ADHD Chatter PodcastADHD specialist WARNING: "93% of ADHD women won't know they're addicted to THIS! | Serena Palmer
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 11,789 words- 0:00 – 2:35
Trailer
- SPSpeaker
You will hear an ADHD girl before you see an ADHD girl. With boys, you will often see before you hear. We used to think of as ADHD being very physical. For girls, it tends to be audible. Most women in particular, they've got a lot of issues around societal norms, expectations, the dos and don'ts, and then low self-esteem.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And we're just in a mess
- APAlex Partridge
Serena Palmer is an ADHD specialist
- SPSpeaker
and author with a focus on ADHD's alarming connection to addiction.
- APAlex Partridge
Equipped with her own late ADHD diagnosis
- SPSpeaker
she's on a mission to help you change your habits
- APAlex Partridge
and optimize your ADHD.
- SPSpeaker
A lot of ADHD women take really big risks with romantic relationships, and there's something there about self-esteem. There's something there about I must feel lucky if somebody's gonna show me the attention, that self-belief that comes through all of the stuff in childhood. But then there's an equal dollop of risk-taking and excitement. You know, I've been chatting to a guy online. He says, "Why don't you meet me in a car park behind- [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... Sainsbury's at 10:00?" Why would a rational human being do that?
- APAlex Partridge
Quick one before I get distracted. I just wanted to say a very brief thank you to all of my listeners. Thank you for tuning in and thank you for subscribing and following the podcast. It really, really helps. At ADHD Chatter, my mission is to ask the world-leading experts the hard questions to give you access to the most pioneering advice the world has to offer, and with an aim to help you feel seen. Following and subscribing helps me on my mission to book these incredibly insightful guests and to give you these incredibly insightful interviews. Remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Serena, thank you so much for joining us.
- SPSpeaker
Hi, Alex. Thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
- APAlex Partridge
Absolute pleasure to have you, honestly. Like, ADHD and addiction is something that is hugely personal to me.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
Um, being an all or nothing person, it affects me in interesting ways. If I want to start a diet, I will eat everything in my flat that night.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Um, but I'll leave one Creme Egg, which gives me an excuse to carry on my-
- SPSpeaker
Right
- APAlex Partridge
... my, my eating the next day.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Or with alcohol, like, once I have one drink, [glass clinks] I can't stop.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Um, it's... I have one drink, [glass clinks] it kind of triggers this compulsion inside me that sets off the brakes, and there's no knowing where that-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... is gonna end.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Before we get into all of the, the sort of complexities of ADHD and addiction, Serena,
- 2:35 – 8:01
Serena’s Mission in the ADHD space
- APAlex Partridge
what's your mission in the world of ADHD and addiction?
- SPSpeaker
When, when I reflect on my own personal journey, and then after getting my diagnosis and then also after getting sober, um, and the people I've met since then, there is something that stands out to me that is just intolerable, and it is the enormous sense of shame that people carry, particularly those of us who were unaware of our neurodiversity. We're always wrong. Um, I think, you know, there's stats out there around the level of criticism, uh, that undiagnosed, um, neurodiverse kids get versus neurotypical. You know, so we're always wrong, and we have a shame about that. And then if you layer on top of that an addiction, um, and whether that's an addiction to something like alcohol, drugs, uh, gambling, sex, whatever it might be, the fact that you became an addict means that you should have an additional layer of shame. And what I know to be true is that shame kills people. Shame kills people, no question. Shame will be the reason why somebody doesn't ask for help. Shame will be the reason why their family don't step in, because there's something called secondary shame. So we're, we're shameful. We have an alcoholic in the family, et cetera, uh, so we don't discuss it, and we brush it all under the rug, and we... Et cetera, et cetera. And then on top of that is, is society's shame. And all of that together will result in somebody taking longer to get the help that they need, maybe never getting the help that they need, um, and not being able to admit that that help isn't working. Um, um, because once you're given help, you should be fixed.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, and if that's not the case, have another dollop of shame. And I can't stand it because it's, um, it's such an ignorance, and I particularly find it, um, around alcoholism. Um, I talk publicly about that a lot. I hear a lot of preconceived ideas about what an alcoholic is, um, or isn't, [laughs] um, and none of which are true, accurate, or helpful. And, um, I don't think in the UK we have come to terms with how alcohol is interwoven in our lives. You're expected to drink, um, if it's a birthday, wedding, et cetera, but not too much-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... or don't drink like that. And then if you have a problem, let's all remember that alcohol is an addictive substance, um, then you're sh- you should be ashamed of that.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
It's nuts. So I guess that was a long answer, but, you know, for me, the two things go hand in hand so clearly. Undiagnosed ADHD leaves you vulnerable to self-medicating, and you don't always know that that's what you're doing. In fact, I would probably hazard a guess it never starts with a conscious thought of, "I'm now gonna self-medicate." It's seeking to relieve yourself from overwhelm, pain, et cetera.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
So the more I talk about it, the more the conversation is had, the education grows. Um, and what's remarkable is every time I've spoken publicly about any of these things, I will always get messages, people who, who I know, who I sort of, sort of know, acquaintances, um, and total strangers-And telling me their story, talking to me about friends, family, et cetera. We're opening the door. We have to do it a little bit at a time because frankly, people can't cope when you go full in. [laughs] Um, but that doesn't stop me, right? So I w- I, I have no shame associated to my neurodiversity or my alcoholism. I have a lot of shame associated to the things I did, the behaviors that came from addiction. I regret them, and some of them are very painful, but I cannot be ashamed of something that is an illness.
