Ellie Middleton Opens Up About ADHD and Autism

Alex Partridge 0:00 If your ADHD was missed during your childhood and you're coming to terms with a diagnosis later in life, then this episode is for you. Ellie Middleton is a tremendous autistic ADHD content creator, but more importantly than that, she's a huge advocate for all things neurodiversity. Ellie's normally sharing her wisdom with her army of online followers, so we're tremendously lucky to have her all to ourself today in the studio, where I can let her share her amazing, powerful personal story, and pick her brains on some of the hot topics around neurodiversity. I hope you enjoy the episode. [upbeat music] Watching the numbers go up really helps me avoid burnout, and enables me to keep producing amazing content for you all. So if you're on YouTube, please hit the subscribe button, hit the like button, or if you're listening to it on a podcast app, please hit the follow button. Thank you so much. Ellie, thanks for joining us.

Ellie Middleton 0:54 No, thank you for having me. It's so nice to be here.

Alex Partridge 0:56 I watched your TEDx talk, and it was so powerful, the bits where you were describing the various stages of your life where you felt different. So I suppose my first question is, what's your earliest memory of feeling different?

Ellie Middleton 1:12 I think it's hard, 'cause I think I don't have many memories. [laughs] Like, I think that it's quite a blur, a lot of my childhood. Um, but I think I was always a massive tomboy growing up. I think it was probably, like, double-edged as well, 'cause... So growing up, all of my cousins until I was 10 were always boys, and all of my, like, family friends all just happened to be boys. So it was always, like, I don't know, however many boys and me.

Alex Partridge 1:35 Mm-hmm.

Ellie Middleton 1:35 So I guess I was always the different one anyway, just from being the only little girl. Um, but I guess, I guess when it really became apparent was, so I went to two different primary schools, and the first primary school, my cousin, who was a boy, was in the same year group as me.

Alex Partridge 1:50 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 1:50 So I feel like I was just a copy of Ben for most of primary school. So it was like, he used to play football with the boys, so I used to play football with the boys. Um, so it was more that I knew that I was different at that point, but it was more I was a tomboy rather than anything else.

Alex Partridge 2:06 Mm-hmm.

Ellie Middleton 2:06 Um, but then when I moved to... We moved house, so I moved to a different primary school in year five, and because it was a new girl entering the school, it was like, "Oh, we'll find you a, a buddy that's a girl-

Alex Partridge 2:16 Right

Ellie Middleton 2:16 ... and we'll introduce you to the girls in the year group-

Alex Partridge 2:18 Mm

Ellie Middleton 2:18 ... and we'll sit you on a table with the girls in the year group." And I think that was when I first, that was when I first definitely started to have social struggles of, like, uh, "She's my best friend, so she can't be your best friend, and we've been friends for years, so you can't come in and be our..." And I think that was like, whoa. Like, that doesn't really happen as much, I don't think, with boys, 'cause it's an extra person to play football, or it's an extra person-

Alex Partridge 2:40 Mm

Ellie Middleton 2:40 ... to do whatever game you're playing. So it was the first time that I think social rules were really, like, imposed on me. So it was like, hang on. What is... What am I doing wrong here? What's going on? Why am I upsetting people? Um, so I think that was probably, um, the main time when I first realized it. But then there is a really funny story from when I was, um, like... I don't even know how old I was. I think I was, like, a, a toddler. Um, and my dad tells me this all the time. It's like my catchphrase of, like... So I one day decided that I wanted to crack an egg onto the patio to see what would happen. Um, and my parents were like, "No, you, you can't do that."

Alex Partridge 3:18 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 3:18 Like, "You don't need to do that." And I think it was about two hours that all I said was, "But I want to crack an egg." [laughs]

Alex Partridge 3:25 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 3:25 "But I want to crack an egg." And they're like, "But Ellie, you don't, you can't do that. It's gonna make a mess. It's gonna go everywhere."

Alex Partridge 3:30 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 3:30 Like, "It's gonna be on the patio." "But I want to crack an egg." So that's kind of, like, my catchphrase now, where if I'm being stubborn about something-

Alex Partridge 3:36 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 3:36 ... my dad will just look at me and go, "Do you want to crack an egg?" Um, so I guess that's, like, maybe the first story of, like, when everybody else kind of realized [laughs] that I was different. But I think for me, the time when I felt, yeah, felt like I didn't understand social rules was probably that, when I was... So I was in year five, so I was like, I don't know, maybe 10 years old, um-

Alex Partridge 3:53 Mm

Ellie Middleton 3:54 ... of, like, being almost, like, forced to be friends with girls, and being like, "I don't know how to do this." [laughs]

Alex Partridge 4:00 Was there a particular point where you became a- aware of social rules, and you started to mask?

Ellie Middleton 4:07 I think probably maybe around that point, 'cause I feel like because I had been such a tomboy, you almost... Obviously there's still, like, some social norms, but I think boys are let off the hook a lot easier than girls.

