Ellie Middleton details impact of late AuDHD diagnosis

Ellie Middleton 0:00 I think there's always a big wonder before you figure out that you're neurodivergent of, like, is everyone finding it this difficult, or is it just me? Ellie Middleton is back

Alex Partridge 0:09 Autistic ADHDer, author, and TEDx speaker And a passionate activist for the ADHD community With a following of over 300,000 people

Ellie Middleton 0:18 When everyone says like, "Oh, school's the best time in your life," and you're like, "Well, if this is as good as it gets, then I don't really want to [laughs] go any further, to be honest, 'cause this is awful." My probably survival mechanism in masking was like, oh, well, if I just become friends with the popular people, then it'll be fine, 'cause everyone will like me then. I will turn myself into the version of myself that I think the people that are around me at this time want me to be.

Alex Partridge 0:41 What's the cost of that, do you think, to someone's self-esteem?

Ellie Middleton 0:43 You don't let people in, because you don't want anyone to see you in that state. Like, you know if I am just blunt, rude, and I just stand up and walk away, I don't explain to anyone where I'm going, or I'm crying on the way out, or whatever it might be, then they're gonna think bad of me. So you don't ever show them that side of you.

Alex Partridge 0:59 If there was a, a book called How to Set Boundaries, what would the first page say on a very basic summary?

Ellie Middleton 1:05 I think a good one was-

Alex Partridge 1:09 This episode is dedicated to anyone who has a graveyard of domain names. Just a gentle reminder that tapping the subscribe button helps us here at ADHD Chatter much more than you might realize. As our audience grows, it helps increase our chances of booking even more brilliant guests full of amazing stories and helpful information. We're so proudly building a community here, and each and every one of our subscribers are valued members of our exclusive ADHD club. The more our community grows, the less we feel alone. So please subscribe. It will help us remind you that you're not broken, that you are and always were enough. Ellie, welcome back.

Ellie Middleton 1:56 Thank you.

Alex Partridge 1:57 I think the studio's looking a little bit more chaotic since you were last here.

Ellie Middleton 2:00 It is. It's a lot more ADHD energy in here, but I like it.

Alex Partridge 2:05 So these are all the ADHD items of past guests, and, uh, yours is under there. Fascinated to hear about it. Um, how have you been since, since you were last here?

Ellie Middleton 2:16 Yeah. I'm good. I was just thinking, I feel like it's the most ADHD thing ever, the amount that we've both done in less than a year [laughs] since I was last here. Yeah, it's been a busy year. It's been... I feel like I, I was... I've been reflecting on it quite a lot now, I think, going into the second book, thinking, like, how different I feel to going into the first book. I feel like I've... I feel a lot more like a human being, I think. I think I was very stuck in ADHD mode, like going, going, doing all these things, achieving all the things. And I think actually over the last six months, I've worked more on being a human being [laughs] which has been nice.

Alex Partridge 2:50 I mean, it is, it sounds like what you've achieved since, A, since you were diagnosed, and I suppose just briefly for the probably few people who don't know who you are in the community,

Alex Partridge 3:04 can you briefly explain the diagnoses and where they came throughout your life?

Ellie Middleton 3:09 Yeah. So I was diagnosed with both autism and ADHD when I was 24. Um, so up until that point, I, like, through my teenage years, I was always misdiagnosed or diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, panic disorder, and anxiety-related depression. So that was sort of what everything was put down to. And then, um, I was sort of stuck in cycles basically where I would have, I think probably a lot of people can relate to this, but essentially now looking back, I would have, like, six months of ADHD being at the forefront and doing everything and being bubbly and wanting to achieve everything and wanting to do all these things. And then I would have a crash and burn, which was probably it catching up with the autism and the autism going, "We cannot do this. We cannot do this," and have these big sort of like, yeah, I think looking back, burnouts, but what felt like mental health crises at the time. I would sort of dropped out of school, then had to, like, leave jobs, and then had to come home from traveling, and then was sort of stuck in this cycle. And then, yeah, when lockdown happened, I think everyone had a bit more time to reflect, and I was sort of in the brain space of thinking, hmm, I don't think anxiety is actually what's going on here, because I'm doing everything that I'm told to do for anxiety, and I'm still stuck in this cycle of whatever I do, I always just go back to that black hole of burnout or low mood or whatever. Um, and then was, yeah, so sort of in that head space of thinking something else is going on here, but I don't know exactly what that is. And then had a sort of by chance conversation with a counselor who just asked me the question, "Has it ever been looked into why you take things so literally?" Um, and my answer was, "No, it hasn't, but I think I know what you're hinting at." And then that sort of set led me to hyper-fixating, as we do, on autism. Then that led me to ADHD. And then, yeah, I got my ADHD diagnosis first, 'cause that one felt, uh, like a more tangible outcome, 'cause I was in, like, not a very good place. And I was thinking, well, if I can get my diagnosis, maybe the medication will help me feel better. So I got that one first in October 2021, and then autism the following April, I think, so April 2022. So yeah, a couple years ago now.

Alex Partridge 5:06 The misdiagnosis of a, of, of a, of an anxiety disorder sort of rung, hit me quite then. I, I was misdiagnosed with GAD-

Ellie Middleton 5:13 Yeah

Alex Partridge 5:13 ... generalized anxiety disorder when I was 15.

Ellie Middleton 5:16 Yeah. Me too.

Alex Partridge 5:16 Put on anti-anxiety. [laughs] So many of us seem to have been. Um, why do you think that is? Why do you think so many people get misdiagnosed with an anxiety disorder?

Ellie Middleton 5:25 When... Me and my mom have spoken quite a lot about this, 'cause so I was with CAMHS from 15 to 19, the Children and Adolescents Mental Health Service. That was where I got diagnosed with all of that fun stuff and put on antidepressants. Um, and I, like, look back really frustrated at being like, how was I sat there in front of a psychiatrist every week, a psychologist, a key worker, all of these people, and nobody once considered, like, autism or ADHD? And my mom sort of counters slightly with, "Well, that's all they could see, like, the way that you were presenting, because you were so adamant," like you were so heavily masking, I guess, by that point. You weren't presenting outwardly with anything other than these panic attacks, these, you know, sobbing episodes, low mood. Like, that was the only thing that was visible, so that's what they saw, so that's what they sort of gave you an answer for, which I think does make sense. I think it is still frustrating of, like, well, did they not think to wonder why a 15-year-old girl was feeling that way, um, when from an outsider's perspective there was nothing, like, happening in my life that would cause someone to feel that overwhelmed and that anxious and that depressed? But yeah, I think probably a lot of us that maybe mask a lot of the more obvious signs of autism and ADHD, it sort of, it's so, I guess, like, held inside like a volcano, and the only-

Alex Partridge 6:46 Mm

Ellie Middleton 6:46 ... explosions that come out are these, like, panic attacks or whatever. So that's kinda what they see, and that's kind of what they, yeah, then diagnose. But I do think it's really, really common. Like, anxiety and depression are really big ones. I think a lot of people, like, sort of struggle with, like, bipolar misdiagnoses, BPD. I think, yeah, you hear a lot of story... I think eating disorders as well are a really big one, 'cause, uh, again, that's maybe a presentation that someone sees, you know. The doctors see this person is restricting what they're eating, but they m- maybe don't stop to think, well, what is causing them to... You know, is it a control thing? Is it a sensory thing? Is it a textures thing? Is it an overwhelmed thing? So yeah, I think a lot of the time maybe up until now, um, they've diagnosed those little spurts of-

Alex Partridge 7:28 Mm

Ellie Middleton 7:28 ... that come out once we've hidden as much as we possibly can, rather than looking, well, what's behind all of this.

Alex Partridge 7:33 You mentioned masking there. Um, I mean, it's a huge topic. So many of us mask. And I think that looks differently to everyone. And your first book was, was called Unmasked. But if we go back in time and into your earlier years, were there, were

Alex Partridge 7:52 there different iterations of masking in your childhood?

Ellie Middleton 7:54 Yeah. I think if you look back at, like, photos of me from sort of school all the way up until sort of very recently, it's like a different human every year, and I think my way of trying to fit in or belong or survive was I will turn myself into the version of myself that I think the people that are around me at this time want me to be. Um, so I would like... It, it's actually, like, quite cringey to look back now, but I would get, like, literally, like, the same haircut and the same hair color as my friends had or wear the same clothes that they were wearing, and I guess that's sort of a thing generally in teenage girls, that there's, like, trends and patterns and stuff. But I would literally, like, morph myself into the group of friends that I was trying to fit in with at that time. Um, and I think, yeah, for me, that's... I've always been very malleable, I guess-

Alex Partridge 8:47 Mm

Ellie Middleton 8:47 ... of just, like, what, what can I do or who can I be or what can I look like that's gonna make me have the best chance of fitting in? And I think some of that is conscious, and some of that when you're younger is, like, slightly subconscious, that you just do it without even realizing that that's what you're doing. But yeah, I think, like, visibly, definitely, like, looking back at photos, like, it's, like, wild how different I can go from, like, year-

Alex Partridge 9:11 Mm

Ellie Middleton 9:12 ... to year to year to year. Um, even, like, the other day when they, um, announced the Oasis reunion, I shared some photos on my stories of, like, at peak Indie Ellie when I was-

Alex Partridge 9:21 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 9:22 ... going through my indie gig Dark Fruits phase. Um, and people were like, "I can't believe that's you." Like, people who are good friends with me now, "I cannot believe that that's you," 'cause I, I just look completely different. And I think, yeah, visibly, and probably, like, interests and hobbies-wise as well.

Alex Partridge 9:36 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 9:36 I think I probably have, like, latched onto interests that other people around me were interested in, which I probably wasn't really that interested in personally.

Alex Partridge 9:45 Are you gonna try and get tickets for Oasis? [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 9:47 Yeah, it's gonna be very stressful. I'm literally already, like, arming myself up for the weekend. Um, but there is actually, um, fact of the day for people, there is actually a line that you can ring at Wembley for accessible tickets, and if you've got an access card, which you can get for being autistic or ADHD, you can phone that up and get a plus-one carer ticket. So.

Alex Partridge 10:05 Oh, brilliant. I'll put a link to that in the description.

Ellie Middleton 10:07 Yes. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 10:08 Uh, just to stay on masking for a second, because ma- what you were saying there about changing who you are in order to please the people you're with, I mean, I- my accent changes all the time.

Ellie Middleton 10:18 Yes.

Alex Partridge 10:18 Less so now, but when I was younger, when I was around my school friends who were quite well-spoken, I would... I was very... I would pronounce my Ts and everything.

Ellie Middleton 10:25 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 10:25 And then I was with a particular different set of friends, my voice would completely change, and it w- it was compl... It was very awkward sometimes when those groups met-

Ellie Middleton 10:34 Yeah

Alex Partridge 10:34 ... and there would be comments from one side saying, "Why are you putting that weird voice on?" And I think so many people will relate to what you've just said, that kind of mirroring, mirroring other people in order to be more palatable to-

Ellie Middleton 10:46 Yeah

Alex Partridge 10:46 ... to meet the, the taste of... And I suppose

Alex Partridge 10:51 what's the cost of that, do you think, to someone's self-esteem?