- APAlex Partridge
Incredible. Um, inspiring, but it's, it's heartbreaking, isn't it, when the, the shame is compounded by those early criticisms that so many ADHDers experienced in their early years?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
You alluded to a, a, a, a statistic, I think it's 20,000.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
20,000 more-
- SPSpeaker
More criticisms
- APAlex Partridge
... m- micro criticisms.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
"Stop fidgeting."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
"Why can't you just do that?" "Stop being lazy." "Stop being so sensitive."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
All of these little tiny comments that might s- not seem like much individually, but if you add them all up and compound-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... them over a childhood, they-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... they, they create this adult that is, is so full of shame.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
And then you add on top of that a desire to, to seek dopamine in, in partic- in perhaps unhealthy ways in a type of brain that has an inability to stop.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- 8:01 – 10:17
Serena’s definition of ADHD
- APAlex Partridge
How would you characterize ADHD?
- SPSpeaker
Mm. Um, I, uh, I would say, um, I characterize ADHD as hypersensory, extremely engaged brains who are seeking constantly answers to millions of questions. And h- if, you know, ADHD on a good day, I've, I think I've never... I don't think I could be more interested in anything-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... um, than I am when I'm me on a good day. Um, you could show me any topic, and I will want to know absolutely everything. It's this innate curiosity. It's, but it's also a hypersensitive, um... So we're able to, um, perceive the world in a way that neurotypicals don't. Um, but we live in a world that's built by neurotypical people, and there comes the pain. So, um, that, that to me is, is how I would summarize it.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
You know, my daughter is, um, also an ADHDer. Um, and sh- but she has a very, she, her, her traits, her most dominant ADHD traits are very different to mine. So we present differently, but the c- where we come together and, you know, I work with a lot of neurodiverse leaders, um, in a coaching capacity. Um, I think one of the f- the most sort of common areas is an awareness of many more things that they need to be thinking about, that their brain wants to think about-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... but no capacity to do it.
- APAlex Partridge
Incredible, uh, description. I, um, I've always described it as having like 10 highly caffeinated squirrels-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... barreling around in your head-
- SPSpeaker
Yes. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... each one pulling you in a different direction-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... with a different thought.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
And well, we know the overwhelm-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... that, that can create, right?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
All these different thoughts pulling you in a different direction and, and some days that can be really bad. That can physically paralyze you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Um, and of course, that exposes you to comments like, "Why are you so lazy?"
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
In those moments where you just can't move-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... get off the sofa, all you wanna do is scroll social media because the overwhelm is so bad. Those squirrels are causing so much internal chaos.
- 10:17 – 15:05
How ADHD looks in women and girls
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
If you were to imagine the typical ADHD girl-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... how would you see ADHD manifesting typically in a, in a female?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I think I see it differently, um, in different age groups. So if, if I would say sort of like primary age, you know, the younger child, uh, for girls, I, I definitely see, um, it's the same curiosity. Uh, they want to know everything. They will, they will come up and go, you know, they're... It will be the girls that are saying, you know, "Miss, why don't your shoes match today?" You know, because they've noticed, and then the teacher's mortified. Um, they've put two odd shoe- you know.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
That it will be that girl. Um, they're also, they want conversation mostly, you know, so they're chatty. They are, um, very talkative, and then the flip side of that is zoning out and daydreaming. Um, whereas, uh, I think what we used to think of as ADHD being very physical for girls, it's, it tends to be audible. So you, I... It's difficult, right? It shows up in, and there's different types of ADHD.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
But when really generalizing, I think you will hear an ADHD girl before you see an ADHD girl, and I think boys are different. So I think with boys, you will often see, um, before you hear.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think with, with boys and girls, it's al- almost like you have this internal critic constantly playing out inside your head that you're about to let someone down.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Whatever you're doing.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Um, and, and that you're not trying hard enough, or any attempt you have to relax or have some downtime is, is you falling behind-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... and that won't be tolerated and it, and I mean, it, it's, it, I think exhausting-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... [laughs] is, is a word-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... that sort of summarizes the ADHD experience. Do you think with a diagnosis, men and women-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
You can, it gives you an understanding of yourself, of oneself, that can help you defend against addictions
- SPSpeaker
Yes. If, but it has to be early. And, uh, and I think... So, you know, a- addiction's curious because I, I don't know how we will ever get to who is going, who- are people born addicts? Are people born alcoholics, is, is a question, um, that some research has been done. But how do we get the answer? Because when do you start? If you had two babies born on the same day, you know, then you've got to-
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... how do you ever map it through? Um, so but what we do know is that you can have a predisposition to addiction. So if we then compare that to an ADHD brain, what we know to be true, and, um, is, is the science, and this is what I will say to any newly diagnosed ADHD client, um, who's working with me on, "Oh, my God, I've just had this diagnosis," the first place I will send anybody to go is in their own way research the hell out of it from a science medical standpoint. So whether that is TikTok videos, I don't care, if it's, if it's Instagram or if you're gonna read a, a white paper written by, you know, a university professor, whatever floats your boat, however you want to find out, find out about the maths, the science, the medical perspective. Because when you know that we have interrupted and less access to dopamine and serotonin chemically-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Then, then you look at your brain in a different light. So we, we seek those chemicals because they are mood enhancers and regulators. They bring us happiness and joy. They feel good, right? They're the feel-good chemicals. And so we use them, um, to be a functioning, happy, content human being. And if our brains are inefficiently accessing those chemicals or accessing them in huge volumes at strange times, um, then we're likely to seek out things that can do that for us.