Alex Partridge 4:22 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 4:22 That, like, obviously this is quite, like, stereotypical. But because it was, yeah, like, just playing sports, I don't know, playing football, having a kick around, it's not as much... Uh, and I think it's just, like, boys will be boys as well. So I obviously didn't have that full extent, but it was quite, I don't know, less... I think that was the first time I noticed them, when it was, like, girl friendship groups of, like, uh, I don't know, this thing's okay to talk about, but this thing isn't. These people can't be friends with these people.

Alex Partridge 4:47 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 4:48 I think I noticed that a lot when I went to, up to secondary school as well. So I then went to an all-girls secondary school, which probably wasn't the wisest thing to do.

Alex Partridge 4:55 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 4:55 Um, but yeah, it was very much like these people are friends with these people, so you can't mix, and all of the... I think that was, like, yeah, probably those years. Um, it's something that I, like, talk about with my mum a bit as well, because my mum's always said, like, I ob- I get annoyed that, um, I didn't get diagnosed as a teenager, 'cause I was spending a lot of time, like, under NHS care. I was with CAMHS from 15. So I get really frustrated that I didn't get picked up at that point. But my mum's like, "But by that point, nobody could have noticed that you were different, or that you're autistic, or that you had ADHD, because you weren't, you weren't letting yourself be. You had... By that point, you were literally doing anything and everything to stay under the radar, fit in, be popular."

Alex Partridge 5:38 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 5:38 "So by that point, yes, you were, like, there were outward signs, as in, like, having what I now know to be meltdowns, but what I was told were panic attacks. But that was all that they were seeing, was the anxiety, the tearfulness, the upset. They weren't seeing any social differences, because I'd, by that point I was so heavily masking. So I think it was probably those couple of years with, like, between, like... Yeah, 10 and going up to secondary school, which was, I think, yeah, before that point probably I was more being myself, but it wasn't really noticed as being that different because of the way that I was socializing. But then I think by, by, definitely by, like, my second year of high school I had learnt the rules. Like, [laughs] I think I knew what to do and I was, like, desperate to be friends with the popular girls.

Alex Partridge 6:22 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 6:22 And I... Basically, it was, like, do or die, and I did. [laughs] Like, I masked hard. I, when I do talks, I have some of my pictures from, like, secondary school, and there's one picture of me in, I think it's the start of year eight, and then there's a picture of me at the start of year 10. So they're literally two, like, two years apart, and it's, like, two comp- it could be two different people. You wouldn't know. It's like-

Alex Partridge 6:44 Mm

Ellie Middleton 6:44 ... one is just, like, quite, I don't know, natural, like, n- not, not fashionable by any sense of the word.

Alex Partridge 6:50 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 6:50 Like, not cool at all. And then it's two years later and it's, like, bleached blonde hair, fully backcombed, full makeup, um, wearing, like, a strappy dress. And it was like, yeah, I think I very, w- well, pattern recognition skills, I think I very quickly learnt what to do.

Alex Partridge 7:05 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 7:05 And maybe I didn't get it right at all times, but it was quite, like, heavy, yeah-

Alex Partridge 7:09 Mm

Ellie Middleton 7:09 ... by the time I was, like, halfway through, uh, high school.

Alex Partridge 7:13 Was there a particular catalyst that led you to seek assessment for autism?

Ellie Middleton 7:18 Yeah. So I, I'd always struggled with my mental health. So yeah, when I was 15, I got referred to CAMHS, which is the Children and Adolescent Mental Health Service. Um, and then I was, so I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and anxiety related depression. Um, and then within the next couple of years, agoraphobia and panic disorder as well. So it was all, like, very much considered to be mental health issues-

Alex Partridge 7:41 Mm

Ellie Middleton 7:41 ... rather than anything else. Um, so my lowest was when I was 17. I dropped out of sixth form. I had to decline my uni offers. I became, like, house bound, didn't wanna talk to anybody, was just, like, crying all the time, basically. Um, that was, like, the worst that I got, I guess, when I was 17, and then picked myself up, like, got a job. Um, but I dunno. So basically, it was like a six-month cycle from that point of-

Alex Partridge 8:05 Mm

Ellie Middleton 8:06 ... like, that was my lowest, and then every s- I'd have, like, six months of, like, getting myself better and then I'd go back to being, like, energetic, bubbly, ambitious, like this, like, who I am now, basically. And then every six months it would go back to, like, crash and burn, tearful, had to leave jobs, had to come home from traveling, like, didn't wanna talk to anybody, very anxious, having panic attacks, and that was like a six-month, every six month happened. Um, so I guess I could feel it happening again. Um, it was, like, the, the spring of 2021. It was when we'd gone back into lockdown again after Christmas. So I think everybody was having a lot more time to reflect-

Alex Partridge 8:42 Mm

Ellie Middleton 8:42 ... 'cause we couldn't leave the house. Um, but I was kind of like, could feel that this cycle was happening again, and was just, like, adamant. I was like, "I'm not, I, I am not [laughs] going there again." Like, I found it really frustrating 'cause I'd always been told that it was anxiety and depression, and I'd always taken the antidepressants that they told me to take, and I'd always done all the therapies that they told me to do, and I'd read every single [laughs] self-help book that I could get my hand. I was doing all the, like, air quotes, "right things"-

