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Autism Expert: What Autistic Masking Feels Like From The Inside

Dr Martin Brunet has 25 years experience as a NHS GP. He has a special interest in Autism and ADHD and is the author of the best selling book entitled ‘Make Your Worry Make Sense’. In this episode, Dr Martin explores the hidden reality of autistic masking, why it starts, what it feels like, and the long-term impact it can have on identity, relationships and wellbeing. We discuss the subtle signs of masking, why so many autistic people go undiagnosed, and what it can look like to safely rediscover who you are beneath the mask. Chapters: 00:00 Trailer 01:08 What Masking Actually Feels Like 06:32 How Early Does Masking Start? 07:48 What Teaches a Child to Start Masking? 09:26 Can One Cruel Comment Change You for Decades? 11:22 What Are Autistic People Protecting Themselves From? 14:03 Is Masking a Choice — or Completely Automatic? 16:29 The Autistic Mirror 19:54 When Masking Becomes a Survival Mechanism 21:43 The Subtle Signs Someone Is Masking 24:38 Inside the Mind of an Autistic Person Who’s Masking 26:19 The Aeroplane Analogy That Explains Masking 28:57 What Years of Masking Does to a Person 31:08 Tiimo 32:38 The Biggest Cost of Masking: Losing Who You Are 34:39 Why Masking Can Make Autistic People So Lonely 36:18 Why So Many Autistic Women Are Missed 38:58 Can You Look Successful While Falling Apart Privately? 41:21 Code-Switching: What It Is and Why Autistic People Do It 43:39 Why an Autism Diagnosis Can Be So Emotional 46:24 How Do You Find Yourself After Years of Masking? 49:05 Why Unmasking Isn’t Right for Everyone 52:42 How to Start Unmasking Safely 54:30 The “Washing Machine of Woes” 59:16 What I’d Tell My Younger Autistic Self Visit Dr Brunet’s website 👉 https://www.martinbrunet.com Find Dr Brunet on Instagram 👉 https://www.instagram.com/doc_martin_gp/?hl=en Get 30% off an annual Tiimo subscription 👉 https://www.tiimoapp.com/offers/adhdchatter Buy Alex's book entitled 'Now It All Makes Sense' 👉 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-All-Makes-Sense-Diagnosis/dp/1399817817 Order Alex’s book about Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria 👉 https://linktr.ee/adhdchatter?utm_source=linktree_profile_share&ltsid=9ffd8709-06df-444c-9936-c136fbd14d6e Producer: Timon Woodward  Recorded by: Hamlin Studios Trailer editor: Ryan Faber DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Martin BrunetguestAlex Partridgehost
Aug 17, 20261h 0mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:08

    Trailer

    1. MB

      Getting a diagnosis of autism can be releasing and freeing, but doesn't necessarily mean, "Oh, now all my challenges are over."

    2. AP

      Ooh.

    3. MB

      For people who are exhausted by masking, sometimes it's worth thinking, "What would be the consequences if I never masked?" Because actually, that might be problematic in another way.

    4. AP

      When do you think this performance stops becoming an act and starts becoming necessary for survival?

    5. MB

      I think it becomes survival when there's constant low-level trauma and rejection that is eating away at you, or when you're having to do it so much, the space in your life to unmask is too limited. You are then left burning out.

    6. AP

      The moment the mask appears is only the beginning. The bigger question is this: what are autistic people actually trying to protect themselves from?

    7. MB

      They're trying to protect themselves from...

    8. AP

      Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Dr

  2. 1:08 – 6:32

    What Masking Actually Feels Like

    1. AP

      Martin, people think that masking is just pretending to be someone that you're not, but that's not what it really feels like from the inside, is it?

    2. MB

      No, [laughs] I'm sure that's not, and, and I think there's a lot more to it than that as well. So at, to some extent, people describe needing to behave in a certain way and almost like they're acting a bit. But I, I do think one of the really key things about masking, whatever we mean by that, and, uh, you know, we're gonna unpack that in this episode, is a lot more than just what you do, but it's also how you perceive the world and how you interpret the world. And I think if you just think about it as pretending to be someone you're not, like an actor, that can miss the whole part of trying to interpret what's coming to you and what you're perceiving, um, which is a, for me, a really key part of autistic masking.

    3. AP

      Yes. Yeah, no, it's lo- very interesting. I think we've got a lot, as you said, a lot to unpack.

    4. MB

      Yeah.

    5. AP

      And by the end of this episode, I really want people to understand what it feels like to have yourself completely stripped away as a result of years of masking.

    6. MB

      Yeah.

    7. AP

      And I really want people to remember one question that we're gonna come back to-

    8. MB

      Yeah

    9. AP

      ... at the end. After years of masking and losing yourself, how do you rediscover-

    10. MB

      Yes

    11. AP

      ... who you actually are?

    12. MB

      Yes.

    13. AP

      But before we get there-

    14. MB

      Yeah

    15. AP

      ... we're gonna start with the moment the mask begins.

    16. MB

      Yeah.

    17. AP

      And tell me about a patient that you've seen who you've never forgotten about their story.

    18. MB

      Yeah, yeah. So it's really int- I mean, there are so many patients, neurodiverse patients and, and neurotypical patients who, who I will never forget. Um, and, um, so I could have picked a lot of examples, but here I just wanted to think about actually, not everyone with autism either can mask or chooses to mask. And we've got to remember when we think about masking, that autistic spectrum is a very wide spectrum, and some at one end of that spectrum might be non-verbal or very limited communication and, and completely unable to mask, and, and we need to acknowledge that. I think there's also some people who, who never learn to do it, and I think this is quite important because we can see masking... You know, is it a good thing or a bad thing? Is something we're gonna talk about, and it, it's kind of neither, but sometimes the consequences of never learning to mask can actually be as problematic as masking all the time and exhausting yourself. So the patient I was gonna think about, um, [lips smack] was actually... So a, a, a man about 30 who had basically never learned to mask, and as a result, totally socially withdrawn himself. So had been kind of interacting socially a bit through school, some friends, but his friends had moved on, ended up basically just in his bedroom. And there's, there's a, a Japanese word for this, um, called hi- hikikomori, um, [lips smack] which is where people s- you know, dramatically socially isolate. And, and it's fascinating to think about this through the years, but it, it seems to be a bit of a new... Well, it's taking on a new shape, where people might withdraw to their bedroom, and they just interact online. And, and maybe there's masking online 'cause you can be a different persona online-

    19. AP

      Mm-hmm. Sure

    20. MB

      ... but that's how they interact, and, and their bedroom becomes both their, their safe space and their prison. Um, and there's definitely, um, it's much more likely that someone who ends up with, in hikikomori is autistic. Not exclusively, but there's definitely an overlap there. So what, what I really remember about this man who was coming to see me, taking a lot of courage to come and see me, hadn't seen a doctor for years, um, and, you know, clearly had thought that he might have autism, and we discussed that, and we did proceed to get a diagnosis, but then wasn't able to do anything about it. And so, you know, I often think about him still being safe but trapped, which is quite a hard thought, really. Um, you know, and, and it also illustrates, you know, getting a diagnosis of autism can be very releas- releasing and freeing, but doesn't necessarily mean, "Oh, now all my challenges are over."

