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5 Signs You're A High-Masking Autistic With ADHD (AuDHD Expert Explains)

In this episode, I sit down with award-winning psychiatrist Dr Asif Bachlani to explore what it really feels like to live with both ADHD and autism. We uncover 5 hidden signs of masking AuDHD, the contradictions that can make life feel exhausting, the loneliness of feeling different, and the emotional impact of receiving a diagnosis later in life. Dr Asif also shares the assessment he’ll never forget, and the true cost of spending years hiding who you really are. Chapters: 00:00 Trailer 01:56 Why Dr Asif Bachlani Dedicated His Life to ADHD & Autism 04:22 The Patient Who Changed Everything for Dr Asif 07:02 What Neurodivergent People Can Teach Us About Being Human 08:39 The Sentence Dr Asif Hears After Almost Every Diagnosis 12:58 The Hidden Grief of a Late ADHD or Autism Diagnosis 16:47 The Contradictions of Living With AuDHD 21:04 What People With AuDHD Fear Being Judged For 24:52 Is Masking a Choice — or Does It Happen Automatically? 27:05 The AuDHD Assessment Dr Asif Will Never Forget 36:43 Why AuDHD Can Feel So Incredibly Lonely 41:21 Tiimo 43:05 Sign #1 You’re Masking AuDHD 45:40 Sign #2 You’re Masking AuDHD 48:19 Sign #3 You’re Masking AuDHD 50:25 Sign #4 You’re Masking AuDHD 53:29 The True Cost of Never Unmasking 01:02:11 Sign #5 You’re Masking AuDHD 01:02:54 Washing Machine of Woes: Your Questions Answered 01:05:24 A Letter to My Younger Self Get 30% off an annual Tiimo subscription 👉 https://www.tiimoapp.com/offers/adhdchatter Buy Alex's book entitled 'Now It All Makes Sense' 👉 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-All-Makes-Sense-Diagnosis/dp/1399817817 Order Alex’s book about Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria 👉 https://linktr.ee/adhdchatter?utm_source=linktree_profile_share&ltsid=9ffd8709-06df-444c-9936-c136fbd14d6e Producer: Timon Woodward  Recorded by: Hamlin Studios Trailer editor: Ryan Faber DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Asif BachlaniguestAlex Partridgehost
Aug 24, 20261h 7mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:56

    Trailer

    1. AB

      I've always described ADHD as like a social butterfly. So you get super interested in somebody new, it's novel, it's interesting, so you're all in, and then somebody else new comes along, so you float from the original person to this new person. With autism, you have a few friends, but it's incredibly close, and you might have had them for a very long time, and you feel very comfortable with them. Then something happens, it's a bit of a disagreement, a misperception of things, and that's really confusing.

    2. AP

      Can it be possible for someone to be in a crowded room and still feel exceptionally lonely?

    3. AB

      Absolutely. Self-modulating, reigning in your usual behaviors in order to fit in. And although you're around people you like, perhaps even people that love you, you don't feel like you can be your true self.

    4. AP

      What do you think people are scared of being judged for?

    5. AB

      It's a mixture of things. So it is-

    6. AP

      Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Dr. Asif, welcome to the ADHD Chatter studio.

    7. AB

      Thank you very much. It's a real honor to be here.

    8. AP

      I'm so excited about this episode, How to Spot Masking in Autistic, ADHD, and AuDHD Individuals. There's four boxes in front of us. Each one has within it a sign that someone is masking, and there's also a, a fifth sign, and a visual representation of that fifth sign is hidden somewhere in the studio around us, and we're gonna come back to that at the end. But before we dive in, Dr. Asif, uh, you're a consultant psychiatrist. You've spent years assessing and supporting individuals with ADHD and autism,

  2. 1:56 – 4:22

    Why Dr Asif Bachlani Dedicated His Life to ADHD & Autism

    1. AP

      but what made you dedicate your career to people whose struggles are so often misunderstood?

    2. AB

      It's a really good question, and I think for me, getting involved as being a psychiatrist was having a genuine interest in people. Um, I like their stories. I like to understand where they come from. And I remember when I was a medical student, a particular patient I was fortunate enough to sit in with, um, didn't have ADHD or autism, but it really struck me, her experience, and I thought, actually, if I'd gone through that experience, I would have the same thing. So the, the scenario was, was she worked in a betting shop, um, in East London, um, and in essence, somebody came in to rob her-

    3. AP

      Wow

    4. AB

      ... um, or rob the shop-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. AB

      ... and, and obviously had a weapon. And she was speaking to the psychiatrist and describing what I lea- later learned was PTSD symptoms. And I think there's always that perception, isn't there, that people with mental health problems can be weak or there's a flaw or... And, and that's obviously very old-fashioned and, and, and not the kind of prevailing understanding of it. But I thought, actually, if that was me and I was working behind that counter, that could happen to me, and I could have PTSD. And that really normalized the whole experience around mental health for me, and I thought, actually, anyone can have this with the kind of different circumstances. And so that got me really interested in psychiatry. With ADHD and autism, um, it was something I kind of fell into. And, and obviously I've subsequently been diagnosed-

    7. AP

      Yes

    8. AB

      ... with ADHD myself, and so perhaps I always liked ADHD and autism, but I just didn't know it at the time, and I was just fortunate enough to be trained by my organization in ADHD and autism. And again, that, it was almost like a light bulb moment that patients that I was seeing on a regular basis, people that didn't quite fit what we were taught or what was in the textbook, suddenly it was a revelation that they could have ADHD or autism. At that point in time, there wasn't really an understanding that ADHD and autism could be together.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. AB

      Um, so it's either you had ADHD or autism, and again, of course, we've evolved. But even that understanding was a real revelation for me, and it became so interesting to learn about their experiences, what they've struggled with, um, what they fi- what they can do really well, and I really wanted to help them on that journey.

    11. AP

      Incredible story.

  3. 4:22 – 7:02

    The Patient Who Changed Everything for Dr Asif

    1. AP

      Was there a particular moment that stands out, one that perhaps changed how you think or understand ADHD and autism?

    2. AB

      Yeah, a- a- absolutely. I mean, there's a couple of people I, I think about. Um, one is a, uh, teacher that I was treating who had a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Um, and what I struggled with was he seemed to get really well very quickly on low doses of medication, and what we've subsequently learnt, or he's subsequently got diagnosed with autism, was that we know that actually those kind of serious mental illnesses don't always present in the classical way. And actually, what we're taught is people with kind of severe mental illnesses, be it bipolar or schizophrenia, often they can't function in a day-to-day life. Yes, not always, but sometimes. Whereas this chap was really high functioning, was a teacher. And again, you might not think, how does teacher and autism fit?

    3. AP

      Yes.

    4. AB

      Because you want that predictability and routine.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. AB

      But he-- And actually he was a, he was an, uh, what I would call a locum teacher, so a supply teacher.

    7. AP

      Sure.

    8. AB

      And I was like, "I don't know how that fits," but it just really worked for his internal rules. But obviously when he became unwell, he became unwell, but he recovered really quickly, and that made me think, well, actually, these kind of neurodevelopmental conditions can really just change people's outlooks, presentations, recovery journeys. So that's really stuck in my head because it, it, it made me think that actually there's probably a lot more people with ADHD or autism within services.

    9. AP

      Yes.

    10. AB

      I mean, there is a... More recently, there was a study, um, from Sweden, um, where they looked at their kind of general adult population within the clinic, and they, um, used a screening tool for autism and found twenty percent of their population that they were looking after or serving, whatever the right word is, um, actually had autism, but they didn't know about it.

    11. AP

      Wow.