Alex Partridge 9:08 Mm

Ellie Middleton 9:08 ... but I still would end up in this black hole every six months. So I was basically like, "I don't know," just like, "This isn't happening again. I need to work out what's going on here, 'cause it can't be anxiety 'cause this keeps happening over and over and over again." Um, at one point I really thought that it was BPD. Like, I, I guess that was the only explanation that I'd ever seen of, like, why a woman would go from being very high to very low, and a lot of the symptoms kind of seemed to explain my experiences. So I went through a very, [laughs] very stubborn stage of, like, really trying to convince my doctors, "I need to go for a BPD assessment. I know what's going on here. This is what it is. I've found the answer." And they were just like, "No. That, that's not right. That's not you. It's just anxiety."

Alex Partridge 9:48 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 9:48 And I was like, "It's not just anxiety. Like, something else is going on here." Um, so that was kind of, like, where I was, I don't know, knew something different was going on but didn't know w- exactly what it was. Um, and then I've told this story so many times [laughs] now, but it's quite a good one. Basically, um, it was when England had got to the Euros final of the football.

Alex Partridge 10:07 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 10:08 Um, so it was on a Sunday night, the match, and the Monday, um... So me and my partner at the time were both big football fans. So the Monday, my partner had managed to get off work, um, but I couldn't get it off work 'cause people had already booked it off. So I'd said, "If England win, I'll stay out and I'll just deal with the inevitable hangover the next day. It's, like, a once in a lifetime thing, whatever. If we lose, I'm gonna get the last train home because there's no point in me having a rubbish day tomorrow if there's no reason for it." Um, and my partner had said to me, "Okay, whatever you do, I'll do the same. So if you go home, I'll come with you."

Alex Partridge 10:42 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 10:42 "If you stay out, I'll stay out with you." "Okay, cool." And then obviously we lost. Um-

Alex Partridge 10:47 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 10:48 Some things are inevitable. Um, and then I was like, "Right, okay. Let's, let's go and get the train." And my partner was like, "I'm not going home."

Alex Partridge 10:57 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 10:57 "I'm staying out. Like, if I go home now I'm just gonna be fed up. Like, I need to drown my sorrows, go out, see my friends." Um, and I was like, "But you said if I went home, you'd come home." And he was like, "Okay, yeah, I know I said that, but I'm not coming home." Um, so off I went home, and then I brought the conversation up in counseling the next day, and the counselor was like, "Well, what is it that's bothered you? Like, is it the fact that it was supposed to be a good day and it ended, like, on a sour note?" And I was like, "Not really." "Was it the fact that you felt unsafe, that you had to, like, get the train home on your own and stuff?" And I was like, "No, it doesn't bother me." She was like, "Well, what is it about that that bothers you?" And I was like, "He said if the, if we lost, if I went home, he would come home with me, and he's, then he didn't do that. So why did he say it if he didn't mean it?" I was like, "It really, really bothers me." Like, I take words as gospel. If someone says something, then why, why say it if you don't mean it? Um, and then she just asked me the question, "Has it ever been looked into why you take things so literally?" And I was like, "No, it hasn't, but I think I know what you're hinting at here." And then I kind of went away and just, you know, [laughs] as we do, hyper-focused.

Alex Partridge 12:02 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 12:03 Just Googled everything that I could possibly find about autism, and then that led me to ADHD as well. Um, and just, yeah, everything just c- Was like, "Whoa, okay, yeah, this is, this is what's going on here"

Alex Partridge 12:14 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 12:14 Um, so yeah, a lot of luck really. It turned out that that counselor, her son was both autistic and ADHD.

Alex Partridge 12:20 Mm. Yeah.

Ellie Middleton 12:20 So I guess she was maybe able to pick up things in our previous conversations of like, hmm, but maybe it wasn't her place to like say anything. Um, but then at that point, yeah, I don't know. It's, I feel very lucky that that was the counselor that I ended up with. Like, if I hadn't have brought up that one specific... That's not something I would normally talk about in counseling. It was just like a, a one-off bicker. Um, but yeah, if that, if you hadn't have said that thing-

Alex Partridge 12:42 Mm

Ellie Middleton 12:42 ... I don't know if I'd have ever kind of come to that realization.

Alex Partridge 12:45 I think the, the journey you, you described of being diagnosed with anxiety and getting misdiagnosed, you're echoing the story of so many other people, I think. So I think they'll listen to that and see themselves in it. And the story, the particular story to you about the, the, what your partner said at the time, and then your, your doctor picking up on that is, is a really unique detail that I think a lot, a lot, a lot of people will find

Alex Partridge 13:10 super interesting. And then you got that diagnosis, and in that moment when you heard those words, in that exact moment, how did you f- feel?

Ellie Middleton 13:18 I think when I actually got my diagnosis, it was like complete like celebration. 'Cause I think it's obviously a quite a long process that you go through, and you've had to do so much research yourself.

