ADHD and Narcissism: The Hidden Link You NEED To Know! - Dr Mark Rackley

Alex Partridge 0:00 Covert narcissism

Dr. Mark Rackley 0:01 Mm. Yes

Alex Partridge 0:02 Is that version particularly dangerous?

Dr. Mark Rackley 0:04 Very. You won't know the gun is in your back until it's too late. [gunshots] Dr. Mark Rackley is back The number one ADHD psychologist sharing the secrets to spotting a narcissist in your work or relationships. If you, say, have a, a narcissist in your workplace and, say, a narcissist in your, in your relationship, in the workplace, they will need people to help them to succeed. It's a transactional relationship. There has to be some benefit in it for them. They'll be super nice to you if it means they're gonna get promoted. In, in a personal relationship, that could be where they, they love bomb you, they give you all this attention, but actually their motive is selfish.

Alex Partridge 0:43 Narcissistic rage could quite easily be confused for RSD manifesting itself as aggression.

Dr. Mark Rackley 0:50 Yeah

Alex Partridge 0:50 Love bombing could easily be mistaken for the hyperfocus-

Dr. Mark Rackley 0:54 Yeah

Alex Partridge 0:54 ... of an ADHDer. How can I be sure that my traits are ADHD and not narcissism?

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:00 Le- let's break that down. So

Alex Partridge 1:03 Do you think I'm a narcissist?

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:04 So couple things to consider. [gentle music]

Alex Partridge 1:12 This episode is dedicated to anyone who has three different types of workdays. You either get absolutely nothing done, get four hours of work done at a random time of the day, or you get 40 hours of work done in four hours. Just a gentle reminder that tapping the subscribe button helps us here at ADHD Chatter much more than you might realize. As our audience grows, it helps increase our chances of booking even more brilliant guests full of amazing stories and helpful information. We're so proudly building a community here, and each and every one of our subscribers are valued members of our exclusive ADHD club. The more our community grows, the less we feel alone. So please subscribe. It will help us remind you that you're not broken, that you are and always were enough. Dr. Mark, welcome back.

Dr. Mark Rackley 2:04 Thank you so much for having me back. It's a pleasure to be here.

Alex Partridge 2:08 We did a fantastic episode last time you were here talking about ADHD in, in, in general senses and, and broadly. But before we started recording that episode, we were discussing narcissism off-camera-

Dr. Mark Rackley 2:21 Yeah

Alex Partridge 2:21 ... and it made me think that I had to invite you back-

Dr. Mark Rackley 2:23 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 2:23 ... to explore that topic-

Dr. Mark Rackley 2:25 Yeah

Alex Partridge 2:25 ... um, a bit further. So

Alex Partridge 2:28 a broad question, and not yet ADHD specific, but what is a narcissist?

Dr. Mark Rackley 2:33 Yeah

Alex Partridge 2:33 And is there a difference between a narcissist and someone with M- NPD?

Dr. Mark Rackley 2:38 Yeah, absolutely. Um, so nar- narcissism, uh, if you think, that's a kind of a catch-all word really. Um, it's, it's explaining a set of behavior or personality traits that a person might display. So what you can have is narcissistic personality traits. So they can be things like, um, a feeling of superiority to other people. Um, it can be a sense of that, um, I'm special or that I have, uh, gifts that other people don't have. So they're kind of more kind of narcissistic personality traits. NPD is Narcissistic Personality Disorder, so that's different. That's a mental health disorder, and in order to be diagnosed with that, you need... There's nine symptoms. Uh, we use what's called the, the DSM-5 now, dia- the Diagnostic Statistics Manual, and there's nine different symptoms in there, Alex, that, um, you need to meet five of to have a diagnosis of NPD. So they are different. Like, you can, you can have somebody who's, uh, has narcissistic personality traits, but they wouldn't necessarily meet the criteria for NPD. And also, they might be a bit of a challenging character, but somebody with NPD w- would be quite a difficult person to be around and, in fact, um, could also be quite dangerous as well.

Alex Partridge 4:01 Why would they be a difficult person to be around?

Dr. Mark Rackley 4:03 So I'd like to tell the story of nar- Do you know the story of where narcissism came from, which is just a Greek myth of Narcissus?

Alex Partridge 4:15 No, I don't. So do-

Dr. Mark Rackley 4:15 So this is where the kind of the, the, the, the, the story came from, so Greek mythology. It's all kind of-

Alex Partridge 4:20 Mm

Dr. Mark Rackley 4:20 ... a bit odd, eh? Uh, so you have this chap called Narcissus, and Narcissus, um, catches a glimpse of his reflection in a body of water, and he falls in love with himself, and all his affection goes inward. It's towards himself. And there's this nymph called Echo, and he rejects her advances because he only had desire for himself. And so he never got into a relationship. The relationship was only with himself. His desire was only for himself. And the Greek myth was that he stayed that way for the rest of his life and eventually turned into a flower. And there is a flower, an actual flower called the narcissus flower. [laughs] It's this yellow flower. So that piece is kind of quite, quite real. Um, so that's where the idea of narcissism comes from. It's, it's that idea of being the object of your own affection, and because you're so enamored with yourself, you can- you stay in a relationship with yourself, which means then that having a relationship with other people becomes really difficult because, um, you're not investing in other, in the relationship with other people. You're, you're so invested in the relationship with yourself. And then Freud took that a step further, Sigmund Freud, and he started to talk about narcissism in terms of ego. Um, that's why we have the words now, "That person has a big ego," or, "That person is egocentric." So when he developed the idea of the ego, um, that started to explain- What we'd see as kinda narcissism, uh, the way we understand it today. So, um, so it starts off with the Greek myth. Freud kinda took it and shook it up a little bit in psychological terms, and then we've taken it now, and we have it as a clinical term to describe a personality disorder. So somebody who says NPD, their personality is the problem.

Alex Partridge 6:22 Mm.

Dr. Mark Rackley 6:22 And their person- the narcissism within their personality is causing their mental health to be very, very, uh, problematic, but also that person would not have mental stability. They would be an unstable person, which is why they can be dangerous.

Alex Partridge 6:38 I bet there's a lot of people-

Dr. Mark Rackley 6:39 Big answer. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 6:40 No, it's fantastic. And I, I wonder how many people listening are probably thinking about someone that they know-

Dr. Mark Rackley 6:46 Yeah

Alex Partridge 6:46 ... hearing that description.

Alex Partridge 6:48 Why do you think narcissism is such a big topic-

Dr. Mark Rackley 6:52 Yeah

Alex Partridge 6:52 ... in the world right now?

Dr. Mark Rackley 6:54 Yeah, uh uh, I was thinking about this, um, when we were talking about it earlier. Um, I think culture has a big part to do with it. Like, it's, it's a word that's thrown around, thrown around an awful lot. And also I think in, in certainly, well, just the way I, I, I, I see it, is, um, there's a huge amount in, in social media, but also on television, where that person is described as a narcissist or they're labeled as a narcissist. So, so in popular culture, we're seeing a lot of this kind of personality being portrayed, and I think it's that crossover where now, you know, those mediums are still very powerful, and people, people, although it might be fictitious, start to look at that and think, "Well, I know somebody like that," or, "That, that, that looks like somebody I was in a relationship with," or, "That's my boss," or whoever.