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. MB

      So for people who are exhausted by masking, sometimes it's worth thinking, "What would be the consequences if I never masked?" Because actually, that might be problematic in another way, as it, as it is for many people.

    23. AP

      Being trapped seems to be quite a synonymous phrase-

    24. MB

      Yeah

    25. AP

      ... with the topic of masking.

    26. MB

      Yes.

    27. AP

      I suppose you could say he was trapped in his bedroom, but at least in there, maybe a little bit online, but at least in his bedroom, he was being himself. Many people-

    28. MB

      Yeah

    29. AP

      ... perhaps who are not in their bedroom, they are out in the world, perhaps they're trapped behind-

    30. MB

      Yes

  3. 6:32 – 7:48

    How Early Does Masking Start?

    1. MB

      you're not lying.

    2. AP

      When does it start?

    3. MB

      Yeah.

    4. AP

      What, what age do you think somebody starts to abandon who they really are?

    5. MB

      So [laughs] I'm still taking issue with abandoning who they really are. [laughs]

    6. AP

      Sure. Sure.

    7. MB

      But at what stage, what age do they start to, to recognize that they need to behave differently, um, which might give a feeling of abandonment. Um, I've... When I talk to people, and I've asked people this question, um, generally childhood. Um, and it, but it varies, so for some it might be, um, you know, primary school, some it might be, you know, more like secondary school, but usually relatively early when they start to pick up the cues that they're different, that they're not fitting in, that people aren't responding to them in the same way. Um, and then how much they then feel the need to mask, I think depends a lot on, on the safety of their environment and how, how people then respond to them being different. I, I think we'll probably come back to how much trauma, or the trauma of how people respond when you don't mask, I think has a, a big role to play for, for many people or for their experience of masking.

    8. AP

      Absolutely. Yeah, it's massive, and we're gonna come to that in a little bit.

    9. MB

      Mm.

  4. 7:48 – 9:26

    What Teaches a Child to Start Masking?

    1. AP

      What do you think teaches a child in those early formative years that maybe not abandon, but it, it, it almost, at least internally for them, it feels safer not to be-

    2. MB

      Yeah

    3. AP

      ... themselves?

    4. MB

      Yeah, I think that's a good description. I think how other people respond. You know, if, if other people didn't respond in a way that caused you problems or that young child problems, then I, I don't think there would ever be an issue. Um, so it's if people make you feel awkward or foolish because you laughed when no one else did, or you didn't laugh when everyone else did, um, if you're being told off, you know, teased by your peers, or constantly your parent, you get a feeling from your parents that y- you know, they're disappointed, they're not what they were expecting to have a child with these challenges, um, then that teaches you that you need to be, you know, behave differently. One, one person said to me, um, you know, they recognize that, that their being very sort of outgoing and, um, expressive made them unpopular, um, because they weren't doing it right, if you like, and so therefore they, their natural extrovert, outgoing personality-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. MB

      ... intentionally they made very much quieter and, and sort of introverted 'cause it felt safe, and that, that's sad to hear, isn't it?

    7. AP

      It's heartbreaking, and it, it reminds me of, I've told this story many times, when I was seven-

    8. MB

      Mm

    9. AP

      ... someone tapped me on the shoulder in the playground. I was minding my own business, and they said, "Alex, you could be one of the cool kids if you weren't so weird."

    10. MB

      Yeah.

    11. AP

      And it, it's always made me

  5. 9:26 – 11:22

    Can One Cruel Comment Change You for Decades?

    1. AP

      fascinated. Like, is it possible for one comment from a teacher, a parent, someone on the playground, to shape decades of behavior-

    2. MB

      Mm

    3. AP

      ... thereafter?

    4. MB

      I, I think it is, although probably it's in the context of lots of other comments that we haven't really noticed. Um, but also, I think sometimes one comment can, can affect you in a profoundly good way, or one interaction. I... There's a, a, a lovely quote, I'm probably gonna paraphrase it, but from Maya Angelou, who said that she'd learned that, um, that people won't remember what you said or what you did, but they'll remember how they made you feel.

    5. AP

      Yes. Yes.

    6. MB

      Um, which is a very powerful quote.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. MB

      And I guess, you know, when you were that age, that comment at that time made you feel devastated, if I remember from-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. MB

      ... what you described. Um, whereas there might have been another comment that was, was also negative, but you were distracted at the time, didn't really notice it in the same way. Um, so I think, you know, to blame that one child [laughs] for saying that one thing would be unfair on them-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. MB

      ... because probably there were loads of other negative things coming at you-

    13. AP

      Sure

    14. MB

      ... and that was the moment that they all struck home. Um, but also sometimes, you know, one comment from a teacher or, you know, a kind comment can actually be very protective over time-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. MB

      ... or one way that one person interacting. You know, so many people say, "Gosh, I look back and that primary school teacher made such a difference in my life."

    17. AP

      Right. Okay.

    18. MB

      Um, which is, so it can work both ways.

    19. AP

      So Fred, who is the little boy who made the comment, gets a free pass.

    20. MB

      Well, I-

    21. AP

      Or, or at least not totally responsible. [laughs]

    22. MB

      [laughs] Absolutely.

    23. AP

      I know he, you know, he watches. [laughs]

    24. MB

      [laughs] Yes. Yeah, we need to give him a bit of grace.

    25. AP

      Yeah.

    26. MB

      And he was probably only 16 or 17, so.

    27. AP

      [laughs] So the moment the mask appears is only the beginning.

    28. MB

      Mm.

    29. AP

      And the bigger question is this:

  6. 11:22 – 14:03

    What Are Autistic People Protecting Themselves From?

    1. AP

      What are autistic people actually trying to protect themselves from?

    2. MB

      I think when masking, particularly when it becomes a, a cage, they're trying to protect themselves from, I think, and, and I've always... I've got a caveat, this is m- me as a neurotypical person trying to understand rather than my own personal experience, but I think from rejection, from shame, from ridicule, um, from awkwardness, from making, you know, saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Um, but rejection primarily, and trauma.

    3. AP

      Mm. And do you think it is primarily driven by fear or more so just the wanting to belong?

    4. MB

      I think it's probably different for different people. I think in its worst form, driven by fear, um, and trauma and lots of negative times when people have felt rejected, that's when masking can become, I think, its most exhausting and most difficult. Um, but a wanting to belong, yeah, very much so. I mean, I, I guess that sort of relates to rejection again, doesn't it?

    5. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MB

      Um, but yeah, you may well learn as a child that the way to be welcomed by this group of friends is, is to behave in a certain way, which doesn't, which doesn't feel inherent to you, but you've learnt to do it, and that makes it work.

    7. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MB

      Um, and, and there are benefits from that. You know, you then belong, you know... And later on, whereas when you're an adult, you might have to mask again in order to get through a job interview or to function at work, and, you know, therefore you, you get to do a job that you enjoy doing. Um, so there can be benefits, but obviously it can come at a big cost, which we'll, we'll get to.