Alex Partridge 13:28 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 13:29 And I think it's quite nerve-wracking, especially as like a, a woman or someone marginalized for their gender of like almost knowing that... Like I knew going into both assessments, like I knew or I really felt like I knew that I was autistic and that I did have ADHD. Um, but it was like, well, if the doctor that I end up with doesn't happen to be very clued up on, you know, autism in adults, they might be used to diagnosing children, if they're not used to diagnosing women or people marginalized for their gender, if they're not used to people who are very high masking, then it, there's a good likelihood that I could come out of this assessment and, and it be a no, even though it's a yes almost.

Alex Partridge 14:06 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 14:06 And I think, so I think there was a lot of nerves. So I think when I actually got the diagnosis, it was like relief and it was like celebration of like, I finally got my answers. Like I finally know what's going on here. 'Cause I think, yeah, it'd been a, a, I think like, I think a lot of the time I underestimate how like rough of a t- ride I've had. Like if I, I dropped out of school, like I physically could not leave the house to go to school. I had to decline my uni offers. Like that's, that's a really, like, I was really unwell.

Alex Partridge 14:34 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 14:34 And I think I kind of forget about that a lot of the time. Um, but I think in that moment it was like, it all like, it all makes sense now. It was like a way to like, I guess, dig myself out of it. I think since then there's obviously like the grief that comes up of like, well, what if I'd have been diagnosed earlier?

Alex Partridge 14:51 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 14:51 Like, I wouldn't have had such a hard time socially. I wouldn't have maybe had to drop out of school. Like I would've had a degree by now. I would, like, who knows what I would've been doing. Like I think that's come since. But I think at the very, like, at the first time it was just like, you know, thank God I've finally got an answer.

Alex Partridge 15:08 Mm. You hear so many stories similar to that where somebody gets a diagnosis perhaps a little bit later, and then they start unmasking, and they have to start the process of getting to know who they actually are. Um, so since your diagnosis, have you had any specific moments of self-discovery or self-acceptance?

Ellie Middleton 15:30 I think it's really ongoing, and I think it's so much more ongoing than you realize or like you're prepared for. Like, I think when I got that diagnosis, it was like, woo-hoo. Like I'm me now.

Alex Partridge 15:41 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 15:41 I know who I am. Like I can finally be myself. And I think I thought that that was kind of unmasking, that it was like-

Alex Partridge 15:48 Mm

Ellie Middleton 15:48 ... oh, okay, I'm just gonna, I don't know, let myself be a bit more chaotic. I'm not gonna force myself to make eye contact. It was that first initial wave and then it was actually like, oh no. Like the mask isn't just this like very thin thing at the front. It's like 90% of my personality.

Alex Partridge 16:05 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 16:05 Like it is literally who I've made myself be-

Alex Partridge 16:08 Mm

Ellie Middleton 16:08 ... all these years. Like I actually don't really know who's under there. Um, and I think it's because you've spent, in my case, like 24 years, 25 years, well, now 26 years being, 'cause I still am. I, I, I've been that person for such a long time. It's an- like the, it's not that I go into a situation and think, right, I'm gonna mask now. That's the natural state of being. It's like a really conscious effort to not mask.

Alex Partridge 16:33 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 16:34 Like it's a really conscious... Like it's so easy to slip back into that. I think it's like when you like step back, it's like an obvious thing. Like, well, of course you spent 24 years being one person, you're not suddenly gonna be able to just not be that person anymore.

Alex Partridge 16:48 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 16:48 Um, but it feels like it should be the most natural thing in the world to be yourself. But when you've spent so long not being yourself, then it's actually hard work. Like one, figuring out who yourself is, but two, letting that happen rather than just naturally slipping into a r- I think in private and with like my close circle, I'm unmasked like quite a lot now.

Alex Partridge 17:11 Mm-hmm.

Ellie Middleton 17:12 Um, my mum came, we were just saying before about my TED Talk. My, my mum came with me, and I obviously, I'm quite unmasked around my... Probably she's the person that sees me the most myself out of anybody. Um, and she obviously doesn't see me in like public settings that often.

Alex Partridge 17:30 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 17:30 And when afterwards when we came out, she was like, literally when you walked through that door to meet the other, the other people and like the people that were organizing it and stuff, she was like, it was literally like, like someone took over your body almost. And it was like, "Hi, like so nice to meet you."

Alex Partridge 17:44 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 17:44 And then she was like, "You're, that's, I've not seen that you in such a long time 'cause I've got used to you being more yourself." But yeah, I think it's, it's really ongoing and it's, it's hard work to not. I think for me as well, like, um, so I'm really into, like I'm a big football fan. Um, I'm really into indie music and those, I don't know, those things like going to gigs and going to football matches- In any other situation would be like my worst nightmare 'cause it's like loud, busy, people close to you.

Alex Partridge 18:17 Mm-hmm.

Ellie Middleton 18:17 Like a lot going on. Um, so for me it's like figuring out, like, do I actually like those things? And then I kind of don't mind the sensory stress that comes with it. Or do I just feel like I have to enjoy going to gigs because I like indie music?