Alex Partridge 7:42 Mm.

Dr. Mark Rackley 7:42 So now we then... It becomes colloquial, and we're now thinking, "Well, uh, without any kind of assessment, I think that person's a narcissist," or, "I think that person's a narcissist." And then that kinda narrative, I feel, has become so pervasive now that it's almost like people are sensitive to when they tune into something that feels like, oh, that's narcissism, then that person gets labeled as a narcissist, which isn't always accurate, but also it's not necessarily a fair, uh, depiction of that, that person. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 8:17 It's quite similar then to ADHD in a sense, in terms of-

Dr. Mark Rackley 8:20 Yes. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 8:20 ... someone gets an ADHD-

Dr. Mark Rackley 8:21 I'm a little bit ADHD, I'm a little bit narcissist. Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Alex Partridge 8:24 And people labeling their friends or family members.

Dr. Mark Rackley 8:26 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 8:27 Um, so how common is genuine narcissism?

Dr. Mark Rackley 8:30 S- it's so rare. Like, according to the stats, and I'm s- I'm laughing as I'm saying this, uh, according to what we know, between .5 and 1% of the population would have NPD. Like, that's tiny, really tiny. Now, why I think it's so low is because people with proper narcissism won't go and see a doctor. They won't go to therapy. They won't go to see mental health professionals. And the reason they won't do that is because that would be perceived as weakness, and somebody who has, like, proper narcissism, they have a very fragile ego. So they have a very fragile sense of themselves, which they need to defend against. So they will do everything they can to not be exposed. So it's massively linked to chronic insecurities. So that needs to be defended against at all costs. So what you get is an over-exaggerated sense of self, that this person can't apologize. They're never wrong. They, um, they're, they're, they're the person that always comes up with the best ideas. So they're never going to admit, "I have a mental health problem here." So, which is why they don't [laughs] like... They genuinely, they, they don't go to therapy bec- for that exact reason. So, so meeting a true narcissist or somebody with NPD is quite rare because there's, there's no way you'll get them into a doctor's office.

Alex Partridge 9:57 Do you think the actual cases of narcissism, genuine narcissism, is higher than what's reported because-

Dr. Mark Rackley 10:02 Could be absolutely-

Alex Partridge 10:03 ... most of them aren't

Dr. Mark Rackley 10:03 ... so, so much higher for that reason, yeah, because they, um, they, they won't be in my office, yeah.

Alex Partridge 10:10 So what does a narcissist need to survive?

Dr. Mark Rackley 10:13 So I think coming back to kind of what we said about Freud a few minutes ago, so Freud came up with this concept of ego, and ego is the Latin word for I, as in the, the, the, um, letter I. So that's that sense of kinda who you are and, and, and your sense of self and your, your relationship with yourself. And Freud saw the function of the ego was, was to reality test the stuff that's coming from the unconscious. So think about your unconscious mind, your conscious mind. You've no control over that. That does its own thing. So what Freud said the function of the ego w- was to reality test the stuff coming from the unconscious so that therefore then that, that stuff could be managed and censored and, and, and, and not harm the person. So if somebody has a fragile ego, then what they're doing is they're compensating for things that they feel they lack, but also they feel that they, um, they want to present to the, their, who they are in a certain way to the world. So, so it's not reality because nobody has all the gifts. Nobody wins all the prizes. Nobody's the best at everything. That's not real. But when you have somebody who has a fragile ego, they can't tolerate failure. They can't tolerate that they're not as good as somebody else, or somebody might be better than them. They suffer with chronic insecurity, chronic envy. So you get this over-exaggerated persona of, "I have this enormous ego," but it's to compensate for the fact that they, they don't have that. So it's a massive contradiction, which is why if they feel their ego is threatened in any way, they go on the attack. And that can be really nasty

Alex Partridge 12:05 And what is it that they're looking for in life, and more specifically, people around them?

Dr. Mark Rackley 12:10 They're looking for validation. So for somebody who, who is a proper narcissist, that validation comes from two sources. You've got internal and external validation. So internal validation's that voice in your head that says, "Well done, you did great there. That was great," you know? That sense of like we can tolerate failure and we can appreciate our successes. So we, if we get external validation, that's a bonus, but we don't need it because, again, if we have a healthy ego and we have a c- healthy sense of who we are, then that internal voice is enough to, to, to keep us in a, in a, in a place where we feel good about ourselves. If you don't have that, then you're going to need external validation all the time, which means you're gonna need people to praise you and tell you how good you are, and you, you will only be able to tolerate, uh, success because failure will feel crushing. So, so somebody who is narcissistic, they, they don't build up resilience because we learn resilience through challenge. We learn how to, what's, what failure feels like, and we, we learn how to, to pick the pieces up and move on. Whereas somebody who's narcissistic, they have a huge skill deficit in that. They, they're not resilient people. They're very f- which is why we use that, that expression, "That person has a fragile ego," 'cause they're so vulnerable. They're such fragile people. And they're so sensitive that if you look at them wrongly a certain way or there's a word that they, or sentence that you said, they're immediately defensive. And that tells you that, you know, there's just such a low tolerance for any sign that I'm being attacked, I'm not good enough, or that, um, I'm being exposed. So they're always, always on the defense. And so what they need is they need those people around them to constantly cheerlead them, tell them how amazing they are. And so what you sometimes see with, with narcissists is they surround themselves by, by basically sycophants. They're the people that constantly go, "Yes, you're amazing. Yes, you're fantastic. Yes, you're this, you're this." They will not surround themselves with people that call them out and go, "But you're not." Yeah.

Alex Partridge 14:20 How does a narcissist prey on someone, and what sort of people are they looking to exploit?

Dr. Mark Rackley 14:28 So I think it all depends on the context with that one, Alex. So f- I'm gonna use two examples. So if, if you say, have a, a narcissist in your workplace and then say a narcissist in your, in your relationship, in the workplace, what they will prey on is they will need people to, um, to help them to succeed. So when it comes to the type of relationships that a narcissist is gonna offer you, it's a transactional relationship. It's not an unconditional relationship. There has to be some benefit in it for them. So in the work context, the transaction relationships will be, they'll be super nice to you if it means they're gonna get promoted. They'll be, they'll be very, very accommodating if it means that there's something in it for them. Now, in personal relationships, again, there needs to be something in it for them. So in, in a personal relationship, that could be where they, they love bomb you to give you all this attention, but actually, their motive is selfish. So what they're looking for maybe is they're looking to, for a place to live, or they're looking to get access to your finances, or they like that if you're very beautiful, then being with you makes them look good. But then you can't age. You have to stay that way. So, so there's always, there's always an agenda on- And, but the thing is with a narcissist, they're not gonna tell you the agenda. You're not gonna get honesty and go, "Oh, by the way, this is what's really going on here, and this is what I'm looking for." You're never gonna get that. So what you'll get is sometimes it will appear to be very nice, and the person will go, "Oh, God, they're really nice." But it's a ploy. They have to get you on board in order for their agenda to be fulfilled. So they've gotta pull you in. And of course, they're not gonna pull you in if they expose what's really going on. So what you get is a performance, and sometimes the performances are Oscar worthy.