Ellie Middleton 10:54 Pretty heavy. I think I am realizing now how ingrained that is, that people-pleasing, because I think when I first got, um, diagnosed, I sort of had this like, "Oh, I know who I am now. Like, this is me. I've figured it all out, like woo-hoo, I'm unmasked. Like, we can leave all that behind." And then I think actually looking back at a lot of the last three years, I almost just started masking as a different character rather than actually unmasking. Like, I thought that I was unmasking, but I was actually just masking as the person that I thought the neurodivergent community wanted me to be.

Alex Partridge 11:33 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 11:33 Like, I guess with, like, even, like... I obviously like bright colors, dopamine dressing.

Alex Partridge 11:37 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 11:37 But I think it almost became, like, this character of like, oh, Ellie Middleton, she wears bright clothes. She d- like, I always have my fidget toys, but it was almost this, like, like I was wearing stuff for talks or videos that I would never wear in my normal life, and it was like, oh, well, maybe this isn't unmasking then, 'cause I'm still, I'm still maybe trying to be a different person, but I'm... That person is just slightly different from the person that I was pretending to be before I got diagnosed. And I think, yeah, so much of it runs so deep that you don't even realize that you're doing it.

Alex Partridge 12:08 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 12:08 And I think, yeah, I think it's... you don't really have much sense of- ... who you are. That's one thing I really struggle with, like, in therapy is, like, I really struggle to have a sense of who I actually am as a person, because that changes so much depending on who I'm with. And I've sort of identified, like, I'm probably closest to Ellie, real Ellie, when I'm with, like, my brother probably is the main person, or my family. Um, but I just, like, it's not a conscious decision to not be that person with other people. I just can't be that person with other people. And, and I think it's, like I was actually saying recently, that I think it's quite sad, 'cause I actually prefer the Ellie when I'm just with my brother or with my family. Like, I can be quite funny, and I can say things and be carefree, and I can be a bit silly, and I can have a nice time and be fun. And other people would actually probably like that version of Ellie more than the version that they get. But there's something, I guess, like, a fear in you that is like-

Alex Partridge 13:02 Mm

Ellie Middleton 13:02 ... "Oh, I don't, I can't be my real self because if I'm my real self, then if they reject me, then that's personal." Whereas if I'm this, I don't know, person who's very careful about what they say, and I'm this very, like, uh, controlled character, then if they reject that character, they're not rejecting me. So me is still safe. So I think it's really difficult to, yeah, to realize how deep that actually-

Alex Partridge 13:23 Mm

Ellie Middleton 13:23 ... that actually runs, and how many things it shows up in as well. Like, I think we think of it on, like, I don't know, the big scale of, of masking and people pleasing, but it's like sometimes it is so, like, your interests could be that you've just picked those up 'cause other people were into those or, like, yeah, I think we don't realize, like, how deep that actually runs-

Alex Partridge 13:44 Mm

Ellie Middleton 13:44 ... a lot of the time. I think it's gonna take a lot more undoing than I thought it was gonna take.

Alex Partridge 13:49 You've just reminded me, I remember you said last time, on the one hand, a part of you wants to unmask, but on the other hand, unmasking is making you very vulnerable to RSD because you're not making yourself more palat- palatable to the other person.

Ellie Middleton 14:03 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 14:03 Therefore, you're increasing the chance of, so you've got that internal conflict. Do you think there are some situations where masking is a useful and a necessary tool to protect yourself?

Ellie Middleton 14:15 I think so, and I think, like, definitely for a lot of, like, marginalized people as well, I think that's the case. Like, there's a lot of conversation, um, with, like, the Black community of, 'cause maybe I can unmask and, I don't know, stim in a way, and I'm sort of a young, quite small white woman, so it's not that threatening if I'm doing something. Whereas if a 6'5" Black man is doing that same action that I'm doing, he can't unmask safely 'cause people are gonna see that in a very different way to they see me doing that action. So I think a lot of different factors come into that. Like nes- like, yeah, necessity of masking 'cause it's like those people don't have the option of unmasking. But I think for all of us, I think, like, a lot of things, maybe I know that I sort of have to mask to get through it, but I'm gonna be thankful that I did get through it, I guess. Like, even as a content creator, like, I'm always masking sort of to a level on screen.

Alex Partridge 15:13 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 15:13 I think it's funny, like, me and my friend Charlie talk about it quite often. When you're going back and editing my videos, I can sort of, like, see the mask almost, like, coming on and off. It's like you're in, like, talky-

Alex Partridge 15:25 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 15:25 ... talky, talky mode, and then you have a breather, and it's like, it goes on and it comes back on. Um, and I think, yeah, it's like, well, that's sort of masking to a level, but it's what I do for my job, and it's, I want to create content, so it's kind of worth it for me to do that.

Alex Partridge 15:39 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 15:39 And, um, yeah, I think just for whole different reasons, it's not that we're, like, ever saying to anyone, like, "You can never mask again. You've got to be completely unmasked all the time." I think it's just maybe being more, um, like, careful of, okay, when is it gonna benefit me to use this, and when do I want to use this skill that I've learned, and when actually is it gonna become exhausting and drain me-

Alex Partridge 16:00 Mm

Ellie Middleton 16:00 ... and make me burn out, and all of the above.

Alex Partridge 16:05 When was the last

Alex Partridge 16:06 time you felt truly unmasked, but in that moment you felt also deeply uncomfortable?

Ellie Middleton 16:15 Ooh. I think a big one that sticks out is, like, I have been on quite a lot of solo holidays, and the airport, more coming home always I find really, really difficult because, you know, airports just aren't fun anyway. But I think in the UK you sort of have the safety of, like, my sunflower lanyard. Like, I know that sort of hopefully if it works, people will accommodate me, and if I am in distress, they'll be there to look after me. Whereas, like, I was flying, like, the big one that sticks out is flying back from Egypt, and there's, like, the language barrier, the noisiness of the airport. The systems just sort of, like, don't work in the same way. You're doing all of these random extra steps of security that you didn't know were gonna happen.

Alex Partridge 16:58 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 16:58 Um, and I started having sort of, like, a bit of a shutdown, but then was like, this is so terrifying 'cause I am a young woman on my own in an airport, and I don't really feel, like, I was crying, didn't really feel able to speak. I was like, that's such a vulnerable position for me to be in, which I think you don't really get hit with those moments often. But I think at, like, at that moment, I was like, "I don't have it in me to mask right now." Like, I'm just so overwhelmed, so drained. But in doing that, that's, you know, not a nice situation for me to be in, that I'm in a foreign country on my own in an airport where, like, I guess the stakes are higher in terms of, like, if you're not behaving in the right way in security or whatever it might be. Um, yeah, and there was that sudden moment of like, oh God, I'm actually, like, this is not a nice feeling right now. Like, I wish I could switch it back on and, and go back to, like, just sort of n- not looking like anything's going on from the outside.

Alex Partridge 17:52 Mm. I was reflecting on that question, and just you talking then reminded me of, of a, a similar, a sim- similar s- situation probably many of us have been in. Say you're around a dinner table and your energy disappears, and you've suddenly not got any energy to put on that mask.

Ellie Middleton 18:07 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 18:07 And you're forced to be your truly 100% unmasked self, but you're trapped-

Ellie Middleton 18:13 Yeah

Alex Partridge 18:13 ... at a dinner table, and suddenly peop- you're conscious of people thinking that you, you've gone awkward, or you're conscious of people thinking you've gone quiet. And it's such a contrast to you, the version of you that showed up an hour ago.

Ellie Middleton 18:23 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 18:24 Do you relate to that at all?

Ellie Middleton 18:25 Yeah, definitely. I think there's, like, um, I can think of- Uh, probably about a year ago now, I was dating somebody, and it was like the first time that I was meeting all of his friends, and it was I think a couple of the friends' birthdays, and it was like a barbecue and then going to different pubs and then going into town. And I'd been so happy with how like the first half of the day had gone 'cause I was like, "Oh, I've met all these people and they seem to like me," and like it's go- g- you know, I'm having a really nice time and this is a new group that I'm going to be a part of. And then it got to, I don't know, whatever time in the afternoon, evening, and I just felt that-

Alex Partridge 18:57 [laughs] Yes

Ellie Middleton 18:58 ... z- no, I'm empty now. And then it was like, oh, well, I don't know them really well enough for them to, you know, if I just go, then that's rude, and I don't, I don't want to like have this, I'd, well, I don't have it in me to have this full-on explanation now, but then I also don- And I think you're sort of like starting that freeze mode of just like I need to go now, but I don't know how to explain that I need to go, so I can't go either, so I'm just gonna have to... I think it's a really weird feeling. It's actually sort of around that was one of the tips that I wrote in the book is having like a code word or a code signal or something. So say you're going to that dinner party with your partner, you can sort of say to them, "Okay, when I need to go, I will tap you on the arm three times" And then your partner can be in charge of, "Oh, we're gonna have to get off 'cause the parking meter's running out," or, "We're gonna have to get back 'cause the dog needs..." I don't know. They can do the explaining and get the way out of it-

Alex Partridge 19:47 Mm

Ellie Middleton 19:47 ... without you having to be able to really communicate it in that time. So I think that's like one of the really good tips that I've learned along the way that, um, yeah, I think is helpful in that situation 'cause I, I think it is that, um, I think what's really difficult is you, you don't let people in because you don't want anyone to see you in that state. Like, you know if I am, if I am just blunt, rude, rude, air quotes, Ellie, and I just stand up and walk away, I don't explain to anyone where I'm going or I'm crying on the way out or whatever it might be, then they're gonna think bad of me. So you don't ever show them that side of you, but it's like actually to let people in, you have to show them that side of you.

Alex Partridge 20:28 Mm-hmm.

Ellie Middleton 20:28 And then they'll be able to accept that side of you and then, you know, it's, it's sort of like a self-fulfilling cycle because if you never give someone the chance to respond well or to respond nicely or to respond with compassion and care to that version of you, then you never get that feedback to know that it's okay to do it again. So you're sort of stuck in that of like, "I can never, ever let anyone see me that way or never behave that way."

Alex Partridge 20:46 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 20:46 'Cause you don't have any proof that it will go well.

Alex Partridge 20:51 God, the amount of parties I've left without saying goodbye just because my social battery's-

Ellie Middleton 20:55 Yeah

Alex Partridge 20:55 ... gone from 100 to, to nothing quite suddenly, and then I felt really awkward and I just don't have it in me to go up to people and say goodbye, and I just quietly leave.

Ellie Middleton 21:03 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 21:04 Which is fine, but then the consequence of that is then I'm at home-

Ellie Middleton 21:07 And then you're overthinking as well.

Alex Partridge 21:08 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 21:08 Thinking, "Oh, they all hate me and I can never go again 'cause they all think I'm rude."

Alex Partridge 21:11 Yeah. If I'm a, I... Do you have any tips for s- for, for s- for someone in that situation who's at home overthinking, thinking everyone hates them because they left early?

Ellie Middleton 21:22 I think like it sounds so simple, and it never feels that simple, but I think just like bite the bullet and just have, just send the text. Just say, "Sorry I had to go."