- APAlex Partridge
I guess we have a lower level, a lower baseline level of dopamine.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
So our, we're more drawn towards things that give us a hit of dopamine, and, like, for many people, we, we g- we get to a certain age and we realize that might be alcohol or other, other stimulants. But before we discover alcohol-
- 15:05 – 16:47
Early signs of addition in kids
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Do you have any-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... experience with early signs of addiction in kids?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah. So, um, for me, partly through the environmental factors, again, so this is where it's hard to know, right? Um, it- I grew up, um, my mom was extraordinarily health conscious and still is. Um, and she has a very strict diet, and, um, sweets, crisps, biscuits was banned from the house, right? So that my first access to that would've been at other people's houses, kids parties, you know, that sort of thing. And I, I have very vivid memories of going to extraordinarily big lengths to get hold of all of the sweets and all of the chocolate. Um, sugar, you know, again, we know now how addictive sugar is, but sugar showed up for me really early. I couldn't have one. I could never... The, uh, in fact, the, the thought of having one biscuit would've been such a joke, that it was, it would... It's hilarious. Why would anyone in their right mind have one biscuit if you could have all of them, you know? And I would steal them. I'd steal sweets and chocolate from other people's houses. I'd do that at my grandparents' house, you know. That there was all sorts of sneaky kind of behavior like that-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... and hiding things. Um, so that, and that's, you know, that's g- that's going quite early back because it made me feel good, but also it had the added part to that where it was banned. So it was risky behavior, and just risky behavior is addictive, not necessarily substance-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... you know? Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
This might be a controversial question.
- 16:47 – 23:20
Good addictions VS bad addictions
- APAlex Partridge
Are there good addictions versus bad addictions?
- SPSpeaker
So it's a controversial question because it's sort of playing, I guess, with the word addiction. So I think where I would start on that, so if we look at what is the definition of an addiction. So an addiction is a chronic, um, brain disorder which results in compulsions, uncontrollable compulsions, that have a negative impact on your life. So it's basically being in the, u- under control of something you can't, you no longer have power over, that it controls you to act and do and behave in such a way that is having a negative consequence on your life. So if we take the definition as it is and then think, can you have a good addiction, I guess the answer's no, right? Um, because it's not, it can't be good if it's having a negative impact. But we can have good compulsions, we can have good obsessions, we can have good habits, um, you know, all of those types of things. And I think it's just, you know, with language, people say, "Oh, my God, I'm so addicted to Married at First Sight." I just thought of that because we mentioned it earlier. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
You know, I'm so addicted to it. But you're not, because you're only accessing it when it's broadcast or maybe you're watching it, you know, back to back, you know, whatever. But it, it's not having a negative impact on your life in a destructive way, and actually there are controls around it. But I think when it comes to can, can we have good obsessions? Yes, certainly. So, you know, with hyperfocus, for example-There are, you know, there are extraordinary things that individuals, uh, can achieve in a what may look like to the outsider a bit of an out of control hyperfocus. Um, and it probably is an out of control hyperfocus. But, you know, myself included, I've, I've done extraordinary things in that space that it would take a neurotypical person months to achieve. Um, we can get obsessed with things that are good for us, but we can't be addicted to them
- APAlex Partridge
If we're-- 'Cause if I'm watching a TV program that I really like-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... like, it, the idea of it being on TV tonight-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... generally makes me excited.
- SPSpeaker
Sure.
- APAlex Partridge
Like Gladiators.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
That's like, and I can, I physically get excited.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
So I'm not addicted or getting excited by the program. I mean, the, the, the thought of the program is giving me a chemical.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Right?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Which is making me excited.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Could I get addicted to that chemical?