Alex Partridge 16:29 And

Alex Partridge 16:30 covert narcissism-

Dr. Mark Rackley 16:31 Mm

Alex Partridge 16:32 ... is that different to the mainstream n- form of narcissism that we hear about? And-

Dr. Mark Rackley 16:37 Yes

Alex Partridge 16:37 ... is that version particularly dangerous?

Dr. Mark Rackley 16:39 Very. So I often call, so overt are the, the, the, the ones that are the, "Praise me, love me, I'm amazing." They're the, you know, they're the ones that it's very obvious. You, you'll see what's going on. The covert ones, we often call that one as well, vulnerable narcissism, so I often call them, they're the smiling assassins. They're the [laughs] ones that you won't know the gun is in your back until it's too late. So with those ones, and it's, and it's interesting with the, with the, the, the covert, um, or vulnerable narcissism we sometimes call it, is they can be the ones with the classic victim mentality. So the sob story, how awful their life was. They can be the ones that, um, appear to be really vulnerable, but they're b- they're, they're using their victimhood or their vulnerability to get attention, and they're using that to, to manipulate you, to get you on board. So it can seem sometimes like if there's genuine, if they have been victims of something awful, then if you were to reject something like, somebody like that, then that wouldn't reflect well on you. It'd be like, well, that's, that's not quite nice. You know? Why, why are you being so awful to that person? But they will be using that to manipulate you, to get you into a place where they can then start to turn the screw and start to control then, and then the agenda comes out. But on the surface, you won't see it Because it's, it's not going to be as obvious as the one who's more overt. So, uh, yeah, smiling assassins

Alex Partridge 18:19 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 18:21 Are narcissists afraid of being alone? And in general terms, do you think a narcissist, what do you think they think of when they are left alone?

Dr. Mark Rackley 18:31 Yeah, that's, I, I that's a fascinating question. Um, sometimes when we're alone with our own thoughts, that's when we go into a reflective space, and we kinda think about things, and we're gonna work and things through. Remember, with a narcissist, the narcissist needs to survive. So it's all about survival. It's all about surviving and keeping the, the, the narcissistic front in play. So when they're on their own, I would imagine that they're, it's, it's plotting. It's scheming. It's plotting. It's, it's figuring out how to stay one step ahead. So they're not in a reflective place in terms of, "Oh, I shouldn't have said that to that person there. I probably made them feel bad, or I hurt that person's feelings, or I..." That's not going on because people with narc- narc- proper narcissism, they, they lack empathy. And empathy, of course, is being able to see the world through another person's eyes. So they can do and say terrible things, but when they're alone with their thoughts, they're not thinking around, they're not feeling bad about what they've done. It's, it's about survival, so how do I continue to manipulate? But also, interestingly enough, because they... You would think that they would love their own company, but they don't, because they're not going to manipulate themselves, 'cause there's, they're not gonna get, gonna, gonna get no benefit from that. So they need to be around people. Because the validation comes from the external source, not the internal source.

Alex Partridge 20:00 If you're dating a narcissist, what might the general timeline be between that turning into a serious relationship? I- How might narcissism show itself gradually-

Dr. Mark Rackley 20:11 Mm

Alex Partridge 20:11 ... as a romantic relationship progresses

Dr. Mark Rackley 20:14 Yeah. So yeah, y- y- it might be v- I think it'd be very fast, actually. Um, because the thing with... Remember, the narcissist has an agenda. So their agenda is the thing that will drive, uh, the speed of the relationship. So y- that word love bombing, so bombing you with love. I mean, you're the best, you're the most amazing, so really making you feel special or that you're the, you're the one who, who gets them. So they're, they're positioning you as somebody very, very unique in their life. So it can move very quickly, because they want to get you on board, and the intensity is to actually lock the relationship down quite fast. So it can move very, very fast. But once then the par- the narcissist has you on board, then the control happens. So im- instead of it being an independent relationship, so an independent relationship is where you do your thing, I do my thing, and we respect each other. There's boundaries. There's, there's, um, good communication. It becomes a codependent relationship, which is, "I need you. You can't leave me. I feel sad if you're not there. I don't feel safe if you're out with other people." So it's really manipulative, and it puts the p- other partner in the position of, well, um, I, I have to sacrifice myself, or I need to, um, always prioritize the other person over myself. But that's exactly what the narcissist wants. They want you to do that, 'cause then they're, they're, you're relinquishing your control, but also they're getting that validation. They're getting that thing that they don't have themselves from you.

Alex Partridge 22:04 And what tricks does a narcissist use to keep you on their hook if they see you as part of their narcissistic supply?

Dr. Mark Rackley 22:13 They can use loads of things. So they can use gaslighting, stonewalling. Um, they can make you believe you're going mad and that you have, um... It can be really nasty, that one, actually, because if you have any kind of mental health, say, ADHD, um, they could use your ADHD as, as a, as a weapon against you. So it would be, "Well, but of course, Alex, you'd do that because you've got ADHD."

Alex Partridge 22:38 Mm.

Dr. Mark Rackley 22:38 So they make you kinda doubt yourself.

Alex Partridge 22:41 Mm.

Dr. Mark Rackley 22:41 But also, they, they, they use that as a means of you now being somehow compromised mentally. That, "Well, you're not, uh, not quite in touch with reality there because you've got ADHD." So again, it, it, it's, it's to isolate you, to, to make you be the problem, s- to deflect from the fact that they're the actual problem. They can also do things like they can isolate you from your family and friends. So family and friends are, are, say, going like, "What's with that guy or girl?" Then they can s- make that out to be, "Well, you know, they're just jealous." So there'll always be a, an excuse as to why the behavior of the narcissist isn't bad, because that can never be exposed. So there'll be deflection. There'll be, um, distraction. There'll be outright lies. So the other person then is left, who d- isn't narcissistic, they're left doubting themselves. So you start to question then your own sense of, um, well, well, am I getting it wrong? And then if the narcissist c- can see a way in to manipulate that, then they absolutely will. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 23:58 I'm fascinated to ask you how someone can actually spot a narcissist-

Dr. Mark Rackley 24:01 Yeah

Alex Partridge 24:02 ... um, before it gets to that stage. But first, I want to

Alex Partridge 24:05 ask you about your ADHD item.

Dr. Mark Rackley 24:07 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 24:08 Um, I ask all my guests to-

Dr. Mark Rackley 24:09 Oh, yeah

Alex Partridge 24:09 ... bring an item that most represents ADHD-

Dr. Mark Rackley 24:11 Yeah

Alex Partridge 24:12 ... for them. And-

Dr. Mark Rackley 24:13 I'd switch my head there. It's full of narcissism. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 24:18 We got the new spotlight. Do you like it?

Dr. Mark Rackley 24:20 I do like it, yeah.

Alex Partridge 24:21 [laughs] I'm gonna do the reveal. [laughs]

Dr. Mark Rackley 24:24 Your ADHD item is...