Alex Partridge 21:31 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 21:31 "Not feeling great. Had a lovely night. See you soon." And I think that sounds so simple, but I am definitely the worst for, I think it's like a similar thing to when you don't text someone back, and then you realize four days later that you haven't texted someone back, and then you know that you should just text them now and say, "I'm so sorry, I completely forgot."

Alex Partridge 21:50 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 21:50 But you feel bad, so you don't send the text, and then it gets to like four weeks-

Alex Partridge 21:53 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 21:53 ... and you still haven't sent the text, so you're just like, "I'm just gonna never have to be able to speak to this person again 'cause I've not acknowledged the fact that I've ignored them." I think it's the same thing of like if you were to just send that text straight away, even though it feels uncomfortable in that moment, you've dealt with it then and it's gonna be fine. Like, no one's gonna come back and be like, "I hate you because you didn't text me back for four days." They're gonna go, "Okay, I get it. It's fine. Don't worry. Everyone's busy."

Alex Partridge 22:13 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 22:13 Like, "I've done the same thing a million times." And then it's never thought about ever again.

Alex Partridge 22:18 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 22:18 Whereas, yeah, you sit there and you overthink it and you overthink it, and then I think I'm definitely really guilty of, um, distancing myself or like just sort of cutting myself off from people because something like that's happened. Like, there's not even been an argument or a disagreement or anything.

Alex Partridge 22:33 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 22:33 It's just like I have felt like I've left it too long to explain the situation and where I've not replied or whatever it might be, and then I'm like, "Oh, well, it's, it's just gone now, so it, that's, you know, we're-

Alex Partridge 22:44 Mm

Ellie Middleton 22:44 ... we're just not really friends anymore." And I think I look back now, and I was actually thinking it the other day, a girl who I used to be close friends with when I was, I don't know, about 20, um, a picture popped up of like another friend with her and they were like at a party together. And I was thinking, like, we never fell out. Like, why are we not like fri- we don't follow each other anymore, we're not friends anymore? And it was like probably just a situation where I hadn't replied in two months-

Alex Partridge 23:08 Mm

Ellie Middleton 23:08 ... and then I felt awkward about it, so it just fizzled apart. So yeah, I think the tip is just send it. Just send it. And 99% of people I think are never gonna respond badly to you saying, "Sorry I had to leave, not feeling great."

Alex Partridge 23:22 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 23:22 Or battery ran out or whatever it might be. 'Cause I think like if you think of it the other way around, like you always feel awkward to send it, but if someone sent me that text, I would never, ever be like, "Well, that was rude." I'd never think... I'd just be like, "Oh, yeah, of course. No worries." Like-

Alex Partridge 23:34 Mm

Ellie Middleton 23:35 ... do what you need to do.

Alex Partridge 23:36 God, it's like that internal contradiction of finding it really challenging and, and laborous to maintain friendships but also then feeling quite lonely when I see-

Ellie Middleton 23:43 Yeah

Alex Partridge 23:43 ... a group of friends together out on holiday together, whatever. Um, yeah, no, it's good advice though just to, just to bite the bullet and send that, send that text message.

Ellie Middleton 23:50 I think it's a lot easier said than done as well.

Alex Partridge 23:52 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 23:53 But I would, I would like to do that in a dream world. I'm not very good at actually doing it in action. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 23:58 So I suppose a, a, an

Alex Partridge 23:59 additional question to the, the first part of that is when was the last time you felt truly 100% unmasked and felt accepted and liberated?

Ellie Middleton 24:10 Ooh, I think definitely like with my brother is a big one. Like, I think we are both sort of in a similar journey of that unmasking, which is like nice to be able to go through together. Um, and we've always had like very similar interests of like we love going to the football, we love going to gigs, and I think actually those environments, um- ... are sort of strangely really comforting and safe environments as someone who's, like, unmasking. 'Cause I think they were really comforting as someone who was masking, because it's really easy to fit in at a football game or at a gig, 'cause you just have to do what everyone else is doing. Like, you're not, there's no eyes on you. You're not really being perceived in any way. You're just part of a crowd that are all cheering when something good happens or booing when something bad happens, or getting angry at the ref [laughs] when he makes a bad decision.

Alex Partridge 24:55 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 24:56 And at a gig, you're just dancing and singing to the music. So I think they are, like, really, they were really safe environments to be in as a masking person, 'cause it's like, "Oh, this is so easy. I just have to follow what everyone else is doing."

Alex Partridge 25:06 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 25:06 "I don't have to, like, think about it." But I think equally, like, it's so nice and easy to unmask in those environments, because it's like, "No one's watching me. I'm not being perceived here. Everyone's watching the band on..." We went to, actually, we went to a gig, um, on Saturday, and w- one of our favorite bands was, like, one of the quite early on support acts. It was like an outdoor day-

Alex Partridge 25:25 Mm

Ellie Middleton 25:25 ... gig. And yeah, one of our favorite band, The Caves, were on quite early in the afternoon, so we went for that, and then we saw that, and we were having a good time. Um, and then it started raining, and it was still probably, I think, three bands until the main, the main, like, headline band were coming on. And we were sort of like, "We could just go. We don't have to stay in this loud... We've seen our favorite band."

Alex Partridge 25:46 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 25:46 "We'd like to see the other bands, but we're not that bothered."

Alex Partridge 25:48 Mm-hmm.

Ellie Middleton 25:48 So we, like, went to see the band that we wanted to do. Both of us have, like... My brother's been sober about 18 months now. I've done two months sober. So we didn't have a drink, didn't feel like we had to have a drink to be in the crowd. Saw the half-an-hour set of the band we wanted to see, got some food, went home.

Alex Partridge 26:03 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 26:03 Out of there, not stressed, not... I think that was like a, a really nice feeling of like, oh, I actually, like, enjoyed myself in that environment, which I love going to gigs, but they are very draining. It's loud. It's long. It's busy. There's people pushing into you. Whereas, it's like, actually, I can do it in a way that suits, I can... It's not embarrassing if I left early. I've gone, I've got what I wanted out of it, and I think that's a, yeah, big one. I think that was sort of, we, we're quite a frequent of a, of an early exit, me and my brother. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 26:31 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 26:31 Um, but yeah, I think definitely with him is, like, where I'm most myself.

Alex Partridge 26:34 Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. I think it's good to, to normalize leaving gigs or theater shows or whatever, a cinema, halfway through. Um, I, the problem I have though, I think, is when you do that kind of s- thing, although it might be the best thing for you, it can often be quite confusing to other people who you're with-

Ellie Middleton 26:52 Yeah

Alex Partridge 26:52 ... and create a feeling of being misunderstood, unless you articulate the process-

Ellie Middleton 26:59 Yeah

Alex Partridge 26:59 ... what's going on in your head behind that decision. And I think being misunderstood is, is such a common theme in the community, um, for a million reasons, which, which we could go into. But what I'm more

Alex Partridge 27:12 interested in to know is what do you think the toll someone has to pay for being misunderstood? And from your experience, how does that toll increase as they enter adulthood?

Ellie Middleton 27:28 Yeah. I think so many of my friends who are also, like, late diagnosed or, like, neurodivergent become sort of like natural over times 100 explainers because of being so misunderstood, um, for such, like, in so many different scenarios. I think, I actually find it really interesting as, like, a speaker and as a writer, um, and as a content creator, a lot of people compliment me on how well I explain things. And I'm like, "Well, yeah, I've had to learn to explain things really well, because I've been misunderstood at every single opportunity [laughs] my whole entire life."

Alex Partridge 28:07 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 28:07 But like, one example is I use analogies quite a lot. Um, and I love, like I love an analogy, and people will always be like, "Oh, that was really, that was really helpful. Like, thank you for using..." One that I've been using quite a lot recently, when I'm talking about the executive functions, I say that it's like air traffic control for your brain. 'Cause I'm like, in the same way that air traffic control makes sure that everything takes off at the right time, and there's no crashes, and everything's running smoothly, that's what your executive functionings are doing for your brain. And so often people are like, "Oh, thank you for, like, using that analogy. It's really made it make sense for me." And I think that's a learned skill of, okay, how can I say this in a way that this person has the least possible chance of misunderstanding? Because we've been misunderstood-

Alex Partridge 28:45 Mm

Ellie Middleton 28:45 ... so much. So I think in that way, I've almost, like, had a positive come from it, even though it's not very nice, but it's like I actually now, um, yeah, have learnt to, to really precisely communicate what I want to, to minimize that risk of being misunderstood, which is helpful to me now, which is not a very nice thing-

Alex Partridge 29:03 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 29:03 ... that I've had to learn how to do. But I think another big one, I don't know, for me, is if I'm misunderstood in any way now, it triggers me so much, and I think it's like, it's not just that misunderstanding, it's the fact that it then triggers all of those previous misunderstandings. Like, I hate it when somebody, um, I don't know if there's like a, a disagreement or someone sort of like assumes that I have bad intentions or something like that. It, it, like, really sets me off, and I'm like, actually, it's not this misunderstanding that's bothering me that much, it's the fact that it's like number 800,000 of being misunderstood, um, in time. So yeah, I think, I think with age is a, is an interesting one, 'cause I think a lot of people say to you and they're like, "Oh, when you, when you get to 30, you won't care what people think," or when you get to whatever age, like you s- you know, that's the best time. Uh, which I think, I don't know, I think is true and not true. Like, I think I don't, I don't... I think when you're a teenager or when you're like younger, everything feels like the end of the world, doesn't it? So every misunderstanding, you maybe feel a lot deeper. Um, whereas I think probably now it's, I'm slightly getting towards, well, it's their, if, you know, their issue. If they, if they think I'm a bad person, then they're wrong.

Alex Partridge 30:22 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 30:23 I'm not a bad person. To a certain extent, I think there's still, like, I think a lot of us have a lot of, I guess, wounds from, from all of that sort of trauma beforehand. So I think- Like, in an ideal world, it'd be nice to say, "Oh, yeah, I don't care what people think anymore. If they misunderstand me, they misunderstand me," but in reality, it does s- still hurt, but I think maybe not to the extent that it used to when I was younger. Um, but I d- I guess that is from a whole array of things, I guess. Like, I think this journey career-wise has sort of forced me to get to a point of more self-acceptance, I guess.

Alex Partridge 30:57 Mm-hmm.

Ellie Middleton 30:57 'Cause it's like, well, I can't be taking everything to heart all of the time 'cause I'm busy. I've got stuff to do. [laughs] I've got conversations to have. So yeah, I think, yeah, I think maybe moving towards that, um, less of an impact, but probably not quite there yet.

Alex Partridge 31:13 Does your...

Alex Partridge 31:14 Following on from what you said then, does your dual diagnosis, do they sort of pull you in different directions sometimes? We- we've had a few guests come on with, with AuDHD, and, and for, one of them with the most illus- illustrative of, uh, analogies said, um, "It's like two siblings dragging each other across the room by their hair." And d- do you agree with that? How would you describe these two sectors of the brain colliding on a day-to-day basis?