- SPSpeaker
Yes. Yeah. So, uh, so you... And then the addiction, the, the active addiction is then finding the thing that produces that chemical.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
So you'll run out of TV programs. I literally cried the other day because the show that I've been obsessively watching, I, it was six seasons, and I got to the end of it, and obviously I'd watched them in three nights, you know?
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs] Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
So I'd gone until 2:00 in the morning. And a, a friend came over and said, "Oh, how's that show that you're watching?" And I, I burst into tears-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... because it had finished. [laughs] So-
- APAlex Partridge
But binge, binge-watching a show, is that the same compulsion and inability to stop as-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- 23:20 – 29:29
New ADHD management technique
- SPSpeaker
there is, there is this, a technique, um, I'll just chuck it in. I developed this accidentally, and I now share it with anyone I meet with ADHD who's suffering this exact thing. I can't do something until it's almost too late.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, and the crisis of that and the stress that it puts on their friends and family and people that live with them, um, it can be really hard. So this is something that I always, I share with people and I say, "But you have to make it your own. You have to experiment with this because you, you need to make it uniquely yours." So if you had a to-do list, Alex, in front of you with all the millions of things... And by the way, it's perfectly fine for... So my task list will have things like, "Remember to eat food." Eating food is a task in the same way as write a presentation is a task. Uh, have a shower. You know, all of the stuff is, has equal weight as a task. Put everything down onto a piece of paper in random order, scatter them around, and then get three different color pens and create a key, like on a map. So red, for example, uh, the color red, and then you have to name thatAm I allowed to swear on here?
- APAlex Partridge
Yes, go ahead.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. Uh, so you have to name that-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... uh, the name that you genuinely have in your brain when you think about the worst of those tasks. The worst ones, okay? So for me, it was fucking bastards, okay? So the fucking bastard tasks-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... were red, right? Then create a, a... I realized when I looked at the list, there's some that I have no emotional reaction to at all. None. So they were like amber. So, and I call them meh, because I don't care about them. They're nothing. And then there were some tasks on there that I actually like, and I called those brain ticklers, okay? These are the names unique to me, right? But basically, what we're doing is associating an emotion to the task, right? So that we don't always have to get to the, "Oh my God, I'm gonna have to work all night, and my family are gonna hate me," just to write a presentation or whatever the thing is. So if we associate the emotion, because we know with ADHD, it's always, it's, it's always gonna be emotionally driven over how important somebody else might-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... feel about it, yeah?
- APAlex Partridge
And interest-led, right?
- SPSpeaker
Totally. So it's, it's... So that's why the brain ticklers, the green category for me-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... are beautiful. So once we've circled everything on that messy task list with its allocated color, you know exactly which ones are the bastards, which ones you're gonna quite enjoy, and which ones actually have no response, they're just what they are. Then you can pick and choose what's working for you. So some, so for me, I will often, not always, often start with a meh task, because it gets the cogs turning and it makes me sit down. And if I sit down and I've done one thing, I get a small uplift in dopamine-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... and I reward myself now with a brain tickler task.
- APAlex Partridge
So it's a little hack to get over the procrastination hump. You sort of, you, you do the low-hanging fruit first-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... to get the reward-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... to, to give you the motivation, the momentum to do the s- the more challenging tasks.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
What, what's the, the swear word one called?
- SPSpeaker
The fucking bastards.
- APAlex Partridge
F- [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. The, the, the fucking bastard tasks. You know, the, they will be like... I've got a, a small water fountain in my garden.
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
It's been broken for three months.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- 29:29 – 30:30
Tiimo advert
- SPSpeaker
yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
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- 30:30 – 33:59
The link between ADHD and mobile phone addiction
- APAlex Partridge
How much of a problem do you think ADHD and phone addiction is?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
And do you think that's quite a scary prospect, considering phone use is on the rise?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I, I actually do. Um-I find it really scary. Um, I find it scary, uh... You know, a p- part of my story is I, I checked into a rehab to get sober and, uh, I was there for a month, and I was talking to one of the therapists there, a- [clears throat] and I said, "You know, what do you notice, having worked in this space for so long? You know, w- you see people come and go all the time, you know, what, what trends are..." And, and they said two things. In the last five years... So I was there in December 2023, came out January 2024, and, um, they said in the last sort of five years, the age of people coming into rehab was getting younger and younger. They were seeing m- much more, um, younger people with combined addictions, and they were already s- noticing phone and phone addiction as becoming associated with other addictions.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, so a bit like cigarettes and alcohol, they were going together. Um, I, I'm genuinely worried about that and, uh, I don't think our brains, um... I... So there, there's always a paradox with ADHD. You mentioned earlier that when in your overwhelm, you lie horizontal and scroll on your phone, that doom scrolling.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
So it's almost like overwhelm me with noise, pictures, but also more things to be interested in.
