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4 Late Diagnosed ADHD Women Share Life Hacks | Christmas Special

4 late diagnosed ADHD women sit together in conversation and share their ADHD lessons and hacks.

Kat BrownguestEllie MiddletonguestShappi KhorsandiguestAlex PartridgehostStacey Duguidguest

Dec 24, 20241h 17mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

80 min read · 15,748 words

0:00 – 3:16
Cold open: quick ADHD anecdotes and roundtable setup
1. KBKat Brown
  Yeah, I've got ADHD, but I, I really have to take responsibility
2. EMEllie Middleton
  It's almost like a new form of masking. Like, I'm not masking as a neurotypical person anymore
3. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Oh. Not reading emails is how I've ended up going to Norway and doing a panel discussion about democracy-
4. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
5. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... 'cause I thought it was a comedy panel show
6. APAlex Partridge
  Today's episode is very special, and something I've wanted to do for a very long time. I sat down with some of ADHD Chatter's incredible guests to share their stories and swap experiences to help make sense of it all. We have the privilege of being here with Kat Brown, author and journalist
7. KBKat Brown
  I initially found giving up drinking quite challenging, was because it shone a light onto how much social anxiety I was covering with that
8. APAlex Partridge
  Stacey Duguid, author and journalist
9. SKShappi Khorsandi
  And they cried about my book. Then I was like, "What am I doing hiding away?"
10. APAlex Partridge
  Ellie Middleton, ADHD activist and author
11. EMEllie Middleton
  Just wish that I could have one day where everything would run smoothly
12. APAlex Partridge
  Shappi Khorsandi, comedian and author
13. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Like, meeting, like, really powerful people-
14. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
15. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... in the comedy industry and deciding what I was gonna tell them was how I died on my ass last week. And think, "Oh, that's really great 'cause I made them laugh." It's like, no, what you did was just batter yourself into the ground in front of people.
16. KBKat Brown
  Yes. [gentle music]
17. APAlex Partridge
  This sponsored ad was agreed to be 90 seconds long, but because I know most of you have ADHD, I negotiated it down to 89 seconds. I challenge you to test your ADHD by seeing if you can sit still for one minute 30 seconds while I tell you about our sponsor, Tiimo app. If I can sit down and record take after take of this message for two hours, then I'm sure you can listen to 90 seconds. So here's a short word from our sponsor. Tiimo app is a perfectly tailored app that I use daily, and maybe it's worth you giving it a try to see how it might improve organizing your life, too. Running a podcast is actually a lot harder than you might think, and juggling all of the moving parts would be near impossible if it weren't for Tiimo app. How? Well, Tiimo is designed specifically to hack the neurodivergent brain, a brain that might struggle with time agnosia, object permanence, memory cognitive load, task initiation, anxiety, or procrastination. All things I'm extremely guilty of, too. And how on earth does it help you, Alex, I hear you scream impatiently at your computer or phone screens. Well, the award-winning Tiimo app is the perfect life hacking tool to help your time management and kick you up the bum when you need it most. If you want to stay ahead of the competition, then the visual planning Tiimo app is specifically designed to help your structuring, organizing, focusing, and goal setting. It has a visual timer, providing a tangible and visual representation of time to help users pace themselves so you never miss a deadline ever again. It also has an efficient lock screen reminder service to alert those of you who are very out of sight, out of mind with your chores and afraid you might forget them. It brilliantly centers all of your tasks in one place across devices, both on a web and mobile apps, to streamline your overflowing schedules and make them much more digestible and a lot less intimidating.
3:16 – 5:44
What they’ve learned since their episodes: ADHD as part of a bigger life picture
1. APAlex Partridge
  And for those who find big tasks too overwhelming to even start, Tiimo breaks them down into more manageable subtasks to get the ball rolling. In fact, this app helps me so much that it actually reminded me to record this message to advertise the app. Give it a go. Why not? It might just help. Anyway, back to the episode. Thank you all for joining us on a, um, an ADHD Chatter first. Um, hopefully not the last. I've interviewed you all on, on ADHD Chatter. Um, I've heard you share your stories, and it's been massively beneficial to hundreds of thousands of people. Uh, I think to get things going and to start off the, the conversation, I suppose I'd be curious to know what you've learnt about yourself and ADHD since our episodes together, and I suppose I'll start with, um, Kat.
2. KBKat Brown
  It's a nice big question to get things kicked off with.
3. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
4. KBKat Brown
  Um, I think the thing that comes to mind first is actually that it's not so much about just ADHD for me.
5. APAlex Partridge
  Mm.
6. KBKat Brown
  It's about how it fits into all the other layers of my life, and I'm fascinated in the way that things that I've picked up, either from being part of a 12-step program or-
7. APAlex Partridge
  Mm
8. KBKat Brown
  ... or therapy or, you know, reading or just-
9. APAlex Partridge
  Mm
10. KBKat Brown
  ... you know, chatting to friends and stuff, how, how much that has really helped me coming to terms with how my brain works and how... And not just how my brain works, but how it sort of fits into life. Um, uh, this, this whole discovery has sort of really coincided with quite a horrendous series of, like, health problems for me, which has also meant that, yeah, I'm on your podcast, and it's amazing, and this is really lovely, and I've got a book out.
11. APAlex Partridge
  Mm.
12. KBKat Brown
  But also I haven't been able to, like, work properly, and I haven't been able to, to my mind, pull my weight at home, if you like. And so I've been feeling like a horrendous, like, imposter, and knowing that actually, weirdly, that sort of feeds into the ADHD and the emotional dysregulation, that has sort of helped make dealing with it all a little bit m- more possible. And not now that I'm sort of coming out into the end with it, and I will never be unwell again, and nothing bad will ever happen again, but my God, it's just really helped in terms of why everything has just been more difficult than I thought it would be.