Ellie Middleton 31:43 I think that's a very, that's a good analogy. Love an analogy. I think I have always felt as though there's al- al- I guess kind of like a similar, the sib- similar to the sibling thing, but I've always felt like one's in control at a time. Like, I've... When I sort of said about growing up, it was almost like I had six months of ADHD Ellie, and then Autistic Ellie would, like, get caught up.

Alex Partridge 32:04 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 32:05 Um, and I felt like it sort of kind of goes in, like, periods, like seasons almost, of like I'll have a more ADHD... I know that's sort of ridiculous. They're both there all the time.

Alex Partridge 32:16 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 32:16 But I seem to have seasons where one's more, like, at the forefront than the other. Um, and yeah, I dunno. I think some things, it's really frustrating 'cause it's like you're, like, I am setting myself up for stress or failure. Like, a big one is, like, um, with... Like, 'cause today, for example, I've not really had the stress today, but a lot of the time, I would, like, get to today, and I would be like, like the autistic, Autistic Ellie would be so stressed out 'cause I'd be like, "Oh, I don't know what time I'm supposed to be there. I don't know what I'm supposed to do when I get there. I don't know, you know, I don't have their number. I don't know who I'm supposed to ask for. I don't know if I'm meant to go inside reception or if I'm s-," and I'd be so stressed out. But it's because of my ADHD that I've not thought about any of those things until the morning of. So I would get really stressed that I don't have this information. But I've not asked, I've not remembered that I need to ask anyone for any of this information until the morning of.

Alex Partridge 33:08 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 33:08 I think that really, like, frustrates me. So I've, I, I've actually, like, sort of put into place now, 'cause I've done that so many times where I've, like, woken up on the day or the day before stressed out and had this massive meltdown of, like, I don't have all the information that I need, and I don't, I don't feel ready, and I don't have photos of the space, and I don't know what time I'm getting picked up or all of... You know, I don't what time my train is or any, all of these hundreds of things that you stress out about when you don't have all the information. But now I've actually said to my management, like, I won't remember to ask you for these things that I need, but I do need them, or else I will stress out to the max on the day. So they've now, like, automated a reminder to ask for those things on my behalf before, which is, like, the best thing ever.

Alex Partridge 33:51 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 33:51 Um, and sort of I guess even before that, I've now made, like, an access rider that we send to anyone that I'm working with. So the first time that, like, a brand or whatever wants to work with me, they get all of the information about this is everything that you might possibly need about how to, like, what I might need from you or, you know, I might need this information ahead of time. I need an agenda. I need this. I might be direct. I need you to be direct with me. All of this stuff, they get that. So it's like, I think, yeah, they're very clashing, and they all, they set each other up for failure, my autism and my ADHD.

Alex Partridge 34:24 Mm-hmm.

Ellie Middleton 34:24 So I have to find ways of, like, bringing a third par- br- bringing the mum into the room to split the parents up-

Alex Partridge 34:29 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 34:29 ... uh, to split the siblings up, basically.

Alex Partridge 34:31 Yeah.

Ellie Middleton 34:32 Um, yeah, I think, yeah, for me, there's normally one that's more prominent at a time, but that's my most frustrating thing, is like, or, like, I'll get really stressed out. The autistic side of me will get really stressed out if I can't find something, but then the ADHD side of me doesn't put things back where they belong-

Alex Partridge 34:47 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 34:47 ... 'cause I'm always in a rush and I'm always running late and just throwing stuff wherever it needs to be. So I think it's, like, stuff like that where it is just, like, two very opposite needs. Uh, and it's normally the ADHD that's causing more trouble for the autism.

Alex Partridge 34:59 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 34:59 I think it's almost like that one's the sensible sibling-

Alex Partridge 35:01 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 35:01 ... and this is, like, the naughty, chaotic person that's just like, "Ha, I don't care about the rules. I'm gonna throw stuff everywhere. I'm gonna leave stuff to the last minute." Like, yeah.

Alex Partridge 35:09 Mm. Why are some of us like that? Why, why this whole... I mean, I'm, I'm the same. If I've got a presentation, preparing for a podcast, unless it's the night before or the train journey to the event, it's like dragging a bag of bricks behind me. I'm just unable to, to, to start the task.

Ellie Middleton 35:24 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 35:24 I think, and I can't even imagine if the stress that would come if I had a corresponding part of my brain that was so craving the organization that is needed or required to, to do something in advance. So, um, yeah, and a fantastic illustration into the window of, of what, what it must be like to living with, with, as an AuDHD person.

Ellie Middleton 35:44 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 35:45 Last

Alex Partridge 35:46 time, you mentioned, um, something fascinating. You said you had a, a, a six-month pendulum of swinging from, I think you said depression, and then as- it would swing back to ambition and optimism. Um, and it's been a year since you were last on, so I was just wondering if you had any, um, experiences of that pendulum and, and if it had cropped up and, and how.

Ellie Middleton 36:10 Yeah. I think... So we recorded just before my first book came out.

Alex Partridge 36:17 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 36:17 After that book launch period was, like, it was obviously amazing, my first book coming out in the world. I'm so grateful that it happened. I loved having the events and meeting people, but it took it out of me big time. Like, I- During like the couple of weeks of like the book launch, I was like r- ringing my mom on FaceTime absolutely sobbing. I can remember saying, "This is supposed to be the happiest time of my life, and I cannot enjoy it because I'm exhausted." Like, I was so, so burnt out, and when I'm burnt out, the main thing is, yeah, it's just... From an outside perspective, if someone didn't know that I was autistic or ADHD, I present as if I am severely, severely depressed, I would say. Like I'm just sobbing. I lose interest in everything. Like I struggle to do, like get in the shower. I struggle to feed myself. Like, I just, yeah, I have a really sort of like low time. Um, and I think, yeah, it was a really... I was really frustrated I think 'cause I, yeah, it was that feeling of like, this is supposed to be the best time. I should be so happy. Like this is it. Like this is it, and I can't enjoy it 'cause I'm just exhausted. Um, so I think there was a big sort of pit of that in, in there. Um, I think since, I think this year, I sort of, yeah, got to the point where I was like, I can't keep doing this to myself. It's, I'm the one that's taking on so much. That gets me to those points of sobbing and not being able to j- enjoy it, and I can't keep doing this to myself. So I think this year I've had to make a very, very conscious effort to do a lot less. Like, it has been very purposeful doing less. Um, and I think I've probably felt the rewards of that, that I've not had as many big... Like, I don't think I've had a big, I can't think of a big sort of like depression phase that I've had in that time. I think I've had... There's been obviously times when I've done too much, and I've had a big sob, and I've got overwhelmed. Um, like the most recent one was when I was recording the audiobook. Um, have you recorded your audiobook yet?

Alex Partridge 38:21 No, next week. Next week.

Ellie Middleton 38:23 [laughs] I'm trying, trying to put you off.

Alex Partridge 38:24 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 38:25 For me, as someone that's autistic and ADHD, it's one of the most difficult things I have done. Um, maybe you're more like, like good for it than me 'cause you spend a lot of time, like you're recording episodes and talking all the time. But for me, sitting in a room and talking all day, it's drained me so, so much. Um, and that was another one where I was... The theme is that I ring my mom and just, "I can't do it anymore. I just am so fed up."

Alex Partridge 38:50 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 38:50 "I just can't do it. I just want everything to stop and leave me alone."

Alex Partridge 38:54 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 38:55 Um, but that was, that was another one, but it was more of a, a couple of days that I was just exhausted after it, and then I was back. So I think, yeah, I think there's still, those fluctuations definitely still happen, and the burnouts still happen. But I think with a lot of very sort of conscious saying no to things and doing less and doing things that I know, um, make me feel better-

Alex Partridge 39:18 Mm

Ellie Middleton 39:18 ... like exercising more, uh, going out for a walk, eating, I've eaten a lot better than I definitely was this time last year. Um, like making a really conscious effort to look after myself has lessened the intensity of the, the lows, I think.

Alex Partridge 39:33 I was quite looking forward to r- recording my audiobook next week [laughs] .

Ellie Middleton 39:36 Yes, I hear. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 39:36 But you've given me a dose of reality. You've done this twice before, so, um, it's good to have an experienced person telling me what I'm in for. I'll have my mom on speed dial. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 39:44 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 39:45 We've got a fascinating couple of pages more of

Alex Partridge 39:48 questions to go through, but first, I wanna find out what your ADHD item is. I'm desperate to know what's underneath that cloth. Way. [laughs] It is... Well, I'll let you explain what it is.

Ellie Middleton 40:01 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 40:01 What is it and why?

Ellie Middleton 40:03 We have got fizzy bubblegum bottles. So the story behind it is, when I was in sixth form was when like my mental health was worst. So I eventually ended up dropping out. But like in the period to that, like leading up to that, when I was really struggling to go to school, um, we sort of like got to a point where I would like go in for one lesson, or I would go in for the morning, and then I'd come home for the afternoon. Um, and there was a sweet shop, like an old sweet shop in the town where I went to school, um, and fizzy blue's my favorite. So my mom used to go to the sweet shop and get me like a bag of fizzy blues, and she'd put them in my blazer pocket. So she was like, "If you just like have a fizzy blue like every five or 10 minutes, and then once you get to the end of the packet, it'll be time to come home." So I guess it was that like treat of motivation of like, okay, if I just get through this thing, like it's gonna be difficult, but I've got this nicety to add to it that's gonna help motivate me to get through it. Um, so yeah, I think it's always like a nice memory of like that I was able to get through something or, to a certain extent, that was quite tricky. But I think it's like a lesson that I've learnt. Like I say quite a lot, it's like my ADHD is a toddler, and I have to just give it what it wants. So if that means I have to like, I don't know, be a parent that's like, you know, role playing or promising a McDonald's on the way home or promising sweets or, you know, giving it that treat, a little bit of what it wants for it to give me back what I want in return.

Alex Partridge 41:21 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 41:21 So yeah, fizzy blues are sort of like a visual representation of that for me. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 41:24 I've just realized I've given you like a sealed version, which is really cruel. Do you wanna open it and have one?

Ellie Middleton 41:30 No, 'cause then I'll end up eating the whole thing. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 41:32 No. [laughs] So the fizziness element, is that, is that or-

Ellie Middleton 41:34 Yeah, I guess that's another one as well

Alex Partridge 41:36 ... would like a, a, as, you know, a bald [laughs] cola bottle have the same effect?

Ellie Middleton 41:41 Yeah, I guess so. Um, I, I think it was more just that like they were my favorite, so it was like the motivating factor. But then actually, I think that a lot of people do say about like sensory seeking.

Alex Partridge 41:49 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 41:49 You, we go for like fizzy sweets or like salt and vinegar crisps and stuff like that.

Alex Partridge 41:52 Right. Yeah.

Ellie Middleton 41:52 So I imagine that's probably a bit of it as well. But yeah, it was just like a, like I can picture back to having like a little paper bag of them in my blazer pocket and just being like, "If I just have one now, then I just-

Alex Partridge 42:01 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 42:02 ... can get through it. Five-minute periods at a time, and I'll get through the rest of the lesson."

