2 Vital Lessons From A Late Diagnosed ADHD Woman - Dez Rock

Dez Rock 0:00 There's a awful and painful memory that I have to live with, and that is when I found out my daughter had autism, and, um, and I instilled shame into her unwittingly, and I deeply regret that.

Alex Partridge 0:16 Dez Rock, powerhouse CEO, is back- To talk about her biggest struggles yet. What were the, the biggest pain points when you look back on your life that you wish you had known?

Dez Rock 0:26 Friendships and relationships. I didn't realize I was making so many people uncomfortable as I was, and I don't like that. That was never my intention. My intention was to build a safe space for people. You could tell me anything, but the person across from you may not feel that.

Alex Partridge 0:39 Were you proud to be different even before your diagnosis?

Dez Rock 0:42 Mm, no. I was steeped in shame. I wanted nothing more than to fit in and be like everybody else. I wasted a good amount of time, Alex, trying to be liked.

Alex Partridge 0:54 What do you think the costs are of not undoing that?

Dez Rock 0:57 [sighs] [gentle music]

Alex Partridge 1:05 This episode is dedicated to anyone who has wet laundry in their machine. I know you've probably heard this a million times on other podcasts, but following or subscribing really helps the show, and the more followers we get, the more likely it is that I'm able to book new, exciting, and insightful guests for the show. So if you subscribe, I will continue to keep to my word and promise to never let this podcast be sponsored

Alex Partridge 1:27 by Hul. Dez, thank you so much for coming back. Last time we spoke a lot about small talk, and-

Dez Rock 1:34 Right

Alex Partridge 1:34 ... um, what do you think it is about ADHD that makes you go straight to the, the childhood trauma when you meet someone new?

Dez Rock 1:42 Well, I try not to go straight for the childhood trauma, although I've been known to. Um, I think it's more of a case of I prefer integrity and honesty and, um, yeah. So I, I prefer real conversations than what we label as small talk, which is about the weather and about, you know, all the rest of it. And so I, you know, I tend to bond over that because I think that there's, um, vulnerability and honesty in that. And so I look to connect with people on that level because it's honest. It's an honest conversation. It's a more real conversation.

Alex Partridge 2:18 If you look back throughout your whole life, can you see yourself being drawn to neuro-divergent people?

Dez Rock 2:21 Oh, God, yeah, and I think I have lost friends because I have dragged neuro-beige people into honest conversations, and they don't like it. I don't know if you've realized. [laughs] They don't like it. They'll do anything to avoid, you know, uh, the hard questions.

Alex Partridge 2:39 Mm.

Dez Rock 2:39 They'd rather stay in that... And I understand. I've learned to understand that that's what they, uh, prefer, but, um, gosh, that was, you know, pr- that's the difference between pre-diagnosis and post-diagnosis, is that you can see things a lot more clearly now.

Alex Partridge 2:54 What is it, do you think, it, it is about small talk that you find... 'Cause I'm the same. So not excruciatingly painful, but just so unstimulating.

Dez Rock 3:04 Mm, that's exactly why. It's unstimulating. And so we look to find for... And you and I've done this. We've connected on something, and it's just you, you, you know when you feel it with another, a diverse person because it's almost like that you're on the same wavelength, and it buzzes, you know? It's like woo, and it's, it, it feels like a hum, and you're like, "That's my person. I've found my people. This is my tribe." When you're doing small talk, you don't get that, and you know, we're always after the next dopamine hit, and so there's a lack of dopamine hit, which is why we bail out. Like, I think five... I don't know what your cap is, but five, 10, 15 minutes of small talk, and I'm looking for the exit, you know?

Alex Partridge 3:40 Mm. Does that ever turn into over-sharing, though?

Dez Rock 3:43 Right. So I will overcom- compensate... Because what I... And I'm more aware of it now. But when I wasn't aware of it, I would small talk, small talk, small talk. This is boring. Stimu- This is not necessarily what's going through my mind, uh, consciously, but let's say subconsciously. This is boring. I will now ask some deep-diving questions. Oh, I like these answers. I like where this is going. And I'll share because when I share and show vulnerability, they tend to share and show vulnerability. Now I'm interested. Now I'm interested, and now this is a... And it'll also say, "Oh, now this is a real conversation."

Alex Partridge 4:17 Mm.

Dez Rock 4:17 "This is a more authentic conversation." And I'll ding, ding, ding. Like, the neurons fire up, and the, uh, uh, everything, the, you know, the lights light up, and I'm interested. That's what's going through my mind. Um-

Alex Partridge 4:29 Is it, like, fast-paced, or can you handle slow talkers as well?

Dez Rock 4:32 So I've now had to learn the art of, just like we ask people who are neuro-beige to, uh, understand us, I've now had to understand them and to say that what I enjoy doesn't necessarily bring them peace and joy [laughs] and comfort or put them in a good place. So when I'm around, uh, um, people who are, you know, not as neuro-spicy, I do reign it in, and I keep it in a safe spot because I like to make sure that the person in front of me... I didn't realize I was making so many people uncomfortable as I, as I was, and I don't like that. You know, once you're aware of that, that's, that's, that's not w- that was never my intention. My intention was to build a safe space for people to, you know, 'cause you could tell me anything, and it, and I keep it. But the person across from you may not feel that. They might feel like, "I don't like this. They're forcing me to... You know, I don't like... I don't know you." And that's certainly not the, um, what I wanted to evoke. So once I became aware of that, I do, I do pull back now, you know, um, when I'm in situations like that. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 5:40 Do-

Dez Rock 5:40 I'm learning to pull back.

Alex Partridge 5:42 Do you think you're really good now at spotting a neuro-beige person-

Dez Rock 5:45 Yes

Alex Partridge 5:45 ... if you meet someone?

Dez Rock 5:46 Oh, God, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Alex Partridge 5:48 What are the key ta- what are the key signs, do you think?

Dez Rock 5:51 You know, five minutes of talking to somebody, I can usually tell, um, of where they're at. And it may be because, like I said, you know, you kind of like, "How's it going?" You know, and you see if they're willing to dip their toe into d- you know, deeper waters, and if they're not, and if they are. If they've got a special interest that they're sharing, ding, ding, you know? Uh- Um, if they, um, yeah. Yeah, there's tell signs we all know, and if you don't hit any of those, you know you're hitting

Dez Rock 6:16 a beige person.