    9. AP

      I remember after that comment, "You could be one of the cool kids if you weren't so weird," I remember going up to the library, and I was looking out of the window and observing the other kids on the playground 'cause I was thinking, "What do I need to do to, to stop being weird?" And I watched... It was actually Fred, again. He, he did this, he, he sort of closed one eye really quickly and tilted his head to the side as he did it.

    10. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. AP

      And I remember asking my mum, "What does that mean?" And my mum said, "That's a wink." And I noticed that a wink-

    12. MB

      Yeah

    13. AP

      ... got a laugh and a positive response, and I remember practicing that in the-

    14. MB

      Yeah

    15. AP

      ... mirror that night and going into school thinking, "This is the day that I'm going to try-

    16. MB

      Be cool

    17. AP

      ... and be normal."

    18. MB

      Yeah.

    19. AP

      And I, and I, and I winked, and it got a not negative response.

    20. MB

      Yeah.

    21. AP

      And I remember thinking, "This is the start of-

    22. MB

      Yeah

    23. AP

      ... a whole new life of not being, feeling weird." And I, I suppose the question is, that obviously was a conscious decision, I suppose, to, to be less of who I really

  7. 14:03 – 16:29

    Is Masking a Choice — or Completely Automatic?

    1. AP

      was.

    2. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AP

      Does it always start as a conscious decision to mask, or can it be automatic for some people?

    4. MB

      I think it can be both. I, you know, I think a lot of autistic people would say, "Yes, I remember. That was when I made that decision." Um, but then, you know, it als- also have... Just hearing from a parent recently who said their, um, with their older child, they, they saw it as an, a significant change that happened when they were a little bit older, and it was a very clear conscious decision, whereas their younger child had probably been masking since a toddler. So surely that was just a learned-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. MB

      ... a learned action, a learned behavior. Um, and I, I think it's fascinating, you know, coming back to your experience, a lot of children, whether they're neurodivergent or not, think that being one of the cool kids is the thing you wanna do. Um, and later on when you grow up and you're more mature, you realize actually being the cool kid wasn't necessarily [laughs] the thing you, you know, the best place to be. Um, what you'd really love for an autistic child, and most children, is, is just to say, "Look, don't try and be the cool kid, but try and be, you know, just content with who you are. And actually, if, you know, if that's a bit different, you know, we can celebrate that." And that, obviously that, that's how you would really want an autistic child to learn to grow up.

    7. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MB

      But that involves growing up in a really safe environment where the adults in your world know that this is what you need, and, and that's, that's hard to get that environment or for parents to-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. MB

      ... to know that that would be the best way. But, you know, but maybe the more you have podcasts like this, the more parents with an autistic child can think, "Okay, this is how I can help them, um, to learn how to mask when they need to, but not feel they have to."

    11. AP

      I think it's heartbreaking 'cause, uh, with many people who listen and watch this podcast, at some point, as I explained with my story, the question turns into, "What do I need to do in order to not feel weird?"

    12. MB

      Mm.

    13. AP

      But over time, and really simultaneously, you're also trying to solve the same question, which is, "How do I be less of myself?"

    14. MB

      Yeah.

    15. AP

      Perhaps you don't actually realize that that is the question that you're also simultaneously answering at the same time, and the long-term effects of being less of yourself-

    16. MB

      Yeah

    17. AP

      ... I think can lead to a real identity crisis that can cause significant issues later on in life-

    18. MB

      Mm

    19. AP

      ... which we will get to in, in a moment.

  8. 16:29 – 19:54

    The Autistic Mirror

    1. AP

      If I put that mirror on the table in front of us, Martin-

    2. MB

      Yeah

    3. AP

      ... how important do you think a mirror literally is to an autistic person in their journey of masking? D- 'cause I hear stories of people looking in one and-

    4. MB

      Mm

    5. AP

      ... and like I did at home, practicing my wink.

    6. MB

      Yeah.

    7. AP

      Many people practice their smiles, their, their interactions. Is that a common experience?

    8. MB

      I, I think so. I, I wouldn't think it was universal, but I think at that time, you know, we talked about is it automatic or a conscious decision, and if you're gonna make a conscious decision of, "I want to do it differently," how do you practice that? [laughs] I mean, I, you know, I teach a lot of GP trainees about how to communicate and consult in a, in a consultation, and I'll say to them, "Look, try this phrase. See how it works."

    9. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    10. MB

      Um, you know, and they'll try it and think, "Oh, that worked," or, "It didn't c- quite come out. I better refine it or change my tone." And, and that's a really good way of improving your communication. So if you're an autistic person thinking, "I need to change my non-verbal communication," then yeah, looking at yourself in the mirror might well be the way you do that. Whether that is really helpful or not is another question, 'cause I can imagine you might try a facial expression in the mirror and, and then you go out and try it out in the real world, and it, it doesn't really work 'cause you haven't quite got it or you can't quite remember [laughs] how to do it. I think people, even if you're not looking at yourself in a literal mirror, I think often people are trying to reflect on how they're behaving and what they're doing in a constant way of-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. MB

      ... "Have I done that right? Should I do this? Where do I need to look?" You know, "Should I make eye contact? Is that too much eye contact? Should I stop? Shall I... Ha- do I break eye contact?" And that, that constant reflection Um, might not be in a literal mirror, but it's going on in their minds-

    13. AP

      Hmm

    14. MB

      ... all the time, which is-

    15. AP

      Yes, that's-

    16. MB

      ... why it can be so exhausting.

    17. AP

      Yeah, so interesting. You, as you said, even if it's not a, a real literal mirror, you're al- you're always observing, or I certainly was, always observing yourself, almost like you're, you're looking down at the social interaction as it's happening.

    18. MB

      Mm.

    19. AP

      And you're observing yourself and in real time collecting the data points of what you observe, what comments got a laugh-

    20. MB

      Yeah

    21. AP

      ... what caused the feeling of awkwardness, what caused a sense of unease, and you sort of build up this own hu- study of human behavior-

    22. MB

      Mm

    23. AP

      ... over time that's always being logged in your subconscious that you, it's new evidence to draw on for the next-

    24. MB

      Yeah

    25. AP

      ... social interaction.

    26. MB

      And to some extent, you know, that doesn't, that's okay and a normal thing, um, but there's a fundamental difference to someone with autism. So I, I will do that as a GP. I'll be with a patient, and sometimes I will deliberately make a pause a bit longer than I would feel comfortable with, but I know it's gonna work, or I would close the space between me and then, and I do it deliberately. But the difference is it's not exhausting for me, and I'm not having to do that with every interaction. There are just times where I think, actually, you know, they're looking a bit upset now. I will deliberately come forward because I know that that's helpful, and that's a communication skill that I've learnt. But to have to do that all the time in every environment and, and it never quite feel natural is what I think makes it so exhausting for autism-

    27. AP

      Hmm

    28. MB

      ... 'cause you're constantly going to that resource bank rather than ever just unconsciously

  9. 19:54 – 21:43

    When Masking Becomes a Survival Mechanism

    1. MB

      doing it.