Alex Partridge 42:06 Fascinating. Well, we'll put them on the shelf. Um, you've made them really enticing, so we, we'll struggle not to eat them in the future, but we'll try our best. Um, anywhere you like, maybe just under the Zumba T-shirt. Right. There's crisps as well. That was Kate Spice's item for similar sort of stimulation reasons. Um, right.

Alex Partridge 42:24 I wanna do the, the agony aunt section, the ADHD agony aunt section, and I've called it the washing machine of woes. So the washing machine is my item because I always forget my clothes in the machine. Do you forget your clothes in the machine?

Ellie Middleton 42:37 I think I've learnt the hard way not to

Alex Partridge 42:39 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 42:39 'cause I hate that smell of smelly washing once it, if it's sat in the, the machine too much.

Alex Partridge 42:44 Yeah.

Ellie Middleton 42:44 So yeah, I'm, I'm on top of that. But now I'm move- I've... That's the best thing about that I've moved back home, that I don't have to do my washing anymore.

Alex Partridge 42:50 Oh, that's good.

Ellie Middleton 42:51 My washing's taken care of.

Alex Partridge 42:52 That's good. I need someone to do that for me.

Ellie Middleton 42:53 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 42:53 Yeah, that smell of mold is-

Ellie Middleton 42:54 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 42:55 ... weekly occurrence.

Ellie Middleton 42:56 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 42:57 Um, okay, this week in the washing machine of woes, someone from Instagram who follows the show has asked, "My daughter is 16, and she's having trouble making friends. It breaks my heart to say it, but she seems to just get upset or irritate those around her, and I think she's showing signs of autism. Is there anything I can tell her to make her feel better, because I think she feels a bit broken?"

Ellie Middleton 43:24 Ooh, that's a tough one. I feel like that was like, ugh-

Alex Partridge 43:26 Yeah.

Ellie Middleton 43:26 I feel that.

Alex Partridge 43:26 You can have that if you wanna reread it.

Ellie Middleton 43:28 Thank you. Yeah. I, um, can definitely relate to the daughter. I think I had a really, really tough time at school. Um, one thing that always came up in conversations with me and my mum, like I, I've had this conversation so many, so many times, is she would always say to me, like whenever it sort of like went wrong in a friendship situation or things went bad, she would be like, "Why, why do you always go for the popular girls?" Like, I think, like looking back, my probably survival mechanism in masking was like, "Oh, well, if I just become friends with the popular people, then it'll be fine 'cause everyone will like me then." I think it was almost like a, yeah, subconscious like draw to the safest place 'cause if you're in with... You're, if you're in with the in gang, then you're in and you're safe. So I would always, always try and make friends with like the loud, the loud, popular girls. Um, and my mum would always be like, "Why do you always go for the, for those people? 'Cause you know how it ends up. They're not, you know, they're not always nice people."

Alex Partridge 44:25 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 44:26 "And it always ends up like this. Why, you know, why don't you just find some people who are more like you, like some more quiet friends or friends who are just more like you?" And I think, I don't know, in my... I, I just, I probably didn't realize I was doing it at the time, but I think that was, for me, it was like, "I need to fit in, so I need to fit in with the popular," air quotes, "popular people." Whereas, I think actually if I'd have just found people more like me, who were, I don't know, maybe considered a little bit weird at school, maybe didn't have the easiest time themselves, but I still would've had somewhere to belong and a friend to go through it with, instead of always being in a group-

Alex Partridge 45:00 Mm

Ellie Middleton 45:00 ... out of a group, in a group, out of a group, and never ever finding anywhere to belong. If I'd have just been like, "Well, it's better to have a true friend who might not be as sort of like far up the popularity rankings, but they're still my friend," I probably would've had a much better time. So I would say like, sort of, yeah, maybe just like that advice of you don't have to be friends with everybody, or you don't have to be friends with the cool kids. Just focus on find... And it, like qual- quality over quantity as well.

Alex Partridge 45:24 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 45:24 I think like if I'd have just settled for finding one friend that I could have been myself with, I could have belonged with, that would've loved me as I was, um, I would've had a much better time I think-

Alex Partridge 45:35 Mm

Ellie Middleton 45:35 ... rather than doing what I was trying to do, which was like trying to please everybody and in like the long run not actually pleasing anybody and not pleasing myself either.

Alex Partridge 45:44 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 45:44 So I'd say like, yeah, trying to focus on finding like a singular friend I think is, is a big one. And also, um, I think one thing that's really difficult when you're like having a really hard time as a teenager and at school is like when everyone says like, "Oh, school's the best time in your life. Like you don't know how lucky you have it. Like wait until you're out in the adult world. Like school's so..." Like they make out like school is this amazing time, and you're like, "Well, if this is as good as it gets, then I don't really want to go any further-"

Alex Partridge 46:11 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 46:11 "... to be honest, 'cause this is awful." So I think just like, yeah, reminding her that it's actually, you know, most people look back at school and go, "God-

Alex Partridge 46:19 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 46:20 " ... kids were awful. Like the girls were awful. I never..." You know? I don't think anybody looks... Well, I don't know, maybe some people do, but I definitely don't look back and think, "Oh yeah, it was a wonderful time in my life." Like I think, you know, it's, it's just because school's bad, it does get better, and it, it, a lot of people have that experience of struggling to, to fit in and belong.

Alex Partridge 46:36 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 46:36 And it's not actually that everyone else is having an amazing time and loving every moment, and you're the only one that's struggling. Like it's quite a common experience to have a, a rough, rough time.

Alex Partridge 46:45 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 46:46 I think that like, that age of like 16, 17, 18 is so difficult because there's like this pressure to suddenly like know who you are and become an adult and like make these life choices and like there's so much change going on. Like I think looking back, that's a lot of what sort of all led to me dropping out of school was that like socially it was awful. There was like this pressure to choose what I wanted to study at uni. I was having to like come to terms with the fact that I was about to move out and go to a different city and study, and there was all these decisions and all this change and all this pressure of like, "You have to do well in these exams. It's gonna shape the rest of your life." Like it's a rough old time is that time, and all of that at the time of like sort of like figuring out who you are and like growing into like sort of that gap between like child and adult. So I think, yeah, just the like empathy I guess and compassion-

Alex Partridge 47:32 Mm

Ellie Middleton 47:32 ... of like it's okay if it's a rough time. And then I guess practical advice would be like, yeah, focus on finding a friend that's more like you rather than trying to please everybody.

Alex Partridge 47:43 Yeah, that was brilliant advice. I think the younger people can hear that advice and adopt it, the better. The younger people can find their tribe and not pretend to be someone they're else- someone they're not to please a large group of people. Because every year you do that, the effects of that compound-

Ellie Middleton 48:02 Yeah

Alex Partridge 48:02 ... and to create a more damaged person. And the older you are when you realize you've been doing this, you've been masking your entire life, the more challenging it's gonna be to start making the, the fixes, the, the, the changes to make your life a little bit easier. So brilliant advice, thank you very much. Do you think

Alex Partridge 48:20 having ADHD and being autistic yourself, um, do you think that makes you more tolerant to other people who might exhibit what some people might consider to be frustrating traits of those conditions?

Ellie Middleton 48:39 Um, I think yes and no. I think there's this thing with a lot of neurodivergent people where it's, like, either, I guess it's like magnets a lot of the time. Like, either it's, like, perfect and you click amazingly, and, like, you love them for all their quirks and they love you for all their quirks, or I think sometimes that's, like, not spoken a lot, 'cause it's, I guess, not the nicest thing of the community, but sometimes people's traits rub each other up the wrong way. Like, I think a big one is, like, um, like, I'm autistic, so I really s- Like, I might be late myself as an AuDHDer [laughs] but I really hate it when last minute plans change. But also, I am frequently either late myself or I frequently cancel things, 'cause I don't feel up to it on the day or whatever. So it's like, actually, someone who, like, I would annoy myself as a friend, 'cause I'd be like, "Oh, I can't believe she's canceled her plans last minute. Like, that's my whole day changed," and that would, that change would sort of stress me out.

Alex Partridge 49:30 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 49:30 But I have to cancel things 'cause I'm burnt out or I don't feel up to it, whatever it is. So I think sometimes, like, those needs can... I think we have more compassion for it, 'cause we know, I guess, like, once the moment has passed, you have a lot more compassion for it.

Alex Partridge 49:43 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 49:43 But sometimes in the moment, that can really, you know, throw you of, like, oh, why, why is she canceled or change of plans, or why is she running late, 'cause we were supposed to meet at this time, and now everything's wrong, and da, da, da, da. So I think, like, um, generally, I guess we're probably more, like, compassionate and accepting, 'cause we know what it's like-

Alex Partridge 50:01 Mm

Ellie Middleton 50:01 ... to not be understood and to be, like, sort of, um, judged for certain things or have certain parts of you be disliked. But I think something that's, like, important to remember is, like, it doesn't make you a bad person if in the moment those things do, like, that's part of something that might trigger you or bother you or, like, set you off or... Yeah, I think, um, yeah, yes and no, I think. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 50:24 [laughs] I think just r- being able to recognize those traits, the similarities in others is, is so important because, A, it gives you the, the empathy, particularly, I think, in ro- in romantic relationships, and I think that's why some relationships struggle, where perhaps one partner's neurotypical, one person's neurodivergent. Unless there's solid communication there, and, and the- and there's a willingness from the neurotypical person to learn and understand the ways of the neurodivergent, um, then I think that can be a danger zone. But if when, when there's understanding and a willingness to learn, I think then relationships can thrive. Um, and

Alex Partridge 51:04 off that, you've built a huge community online, um, hundreds of thousands of people, and I can't even imagine the, the, the, the, the DMs, the, the, the people you must meet in m- real life. Do you see a, a common theme in the turmoil that people come to you with in terms of feeling lost in themselves?

Ellie Middleton 51:27 Yeah. I think there's, I think a big one at the minute is, like, um, they're figuring it out maybe or they're relating to people, and then they just don't know, how do I get a diagnosis, how do I get answers, how... I think that's, like, the big one, is sort of having that realization but not knowing who to turn to or whether that's, like, accessing a diagnosis. But I think, like, support is a big one as well of, like, okay, I, I don't know where to, I don't know, ask for help or get support at work or all of these things. I think, like, um, I think practically a lot of people are lost in that they don't know where to turn. I think that's a really big one and one that's really difficult, because it's like th- there just isn't the, the support out there at the moment. Um, and then I think sort of, like, similar to that is, like, um, one that we get, 'cause obviously a, like, a big part of Unmasked was, like, wanting to create a community for people to make friends and, and find support, and I think that's a, a big thing over the last year has been realizing that that's really, um, I l- I love the idea of that happening, but practically it's really difficult for me to actually run that as a business. Like, I just can't be everywhere all the time. I really struggle to, um, like, work with people. Like, I've tried hiring people, and that sets me off so much, 'cause it's like someone's always reliant on you, and my demand avoidance is like-

Alex Partridge 52:48 Mm

Ellie Middleton 52:48 ... "Oh, I don't wanna talk to anyone today, but I need to tell you what to do," and yeah. So yeah, I think a big thing that people are looking for is, like, that community. I think a lot of the time most people who come to me, it's like they've had that light bulb moment, they've had that realization, and then it's like, where do I go from here? So where do I find friends, or where do I find support, or where do I get a diagnosis? I think that's the big one of, like, the light bulb moment has happened, but where do I, like, how do I actually move forward with, with my life now or make things easier for myself or, um, yeah, get support?