Alex Partridge 6:17 If you were at dinner with four neuro-beige people, what would that conversation look like?

Dez Rock 6:21 For who? Them or me? [laughs]

Alex Partridge 6:23 [laughs] Maybe for the waiter.

Dez Rock 6:25 For the... [laughs] The waiter would be sitting there watching me roll my eyes back. Um, but um, now, for them, it's gonna be heaven, and most likely they're gonna need a few drinks in them to relax, whereas I wouldn't, right? Um, that's... 'Cause I have been in those situations, and I watch them as they need to ease into... Say, if they wanna have, you know, that sort of stuff, whereas I don't need to ease in. I'm happy to get there, straight there. So what would it look like? It would look like, oh, if I'm being really honest, it would look like me putting a mask on.

Alex Partridge 6:58 What is it within you that makes you feel like you have to put on a mask?

Dez Rock 7:01 Is that... The intention, the simple answer would be to act appropriately in that situation. So if I'm acting appropriately in that situation, it would be like, okay, I don't want anyone upset here. I- certainly not my intention. I don't want anyone to, mm, you know, I don't want to look weird, or I don't want to whatever, so on goes the mask, right? Yeah. And the mask would make sure that I would pull back. The mask would make sure I'm listening more than I'm talking, make sure I'm paying attention, make sure I'm asking the right questions. Oh, definitely, yeah. That's what it would look like. Does it look like that for you?

Alex Partridge 7:35 Oh, definitely.

Dez Rock 7:35 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 7:36 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. My, m- I can tell straight away. Very similar to you by the sound of it. You've sort of got this auto radar-

Dez Rock 7:41 Yes

Alex Partridge 7:42 ... between neuro-typical and neuro-divergent. You, you can always... If you go in and you say something quite personal too early, they, they either accept it and they reciprocate with something-

Dez Rock 7:52 Mm

Alex Partridge 7:52 ... or they look at you as if to say like, "Whoa, that was too much."

Dez Rock 7:55 Yes.

Alex Partridge 7:55 You pick up on that instantly.

Dez Rock 7:56 Yes.

Alex Partridge 7:56 Like, I mean, yeah, the mask suddenly goes on.

Dez Rock 7:59 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 7:59 Like it's a elastic. It just shoots it-

Dez Rock 8:01 It's ki-

Alex Partridge 8:01 ... back onto the face

Dez Rock 8:02 ... kind of like... Well, for me, not that I can imagine this, but for me it's like, um, do you know the bank teller when they press the button and voom-

Alex Partridge 8:09 [laughs]

Dez Rock 8:10 ... up goes the shield?

Alex Partridge 8:11 Yeah.

Dez Rock 8:11 That, that's how fast it is.

Dez Rock 8:13 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 8:14 And if, if you're at the dinner table with four neuro-spicy people, what would that look like?

Dez Rock 8:18 Oh, it's brilliant. It's brilliant because you know you're with your tribe, and you know it doesn't matter what you say. It... Especially the right ones, and I've been in this situation where, before where we'd, we start s- sharing, "Okay, what is your"... And I'll share, and I'll ask you too, "What is your most useful and useless, uh, special interest?" You know? 'Cause we all have the, you know, special interests that took us down the garden path that did nothing for us. It was absolutely useless, right? No use whatso- And then there's ones that are like, that actually came in really handy knowing all of that.

Alex Partridge 8:48 [laughs]

Dez Rock 8:49 And we'd go around the table and then share, and all of these brilliant answers would come forward. You cannot do that with, uh... 'Cause then they'd be, "No, first of all, but what are you talking about with special interests?" Like, but you know what I've... What's your most useless special interest that you've gone down?

Alex Partridge 9:04 God, I've spent so many hours on YouTube looking up space videos. Obsessed with like the, the concept of space, planets, but it hasn't served, it hasn't helped me in any other way-

Dez Rock 9:14 Right

Alex Partridge 9:14 ... other than really probably pro- procrastinating.

Dez Rock 9:17 Right. Right.

Alex Partridge 9:17 And I, and I forget 99% of it-

Dez Rock 9:19 Right

Alex Partridge 9:19 ... of what I watch. What's your special interests or your-

Dez Rock 9:21 The, the useless one?

Alex Partridge 9:22 Yeah.

Dez Rock 9:23 So it was, h- could I... [laughs] It's really useless. It's not come in handy at all. But could I make a cup of espresso [laughs] with no electricity, off grid, right? With... So down that rabbit hole I went, right? Like, what tools would I need, and where... If I'm... Useless. I've never been in a situation where I need to do that. But there it was. But I know how to do it now. So it might-

Alex Partridge 9:50 [laughs]

Dez Rock 9:50 So if you're ever with a astrophysicist and I'm ever in a situation where I need to make an espresso [laughs] off grid, we are good to go.

Alex Partridge 9:57 [laughs]

Dez Rock 9:58 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 9:59 During lockdown, did you, did you find any special interests?

Dez Rock 10:02 Yes, I did. Um, off, uh, well, off-grid camping and, um, was a big one. So I actually... Well, I really wanted to touch the earth, touch some grass and stuff like that. So camping and stuff like that, and camper vans, and I researched and, uh, all I could about that. So I learnt about solar. I learnt about, um, you know, harnessing that. I learnt about everything to do with, uh, RVing that was off grid, and actually built a bus out that was that, and then actually did... So I put that all into use and then did that too, and it was brilliant. Brilliant.

Alex Partridge 10:34 I remember getting obsessed with blue whales and being fascinated with where they mate-

Dez Rock 10:38 Right

Alex Partridge 10:38 ... and going deep down the Google rabbit hole. I can't remember any of it-

Dez Rock 10:41 Oh, I'm fascinated-

Alex Partridge 10:42 ... if you ask me now

Dez Rock 10:42 ... just hearing about that. How do they mate? Is it something-

Alex Partridge 10:44 Deep, like really deep, really deep.

Dez Rock 10:46 Okay.

Alex Partridge 10:46 Um, no one's ever witnessed it 'cause it's so deep underwater.