    12. AB

      So I think, um- On one level, that's really helpful because you want to make sure you're treating the whole person and not just the condition or particular disease. Um, but, um, on another hand, I think it was probably a bit of a revelation to them because, um, they just didn't know that. Um, it, it can also mean for some people with ADHD and autism, they're much more likely to have a secondary condition. So it, it's very much comorbidity, having a second condition is, is very much the norm.

    13. AP

      That's huge. That's unbelievable. It's so interesting sat opposite a psychiatrist and so many people, the ADHD Chatter listeners, are looking for answers to their own identity questions, and so many people come to psychiatrists to figure th- themselves out. But if I flip that question around,

  4. 7:02 – 8:39

    What Neurodivergent People Can Teach Us About Being Human

    1. AP

      after all of these years, what have neurodivergent people taught you about being human?

    2. AB

      I mean, it's so invaluable. It makes me think about, uh, that Forrest Gump saying about-

    3. AP

      Yes

    4. AB

      ... there's, there's, there's something like there's different chocolates-

    5. AP

      Yes. Yeah, yeah

    6. AB

      ... or, you know, varieties of spice of life.

    7. AP

      That's it, yeah.

    8. AB

      Um, so for me, it's, it's taught me that, you know, people are different. Um, I, I think different makes it interesting.

    9. AP

      Yes.

    10. AB

      Um, and you know, again, and perhaps in the past we would've said different means bad, but I, I don't think it's as simplistic as that. I, I think actually variety is the spice of life. Um, people can be incredibly creative, incredibly organized, incredibly detail focused, and for me, it's taught me that there's a place for everyone. Um, and, and I know people don't often like the fact of talking about neurodiversity or being neurodivergent is as a superpower, but I think it, it teaches me that there's a place for everyone.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. AB

      You've just got to find your right place, and sometimes that's easy, and that takes weeks, months. For other people, it can take a really long time, but once you find your right place, you can certainly thrive.

    13. AP

      Yes, absolutely. Gosh, there's a lot to unpack. It's so fascinating. Y- y- I, I'm always interested when someone perhaps goes through many, many years, decades sometimes, with- without answers, and they are living with thoughts inside their own heads. They tell themselves horrible things. Why can't I just-

    14. AB

      Just do that

    15. AP

      ... yeah, keep that relationship going? Why can't I just stick at that job? Why can't I not buy a domain and not get bored of that hobby after two weeks?

  5. 8:39 – 12:58

    The Sentence Dr Asif Hears After Almost Every Diagnosis

    1. AP

      When someone finally gets a diagnosis, whether it be autism, ADHD, or both, is there a common sentence that you hear people say?

    2. AB

      For sure. Um, and that makes so much sense, or the other one that people often talk about is, "I've always felt different."

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. AB

      "I've, I've never really felt like I fit in. Um, I've always felt like slightly on the outskirts of people." And it gives people a framework or an understanding about who they are and, and why they are who they are. Um, a- and you can... Because of the way that society is, so society's built around neurotypical people, yes?

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. AB

      So, so again, what, what we're starting to learn is that perhaps a neurodiverse, neurodivergent population's about 20%, but the world's built for the 80%, yes? So you can feel like a square peg in a round hole, but I always think to myself, "Well, why is it a round hole? Why can't we have different sized holes that fits everyone?" So I think it, it gives people an opportunity to say, "Look, you can accept who you are. As with anything in life, there will be things that you're good at, things that you're less good at, and actually we want to kind of focus on what you're good at, on, and, and what you enjoy. And, and again, if we can find something for you with that, then again, you can thrive."

    7. AP

      Absolutely. And all of the items on the shelves behind yourself and I represent a, a part of the neurodivergent experience and what you were just explaining, it, it perfectly encapsulates the, the toy behind you to your right, which is the, the many holes in it and lots of-

    8. AB

      Oh, yes, yes, yes

    9. AP

      ... different sized objects trying to-

    10. AB

      Yes

    11. AP

      ... perhaps squeeze through a-

    12. AB

      Yes

    13. AP

      ... a hole that wasn't-

    14. AB

      Yeah

    15. AP

      ... designed for them. Is this, does that explain why so many neurodivergent people grow up truly believing that how they are and how they present is part of the human experience?

    16. AB

      For sure. Um, and again, we get these messages all the way through our lives, um, from early childhood, through our schooling, in our adulthood, maybe even relationships in the workplace. So we're constantly getting the message that maybe we're not doing something right, or this, why is this so hard for you? Or why have you reacted in this way? And, and actually you're making a mountain out of a molehill. And so the constant messaging that's coming back to you is, "You're not fitting the mold."

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. AB

      But who defines that mold, yes?

    19. AP

      Right. Yes.

    20. AB

      Actually, society defines that mold.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. AB

      And I think we're in a really progressive space where we're starting to accept and recognize differences. Um, but they're getting those messages from a, from a young age. Hopefully, that's changing and, and, and for this new generation that's growing up, that'll be less problematic, but they're getting those messages all the way through their life, so you then modulate their behavior, which ends up being called masking, doesn't it? That you're modulating your behavior in order to fit the mold that society puts, tries to put us in. So again, square peg, round hole.

    23. AP

      Yes. Wow. It's like living a life with a, an instruction manual, but one that wasn't written for you-

    24. AB

      Yes

    25. AP

      ... perhaps.

    26. AB

      Yeah. I sometimes, I mean, maybe it's not the best analogy in the world, and I love analogies, so I'm gonna bore you-

    27. AP

      Sure. [laughs]

    28. AB

      ... Alex, with analogies, but I sometimes say to people, "It's a bit like everyone's playing football, but you're playing rugby."

    29. AP

      Wow. Yes.

    30. AB

      Yeah. So, uh, for me, I quite like those visual analogies 'cause, A, it makes sense for me, and I wouldn't say I'm necessarily the most cleverest person in the world, so I want to keep it as simple as I can. So again, if we, if we take that analogy and, and pick it apart, it is a game with a ball. You play in a team. There are rules, but the rules are different, yes? And so if you're playing rugby and everyone else is playing football, sometimes that can go hand in hand because, you know, there's goals and, and, and tries or whatever. But on other hands, you're not supposed to pick up the ball or you're supposed to use your foot. So that's where those differences can, can misalign.

  6. 12:58 – 16:47

    The Hidden Grief of a Late ADHD or Autism Diagnosis

    1. AP

      Do you think that's why a late diagnosis can be so emotional for many?

    2. AB

      Absolutely. Absolutely, because you, you, in essence, you felt like the square peg in a round hole all your life, and again, metaphorically and probably taking the analogy a bit too far, but you've tried to bang-

    3. AP

      Yes [laughs]

    4. AB

      ... your, your screw into that hole and it, it doesn't fit and it, and, and it's tough. And so you're constantly getting messages that, you know, what you're doing isn't right. You're too emotional. Why, you know, why can you not manage a busy pub and y- you want to go to a quiet place because of the sensory overload? So that can be incredibly damaging, and so you get a mixed range of emotions, yes? You get anything from relief and validation to even grief because you're thinking, "Well, I've lived all of these years, decades of my life thinking there's something wrong with me. Why can't I do this?"

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. AB

      Um, there must be something wrong with me, versus actually you just have a differing, different operating model-

    7. AP

      Yes

    8. AB

      ... to everyone else. And, and again, does that mean your operating model is wrong and theirs one is right? No, it's just different.

    9. AP

      Yes. Gosh, and the compounding effects, the consequence of that bombardment of extra criticisms can make you feel very vulnerable to criticism-

    10. AB

      Absolutely

    11. AP

      ... when you're older.

