into energy, into ATP. What's the solution? The root cause solution? Okay, we need to be able to... We need an alternative fuel source, a supplemental fuel source that the brain can easily turn into ATP, no supplementation required. Um, and that is ketones. We can generate our own ketones, our own internal ketone supplement, if you will, energy supplement. So the... Again, you get the glucose and insulin levels down enough, get into ketosis, the, the body s- starts to turn some of that fat into ketones. Ketones cross the blood-brain barrier, supplement, bridge any brain energy gaps. Bring those cells that may have been struggling, sputtering along with not quite enough energy, not quite enough ATP. Even though you're giving them plenty of glucose, they, they, they're really not equipped anymore to utilize it to full capacity. You, you supplement those cells with ketones and even people with very severe metabolic damage, even people with type 2 diabetes, which is end-stage insulin resistance, even people with Alzheimer's disease, which is now called type 3 diabetes because it's, uh, because insulin resistance is a key causal factor in most cases of Alzheimer's disease, the ketones will cross the blood-brain barrier easily, and cells can use them for energy. Uh, even if the brain has lost a lot of its ability to use glucose for energy, it will not have lost its ability to use ketones for energy. So this is, um, this is the, um, internal supplement that can replenish your brain's ATP supply, no s- um, uh, no creatine required.
- APAlex Partridge
Truly fascinating, Georgia.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Thank you so much. And speaking of the keto diet, again, I think that probably is a nice transition into what is slowly turning into my favorite part of the show,
- 59:23 – 1:12:15
Georgia’s ADHD item
- APAlex Partridge
which is your ADHD item reveal-
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Ah. Please
- APAlex Partridge
... which has been patiently waiting underneath that cloth-
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
I'm on the edge of my seat
- APAlex Partridge
... this whole time. I know. [laughs]
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Every week, I ask my guest to bring in an item that represents ADHD, and I'm going to reveal yours now. So [laughs] that's a little bit... Might need to explain what that is. I'll pass it to you, Georgia.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Please. This is a Keto-Mojo ketone meter. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
So explain what that does.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
What we have here, ladies and gentlemen, [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. [laughs]
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
So this is the actual ketone meter-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
... which will display, um, uh, uh, your ketone, your blood ketone level here. Um, on the top, it has a little, uh, insert for this ketone strip. Uh, to measure ketones and get yourself into ketosis, figure out how to eat and how to live, what lifestyle changes you need to make to get into ketosis and generate good, consistent ketone levels, um, can take a few weeks to maybe even two to three months to really get the hang of it. But once you have figured out how to do that, um, then you don't need to test as often. You might just spot check. Um, but in the beginning, it's very, very useful to be able to measure. And so I use this in my clinical work all the time. I... This is my ketone meter, so I, [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
I use it every day. I measure my ketones every day. Um, and it's a really wonderful way to do a metabolic reality check for myself every morning, see where I'm at. And, uh, it helps me understand how to plan the rest of my day. So my ketones are lower than I want them to be, then I understand, okay, I need to eat more carefully today, eat less, exercise more. [laughs] And, uh, um, and, and, uh-Uh, and then if my ketones are where I want them to be, then I know it's gonna be a good day. Um, my productivity's gonna be better, my energy's gonna be, and my mood's gonna be better. My appetite's gonna be under much better control. Um, and so this, this is really the most powerful tool I have available to me for my own personal mental and physical health, and for that of my patients as well. So, um, so this doesn't represent ADHD, um, like your amazing disco ball, which I'm very jealous of. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Um, this represents hope for ADHD, and the research that I'm getting involved in, um, uh, is, uh, at, at Oxford University and, and other places as well, uh, potentially, um, we're applying for some grants. Um, we're gonna be exploring the, uh, the effect of ketogenic diets in adults with ADHD. Uh, the Oxford study in particular is studying the, uh, effect of ketogenic diet in, uh, adults with ADHD and depression who have both ADHD and depression. And so this is very exciting, kind of cutting edge research. Um, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of potential here. And the beautiful thing about the, the k- k- ketogenic diet is that it doesn't have to be an either or intervention. Uh, you can use the ketogenic diet in combination with other lifestyle strategies, exercise, um, uh, dietary changes like whole foods diets, et cetera, um, uh, even medication. Uh, for, for those who, who use medication, um, a lot of my folks, uh, who are on a ketogenic diet, um, uh, find that they either need less or sometimes even no, uh, medication to, uh, uh, to manage their ADHD symptoms when they're in ketosis. And so I even have some patients who only take their stimulant medication when they're not in ketosis. Uh, so it's a... The beautiful thing about the, the way the ketogenic diet works for people with ADHD in my clinical work is that, you know, stimulants, they can be very helpful for a lot of people, but there can be downsides. Sometimes you can't access them, [laughs] sometimes you can't afford them, um, and sometimes they give you side effects, like they might make you jittery or anxious or irritable or tense. Um, they can wear off and they can cause a crash. Th- they can cause a lot of anxiety. Uh, they can kill your appetite, and in kids it can even lead to some problems eating enough food. So they, like any medication, a lot of side effects. So some people get benefits, but they also get jitters and that sort of thing. So it's not what you get with a ketogenic diet is calm, focused energy. Calm, focused energy, and you can't get that with a medication. So, um, it's got a lot of potential. And, you know, I think one of the interesting things about being a psychiatrist, I'm a general adult psychiatrist and so-- and I've been practicing for more than twenty-five years, and I, I've practiced in ADHD specialty clinics, I've practiced in college mental health for many years. So college mental health was my specialty. I saw lots and lots of students come through who, um, either really did have ADHD or claimed they did [laughs] and were looking for medication. Um, I have a lot of experience with ADHD and, uh, but being a general adult psychiatrist, what I can also tell you, which will be no surprise to you, is that most people, most mental health conditions come with some attention problem. Depression makes it harder to concentrate and pay attention, get things done. Anxiety, same story. Substance abuse, same story. Schizophrenia, same story. Bipolar disorder, same story. Cognitive decline. All of these conditions impair our ability. Attention requires the whole brain to be functioning well. Concentrating, getting executive function is a higher order human skill and, and it requires, it requires that everything be working properly. And so it doesn't take much to disrupt that attention network. So, um, and this is why I can tell you that, uh, yes, some of my patients have ADHD, but most of my patients have attention dysregulation. And, and the ketogenic diet, the, the number one most predictable experience that people who try a ketogenic diet have, that the phrase that you hear most often is mental clarity. Often within just a few days, people feel like, you know, their brain is back online. Because really what the ketogenic diet does is it fundamentally changes the brain's operating system, and it's a shift that is very noticeable in most people and is, for many people, a state of mind they haven't experienced before and didn't know that they could access. So it's not an intervention that you should go home and start today without learning more about it [laughs] because it is a powerful metabolic intervention. If you're taking medication, if you have a history of any serious mental health symptoms, um, if you're under care for any kind of medical condition, especially if you take medicines for diabetes or high blood pressure, heart disease, you can't just start a ketogenic diet without medical supervision because it is so good at lowering glucose levels and l- and in many cases even lowering blood pressure, that it can be dangerous if the medications aren't adjusted carefully. And there is a transition phase in the very beginning, an adapt-- it's called keto adaptation, as the brain is shifting gears from mostly glucose-based energy to mostly fat-based energy.Which is a good change to happen. It can be uncomfortable as the body's shifting gears, and actually people can feel worse before they feel better. So there's a lot more to learn about it, which I've, I've put in the book, um, to help people understand, um, the, the risks and benefits. Um, so don't impulsively try this at home [laughs] before, before you learn more and get excited. If you're exci- as excited about it as I am, um, please do your homework first. Um, but, uh, it's really one of these tools, uh, like I said, this, this, you know, my item doesn't represent ADHD, it represents hope for ADHD, like untapped potential. And like that's the thing about A- one of the many, many things about ADHD is there's so much... So many people with ADHD are not able to reach their full potential, and they don't even know what's standing in the way. And I am not saying that this, that this intervention is gonna cure everybody's ADHD. But what I am saying is you don't know what's possible for yourself until you try. And, um, and I really wanna give people that hope.