Dez Rock 10:48 Really?

Alex Partridge 10:49 Yeah. I can't remember the exact depth, but I remember just being fascinated by the whole concept. And then I just got into the deep sea obsession, and I, for, for a couple of days, that's all I was thinking about. But then I moved on to plants, and I bought loads of plant pots for my balcony-

Dez Rock 11:02 Right

Alex Partridge 11:02 ... and filled them with different types of plants.

Dez Rock 11:03 Right.

Alex Partridge 11:03 And that was kind of, a couple of weeks, that was my, my next obsession.

Dez Rock 11:07 Yeah. Yeah. I went down the rabbit hole of, um, becoming the best pit master I could possibly be and making the best smoked brisket, Texas style brisket I could do. My family really, really appreciated that one.

Alex Partridge 11:19 [laughs]

Dez Rock 11:20 They still do. Um, because I went all in, you know? Um, that was a good one for them. Uh, yeah, no, no. So this, that was a useful one, and there's some that weren't. But I don't think there's... Look, we're, I'm joking when I say useless, but to us, because we're getting the dopamine hit and we're finding it really exciting-

Alex Partridge 11:36 Mm

Dez Rock 11:36 ... and all that sort of stuff. And more importantly, we're expanding our knowledge, and that's what we love to do, in an area. Just because we deem it useless doesn't mean it really is. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 11:46 It's such a good point, 'cause it's, it might be useless in the long term, but if it's serving the purpose of entertaining you in the short term-

Dez Rock 11:52 Correct

Alex Partridge 11:53 ... then that is a useful thing to do.

Dez Rock 11:55 Correct. There's nothing... And there's also nothing useless about educating yourself on a topic

Dez Rock 11:59 either.

Alex Partridge 11:59 Mm.

Dez Rock 11:59 Mm.

Alex Partridge 12:00 What does someone have to do to come into Dez's inner circle?

Dez Rock 12:05 Uh, I think that right now it's a lot more difficult than it used to be. Um, I'm very precious about who I spend my moments with. Um- But I'm... Still think that it's relatively easy to have a chance to get to know me. Um, but I think I'm a lot easier to cut people out, you know? Uh, or stop because same thing, my time is precious and I'm a bit limited on, uh, who I wanna spend time with. I was more of a people pleaser back in my... I think most women are, by the way, but I, I, I was more, you know? Um, I certainly am not, and again, that's very typical of women after a certain age too. They're like, "Ah, I don't wanna put up with this anymore. I only wanna be with the people I like."

Alex Partridge 12:55 I've spoken to lots of people on the podcast who struggle to maintain friendships. Do you-

Dez Rock 12:59 That's always been my, uh, downfall as well, yeah.

Alex Partridge 13:03 Why do you think that is?

Dez Rock 13:05 I think as I touched on that before, I think that, uh, the conversations I would constantly lead pe- I would exhaust people from leading them down deep and meaningful conversations whereas that's not... That takes a lo- For me, I live there. I'm happy there. Most people who are not necessarily, uh, you know, who have the diversity don't. So that is exhausting for them, and I've come to understand that, yeah.

Alex Partridge 13:31 You think it's just like an incompatibility between-

Dez Rock 13:33 For sure

Alex Partridge 13:33 ... neuro types?

Dez Rock 13:34 Yeah. 'Cause my intention's always been, like, and that was the un- misunderstanding. It's just like, "But I really like you, and I would do anything for you, and my intention is never to hurt you. My intention was never to bore you. My intention was never to, uh, exhaust you," right? But yet ABC, you know, what your, you know, what the- the- the true fact is is that I have done all of these things and you're exhausted by me, and then you're like, "Oh, I can't deal with this anymore." And that was never my intention to bring those feelings out. So, um, I'm more mindful of that which ties into the question you asked before. What's it take to get around near me? I'm very mindful of, like, if you... I will spare both of us, you know? [laughs] If, uh, if I see the- this- there's an incompatibility, then I'll, yeah, I will say, I'll... I- I'm now better at, uh, keeping people in the right circles, you know? For starters, I didn't understa- circles, boundaries, you can call them whatever you like, but, you know, inner circle boundary, outer circle, and blah blah blah. As- as you go, and like a target board, you know, a dartboard. You have inner circle and it goes out, and then I will know where to put you, you know?

Alex Partridge 14:43 What would someone have to do if they were in your inner circle to be removed from it?

Dez Rock 14:47 Betray my trust.

Alex Partridge 14:49 And what might that look like?

Dez Rock 14:51 Well, betrayal of trust looks like lots of things, doesn't it? Like, uh, yeah, so it could be any of those really.

Alex Partridge 14:56 Mm.

Dez Rock 14:56 Anything that you can imagine is a betrayal of trust if I feel it, and if I feel like, oh, um, it would be quite swift unfortunately af- straight after that. Um, and I'm... I deliberate a lot. Like I, um, self-analyze a lot. A lot. And uh, it would take me a while to get there, but once I've achieved the fact that this is, what you've done is, um, was out of malice, like I'll look for the intention. If I think this is out of malice, and this is out of whatever. There was no compassion, there was no authenticity, there was no... It, you know, if I s- if I feel that, then yeah, then that's a-

Alex Partridge 15:33 Mm

Dez Rock 15:33 ... done

Dez Rock 15:34 deal for me.

Alex Partridge 15:35 We've had quite a few people on the podcast over the last five or six months. They've come on and they've been incredibly articulate, appearing to be incredibly confident. They've had great eye contact. But then, uh, uh, speaking to them afterwards-

Dez Rock 15:48 Mm

Alex Partridge 15:48 ... in the following weeks, they've revealed and opened up that they were actually struggling at an, an, an immense amount. And in some rare occasions, they resorted to alcohol the night before to deal with the nerves of coming on.

Dez Rock 16:00 Okay.

Alex Partridge 16:01 Why do you think some people with ADHD have such a gap between the version of them they present in public and what's going on inside their minds?

Dez Rock 16:10 So why, why are they anxious? What's causing the anxiety is what I'm hearing. Is that right?