    2. AP

      When do you think this performance stops becoming an act and starts becoming necessary for survival?

    3. MB

      Trauma and rejection's a really big thing there. So if, if you're an autistic person in quite a high-powered job and it involves social interaction, um, and you put on a, a persona to go and do that job, um, that might work really, really well and allow you to do that job well. The question in terms of survival is, what are you like when you finish, and are you then in a burnt-out wreck because that was so emotionally, emotionally exhausting?

    4. AP

      Hmm.

    5. MB

      Um, or are you constantly having to do it because at any moment you're in fear that someone at work is going to, you know, be negative, say something critical and, and 'cause you're not in a supportive environment? So I think it becomes survival when there's constant low-level trauma and rejection that is eating away at you or when you're having to do it so much and your ability to, to not have y- your space in your life to unmask, and we'll come to that term.

    6. AP

      Mm.

    7. MB

      Um, but it's useful enough, some issues with it. Um, the space in your life to unmask is too limited so that you, you're then left burning out bec- as a result.

    8. AP

      Yes.

    9. MB

      And then you're in survival mode.

    10. AP

      This is so interesting, Dr. Martin, and I feel like we're getting closer to that question we said at the beginning, right, how does somebody actually become closer to who they really are? We've spoken a lot about what masking looks like from the outside, but I think what's so important is to focus on what it can feel like from the inside.

    11. MB

      Yeah.

    12. AP

      If, if a patient walks into

  10. 21:43 – 24:38

    The Subtle Signs Someone Is Masking

    1. AP

      your clinic-

    2. MB

      Yeah

    3. AP

      ... what are some subtle signs, do you think, that somebody is masking?

    4. MB

      Yeah. So times when I start thinking, "Ooh, I wonder if, wonder if there might be autism here that's not diagnosed," um, I mean, some of it is, is fairly obvious, eye contact, but then someone who's depressed might not make eye contact with me. Um, and I was really thinking this through. For me, it's a bit about how you pass the baton on in communication. So, um, sometimes this can be cultural. So in some cultures, if you pass the, the talk, the baton of communication on, I would say everything I want to say, then I would signal to you that it's your turn, and it'd be like I would formally pass the baton on to you. You would take it and pass it back. Other cultures, I'm half Italian, and in, in Italy, a typical thing wouldn't be you wait till I'm finished, um, and wait till I pass the baton, but, but you would interrupt me and basically take the baton from me.

    5. AP

      Okay. [laughs]

    6. MB

      Um, and then I would interrupt you and take it back. And as long as we're both doing that and we know the rules, it's, it's fine. Um, and sometimes you get a cultural clash, someone who expects you to wait for them to finish before you grab the baton from them, would think you were very rude. But, and, and the person, the Italian person might think, "Oh, y- you're just so slow, and you never get on, and I... You know, why do you have to talk so much before I'm allowed to talk?"

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. MB

      But at least both know the rules.

    9. AP

      Sure.

    10. MB

      And it strikes me with autism that it's like there's an awkwardness with passing the baton on. There's sort of, is it now my turn to speak? But not only that, but have I, have I really recognized what you've said? And you just sense this, I'm not quite sure how that's landed with this person, or I'm not, you know... There, there are pauses that are a bit longer than you expect or, or suddenly an interruption that just seems out of nowhere. So it's, it's like the passing of the baton is, is not smooth in a way that as a neurotypical person, you just subtly notice it's a bit wrong. Um, which are then, I think is really interesting 'cause if you get to know that person really well, you can just not mind it. And if you, you know, have a friend with autism and, and you just get very used to actually this is how they are, and, and it's great because, you know, they can be who they are, um, and you ignore some of those things that wouldn't, might make you feel awkward 'cause you know, well, that's just this, you know, your friend.

    11. AP

      That's honestly the best analogy I've ever heard-

    12. MB

      Oh, well, yes

    13. AP

      ... in terms of tr- explaining the awkwardness of, of, uh, figuring out when it's your turn to speak.

    14. MB

      Mm.

    15. AP

      I've honestly never... Related to anything more

    16. MB

      Oh, I'm glad that, that landed. [laughs]

    17. AP

      I'm gonna be thinking about that all night.

    18. MB

      [laughs]

    19. AP

      I'm now... Everybody I suppose talking to me now, now I'm gonna be thinking about where are they holding their hand up-

    20. MB

      Yes

    21. AP

      ... with the baton. [laughs] Aside from the, is it my turn to talk yet? What am I going to

  11. 24:38 – 26:19

    Inside the Mind of an Autistic Person Who’s Masking

    1. AP

      say next? If we could listen to the thoughts of a typical autistic person as they are masking-

    2. MB

      Mm

    3. AP

      ... what do you think we would hear?

    4. MB

      I think we'd hear an on- an internal monologue of, what do I do now? Is this right? Should I do this? Should I do that? What do they mean by that? Which is on top of trying to hold onto the conversation that you're talking about.

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. MB

      Um, [laughs] and the more they're masking, the more they're having to do all of that, and therefore losing the, you know, the, the pleasure of the social interaction-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. MB

      ... um, and the good side of the social interaction. Um, I think there are then times when, you know, you might be in a party and an autistic person gets into a conversation that, with one person that they're really enjoying, and they're no longer having to have all those thoughts in the same way, and this is stimulating them and, and the mask can, can fall off for a little while. Um, but then that person goes to the toilet and they have to go and small talk with people and it all comes back in a big way. [laughs]

    9. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    10. MB

      I think, yeah, an internal monologue, and probably, I mean, I guess it depends whether that person has audi- ADHD as well, or AuDHD, as to how fast that internal monologue is. Um, but an exhausting internal monologue.

    11. AP

      Yes. I always, when I go to a social event, I typically, I, firstly, I dread going. I try to go as, as to as few as possible. When I do go-

    12. MB

      Mm

    13. AP

      ... if I meet someone that I gel with, I almost feel sorry for them because I'm glued to them-

    14. MB

      [laughs]

    15. AP

      ... from that point on.

    16. MB

      Yes.

    17. AP

      Uh, if they leave, I, I have to go 'cause the idea of kind of starting that-

    18. MB

      Mm

    19. AP

      ... process again and going through all of that early resistance of figuring out-

    20. MB

      Yes

    21. AP

      ... is this person good for

  12. 26:19 – 28:57

    The Aeroplane Analogy That Explains Masking

    1. AP

      me, a good fit? Following on from the conversation of socializing-

    2. MB

      Yeah

    3. AP

      ... is masking more like manually flying a Boeing 747? Every smile, every pause, every laugh, every sentence, you're consciously flying the plane.

    4. MB

      Yeah.

    5. AP

      I'll hand the plane to you.

    6. MB

      Yeah.

    7. AP

      How accurate is that analogy?