- APAlex Partridge
It's more like a distraction.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
It's, it's not try- it's not adding more. It's, it's distracting me from that monologue inside my head that is ges- just getting so frustrated and almost full of self-loathing-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... because I can't start the list of p- the, of tasks that I know I need to do.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Um, and rather than kind of sit in that feeling of hatred, self-hatred, and feeling useless, I distract myself by-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... an easy dopamine source-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... which is a video of, of a cat falling down, you know-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... of someone falling down a staircase or something-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... on social media, like Instagram doomscrolling.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Um, so for me, it's more of a distraction.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah. But it's, but it's interesting. I guess when I, when I think about neurotypical people listening to that, they would say, "If you're so overwhelmed, if the noise in your head and you can't get started, you should be li- you should be lying quietly, you know?" So, uh, and it's, it's that paradox that we, we can't be quiet.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
We find that hard.
- APAlex Partridge
I wish I could lie down and be quiet.
- SPSpeaker
Yes. Yeah.
- 33:59 – 42:41
Common addictions in ADHD adults
- SPSpeaker
with peace.
- APAlex Partridge
What do you think the most common addiction is in ADHD women and ADHD men?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I definitely, uh, with women, uh, I would 100% say is alcohol. Uh, so if we look at how we've behaved in society over the last prob- I don't know, 20 years or so, um, the... I guess maybe... I don't know the last time, Alex, you tried to buy a birthday card from an online birthday card company.
- APAlex Partridge
No, I go to the supermarket at the last minute.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
On the... That's not even a j- I do. It's, it's, well, it's helpful.
- SPSpeaker
So well, supermarkets tend to be better because they know that they've got to provide for every eventual possibility, so they tend to be kind of bland.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
But if you go, if you go onto an online card company and do the search criteria woman over 30, you know, maybe it's the 30th, 40th birthday, uh, try and find one that doesn't have prosecco on the front-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... or gin o'clock or, or, um, you know, mummy's medicine, you know, all of this kind of stuff. So this whole culture that has been surrounding women, um, with alcohol is playing a part. Um, and I think ADHD women, we s- we're seeking exactly the same relief, and we, we don't know what, why we're so overwhelmed, and we can't, we struggle to be ourselves. Um, and alcohol in society is pitched at us, um, whether, you know, it could be, like I said, mummy's, you know, it's, it's mummy's special time, gin o'clock, all of this kind of s- narrative. Um, I definitely see-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... that playing out. Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Do you think it's harder for ADHD women than neurotypical women to kick an addiction? Because the disco ball there, it represents it quite well, is one of the ADHD items. Um, it kind of represents people with ADHD. We have so many more snapshots of the world.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
Like we're alwa- we're living in a constant state of fight or flight. We're always scanning for danger, um, perhaps because of those 20,000 negative messages we had as a kid, right?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
We're always anticipating an attack, so we're always like an owl-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... wide-eyed.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
And therefore, do we see more of these messages that are encouraging our addictions than someone who might be neurotypical?
- SPSpeaker
Mm. I would expect so. Uh, I think because we are, uh, we have such heightened, uh, sensory responses, so, um, what we're taking into our brains and the things that we think about at two o'clock in the morning, um, are fragments of things that we've been exposed to. And I think-For an ADHD brain, we are seeking to normalize all the time. So, uh, I remember being a, a young teenager, maybe about 14 or 15, and a big row with my mom and saying, "I don't know the rules." And she was like, "What do you mean that you don't know the rules?" And I can't remember what the specific thing was, and I was like, "But I've..." But as soon as I said, "I don't know the rules," I remember this enormous overwhelming feeling of like, I don't know the rules to anything. I don't know what the rules are for anything. So I seek to normalize, and I mimic, and I mask.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, and so if you think about how an ADHD woman is positioned in society with booze, um, and how, "Ooh, you deserve it," you know, and how it is on social media, in films, TV, et cetera, it almost feels like a socially acceptable thing to do. But o- over and beyond that, it's almost like an expectation. Um, and I would say that for any person, regardless of your gender, actually, to not drink in the UK is you, you are the exception-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... to the rule.
- APAlex Partridge
It's a cliche, but it, it's the saying, and it's true, right? Alcohol's the only drug you have to justify not taking.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
And I feel like justifying not-
- 42:41 – 45:28
Are ADHD adults at risk of toxic relationships
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Um, but if we see a higher rate of addiction within the ADHD community than-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... the neurotypical community-Does an ADHD woman, an ADHD man, if they find romance in another ADHD person who also might be an addict-
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm
- APAlex Partridge
... does that put them at risk of entering a relationship that might be very toxic?