Alex Partridge 16:15 What's causing the, that, but also what's causing the gap between what's going on, the anxiety that's going on in their head and how they're presenting in public? 'Cause they- they've come on the show. They've appeared-

Dez Rock 16:23 No

Alex Partridge 16:23 ... to be very confident, but-

Dez Rock 16:25 Unsure of if they're going to be accepted or not. That's what causes the anxiety. If you're not sure if you're going to be accepted for who you are, anxiety's gonna flare up. This is a high-pressure situation, right? 'Cause I've got people listening. You're, you know, you're asking questions that I'm not gonna sure how I'm going to answer. Of course it's anxiety inducing. So if I felt like, I don't know if I'm gonna make the biggest fool of myself, or I don't know, uh, how I'm going to come across. Will people like me? Won't they like me? Are you going to... What you're going to think of me? If all of these are running through my mind, of course I'm going to need, what do they used to call it? Mother's help, you know, to get through the situation. Um, uh, fortunately, I really like you, Alex. I- I didn't have that anxiety coming in here, um, and feel very comfortable talking to you 'cause I've already assessed and thought you're, you're my people.

Alex Partridge 17:13 What was, what gave it away that I was your type of person?

Dez Rock 17:17 The conversation we had off the record after our first discussion.

Alex Partridge 17:22 Typically, yeah.

Dez Rock 17:22 And I remember that vividly 'cause we, we both were like, "We could really continue talking about this." I remember it vividly, and I said, "Anytime you want, you know, let's continue this." And, uh, we didn't, and that's totally fine 'cause you've got your career and I've got my career, and we went our separate ways. But it doesn't matter. See, we could pick that up anytime you want.

Alex Partridge 17:39 Mm.

Dez Rock 17:39 And for me, that's fine. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 17:40 I think that's the best type of friendships for a, for a neurodivergent person is-

Dez Rock 17:44 Right

Alex Partridge 17:44 ... is the one that doesn't require constant watering.

Dez Rock 17:46 [laughs] Yeah.

Alex Partridge 17:47 You know, unlike those plants on my balcony during lockdown. [laughs]

Dez Rock 17:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Partridge 17:50 The ones that-

Dez Rock 17:50 That's a good way to put it

Alex Partridge 17:51 ... you can almost just... And it's not a selfish thing. It's not. It sounds like, "Oh, well that's just an excuse," but the types of friendships where you can essentially just ignore for months-

Dez Rock 18:00 Right

Alex Partridge 18:00 ... maybe even years, but you can just come back-

Dez Rock 18:02 Get back

Alex Partridge 18:02 ... together and it, and it, it's like no time has passed. I think they're the-

Dez Rock 18:05 Yes. I have plenty of those types of friendships. And as soon as I walk into the room, pick up in, they pick up the mantle exactly where I left it. And there's no malice on either side about, "Oh, but you haven't called me." There's none of that. Absolutely none of that. So there's no guilt trips, there's no shame involved, so I'm comfortable

Dez Rock 18:23 then.

Alex Partridge 18:24 You mentioned something last time we spoke. I was keen to pick it up. Do you think someone's status in life makes an impact on how their ADHD is perceived?

Dez Rock 18:35 Yeah. But more importantly, I think your cultural background also, uh, affects that as well. You know? Uh, how your culture, how your society views diversity impacts on how you can deal with it as well. Uh, in the Western culture, it's often a real big issue. You know? A real big issue. Like we talk about it, uh, they're unusual, their brains are different, this, that, the other. They're not normal. That's why we use neuro-normal or neuro-typical, and then there's the other alternative, and you can call it spicy, you can call it diverse, but there's also s- the- we, we ascertain or we el- assume there is a standard, and then there is outside the standard. Now, I can't object strongly. Uh, like I vehemently disagree with that. And if I haven't made that clear, I'll reiterate. You know? I, I reject that notion altogether. There, that there is a standard, and then there is an outside the standard. So when you're saying it's like, um, you know, how we perceive ourselves and, you know, whether our standing in society, I- or, you know, uh, how we are, I think there's a lot of factors that affect that, and that includes our society. It includes who you are, includes how much money you have, includes everything, your skin color. It includes your race, your gender. I think they all compile on to how you experience your diversity.

Alex Partridge 20:09 Someone's diversity is obviously always gonna be unique from the next person.

Dez Rock 20:14 Mm.

Alex Partridge 20:14 And you essentially, you'll go up to a buffet table, and you pick different traits.

Dez Rock 20:19 That's right.

Alex Partridge 20:19 And then they add up to what society would give you a diagnosis for it?

Dez Rock 20:24 Correct. So again, I reject the notions of labels, for example. I know we call it ADHD and all that sort of stuff, and I accept that it's ADHD, and I've been diagnosed with ADHD, but if we say ADHD full stop, that doesn't explain what I have at all. Um, I have, and do you want me to reiterate? I, I truly believe, uh, there's a diversity, sorry, a buffet of diversity at hand, and we all wake, walk up with an empty plate, and we all take a serving. We've taken, my, my obviously my protein is ADHD over here, [laughs] and then there's all these other side dishes as well, right? So aphantasia, um, you know, dyslexia, whatever it may be, and then that makes up my diversity. And of course, my plate's going to look different to yours, and therefore, my diagnotion, my treatment, how I walk about life, how I cope is obviously going to be different to yours. And so therefore, anyone listening cannot ever say, "Well, she's, looks like she's got her..." Can I swear?

Alex Partridge 21:22 Mm, sure.

Dez Rock 21:22 "She looks like she's got her shit together."

Alex Partridge 21:23 Mm.

Dez Rock 21:24 "How come I don't? I feel like crap." That's an very, very unfair statement. Hugely unfair. First of all, compassion is not complete unless it includes you, right? So focus in on that. But also, the second thing is is that you, we don't have the same plate. It, s- you need to work on what's on your plate, and your plate might be heavier than mine. That's not

Dez Rock 21:46 fair to compare.

Alex Partridge 21:47 So do you think it's a bit toxic or unhelpful when someone's watching TikTok and they self-diagnose with-

Dez Rock 21:52 Oh, for sure

Alex Partridge 21:53 ... when every diagnosis is as unique as a fingerprint?