- APAlex Partridge
Do you think it's a bit of an injustice that many psychiatrists, many doctors, when they've diagnosed someone with ADHD, the first course of treatment that they will recommend is ADHD medication? Do you think they should first suggest going on a keto diet before considering medication?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Well, yes and no. So we have no clinical trials yet for, um, for, uh, ketogenic diets in ADHD. So I can understand why, um, this idea is not current standard of care in, in mental health practice. What I do wish is that all mental he- that my dream, my tiny little dream for the world, [laughs] I really strongly believe that every person with a mental health condition, whether it's ADHD or anything else, every person with a mental health condition deserves a metabolic evaluation. It's very simple to do. People can even do it at home. I can tell you how to do it right now. [laughs] Everybody deserves to know where they stand on the insulin resistance spectrum, because if there's insulin resistance in the body, which is what you'd be measuring for, there's very likely also insulin resistance in the brain, which means that the brain is not fully energized, and therefore there's tremendous potential in these simple dietary changes to unlock that capacity. So I do wish that every mental health provider had a basic understanding of the powerful relationship between brain metabolism and mental health. I, I, I developed a, a, a continuing education course for clinicians of all backgrounds in ketogenic diets for mental health more than five years ago, the first one, because I wanted clinicians around the world to be able to understand this relationship, what the science tells us, how to evaluate people, and what kinds of conversations you can have that can inspire change and hope, um, and to see, you know, really, to see what's possible for people. So it's, it's very simple and, you know, mental health care providers are... We're trained to talk about feelings, not data, but there are some, a few key pieces of really easy, easily accessible data that can give you a wealth of information about what's going on inside your own cells, and you can change those num- you can change those numbers within days to weeks. You can bring your glucose and insulin levels down within days to weeks and, and, uh, and really again, sort of fundamentally change your brain's operating system. So I, this is why I believe so strongly in this exciting field of metabolic psychiatry and, you know, why I, um, why I speak about it and write about it and talk about it and why I'm so glad you invited me on because this is... I think people with ADHD may not have heard of this intervention because we don't have the studies yet. But you don't need to wait for the studies. You really don't need to wait for the studies to be able to access the benefits. This is a very low risk, very high potential benefit intervention. We have more than a hundred years of experience with ketogenic diets and brain health. These are safe, low risk, very high potential benefit interventions that can help people within days to weeks.
- APAlex Partridge
Fascinating, Georgia, and we'll have to have you back too after the Oxford study results have come in as well.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
I would love to come back
- 1:12:15 – 1:20:11
The ADHD agony aunt
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
and talk about that. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
I wanna move on finally to the ADHD agony aunt section.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Which is this washing machine over my right shoulder. When familiar viewers and listeners of the show will know that it's the washing machine of woes because my item is a washing machine, uh, because it represents memory loss, because I always leave my clothes in the machine after the cycle's finished. And I do ask all my guests, do you leave your, do you leave your clothes in the machine after the cycle's finished?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
I am fortunate enough and, uh, embarrassed to say that I don't do my own laundry. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
My, my partner does my laundry. Uh, um, and the reason for that is I, I have, uh, uh, some degree of ADHD myself.
- APAlex Partridge
Right.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
It runs in my family, and I had a devil of a time doing my laundry and keeping my clothes clean. Um, I hate doing laundry.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
I procrastinate about doing it. I even have-- I looked [laughs] I stumbled across an old, um, diary from when I was in middle school, um, a, a while back, and [laughs] there's one page that says, "I have to wake up an hour early tomorrow morning to look for my basketball uniform."
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
[laughs] So I can't be trusted with laundry. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs] Very relatable. You've got your partner to help you. I've got the Tiimo app-
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Ah. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... which helps me, uh, remember the laundry. But yeah, often still it is the, the smell of damp [laughs] coming from the laundry room that reminds me.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Um, this week, Georgia, somebody has written in to the Washing Machine of Woes and asked-
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Aw
- APAlex Partridge
... I have ADHD, and I've really struggled with binge eating-
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... my whole life. I'm a bit of a yo-yo dieter. Does this stem from ADHD, and how can I control my yo-yoing diet?
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Oh, I lo- did, did the person sign it?
- APAlex Partridge
No.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
No.