Alex Partridge 24:28 It's an egg. Passed you this and-

Dr. Mark Rackley 24:29 Thank you. Yeah

Alex Partridge 24:30 ... no worry.

Dr. Mark Rackley 24:31 I, I was afraid I was gonna hop on the floor there. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 24:33 [laughs] Yes, an egg. Why does, why does an egg represent ADHD?

Dr. Mark Rackley 24:41 Right. So the reason I chose an egg is because if you look at an egg, it, um, it's... The- they're... A- apart from various kinda colors and sizes, they're all fairly the same. So they kinda look like they're, there's kind of, you know, nothing to see here pretty much. But as a food item, it's probably one of the most versatile items that there is out there because this can change. This, this, this thing is so creative in terms of what it can do and what it can achieve. But f- if you just take it at face value, then it's just an egg. But if I pop that into a pot of boiling water, it becomes a hard-boiled egg, so it changes its features, and it is able to be something completely different. If I dump it into, um, some milk and make scrambled eggs, it changes it again. If I want to make bread with it, it changes it again. If I want to make it into an omelet, it change it again. So it's incredibly creative and incredibly versatile, and it can do lots of things. But it might not be so obvious. And the reason I chose that is 'cause that's how I see ADHD with my patients. It comes, you know, well, this is ADHD. But actually, within the whole s- sphere of ADHD, there's incredible creativity, but you have to crack the egg or do something with it to release that creativity. And with my patients, I want them to appreciate that creativity and see that creativity is inside them. They, they can do loads of things. They can be loads of things. They don't just have to be an egg, metaphorically. That there's loads of different ways they can adapt to the world. They can do things. They can be all kinds of unbelievable, creative, um, people in the world, and it's all down to managing and, and working with your ADHD to make those changes. That's why I chose the egg.

Alex Partridge 26:44 Hmm. What an amazing analogy. Don't judge a book by a, uh, its cover.

Dr. Mark Rackley 26:49 Don't judge ADHD by its diagnosis. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 26:51 Fantastic. Really, really nice. I'll put that very somewhere safe on the shelves.

Dr. Mark Rackley 26:55 [laughs] Put that into my head.

Alex Partridge 26:57 Um, maybe low down on the shelves. [laughs]

Dr. Mark Rackley 26:59 [laughs] Well, just put it beside the slinky maybe.

Alex Partridge 27:01 Yeah. Perfect.

Dr. Mark Rackley 27:02 There we go.

Alex Partridge 27:02 Um, my item is a washing machine,

Alex Partridge 27:06 my ADHD item-

Dr. Mark Rackley 27:06 Yes

Alex Partridge 27:07 ... because I always forget my clothes in the machine. It's my biggest woe. Um, so I thought I'd call our Agony Aunt section the Washing Machine of Woes, and I ask my Instagram community to send me in their biggest woes. So it goes in the washing machine, and every week, I choose one and read it to my guest-

Dr. Mark Rackley 27:25 Sure

Alex Partridge 27:25 ... see if we can get some wisdom for the community. This week in the Washing Machine of Woes, somebody has asked, "I've been seeing a guy on and off for one year now."

Dr. Mark Rackley 27:35 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 27:36 "He keeps messing up. I won't go into detail, but my friends keep begging me to call it off. But I really think he will change. They all think he's a classic narcissist, but I know he'll lash out if I want to leave. What can I do to leave him and stay safe?"

Dr. Mark Rackley 27:55 Okay. Right. Um, I think we need to be very careful with this one 'cause this does sound like it could be quite precarious in terms of the type of relationship that's going on here. First of all, let's reality check this. This guy will only change because he wants to change. If he, uh, has got narcissistic traits and the relationship is serving his benefit, and he's get- again, his agenda's being served in the relationship, he's not going to change. That's not going to happen. 'Cause if he was going to change, then he loses the, the benefit he's getting from the relationship, so that, that, that, that, that won't happen. But what a narcissist can do, and I think it's happening with this girl, sadly, is they can tell you they will change. But that's not any kind of truthful statement. It's to keep you invested in the relationship. So it's a false promise. It's, "I will change." "Okay, well, then I'll stay." But actually, that isn't a, um, a declaration of what's coming. It's actually a ploy to keep you in the relationship. And also, if the family and friends are worried, then they're worried for a reason. But again, what we spoke about a little bit earlier, what can happen with a narcissist is they will convince you that the family have the agenda. So they'll completely flip it, which is, "Well, I don't have the agenda. I'm just... You know, I'm the victim here. Your family are awful people," or they're being whatever, just difficult. So they'll flip it. That's classic gaslighting, which is, "Well, I'm not the problem. They are." So they'll get you to doubt yourself. So if this guy is doing that, then you have to think, "Well, like, what's my family's agenda in calling out this bad behavior? But also, if they are genuinely concerned for me, then why am I not listening to that and listening to somebody else who's trying to convince me otherwise?" I think what's probably the most telling of what, what this person has written in is the fact that they would lash out if they were to possibly leave the relationship. If you're in a healthy relationship and that there's feelings involved, of course people can be hurt and very sad and not want the relationship to end. That's, that's, that's, that's a completely natural response. But if you're afraid to leave because of the reaction of somebody else, that, that's, that's, that's telling you something That's telling you that this person is not letting you end the relationship, and that's control

Alex Partridge 30:37 What might a classic narcissistic response be to being dumped?

Dr. Mark Rackley 30:41 Oh, depending on the narcissist, that can get really nasty. So the problem with, with narcissism, again, because they can't have any kind of rejection or any kind of, um, situation happen where they're, they're, they're, they're seen as weak, they... They're the people that they go for, they go for vengeance, and they're the ones that hold the grudges. And they will, um, they will need you to look worse than them. They need to come out looking good. So with a narcissist, they c- they... That can get very nasty in terms of, um... It can get, it can get, uh, trolling, threats of, um, manipulation, threats of violence. Uh, it can also be threats of, um, "I will go onto social media and expose you in all kinds of awful ways." So they'll get... They can get very, very nasty indeed, and the whole agenda there is you, you, you can't leave me. And so they're, they're keeping you in the relationship, not because they love you. This isn't love. That's not how healthy love behaves, how an independent relationship behaves. They don't want you to leave them because of how it's going to make them look. They can't be dumped.

Alex Partridge 32:11 In the most extreme cases, can those threats of violence turn into real violence?

Dr. Mark Rackley 32:15 Oh, God, yeah.

Alex Partridge 32:16 And is that narcissism or is that something else at play?

Dr. Mark Rackley 32:19 N- That, that can be, that can be the narcissistic personality trait coming in there, which is the threats of violence can be very... 'Cause that's narcissistic rage. So remember, somebody who, who has proper narcissism, they're not emotionally stable people. They have emotional instability, and when you have emotional instability, then that can cause the brain to go into places where they will say and do things that can be very, very bad. Yeah. So in some cases of narcissism, people will have to involve the police. There'll be restraining orders involved. There'll be protection orders involved because, um, the narcissist won't give up. They will still want to exact vengeance because they will feel that they have been wounded, and they can't tolerate that.