    12. AB

      Absolutely, and, and so y- that can be very damaging to self-esteem. It's not uncommon for people then to present with anxiety or depression and PTS- PTSD, and again, what, what do we know? We know that it's much more common in the neurodivergent population to have anxiety and depression. So actually, some of my patients, they've come and said to me, "You know, I've got anxiety," or, "I've got depression. I've been on antidepressants. In fact, I've been on loads of antidepressants. None of them have worked. I know something's not right, and I'm being told by my GP or by another psychiatrist I've got anxiety, depression-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. AB

      ... but I just don't feel that it fits." And when you start doing those kind of screenings and assessments, you then realize actually they've just seen the tip of the iceberg, which is the anxiety and depression, but what's driving everything else is the neurodiversity underneath.

    15. AP

      Yes.

    16. AB

      And actually, sometimes when you treat the neurodiversity or support the individual with neurodiversity, the anxiety and depression goes away.

    17. AP

      Yes. I've spoken to so many people, particularly women, it seems, that the anxiety is often, like, one of the primary-

    18. AB

      Yes, absolutely

    19. AP

      ... manifestations, and they go to care-

    20. AB

      Yeah

    21. AP

      ... explaining that they are crippled with anxiety, and then they're perhaps diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, and this completely perhaps delays an ADHD or an autism diagnosis.

    22. AB

      Absolutely, because again, you're treating what you see in front of... And we've all done it. I've done it, yes? So I'm not saying that I'm anything special or different to anyone else. We often treat what's in front of us.

    23. AP

      Sure.

    24. AB

      Yes? Until we get that knowledge. So again, if I think back to when I was training, before I'd been trained in ADHD and autism, I'd absolutely missed it, yes? And so the solution is, which again is easy to say, is that we have to increase the general medical or clinical workforce's understanding of anxiety and depression. And I, I think podcasts like yourselves, um, kind of perhaps is where social media is quite helpful, is people's understanding of autism and, and ADHD are-

    25. AP

      Mm

    26. AB

      ... is better, so they can go to professionals and say, "Well, actually, I know that I come across as anxious or depressed, but actually that doesn't quite fit who I am, and I'm, I'm not anxious and depressed all of the time. It's, I'm only anxious and depressed in certain situations or certain points of, points of time." And again, that may not fit classical anxiety and depression, and it may be an underlying, underlying, um, ADHD and autism. And again, we know these things are becoming increasingly common, yes? So up to 20% of people have some sort of neurodiversity.

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. AB

      So that basically means if you know more than five people, one of those people is neurodiverse.

    29. AP

      Yes. Yeah. That's so interesting. I really want to unpack this even further. I wanna get a little bit geeky for a second. We're getting closer to unboxing the five signs that someone is masking without even knowing it, but before we get there, I wanna just talk about

  7. 16:47 – 21:04

    The Contradictions of Living With AuDHD

    1. AP

      AuDHD for a moment, and that's the dual diagnosis of ADHD and autism and perhaps the contradiction of AuDHD that nobody talks about. On the one hand, I suppose your ADHD side of your brain can crave novelty, but the autism side of your brain perhaps craves predictability. How is it possible for one brain to experience both of these happening simultaneously?

    2. AB

      Yeah, and it doesn't really seem to make sense, doesn't it?

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. AB

      How, how can that happen? Um, so in essence, it's the kind of neurological, the pathways within, within your brain that are somewhat similar but also different. So again, in my mind, I think about it in two different ways. It's having two operating systems. So again, if we talk about that, in the modern world, one part of your brain, Apple, another part of your brain, Android.

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. AB

      Yes, and in essence, they're doing the same thing, but they don't work exactly the same. Um, so I have an Apple phone, for example, but I really struggle if I have to go on an Android 'cause it doesn't work the same way. And so that can be a way that you can see ADHD and autism. They are trying to almost do similar things, but not obviously exactly the same thing, and it feels like this push-pull factor. Another way of looking at it is, uh, and I, as I said, I love, love analogies, is the car analogy. So you could look at it as saying ADHD is like putting your foot on the accelerator. You want to look at that exciting new stuff, do something new, this novelty, new situation, whereas the autism side of you says, "Hold on, hold on. I don't like new things."

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. AB

      "Uh, I, I like predictability and routines. I'm gonna brake."

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. AB

      So different parts of your life or different situations, you can have more foot on the gas- And more foot on the brake. But if you're doing both at the same time, then you kind of feel like you're a bit stuck.

    11. AP

      Yes.

    12. AB

      You're not going anywhere, and that's where it ends up being-- it can be tricky and confusing and difficult for you as the individual and then people around you as well.

    13. AP

      Mm. Just expanding on the, the Windows or the Android versus Mac analogy. If we moved the cursor over a folder called AuDHD Contradictions, and we double-clicked on it, and we went into that, what does it actually feel like to live with those contradictions?

    14. AB

      Again, it can feel so confusing, difficult to you as the individual and, and again, people around you. And, and you, you can have different situations. So you can have a situation where your ADHD side of you really likes new things, um, likes, uh, things that are stimulating, things that are exciting, uh, you know, really focuses down on things that interest you. So you might say something like, coming on a podcast, that's really exciting.

    15. AP

      Yes.

    16. AB

      And, um, it will kinda give you an adrenaline buzz or dopamine buzz. But then your autism side or if you had autistic traits, uh, like me, then says, "Hold on, hold on, but I like predictability. Uh, it's not safe. Uh, being at home is more comfortable. Do I really want to go out and do those sort of things?" So again, you have those kind of push-pull factors, so that's the brake-accelerator situation. Um, Dr. Khurram Siddique, who you've had on before, would talk about it in a different language. He'd use order versus anarchy.

    17. AP

      Yes.

    18. AB

      Um, a-and it's about what you want. So a different example might be a holiday. So at home, you've fully organized your holiday, you know exactly what you're doing minute by minute, hour by hour on the holiday, and you get there, and your ADHD side says, "Oh, that's a bit boring. I don't wanna do that."

    19. AP

      [laughs]

    20. AB

      So you throw out the whole script and go and do something different.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. AB

      And that's where the two sides of your brain... So it, it depends on where you're at, how anxious you feel, what's going on. Is it a comfortable environment? Is it not a comfortable environment?

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. AB

      Is the lights too strong? Is the noise too much? So it can flick in between, and then we have different presentations.

    25. AP

      Mm.

    26. AB

      So we have people who are AuDHD and maybe ADHD-dominant. We have people who have AuDHD and might be autism-dominant, and then we have people who are variable, who flick between the two.

    27. AP

      Yes. I laughed in the middle of that 'cause I'm going on holiday tomorrow [laughs] to France, and I, I have meticulously planned day by day this particular itinerary. But yeah, last night, I, I saw an advert for this show in Paris, and I was like, "Oh, I wanna go see that," but I've already planned it, so I don't... I'll, I'm, I'm sure my impulsivity will squeeze it in. [laughs] So interesting. So I've spoken to many people with ADHD, autism or AuDHD, and one thing they tell me is that they're terrified of being judged.

  8. 21:04 – 24:52

    What People With AuDHD Fear Being Judged For

    1. AP

      What do you think people are scared of being judged for?

    2. AB

      It's difficult because you have been given multiple messages through your life about what you're doing or what you're saying or how you're behaving may not be right or it doesn't fit into the social norm. So then what you then do as a kind of protective, adaptive mechanism is mask. Yes?