Dez Rock 21:57 Exactly. I think it is toxic. I think, but that's, I don't think that in our indust- you know, in this field it's the only toxicity that exists. I think anything where we pigeonhole and say, "That's exactly what it looks like, and if yours looks different, it's you", that's ridiculous, right? So yes, I do. I think that is incredibly unhelpful, um, when we're still learning. I mean, this is a whole ex- you know, what, what you're exploring, right? And we're still learning what this is. Not only learning, but learning how to cope with it, learning how to succeed with it, learning everything about this. So during this journey, to be able to say, "And these are the traits of ADHD, and if you don't have X, Y, and blah, blah, blah, blah, and five trait, blah, blah, blah. If you don't have these five, mm, are you even ADHD?" What a load of shit, right? Um, because yours might look completely different. For example, I don't have lateness. You know that time blindness? I don't have it. But that's such a huge one for ADHD, right? Now, because I don't have time blindness, does that, you gonna kick me out of the club? I'm not going anywhere. I've, I've got a corner suite, you know? [laughs] I ain't going anywhere. But my point is is that mine doesn't look like that, you know? Um, mine

Dez Rock 23:05 looks like mine.

Alex Partridge 23:06 Were, were there any traits in your life that you kind of thought were weird, and then you got your diagnosis and you thought-

Dez Rock 23:12 Oh

Alex Partridge 23:12 ... "That makes sense"?

Dez Rock 23:13 Wait, let me go get my list.

Alex Partridge 23:14 [laughs]

Dez Rock 23:15 Hang on. You know? [laughs] Um, it'd be a toilet roll, you know one of those ones-

Alex Partridge 23:20 [laughs]

Dez Rock 23:20 ... where it just goes on and on.

Alex Partridge 23:21 Big scroll.

Dez Rock 23:21 Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. That would've been a great, uh, visual.

Alex Partridge 23:25 [laughs]

Dez Rock 23:25 But, um, so yes, yes. And I think that is one of the things that, uh, a post-diagnosed person, you know, when they, the life flashes past their eyes and you go, "Oh, that moment. Yep, that explains that. Oh, that moment. That explains that." And then you cringe, and you cringe, and you cr- We've all, all lived through that. So yeah, there is a lot of things that I look back on and I go, "Wish I had've known." I probably... You know? Or some of the things where I feel really sad for the younger version of me where I go, "Damn it, I was so hard on myself," because, you know, I didn't know.

Alex Partridge 24:01 What, what were the, the biggest pain points, the biggest examples you can think when you look back on your life that you wish you had known i- in that moment?

Dez Rock 24:10 Um, the wa- the area in, in which I struggled with the most, which was, uh, friendships and relationships. So I would have, if I had've known, if I was more aware, it was such a blind spot for me, but if I was more aware, I would've been able to cope and navigate through that much more efficiently than I did. I stumbled and fumbled and really stuffed it up so beautifully, you know? And I, I wish w- there was life had a reset button where you could redo it, but we don't have one, so I have to... That's, you see? So that's where I'd be like I, I see the past, and I cringe and all of that sort of stuff, but

Dez Rock 24:47 what do you do?

Alex Partridge 24:48 Relationships is a big one. I, I'm similar. I can think back and see if I had only just known that-

Dez Rock 24:52 Mm

Alex Partridge 24:52 ... relationship, that argument probably wouldn't have happened.

Dez Rock 24:55 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 24:55 Can you see specific examples where ADHD might have been the cause of-

Dez Rock 24:59 Yeah

Alex Partridge 24:59 ... relationship problems?

Dez Rock 25:00 Yeah. Not, okay, so not personal r- no, not, uh, like intimate relationships, but friendships, yes. Hell yes.

Alex Partridge 25:09 What happened in those friendships?

Dez Rock 25:11 Hmm. Uh, what we touched on already. Over, too much over-sharing, uh, trying to bond in the incorrect manner. Uh, different perspectives of what intimacy looks like, you know, as in or trust looks like or vulnerability looks like.

Alex Partridge 25:26 If you could go back in time and give your younger version of Dez some advice, what would you sort of whisper into your ear?

Dez Rock 25:31 You've got ADHD. That would've been really handy. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 25:36 And can you see other neurodiversity within your f- family?

Dez Rock 25:40 Yeah. God, yeah, it's hereditary. Yeah. Hell yeah. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 25:43 What does that look like? Sort of you paint a picture of a day in your household.

Dez Rock 25:46 I love it because they don't, y- like 'cause I know. Oh, oh, it's, so within my immediate family, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they're... Look, the younger generation, my children, are a lot more aware. They're a lot- they've got the ability, they have the privilege of, oh, the knowledge, uh, of being diagnosed, asking for help, looking for resources, um, knowing earlier, and I think that is brilliant.

Alex Partridge 26:09 I've spoken to a lot of people, and in the community as well, and relationships, maintaining relationships, marriages, is a big struggle.

Dez Rock 26:16 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 26:17 How does that look like, ADHD neurodiversity in your marriage?

Dez Rock 26:21 So I would say my partner is also neurodiverse. Um, similar to yours, I'd say. Yeah. So, um, in which case, I think the diagnotion and the awareness has made a far more impact because now we're all aware, and, uh, we're more mindful. I'm far more mindful of his, uh, y- you can call them idiosyncrasies or his things, quirks that I say, "Why are you doing this? You're doing this to annoy me." Whereas that's not true, um, and vice versa. And so a lot more patience, a lot more sort of understanding, and a lot more, "All right, this is part of who you are," right? And I know I need... For example, you know, if I was to compare myself with my husband, he is a steam- streamline. You know, like if you look at a big cruise- cruiser, it just goes along, never changes course, stable as can be, and that's exactly what an ADHD will gravitate to because we are a jet ski, right? Woo, woo, woo, woo.

Alex Partridge 27:18 [laughs]

Dez Rock 27:18 That's what we are, right? Changing course at any moment, right? Attracted to stability, right? Um, so sometimes what has attracted me to him will annoy the crap out of me. It's like, "Oh, God sake, can't we just... Can you just for one..." You know, and here I am trying to get him to be a jet ski, right? So I've now learned that no, no, he's going to take his time to come to his conclusion, and give him the time to ta- come to that conclusion, whatever that may be. Stop trying to make him into what I am, and in vice versa. He will s- understand that, uh, how fast I move, how, you know, and, and w- the way my brain works. And often gets out of my way because he also knows that the results are amazing. So just stand out of her way and watch. You know, like, do you know like that let her cook meme?