- APAlex Partridge
Anonymous.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Oh, okay. Um, so anonymous shy person, I'm, I'm, I'm really, uh, I love your question because this is exactly what I'm gonna be talking about at the Food Addiction Conference, uh, uh, two days from now in London, is this powerful connection between loss of appetite control and food choices. So th- so binge eating is extremely common, becoming more and more common all the time. And so, uh, th- what's dri- w- so what's driving binge eating isn't necessarily a lack of control. It, it, I mean, it is a lack of control, but, but why? So we wanna go deeper. Like I'm a psychiatrist, let's go deeper, right? So okay, so you eat too much sometimes. Sometimes you feel completely out of control of your eating, and you, and you've tried multiple times to try to get this under control. Now, if this shy person were sitting here, I'd wanna ask a lot of questions. So what have you tried in the past to try to get this binge eating under control? And a lot of people say, "Well, you know, I've tried, you know, I've tried counting calories, I've tried portion control, I've tried avoiding certain foods, and, um, but, you know, it's just that it always seems to come back, especially if I'm under stress." So, um, there are, there are several things that trigger that, that vicious cycle of overeating. And remember we were talking before about the, there are two kinds of evolutionary, there are two, evolutionarily there are two kinds of hunger that are, that are built-in, hardwired. So one is the hormetic hunger, which is, which is we have to eat for nutrients and energy, and the other is hedonic hunger, is we like to eat things that are pleasurable, and we wanna seek out more and more of those things. There's a third type, too, we're gonna talk about in a second, which is emotional hunger, which is driven by stress. So, so for people with binge eating, they're much more likely to have food addiction. There's a tremendous overlap between these two diagnostic categories. And so, um, and this has been shown in a number of research studies. So people with binge eating score much higher on, uh, scales of food addiction. And so, uh, the types of foods that people tend to overeat are very telling. So the other thing I'd wanna ask this shy person is, what kinds of foods tend to trigger you? What kinds of foods do you feel like you are, uh, that you easily lose control over? They're almost always foods that contain refined carbohydrates. Not necessarily always sugar, not necessarily always sweet. Some people are savory overeaters. Macaroni and cheese, pizza, uh, [laughs] um, and, and some people are sweet. Uh, ice cream and cookies and so forth. But it's, it's all the same. It's all refined carbohydrates. Sugar, flour, cereals, fruit juices, et cetera. Um, so, so the first thing is understanding what triggers the overeating. And again, it's that rollercoaster. So you get this, the, the glucose spike, the insulin spike, then you get the crash, then you get the stress hormones. So y- and, and this triggers this vicious cycle of overeating because the third type of hunger is emotional hunger, stress-driven hunger. You get this rise in cortisol. So you get the glucose spike, the insulin spike, the glucose comes down, the adrenaline and cortisol pour in to keep the glucose from bottoming out, and now what happens? You've got this flood of stress hormones in your body. What do stress hormones want you to do? They think you're in a stressful situation. They think you need fast energy. The fastest energy available to the body is glucose. Glucose burns faster than fat and ketones. So what does it do? It tells your liver to pour out more glucose into the bloodstream, even if you've just had [laughs] something sweet. And it makes you seek out foods that are high in glucose because it thinks you need fast energy. And this is all artificially driven by eating the wrong foods. If you eat foods that can't spike your glucose and that are nourishing, you will not, you will not trigger, over trigger the hedonic pathway, and you will not trigger the stress pathway. Most people know that when they're-- all diets are hard to stick to, but most people know that the time their diet is in the most trouble is when they're under stress. And that's not your fault. Binge eating isn't your fault. [laughs] Stress eating isn't your fault. If you understand how it works, you can actually take control of it, and you can actually, you, you need so much less willpower when your hormones are under-- when you are stable from within. And, and the, it's again another plug for there's a wonderful study conducted byDr Jen Unwin, who is the organizer of this International Food Addiction Conference that's taking place in London in a couple of days, this is the second year of it, um, and, uh, she, uh, conducted a study that's now one year out. They put one year data on this, where, um, low carbohydrate whole foods diets coupled with education and support, a very simple online program, this was conducted, uh, um, in more than one country, um, uh, brought tremendous relief from food addiction. Um, I believe the figure is two-thirds of people still in remission a year out. So there's tremendous hope for this shy person, whoever she or he is. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs] That's fascinating, Georgia, and thank you so much. On behalf of the shy-
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... uh, anonymous u- uh, listener, thank you so much.
- 1:20:11 – 1:21:17
3 rules to live by
- APAlex Partridge
To finish with, I wanna deliver you a letter that was written by the previous guest where they wrote their three rules to live by.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Yes, I've been looking forward to this.
- APAlex Partridge
I'll lean over Georgia and pass you the letter.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Thank you, Alex.
- APAlex Partridge
If you could kindly open it and read the three rules.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
To the next guest. ADHD Chatter.
- APAlex Partridge
You're in the right place. [laughs]
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Oh. [laughs] Three rules to live by. Self-care is non-negotiable. Mm, I like that. Be kind to yourself. Great. If in doubt, slow down and breathe. [sighs]
- APAlex Partridge
Three very punchy and good rules, I think.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Thank you. Another shy person.
- APAlex Partridge
Yes. [laughs]
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Sometimes less is more.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Not signed. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Georgia, once again, thank you so, so much on behalf of everyone who's grappling to understand their brains and figuring out how simple dietary changes can make a big difference to their brain. Thank you so much.
- GEDr. Georgia Ede
Thank you very much for inviting me, and it was really, really nice that you've had me on, and it's been really nice meeting you. [laughs] [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 1:21:18
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