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. AB

      Um, and so what you're really worried about is, does the person like me for who I am or does people like me for the mask that I'm wearing? Um, and so what they're worried about is if they reveal their true self or even parts of themselves, are they really gonna be liked? And actually, the person liking them, is it because of their masked self, and is that why I've got friends or why I'm popular or I get along with my family versus actually, um, they don't really like the real me? Or if I start talking about, um, I can't go to this pub or restaurant 'cause I find it too noisy or the lights are too bright, and actually, am I being difficult or awkward, or do I overreact? Am I having to modulate or kind of hone in my behaviors?

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. AB

      Um, so really what we're worried about is being judged and perceived for who perhaps we really are.

    7. AP

      What do you think they're scared people will see? I know you said what, who they really are, but, it, it, can we zoom in on that a little bit? Inside the person's head, what do you think they're scared someone will actually see if the mask slips?

    8. AB

      So I, I think it's a mixture of things. So it is perhaps they don't come across as competent or capable as they, as they kind of come across.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. AB

      So a classic example is, um, people with ADHD struggle with organization, losing things and forgetting things. Now, you might put mechanisms into place that in, say, in a work setting, you are really good at what you do, yes? But there's a lot of work that's done underneath the surface.

    11. AP

      Yeah.

    12. AB

      So that's kind of that iceberg metaphor, that what you see at the front is somebody who is doing really well, very organized, you know, doesn't-- is not late for meetings, is, doesn't miss things. But what you might not see is that they don't go to the toilet, they don't drink enough. Uh, they're, they're putting in so much compensatory behavior to manage that, that by the end of the day, they're burnt out or tired.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. AB

      Um, I think the other thing is, is that maybe, you know, they're worried that they can come across as too much or too difficult, yeah? So meaning, am I talking too much? Am I talking not enough? Am I giving enough eye contact? Am I staring at people? Oh my God, was that joke appropriate or was that inappropriate? They didn't laugh. Oh, was my joke not funny? Are they gonna think... You know, all sorts of things. So I think we're constantly second-guessing, trying to interpret, modulate, uh, modify our behaviors, because ultimately, we want to feel that we're a good human being and that we have a place in society.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. AB

      But we're often getting messages that actually we don't quite fit or we don't have a place in society. But I think that's obviously changing, but that's what we've often, especially if you're my, my age, in my late 40s, that you've got those messages throughout your life.

    17. AP

      Yes. I, uh, so fascinating. I feel like a, a simple conversation in the workplace maybe or the playground or even with your partner, for some, that can be a fleeting moment. But for someone with ADHD or autism perhaps, it, it can linger for, for many hours- ... days longer. You're ruminating. Like, "They stopped asking follow-up questions. They thought I was too much. They didn't laugh at that joke I made," or, "There was an awkward shuffle with their feet."

    18. AB

      Yes.

    19. AP

      And you sort of focus in on everything, and you internalize it to think that that person didn't like you, and then that ruminates and, and, and it can be exhausting.

  9. 24:52 – 27:05

    Is Masking a Choice — or Does It Happen Automatically?

    1. AP

      Do you think masking is a conscious decision? Like, is it something you physically or mentally know that you're doing in the moment?

    2. AB

      I think it's a mixture of both. I think it can be over the years that you've learnt that behavior, so it's like learning a new skill, yes? That initially it feels artificial or it feels like it's a very active process, and that can especially be sort of in childhood. But as it becomes part of your day-to-day life, as you grow up, as you become into an adult, then it becomes routine, so it can almost be subconscious. So again, another analogy for you, it's a bit like when you first learn how to drive. So when you're a kid and you're getting that kind of feedback that maybe, you know, what you're doing or what you're saying or, or, for example, your stimming behavior isn't socially acceptable, you then actively try to change that behavior. So it's, it's, you're having to learn it on, on the job-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. AB

      ... as it were. But as you become an adult, you become more experienced, more comfortable with it. Um, it's maybe not what you want to do, but you're certainly getting more comfortable, then it becomes automatic. So it's almost, it's not even in your kind of s- conscious brain. It's just done subconsciously.

    5. AP

      Mm. Yes. Eye contact, I think for me, was, was a big realization of a sort of subconscious mask-

    6. AB

      Yes

    7. AP

      ... that I had adopted. I guess as, as a child, you, you observe human behavior. You, you see the, what's ac- accepted by the world, what's criticized. If you don't make good eye contact as a, as a child, or with me, certainly, you get told off.

    8. AB

      Yeah.

    9. AP

      You get called rude.

    10. AB

      Yeah.

    11. AP

      Whereas you can either have my perfect eye contact or my undivided attention, but you can very rarely have both, and I think that was a huge realization of how much I was forcing myself to make eye contact with someone. And actually, as a consequence, I had no capacity to actually take in what they were saying, and then therefore, when it's my turn to speak, I often didn't know what to say, and then I thought I came across as, as, as weird as a consequence. How many people do you think you've assessed for autism and ADHD?

    12. AB

      Uh, it's a really good question. So I've been doing this for coming up to about four- 14 or 15 years. So kind of rough ballpark figure, I would say somewhere between 3 to 5,000 people.

    13. AP

      Wow. Okay, so a lot.

  10. 27:05 – 36:43

    The AuDHD Assessment Dr Asif Will Never Forget

    1. AP

      And obviously, without identifying anyone, is there a particular assessment that stayed with you forever?

    2. AB

      There was actually a f- two that I wanted to mention. Um, uh, and actually, it was l- linked to a, a recent article that came out in the press, uh, last week, uh, which I a- at least saw, um, in the news, which was around Asians, so obviously my community, being sort of three to four times less being diagnosed with ADHD and autism. So there's a chap who is almost the same age as me, Asian, um, who came with depression and anxiety and, and, and similarly to somebody else that I've described, said that that doesn't quite fit me, and it, um... there's something else going on, and we eventually diagnosed him with ADHD and autism. And the reason that it kind of stuck out in my mind is, as I said, roughly the same age as me, um, lives in a place that I used to work, um, en- really enjoys his work, but finds it incredibly difficult, um, being around different people. A- and one of the things that he has is this incredibly strong sense of right and wrong-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. AB

      ... that kind of moral justice. And so when he sees something that doesn't quite work or it doesn't quite fit, um, the usual processes or the processes that are supposed to be followed, he will rightly point that out. Unfortunately, it hasn't been received very well, and actually, one of the things that was driving his depression and anxiety was that actually there was a grievance against him. And I guess it really resonated with me because he's doing something he loves, uh, he's good at his job, but he also then points out things that are not following the systems-

    5. AP

      Sure

    6. AB

      ... that, that, that perhaps they're supposed to, and it's about those unwritten rules rather, rather than those written rules.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. AB

      And then there was a, a, a young lady who was at uni, um, and again, that we diagnosed with ADHD and autism, again, um, from the South Asian community, and again, very bright, um, going to be a scientist, um, gonna be really successful at what she does, but it's the lack of understanding from the people around her, uh, about what's going on for her. So there's often a mismatch between what you do outwardly and what's going on internally.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. AB

      And they're both, in my, in my way anyway, in, in my opinion, good at what they do or s- or outwardly successful at what they do, but the internal mechanisms, what's going on inside them, is very different than what's, like, presented externally, and that mismatch, um, that perhaps lack of understanding from the people around them, has caused the problems for them.

    11. AP

      Sure. Wow. Yeah, that's fascinating. The, the, the justice sensitivity piece is so relatable. I was in a coffee shop recently, and someone just walked in. I was queuing up to get a coffee, and that person walked in, and they just went straight to the front of the queue and ordered their coffee and got served, and with complete disregard to the queue, and they picked up the coffee and walked out. And no one said anything, but it really stayed with me for hours. I was like, "How dare they just, just violate this social rule that everyone else is following?" Do you think a particular ... sensitivity to justice, is that a innate part of being ADHD autistic, or is it a consequence of living your life and feeling like you have to stick to the rules because you've been made to feel different?