    8. MB

      I, I think there's a lot to like about that analogy, definitely, because you could definitely feel, you know, you go to a social event and it's like all the neurotypical people are just on autopilot, um, and it seems very natural to them.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. MB

      They're not having to think it through, and there you are, yeah, having to adjust everything manually. So I think that, that, that works a lot. I think the other layer to it, um, is it's not just about adjusting what you're doing manually, which might be what is going on inside the plane, but it's also how you interpret air traffic control and all the other signals you're getting from externally. Because... And, and this is where the word masking is a little bit limited in that it always implies that you're acting, you're putting on a persona, and that's part of it. Um, but an actor on the stage, um, is acting a role, but they're not having any difficulty interpreting what's going on around them. Um, and I think that's a huge part of autistic masking, that you're, you're also interpreting everything and having to do all that manually. Um, so I sometimes think, you know, uh, I like the Boeing analogy as long as it's also manually interpreting the code from air traffic control.

    11. AP

      Sure.

    12. MB

      I, I quite like the analogy of thinking it as a bit like you're translating into your, your primary language. You know, some people become fluent in another language, but they actually always translate to their own language and then back again to speak, and that must be so exhausting. They-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. MB

      ... they haven't learned how to think, this is me speaking as someone who's not bilingual in any way, shape, or form, but, um, it's so much more exhausting. So it's like an autistic person is having to translate and then translate again. Um, so it's a two, a two-way thing, very much so.

    15. AP

      I'm thinking of a, a, an aeroplane cockpit. Um-

    16. MB

      Mm.

    17. AP

      I guess if it's on autopilot, there's, you, you probably don't have to do too much. I'm not a... Don't know too much about piloting, but, uh, if, if it's not on autopilot, I can imagine there's hundreds of buttons and levers and tu- tu- turn dials and, and things you have to do, and it's almost like you're looking out at the window and you're constantly getting information, you're having to press buttons or turn levers in response. If you are having to fly a plane or mask manually for years-

  13. 28:57 – 31:08

    What Years of Masking Does to a Person

    1. MB

      Yeah

    2. AP

      ... what eventually happens to the person?

    3. MB

      I think it all depends on the degree of that, and the degree of which you have safe spaces where you can, um, not have to do that exhausting thing all the time. You know, it's a bit like burnout for anyone. If, if someone is working, you know, 90 hours a week and has very little downtime and checks their emails at the weekend and, you know, they're gonna be exhausted and burnt out. So people often talk quite rightly about autistic burnout, and, and basically that's saying that if you're constantly masking and constantly having to do that double interpretation of how to behave and how to interpret what's coming to you, that's very emotionally demanding. So if you're doing that and don't have much space to relax and not be under that pressure, then you might well burn out. What you come home to or what, what, what things are like at the end of the day when you're not in that environment is really key. For some people, that was so exhausting and draining that they are just emotionally wrecked at the end of it, or some people, it's exhausting and draining, but they come home to an environment where they're not feeling safe, and so therefore they come home and have to carry on masking, and I think that's when it's the most difficult and the most draining and traumatic for someone, and a lot of that comes back to, to safety

    4. AP

      Mm

    5. MB

      Um, there's also a challenge for an autistic person to think, well, one of the easiest ways to avoid that exhaustion is to never go out and socialize. Um, and, and for some people, it might be right to really reduce the amount that they socialize, but some people would say, "Yeah, but actually, you know, then I'm missing out, and I want to be part of the world." Um, so it's, it's perfectly good for them to go to an environment where they have to mask, and then, you know, they, as long as they can come home and have enough recovery time, if you like, and then they go and do it again. So it's just trying to get that balance right. Um, but that is so much harder if you're not in a safe

  14. 31:08 – 32:38

    Tiimo

    1. MB

      environment

    2. AP

      So sorry to interrupt your hyperfocus, but I promise it's worth it. Our sponsor is Tiimo, the best organizational tool for neurodivergent people. Tiimo wasn't named iPhone App of the Year in 2025 by Apple for no reason. It's the ultimate planning partner, gently helping you turn the chaos in your head into a day that actually feels doable, a day you might even look forward to. Tiimo is designed by neurodivergent brains for neurodivergent brains, and you can tell. It supports the stuff ADHD brains can find hardest, managing time, planning what needs doing, prioritizing tasks, staying focused, and actually finishing the thing. And the great news is Tiimo is now back on Android. The app on Android is still being built up to match the iOS experience with even more features in the works. So if you're an Android user and you've been waiting to try it, you can now use Tiimo's core features too, including your daily plan, multiple to-do lists, and AI prioritization to help you figure out what to focus on first. Tiimo offers a visual way to plan your day without relying on willpower, memory, or a million sticky notes, helping you break down your daily agenda into something clear, calm, and actually possible. Give it a go and use the link in my bio for 30% off. Just a note, though, the code only works in the web browser, not in the smartphone app. Back to the episode. Following on from that, Martin, we've spoken a lot about the, the mental effort, but I think there's a cost that is potentially bigger, but also

  15. 32:38 – 34:39

    The Biggest Cost of Masking: Losing Who You Are

    1. AP

      a lot harder to see, and that's identity.

    2. MB

      Yeah

    3. AP

      Do you know anyone who has masked so well and so proficiently throughout their life that they don't know who they are anymore?

    4. MB

      Yes, sadly. So I can think of a, a patient, um, in their, uh, 60s who, who has never felt safe, and I think that's the key thing. Um, so like I was describing just now, you know, work environment is, is hard work because of having to do all that masking the whole time, but home environment, family environment outside is, is... doesn't feel safe. So this person has got to a point of thinking, "No one knows who I really am." Um, whenever they're on their own, the emotions are huge and overwhelming, um, but they can't show that person because they've been so traumatized over the years that, um, that they can't show that to anyone else and, and then even get confused themselves about, "Well, who am I?" And, and miss being able to interpret the good things about them. So I, I think, I mean, sadly, absolutely, and I've... I'd say I've always mostly seen that when there's a lot of perhaps childhood trauma, but ongoing trauma, um, either because that childhood trauma's carried with them and they've never felt safe enough to trust the people around them. They might well have people who would be very safe, but they've never felt able to unmask with someone else-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. MB

      ... um, or because the environment they're in is still traumatizing and unloving, um, which is very hard.

    7. AP

      That begs the question, if somebody is, has masked for, for years-

    8. MB

      Mm

    9. AP

      ... and there is this big disconnect between the version of them that the world sees and, and the version that lives inside

  16. 34:39 – 36:18

    Why Masking Can Make Autistic People So Lonely

    1. AP

      of them-

    2. MB

      Yeah

    3. AP

      ... can that make a experience of loneliness-

    4. MB

      Mm

    5. AP

      ... for that person, even if they seem to have lots of friends?