Alex Partridge 53:23 A big theme as well that crops up on this podcast is, is RSD. Um, have you made any steps since you were last on to manage your RSD? Has it cropped up much?

Ellie Middleton 53:33 Yeah. I think it's always there, isn't it? I think I actually saw a video recently, um, by a girl I know called Lana, um, who makes really great videos about autism and ADHD, and she was, like, doing, like, a skit about all, like, all the different ways that RSD shows up. Um, and I think I watched it and I was like, oh my goodness, I hadn't even, like, thought of that. But, like, um, I can't even remember the examples, but it was, like, similar to, like, what we were saying earlier about the sending the text-

Alex Partridge 54:00 Mm

Ellie Middleton 54:00 ... when you've, like, um, left the party early-

Alex Partridge 54:04 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 54:04 ... or you've not replied to someone's text or something. She was, like, saying things about, like, "Oh, because of my RSD, I don't, like, go, I don't take my problem to somebody," because it's like, oh, well, if I go to them with this, then they might sort of not give me the answer that I'm asking for, or they might not agree with me, or they might tell me that I'm in the wrong, so I just don't go to people with things. And, like, basically, like, all of the ways that we isolate ourselves. And I, um, yeah, I think that was like, oh God, I hadn't even realized that I do so much. 'Cause I think we think, when we talk about it a lot, it's like that, that feeling of, like, the rejection feeling.

Alex Partridge 54:37 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 54:38 But I think I'd not really thought about almost, like- That all of the things I do to avoid getting to that point of even getting, uh, the chance of the rejection feeling happening full stop. Like, I think I do a lot of that, of like keeping everyone at arm's length and, um, yeah, being very sort of controlled with what I ... Like, the relationships I have with people, I guess. I think, yeah, I've definitely sort of realized recently, actually, I really do ... Like, I would con- ... I have a lot more friends than I did pre-diagnosis, but they're very controlled friendships where I don't see them that often, or it's mostly over, like, the internet, or I wouldn't, like, go to them if I was really upset or all of those things. So I think, um, yeah, still definitely in the ... I think I probably don't have as many of the like, uh, like, that horrible, like, gut-sinking feeling of like, "Oh, God, everyone hates me. The world is gonna end," but I think actually that's maybe because I've done all of the preventative measures to make sure-

Alex Partridge 55:36 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 55:36 ... I didn't get there in the first place. Um, yeah, I think it's a really tricky one.

Alex Partridge 55:40 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 55:40 I think we, we ... One of the tips in the book is a framework from Leanne, who has been on the podcast, I believe, um, and it's what I learn in her ADHD coaching, um, training, and it's like a, a reframing rejection framework. So it's, like, questions to ask yourself of like, okay, what, what am I believing? What is the thought that I'm choosing to believe? So you think, I don't know, "I forgot to text my friend back, so, like, she hates me and I'm never ... Like, I'm a rubbish friend and I'm never gonna have any friends. No one's ever gonna like me." Um, and it's like, okay, what are the consequences if I choose to believe that thought? So it's like, well, I'm gonna distance myself from her. I might distance myself from other people because I feel like I'm a bad friend, and I'm gon- everyone's gonna hate me. I'm gonna be sad. I'm gonna feel rubbish. I'm gonna ... All of, like, this, all of the consequences of believing that thought. And then it's like, okay, what's the complete opposite of that thought that I am choosing to believe? So it's like, I am a good friend, and I am loved. And then it's like, okay, well, what are the consequences of believing that thought? Well, I'll be more present in my relationships, or I'll feel happier, like, I'll open up to people more. I will, yeah, feel better in myself. And then it's like sort of making that conscious decision of like, okay, well, which thought do I want to choose to believe then? Um, and sort of, like, doing evidence for both of them as well. So what evidence do you have that everyone hates you? Probably quite little. It's probably more of a gut feeling, whereas the evidence for I am a good friend and I am loved, you probably have a lot of that if you look for it. I think that's a helpful thing to, um ... 'Cause it's anything but logical, isn't it, when you're in that moment? It's just like that-

Alex Partridge 57:17 Mm

Ellie Middleton 57:18 ... panic and emotional state. So I think trying to, like, have that step in and have that breather and then be more logical about it definitely doesn't stop the feeling from happening, but I think it allows you to pull yourself out of that spiral a bit more, um, which I think is, yeah, uh, uh, something that I'm trying to get better at.

Alex Partridge 57:37 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 57:37 I think it's always difficult to sort of like ... 'Cause that feeling's always gonna be there, and it's always gonna show up, and it's never gonna ... I think it's, well, I feel as though that will, that will, that gut feeling will always be there, but it's then how I bring myself out of that. So I think it's difficult to measure because it's like, well, I'm still having that feeling, but it's like, actually, well, am I letting that ruin the rest of my day, or am I able to go, right, okay, that's how it felt in the moment, but I can understand logically that that's not the case, and then move forward?

Alex Partridge 58:05 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 58:05 That's still a win even though you still have to have, like, that gut feeling to start off with.

Alex Partridge 58:10 It's true. There's no evidence. If, if you leave the party early, no one's text me or-

Ellie Middleton 58:14 Yeah

Alex Partridge 58:14 ... saying, "You were rude."

Ellie Middleton 58:15 [laughs] Yeah.

Alex Partridge 58:16 The texts don't come, but it's-

Ellie Middleton 58:17 Yeah

Alex Partridge 58:18 ... it's, I guess it's a, it's a first step to try and alleviate that feeling.

Alex Partridge 58:23 You said earlier, and you've said before, that you, you take things quite literally. Um, that, I guess, plus perhaps being quite blunt in conversation, that must create confusion in, in conversation with romantic partners, with peers, colleagues. How does that confusion clash with your RSD?

Ellie Middleton 58:47 Yeah, I think it's, like, similar to that feeling like what we said about, like, being misunderstood. That it just, it's like, oh, God, it's just, this is not going how I want it to go, and this is ... I think something that really, um, upsets me or really, really gets to me is when somebody who I consider to know me, like, sort of misunderstands or misinterprets my intentions. If they think that I've had a bad intention with doing something, that always really, really upsets me 'cause I, like, can understand if a stranger, you know, thinks that I've been rude or blunt, because I am quite blunt, and if they don't have that context of knowing where the bluntness comes from, then I c- that's, like, that's fine if they, if they think that. But when it's somebody that I'm like, "Oh, but you, you know me, so you should know that my heart would never ... Like, I am the softest person [laughs] in the world. You should know that I don't mean it in that way," um, that really bothers me. Um, like, I guess RSD, just everything. Like, um, I don't know, if I, like, snap at somebody 'cause I'm, like, overstimulated or whatever, and then they maybe snap back in the s- or, or they say, like, "Oh, that was not very ..." You know, they take that in a bad way, and I'm like, "Oh, but you should know that that's, I'm not actually being nasty to you. I just couldn't help it in that very moment."

Alex Partridge 1:00:08 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:00:08 "I couldn't control my tone, or I was just overstimulated." I think that's a really difficult one, but then I think it's even more difficult because you can, like, put yourself in, like, I think of, like, my mum is probably the person that experiences most of those snaps, 'cause she's my support worker as well, so in a stressful work situation, she's the one that's there.

Alex Partridge 1:00:25 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:00:25 And in a stressful home situation, it's normally a mum that's there. Um, and so she is probably the one that gets most frequently those little snaps. And I think, well, if I ... It upsets me that she thinks, or if she thinks that I'm being nasty or whatever, but if I put myself in my mum's shoes and I was being snapped at, I wouldn't like that either. So I think it's really difficult because you're like, "Oh, I can understand why you feel that way." You're not just gonna have someone snap at you and then go, "Okay, that's great. How, like, that's brilliant," and you're gonna react to that. You're gonna feel some kind of way with it. So it's a really, I think- Communication is a really big thing, like, after the fact, of being like, um, you know, "Sorry I got a bit heated there," and, and learning to, um, yeah, be more, uh, direct with-

Alex Partridge 1:01:11 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:01:11 I think one thing that I'm really, like, conscious of and, and asking other people to be more conscious of with me is, like, um, remind me frequently that you love me or like me or care about me, and I will do the same for you. So then when those heated moments happen, it's easier to have, I guess, that evidence of like, oh no, they- she does, she does love me. She does. It's just a snap. It's just an-

Alex Partridge 1:01:35 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:01:35 ... that I've been overstimulated or whatever. Um, 'cause like, my mom will say, like, some, like, all the time, she'll be like, "Oh, you know that, like you know that we love you so much, and you know that I'd do anything for you." And I'm like, yeah, I do know, but I, sometimes I just need you to remind me of that when everything feels a bit overwhelming. So yeah, I think that's a big one that I'm trying to get okay with knowing that I need to ask for. 'Cause I think in so many situations, like, to ask a parent to tell you that they love you more feels, there's guilt that comes with that, 'cause it's almost like you're telling them they've not been a good enough parent, that you know it deeply. But then I think like in a friendship, that feels very intense, or in a romantic relationship, I think that would feel very, like, needy to say like, "Can you please tell me that you love me?" [laughs] So I think there's so many, like, awkward feelings that come with that. But I think, yeah, I'm, I guess, trialing in a family situation of being like, I just need to hear that sometimes. So it, like, getting used to, like, telling people that that's in the same way that I need an agenda before a meeting, I also need to be reminded of that I am loved and cared for and, and, like, supported. So I think, yeah, trying to get comfortable with asking for those things that feel slightly more uncomfortable to ask for.

Alex Partridge 1:02:42 I mean, there's a lot there. There's a lot there. And I mean, I snapped because I was overstimulated. There's a lot of empowerment just in that sentence.

Ellie Middleton 1:02:49 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:02:49 There's a lot of self-awareness just in that sentence. I, I saw a meme the other day and it said, "I can't be held responsible for my actions when there's multiple noises happening at the same time." And it's funny, but it's hugely relatable. And y- going through your life not recognizing that you get overstimulated and not understanding why you're having those snaps, I mean, that's the damage we're talking about.

Ellie Middleton 1:03:12 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:03:13 Years and years of people not understanding why they're snapping. And you just saying, "I snap because I was overstimulated," that's awareness right there, and I think more and more people are having this realization. Imagine how many relationships have ended because of people not understanding-

Ellie Middleton 1:03:28 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:03:28 ... that actually it's because there's overstimulation at play and not, and it's not something personal.

Ellie Middleton 1:03:33 I think it's both sides as well, 'cause I think it's like the person on the other end, they're just like, "Well, why does this person always snap at me and raise their voice at me or get angry at me or whatever?"

Alex Partridge 1:03:41 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:03:41 But then I think you as the snapper, you feel like, I must be a horrible, like, look at me, I'm shouting at my mom, I'm shouting at my partner. I'm a awful person. I'm horrible. That, like, is m- just as awful for you, I think, as it is for the person that's probably on the receiving end-

Alex Partridge 1:03:57 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:03:57 ... of those, like, snaps as well. Um, so yeah, I think with everything, I think so much of it is just, like, context is-

Alex Partridge 1:04:03 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:04:03 ... is the sort of best thing that you can have.