Alex Partridge 18:32 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 18:32 And it's like, do I actually enjoy going to football matches, or do I just enjoy football, so I feel like to be a proper football fan I have to go-

Alex Partridge 18:40 Mm

Ellie Middleton 18:40 ... to the matches? Um, and I think that's a tricky one to figure out, 'cause it is a hard balance of like, well yeah, I do enjoy these things, but they, they cause me a lot of like [laughs] a lot of stress as well.

Alex Partridge 18:50 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 18:50 I think it is a really weird one of like, yeah, navigating, navigating who that, that person is.

Alex Partridge 18:56 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 18:56 I read as well, I think it was in Unmasking Autism by Dr. Stephen Price, um, he talks about how because of a lot of the stereotypes of autism are like this like Sheldon Cooper character, there's almost like this internalized ableism of like fear of unmasking. 'Cause it's like, well, what if the unmasked version under... Like, what if the Ellie behind all this mask is really annoying-

Alex Partridge 19:21 Mm

Ellie Middleton 19:21 ... really socially awkward? What if it's basically Sheldon Cooper hiding there inside of me? [laughs]

Alex Partridge 19:26 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 19:27 And I, if I start unmasking, then that's gonna be who I am and no one's gonna like me.

Alex Partridge 19:31 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 19:31 And I'm gonna be this, like, I don't know, difficult person, um, because of that. I think that's a really interesting thing as well. 'Cause it's like you like to think that you're accepting of yourself and you're, you know, not, not feeling ableist things about autistic people or ADHD people.

Alex Partridge 19:49 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 19:49 But there is, I think, in all of us still that bit of fear of like, "Oh, well, what if I let my guard down and then I'm this incredibly annoying person?" So it does kind of, you cling onto the mask a little bit.

Alex Partridge 19:59 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 19:59 Like, oh, well at least I know that they like this version a little bit.

Alex Partridge 20:02 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 20:02 Like [laughs] they might not like me the most, but at least they like me a bit, so maybe I'll keep that safety blanket.

Alex Partridge 20:07 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 20:07 But yeah, I think it's a really ongoing process.

Alex Partridge 20:10 As a, just continuing the c- topic of masking a little bit, but transitioning into another area. As a atis- autistic ADHDer who is owning being your true self and taking off the

Alex Partridge 20:23 mask, h- how does that go? What does dating look like in that situation? [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 20:28 I feel like I've had to completely, uh, start again, I think. I think the first thing that I kind of realized was like that my type is probably so different to what I thought it was. I think it was almost like I'd... My type of who I was attracted to was almost copied, again, like part of mimicking. It was like, "Oh, well, everybody else thinks that he's good-looking-

Alex Partridge 20:51 Mm

Ellie Middleton 20:51 ... so he's good-looking, and everybody else fancies him-

Alex Partridge 20:52 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 20:53 ... so I must fancy him." And I think a lot of my type had been learnt from that. And I think it was, like, looking back, it was a very, like, specific type as well. So it was almost like, "Oh yes, I've learnt that that is the person that I'm supposed to be attracted to and I'm supposed to date, so I'll just find a clone of that person every single time."

Alex Partridge 21:12 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 21:12 So I think the first part was realizing, actually unmasking is realizing who am I actually attracted to, not just who I've thought is the right person to be attracted to.

Alex Partridge 21:20 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 21:20 And I think that's looked like, you know, widening the type of, like, men that I was dating, but also a lot of, like, things that I haven't even worked out yet of like, am I, am I straight? I don't know. 'Cause I've just learnt that being straight is, you know, there's a lot of compulsory, like, heteronormativity. A- am I straight, or have I just copied being straight from all the people around me? That was a really... I don't, I still don't know the answer [laughs] to that question.

Alex Partridge 21:42 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 21:42 Um, so I think that was a big one of like-

Alex Partridge 21:43 Mm

Ellie Middleton 21:43 ... yeah, rediscovering who do I actually want to date. Um, and I think masking, I think even now, like, even the last person that I've dated, like in the summer, I look back at that time and I'm like, I was masking so much more during the time that I was dating that person versus m- my usual self. Because it's almost easy to slip into that character of like, "Oh, this is who I am on a date. Like-

Alex Partridge 22:04 Mm

Ellie Middleton 22:05 ... this is, you know, I play the woman and they [laughs] play the man."

Alex Partridge 22:08 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 22:08 "And then this is..." I don't know. I think it's really easy to slip into, like, who you think you should be on a... I think everyone-

Alex Partridge 22:13 Mm

Ellie Middleton 22:13 ... has that element of, like, wanting to impress the person, right?

Alex Partridge 22:17 Yeah. Mm.

Ellie Middleton 22:17 But I think when you're masking that is, like, amplified so much more. Um, but I think, like, refiguring out what I need from somebody as well is really important. Like, I know now that communication is really important to me, that clarity is really important. I can't read between the lines. I, if you don't tell me what we are, I have got no idea what we are, and I'll just be anxious all the time [laughs] 'cause I won't know what's going on. So I think, like, finding somebody that is comfortable enough to be clear, be open, be honest, um, which is not very [laughs] easy to do, I think. Um, I was like talking to my counselor about it, and she was like, "Being an autistic person who dates men-

Alex Partridge 22:54 Mm

Ellie Middleton 22:54 ... is a very difficult job to do, because the way that men are socialized is to not be open about their feelings and to not be clear," um, which isn't necessarily-

Alex Partridge 23:04 Mm

Ellie Middleton 23:04 ... their fault. That's just like the way that we're all socialized in, like, a patriarchal world. So it's very [laughs] difficult to do.