- SPSpeaker
Mm. Uh, I, yes. Um, and it's really interesting because I think we, we assimilate to people like us on things that we can't see or hear either. Uh, so ADHD is, we, we all have energy, you know? We're, we're, we talked about this earlier [laughs] you know, when we were chatting. We're vibrating. Everything vibrates. We're all just balls of light and energy-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... and vibration, right? And there is a sensory element to an ADHD brain that is, um, picking up on those things. So quite often we're gravitating towards somebody because there's something unspoken or unsaid. It's an energy. Um, and I think there is allyship there, uh, and there's safety. There's also a freedom. There's a freedom that I can be me and you can be you, because we're both being us together.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
So if there's two of us being different or weird or loud or whatever we're doing, then we, you can't pick on us. There's two of us, you know? And it allows us to be ourselves. The flip side of that is the risk-taking and the risk-seeking behavior. If that's the thing that you're vibrating together on and you've got a substance use in there, then the chances of you both being able to overcome that, it get really, really slim-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm. I-
- SPSpeaker
... together
- APAlex Partridge
... and I feel like if you've got two impulsive people together, like if one relapses, I feel like there's a higher chance of you both relapsing. So just having-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... two impulsive brains living together-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... seems like the risk of a relapse is gonna be higher as well.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah. And it's one of the saddest things I've experienced in recovery actually is, um, is seeing people really, you know, week by week recovering and, and understanding their addiction.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
But they live with another addict, and it's just, it's heartbreaking to see that person's recovery journey fall apart and they disappear, and w- everybody knows why.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Because the biggest struggle is having an addicted partner. Um, you know, you've, you've got to be so careful. You've gotta protect yourself in, you know, early recovery. And if you've got someone who is that familiar routine that you know you can access that feeling of feelgood and they're just still doing it, it's just, it's just so hard.
- 45:28 – 53:41
How ADHD adults experience love
- APAlex Partridge
How do you think someone with ADHD experiences love?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
Like, can they become addicted to the love chemicals like dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, for sure. I think I, it's in the same way that, you know, because our access to those things is interrupted and less than, we seek it more. Um, and so I think it's, it's fairly common to fall in love really hard as an AuDHDer, and then to expect that sort of honeymoon phase of a relationship to last forever, um, and s- [laughs] and seek it.
- APAlex Partridge
I'm, I'm laughing. I think w- I think everyone listening will be like, "Oh, damn. That's, that's relatable." [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I think, you know, the, our expectations are wild.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, and you know, the idea of romance-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... and love is exciting, and then when you experience it, it's for sure, you know, everything else will drop away and that that person is your new hyperfocus and you want it to be maintained and you want that experience to stay like that. Um, and then when it isn't, we have the flip side.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
So you know, a crash, a crash out of life for a while after your first argument because you'll then agonize about it. RSD plays a huge role. Um, and you know, we, we experience ADHD differently, and I, um, my, my daughter definitely is... She has a really amazing acknowledgement of how much the RSD factor plays out, even just at the start of a relationship. I mean, I'm an ancient, old person, right? But the, what the kids are doing now, we don't go out with each other. You know, we, we're just chatting. We're just talking. There's this whole pre-phase to a relationship.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Don't know if you're aware of that, Alex, but you know, people don't just go out with each other now. They have to like, "Oh, we're in the talking phase," you know?
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah, it's, it's a minefield out there.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, my God.
- APAlex Partridge
You have to go through that, then you have to declare you're exclusive.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Right. So they, they've put additional layers in-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... that shouldn't need to be there. Anyway, their choice, their lives. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
But she's aware that she's already doing this to, you know, kind of RSD like that, but preempting it when she's only just starting to talk. You know? So before she's allowing herself to feel that euphoria. It's, there's, there's almost a sort of self-sabotage there.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
There's, you know, and I think that's equally as common to almost deny yourself the love feeling because you're gonna talk yourself out of it before you get there.
- APAlex Partridge
With ADHD women in that dating phase or in the early stage of a, of a relationship, do you see a cycle of that impulsivity leading to maybe they overshare on a first date, or they reply to a text too early, or they come across too... And then they feel a lot of shame the next day. Do you see that cycle?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah. And, um, the, the funny thing is, it's back to the I don't know the rules. Um, so I, I would say that's like a really common, uh, if that was a theme tune, uh, if that was a song, that's playing all the time in the back of my head, "I don't know the rules to anything."
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And so the constant, uh, assurance that you give yourself is whatever attempt at the rules, you'll be wrong.So we cover all bases. So we say too much, we do too much, then we'll kick ourselves for it. Um, but I've also, you know, I, I have definitely seen a lot of ADHD women take really big risks with romantic relationships, and there's something there about self-esteem. There's something there about I must feel lucky if somebody's gonna, you know, show me the attention. It's that self-belief that comes through all of the stuff in childhood. But then there's an equal dollop of risk-taking and excitement. So, you know, I've been chatting to a guy online. He says, "Why don't you meet me in a car park behind [laughs] Sainsbury's-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... at 10:00" o'clock. And, you know, she's like, "So I'm just choosing what to wear." You know? And you're like, okay.