Alex Partridge 1:04:07 Why are boundaries important to a person?

Ellie Middleton 1:04:10 Ooh. I think that's something that I've, I think as a people pleaser and a masker, they're something that I've, not happened for me very well. [laughs] Um, I guess it's that, like, protection of like, this is who I am, and this is why I'm, what I'm comfortable with, and that's where I end, and, like, you finish as well. I guess it's like, I think as somebody who was always just trying to fit in and trying to people please and masking and mimicking and, and just, they wa- that didn't exist, 'cause it was like, oh, well, I just want everyone to like me, or I want to fit in somewhere, so I'll just do whatever anyone asks, and I'll just say yes to everything, and I'll, you know, do it their way, and I'll... And I think you don't even realize that there's an option, I think, a lot of the time, to be like, oh no, this is what works with me. This is, like, that doesn't work for me. Um, I think it's really difficult to learn to set them. But I think, um, yeah, they're very important in, like, energy, I think is a big one. But I think also, like, sense of self, 'cause I think once you figure out what you're okay with and what you're not with, that is, I guess, molding that little sort of barrier around yourself. It's more like, oh, this is who I am, rather than I'm just whoever that person wants me to be-

Alex Partridge 1:05:24 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:05:24 ... and whatever that person wants me to do or, yeah, sort of changing depending on who I'm with. I think having that, yeah, sense of self is really sort of important, and this is what's okay for me, this is what not, what's not okay for me. This is what I'm willing to do. This is what I'm not willing to do. I think it's a difficult thing to figure out, but I think you almost get that, like, little, um... I think there's a lot of, like, fear in setting a boundary. Like, you feel like when you've always been a people pleaser your whole life and you've always said yes to everything, to turn around and go, "Actually, that doesn't work for me," or, "Actually, can we do it this way?" Or, "Actually, I don't know, can you drive to me rather than me coming to yours?"

Alex Partridge 1:05:58 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:05:58 "'Cause I've got a lot on." Um, fe- there's a lot of fear of the rejection, I think, 'cause it's like, if I'm setting a boundary, then it's easy that that's gonna be rejected, whereas if I just go along with it, then there's no fear of that.

Alex Partridge 1:06:08 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:06:08 But I do think you actually then get the, like, little satisfaction. Like, I think it's when you set a boundary and it's accepted, there is like, oh, like, look at, look at me-

Alex Partridge 1:06:17 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:06:17 ... like, I'm, I'm so, I'm so powerful.

Alex Partridge 1:06:19 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:06:19 I think it's a really nice, um, a nice feeling.

Alex Partridge 1:06:22 Yeah. Yeah, it's great advice. And I was gonna ask what tips you would give to someone who, who wants to set boundaries, 'cause I think the requirement to set boundaries is on a lot of people's list. It's kind of just that, that un- not understanding how to do it and trying to get over that fear of the consequences of standing up for yourself, which is really exposing yourself to, to criticism and probably some pushback, which is terrifying, uh, to many people in the community. So I suppose i- if there was a, a book called How to Set Boundaries, a, a very, what would the first page say on a very basic summary?

Ellie Middleton 1:06:56 I think a good one for ADHD is, that I actually learnt from Leanne, um, was, like, having them written down and in a visible place. 'Cause I think that's another one with a lot of us, 'cause of the way that our brains are so, one, easily excitable, and two, memory's not always a strong point.

Alex Partridge 1:07:12 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:07:12 That you can, like I, I've gone through such an iteration of rules- Since, like, when I've been self-employed, 'cause I was like, "Right, I'm only gonna do talks on this day and this day, and I'm only gonna do two talks a month, and I'm gonna finish work on this, on this time, and I'm gonna not work on Wednesdays." But then an exciting email comes in asking me to do a talk on a Wednesday, and I've already done two talks that month, and I go, "Oh yeah, of course," like, da-da-da. Uh, and then I'm like, "Oh, that was one of my boundaries. I've just forgotten that it existed," or I've brushed it aside 'cause something more exciting's come in. So I think having them, like, firm and sort of... You know, like, when you're at school, it's like the SMART goals or whatever, and it's got to be, like, specific, measurable-

Alex Partridge 1:07:52 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:07:52 ... achievable, whatever it is. I think using that sort of framework for your boundaries as well is, like, specific. 'Cause you can say, "Oh, I'm gonna do less talks," but then you don't actually h- Like, what's less? You-

Alex Partridge 1:08:03 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:08:03 Then less just happens, and then years pass less, and then you're just doing just as many. Whereas it's like, "No, I'm gonna do two talks a month." Um, like, having it be quite specific as a boundary, like a personal boundary. I think as well, yeah, having it somewhere where it's always in front of you. Like, have it stuck up on your wall in your office. Have it on your lock screen, or even better, I think the best one for me has been, like, outsourcing the boundary. Like, with my management, I can say to them, "Right, I don't want to do any more than this," or, "I don't want to do anything that's over this amount of work or under this fee," or whatever it is, and then they can set that boundary for me without m- my excitable brain or people-pleasing brain going, "Oh, no, just this once I'll do it for less"-

Alex Partridge 1:08:41 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:08:41 ... "or just this once I'll squeeze it in," 'cause they really want to have me. If someone else can do that for you, um, I think that's really, really helpful, um, 'cause yeah, I think we're so easily-

Alex Partridge 1:08:52 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:08:53 ... like, forgetting or-

Alex Partridge 1:08:54 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:08:54 ... just wanting to... I think what's difficult as well with boundaries, something that I've felt, like, especially sort of as someone has a s- I guess smaller battery generally as an autistic person, um, like, I'm the only one that misses out if I set those boundaries. Like, if I say, "Right, I am not..." I don't know. For example, I could say, "Right, I'm not taking on any work that comes in, like, unless I've got seven days notice. So I'm only doing it if I've got seven days notice," 'cause that could be, well, I know that that's good for me. Like, I know that I need the time to process. I know that it's overwhelming and stressful if it's... So I could set the boundary of I'm only doing work if there's seven days notice. And then the opportunity of my dreams could come in, and they could go, "Right, but you need to be in London tomorrow morning." And then I'm like, "Oh, well, I really wanna do that." So I think, like, it is, it is, it's only me that misses out then-

Alex Partridge 1:09:46 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:09:46 ... if I set that boundary. So I think that's a really difficult one to, to come to terms with of like, no, like, they'll just find someone else to fill in my dream job. I'm the one that misses out if I stick to the boundary. Um, but then, so I think something that I definitely really, like, don't have the answer to is that flexibility of it, 'cause it's like, well, obviously, I would want to say yes to it if it's my dream job tomorrow, so I'm gonna be sad if I, I'm gonna be sad if I don't stick to the boundary, 'cause I'm gonna think, "Oh, well, I've let myself down."

Alex Partridge 1:10:12 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:10:13 Or I'm gonna be sad if I do stick to it, 'cause I'm gonna have lost out on that opportunity. So I think that's something that's very challenging. But yeah, I think just working out what works for you, um, and trying to be quite, like, specific with that. Um, and I think trial and error as well-

Alex Partridge 1:10:28 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:10:28 ... is a big one that's not really talked about. Like, I think, like you say, it's like, "Oh, I'm gonna set boundaries," and it's like, well, what? How, how do I know what those boundaries are?

Alex Partridge 1:10:34 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:10:34 Like, how do I know if two is my, two talks a month is my limit, or I can do more than that or whatever it might be? So I think not being afraid to, um... Like, they don't have to be firm boundaries. You set them once, and then you stick to them for the rest of your life.

Alex Partridge 1:10:47 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:10:47 They're just like, um, I guess like a guide of what works for you and what doesn't work for you.

Alex Partridge 1:10:53 Yeah. No, it's great. It's, it's one of the great lies we tell ourselves, isn't it? When that email comes in, can you do another talk, in your case, or can we do this project? It's the great lie we tell ourselves, that we can do it without getting burnt out.

Ellie Middleton 1:11:04 Yeah. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:11:04 [laughs] It's up there with, um, this new notebook will solve all my problems. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:11:09 And I'm definitely gonna start going to the gym this time.

Alex Partridge 1:11:11 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:11:11 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:11:12 Um, just getting towards the end, um,

Alex Partridge 1:11:16 the beginning of your Ted Talk, you listed contradictions of social dynamics that you had trouble balancing. Could you mention a couple of them now?

Ellie Middleton 1:11:24 Yeah. I guess it's like the main one is always that thing of, like, too much, but not enough. I think that's something that so many of us can relate to, where it's like too much in maybe, like, very loud, very expressive, very sort of enthusiastic, very excitable, very, like, bubbly and all of that stuff, but then not enough in not doing enough or not finishing the project or not, um, getting the job done on time or not replying to people's messages enough-

Alex Partridge 1:11:52 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:11:52 ... or whatever it might be. I think that's a, the, the big one is, like, um, yeah, too... We, we always feel too much, but not enough. But I think, um, it's kind of like the, um, I don't know if you've seen the Barbie movie when she does the big speech, and it sort of went viral.

Alex Partridge 1:12:05 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:12:05 But it was, like, about being a woman, whereas it, it was like you need to be soft, but not too soft, and you, you know, you need to be ambitious, but not too ambitious. And I think it's always that, like, but not too, I think, is just so present everywhere in society, 'cause it's like, oh, dream big, but not too big, because then people-

Alex Partridge 1:12:22 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:12:22 ... will, like, criticize you for that as well. Or it's like, you know, be firm with your boundaries, oh, but don't be too firm, because then people will just think you're rude and that you're not doing enough to help other people. Or I do think there's just, like, that always, like, but not too. And I think as somebody who, like, I guess just neurodivergent folks in general, it's when there's no rules for like, well, where's the, where's the scale here? Like, what two extremes am I supposed to be existing between? You know, if there's a scale of like, uh, like not enough to too much-

Alex Partridge 1:12:53 Right

Ellie Middleton 1:12:53 ... where am I supposed to be here? Because it's always one or the other, and I never seem to be able to find that sweet spot-

Alex Partridge 1:12:58 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:12:58 ... right in, like, the middle between the two sides. Um, yeah, I think it's the, just these unwritten rules, and it's always a contradiction really.

Alex Partridge 1:13:08 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:13:08 You can't really ever win. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:13:09 Yeah. [laughs] Uh, I did watch the... Well, I put on the Barbie movie, um, but I lasted about 20 minutes.

Ellie Middleton 1:13:15 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:13:15 I was scrolling on my phone, and I swapped, swapped channel.

Alex Partridge 1:13:18 Um- The, the, the unwritten rulebook, you said. I think you went on to say that in your, in your Ted Talk. You said, um, uh, other neurotypical people just seem to have this metaphorical rulebook, which helped them understand these things that you couldn't get to grips with. Did that lead to resentment of being different, having to work so hard to understand something others know intrinsically?