13. APAlex Partridge
  Mm. Imposter syndrome is huge, isn't it? Um, does anyone else relate to that?
14. EMEllie Middleton
  [laughs]
5:44 – 8:14
Dual lives and “ADHD expert” masking: public persona vs private reality
1. EMEllie Middleton
  All the time. I feel like sometimes I feel like I'm living out, like, a dual life of, like, Ellie Middleton-
2. APAlex Partridge
  Mm
3. EMEllie Middleton
  ... the author and ADHD expert, and then-
4. KBKat Brown
  Mm
5. EMEllie Middleton
  ... Ellie. And I'm like, it, uh, I can t- and I can... I think it's that thing of, like, y- taking your own advice. Like, I can give, I can tell people why you're feeling that way. I can tell people what you should do to not feel that way. I can tell people how you can support yourself, how you can make yourself feel better, and then I can still feel horrendous and feel awful and feel all of those things. Um, so I do think that there, there is that. And I think it's, like, really frustrating as well 'cause it's like there's no way to get that across to people without, like- ... bearing your soul all of the time.
6. KBKat Brown
  Yeah.
7. EMEllie Middleton
  Like, I can't post a story on Instagram every time I'm having a bad day, 'cause I don't wanna go anywhere near a camera, and I don't wanna talk to anyone, I don't wanna do anything. Um, but I definitely think there is, like, it feels like that duality sometimes of, like, this is the bright, shiny person that the world sees. It's almost like a new form of masking. Like, I'm not masking as a neurotypical person anymore.
8. KBKat Brown
  Oh, okay. [laughs]
9. EMEllie Middleton
  But I'm masking as, like, the ADHD expert-
10. KBKat Brown
  Mm
11. EMEllie Middleton
  ... um, even though that's still... It's like-
12. KBKat Brown
  That's really clever.
13. EMEllie Middleton
  Yeah, it's not like... It's, it's still not me, it's just a different mask, I think-
14. KBKat Brown
  Mm
15. EMEllie Middleton
  ... sometimes I feel like, yeah.
16. KBKat Brown
  Very relatable. You sort of... Do you think, do you feel like you pigeonholed yourself into this, this version of Ellie on social media, this sort of a-
17. EMEllie Middleton
  Mm-hmm
18. KBKat Brown
  ... neurodivergent advocate, and is that... Is there a gap between that person and who you really are?
19. EMEllie Middleton
  I think so. I think it is that. I think a lot of people actually, um, like, because there's so many people getting diagnosed at the moment, I think, and because, like, the neurodivergent community is so active now online, I do think that a lot of people go through that stage of, like, it feels like unmasking, but it's actually just a different type of masking almost, of like, "Ah, this is the new people that I can please, and this is the new, like, box that I can put myself into." It's a box that's more like me, but it's still a box, and I think I'm almost, like, it seems like going backwards to, like, who I was pre-diagnosis, but it's actually just that I, like, went in the wrong direction almost. Like, I think there are so many of my, like, interests and, like, I love going to the football, I love going to gigs.
20. KBKat Brown
  Mm.
21. EMEllie Middleton
  I love, like, all of those things, which I sort of stopped being interested, or, like, thinking that was interesting. So I was like, "Oh, I can't enjoy going to the football 'cause it's loud and it's busy."
22. KBKat Brown
  Mm.
23. EMEllie Middleton
  "And I can't enjoy going to gigs 'cause it's overstimulating," all that stuff. I'm like, "No, I do. I did enjoy all that stuff." It was hard for me, and it was overwhelming, but I still do love it. So I do think there's almost, like, yeah, a bit of a renavigation, um, of like, yeah, what, which was... what was unmasking and what was just-
24. KBKat Brown
  Mm
25. EMEllie Middleton
  ... like, picking up a new mask on the way.
26. KBKat Brown
  Oh, it's a constant-
27. EMEllie Middleton
  [laughs]
28. KBKat Brown
  ... like, tug of war, I feel, between the, the presentation that comes out in public and on social media against what is inside. Do you relate to that, Stacey?
8:14 – 12:25
Oversharing, vulnerability, and posting with boundaries
1. SDStacey Duguid
  Oh, massively, yeah. I was, um, I think maybe one of the first women to write about ADHD in a newspaper. Um, I wrote an article three, four years ago in The Sunday Times Style. Um, my therapist of five years suggested one day, rather politely, "Perhaps you are bipolar." And I was like, "Perhaps I should leave." I stood up, left. Went back the next week. I said, "I really did not appreciate that, thank you very much. But do you think I am?" Anyway, she sent me off to the psychiatrist, I got diagnosed, and then I wrote about it, in that cl- in the absolute, absolute thing that I would always do, which is bare my soul, guts and all-
2. EMEllie Middleton
  Mm
3. SDStacey Duguid
  ... and be so vulnerable and share it with the world. But to your point, not when I was in the deep dark, you know, hidden away hole, but when I'd sort of crawled up maybe, like, three ladder, three steps of the 10-step ladder, and I, I poke my head up and I go, "Right, I can write about this now." And then I became fodder, and then it was, like, self-perpetuating, so then I had to continue writing about it. And it was almost like, can I outdo myself? Now I was writing about ADHD and dating. I've got a column in The Telegraph. [laughs] Woo.
4. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
5. SDStacey Duguid
  Yay. I'm like, "Yo, um, all I do is go home and make bolognese for my two children, but no, I'm now on TopofWarehouse.com and have 25 different dating apps. Now I'm a, this kind of, this character. All right, cool."
6. EMEllie Middleton
  Mm.
7. SDStacey Duguid
  So what's happened recently is I've discovered... And listen, I, I'm not angry about it, but I've discovered recently that friends, well meaning, have sort of said, "Is Stacey okay?" Or the things that I write, which are not for them, by the way, they're for us, "Is she okay? Do you think she's all right? Should we check in on her?" Well meaning, but ever so slightly gossipy. I don't know. So I stopped talking, and I didn't post anything, and I thought, "Okay, I'm not gonna do this anymore. I'm not gonna do this." And I wrote this book, and it, it's made me very vulnerable, and I just shut down like a little crab, and I decided I was going to do, do fashion. I'm just gonna be fabulous. [laughs] That's another mask. I spent years doing that at Elle Magazine, racking up credit card debts and things that I couldn't afford, Miu Miu dresses, not from Vinted.
8. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
9. SDStacey Duguid
  That was another mask. Anyway, my point of this is that on Saturday, I was talking at this divorce conference, and at the end, this, the, you know, the host, she said, "Does anyone have a question for Stacey?" And four women stood up, and they cried about my book. So then I was like, "What am I doing hiding away?" Um, I was hiding away because I felt like I'd been punished for speaking about things that friends don't wanna see or hear. And so my next post is gonna take on this imposter, and probably come up with another character.
10. EMEllie Middleton
  [laughs]
11. SDStacey Duguid
  Um, and I'm gonna post that this is not for you. If you don't wanna hear this-
12. EMEllie Middleton
  Mm
13. SDStacey Duguid
  ... bye.
14. EMEllie Middleton
  Mm.
15. SDStacey Duguid
  If you know me and love me, but you don't wanna hear this bit, bye, this is not for you. And actually Saturday, oh, it's been four days, so I have been reflecting and not, trying not to be impulsive about just posting it straight away.
16. KBKat Brown
  Mm.
17. SDStacey Duguid
  I've been reflecting upon whether this is a good idea, and I've decided it is, so I'm going to just front face this and go, "Right, so I am used to, you are used to me sharing everything, and I haven't been doing that. I'm going to do sharing with boundaries, and I'm, and if you're following me and you don't like this, you find it uncomfortable, ciao."
18. KBKat Brown
  I'm not even sure what is oversharing anymore.
19. SDStacey Duguid
  Mm.
20. KBKat Brown
  I feel like sometimes oversharing is, you know, perhaps talking when you are really, really, really unwell-
21. SDStacey Duguid
  Vulnerable, yeah
22. KBKat Brown
  ... and vulnerable, and not doing it with an eye to your own safety-
23. SDStacey Duguid
  Yes
24. KBKat Brown
  ... and the safety of the people listening to you, and then we get into trauma dumping and all that sort of stuff.
25. SDStacey Duguid
  Mm.
26. KBKat Brown
  Um, but also sometimes it is just sharing a story-
27. SDStacey Duguid
  Yeah
28. KBKat Brown
  ... because at the heart of it, there is a universal truth. Like, I started off as an arts journalist. Like, I never thought I'd write about mental health or ADHD or infertility or any of these sorts of things, but I did because- That's what you do, I think, as a writer-
12:25 – 15:44
One-lane social media pressures and being pigeonholed
1. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah
2. KBKat Brown
  ... as a communicator, as, as a performer. Like, anybody who wants to ... You're trying to connect with people, and not just find your place in the world through it, but be a part of that tapestry that's helped you in all those sorts of different ways. But something that I found really challenging about perhaps the social media world that we're in, is that, um, it, uh ... You're only really successful if you're in one silo, if you're in one lane, which, as ADHD people-
3. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Impossible
4. KBKat Brown
  ... is just categorically not it.
5. APAlex Partridge
  Mm. [laughs]
6. KBKat Brown
  And I found that, I found that quite difficult, 'cause the month after my ADHD book came out, my infertility book came out, due to some insane scheduling.
7. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Right.
8. KBKat Brown
  And then obviously, that really confused people who were here because of ADHD Chatter. Um, and, and then I just panicked, because I was like, "I know that in order to make my book a success, I need to only post ADHD things-
9. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Ugh
10. KBKat Brown
  ... for the rest of my life."
11. APAlex Partridge
  Mm.
12. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Gosh. [laughs]
13. KBKat Brown
  And also, do the thing that you can't do, which is go, "Here's how I can change your life in 15 seconds."
14. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Mm.
15. KBKat Brown
  And it's like, "I can't, babe."
16. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
17. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah.
18. KBKat Brown
  "I can't sell." So I've just shared nothing.
19. SKShappi Khorsandi
  That's-
20. KBKat Brown
  And so I've just gone ... I live on stories now, because I'm like ... I, I, like, I haven't got a thing-
21. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Because you're almost like a statement-
22. KBKat Brown
  ... helpful for you, because it's panic.
23. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Panic.
24. APAlex Partridge
  Yeah. Mm.
25. KBKat Brown
  And actually, Alex, I'm really interested in, in this for you as well, because you've got your beautiful podcast, wonderful, wonderful people-
26. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah
27. KBKat Brown
  ... who've been on the podcast, some of whom are obviously around the table. But how are you coping with like, "I am ADHD now. ADHD is all I am, Alex."
28. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
29. KBKat Brown
  A for Alex and A for ADHD.
30. APAlex Partridge
  Yeah. Well, I've certainly, uh, pigeonholed myself, but intentionally.
15:44 – 25:22
Imposter syndrome in comedy, and replacing apology with self-acceptance
1. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Well, it's ... Imposter syndrome is a, is, is something that when, when I found a name for it, or when people talked about it, I was like, "Oh, right, is that what it is?"
2. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
3. SKShappi Khorsandi
  But I kind of railed against it as well, because, um, you know, as a stand-up comedian who is a woman and not white, it was, like, against all expectations. So I felt quite resentful of the term imposter syndrome as well, because I had to just really, really feel like I'm in this green room with all these men-
4. KBKat Brown
  Yeah
5. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... we're all, you know, going on the same stage. I feel like an absolute n- like ... I feel like a shoe in a, in a cupboard of frogs. Do you know what I mean? Like, don't belong there, but, like, doggedly staying there, despite the fact that so much of it was just sheer anxiety.
6. KBKat Brown
  Mm.
7. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Um, and you know, going to schmooze and meetings and just messing it all up. Like, meeting, like, really powerful people-
8. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
9. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... in the comedy industry, and deciding what I was gonna tell them was how I'd died on my ass last week-
10. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
11. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... and you should have seen it. I walked off to the sound of my own footsteps. I'm such an idiot, ha, ha, ha.
12. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
13. SKShappi Khorsandi
  And think, "Oh, that's really great, 'cause I made them laugh." It's like, no, what you did was just batter yourself into the ground in front of people.
14. KBKat Brown
  Yes.
15. SKShappi Khorsandi
  And there are ... I mean, I was somewhere last night that was terrifying, but I just had such a great time, and I went home with the phone numbers of really powerful people in my phone.
16. KBKat Brown
  Mm.
17. SKShappi Khorsandi
  I was like, "I can do it now." And some people go, "Oh, well, that's age." No, it's not age.
18. KBKat Brown
  What is it?
19. SKShappi Khorsandi
  It's, it's understanding myself-
20. KBKat Brown
  Yes
21. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... and accepting myself, and not being apologetic for the way my brain is sometimes. I will forget a name. I won't forget a single thing someone told me, but if I have to introduce you to someone, very likely I'll forget your name. Things like that that I felt shame around. Or I'm on stage last night hosting something, and somebody, uh, had a Russian name, which for my dyslexia, no matter how many times I look at it and memorize it, in the moment with the lights and all the people-
22. KBKat Brown
  Mm
23. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... I'm very likely to really mess it up. And I, and I owned it, and confidently went, "How horrific to have a name to read out that's won this wonderful award, and unfortunately, my dyslexia making these letters swim, so I'm gonna just ask my friend over here," and I gave my microphone to someone.
24. KBKat Brown
  That's so brilliant.
25. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
26. SKShappi Khorsandi
  And they did it, and I was like, "This is me-
27. KBKat Brown
  Yeah
28. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... no longer apologizing for my brain and who I am, because I have other qualities." And I'm doing a psychotherapy course, as in training to be one, and I rely so much on my- ... fellow classmates for a lot of the admin stuff, and my tutor said, and I had a lot of shame around it. My tutor said, "Yeah, but you give things." I was like, "Do I? Oh, yeah, I do."
29. KBKat Brown
  Mm.
30. SKShappi Khorsandi
  I'm not just this little taker. But one of the things I found, um, after doing your podcast was first out, the sheer amount of people that wrote to me afterwards.
25:22 – 31:20
Leaving early, ‘Irish exits,’ and managing the social battery at parties
1. APAlex Partridge
  Do you, are you able to g- 'Cause I, I often just leave parties. I'm trying to get better at it now, but I often just leave without saying goodbye, like you mentioned when you left that job.
2. KBKat Brown
  Mm.
3. APAlex Partridge
  But the consequence of that is, is, like, the, the anxiety that comes the next day of people thinking that I was rude. D- I, I think we mentioned this on our recording.
4. EMEllie Middleton
  We spoke about it last time, I think, yeah. Of like, I get in, I think, like, um, in the clip, I think I could say, like, the glitch almost. I think. I don't know if someone put that in the comments.
5. APAlex Partridge
  Mm.
6. EMEllie Middleton
  But it's like you're going, you're going, you're going. And then suddenly you go, "Oh, no, I'm empty. My brain's gone."
7. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah.
8. EMEllie Middleton
  And then it's like-
9. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Oh
10. EMEllie Middleton
  ... the trying to think about, "Okay, like, who do I need to say bye to? How do I say bye? And h- how do I-
11. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah
12. EMEllie Middleton
  ... explain that I'm fine, I'm just out of charge, I just need to go?" And then, yeah, you end up either just, like, sitting there. You can't leave, 'cause you don't wanna say bye, so you're just either there-
13. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah
14. EMEllie Middleton
  ... awkward, not saying bye, or you just end up leaving and then-
15. APAlex Partridge
  Mm
16. EMEllie Middleton
  ... feeling awkward the next day that you didn't say bye to anybody.
17. SKShappi Khorsandi
  But then-
18. KBKat Brown
  Also-
19. SKShappi Khorsandi
  The, the thing, uh, the thing about that as well, 'cause I, I'm like you in that since I've found out about ADHD and understood myself-
20. KBKat Brown
  Mm-hmm
21. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... I'm not the last one to leave parties, I'm often the first. And again, with not drinking as well, I just, like, really cherish that sobriety of, like, climbing into my bed knowing I'm gonna wake up in the morning and not feel like hitting myself.
22. KBKat Brown
  Mm.
23. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Um, but with that feeling of people thinking I'm rude, I say goodbye to the host. And if people think I'm rude, it's a their problem, as my son would say. That's a them issue. And last night I was at this event, and some people that I absolutely adored, I went to find them and they'd gone. And I thought, "Oh, I don't think they're rude, I think they're tired."
24. KBKat Brown
  They just needed to go.
25. EMEllie Middleton
  Yeah.
26. SKShappi Khorsandi
  And I, and then I thought, "How m- how much do people actually think I'm rude or give it a second thought?"
27. KBKat Brown
  Yeah.
28. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Um, than me being so terrified of this, I don't know, what's the catastrophe if someone does think I'm rude?
29. KBKat Brown
  Yeah.
30. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Um, learning that nothing's personal-
31:20 – 36:21
Spontaneity vs anxiety: coping, consequences, and sobriety in social life
1. APAlex Partridge
  How did you all feel today knowing that you were coming to a room full of neurodivergents? What was the pre-recording feeling? Anxious or excitement?
2. EMEllie Middleton
  Yeah, I think more excitement. I think more, um ... I actually think I felt more relaxed for it being in a group rather than, like, a one-on-one podcast 'cause it's like, well, I can dip in and out as-
3. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Mm
4. EMEllie Middleton
  ... and when. It's not like that I have to be on-
5. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Mm