    12. AB

      I think it's a bit of both. I think we have been, as I mentioned before, squashed into this hole that we don't quite fit into, so then we are kind of repeatedly, from different, um, people, family, friends, colleagues, told that, "Well, you need to follow the rules," these unwritten rules that somehow everyone else knows about, but we don't know about. And then when other people don't feel they follow those rules, there can be a really strong sense of, "Well, that's not really fair. Why am I expected to follow the rules, but they're not?"

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. AB

      Um, and no one says anything to them, as, uh, as your example in the, in the coffee shop, but I think we feel it very intently. Um, and I've often described it as a kind of burning feeling. Uh, I sometimes have got that, you know, when, uh, you're sitting in a kind of a conversation or a classroom or something, and you, you feel like you know the answer to it, but maybe your autistic side is making you feel anxious, so you don't say anything.

    15. AP

      Yes.

    16. AB

      But you, you knew the answer.

    17. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    18. AB

      Uh, so you've got this fi- strange feeling that you've got this burning sensation that you know the answer, and you want to say it, but you haven't got the confidence to say it, so you keep it quiet, and that, and that's really difficult, uncomfortable discomfort feeling can last for many hours.

    19. AP

      Mm.

    20. AB

      And for everyone else, it's not a big deal.

    21. AP

      Yes, or if, if you're in a meeting, and the, the boss or... they're putting a problem to the group, and you've got this really, really good idea, but you're too anxious in that environment to say it, and then someone else shouts out an answer that you deep down know isn't quite as good as yours. And the boss says, "That's brilliant," and they run with that, and you're thinking, "Why didn't I just say it?"

    22. AB

      Say it, yeah.

    23. AP

      A big piece of feedback I've heard from the community is that they, at least they feel like they're a bad friend to people that are around them, and as a consequence of that, sometimes they can leave friendships that are actually quite dear to them and that they truly value. But for many reasons that I think we should go into, they don't feel safe in that friendship. Why might someone abandon a friendship that they deep down do truly care about?

    24. AB

      And again, that feels that, that kind of push/pull factor of that doesn't really make sense, so I think it can be a lots of different reasons. Um, one is obviously they've been masking, um, and so they're not presenting their true self, and then they worry that if they don't mask or take the mask off completely, maybe the other person, um, won't like them as much, or they'll reject them. Um, you can feel, I guess, even with people that you get along with or people that you like, you can still feel like a stranger because the way that you think, the way that you process is not a neurotypical way of doing that. And again, even though you like your friends, and you might have some shared interests, you still feel otherly or, or, or different. And then there's the classical one, um, that I, I often do, which is somebody texts you, and you look at it, and you think, "Okay, that's interesting, but actually it's not urgent, and I don't need to deal with it now, and if I deal with that now, I'm not gonna finish the piece of work that I'm doing over here." So then you don't respond, and then days become weeks, weeks become months, and you're suddenly thinking, "Oh my God, this is gonna be so awkward that I have to text this person back, but I haven't texted them for months. Will they think I'm just ghosting them?"

    25. AP

      Mm.

    26. AB

      "Or why am I te..." So then that becomes really awkward, so then you're starting to think about, well, what's more awkward, texting a friend that you like after months or not texting them at all? And then I think sometimes you do the lesser of two evils, which is not text them at all.

    27. AP

      Yes.

    28. AB

      And then you can kind of-

    29. AP

      Mm

    30. AB

      ... lose that relationship. Um, and again, the autism side can be different, that you can have very intense friendships and, but not very many, and I think that's the one of the differences between ADHD and autism. So I've always described ADHD as a bit like a social butterfly, so you get super interested in somebody new, exciting, somebody that shares your interest. Um, it's novel. It's, it's interesting, so you're all in, meeting up all of the time, texting all of the time, and then somebody else new comes along, and they're also interesting. So you float from the original person to this new person, and it's not that you don't wanna be friends with that person, the first person. It's just that this new person is way more interesting at this moment in time.

  11. 36:43 – 41:21

    Why AuDHD Can Feel So Incredibly Lonely

    1. AP

      Can that, over time, within the autistic person's brain or ADHD person's brain, can that create a unique experience of loneliness?

    2. AB

      For sure, because you end up having a pattern, don't you, of you make- you could make friends easily. So people with ADHD tend to make friends easily. Yeah, so you make friends easily, but one of the things that is so effort- uh, requires a lot of effort and seems so difficult is sustaining and maintaining those relationships.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. AB

      Because it's that novelty interest, uh, newness, um, that it's exciting, but it's hard to maintain that over time. And then you have the kind of what you might call that executive dysfunction, which is it's hard to respond to messages. Responding to messages feels like a mountain you're trying to, to, um, climb up, that you're forgetful or, um, you, you know, may not remember to respond to this message in, in a, in a good amount of time. Um, so for sure it can be incredibly difficult and sometimes that means that actually you find your own tribe, um, and you're naturally drawn to people who are neurodiverse-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. AB

      ... because some of these unwritten rules you don't need to explain because they're often having the same sort of experiences. So you can be awkward or geeky together, and that's okay.

    7. AP

      Yes.

    8. AB

      You can talk a lot about a particular interest and get really into it and then not say anything at all for a couple of minutes, and that's also okay. But perhaps when you're around neurotypicals, you feel like you have to explain or even apologize why you're doing one thing or another thing.

    9. AP

      Mm. Just zooming in on the topic of loneliness for a moment, 'cause I feel like that's such a, a point of struggle for many of the listeners. If someone doesn't unmask and they feel like to be around people, they have to put on this character that they believe is called normal, can it be possible for someone to be in a crowded room and still feel exceptionally lonely?

    10. AB

      Absolutely. Um, for sure. I mean, again, you might be surrounded by people that you get along with, that you like, that you share some interests, but what you're feeling is you're hiding your authentic true self-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. AB

      ... and that you can't really fully be you, and you're kind of self-modulating, reigning in your usual behaviors or your kind of your, what you would see as part of your personality in order to fit in. So again, although you're around people that you like, uh, perhaps even people that love you, you don't feel like you can be your true self.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. AB

      And, and you're kind of worried about talking too much, not talking enough, um, maintaining eye contact, not having enough eye contact, um, overreacting, uh, interrupting people. Um, i- for ADHD people, it, it can be just getting up and walking around during the conversation. Uh, for autistic people or people with autistic traits, it may be that you need a certain degree of predictability, so you need to have learnt scripts or you've learnt small talk-

    15. AP

      Yes

    16. AB

      ... in order to manage these situations. So it feels like you're having to again adapt in order to fit in with this-

    17. AP

      Mm

    18. AB

      ... with- within this broader crowd.

    19. AP

      So is loneliness really about being alone or is it about never feeling understood?

    20. AB

      Yeah. So I think that's very true actually. It... And it's a, it's a, it's a good nuanced point, which is it's not really around how many people you've got around you, it is more about do people really understand you? Do they maybe not share the way that you think, but understand where you're coming from, and that you can be your true authentic self, um, and that you can share that interest in Harry Potter or comic books or trains or particular TV programs and not feel like you're weird or you're that weird kid or that weird adult. So really what you're looking for is connection and understanding, not necessarily that you want people to think like you-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. AB

      ... but you just want to understand that we think differently or are wired differently and we might come to different conclusions, and that's okay. But I think that's the variety, uh, in life. I, I've grown up in a household where one of our popular sayings in our household is, "Not all five fingers are the same," because if they were the same, you couldn't make a fist.