Ellie Middleton 1:13:40 Yeah, I think that, like, before knowing that I was autistic and ADHD, I think, I think there's a real, like, mix of different things. I think it's like, um, sort of that like, I guess, sadness of like, "Why can I never get it right?" And then there's also, like, the beating yourself up for being like a failure. And then there's always, I guess it's like, I think there's always a big wonder before you figure out that you're neurodivergent of like, "Is everyone finding it this difficult, or is it just me?" Like, is everyone behind the scenes having such a hard time and trying to figure it out, or do they all just, like, know it sort of naturally? Um, so I think there's a lot of confusion when you don't know, and then I think once you are diagnosed, I think it's sort of the, like, double-sided coin of like, there's that feeling of like, "Oh, I'm autistic, or I'm ADHD, so that's why I'm that way." Which is like, there's the relief and the happiness in that, and like, "Oh, it's not that I'm a bad person, it's that, you know, my brain works differently." But then I think the other side of that coin is, oh, it's because I'm autistic and ADHD, and that's why I'm that way, and therefore, that's gonna be the way that I am for the rest of my life and always. So I think like, it's really, I think you can sort of like flip between the two of like there's a real validation that comes with like, oh, it's, you know, I'm not a bitch, it's just that I'm autistic, so people have misunderstood me, that, that I'm quite blunt and they think that I'm being rude. So it's like, oh, okay, it's, it's just that I'm autistic, then that's why. Then it's like, oh, well, I'm always gonna be autistic, so people are always gonna misunderstand me.

Alex Partridge 1:15:14 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:15:14 And they're always gonna think I'm a bitch, and that's gonna go on forever, which I think is a really like difficult thing of like, you can h- like from the same phrase, just said slightly differently, there's like massive validation, acceptance, um, like that feeling of being seen and heard. But then the other side is like, ah, actually that means that it's always gonna be this way, and it's, there, people are always gonna misunderstand me.

Alex Partridge 1:15:34 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:15:34 Or people are always gonna... Like this is always gonna be more challenging for me. And yeah, I think it's, um, I think people talk a lot about the grief that comes with diagnosis of like looking backwards of like what could have been if I was diagnosed earlier. But I think actually there's quite a lot of grief looking forwards that comes up as well of like, ah, okay, when I thought that it was anxiety, there was always this hope of like one day I'll find the perfect antidepressant, or I'll find the perfect type of therapy, and I'll be fine, and I'll be a perfectly functioning human being and my anxiety will have been left behind. Whereas when you learn that actually it's ADHD and autism, there's no fix for that. There's no, it's never gonna go away one day. Like, that's always gonna be there with you. And I think that's something that we don't talk about that much, is like the forward grief as well as the backward grief.

Alex Partridge 1:16:18 Mm. That's the first time I've heard it framed in that way, and it's, it's, um, it makes a lot of sense, 'cause you get diagnosed with anything medically and your brain just goes, "All right, well, what do I take to fix that?"

Ellie Middleton 1:16:29 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:16:30 Um, and you get diagnosed with, with autism, and there's no pill, right? There's no, there's no quick fix.

Ellie Middleton 1:16:36 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:16:36 It's just, I mean, it's acceptance and understanding. Um, and, and people like you to, to, to listen to and advocating for other people who, who are living with autism. And thank you for the amazing work you're doing. I mean, it's truly inspiring to see the growth and the work that you're doing. It's been a year since you were last on, and it's, you know, inspiration to see how far you've come. Um-

Ellie Middleton 1:17:01 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:17:01 We've got a new segment which we're closing with, and it- it's, in essence, it's a letter from the previous guest. Although this is the first time we've done it, so it's actually a letter from myself, my producer, and the cameraman. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:17:12 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:17:12 But in all future episodes, it will be from the previous guest. So the next episode will be your questions. Um, but we're gonna deliver you a letter.

Ellie Middleton 1:17:19 Okay.

Alex Partridge 1:17:20 And if by magic I've got the letter here, I'm gonna pass it to you.

Ellie Middleton 1:17:25 Thank you.

Alex Partridge 1:17:25 This week, this is from me, my producer, and my cameraman.

Ellie Middleton 1:17:28 Amazing. It's like Christmas. Three rules to live by. Never have regrets, because at some point, those regrets were what you wanted at the time, and were the right thing to do given your circumstances. I think that's a really big one, like, especially with like a late diagnosis. I think, um, you look back and are just, like the people-pleasing side of things, I think so many things that you've done, and it's like, actually, that's what I had to do at that time to, to get through, so that's a good one. What you perceive to be your biggest weakness when you were younger will turn out to be your biggest strength. Definitely a good one for busy brains. [laughs] It's better to have two really good mates rather than 20 crap ones. That's what I said earlier.

Alex Partridge 1:18:09 It is what you said, yeah. It's like you've been jotting-

Ellie Middleton 1:18:10 We're on the same wavelength

Alex Partridge 1:18:11 ... Luke's been writing behind the camera quickly as you were saying that. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:18:15 [laughs] I do, like, those are very good rules to live by. I think if I could have had this, like, time traveled to open as a 15, 16-year-old, I would've been a very much happier one.

Alex Partridge 1:18:27 Yeah, it's almost quite Instagram quote worthy stuff.

Ellie Middleton 1:18:30 It is.

Alex Partridge 1:18:30 But it's very useful. From myself, producer, and cameraman.

Ellie Middleton 1:18:35 Thank you.

Alex Partridge 1:18:36 Today's been absolutely fascinating and incredibly helpful, Ellie, so thank you so much.

Ellie Middleton 1:18:41 Thank you for having me. [upbeat music]

Alex Partridge 1:18:46 What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done?

Ellie Middleton 1:18:49 Ooh, I actually don't know. Lots... Well, I think we said this before. Lots of these are very impulsive. Lots of impulsive tattoos. I also, when I went to do seasons abroad, I did that on, like, a month's notice. So I was working in a branch of Santander and just handed my notice in, and then a month later went around the world for two years. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:19:15 God, was that scary?

Ellie Middleton 1:19:17 Um, yeah. Yeah, probably. But also, I think it was li- Just very exciting and something that I, I think I just... The, I can remember, um, the, one of the women that I worked with in the branch, she was lovely, but she had been working in the same branch, in the same bank for, um, like, I think it was, like, 25 years, and in, like, the same town, the same, like, job, doing the same thing. And I was... I can just remember being like, "I can't, I can't do that. That can't be me." 'Cause I think at that point, like, I dropped out of school. I didn't have A levels, didn't have a degree. My options were quite limited of, like, what I could do and go into, so I was sort of, like, I'd got into that job and was quite happy with it, but then I was like, "Oh, God, this, is it. Like, there, this co- [laughs] this can't be it."

Alex Partridge 1:20:03 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:20:03 I was like, "No, no, no, I need to get out of here." So yeah, very, um, impulsive, but, like, definitely happy-

Alex Partridge 1:20:09 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:20:09 ... that I did it.

Alex Partridge 1:20:10 Have you got your phone on you?

Ellie Middleton 1:20:12 I do. It's over there.

Alex Partridge 1:20:13 How, how many unread emails have you got on?

Ellie Middleton 1:20:14 Oh, God. You don't wanna know.

Alex Partridge 1:20:16 Let's see who wins. I've got, uh, 2,890.

Ellie Middleton 1:20:22 I could cheat and show you my work one, but that's, like, managed by my support worker. [laughs] So they go through and get it to zero. My actual, like, one that's got old spammy stuff in it, like, just says 1,000 plus, so I don't know.

Alex Partridge 1:20:37 1,000.

Ellie Middleton 1:20:37 1,000 plus-

Alex Partridge 1:20:38 Yeah

Ellie Middleton 1:20:38 ... but I think it's pr- I think when I've done it on a computer recently it's more like 4,000-

Alex Partridge 1:20:41 Yeah

Ellie Middleton 1:20:41 ... and something.

Alex Partridge 1:20:42 Just get another email account and forget about this one.

Ellie Middleton 1:20:43 Yeah. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:20:44 What about WhatsApps? How many, like-

Ellie Middleton 1:20:46 Ooh

Alex Partridge 1:20:46 ... unread WhatsApps have you got?

Ellie Middleton 1:20:47 Uh, 96.

Alex Partridge 1:20:50 96. So you beat me on that one. I've got 20.

Ellie Middleton 1:20:52 And I'm not in, like, group chats either.

Alex Partridge 1:20:54 Yeah.

Ellie Middleton 1:20:55 Like, that, 'cause that, that's all, like-

Alex Partridge 1:20:57 Yeah. That would-

Ellie Middleton 1:20:57 ... conversations. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:20:59 Screenshots, how many screenshots have you got?

Ellie Middleton 1:21:01 Too many. 3,074.

Alex Partridge 1:21:05 Ch- that was... So that's... I've got 570, so that's pretty... [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:21:08 [laughs] Too many.

Alex Partridge 1:21:09 Why do we forget to look at them? Do you forget to look at them?

Ellie Middleton 1:21:12 Yeah, all the ti- Do you know, the one time when I actually go through my camera roll is when I'm on a plane. When you've got nothing else to do, that's the only time when I can just go through and delete so many-

Alex Partridge 1:21:21 Oh

Ellie Middleton 1:21:21 ... old screenshots-

Alex Partridge 1:21:21 Free up that space

Ellie Middleton 1:21:22 ... or photos. [laughs] Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:21:24 What about, um, reusable shopping bags? Do you-

Ellie Middleton 1:21:26 Ooh

Alex Partridge 1:21:27 ... um, forget those? Always buying those?

Ellie Middleton 1:21:30 I think I've actually got better at that because I'm just a Yorkshire girl and very stingy-

Alex Partridge 1:21:36 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:21:36 ... and I hate having to buy them, so I do generally try and just put a load in my car. Like, I'll just put loads in one day, and then I'll, like, gradually use them all up.

Alex Partridge 1:21:46 Yeah.

Ellie Middleton 1:21:46 So I'm got better at that. And I just generally carry a tote. Like, my bag that I carry is, like, quite big, so normally if I'm just getting a few things it'll just go in there. [laughs] And that's probably a coping mechanism-

Alex Partridge 1:21:56 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:21:56 ... to not have to buy, uh, bags for life. I just carry one around with me all the time.

Alex Partridge 1:22:01 What about domains? How many domains have you got?

Ellie Middleton 1:22:04 I've got unmasked, which is in use, and then I think there's two that I've started and then-

Alex Partridge 1:22:12 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:22:13 ... but never did anything about.

Alex Partridge 1:22:14 Yeah. Do you do, like, health kicks? Do you buy, uh, supplements and stuff on a health kick?

Ellie Middleton 1:22:21 Again, I think my stingy, I don't know if it's autistic or Yorkshire or a combination-

Alex Partridge 1:22:26 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:22:26 ... of two nature, means that I a- like, I will... If I've got s- if I've opened something or if I've bought something, I will use it up because I just, I'm, yeah, stingy, basically. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:22:37 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 1:22:37 So I think the impulse happens where I probably won't buy it again once I've finished it-

Alex Partridge 1:22:40 Mm

Ellie Middleton 1:22:40 ... but I will finish them off because-

Alex Partridge 1:22:42 Yeah

Ellie Middleton 1:22:42 ... I have to finish them off because I've started them and I've bought them.