6. EMEllie Middleton
  ... mode the whole time.
7. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Hey, I noticed that I didn't ask you who else was gonna be here. You just said, "Are you free on this day to do this?" And I was like, "Yeah." And I think I messaged you going, "Have you noticed I didn't ask?"
8. APAlex Partridge
  Yes, you did.
9. SKShappi Khorsandi
  And, and I'd never have noticed that before. I would've just gone scramble. But I thought, "Oh, I love that I don't ask," because I have ADHD, and whoever's there, I'm gonna roll with it-
10. EMEllie Middleton
  Exactly
11. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... because that's what I'm, I'm good at. That's my forte is rolling with it. And I was really, yeah, I was really happy.
12. EMEllie Middleton
  Mm.
13. SKShappi Khorsandi
  I've, I have, I've not been disappointed. [laughs]
14. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
15. EMEllie Middleton
  Merci.
16. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
17. KBKat Brown
  I think the spontaneity of it is really lovely.
18. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah.
19. KBKat Brown
  And that's not something we necessarily get to do, uh, when you have to think about content creation or events-
20. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Mm
21. KBKat Brown
  ... or, or writing or, I don't know, st- then organizing just being a person and everything else like that. And I think that's just been a real joy is being able to come and not have to worry about the, the points that you want to get across or-
22. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah
23. KBKat Brown
  ... this real, I mean, information. Thinking about the anxiety though, I saw this really interesting, uh, report of a study from a week or so ago. I've obviously immediately forgotten the name of the person who did it. Um, it was a woman leading the study, I think. But saying that actually one of the ways that people can sort of keep a lot of their more, like, chaotic octopus, um, ADHD traits in, in, in check, if you like, is just through chronic anxiety.
24. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Mm.
25. KBKat Brown
  Um, perfectionism.
26. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Mm.
27. KBKat Brown
  The making sure that you've done everything three times. When we were thinking about parties, I was like, "Oh, yes, I'd, I'd always write a thank you letter afterwards," partly 'cause I love stationery.
28. SKShappi Khorsandi
  [laughs]
29. KBKat Brown
  I really love it. Um, and but also because it's-
30. EMEllie Middleton
  Amazing you posted it.
36:21 – 43:07
Intrusive escape fantasies, fear vs anxiety, and using curiosity to prevent panic
1. KBKat Brown
  Do you ever get sort of these big intrusive thoughts, uh, hoping some disaster will happen in o- that will get you out of an event that you're anxious about?
2. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah. I remember going, um, being in cars, going to comedy clubs out of town when I was newer, and always having been so terrified of the fact that I was gonna go on stage and make people laugh or not. I never knew whether or I was gonna die or smash it. Now I'm so much more emotionally regulated around it, right? And I used to just, like, be in a car and just go, "Just a little gentle little smash."
3. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
4. SKShappi Khorsandi
  [laughs]
5. APAlex Partridge
  Yes.
6. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah. No, I just have to know that anything bad will actually happen, but it will just get me out of it. No one's gonna, no one's gonna die. Yeah. But what a, an excuse no one can argue with. Had a crash, bit of whiplash.
7. APAlex Partridge
  Yeah.
8. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Instead of saying, "Actually, this is really overwhelming for me. How..." I don't... When I look back on it, I just think, "How on earth?" But now I'm fine. Now I love it. Now I really enjoy it. Everyone would say to you, the older comics would, the, the more experienced comics would go, "Just enjoy it." How?
9. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
10. SKShappi Khorsandi
  [laughs] Because I can't enjoy being in my own skin-
11. APAlex Partridge
  Mm
12. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... let alone being in my skin in front of strangers. But it was like, um-
13. APAlex Partridge
  It's one of the bravest thing to do, I think.
14. SKShappi Khorsandi
  It's... No, it's mad. It's like bungee jumping-
15. APAlex Partridge
  Mm-hmm
16. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... or jumping out of an airplane or snowboarding when you can't snowboard. It's, uh, you don't know if you're gonna die or not.
17. APAlex Partridge
  It's a top-
18. SKShappi Khorsandi
  It's that thrill.
19. APAlex Partridge
  It comes up time and time again on the podcast. It's that separation, that distinction between anxiety, which is just like, "Oh, that's scary. I don't wanna do that," between the internal genuine fear, which can often cause a shutdown.
20. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah.
21. APAlex Partridge
  And that when... it's in those moments when, you know, I, I do a lot of public speaking and I'm driving to a gig or whatever, and some of them really makes me shut down to the point where I'm in my car thinking, "I want to have a car crash," 'cause that would give me a legitimate excuse to then tell the event that I'm going to. That's the insanity of it.
22. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Well, I have a trick for you. So I didn't answer the question of how I felt coming here. So when I used to have panic attacks at work, very silently, which are actually really, really terrible. So you're seated at a table like this. I was always fine talking to, you know, just, like, doing some, you know, a talk or whatever, but at a table in a boardroom having to present to bosses and things, my... I could... It would always start in my palms of my hands, and then I could feel the top lip go. I thought, "Here we go. Here we go. Here we go." And someone once said, "If you feel curiosity, you can't feel fear."
23. APAlex Partridge
  Mm.
24. SKShappi Khorsandi
  So when I came here, I, I, I approached it with pure curiosity about all of you, and it's true. They cannot exist at the same time. You cannot feel-
25. APAlex Partridge
  Mm
26. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... curious and fearful at the same time, but you really do, so you're doing that. I, you know, did a little whatever, and then I have to keep bringing myself back to curiosity.