- 53:41 – 56:19
How many ADHD women are addicted to something
- SPSpeaker
yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm. What percentage of late diagnosed ADHD women have some form of addiction?
- SPSpeaker
So this was groundbreaking when I heard this, and, um, this came from a psychiatrist and, uh, and then later my ADHD coach. Um, so the conservative number is 60% of late diagnosed ADHDers already have an established addiction or addictions. Um, that's the conservative number. What I think is the reality, um, I'd say 90% of late diagnosed ADHD people have an addiction issue or may have already overcome it but have certainly experienced an addiction of some kind. Um, and that can be anything from something that, uh, is sort of often not talked about but it's extremely dangerous, is, uh, the skin-picking disorder. It has a name I can't pronounce.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Um, and it's... that's particularly prevalent in women and girls.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, and it's really interesting, when I heard about that, um, I realized that there was a period in my life as a teenager, I would compulsively pull my eyebrows outAnd I used to, and people would say, "What are you doing?" And I'd have big bald patches. You know, it was... I was lucky 'cause it was the '90s, so, uh, Vanilla Ice was really popular, and he had a little thing in his eyebrow, you know, but mine wasn't-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... wasn't looking cool. Um, but, you know, I'd compulsively do it, and I used to say, "Oh, uh, I find it relaxing." Um, but actually it's giving you a little tiny, tiny hit of dopamine.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, and then it, the much more severe form of that is, is really chronic, so hair pulling, uh, creating bald spots, bald patches, very, very painful, um, inflammation issues, um, you know, infections, skin picking all over your body, and people end up with that sort of issue. And that is, uh, an example of a repetitive behavior, an obsessive compulsion, that then becomes an addiction because it becomes chronic and it has a severe negative impact on your life.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
So I think from the people, you know, why is 60% conservative? A lot of addicts don't know they're addicts. I didn't. It sounds nuts, but addiction is nuts. Um, and a lot of addicts don't want to say that they are addicts. So if you're trying to survey people [laughs] on addiction, I would say you're gonna get a conservative number.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
So interesting. And if someone relates to that, they're trying to kick an addiction-
- 56:19 – 58:03
3 challenges when trying to go ‘cold turkey’
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... what are some common stumbling blocks that people find themselves tripping up over if they're trying to go cold turkey?
- SPSpeaker
Mm. Uh, so the first thing is, uh, they're trying to stop the, uh, the negative consequence of that behavior, um, and not addressing the reason for the behavior. So a, a really good example of that, and I, I'll just make it about my own experiences, you know, uh, when I was, uh, in active alcoholism, I would be obsessively thinking about how to stop the end of the night being catastrophic. Uh, and my, all my focus was on if I could just, right, you know, I would stop drinking by 12:00. Bad things happen after 12 o'clock in my house [laughs] for me. Um, all of my energy, hiding my phone from myself, you know, it was all focused around controlling the behavior and never realizing that it was the first drink that was the problem, because I cannot ever have one drink, and I know that to be true.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
And I also cannot ever drink safely. So, but because we're so poorly educated around addiction, particularly alcoholism and drug abuse, very, very similar, we don't understand that, so we have no tools. We don't know what we're doing. We're just trying to modify the damaging behavior, and normally so that other people will stop talking to us about it. You know, that's, that's often the, the, the reason behind it. And the, the issue, of course, is not the behavior. The behavior is a symptom of what's causing that. So if emotional dysregulation is the issue, if, um, high chronic anxiety is the issue, that's what needs addressing.
- 58:03 – 59:28
The complex link between AuDHD and addiction
- APAlex Partridge
Someone with AuDHD, the dual diagnosis-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... of Au- ADHD and autism, someone who might rely on repetitive behaviors, how do they know when the repetitive behaviors stop and the addictions start?