    23. AP

      Yes.

    24. AB

      And so for me, that is a variety is a spice of life situation, that actually it is really helpful that we're different sizes or different lengths or opposable or non-opposable because actually we all have a role to play.

    25. AP

      Yes. Uh, such good, such good visual.

  12. 41:21 – 43:05

    Tiimo

    1. AP

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  13. 43:05 – 45:40

    Sign #1 You’re Masking AuDHD

    1. AP

      The first sign of masking is you believe that everyone else experiences the world in the same way that you do.

    2. AB

      And I think that's actually not that surprising, because I don't think we talk about the way that we think. Yes, we don't openly talk to people about, "This is the way that I'm thinking." We presume that everyone's got the same rule book, and that the way that we think is just the way that everyone else thinks. I think also it's very likely, especially with what we know with genetics, is if you are neurodivergent, um, that a first-degree relative is 30% chance to be neurodivergent. So it's very likely that one of your siblings or a parent is neurodivergent. So then as a household, you're all roughly gonna be thinking the same way. So then you think, "Well, actually, if everyone in my household is thinking the same way, then everyone out there is thinking the same." And, and I guess what we don't realize is you've got one way of thinking, other people have got another way of thinking. And it goes back to that analogy about you're playing rugby, but everyone in your household-

    3. AP

      Yes

    4. AB

      ... is playing rugby, but maybe the rest of the street or the town is playing football.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. AB

      But you just don't realize that connection, um, because actually you just presume the way that I think is the way that everyone else thinks.

    7. AP

      Yes. And if everyone within your family unit behaves in a certain way, and that is considered to be the norm, is it possible for someone to, to perhaps become aware that they might be different to what is typical outside of their family unit? But because it's normal within their family unit, people within that, i.e., their parents, siblings, might just tell them, "No, that's fine, everyone acts like that."

    8. AB

      Absolutely, and I think that's sometimes why neurodiversity gets missed, because actually it's just this is the way that our family does that.

    9. AP

      Yeah.

    10. AB

      And I, and I have this kind of feeling that birds of a feather flock together. So I have certainly found in my friendships that actually most of the people around me are neurodiverse.

    11. AP

      Yes.

    12. AB

      Again, knowingly or unknowingly, and, and over time it's become a realization that most of the people that are close to me are neurodiverse. So then what you end up happening is not only is your immediate family unit, but actually your friendship circle ends up being.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. AB

      So then you're getting two things telling you actually what you're thinking is, you know, the way that everyone thinks. But actually you're thinking in a, a neurodivergent, neurodiverse way, and obviously there's the neurotypical way. So it can be a bit of a shock, and I guess it's the transition, isn't it? So maybe when you go to school or when you go to secondary school or when you get into a job and you suddenly realize that actually not everyone sees the world that you d- you do, because actually your family unit, what you've grown up with is this is the, this is the, the usual way of thinking about things.

    15. AP

      Yes, absolutely. So much to unpack.

  14. 45:40 – 48:19

    Sign #2 You’re Masking AuDHD

    1. AP

      The second sign is you're constantly monitoring yourself, and I guess what I mean by that is, or it certainly is the case with me, is even in the middle of a conversation, I'm, I'm monitoring how I'm speaking, how I'm being perceived. Does the other person think I'm weird? How common do you think that experience is inside someone's own head, to monitor themselves all the time?

    2. AB

      I think it's incredibly common. Um, and, and again, it's, it's that dual processing. So again, it makes me think about that Apple-Android, um, situation. So on one hand, you're focusing on what you're saying, what you're doing. On the other hand, you're thinking, "How is that being received?" And so you've, you've got a kind of a, an internal supervisor inside of your brain.

    3. AP

      Yes.

    4. AB

      So I, I always visualize it as a bit like having a parent or a teacher in your brain saying, again, "Are you talking too much? Are you not talking enough? Are you looking interested? Are you concentrating? Are you blurting things out?" Um, and then, you know, things like, "Is your small talk on point?"

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. AB

      Um, "Has that joke landed?"

    7. AP

      Yes.

    8. AB

      Or, "Is that joke really doesn't fit the conversation that was just being had." So you're constantly, on one hand, thinking about what you're doing, but on the other hand, making sure... You're trying to regulate yourself and say, "Well, actually, is that fitting in with the conversation? And really, am I coming across as weird, or actually am I engaging in the conversation at, in, that might be expected or, or, um, the usual da- usual way of doing your thing?" And that's really exhausting, because you basically got two processes going on at the same time, whereas neurotypicals don't tend to worry about this so much and don't think about these things so in, in depth, in general. Of course, it, everyone varies, but in general that's not, it, I don't, I think they either got Apple or Android, whereas we tend to be running Apple and Android at the same time.

    9. AP

      Yes. That's, it's one of the, the things I get so frustrated about when I hear some people say that people with ADHD or autism, like they just need to try harder. I think there's, they're trying so much harder [laughs] than, than most.

    10. AB

      Yeah.

    11. AP

      Um-

    12. AB

      And I think Ned Halliwell gives a really good example of that, and I, I've sometimes used that with my patients. So what he says, and obviously he's talking about AuDHD, but it could fit with, uh, uh, neurodivergence, neurodiversity, is you wouldn't tell somebody who can't see very well, "Just squint your eyes a bit more."

    13. AP

      Yes.

    14. AB

      Yes? Um, you, what you'd say is they need glasses, yes? So it's really frustrating when you say to somebody, "You just need to concentrate more," or, "Stop fidgeting." It's not as simple as that, because if it was that simple, we'd be doing it-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. AB

      ... anyway, isn't it? And so obviously we need our versions of glasses, yeah? So the adaptations and reasonable adjustments in order to help us, uh, thrive.

    17. AP

      Yes. Gosh, yeah, it makes me sad. Well, the amount of kids that literally got shouted at for not being able to write properly with their left hand. Uh, and of course, you know, awareness grew, and there was a spike in

  15. 48:19 – 50:25

    Sign #3 You’re Masking AuDHD

    1. AP

      left-handedness. The third hidden side of masking, which really follows on from the, the second one, is probably a consequence of all that internal exhaustion, is, is you are exhausted all the time, but you can't explain it.

    2. AB

      Yeah, for sure. For sure. So again, if you've got two operating systems running at the same time, you're basically draining the battery. So a different way of saying, saying as an analogy, it's like having multiple windows open in your phone or multiple tabs on, on, on your laptop, and so what you're doing by having those multiple tabs is all of those tabs are taking battery, yes? So- Making sure that you're saying something sensible and appropriate to the conversation, then checking in with yourself about, "Am I saying what's appropriate or sensible?" Then checking in with yourself, "Am I overreacting?"

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. AB

      Um, "Am I, um, listening? Um, am I giving the right kind of eye contact?" All of those things takes up energy, and so it can be done, and it, and it can be maintained, but it takes up a lot of energy, so you might be able to do it in one domain in your life, so that could be work life, or it could be a personal situation. But once you're spent, then later on in the day or perhaps at home, you're just basically worn out.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. AB

      You've run out your social battery because you've had to work so hard in order to maintain it. A different analogy I sometimes use with people is it's like riding a bicycle in the wrong gear up the hill.

    7. AP

      Ooh, yes.