Alex Partridge 28:04 Mm.

Dez Rock 28:04 Bit of that going on, yeah.

Alex Partridge 28:06 Does he have a diagnosis?

Dez Rock 28:08 Self-diagnosed.

Alex Partridge 28:10 He has enough bits on the table.

Dez Rock 28:11 Yeah, no, exactly. Where he would say he would be on the spectrum, yeah.

Alex Partridge 28:14 Mm.

Dez Rock 28:14 Yeah. I would also agree. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 28:17 And you, you alluded to there sometimes they can clash. Have there, have there been any moments where there's-

Dez Rock 28:22 Of course. Especially prior to diagnotion. You don't know what's g-... That is the worst, you know? Because of course you don't know what's going on. There's no pre- You, you, [sighs] you make, yeah. Well, also when you're younger, you expect, you know, you're almost trying to... You find the partner who you, who has everything that you need that's missing from you, and then you go methodically trying to change them into you, you know? Until you wake up and you go, "That's not the way it works." You don't, you don't do that. So there's a bit of wisdom with there with age as well, compiled with, uh, the diagnotion and understanding and a long-term relationship always ebbs and flows, and if you're never growing in your relationship and you're staying stale, that's, that's an ending. So there's always growth. So there has to be the potential for both of you to be able to

Dez Rock 29:09 grow.

Alex Partridge 29:09 And how does ADHD help you being a mother, do you think?

Dez Rock 29:13 I don't know if it's helped. [laughs] Do you know what? You need to speak to my kids on that one. How, what's it like, you know, with Dez as a mum? [sighs]

Alex Partridge 29:23 What do you think they'd say?

Dez Rock 29:26 I'd be interested to hear it for sure. Um, yeah, I'd be interested to hear it. Mindful of that they're in their teenage years and their early 20s, but, um, yeah, knowing that they've all got diversity as well. So yeah, we're... I, I don't know what they would say, and I don't presume to know, by the way. I think that's their journey and their experience, and I can't even say this is their experience of what it's like to be a child from my parenting. But as a parent, uh, it means that I could look after, like I could juggle effectively and not get exhausted from doing some of the stuff. Like I traveled with my kids for work, and I used to strap my son to my back and go and, and do business, and go into bus- and stuff like that. People go, "How do you get on a plane with four kids?" And I s- and I sit there and think, "I don't even understand the question. What do you mean? Like, what's, what, what are you trying to say?" And they're like, "It's just chaos." And I'm like, "Suppose it is f- you know, when you look at it like that." But it never appeared to me like that because I can handle chaos. That's a walk in the park.

Alex Partridge 30:32 I suppose, uh, are there any heart wrenching moments as a mother that you have, seeing any struggles your children-

Dez Rock 30:39 Yeah

Alex Partridge 30:39 ... might be going through because of their diversity?

Dez Rock 30:43 Yeah. There's a awful and painful memory that I have to live with, and that is when I found out my daughter had autism. And, um, at that stage I wasn't diagnosed, and all I knew there was something wrong with my daughter. And I did not handle that well. And I tried. I did not know how to handle that well, but my daughter being ever so vigilant, saw her mother cry, and so internalized that as, "This is bad. This is awful." And I instilled shame into her unwittingly, but I did. And I deeply regret that. We have talked about that since. I do this as penance, you know, to remove the shame that anyone would have.

Alex Partridge 31:38 Has it- has y- have you made a positive movement now towards-

Dez Rock 31:42 We've talked about it. Her and I have talked about that, and I have apologized deeply that that came from a space of just confusion and unknowing, and any child hearing about their daughter or their child, bit something wrong, every mother, n- that's the... No one wants to hear that. And I think the way I see it now is the way I was told that there's something... There's something wrong with the system telling you that there's something wrong because of neurodiversity, you see. So I should have been told she's neurodiverse, you know. The way it was painted was like, "Well, she's autistic," and then there was dot, dot, dot, and this means X, Y, Z, right? Whereas the reality is, I wouldn't swap her for the world. I love her for everything she is.

Alex Partridge 32:34 Do you think the stigma of autism played a part in your reaction-

Dez Rock 32:38 Of course

Alex Partridge 32:38 ... at that time?

Dez Rock 32:39 Of course, 'cause when you think of autism, I grew up in the era where autism was Rain Man. Yeah. Yeah, of course, which is why I'm here now combating that, doing everything I can to... And I hope that more and more people come out as autistic because there isn't-- We need to sh- see people as being autistic, uh, who aren't Rain Man. You know what I'm saying? Like, who are every... So the, to remove the shame. And I know we start, and we say ADHD, and ADHD is maybe, mm, the crowbar leverage to a deeper conversation of autism, you know? But to me, and this is why I say it's a buffet table, neurodiversity is neurodiversity.

Alex Partridge 33:25 How do you think your daughter will feel when she watches this?

Dez Rock 33:27 I'd be very surprised if she watches this. [laughs] Um, th- nothing I've said i- hasn't already been said in private and hasn't already been said to her, um, and isn't already stuff that she knows. By the way, she's the one who coined neuro-spicy as well way back in the day, and we made stickers way back in the day too. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 33:52 Thanks for sharing that.

Dez Rock 33:53 Oh.

Alex Partridge 33:54 How do you think neurodiversity has served us as a species?

Dez Rock 33:59 Yeah. It's pushed us forward. Anything that's been, uh, phenomenal in humanity, all the way back from our evolution of humans, it's been the diverse people who are thinking outside the box. You, people, humanity needs us. Always needs us. I think the reason why we don't cope is that on the general, we're living such boring lives, you know, in such boring Western world. Boring, boring lives. But if there was, and I think we mentioned this time, last time, if there was a crisis, like a pandemic or like a war, God forbid, right? But if there is such chaos, that's when you need us, 'cause no one will outthink us. We'll come up with the solutions, and we are at our most peaceful, most of us. Some was gonna say, "Oh, but not me. I didn't li-" Yeah, I know. I know. Let's... I know that, but most of us will come alive and then know what to do.