Alex Partridge 23:10 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 23:10 I think it's still a work in progress. Um, but yeah, I think it's basically been starting again from zero of like, who do I want? Do I... Like, what do I want a relationship to look like? 'Cause I also know that I need a lot of time to myself, and I need a lot of time to unwind. Um, yeah, what do I need from somebody? I think it is-

Alex Partridge 23:29 Mm

Ellie Middleton 23:29 ... basically starting all over again. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 23:32 She had so much relatability. And I'm thinking about, um, when you meet someone and you go on a first date, the societal expectation is you go out for dinner. And for me, that's my worst nightmare, if I'm honest with myself. I don't really like sort of sat across a table. I get frustrated with having to wait for the bill at the end, all this kind of stuff. So I suppose my question as a autistic ADHDer, what does your ideal first date look like?

Ellie Middleton 23:56 Yeah, I think as a rule I would do, like, no sitting across a table from each other.

Alex Partridge 24:00 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 24:00 'Cause again, it is like I don't want to just you feel uncomfortable the whole time 'cause you're not used to the fact that-

Alex Partridge 24:05 Mm

Ellie Middleton 24:05 ... I don't make eye contact, and I don't want me to feel like I should be making eye contact with you the whole time. So that's like a general rule of no sitting across the table from each other. I think, I don't know, I think a, like- I quite like just going for a drink 'cause I feel like I'm quite a, a pub person rather than like a bar or fancy place person. I'm quite an old man pub person. So like going for a drink, but I think activity dates are a good one-

Alex Partridge 24:25 Mm

Ellie Middleton 24:25 ... because you're doing something and it gives you something to talk about-

Alex Partridge 24:27 Yeah

Ellie Middleton 24:27 ... rather than like trying to come up with small talk. Um, but I think it's a hard one to navigate for me as well, 'cause quite a lot of my life is online now, so I alw- I always feel like a really weird balance of, oh, they probably know a lot more about me than I know about them-

Alex Partridge 24:41 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 24:41 ... 'cause I'm just sharing my whole life constantly on the internet. So I think that's a weird one. But yeah, I would say an activity date is a good one 'cause you've got like a thing to talk about, like, I don't know, mini golf or bowling or whatever.

Alex Partridge 24:52 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 24:52 Um, and a walk's quite nice 'cause you're again not having to make eye-

Alex Partridge 24:55 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 24:55 I think eye contact is the biggest one for me to avoid on a first date. Um...

Alex Partridge 24:59 Just movement as well I feel-

Ellie Middleton 25:00 Yeah

Alex Partridge 25:00 ... just allows m- my brain to think better.

Ellie Middleton 25:05 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 25:05 I think getting to know someone if we're moving, we're doing something active rather than just sat at, at a table, I think you're gonna get a better version of me.

Ellie Middleton 25:10 Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think you're less thinking about, "Oh, what should I say? What should I do?"

Alex Partridge 25:16 Yeah.

Ellie Middleton 25:16 Like, "How am I gonna move this conversation on?" and you're more just-

Alex Partridge 25:18 Mm

Ellie Middleton 25:18 ... being a human. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 25:20 Do you think you're quite sensitive to rejection?

Ellie Middleton 25:22 Yeah. [laughs] Yes.

Alex Partridge 25:23 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 25:24 Um, I think this is one that has like made a lot of things make sense when you like first have that moment where you learn about RSD and you're like, "Ah, okay, this, this makes a lot of sense." But I think for me it more shows up as that I'm a massive people pleaser. I think obviously there's like the, the emotional side that comes when, like there is rejection or perceived rejection, but I think for me it's almost like preventative. Like I will never get to the point of rejection because I will do everything in my power to make you like me. Um, and I think that's been a really hard one to work through. I think it's, again, like the mask, it's like you can't just stop being a people pleaser one day. It's like your natural reaction to do anything and everything to be the most palatable person-

Alex Partridge 26:05 Mm

Ellie Middleton 26:05 ... in the whole entire world. Um, but yeah, I guess that's another thing that I'm trying to work through at the moment.

Alex Partridge 26:11 [laughs] It must be hard c- 'cause if you, if you take off the mask and then you are your truer self, you're probably opening yourself up to rejection more because you're actively stopping yourself from being a people pleaser.

Ellie Middleton 26:25 Yeah. I think it's like the double whammy, isn't it? Because it's like you're stopping being a people pleaser, so people are gonna be less pleased I guess.

Alex Partridge 26:34 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 26:34 But then I think also, like unfortunately we live in a world that is still quite ableist, that isn't very well receiving of an unmasked autistic ADHD person.