    6. MB

      Yeah, completely, because, I mean, it might make you lonely because you withdraw from everyone, um, or it might make you lonely because even when you're with your friends, you don't feel that you could tell them what you're really thinking or feeling. And, and I think we all benefit from, from some relationships where we can really be who we are, um, and know that it's safe, that we're not gonna be judged, um, and we're just gonna be accepted and loved and cared for however we are. So you, you don't necessarily need many relationships like that, but you need some. Um, and if you don't have any, either because you'd never felt you could take the risk of being open like that with someone, um, or because the key people in your life, if you do do that, don't know how to deal with it, or, you know, if you're in a, if you're in an abusive home situation, that's tremendously difficult. All about safety. I mean, a lot of mental health's about safety. A lot of anxiety is about safety, and for sometimes someone who masks and is autistic, the only safe space that they feel they have is when they're on their own, but sometimes that's then when the emotions that they've suppressed in order to mask come overwhelmingly in. Um, so even that place isn't very safe because they're just overwhelmed by their emotions on their own

    7. AP

      Perhaps the greatest irony of masking is that the better somebody becomes or is at hiding their autism, the, the less likely they are to be able to ask for help.

  17. 36:18 – 38:58

    Why So Many Autistic Women Are Missed

    1. AP

      Why do you think, following on from that, autistic women are often diagnosed so late?

    2. MB

      Yeah. So this is really interesting. I think some of this is historical. I w- you know, I was thinking about this and- If, say, you're a, a woman aged 50, around the menopause, then if you think back to what was going on in the world when you were at school, so you would've been 12 when the film Rain Man came out.

    3. AP

      Yes.

    4. MB

      Now, Rain Man, um, fascinating in terms of history of autism, lots of controversy around it. At the time, it was very much an acclaimed film, and at the time it definitely raised awareness of autism. But it raised awareness of male autism, um, and a particular type of autism where someone's got sort of some intellectual functions that are, you know, are very almost magical, um, which is not most people's experience of autism. And then there's controversy about neurotypical people playing neurodiverse roles and all of that. But just think where the world was when you were 12, and most... You would want to diagnose autism before 12 these days, um, so it's not surprising it was missed then. Um, and even if you're, if you're 40 now, well, when I... I've been a GP for 26 years, so you'd have been 14, wouldn't you, when I qualified?

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. MB

      Well, when I qualified, autism, no one talked about autism. Um, it was a... If they did, it was a boy thing. It wasn't... I mean, even in adult men, you didn't really think about it. You, you couldn't have got an autistic diagnosis in an adult, and it was very stereotypically male. So again, it's no surprise that a 40-year-old woman wouldn't have been picked up at school. So there's this, there's this big bump of, of people who, um, of women particularly, who just got missed, or this hump of diagnoses that we're, we're sort of yet to make. So there's playing catch-up. I think the really important question now is, well, how do we catch up those women that have been missed if they want to get a diagnosis? But are we as good now, and I don't know the answer to this, but are we as good at picking up autism in girls, young girls now as we are as boys? Because if we are, then this problem will become historical. Um, but if we're still missing girls, then there'll be women in 30 years' time who are still have been missed.

    7. AP

      I've spoken to many autistic women on this podcast and just generally out and about, and many have said that they've been labeled as high functioning. And having spoken to them more, what they actually unpicked from that is they think that high functioning really, in many of their cases, just means high masking.

  18. 38:58 – 41:21

    Can You Look Successful While Falling Apart Privately?

    1. MB

      Yes.

    2. AP

      Like, is it possible for somebody to have a successful career, a successful family, a successful business, but privately they're falling apart?

    3. MB

      I mean, absolutely, and I, I just wanted to pick up on this, particularly in women and masking before I come back to that question. That's right, because women... Generally, it's felt women probably mask more than men, are more likely to mask or, or, and quite often can make a very good, successful, [chuckles] um, attempt at it. And, and I was just thinking, "Well, why might that be?" Um, and I, I'm sure there are lots of reasons, but partly I think how we respond to an autistic woman may well be different to how we respond to an autistic man with the same traits, um, because that's often the case generally with how we describe women compared with men. Um, and you know, if you just think about some of the terms that are, are thrown at women compared with the male terms. So a man, we might describe a man as being a real dog, but a woman is a bitch. You know, a man is a real bull, but a woman is a cow.

    4. AP

      Mm.

    5. MB

      A man, oh, he's such a fox, but a woman is a vixen. You know, one is, can be a positive, powerful thing, and the other, they're universally negative. You know, a man can be assertive, a woman is bossy.

    6. AP

      Yes.

    7. MB

      And, and I haven't explored this, but I, I'm sure just 'cause of the way society is, I mean, it's misogynistic, um, and often describes women, there will be equivalents for autism. You know, maybe a man is quirky and a woman is, is, is just unusual or strange or, um, a man's got lots of hobbies. We expect a, a man to have hobbies, don't we, um, in our gender-stereotyped society and, and maybe a woman is, is obsessive. You know, you, you could imagine women being described in ways that makes them need to mask much more than a man, um, which is a societal question. Um, so I just wanted to raise that. And then coming back to your-

    8. AP

      Mm

    9. MB

      ... can you be really successful? Um, I mean, absolutely, and I think if you... or whatever we mean by high functioning, if you're going to function at a very high level in a ne- more neurotypical dominant world, you're almost certainly gonna have to mask

  19. 41:21 – 43:39

    Code-Switching: What It Is and Why Autistic People Do It

    1. MB

      to do that. And one term I really liked that I've come across recently is code-switching. Um, I don't know if that's a term you've-

    2. AP

      No. What, what does that mean?

    3. MB

      So it, it's not exclusive to neuro, um, diversity, but it's where we, we switch our code to do a different role. So, you know, when I go to work as a GP, I definitely code switch to some extent. I start acting like a GP. Um, or if you're a leader in a company, you know, you're the boss, you switch into the boss mode. Um, and so to be successful, you often will need to, to switch differently. And I, you know, I know, uh, sometimes you might interact... Like, if I phone my wife at work, um, where she was in a, you know, very, um, very much the boss in that environment, she would just sound different. She would... She was in a different mode-

    4. AP

      Right

    5. MB

      ... a different code because that's how she did her job really well. Um, and so that's a normal thing. But an autistic person has to do it more, and w- you know, they won't just code switch to do their high-powered job, but they might have to code switch, you know, when they're doing small talk at a party or when they're with family members at a family gathering, and they're constantly having to do that and, and rarely can relax. So So yes, a high-functioning autistic person may well have got really good at code-switching, um, masking, and maybe they also have to do it in their family, and maybe they also have to do it, you know, in their s- social environment, and that can then mean the burden is, is so much that, that everything does fall apart. I'm thinking now of a late diagnosed, um, woman who, yeah, family fell apart, doing amazing at work, but, you know, it all didn't work, and I mean, she had ADHD as well. And, and again, I remember... I've known her for a long time, and just both of us coming to the realization that she obviously had ADHD, and thinking, "Why did we not twig this years ago?"

    6. AP

      Yes.

    7. MB

      Well, because we didn't think about it years ago. Um, and yet, now it's so blatantly obvious. [laughs] Um, and it's similar with, with autism. You sometimes think, "Gosh, I've known you for years, but I haven't seen you for a couple of years," and, and now we're all thinking of this so much more, and it- and it's so blindingly obvious. Why, why were we so blind? [laughs]

  20. 43:39 – 46:24

    Why an Autism Diagnosis Can Be So Emotional

    1. AP

      Why do you think an autism diagnosis can be the most emotional moment in someone's life?