Alex Partridge 33:09 Do narcissists know they're narcissistic?

Dr. Mark Rackley 33:17 Hmm, I'm not sure about that one. I'll try and answer that as best I can. They may know they have narcissistic traits, as in that they have an entitled sense of themself and that they have traits of superiority. And, uh, so they might, might recognize that. But they wouldn't necessarily position that as, "Oh, well, I'm a narcissist." So that, that wouldn't necessarily be a, um, a, a space of reflection, Alex, where they'd, they'd get, "Oh, that's, that's a problem." So they may recognize, "Oh, that's my personality," but they wouldn't infer that as a negative. In fact, they probably see it as a positive. So they would see those traits, those narcissistic traits as, well, they're good things because that means that I am better than other people or I get further in life or whatever. So, so there might be a sense, yeah, I've got these personality traits, but not seeing it as, oh, that means I'm a narcissist and that means it's a problem. In fact, it can be the opposite. It can be seen as a huge advantage in life.

Alex Partridge 34:25 I suppose we've all got needs and wants.

Dr. Mark Rackley 34:27 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 34:27 And sometimes that need and want can involve another person.

Dr. Mark Rackley 34:31 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 34:31 And I suppose narcissists, they're not born with a certificate that says-

Dr. Mark Rackley 34:35 No [laughs]

Alex Partridge 34:35 ... they're a narcissist.

Dr. Mark Rackley 34:37 They're not born that way, either, yeah.

Alex Partridge 34:38 At what point would a narcissist begin to become self-aware that they might indeed have a problem?

Dr. Mark Rackley 34:45 Um, so we think at the moment it's kind of young adulthood where we start to see these things kinda happen. Um, and you can sometimes see, say, in teenagers where they're the ones that, um, they, um... Like, have you ever seen the movie Mean Girls?

Alex Partridge 35:03 Yes, lots. [laughs]

Dr. Mark Rackley 35:05 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 35:05 Got a young sister.

Dr. Mark Rackley 35:06 So yeah. So Mean G- Classic example, the Regina George character, the, the... 'Cause she's, she's a narcissist, but... And she's awf- awful to the other girls, but in order... She has to be the most popular them, you know, 'cause she, she's just gotta take people down. But she also has to have people around her enabling her to stay in that top position. So, so we can kinda see that maybe in young adulthood. I often, when I'm with my teenage patients, I often say like, "Mean Girls has been revamped, of course." And we'll often say like, "Are these Mean Girls?" And they go, "Oh, God, yeah, they are Mean Girls." [laughs] So they get it. They know what you're talking about because they recognize the, the behaviors, and so we can start to see it then. But then if it's... The, the difficulty with personality traits, they can become very ingrained. So if that isn't kinda nipped in the bud in, in early on, Alex, then that can grow, and a personality trait can become really entrenched in the life of that person.

Alex Partridge 36:08 Mm.

Dr. Mark Rackley 36:08 And, and then it becomes far more difficult then as an adult to undo all of that because, as we know, uh, f- in, in, um, psychological research, personality traits can become very ingrained, and they can be very hard to change.

Alex Partridge 36:26 So now we've had a crash course in narcissism.

Dr. Mark Rackley 36:28 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 36:29 I need to, um-

Dr. Mark Rackley 36:30 Feel like I've had a crash course in narcissism. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 36:34 I need to, uh, voice some worries of my own. I'm on camera.

Dr. Mark Rackley 36:38 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 36:38 Um,

Alex Partridge 36:39 I think I share some of the traits we've been talking about.

Dr. Mark Rackley 36:42 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 36:43 Um, I don't like being alone. I need praise to rid me of my RSD.

Dr. Mark Rackley 36:49 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 36:49 Um, do you think I'm a narcissist?

Dr. Mark Rackley 36:51 No.

Alex Partridge 36:53 How can I be sure?

Dr. Mark Rackley 36:55 So couple things to consider. The fact that you're asking yourself if you're a narcissist [laughs] is a very good sign you're not a narcissist, so that in and of itself is, is, is, is, is a very, very good sign that, that, that you're not. Um, people who are non-narcissistic self-reflect. They think about themselves. They think about other people. They also think about the impact that they have on other people. And so they're very much living in a community space, and for people with ADHD, they're very much in that space. Um, they... And we all need people. Of course we do. And of course, people a- with ADHD, you know, sometimes the interpersonal space can be a real challenge for them, so the people-pleasing will come in. They're, uh, overcompensating to deal with the RSD. So what you can see sometimes is, oh, w- well, kind of they might, they might appear to be, um, a little bit maybe distant, or they might kind of trail off in conversation, but that's not them trying to actually make you feel bad. There's no agenda here. It's the fact that they've zoned out, or they're not keeping apace with the conversation, or they're, they're too... They're overthinking or too much in their head. But there's not an agenda, and that's the difference. So, you know, if you've got ADHD, like, your, your, your agenda is not to try and manipulate the other person to try and get them to somehow make you feel good about yourself. That's not the case. Where somebody who has, who is a narcissist, they've got that agenda, and you don't get that with ADHD. In fact, people with ADHD, if anything, they're too much in their head. [laughs] Like, after the conversation, and so then, they, they, they go into overreflection. "And I said that. I had this conversation with my patient, and then I said this," and whatever. And, and the conversation was six month. I said, "When did this happen?"

Alex Partridge 38:45 Mm.

Dr. Mark Rackley 38:45 "Oh, that was six months ago." Like, what? Like, the other person has massively moved on. So y- you wouldn't get that. With a narcissist, they'd be looking back, yeah, but they wouldn't be looking back thinking, "Oh, I'm, I'm concerned I upset that person." They'd be looking back with vengeance. [laughs] Very different.

Alex Partridge 39:05 Mm.

Dr. Mark Rackley 39:06 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 39:08 Definitely describes me, the first half of what you said-

Dr. Mark Rackley 39:10 Yeah

Alex Partridge 39:10 ... like overthinking-

Dr. Mark Rackley 39:11 Yeah

Alex Partridge 39:11 ... desperately worried-

Dr. Mark Rackley 39:13 Yeah

Alex Partridge 39:13 ... I said the wrong thing, what people will think of me after I leave that social encounter. Um, yeah, no, I, I genuinely can't think of, of, of a situation where I've ever gone, "I need to plot revenge"-

Dr. Mark Rackley 39:25 Yeah

Alex Partridge 39:25 ... on-

Dr. Mark Rackley 39:26 But flip that again. Like, that shows you care about the impact you're having on other people. So you want your people's interaction with you to be positive. You want them to, to leave you feeling better.

Alex Partridge 39:38 Mm.

Dr. Mark Rackley 39:39 So that in and of itself shows that you're, you're, you're conscious of the impact you have on other people in, in, in, in that sense, whereas

Dr. Mark Rackley 39:49 a narcissist, they, they, they will have a trail of destruction behind them in their life, and they won't look back and go, "How did that get there?"

Alex Partridge 39:58 There seems to be some traits that overlap, like-

Dr. Mark Rackley 40:00 Mm

Alex Partridge 40:00 ... narcissistic rage could quite easily be confused for RSD-

Dr. Mark Rackley 40:05 Yeah

Alex Partridge 40:05 ... um, manifesting itself as aggression.