    8. AB

      Yes? So-

    9. AP

      I can feel that. My [laughs]

    10. AB

      You can definitely do it, yes? And it's not impossible, but you're having to put so much effort in to do the same distance as somebody who is riding on a flat surface in the right gear. Yeah? And once you have that understanding, the framework, maybe some support and treatment, then actually I describe it like putting yourself in the right gear, and then if you think about the amount of effort you put in beforehand, if you put the same amount of effort in, you're absolutely gonna thrive and succeed. But the problem is, you're not in... We, we haven't given people the right structures or support, perhaps early enough, that they are really, really struggling.

    11. AP

      Such a, such a powerful analogy. I never thought of it that way before, an uphill cycle in the wrong gear. Such a powerful analogy.

  16. 50:25 – 53:29

    Sign #4 You’re Masking AuDHD

    1. AP

      Fantastic. The fourth hidden sign of masking, I think this is actually the one that does a lot of damage, you spend your life apologizing for things even when you've done nothing wrong.

    2. AB

      Absolutely.

    3. AP

      How common is that?

    4. AB

      I think that's, again, really common, and, and in fact, I have to do that in my own life. So we're often not perceived to be doing what we're meant to be doing, so if you're chatty and spontaneous and kind of life and soul of the party, when you're not the life and soul of the party, people often presume there's something wrong. So they'll say, "Well, what's going on? Are you not feeling all right?" But actually, what they don't realize is that requires so much effort.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. AB

      And sometimes you just don't have the social battery or, or, or you just maybe don't want to do it on that particular day. So then you apologize for not, not being loud. Then on the other situation, where you're quiet, and people think you're not interacting very much, and you apologize for that. Um, you overreact, under-react, you're apologizing. You sit still, you don't sit still, you're apologizing. So it often feels like whatever you're doing, even if it isn't wrong, you're having to apologize for something-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. AB

      ... because people have a perception of you, society has a perception of you about what you should be doing or what you must be doing, and that's frustrating because actually sometimes you think, "Well, actually," that's where that sense of injustice can come into play as well. "I can't do that. I actually haven't done any of the wrong thing wrong, but I just feel like I have to apologize-"

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. AB

      "... to kind of keep the peace," or you don't want any conflict, so it's easier to say sorry than face the conflict.

    11. AP

      Is there a heartbreaking consequence of apologizing too much? Because if you're the type of person that is saying sorry all of the time, then other people will pick up on that and potentially see you as someone who can be taken advantage of. And if you pair that with your own ability to, say, hyperfocus and, and become friends with someone really quickly, could those two things join together to create someone who is ADHD, autistic, AuDHD, and put them in a very vulnerable position where someone can walk over them or take advantage of them or even, you know, worse?

    12. AB

      Absolutely, and I guess fundamentally, what do we all want? We want to be liked and appreciated for who we are, yes? So you can be drawn to people that maybe aren't the right sort of people for you because you're trying to look for acceptance. So initially, what you're offered is acceptance, yes? And understanding, but it's kind of a superficial, shallow understanding, and really what people have realized is that you ha- have a tendency to apologize or you tend to be a people pleaser, so you're trying really hard to maintain these relationships because you've had bad experiences, and that vulnerability or that desire to fit in, be liked, have friends, can be taken advantage of.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. AB

      Yes. Obviously, your genuine friends won't do that, but some people will do that.

    15. AP

      There is a fifth hidden sign of masking, and actually, there's a visual representation of that sign hidden somewhere in the studio, and we're gonna come back to that just in a moment. But before we

  17. 53:29 – 1:02:11

    The True Cost of Never Unmasking

    1. AP

      get to that, what's the true cost of never unmasking? What happens if someone spends decades, 30, 40 years masked?

    2. AB

      I mean, there can be lots of different consequences on various different levels. So I guess if we talk about long-term relationships or even a partner, I think you can get to the point of thinking to yourself, "Who does the per- who does my partner like? Who does my friends like? Is it my true self, or is it the masked version that I have learnt over the years to kind of present?" So you get incredibly worried that people might not like the real you, um, a- and that's where that fear about rejection or abandonment can come into play. And then you're worried about people judging you, um, and again, the sort of things that we've talked about, which is, um, do I talk too much? Do I n- not talk enough? Am I overreacting? Am I under-reacting? Um, you can also feel, uh, worried about impulsivity coming out. The other thing is, it can make you feel lonely within a relationship because, again, you've only presented a part of you rather than maybe the whole you. So then you're really worried about, again, does the person like what they can see rather than- The whole iceberg rather than just the top of the iceberg, and then that can make you feel lonely

    3. AP

      Mm-hmm

    4. AB

      And obviously, if you feel lonely, then obviously that can lead on to feeling anxious or depressed. Um, ultimately what you're really worried about is people liking you and accepting you for who you are. And then I guess the last aspect is loss of sense, loss of sense of identity. Do you, do you yourself know who you really are? Um, and again, in talking about that analogy about learning how to drive a car versus, you know, driving a car five, 10, 20, 30 years, w- what happens in 30 years? You don't even think about it. So the mask can also just become another layer of who you are, that it's automatic, it's unconscious, and so it's hard to separate who you are from the mask.

    5. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    6. AB

      And I, and I, kind of, like those kind of comic book analogies because you have that in regard to things like, uh, Spider-Man and Batman, and you know that I'm a bit of a comic book geek.

    7. AP

      Yes.

    8. AB

      But who is the real person? So I remember in one of the Batman movies, they end up saying that Batman is their true self, and actually Bruce Wayne is their mask. But actually to the outside world, it's the other way around. And so the mask can be synonymous with who you are, so you yourself don't know who you are.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. AB

      And actually in that clip, I'm showing my inner nerd here, it's somebody else pointing out to Bruce Wayne that actually your Bruce Wayne persona is your mask-

    11. AP

      Right

    12. AB

      ... not the other way around.

    13. AP

      So interesting. But, uh, it, it does beg the question, y- you know, you said in a relationship if you unmask, you're worried that the person might not love you anymore 'cause suddenly you... They have to see who you really are. But it goes on to what you said is, do you know who you really are? And I guess the, the obvious follow-up question to that, 'cause I feel like this is really the main question that almost engulfs the whole podcast is an identity question. It's like, who actually am I under the mask? And I feel like so many people don't truly know that. Is there a way someone can find clues as to who they really are?

    14. AB

      For sure. A- and I guess it depends on how you've learnt how to mask, how long you've been doing it for, and I guess to a certain degree, how comfortable you are. So you can have situations where you can be your true self. So again, if we think about that work-life balance, you might find that you're masking during your work time. But actually when you're at home, you're not masking, so actually that is more your true self. Or if you're on holiday or if you're around other neurodiverse or neurodivergent pe- people, and you can be your true self. So it's not that you're always masking all of the time, although some people do do that. It may be that, as I said, when you're on holiday, when you're feeling relaxed, when you're at home, when you're within your own tribe, you don't need to do that, and that can be helpful. But if you have been masking all of the time, then that can be quite, you know, a difficult process 'cause it's almost like peeling a layer off the onion, isn't it?

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. AB

      You're presuming that's your true self outer layer, but actually there's something else underneath, and I think that's where coaching or therapy or mentoring can be incredibly helpful for an individual to kind of learn and recognize who they are. And again, what we're thinking about is, you know, having a greater understanding, greater framework, greater, greater understanding of your operating framework and saying, "Actually, it's okay. It's okay to be different. It's okay to have different needs. It's okay to have times when you need time for yourself, or you need to kind of, um, retreat in." That's also okay because actually you're bringing something to the world and society.

    17. AP

      Mm. Is there a risk that you could take these steps to, to discover who you really are and you yourself don't like who you are? Because y- what you've learned, your moral code, your judgment, your, your internal code of ethics could have been built up as part of the mask and also has almost become automatic as a thought process, even if they are not attached to what you truly believe and think. So is there a risk there that you could potentially take these steps and discover something about yourself that you don't like?