Alex Partridge 34:51 Great in a crisis.

Dez Rock 34:52 Great in a crisis.

Alex Partridge 34:53 When things go wrong, and everyone's panicking, we're-

Dez Rock 34:55 And humanity needs that

Alex Partridge 34:56 ... navigating the path to success.

Dez Rock 34:58 Correct. Now, you think of all of the changes in the world. You think of all the leaders, the movers, the shakers, the ones who really, really made a difference. I'm gonna bet diversity.

Alex Partridge 35:08 Do you think autism needs to have its day in the same way that ADHD and other conditions are having their day?

Dez Rock 35:15 Mm.

Alex Partridge 35:15 Lots of people are coming out. ADHD is almost... It's not a trend. It's not trendy, but it's, it's considerably less stigmatized-

Dez Rock 35:24 Correct

Alex Partridge 35:25 ... over the last f- 24 months because of lots of famous people, lots of people talking about it-

Dez Rock 35:29 Right

Alex Partridge 35:30 ... coming out, things like this, if I'm honest.

Dez Rock 35:32 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 35:32 Do you think autism needs its day?

Dez Rock 35:34 More than ever. More than ever. Because I think that ADHD, I'm not sure if that ever had the shame and the stigma surrounding it the way autism did. Like one movie really, look at the damage that did, right? So we need maybe 10 movies showing autism in a much more positive light. Mm.

Alex Partridge 35:56 Do you think there's a correlation between autism and high-functioning successful people?

Dez Rock 36:01 [sighs] I think it's a spectrum. I think there's... Autism is au- Like, I... And I've got a lot of friends with autism and, uh, ADHD or neurodiversity and all that s- uh, to me, it's all diversity, right? We're all X-Men. Yeah, I think we have to learn that's a coping mechanism, being, having a highly functional, if you can, if your, if your diversity allows you to be highly functioning. And along comes with that the blessings of being anxious, riddled, and all that. It... And do you know why? Because we're not allowed to... We're like a caged tiger. We're not allowed to be ourselves. We have to conform, right? That's why. So if you wanna start, you have to start by changing our societal expectations, like if you really want to start on that stuff. And that starts at school probably, yeah.

Alex Partridge 36:49 You clearly view your ADHD as a gift-

Dez Rock 36:52 Mm

Alex Partridge 36:52 ... and a benefit, almost associating it-

Dez Rock 36:54 And a curse. At the same breath I'll say, and curse. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 36:58 If you were to look at it as a ratio, what would be the percentage of the benefit to the percentage of the curse?

Dez Rock 37:03 I think it's like that old adage, you know, the two wolves within your- within you, which one do you feed? I chose to feed the gift.

Alex Partridge 37:11 There will be a lot of people listening who don't see any, if at all, of the positive side, and they're really struggling.

Dez Rock 37:19 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 37:19 What do you think it is about you then that y- you've been able to frame it in such a positive way, almost to make it sound a bit like a superpower?

Dez Rock 37:29 Nothing changes but perspective. I've chosen this perspective. Yeah. So often it's a conscious choice. There are times where I am admitting it's a curse as well. There are times where it has manifested in ways that has ruined certain things for me. I can focus in on that too, and make a day out of it. Often it's a conscious choice to focus in on

Dez Rock 37:57 the parts that are good.

Alex Partridge 37:58 I want to ask you a question. It's in the washing machine of woes. I don't know if I explained this before.

Dez Rock 38:03 Go ahead.

Alex Partridge 38:03 Every week I ask my Instagram community for their ADHD woes, and I put it in the washing machine, because for me, and I want to ask you if it's the same-

Dez Rock 38:11 Okay

Alex Partridge 38:11 ... washing machine represents my biggest woe, which is memory loss, because I always leave my laundry in the machine. You leave your washing in the machine often?

Dez Rock 38:19 Yes.

Alex Partridge 38:20 You've got that from the buffet table as well.

Dez Rock 38:22 Yes, I did. Yes. Many of times I've had to re-wash towels, yes.

Alex Partridge 38:27 This week in the machine we have, [clears throat] "I'm neurodiverse and my children have autism and ADHD, but they feel we are just dysfunctional as a family. Is there anything you can suggest to make us feel like a special family as opposed to a strange one?"

Dez Rock 38:46 That's a matter of perspective. You are a special family. That's it. You... That's a matter of ch- the perspec- not again, nothing changes but perspective. So I would question and challenge, internally challenge what made you feel that they were... What was the word that they were using? Not a special family, but a dysfunctional or-

Alex Partridge 39:10 Dys- uh, yeah, dysfunctional.

Dez Rock 39:12 What was the last word they used? Not a-

Alex Partridge 39:14 Strange.

Dez Rock 39:15 Strange. See, strange is a word that's been foisted onto them. Yeah. They didn't go around picking that up. They've been told they're strange. Yeah. And I would question and challenge that question. Who, who, who put that notion in your mind that you're strange? Good Lord, I think there's nothing more stranger than neuro-beige people. I'll be honest, some of the shite they do is strange to me. So it's perspective, isn't it? Yeah. So families, for starters, you have a family, that's a blessing. You have children, that's a blessing. You know, uh, look for the things that, um, bring you joy and measure it in your way. So like, not in the way society wants you to.

Alex Partridge 39:56 Were you proud to be different even before your diagnosis?

Dez Rock 40:03 Mm. No. I was steeped in shame. I n- wanted nothing more than to fit in and be like everybody else. I wasted a good amount of time, Alex, trying to be liked. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 40:19 Where do you think that came from?

Dez Rock 40:21 I think inherently, as every woman will know, we're fucking told to do that. You know? Mm.

Alex Partridge 40:28 By who?

Dez Rock 40:29 Society. Yeah. Expectation is, you know, uh, be good, be liked, be wanted, be whatever, you know, ex- XYZ, do all of that. And so f- you spend, that's your 20s, and you spend your 30s, 40s, and beyond undoing all of that crap. And then once you've taken on the layer of neurodiversity and understood that, and then you go, "Oh, crikey, this is just a whole different layer." You know? Everyone was dealing with cake, and we've got parfait. You know? Different.

Alex Partridge 40:57 What do you think the costs are of not undoing that?