Dr. Mark Rackley 40:08 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 40:09 Love bombing could easily be mistaken for the hyperfocus-

Dr. Mark Rackley 40:13 Yeah

Alex Partridge 40:13 ... of an ADHDer-

Dr. Mark Rackley 40:14 Yeah

Alex Partridge 40:15 ... um, early in a relationship.

Dr. Mark Rackley 40:17 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 40:17 How can I be sure that my traits are ADHD and not narcissism?

Dr. Mark Rackley 40:23 Okay. So let, let's break that down. So with ADHD, if we look at the, the diagnostics on ADHD, there's a problem with, with attention. There's a problem with, um, sometimes hyperactivity, and we know that there's interpersonal challenges that a person with ADHD can have. But we also know within that, too, it's massively linked to low self-esteem. It's linked to shame. It's linked to trying to cope with those very strong feelings. But also, you have a brain where the executive functioning part of the brain is slower, and the person is going to be more prone to being emotionally impulsive or thinking with their feelings a bit quicker than they would with, um, uh, uh, uh, when, when it's, it's, it's, it's not ADHD. So you have all that stuff going on, which kind of tells you kinda how that brain is working, but remembering that they're symptomatic of your neurodiversity, and so that's gonna play itself out in your life. And recognizing, again, coming back to what we said earlier, that, that that's, that's management of ADHD in your life. But in, in managing ADHD, you're not trying to control other people to try and manage it. If anything, the person with ADHD, they're trying to control themselves. So they're like, they're, they're like, you know, they're constantly-

Alex Partridge 41:36 Mm

Dr. Mark Rackley 41:36 ... you know, working on, on themselves. It w- it's not about... It, it's about m- trying to manage it with other people, but they're not trying to control or manipulate or coerce other people. If anything, the person with ADHD is having a massive job doing all that for themselves. So, so yeah, you can kind of see, oh, well, you know, it's the hyperfocused love bombing. N- no. You know, sometimes the person with ADHD, they're, they're just trying to feel, you know, feel a bit more secure, so they might kinda get a bit more intense or talk a bit more, but they're, they're, they're not trying to manipulate you.

Alex Partridge 42:12 Mm.

Dr. Mark Rackley 42:13 You know, I think... And, and in fact, you know, my experience of working with people with ADHD, which is what I, you know, I, I think is a massive gift in it, is they tend to be real sensitive souls, like they- they're people that feel deeply and care deeply because of their own lived experience. So, like, I don't meet people with ADHD that are trying to, you know, be awful to other people, and in fact, when, you know, when they do say- Hit the rage button. They feel terrible. They're not proud of themselves

Alex Partridge 42:45 Mm

Dr. Mark Rackley 42:45 They feel terrible afterwards. You have to pick up all the pieces of, you know, and massively over-apologizing and overcompensating because you feel rubbish about what just happened. Somebody with narcissism, they won't give that a second. You'll never get the apology from them. That won't happen. They'll burn the bridges, whereas somebody with ADHD will be building multiple bridges because they think they've, you've, they've upset you.

Alex Partridge 43:09 Are there any other similarities? Somebody... Someone with ADHD might have that are typical of a narcissist but might not be narcissism?

Dr. Mark Rackley 43:20 Typical of a narcissist but not be narcissism. Yeah, so things like, I suppose, um, be careful what I say here. Uh, you know, the idea of, like, a sense of entitlement. You know, the person feels, well, entitled to, um, only good things happen to them, that they, they, they get success. And, and so that sense of, well, the good things only happen to me. So that can be, um, kind of a sign of somebody who maybe is more kinda low-key narcissist as opposed to kinda being the, the person who's, who's got the nasty agenda. Or needing to be the center of attention all the time because they, they don't want other people to get attention in the group. I, I love that, you know that song, uh, by the, I think it's, like, uh, from Marty and the Smits, you know, that we hate it when our friends become successful. Like, that kind of person. [laughs] So instead of them being like, "Oh, that's great you got that promotion," or whatever. Like, if you're kinda like, "Ooh," ending the person because they've done well and you take, you take that as a slight against you, that you, you, you can't be happy for them, then again, that can be a sign that maybe there's a bit of kinda low-key narcissism going on there. So it's a kinda toleration of failure, accepting other people's successes, but also, like, nobody wants to watch the same TV show all the time. That gets boring, and if somebody's, uh, wherever, people all the time and they're the center of attention all the time, we tune out. Now, nobody wants the same show all the time.

Alex Partridge 44:47 Mm.

Dr. Mark Rackley 44:48 Yeah. And, and that's when people can start to, "Well, I'm bored with this now." And, and the very thing you don't want to happen where you don't want to lose people, you want people to adore you and to give you that validation, that'll be c- that will be the very thing that will happen because people just won't want to hang around with somebody like that.

Alex Partridge 45:07 If someone has a ADHD partner and they are trying to figure out if it's ADHD or if there is something more sinister-

Dr. Mark Rackley 45:15 Yeah

Alex Partridge 45:15 ... at play, what steps can they take to help them try and figure that out?

Dr. Mark Rackley 45:20 I'd ask one very pointed question: "Would you go and see a psychologist for that?" And see what response you get. 'Cause if somebody is narcissistic, yeah, they're not going.

Alex Partridge 45:30 [laughs]

Dr. Mark Rackley 45:31 That's not happening. Whereas if somebody who has a sense of, "There might be a problem here, I might need to just get that checked out," then they won't feel threatened by that suggestion. They'll probably welcome and go, "Oh, God, yeah, I think that's a great idea." So they won't see that as in any way threatening to their ego. But if somebody fears being exposed or that their, their, their house of cards is, is, is wobbling, then that won't be seen as something positive. That would be seen as something threatening. So I think I'd ask that question very gently and just see what response you get. And if you get a bit of defense, that's okay. You know, sometimes, you know, we can be quite sensitive with these things. But I, I, I wouldn't back away just because you've got a defensive response. I'd go back in again and, and, and revisit the conversation. But if you're constantly getting defense and the person is shutting down, then I think you need to think about, "Okay, well, well, what's happening here?" Because I'm not threatening the person and I, I'm not threatening to leave if they won't go to, to, to get some help. But if they're not open to discussion, then I think you need to think about, well, well, why won't they even communicate about this? Because it's just a conversation, and where's the threat in that?

Alex Partridge 46:48 What happens when two narcissists date each other?

Dr. Mark Rackley 46:52 That won't happen. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 46:54 Well, well what if you're on a, say, a dating app-

Dr. Mark Rackley 46:56 Yeah

Alex Partridge 46:56 ... and you only have a picture to go by-

Dr. Mark Rackley 46:59 Yeah

Alex Partridge 46:59 ... and you meet up in a pub, and you are both narcissists. How would that date go, and what would stop it from progressing into a romantic relationship?