27. APAlex Partridge
  Mm-hmm.
28. SKShappi Khorsandi
  So if it's somebody I was, um, intimidated by, I would look at them and think, "I wonder why they chose to wear that today," it to myself.
29. APAlex Partridge
  Is this my mom?
30. SKShappi Khorsandi
  [laughs] As... [laughs] Yeah.
43:07 – 46:19
‘Phoenixes in the flames’: thriving in crisis, struggling with small tasks
1. KBKat Brown
  I think sometimes it's almost ... I think we're sort of phoenixes almost, where we're like giant legendary birds-
2. SDStacey Duguid
  [laughs]
3. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
4. KBKat Brown
  ... obviously some more giant than others, but who thrive in the flames. But it's when, it's when there aren't any flames, and you just have to go around your birdie business-
5. SDStacey Duguid
  [laughs]
6. KBKat Brown
  ... that that becomes really difficult.
7. APAlex Partridge
  We're halfway through the episode now, and I know what you're all thinking. "Where the hell is the midway sponsor we've all been patiently waiting for, Alex?" Well, thank you for reminding me. A word from our sponsor, Stasis. I talk to a lot of my fellow ADHD friends that take the prescribed stimulants like Adderall or Vyvanse, and they always say the same thing, that the afternoon energy crashes, sleep interruptions, and irritability these meds cause can really deter them from enjoying the benefits that these stimulants provide. So much so, that it makes them question taking them altogether. A close entrepreneurial friend of mine even came off meds entirely because he was literally and figuratively tired from the negative effects associated with these stimulants, until I urged him to try Stasis, which helped him, in his own words, correct his natural chemical balance, in turn helping with deeper sleep, even out his energy levels, and promoting a calmer mood. Well, I'm happy to let you know that with Stasis you don't have to choose anymore. Stasis is the first of its kind supplement that you take with your stimulant. It contains naturally derived vitamins, minerals, adaptogens, and antioxidants that level out the less desirable effects of stimulants, so you can take it without suffering from the downsides. It's been precision formulated to target the root causes of those downsides by regulating dopamine levels, warding off cortisol spikes, and targeting oxidative stress, all with ingredients that come straight from nature. Less brain fog, less jitters, increased focus, more sustained energy throughout the day, and less stress. If you take stimulants, why wouldn't you boost your brain health with Stasis? ADHD Chatter listeners can get 20% off with the link in the description. Try it for yourself. And maybe I'm biased, but there is one other proven way to relieve stress, and that's by carrying on watching the episode.
8. KBKat Brown
  I, I, I never feel more in the moment than when there is a genuine honest to God crisis-
9. SDStacey Duguid
  Yeah
10. KBKat Brown
  ... usually involving somebody who's injured, or somebody who needs help, or a purpose, or something.
11. SDStacey Duguid
  Yeah.
12. KBKat Brown
  It's like my brain just suddenly goes-
13. SDStacey Duguid
  Yeah
14. KBKat Brown
  ... completely quiet, focusing on the job at hand.
15. SDStacey Duguid
  Yeah.
16. KBKat Brown
  The amount of time that I can drive myself into a frothing state of frenzy because I have one tiny thing to do on my Google Task list, and I don't want to do it, or I can't start it.
17. SDStacey Duguid
  Mm-hmm.
18. KBKat Brown
  I had to read a flipping book last weekend. The meal that I made of that. I mean, I, I knew that I would do it eventually, and that was-
19. SDStacey Duguid
  Mm-hmm
20. KBKat Brown
  ... and this is where the difference is now. This is the acceptance thing again.
21. SDStacey Duguid
  Mm-hmm.
22. KBKat Brown
  I know that whatever I have to do, I'm going to do, and that sort of helps in a way. It's just sometimes the, the pilot light for starting the, the little tasks that, you know, aren't noble or aren't filled with purpose. They're just like, "Do your admin for your taxes. Read this book for tomorrow."
23. SDStacey Duguid
  Yeah.
46:19 – 54:18
Attention to detail spirals: unread emails, mismatched gigs, and improvised survival
1. KBKat Brown
  All those sorts of ... "Read your emails-
2. APAlex Partridge
  Mm
3. KBKat Brown
  ... properly from the start to the end, as opposed to just-"
4. SDStacey Duguid
  Skipping a little
5. KBKat Brown
  ... "the first three paragraphs at the beginning."
6. SDStacey Duguid
  [laughs]
7. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Well, the ... Not, not reading emails is how I've ended up going to Norway and doing a panel discussion about democracy-
8. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
9. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
10. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... 'cause I thought it was a comedy panel show. I didn't read anything else. And also, I've lost money because I don't read emails. Once I was offered ... I don't do any influencer stuff, but af- after I was on I'm a Celebrity, I got offered 10,000 pounds, um, for one post-
11. APAlex Partridge
  Ooh
12. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... about trainers. I was like, "10 grand for one post about trainers?" That's all I read. I didn't read that it was a pelvic floor trainer.
13. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
14. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
15. SKShappi Khorsandi
  I was assuming running trainers.
16. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
17. SKShappi Khorsandi
  So my agent said, "Well, they're, they're in the post to you." And this pelvic floor trainer turned up, and I thought it'd just been sent to me in error. I was asking my neighbors if anyone had a, a package that had gone astray. So I opened it, and, and it was a pelvic floor trainer. So I put a silly post up saying, "Oh, wow, um, at least I won't piss myself when I, when I jump." And the company phoned my agent-
18. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
19. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
20. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... and said, "Uh, we're not paying you that money."
21. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
22. SKShappi Khorsandi
  "Can you get her to take it down?"
23. KBKat Brown
  Oh, funny.
24. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah, 10 grand I lost.
25. SDStacey Duguid
  Oh, my goodness.
26. KBKat Brown
  And, uh, did the trainers go with an outfit?
27. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Well, the-
28. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
29. SKShappi Khorsandi
  But that's right. It really sort of says how I saw myself and how the industry saw me. 'Cause I thought, "Oh, yeah, it's because I'm like a middle-aged mum that still runs half marathons."
30. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
54:18 – 1:03:25
Shared community themes: ‘hard mode,’ identity, and taking responsibility after diagnosis
1. APAlex Partridge
  What do you think are the most common themes? And I suppose it'd be interesting to ask you, Ellie, um, 'cause the work you do, speaking to many people and many neurodivergent people, what do you think are the most common themes that come up amongst the community?
2. KBKat Brown
  Oof. I think a lot, I think a lot of shared experiences. I think, um, for a lot of people it is that always feeling like the alien, and then suddenly realizing that they're not the odd one out.
3. APAlex Partridge
  Mm.
4. KBKat Brown
  And then always, yeah, feeling different and not really knowing why. Um, and I think that thing of just, like, always feeling like life is so difficult, I think that, um, it's like you're always doing everything on hard mode all the time. I think that's a-
5. SDStacey Duguid
  Hard mode
6. EMEllie Middleton
  Yeah.
7. SDStacey Duguid
  Mm-hmm.
8. EMEllie Middleton
  Yeah. So I think that's like something that I ... I think that's what I get really frustrated with as well, is like, um, some days it's just like I just wish that I could have one day where everything would run smoothly. Like, I just wish everything wasn't so difficult all of the time. Like, the simplest things take up so much effort-
9. SDStacey Duguid
  Mm
10. EMEllie Middleton
  ... and so much brain space.
11. SDStacey Duguid
  Yeah.
12. EMEllie Middleton
  Um, and I think that's something that a lot of people, um, sort of like resonate with. Um, yeah, I don't know. I think there's so many different things. I think another thing is like that there's so many different parts of people's experience that they don't even realize are like related to ADHD or related to neurodivergence or related to autism. They just think that that's like a them thing-
13. SDStacey Duguid
  Mm
14. EMEllie Middleton
  ... or it's their experience, and it's like actually so many people have so many shared experiences that are all, like, sort of like related to being ADHD in some way, um, that they've just like never tied it to that. They've just always thought it was like a them thing.
15. SDStacey Duguid
  Yeah, like, oh, they're, they're stupid, they're not good enough.
16. EMEllie Middleton
  Yeah.
17. SDStacey Duguid
  They're clumsy old me, daft me. It's like bringing my dog here today. I didn't figure that out. So I had to get the dog ... I was driving from Margate, um, and then I was with actually someone I've just started dating, and you know, that's kind of ... Not only did he see me without my eyebrows, but, um, I was like, "Now I've got to explain to him that I've got to go to this podcast, but I'm quite sure that the restaurant won't let the dog in. But where does the dog go?" So he went home, and then he came back for me, and he is meeting me with the dog.
18. KBKat Brown
  Good man.
19. SDStacey Duguid
  Can I tell you what that caused me? It caused me to go through Woolwich, where I've never been, to f- cross like a practically a dual carriageway in Celine high-heeled boots, Phoebe Philo, not him-
20. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
21. SDStacey Duguid
  ... um, get into the station, really like confused 'cause it looks like a spaceship, get off at the wrong stop, and then just like, just this whole catalog of disasters because I hadn't thought through how am I gonna get the dog to someone else. And then he sorted it out for me. I had to go drop the dog, then he dropped the dog. The dog- dog- dog's fine. I'm gonna meet him at 3:00 at Victoria. It's now half 3:00, right? Okay, fine. But I f- I apologized for it because when I was married, I would do things like that all the time, not with a dog, but you know, replace that with a child, replace that with ... And I would just go, "I can't tell him. Oh, my God."
22. KBKat Brown
  Mm.
23. SDStacey Duguid
  You know? Had, had it been the olden days, well, I wouldn't be on this podcast, but had it been the olden days, the dog would be smuggled down my blazer.
24. EMEllie Middleton
  [laughs]
25. SDStacey Duguid
  And I'd have ... You know, I'm pregnant. It's wrong.
26. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
27. EMEllie Middleton
  But these, in a situation like that, I always think, "Well, th- surely they're on top of it. They would've said if it's dramatic and purple." And that's a mistake I always make-
28. SDStacey Duguid
  Mm
29. EMEllie Middleton
  ... is I assume that other people are on top of my things. So for example, I'm in, um, touring in Winchester this weekend, right? And I had said to my tour manager about six weeks ago that that's my old uni town. I think I might stay the night there. Uh, yeah, and long story short, I'm not staying the night there. I wanna come home. But because he's an organized person, he'd already booked the hotel room, and I was like, "Well, of course he did because that's what I told him. He's not gonna get, say to himself, 'Yes, but it's Shappi, and in six weeks she'll have changed her mind 17 times about staying the night.'"
30. SDStacey Duguid
  Yeah.
1:03:25 – 1:09:29
Social media nuance, ‘learned helplessness,’ and stepping away from being ‘one thing’
1. APAlex Partridge
  Do you think that ADHD-
2. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... present it sometimes
3. APAlex Partridge
  ... do you think ADHD content on social media will be more policed and enforced in a way that, regulated? Because there is a lot of, like you alluded to, uh, content that infantilizes.
4. SKShappi Khorsandi
  I've, I've got to correct. What, I, I'm really worried that what I said about infantilizing has come out wrong. I meant the whole of social media can sometimes bring out... And I, and I, I wonder if I'm just picking a minority of people that have irritated me, um, when discussion is just... I meant it in the context of social media-
5. KBKat Brown
  Overall
6. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... everything. When people are having political discussions-
7. KBKat Brown
  Right
8. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... there is no layered, uh, uh-
9. EMEllie Middleton
  It's, like an ability-
10. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... element
11. EMEllie Middleton
  ... to have nuance, I think-
12. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Yeah
13. EMEllie Middleton