Alex Partridge 26:45 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 26:45 So it's like I am, it's not right, but it's true that if I am more openly autistic I am gonna experience more rejection because people aren't used to seeing an unmasked autistic person or aren't, you know, it's we're living in quite an ableist world. So if I am, I don't know, making less eye contact, if I am talking like, I don't know, talking more about my special interest rather than making pleasant small talk, it's more likely that people are... You know, if I'm naturally being more blunt and monotonous in the way that I communicate, it's likely that those things are gonna cause more rejection anyway.

Alex Partridge 27:22 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 27:22 So I think that's really hard to deal with as like when you have ADHD, so you've got the RSD and you're trying to unmask as an autistic person, that's a really hard thing to do because it's like I want to learn to be my true self, but I also know that in doing that, less people are gonna like me, and that's a really ha- like it's like double, like, I don't know, it's like a, a-

Alex Partridge 27:42 Mm

Ellie Middleton 27:42 ... rock and a hard place of like, okay, well I can keep masking, which is gonna exhaust me, it's gonna make me unwell, but at least people are gonna like me a bit more. Or I've got to unmask and I've got to deal with the fact that actually less people are gonna be nice about that I guess.

Alex Partridge 27:57 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 27:58 I think it's something that I really, um, struggle with in my work as well because I, as bad as it is, I know that a lot of the reason for my, um, like relative success I think is like that I'm quite a palatable... Like I am still quite heavily masked and I'm still, you know, I have white privilege, I have pretty privilege, I have able-bodied privilege. When I go in to talk at a workplace, for example, I'm still quite a palatable person for them to see. I'm still quite nice and bubbly and chatty-

Alex Partridge 28:29 Mm

Ellie Middleton 28:30 ... and smiley and all of those things, whereas if I unmask more and more and I turn up and I don't take off my ear defenders because I'm dealing with the fact that the sound is too loud and I'm openly stimming and I'm rocking backwards and forwards or, you know, I'm communicating in a really blunt and concise way, that's less comfortable for the people that are in the audience 'cause they're not used to seeing that. They're, they've not probably seen-

Alex Partridge 28:53 Mm

Ellie Middleton 28:53 ... a lot of unmasked like traits before. So it means that they're less likely to take on my message because it's like they're dealing with all of that, "Ooh, I'm not sure how I feel about this person that is very different to people that I've seen before."

Alex Partridge 29:07 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 29:07 So they're not learn- they're not taking on as much of what I'm saying, so I'm making less impact, but also I, I can't make that much impact if I'm constantly masking. If my whole thing is like talking about unmasking and then I'm turning up as a highly, highly masked person, then-

Alex Partridge 29:20 Mm

Ellie Middleton 29:20 ... I'm also not... It's a really hard one to kind of... I think it's, you know, o- one, one that's really hard for me to, to like come to terms with as well is like, and I know that the more that I do become like visibly different, the, the less palatable I'm gonna be, and probably the more, um, like unpleasant comments that I'm opening myself up for as well. You know? Like as of now I'm quite lucky that I don't get, touch wood, [laughs] that much hate on the internet, but if I was again stimming more openly and rocking backwards and forwards or not looking at the camera and all of those things, then I probably would receive more negative feedback as well.

Alex Partridge 30:00 Mm. It's so important to address the points that you've made, and you're, you're doing that all the time in the work and the content that you put out on the various social media platforms. All you're doing is you're normalizing all of this behavior. There are millions of other versions of you, um- Perhaps stopping themselves from doing, or they'll see you normalizing it, and then they'll be able- they'll feel slightly more confident and comfortable in doing that. That's the value that I see of... One of the values of what you're doing online,

Alex Partridge 30:30 and that's led to a book-

Ellie Middleton 30:34 Yes

Alex Partridge 30:34 ... which I'm very excited to talk about.

Ellie Middleton 30:36 Yes, I think-

Alex Partridge 30:37 How did that happen?

Ellie Middleton 30:38 Yeah, so I don't know. It's all a bit of a whirlwind, really. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 30:41 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 30:42 Um, it still doesn't feel real, I don't think. So yeah, when I- I'd started working with a management agency, um, and I decided that one of the things was, that I wanted to do would be to write a book.

Alex Partridge 30:51 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 30:51 Um, I think for a variety of reasons. I think 'cause it's somewhere that I could go into a lot more detail. Like, everything that I'd done up to that point was social media, which is very short form, and it's, you know, it's all well and good, but it, you can't really share that much in a 60-second video. So I think that was the first thing, that I wanted more space to kind of dig into things. Um, but I also think it was a bit of like a, a, I don't know how to, what the word is, but I think I felt because I'd dropped out of school, I think that was a thing that I'd, I'd held quite, like, bitter for quite a long time, that I don't have A levels, I don't have a degree, um, I'm never gonna be an expert. And I think it was like, "Oh, actually, I can almost bypass that. If I'm an author, then authors are experts"-

Alex Partridge 31:32 [laughs] Yeah

Ellie Middleton 31:32 ... where that's not the case at all. Like, having a book or not having a book doesn't make someone any more or less of an expert, especially when we're talking about, like, things that are our lived experience. But I think for me it was like, "Oh, people will take me seriously if I write a book."