Dr. Mark Rackley 47:07 Uh, two narcissists, that, that, that relationship can't work. I'll tell you why. Because they will both be in... Y- In order for a narcissist to, to be successful in a relationship, they have to be able to manipulate the other person. The other person has to be, um, open to manipulations and they can be manipulated. Whereas if you have two narcissists, you'll have two people who will not be manipulated. They need to be doing the manipulating. So that, that, they won't get together because, um, their narcissistic need won't be fulfilled with another narcissist. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 47:51 Is there a, um, is there a cure for narcissism? And if not, what do you think might be a factor that perpetuates it?

Dr. Mark Rackley 48:01 There's no cure for it, sadly. Um-

Alex Partridge 48:04 I mean, it can be managed.

Dr. Mark Rackley 48:06 Yeah. But, um, there's no known cure for NPD. There's loads of things that can perpetuate it. So, um, we don't know the origins of it, as in we, we kind of... Some, there's some research to say it's genetic. We don't know that. Um, but what can perpetuate it is if the person is, um, surrounded by people, have or has surrounded themselves by people who won't call them out. If... Interesting thing with a narcissist is people will stay in r- in, in, in, n- not narcissists themselves, but they'll see the value in staying in that transactional relationship with a narcissist. So if the narcissist gives them popularity, power, uh, financial, uh, benefit, then- ... th- it's an enabling relationship, so the person is enabling the narcissist 'cause they're benefiting. So it's a transactional relationship. So as long as the relationship stays transactional, then everybody's getting what they want. So that being the case, then the narcissist can surround themselves with enabling people, which of course then means that the narcissism is only gonna grow. It's not going to, uh, it's not gonna lessen. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 49:18 When dating, how can someone spot a narcissist before it's too late?

Dr. Mark Rackley 49:23 It's a tricky one. I, [sighs] I th- I think the answer to that is you've really gotta educate yourself on what narcissism is. And I often, you know, say to my patients, like, you, we have a gut feeling for a reason. So your gut feeling, we're not quite sure what that is, but what we think it might be is our unconscious can speak to us. It can go, "Hey, be careful. You know, watch out there." Uh, it, it, it's not doesn't have the ability to do that, but it can kinda send us information in a, in a more kinda sensory or physical way. So that kind of gut feeling, which is a kind of, "Whoa, what, what's this tell- I don't know what it is, but what's it telling me?" So, so trust your gut. If something seems too good to be true, it is. If this person seems like they've walked off a movie set of the, your favorite rom-com, chances are [laughs] that's exactly what's going on here. So I think you need to really educate yourself around narcissism and, and, and the fact that, you, what somebody who's a narcissist behaves like. So if it's love bombing, if it's making you feel special very quickly, if the relationship is moving very fast, but you're, but you're, you're kinda getting swept away with it, then, you know, if you, if, if you say to somebody, "Let's slow it down," if they're genuinely interested in you, that won't be threatening. They'll, "Oh, yeah. C- c- cool. Maybe our, we are gonna be fast." So that, that won't be seen as, uh, any kinda sign that you're losing interest or that the relationship is in danger. But if the narcissist has an agenda and the agenda is to love bomb you to get you on board, they won't want that. They won't wanna slow it down. They will, they will spin that as, "But I adore you, and I'm just showing you my feelings." So again, it becomes your problem. That well, you're the problem, person with the problem 'cause you wanna slow it down, whereas I'm just doing what I naturally do because I, I, I love you so much. So again, you need to be very... It's very subtle, and it won't be sinister in the early stages. But again, wa- watch what's happening and listen to yourself and listen to other people, people around you. If people you trust who have no agenda, ask them what they think and listen to them because what the narcissist wants you to do is only listen to them. They want to turn up the dial and tune into me and tune everybody else out.

Alex Partridge 51:49 How can someone tell the difference between being love bombed, which is manipulative and intentional-

Dr. Mark Rackley 51:57 Yes

Alex Partridge 51:57 ... versus being on the receiving end of genuine, organic love?

Dr. Mark Rackley 52:03 Yeah, so love bombing, uh... If you're being love bombed, it's very, it's very intense. But if you think ab- the difference, say, between infatuation and love. So infatuation is this kind of very quick spike, which is all, you know, all the feelings are super intense, but, but it, it's not sustainable. Like, infatuation will spike very quickly, but then you lose interest just as quick. It, there's, it's not, there's no, there's no longevity in that. And if somebody genuinely loves you, then that has longevity. That's somebody who sees a future with you. So slowing things down, again, if they see their future with you, and if they are in love with you, then that love will create healthy boundaries, respect. It will want your opinion. It will want you to feel safe and valued in the relationship. So the person is, is, is wanting you to, to, to enjoy the relationship on your own terms. Whereas if you're being love bombed, that's not on your terms. It's on the terms of the narcissist. So if you try and, and change that in any way, then the narcissist will see that as a threat, and what you'll receive off the back of that is a negative response.

Alex Partridge 53:20 So if there's no

Alex Partridge 53:21 cure, can you change a narcissist, and is it worth trying?

Dr. Mark Rackley 53:26 Uh, no, you can't change them because they can only change themselves. And so trying to change them won't go well for you. They won't appreciate that because, remember, with a narcissist, they don't believe they have the problem, so everybody else has to change, but not them. So if you try and bring it to them, well, you need to change, then that's not going to happen. They're not going to change. So you really need to think about can I be in a relationship with somebody who's not going to change and also who, um, won't accept that their behavior or the way that they're dealing with other people is problematic? Yeah.

Alex Partridge 54:05 And can a narcissist be successful professionally?

Dr. Mark Rackley 54:08 Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. In fact, in some careers, it would be seen as a massive adv- massive advantage. Think about a narcissist. It's all like we said earlier. It's the relate- the, the, the number one relationship is with themselves. So they, um, with the lack of empathy and the lack of compassion, so they will completely screw you over and feel nothing about it because screwing you over, okay, that might disadvantage you, but that's your problem. But as long as, again, the agenda, if it adv- if it, if it gives me an advantage or I benefit from that, then, then I've won. Then that's, that's, that's the, that's the, that's the, the, the desired outcome. So in, in, in business- Then, yeah, they'll steal your customers, they'll steal your deals, they'll go behind your back. They will do all kinds of things to get what they want, and some industries love that, that they're the kind- they're the people that they want make- making money for the, for the business because they are air quote, "very successful biz- bi- uh, business people" because, you know, they'll do whatever it takes. They will throw you under the bus, and they, they won't care. And, and again, some businesses, they, they like that ruthless, uh, go-get attitude, and if, if that disadvantages somebody else or bends the rules a little bit or it's even kind of dodgy, that's a well-told story. How many times do... I won't name them, but how many times are certain financial institutions in the news because, oh, they broke the law? Well [laughs] who are the people breaking the law in the company?

Alex Partridge 55:55 So do you think the Forbes rich list might have a high concentration of narcissists within it?

Dr. Mark Rackley 56:00 Possibly, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 'Cause again, it kinda... If you wanna be ultra, ultra successful, then you, you know, you don't get... You know, being nice to people isn't necessarily gonna get you there, but if you're a tyrant and somebody who's known as being, um... You know, the, you know that the, um [tsks] ... It's interesting talking, talking about, uh, um, uh, talking about culture, uh, earlier. Have you watched Succession?