    18. AB

      I mean, it's a really good question, and I guess I'd say i- is it possible that even if you're neurotypical, there are things about yourself that you don't like? So I think the answer is yes. My personal feeling is that your core values, um, your core beliefs will be the same. You've just packaged it in a different-

    19. AP

      Sure

    20. AB

      ... way, yes? So the... As with everyone, including myself, I mean including yourself I'm sure, Alex, there are parts of you, what you do or what you're maybe not so good at that you don't like, but we ha- we accept that in that kind of, um, chocolate box analogy from Forrest Gump, that there are chocolates that you really like and chocolates you don't like. I think that's who we are. Um, uh, but I think our core beliefs, um, our moral compass will be there. It's just some of the packaging we might not like so much.

    21. AP

      Mm. If you take steps to, to recognize who you really are, and I guess sometimes that might be quite different to who you have been for many, many years, and people around you don't like that new version, perhaps your family or your friendship group, they, they're like, "Oh, you're, you're different these days," or, "Who have you become?" Like, is, is there a point where you have to maybe detach from previous versions of your past life and, and search for new people?

    22. AB

      I think so. Um, and again, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I, I tend not to think about things black or white situations. I think, again, it's then saying to yourself, "Who are the people that I like? Who are the people I can get along with? Who do I feel comfortable with?" And I don't think you have to absolutely be surrounded by everyone that's neurodiverse and neurodivergent. I think it's helpful to have some people that fit in within your tribe, but again, the variety is your s- is the spice of life, yes? So you don't have to be surrounded by people. But you might say, um, that some of those friends, some of those family relationships are not healthy or not helpful for you. And, and again, there's that saying, isn't there? There is, uh, friends for seasons, friends for life, and I think friends for small periods of your life. I can't remember exactly the analogy, but I... that's the way I look at things, that there are- Friends or people in your life that you might have forever. There might be people that ha- you have in your life for phases of your life and again, uh, for, I don't know. Um, so for example, I'm not very good at keeping in contact with my friends 'cause obviously I'm a bit more of a social butterfly, ADHD. So there might be times when you have friends at uni, but once you leave uni-

    23. AP

      Mm

    24. AB

      ... they're not quite aligned to who you are, and you just find new friends. So I think it's different for different people, but I think for most people, what you're looking for is people who have a similar moral code, ethics, perhaps similar way of thinking is generally helpful. But I think we naturally do that because we have that kind of birds of a feather flock together-

    25. AP

      Yes

    26. AB

      ... kind of scenario. Um, but it doesn't have to be absolute. Not everyone has to be like you.

    27. AP

      Yes.

    28. AB

      But having some people like you is helpful.

    29. AP

      Very interesting. Thank you. Just before we move on to the most, often the most emotionally unpredictable part of the show, which is the washing machine of woes-

    30. AB

      Oh

  18. 1:02:11 – 1:02:54

    Sign #5 You’re Masking AuDHD

    1. AP

      I wanna just quickly reveal the fifth sign of hidden masking, the location in the studio, which is, as I promised, it's above the H on ADHD, and it's a little chameleon. Just gonna stand up and get that quickly. There's a little chameleon. It represents masking. Chameleons shape-shift and adjust to their environment.

    2. AB

      Yes, perfect visual analogy. I love it.

    3. AP

      I'm actually gonna get a bigger chameleon, maybe like a, a fifteen-centimeter one for the shelves, but I think we've already covered it because the fifth mask, the fifth s- hidden sign of masking is you don't know who you are without the mask, and I think that's kindly, nicely wrapped into what we, what we just said. Um, but if anyone-- [laughs] I do apologize if anyone spent the last hour their eyes squinted looking at the screen, trying to find a tiny little object. [laughs] But

  19. 1:02:54 – 1:05:24

    Washing Machine of Woes: Your Questions Answered

    1. AP

      we're gonna move on to the washing machine of woes, as I th- as I think is often the most emotionally unpredictable part of the show. And this week, someone has written in with their woes. The first question in the machine, the first spin is, "Why do I feel like I'm constantly disappointing the people I love, even when I'm trying my hardest?"

    2. AB

      Well, that's a really good question. Um, so again, I think it boils down to social expectations. What is society's expectations of you as an individual, yes? So society's expectations are you turn up.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. AB

      Uh, you can manage any situation, any environment. You can engage. Um, when people call you, you can be there, when they need them to be there. So there's a lot of expectations. That's that kind of push-pull factor. But because we're operating two operating systems at the same time, we can't always live up to people's expectations. And I, I would like to feel that we're getting to the point with podcasts like yourself, Alex, that people's understanding about neurodiversity, neurodivergent is increasing, and so that you might be able to then explain what your needs are. So again, an example might be, um, you know, when you meet up with a, meet up with one of your, one of your friends or a group of friends, that you're always going to the same pub or you're going to a pub that's very noisy. But for you, that doesn't work for you.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. AB

      Yes? And actually, could you perhaps say to them that, "Actually, you know, I really do want to meet up with you guys, but I just can't do that environment." And I think what you're worrying about is being selfish or being too much, um, because you're saying it's too loud or the lights don't work for you. Um, and actually what you'd prefer is somewhere quieter like a, I don't know, a, a, a cafe or something like that, yes? But I'm hoping w- that we are getting to the point that we can express our needs and express that we are different, and different means that we need to do things in a different way.

    7. AP

      Fantastic answer. Thank you so much. I never get used to the t- mini washing machine. [laughs] It's so bizarre. Giant chairs and, and mini washing machines. I mean, nothing's, nothing's as you would, might expect. Just before we finish, I want to deliver to you a letter. I've got a surprise for you.

    8. AB

      Ah.

    9. AP

      Every guest at the end of the episode writes a letter to their younger self. I take that letter and I deliver it to the next guest, which is today yourself. If you could kindly read it out loud.

    10. AB

      Oh, thank you. I feel honored to have got a letter.

  20. 1:05:24 – 1:07:35

    A Letter to My Younger Self

    1. AB

      Um, a letter to my younger self. "Dear younger me, I wish I could sit beside you because I know how lonely you are. The strange thing is you don't look lonely. There are people around you. You laugh, you talk, you learn how to fit in. But inside, you feel like nobody really knows you, and that's the hardest kind of loneliness, not having nobody, but feeling like nobody truly understands you. You don't understand why you feel different, so eventually you decide the problem must be you. You start watching people, learning what to say, which parts of yourself people like, which parts you should hide, and slowly you become the person you think everyone wants you to be. That's what breaks my heart. Because people will love you and you'll still wonder, 'Would they love me if they really knew me?' You blame yourself when relationships become difficult. You disappear from people you desperately care about. You leave messages unanswered and hate yourself for it. But please hear me. Your silence was never the absence of love. You care deeply. You were just overwhelmed and just didn't have the words for it yet. One day you will, and one day you'll meet people who understand without needing you to explain everything. You'll realize you were never asking for too much. You were asking to be seen. If I could sit opposite you now, I'd move my chair a little closer and tell you, 'You don't have to become somebody else to be loved. You don't have to hide to belong.' The boy underneath all that masking was never difficult or different. He was just lonely, and I see him now. So hold on. I'm coming back for you, and when I finally reach you, you won't have to sit alone anymore. Love, me." That's really powerful.

    2. AP

      Wow. Thank you for reading that so beautifully as well. On behalf of everybody listening and, and watching, trying to understand their brains, thank you so much.

    3. AB

      Thank you very much, Alex. It's been thoroughly enjoyable. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 1:07:36

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