Dez Rock 41:02 I think you're very s- often, who, the essence of who you are, you'll never understand who you are if you never get to meet you. You know what I mean? If you don't peel down to the core of you and have the freedom [sighs] to be yourself and the safe space to be yourself. So this woman who's talking about her children being strange and her family being strange, you know? Imagine if she was in a society where no one said strange, no one, that's just, that's how they are, and just accepted them for who they were. She'd stand a little taller, right? Yeah. So the cost of not finding and not doing the work, that's a really heavy toll. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. It's... I, I, I, I liken it to people who have to hide their identity, hide their sexuality, hide their anything for the rest of their lives. That's rubbish, you know? We all know the value of living your authentic life, being true to yourself. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 42:02 Was there a particular moment when you realized that the version of Dez that you were presenting to the world wasn't in line with who Dez was underneath?

Dez Rock 42:09 Yeah. [scoffs] Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting because the more I shined, the more I allowed myself to be me, the more successful I was, right? Um, so pretending, this is gonna be breakthrough news, didn't work, right? [laughs] Shattering, I know. Pretending to be not me- Was not a really good strategy. Um, so being me, authentically me, turned out to be really, really good for me in every way possible. I've yet to meet someone who said, "I finally accept myself, and I finally love who I am, and it's been really shit." Yet to meet that person.

Alex Partridge 42:57 And how was your self-esteem through that process? Did it increase?

Dez Rock 43:01 Well, I... [laughs] That's a really good question. I'll tell you why. Because early on, I actually thought there was nothing wrong with my self-esteem. I honestly thought my self-esteem was perhaps higher than most. I used to, [laughs] I used to think I had a really good self-esteem, right? Uh, but I was measuring self-esteem incorrectly. I was measuring self-esteem not on the scale of, I don't know, I- I- differently. I was measuring it... When I s- realized that, in effect, my self-esteem was incredibly low, so low, so rubbish, that my consciousness was hiding parts of trauma and all that sort of stuff away from me, that the brain is powerful enough to do that, that was an awakening moment. You know, I, I don't know if that resonates with anybody, but yeah, that was an awakening moment that I didn't even know that there were parts that I had to unravel. Once I unraveled them, and Lord, did that... That was hard. That was a difficult walk I wouldn't wish on my enemies. The reward, however, was a more authentic me and a more peaceful me. It's a lot more peaceful in my mind now than it was before.

Alex Partridge 44:11 And if someone's going through the process of trying to unmask and find out who they really are, do you have any advice for someone who's starting that journey?

Dez Rock 44:21 It's gonna be really hard, and it's gonna suck badly. There were times when I would come out with a full-body rash. You know? Like physical manifestations. There were times where I would walk into a therapy session, for example, and come out with a, my body aching like a full-body cold, you know? I was talking about just the physical manifest- It felt like poison oozing out of me. It was a difficult path. The only thing I can say is, keep going.

Alex Partridge 44:54 And when you lifted that mask, was there anything that you didn't like? Anything you saw that you didn't like?

Dez Rock 44:59 About me? No, because once you... [laughs] It's funny that once you actually accept, you know, once you face yourself, and you show compassion to yourself, if there's things you don't like, you haven't reached the core of you yet because the core of you is non-judgmental. The core of you is just you, right? So if you haven't gotten there yet, you need to keep going.

Alex Partridge 45:22 Dez, we've got a closing tradition on the podcast, and I ask all my guests, what's the most impulsive thing you've ever done?

Dez Rock 45:30 Yeah. That would not be a one-item thing. That would be a scroll full of items where it would unfurl and then roll onto the floor. [laughs] And we would go through them much like Santa with his list. Um, so a lot, a lot of impulsive things I have done. A lot. Sometimes they've been brilliant.

Alex Partridge 45:56 If there was one at the top of this scroll, and I think the scroll is gonna be your ADHD item by the sounds of it-

Dez Rock 46:01 Okay

Alex Partridge 46:02 ... what would the top one be?

Dez Rock 46:03 There's a lot of impulsiveness there. I think the impu- hmm, getting into a relationship. Being, getting married, impulsive.

Alex Partridge 46:12 And it's lasted.

Dez Rock 46:14 Through thick and thin, better or worse, rich, poor. It was almost like a to-do list. We really went through it, [laughs] you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 46:24 What was the, what was the gap between proposal and the marriage?

Dez Rock 46:27 So no, it was asked around. So we, I refused to get married. I didn't want any of that stuff, um, for various reasons. And, uh, he really did, and I said, "No, that ain't gonna happen." And, um, something that the in- the even... Look, even to start up a relationship was impulsive, and um, to stay in the relationship was impulsive, to get married was impulsive. So actually, the marriage part wasn't impu- impulsive so much because the only thing that sealed the deal for me is that my daughter came along, right? And I had said avi- originally, I would not. The only reason I would get married is if there, if there were children involved. Saw no reason, I saw no reason for this institution, right? Um, until this happened and blah, blah, blah. All that sort of stuff. But, um, to get together was very impulsive, yeah.

Alex Partridge 47:24 And the reason for not wanting to get married, it was just because of the not wanting to be a part of an institution. Was there anything else?

Dez Rock 47:30 Uh, no. It was deeper than that. I actually was [laughs] ironically, um, uh, diagnosed as infertile. And so I had said, uh, would never get married, would never tie any man down because at some stage, he's gonna work out he's gonna want a family, and I ain't going through that. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 47:48 And then you had a, had a child.

Dez Rock 47:51 That's right. That's right.

Alex Partridge 47:52 That sounds like a whole nother podcast. [laughs]

Dez Rock 47:54 That sounds like a whole nother podcast where I kicked infertility's ass-

Alex Partridge 47:57 Yeah

Dez Rock 47:57 ... and then had four. Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 47:59 Well, that's some great news to end on.

Dez Rock 48:01 Yeah. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 48:02 Belated congratulations, and what a nice tone to end the-

Dez Rock 48:05 Yeah

Alex Partridge 48:05 ... episode on.

Dez Rock 48:06 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 48:06 Dez, this has been a lot of fun. Thank you very much.

Dez Rock 48:08 Thank you again for having me. [outro music]