Alex Partridge 56:32 I haven't, no.

Dr. Mark Rackley 56:33 Okay. D- so Succession is about the, the, the, [tsks] uh, about this family, and he's, uh, the, the main, the main, uh, the father and the children, um, their relationship, but he's a billionaire who runs this big media company, and he's awful to his kids. Awful, awful, awful, and he's awful to the people around him. And they all want to stay in relationship with him because he has all the money, he has all the power, and they will sacrifice themselves to be in relationship with him, and he's just a horrible character. Yeah. That depicts that. Succession is kinda-

Alex Partridge 57:13 Mm

Dr. Mark Rackley 57:14 ... depicts narcissism, I think, really, really well, yeah.

Alex Partridge 57:17 Fascinating. I'll put that on my watch list.

Dr. Mark Rackley 57:19 Yeah, it's very... What's the word? It should come with a trigger warning.

Alex Partridge 57:22 [laughs]

Dr. Mark Rackley 57:22 Yeah. It's done so well. You're literally, like, you're watching it thinking, "I hate these people." [laughs]

Alex Partridge 57:28 [laughs]

Dr. Mark Rackley 57:28 They're just awful people. Very, very, very well done. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 57:33 So successful narcissists aside, with the lower rungs of narcissism and perhaps the majority of the narcissistic population that aren't particularly high-functioning CEOs-

Dr. Mark Rackley 57:44 Mm-hmm

Alex Partridge 57:44 ... what can that look like? Or to put it another way, what does the everyday narcissist look like?

Dr. Mark Rackley 57:51 So they're the people that they're, they... [sighs] Yeah. We have this expression in Ireland, and I'm not sure if they have it here as well. Um, if that person was a bar of chocolate, they'd eat themselves. And it's that idea of they are so enamored with themselves. They, um, praise themselves all the time. They want you to praise them. They want you to give them, uh, adoration. They, uh, might be the person that's boasting all the time and bigging themselves up. "Oh, I went here on holiday, and I did this, and I know that person." So there's always that sense of grandiosity, and if some... You could be saying it if somebody else is, is doing well or if they've done something that they haven't yet done or they wanted to do, then that's kind of seen as, uh... That, that brings a, brings a jealous reaction and one of envy. And also, they can be the people, too, that if they're your friends, then, um, they can be those one-directional friendships, which is, uh, it's all about them. So you're the person who basically they, they hang out with as long as it suits them, but they won't necessarily put themselves out for you, but they'll expect you to put them, put yourself out for them all the time. So it's a, it's an uneven relationship. And again, it's a bit more transactional. So, um, they... And they can be, if they need you, then they will be all over you, and if they don't need you or somebody else comes along that gives them more than you give them, you could be dumped quite easily. Yeah. They don't, they don't give you quality relationships or quality friendships, yeah.

Alex Partridge 59:35 This has been truly fascinating, Dr. Mark. Just finally-

Dr. Mark Rackley 59:37 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 59:40 ... um, social media, is it causing narcissism, or is it just the perfect tool for someone who already is a narcissist?

Dr. Mark Rackley 59:49 It's a perfect tool, yeah. I, uh, it's funny. I, uh... Obviously, I'm on social media as, as, I suppose everybody is, and, like, I'm always fascinated with what com- I see on social media around, um, you know, "Come with me to get my hair cut," or, "Come with me to buy a bag." And I'm like [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:00:06 [laughs]

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:00:07 "What?" [laughs] And it's that kind of thing of like, "Look at my life. Look at my life," you know, and, you know, "Look, look at me. Look at me." And it, it is a breeding ground for people who have narcissistic traits. Absolutely it is, because it's an open forum to publicize your life and to make people envious of you and make people feel, um, that you're better than them, which of course is why, you know, on, on, on social media you have, um, you know, people showing all of these kinds of things like, like, "Get ready with me." Like, what's that? Like, get ready with me? Like, that's a massive thing. I, I... Yeah, what's that? It's, that's not, you know... Th- th- that's, that's about them. It's, it's all about them. So... And I'm not knocking out people. I know people watch that and then probably don't come for me on this stuff, but, um, but I also think as well, like, wi- with social media- Of course, unless you have the comments turned off, then people are going to comment on what they're saying. And the, if the person is narcissistic, they will only need positive comments. But any negative comments, they get very sensitive, they get reactive, and they start defending themselves. And that's where you can see the fragility of the insecurity. Because if you're secure in yourself, then why do you need to defend yourself against that? If somebody doesn't like your outfit or your haircut, or they think your bag looks ridiculous, then fine. That's, that's their opinion. But if you've got that insecurity, then you can only have the praise. You can't have somebody critique you, even if it's coming from a valid place. And interestingly, I always find this fascinating with social media, like, the person who is su- supposedly the, the [sighs] the adored person, like, they can end up trolling you [laughs] 'cause you didn't like... They didn't like what you said. So again, it shows you everything. So I think it can be, it, it could, for people who have narcissistic traits, absolutely, that could be a breeding ground for, um, sadly, just making that person even more entrenched in their narcissism. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:02:17 Maybe further-

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:02:17 It's like an old man saying that, eh? [laughs] I'm not mad at this. Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:02:21 Maybe further evidence that I am not a narcissist, 'cause I signed to a management company to help me mone- man- monetize this podcast, and I had a strategy meeting with them. And I remember saying that I would never, ever do one of those, um, I think I said silly get ready with me videos-

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:02:36 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:02:36 ... in, in the meeting. Um...

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:02:38 'Cause I mean, like, what, if... You gotta think, what, what would you get from that? Like, what, what would that, what would that give you as an experience, as a, as a, as a, as an actual moment in your life? What, what, what benefit does it get, does it serve you to have somebody get ready with you?

Alex Partridge 1:02:58 Well, I don't think my behind-the-scenes is interesting enough to warrant one of those styles of videos, [laughs] if I'm honest. I don't... Generally, isn't it, I, I, I have a shower in the morning, I put some clothes on, and I come do this. [laughs] We have a closing tradition. We might have asked you last time.

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:03:15 Mm.

Alex Partridge 1:03:15 Maybe you've done some impulsive craziness in the last month and a half since you were last on. Your most impulsive thing?

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:03:22 In the last... You did ask me this the last time, and I couldn't come up with something, which is, probably shows you how boring my life is. Um, I was in Rome at, at the weekend, just gone, and I decided I w-... 'Cause I run, and I decided I want to go running in Rome in 36-degree heat, which was probably not the smartest thing to do. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:03:46 How did that end up? How did that turn out?

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:03:47 It, it was not the nicest of experiences, I won't lie. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:03:51 36 degrees? How far did you run?

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:03:53 I probably got about 4K or something, and I was huffing and puffing and thinking, "This is probably not the smartest thing to be doing." Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:04:01 That sounds absolutely terrible. [laughs]

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:04:02 Yeah. Not wise. Yeah. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:04:05 Truly, truly fascinating, Dr. Mark. Thank you again.

Dr. Mark Rackley 1:04:09 Absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. [outro music]