  ... 'cause it's, everything's in a 60-second segment.
14. SKShappi Khorsandi
  That, I, yeah-
15. EMEllie Middleton
  Yeah
16. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... that's what I meant. It, it, the nuance isn't there, so it's like, "Ah, so you're that, and you're that. You are the sum total of this comment that I have chosen to take this way." That's what I meant about infantilizes, because then it's just de... It just stops conversation. It stops, um, curiosity.
17. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
18. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Do you know what? I think I've just... I'm, I'm really thinking about, um, Twitter, um, rest in peace. With the ADHD #I'veLostMyKeys and people making content-
19. KBKat Brown
  Mm
20. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... I look at that and I think, "Well, that was bound to happen."
21. KBKat Brown
  Mm-hmm.
22. SKShappi Khorsandi
  That's bound to happen, but the people, like with everything, when people say to me, "Oh, God, everyone thinks they've got ADHD now."
23. KBKat Brown
  Yeah.
24. SKShappi Khorsandi
  I think, do they, though? And also, the people who are struggling w- will be seeing between the cracks of all of that stuff, I hope. And if you know, you know in yourself, um, that y- it's not just about losing keys. And some of those, those things, I think, like with a lot of other things on the internet, we end up giving the things that kind of irritate us the most, the most-
25. KBKat Brown
  Volume
26. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... concen-
27. APAlex Partridge
  Mm
28. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... concentration-
29. EMEllie Middleton
  Hear
30. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... the most volume. And that's across the board-
1:09:29 – 1:17:29
Recent ADHD moments and practical ‘life hacks’: sleep, breathing, body doubling, and friendships
1. APAlex Partridge
  Does anyone have any funny stories about how their ADHD has shown up recently?
2. KBKat Brown
  Oh, yes. Uh, so today we're filming in a beautiful restaurant in SoHo, so I just assumed, I was like, well, it's bold to have a podcast in which we're all eating. I mean, that'll be a sensory disaster for an ADHD audience.
3. SKShappi Khorsandi
  [laughs]
4. KBKat Brown
  But I was so excited about coming to the restaurant that I didn't have any breakfast, and I didn't have any lunch, and I then had to ask Alex to get me a bread basket-
5. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
6. KBKat Brown
  ... so that I didn't actually pass out, because my husband tells me that if I basically have not had lunch or anything, it's like watching a plane in free fall, and sort of like happy, happy, hap- oh, God. Awful.
7. SKShappi Khorsandi
  [laughs]
8. KBKat Brown
  But yeah, delicious bread basket, Alex. Thanks so much.
9. APAlex Partridge
  Oh, good. My RSD is, like, I've left you all starving, and I feel terrible. [laughs]
10. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Oh, no. [laughs]
11. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
12. EMEllie Middleton
  I didn't bring pajamas with me on my trip to London, so I'm pajamaless for the ... And I always forget something really important. Um, but it's always-
13. APAlex Partridge
  Well, you've got-
14. EMEllie Middleton
  ... pajamas at the moment
15. APAlex Partridge
  ... good heating, 'cause it's freezing as well.
16. EMEllie Middleton
  Well, I just-
17. SKShappi Khorsandi
  I know
18. EMEllie Middleton
  ... slept in, like, a baggy T-shirt.
19. SKShappi Khorsandi
  I tell you what I did. This is quite an ADHD thing, where my, um, my daughter's teacher, um, there was something about she hadn't covered her books properly or something. Just something so silly she came home with. And I wrote an unnecessarily long email-
20. KBKat Brown
  [laughs]
21. SKShappi Khorsandi
  ... to the entire school staff, everyone from, like, the receptionist, to all her form teachers and the head teacher, describing rejection sensitivity dysphoria in such detail, like, unnecessarily so. Like, I forgot I was doing it. I forgot where I was. I thought I was writing a chapter of a book. It was so long. And saying that when sometimes if she gets teary, it's not because she's sad. So it's not, if you console someone who is crying immediately, often that can feel that, um, you're asking them to stop crying, and invalidate. So I went ... And there, ping, sent it off, and they sent a little message back saying, "Thank you. Um, we actually have no worries about her at all," and then left it at that. And I went, yeah, I went into hyperfocus with that email.
22. APAlex Partridge
  Mm.
23. SKShappi Khorsandi
  And that's okay. They might think I'm a little bit of a weirdo. They don't get me. That's okay. I think that is something that's changed hugely in me, is, "You think I'm a weirdo."
24. KBKat Brown
  That's, that sums it up, actually.
25. APAlex Partridge
  Mm.
26. KBKat Brown
  I spent my entire life trying to hide the fact that I was 6 foot 1, not a model size, ginger, had broken all my teeth in a horrible bike accident, was really nerdy, just to try and, like, pass off as a human being.
27. SKShappi Khorsandi
  Oh.
28. KBKat Brown
  And the idea of, like, now ... Sorry. Uh, my tiny violin will be out shortly.
29. APAlex Partridge
  [laughs]
30. KBKat Brown
  But the idea that I can now just be like, "Yeah, but I am a bit weird, and that's fine."

Episode duration: 1:17:29

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Cold open: quick ADHD anecdotes and roundtable setup

What they’ve learned since their episodes: ADHD as part of a bigger life picture

Dual lives and “ADHD expert” masking: public persona vs private reality

Oversharing, vulnerability, and posting with boundaries

One-lane social media pressures and being pigeonholed

Imposter syndrome in comedy, and replacing apology with self-acceptance

Leaving early, ‘Irish exits,’ and managing the social battery at parties

Spontaneity vs anxiety: coping, consequences, and sobriety in social life

Intrusive escape fantasies, fear vs anxiety, and using curiosity to prevent panic

‘Phoenixes in the flames’: thriving in crisis, struggling with small tasks

Attention to detail spirals: unread emails, mismatched gigs, and improvised survival

Shared community themes: ‘hard mode,’ identity, and taking responsibility after diagnosis

Social media nuance, ‘learned helplessness,’ and stepping away from being ‘one thing’

Recent ADHD moments and practical ‘life hacks’: sleep, breathing, body doubling, and friendships

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