    2. MB

      Yeah. I think it's really interesting 'cause I've seen different reactions to a- an autism diagnosis, particularly when it comes late. I mean, if, if you're diagnosed as a child, um, then, you know, it'd be very different. Some children don't like it, actually, um, kick against it, but, you know, maybe it, it just becomes part of your understanding of who you are, um, or you've just always known that you're autistic. If you're diagnosed with autism at, you know, think of a, um... This is a, a male patient who diagnosed in 40s, I think, um, and actually it really did help things click into place. Um, and, and fascinating in a sense that he hadn't thought about it before, when actually probably people who knew him well had probably thought about it for years, [laughs] but maybe not suggested it to him. Or actually, I think maybe, you know, a bit of resistance initially. Um, and for him, very much, I mean, his autistic brain likes to understand and, you know, sometimes attention to detail can be a real feature, so actually that really helped, and it was like a, like a new level of understanding. Um, but then I can think of a, a woman in her, in later life coming and saying, "I think now understanding autism, I probably always had autism, and should I go for a diagnosis or not? Would, would it help now?" And, and, and a little bit of a sense of grief, of, "If only I'd known this all my life, it would've made a whole lot more sense. Would I have made the same decisions? Would, you know, would people have understood me bit differently?" So sometimes it's real relief and new understanding. Sometimes it can be grief for what you've lost. Um, sometimes I've seen anger. You know, I think quite a lot of autistic women, if they've had a lot of trauma and maybe a lot of self-harm, may well have ended up with a diagnosis of, um, borderline personality disorder or emotionally unstable personality disorder. Those, those are both labels that I really struggle with. You know, maybe you've been given a diagnosis of anxiety and depression or a personality disorder and now later in your life someone says, "Actually, this has always been autism," you might well be angry and think, "Well, why didn't someone tell me that years ago?"

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. MB

      Or, "And now you're slapping a new label on me. What am I meant to make sense of this?" So it could be relief, it could be grief, it could be anger, um, which is why seeking a diagnosis isn't for everyone. [laughs] Um, you know, some people say to me, "Well, yeah, I probably have autism, but I don't want another label on my record," and that, that's okay, and actually you just wanna have better understanding.

    5. AP

      Let's go back to the question I asked right at the beginning of this episode,

  21. 46:24 – 49:05

    How Do You Find Yourself After Years of Masking?

    1. AP

      Dr. Martin. How do you know who you really are after decades of masking?

    2. MB

      Yeah. I think... It's such a good question. I think it would be tempting to say, "Well, well, you haven't been your authentic self all those years. You've gotta unmask. You've gotta learn how to unmask, and then you'll find yourself." And, and I just... Might be an element of that, but I just don't think that's respectful to the person and their, their life journey. You know, who, who are any of us really? We're a collection of memories and experiences and, you know, how we've lived our life, and to, to say, "Well, that wasn't authentic, it doesn't count," would be awful. Um, so I think the first thing I'd want to say to someone is, "Look, there, there was nothing in- unauthentic about you when you masked. That was your authentic self learning how to function in the world. Um, but maybe you paid a price for it, and maybe there are aspects of who you'd really like to be in your future that you feel you've suppressed and that you might like to now explore and allow to rekindle and, and come alive a bit more. You've always been yourself. It's always been you doing everything that you've done. Um, you might just like to allow parts of yourself to have more breathing room and parts of some of the demands you put on yourself to maybe be a little less." Quite often people say, um, people might say their children, um, "I don't mind what they do, as long as they're happy." And, and actually I have a real problem with that, because for me, happiness is a, a fleeting feeling. You enjoy it when it comes. It's lovely feeling happy. But contentment, and contentment with who you are, that's a real joy of life, I think, if you can achieve contentment, whatever your circumstances. So I'd say don't try and ask yourself, "Have I been lying all this time? Have I been inauthentic?" But more, "Could I learn more how to be accepting of myself and content with who I am, the journey I've been on, and who I'm continuing to be?"

    3. AP

      I've spoken to some people who ha- and they're very fearful.

    4. MB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AP

      Or, or they've said, "I'm, I'm quite frightened to unmask-"

    6. MB

      Yeah

    7. AP

      ... because even though that might be what many people say you should do, you should try and be more your authentic self, a, a consequence perhaps to them of unmasking is you might have to leave a friendship group behind-

    8. MB

      Mm

    9. AP

      ... or you might have to leave a relationship, or you might realize that something that Gives you something to do with your time isn't actually in alignment with your values

    10. MB

      Yeah

    11. AP

      And the benefits of having those things in their life could actually be greater than the knock-on effects of unmasking

  22. 49:05 – 52:42

    Why Unmasking Isn’t Right for Everyone

    1. MB

      Yeah

    2. AP

      Should everyone try to unmask?

    3. MB

      I think, um, I don't... There's definitely no shoulds about it. Um, it's would it be helpful for you or not? And, and to sum up, what would you lose? Because if you might lose a friendship group, but actually when you step back and think about it, that wasn't a friendship group that gave you life because people were always demanding that you fitted in with them, then maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing. Um, but on the other hand, if to unmask you would have to withdraw from the world completely, that could be a big loss. Um, if unmasking with your, your partner means they then can't cope with you, um, that could be a big loss. But on the other hand, maybe there's a problem with that relationship. Um, so that would be a very personal decision. I think, I think what I'd say to someone is not that it's a matter of you must unmask, but is there breathing space in your life where you're not having to code switch, to mask, where you're not having to put all that effort in, um, and where you can recharge?

    4. AP

      Mm.

    5. MB

      Um, and if there is, then, you know, maybe just carry on as you are. But if there isn't, then how do you find that space? Um, if, if there could be, but you've never had the courage to ask, you know, maybe you might have a friend and actually you could have conversations with them and say, "Look, I know I'm often having to pretend that I fit in," or, you know, "I don't want to appear awkward, and so I do these things when I'm around you." And that friend, if they're a good friend, they'll say, "Look, it's not awkward at all. I've, you know, I've always known you were a little bit different, if you like, but I've always loved you for it. You can be as awkward as you like. It's no big deal with me."

    6. AP

      Yes.

    7. MB

      You know, "Just relax, be however you like, and I will always unconditionally be your friend. Um, and, you know, if appropriate, I will, you know, I will love you." Um, if you can find that, that's gold dust, and then, you know, you can really just relax with that person, recharge with that person, not feel like you've got to put that effort on. So, and then maybe you can then go into work and mask so that you can function.

    8. AP

      Yes.