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. Uh, so it's around the level of control, I would say. So, um, if, if there is an inability to, in any situation, to modify, excuse me, if there's an inability to modify your behavior, uh, you have lost control, um, and you are doing something against your own will, I think you've crossed into an addiction.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
You know, that's, that's the interesting thing. You know, I can certainly say that there are many people I know in recovery who talk about, you know, "I w- I was taking drugs," or, "I was drinking against my own will." So, you know, for me, when it comes to sort of trying to describe that to someone who's never experienced that before is, I talk about having two brains. I have an addict brain that's always gonna be there, and the, the against my will is a conflict between the addict brain and you, and it's just a case of who's gonna win.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm. So fascinating, Serena. I could honestly talk to you all day. Um,
- 59:28 – 1:01:59
Serena’s ADHD item
- APAlex Partridge
I wanna draw attention to your ADHD item-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... which is patiently waiting underneath that cloth on the table. Um, every week a guest brings in an item that most represents ADHD. I'm going to reveal yours now.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
That is a very big doll's house-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... that I got delivered to the studio today. I didn't realize it came in about a billion pieces, [laughs] so I haven't had the hyperfocus to put it together. But there's a-
- SPSpeaker
I bet you do at 3 o'clock in the morning. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs] I'll send you a picture of it tomorrow morning-
- SPSpeaker
Done it
- APAlex Partridge
... perfectly finished.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
But for now, it's a picture on the box, because that's all I had the focus for. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] That's right. Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Why does a doll's house represent ADHD?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Well, the whole journey to this is, is kind of the, a bit convoluted, because this was the best representation I could think of-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... [laughs] to, to describe what is in fact a hotel corridor, is, is, you know... And I thought maybe a doll's house where you can see all the rooms might be a, um, a way to represent that. So it, when I talk about what ADHD is like in my brain, uh, I, I say it's, you know, those super big hotels where you can stand at the end of the corridor and all the bedrooms are sort of uniformly there, and it's the housekeeping time, so all the doors are open and the TVs are on in each room, and every single television is playing a completely different program on a different topic at different volumes. That's what my analogy of an ADHD brain is. Um, and-It became a shortcut way for me to describe how I was heading towards trouble, overwhelm
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
So I would say things, uh, to my partner at the time, like, "The tellies are really, really loud." Um, or sometimes I would say things like, "All, all the channels are on the news, like the bad stuff, um, and it's loud, and it's bad." And you know, that became like a shortcut way for me to try to describe-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... the ADHD brain. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
So there we go. That took us to a doll's house that you couldn't build-
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... but I have no doubt you will on a random day. Um-
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. That was a brilliant analogy. Really, really good. Hotel corridors are weird, aren't they?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Do you find that it feels like you're running faster-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- 1:01:59 – 1:07:33
The ADHD agony aunt
- APAlex Partridge
Serena. I wanna do the ADHD agony aunt section-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... um, which is called the Washing Machine of Woes.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Um, it's called the Washing Machine of Woes 'cause my ADHD item is a washing machine because I always leave my laundry in the machine after the cycle, um, and I ask everyone, "Do you relate to that?"
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] So I would say that there are times when I do, but because I have a 21-year-old daughter-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... who lives in my house who does that all the time-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... I've become hypervigilant about that not happening.
- APAlex Partridge
Oh.
- SPSpeaker
So I would say, uh, that's, I've passed it on to her-
- APAlex Partridge
Right, okay
- SPSpeaker
... and now I complain about it to her. Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
That's what I need, a child.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. I, I've asked all my guests. Like recently I feel like I'm the only one who does it. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Maybe it's not an ADHD thing. Maybe it's just me.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Um, but I'm getting better 'cause I use the Tiimo app now. It does remind me. Um, this week, Serena, in the Washing Machine of Woes, somebody has written in and asked, "My friend is killing herself with alcohol. She has ADHD. How can I bring this topic up with her when she clearly does not have any interest in stopping, even though it is affecting her and her children's lives?"
- SPSpeaker
This, this would probably be the best advice I could give on that situation. Um, I truly believe it takes an addict to help an addict, and I think it takes an AuDHDer to help an AuDHDer. Um, so that has been true for me in both scenarios. Um, you know, I'm an executive coach. I've had executive coaches for years. They've been awesome, but my life changed when I met an ADHD coach, um, because finally the conversation changed. The same thing with addiction. If you have somebody who c- who knows their stuff, a doctor, uh, a therapist, but they haven't been in your seat, um, there is something missing in the ability to relate to that. So my advice would be to seek that.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
So find somebody, an addict in recovery, who knows that experience, and it really won't be hard to find an addict in recovery who's also got ADHD-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... because a lot of us have. Um, so that would be something that I would definitely suggest.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, a conversation that is, uh, with that individual c- has higher potential to plant a seed. The sad thing about any kind of addiction recovery is that no one gets you sober. You get you sober. Um, and that, you know, everyone I know, myself included, who tried to get sober for other people fail.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, and then we will use that failure to continue the addiction, to drink on that, you know? Um, and that's the devastating thing about living or, or loving somebody who is in active addiction, as you can see the destructive nature of that, and I'm really sorry that that's happening for somebody because, um, you know, it's, it's one of the most heartbreaking things to observe.
- 1:07:33 – 1:08:24
A letter from the previous guest
- APAlex Partridge
... I wanna deliver you a letter-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- APAlex Partridge
... that was written by the previous guest, where they wrote their three rules to live by.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. To the next guest, three rules to live by. Find the context where your strengths can shine. Number two, the only way to expand your comfort zone is to step outside it repeatedly, 100%. I think I do that without noticing and then have the fear later. Um-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And number three, take the time to identify and address the root causes of difficulties rather than reaching for meds. Great. I'll take all three of those. Thank you.
- APAlex Partridge
All brilliant. And once again, Serena, thank you so much. Thank you.
- SPSpeaker
Thanks, Alex. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 1:08:25
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Transcript of episode 0WAdjKs2qCo