    9. MB

      Um, and I, I think one challenge as well for an autistic person is to work out, if I avoid going to places so I don't have to mask, am I making a wise decision because actually I've been socializing far more than I have capacity for, or am I using my autism, and I- I say this reservedly because I don't want to be judgmental, but as an excuse to avoid something that makes me anxious. So anxiety will often make us want to avoid. So people, um, whether they're autistic or not, may well find they have social anxiety, and going to a party requires a lot of effort because of their anxiety. And anxiety will also, "Well, just don't go. That's the safest thing to do." Um, but if you avoid everything, anxiety just gets more powerful, um, and takes more hold of you. So generally, you've got to be very careful with avoidance, with anxiety. Um, but over-burdening yourself with situations where you have to mask all the time can be exhausting as an autistic person, but an autistic person might just be anxious. [laughs] So that's a real challenge to work out.

    10. AP

      But if someone wants to answer a, a very, probably

  23. 52:42 – 54:30

    How to Start Unmasking Safely

    1. AP

      oversimplified question of how do I unmask-

    2. MB

      Yeah

    3. AP

      ... where do they begin?

    4. MB

      Find a safe space, so that's not on your own, because yeah, you can unmask on your own, but you're probably used to doing that. Um, how you really unmasking would be unmasking with someone else and taking that risk. So I think you'd need to look for people in your life where you can do that safely, and there might well be a lot more people that you can do that safely with than you think. Um, if you're in a good supportive work environment, you might say that, you know, you might chat to one or two colleagues and say, "Look, I think, you know, I've, I've never told anyone, but you know, I'm sure I have autism." You might not even be diagnosed. "And, and sometimes I'm having to mask." And you probably find your colleagues would go, "Oh, well, you know, we all knew that years ago. You know, we, we just love you who you are and accept you as you are."

    5. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    6. MB

      You know, "Just, you know, just be however you like and, and actually it's working, it's not an issue." And you might just go, "Ah, what a relief." Um, but it needs to be safe, you know, because if you say if you, you know, we'll take a risk, you, you will have to take a risk, and if you take that risk with someone and you know, actually that's a toxic relationship or they're just abusive or mean to you, you'll, you'll wanna go and hide back in your shell and mask as-

    7. AP

      Yes

    8. MB

      ... doubly. So look for, for safety, but look for safety that with other people. I mean, you might start with how do I unmask on my own? Maybe you, you don't even do that, but really it needs to be with other people, I think-

    9. AP

      Yes

    10. MB

      ... in order for it to be, to be making a difference.

    11. AP

      Fantastic closing advice.

  24. 54:30 – 59:16

    The “Washing Machine of Woes”

    1. AP

      Thank you, Martin. I want to move on to the most often emotionally unpredictable part of the show, and that's-

    2. MB

      Yeah

    3. AP

      ... the Washing Machine of Woes.

    4. MB

      Yes. [laughs]

    5. AP

      Which is essentially the audience questions.

    6. MB

      Yes.

    7. AP

      And they're inside a washing machine because for me it represents memory loss, and it doubles up as a public service announcement for everyone who's listening if they've got damp clothes in their machine to, to go and empty it. Uh-

    8. MB

      [laughs]

    9. AP

      I do ask everyone actually 'cause I, I always struggle to empty the machine or remember to after the load's finished. Do you, do you relate to that? [laughs]

    10. MB

      No, I, our washing machine makes a beeping sound when it finishes, which reminds me of hospital bleeps.

    11. AP

      Okay [laughs] .

    12. MB

      And I, so I'm very intolerant to it-

    13. AP

      Right

    14. MB

      ... and I have to go and turn it off.

    15. AP

      [laughs]

    16. MB

      And the thing I forget is to take the tissues out of my pockets before it goes in the, in the washing machine.

    17. AP

      Oh, okay. Interesting. It's interesting, yeah. Mine, mine does make the beep as well, actually, but I, I, it doesn't have the same effect-

    18. MB

      No

    19. AP

      ... for the reasons you probably said [laughs] .

    20. MB

      Yeah, I've been conditioned to not like beeping sounds.

    21. AP

      Yeah. This week, Martin, in the washing machine, the first load, someone has asked, "What's one sentence you've heard from an autistic patient that you'll never forget?"

    22. MB

      I'm actually gonna not say a patient, but a, a person. So, and actually the person I'm gonna quote here is Chris Packham, um, the wildlife presenter-

    23. AP

      Ooh, yes

    24. MB

      ... who's very open about his own autism. And what I loved when he did a program on autism was he said, "When you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person." So autism is so, it is individual to every individual person, and we've always gotta remember that. Yes, we can learn about autism in general, but never forget you've got an individual, um, and it's what autism means for them that's so important.

    25. AP

      Fantastic. Big fan of Chris Packham, too.

    26. MB

      Yeah.

    27. AP

      The next question in the Washing Machine of Woes is, "What's the biggest myth about masking that even professionals still get wrong?"

    28. MB

      Well, I, I think this actually comes down to the word mask. I think we imagine, you know, Greek actors in Greek tragedies where they'd put a mask on and play a role, and that misses the fact that it's as much to do with interpreting the world around you as it is putting on a mask and, um, and how you project yourself. So it's, it's two-way, and that's so vital to understand, and that word mask kind of misses it. And so sometimes people will say, "Well, we all mask." You know, neurotypical people mask. And, and if we're just thinking the Greek actor thing, then yes. You know, when I, when I go into work, I'm definitely acting in a way of what I say with a patient, how I use body language in order to try and get the best communication. Um, but I have no trouble interpreting their communication most of the time. [laughs] Not perfect, but-

    29. AP

      [laughs]

    30. MB

      ... but it, it's, it doesn't drain me to do that.

  25. 59:16 – 1:00:37

    What I’d Tell My Younger Autistic Self

    1. MB

      we open it.

    2. AP

      [laughs]

    3. MB

      Okay. "Dear little one, I know why you're trying so hard. You've learned that the safest way to survive is to become whoever everyone else needs you to be. So you'll watch people carefully. You'll copy them. You'll laugh when they laugh. You'll hide the parts that make you different. And little by little, you'll get so good at pretending that one day you'll look in the mirror and wonder where you went. But here's n- what nobody tells you. The goal was never to become easier for other people to understand. The goal was to understand yourself. The parts you're trying hardest to hide are the very parts that will one day help other people feel less alone. So stop measuring your worth by how well you fit in. The right people won't love the mask. They'll love the person underneath it. And when you finally find him, promise me you'll never lose him again. Love, your future self."

    4. AP

      Wow. Amazing.

    5. MB

      Very-

    6. AP

      Lovely tone to end on

    7. MB

      ... yeah, I mean, that really fits with... I don't know if you try and fit them in with- [laughs]

    8. AP

      We try our best

    9. MB

      ... with basically what we were gonna talk about.

    10. AP

      We put a brief out for the-

    11. MB

      Yeah

    12. AP

      ... for the next episode theme.

    13. MB

      Um, but that so fits with everything we've been discussing-

    14. AP

      Absolutely

    15. MB

      ... really, doesn't it? Yeah.

    16. AP

      On behalf of everyone listening and watching, Dr. Martin, trying to understand themselves, thank you so much.

    17. MB

      Thank you very much for having me, Alex. Been a pleasure. [outro music]

Episode duration: 1:00:38

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