Alex Partridge 31:44 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 31:44 [laughs] So that was, like, part of it. Um, so I met with my literary agent, and, um, a few different ideas were floating about, about what I could do. Um, and, uh, Rachel, my literary agent, who's amazing, she was like, "I still don't feel like there is, like, the book on ADHD and autism." Like, with different things, like, uh, I don't know, attachment theory, Attached is, like, the book. And with, um, I don't know, depression-

Alex Partridge 32:10 Mm

Ellie Middleton 32:10 ... there was, like, Prozac Nation, and there was Lost Connections, and there's, like, these books that people go back to time and time and time again which are, like, the go-to book. Um, but with autism and ADHD, although there are so many brilliant books out there, um, they're generally either separate, like, a just an ADHD book or an autism book, or, um, they're on, like, more niche things, where I was like there isn't, like, the go-to first port of call book.

Alex Partridge 32:32 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 32:32 And I was like, "I could do that." [laughs]

Alex Partridge 32:34 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 32:34 Um, so that was kind of where we got to.

Alex Partridge 32:36 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 32:36 And then, um, yeah, it was Penguin that wanted it, which is amazing, and the, the team there have been absolutely wonderful in, like, making it really, like, a pleasant experience.

Alex Partridge 32:45 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 32:45 I think so many people are like, "Don't write a book, it's awful," like, "It's so stressful," um, and I haven't found... Obviously, there's been moments where I've been like, "Ah," but I haven't found it like that at all. It's been really enjoyable. Um, they've been great and yeah, I, it still doesn't feel very real at all. I think I won't really process it until it's actually in people's h- I think I get a paper copy this week, and then it's like-

Alex Partridge 33:04 Amazing. So-

Ellie Middleton 33:04 ... uh, three weeks until it actually comes out, so.

Alex Partridge 33:07 Gosh, that's a proper pinch me moment, isn't it?

Ellie Middleton 33:10 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 33:10 When you get, when you get a book deal, and then you get the actual book in your hand. I bet you're excited.

Ellie Middleton 33:14 Yeah, that's gonna be very strange, I think. But yeah, it's very exciting. I'm really excited for, for people to get their hands on it, and I think I'm happy that, like, whether or not it was me that wrote it, that that ex- that resource exists. 'Cause I think a lot of the time when you get diagnosed, um, first of all, you don't really know where to turn to yourself. But secondly, because I think a lot of us, the way that we've understood it is through social media and through so many different collective experiences, but there's not really one place where you can, like, signpost a friend or family member-

Alex Partridge 33:45 Mm

Ellie Middleton 33:45 ... because you've done all of this different research in so many different places to finally understand yourself, but you can't then send, I don't know, 100 different links-

Alex Partridge 33:53 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 33:53 ... for everyone to... But whereas-

Alex Partridge 33:54 Mm

Ellie Middleton 33:54 ... I feel like the book is something that you could give to your partner, to your friend, to your colleague of, like, "Here you go. If you read this, you'll understand me a lot better." So yeah, I'm happy that that exists for, for people as well.

Alex Partridge 34:06 Are you allowed to say if there's a particular chapter or a particular bit that you enjoyed writing the most?

Ellie Middleton 34:12 Ooh, I think all of it was really nice to do. I think be- I think because it's all stuff that I've spent so long, again, researching and looking into and obsessing over and talking about, that it almost just, like, [laughs] naturally just, like-

Alex Partridge 34:26 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 34:26 ... came out, like it was all in there stirring.

Alex Partridge 34:28 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 34:29 Um, I think the one that was, like, um, maybe most difficult to write but most rewarding once I'd got it all out, um, was I wrote... Well, a couple maybe. I wrote about, like, late diagnosis and mental health, so that's quite, like, a personal one about my experience. So I think that was quite, um, I don't know, it was really hard to do, but it was quite a nice way to process it-

Alex Partridge 34:52 Mm

Ellie Middleton 34:52 ... and get it into, like, okay, that, that happened and I've written it down, and yeah, I think that was quite a nice one. And then I've also written a chapter about, um, like, pretty privilege and ableism, so almost, like, how because society has this idea of, like, disabled equals bad or that a disabled person looks a certain way or whatever it might be-

Alex Partridge 35:11 Mm

Ellie Middleton 35:11 ... that that's a lot of the reason why people go undiagnosed, 'cause people look at me and they see normal person. Um, they don't then understand that that normal person is also a disabled person.

Alex Partridge 35:24 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 35:24 Um, so that one was quite, again, a tricky chapter to navigate, but it was, it felt really, um, yeah, nice to see it all come together, and it felt quite rewarding to have it, like, all there, sort of, like, made sense of it kind of thing.

Alex Partridge 35:39 Such a good idea, 'cause you've put so much valuable content out on social media, b- and if you wanna kind of find specific bits, you have to either scroll down loads of LinkedIn or Instagram. But to compact it all into a book, I think it's gonna be so valuable for the community, and I personally can't wait to get my hands on it. I'm so excited.

Ellie Middleton 35:55 Yeah, I hope so. Fingers

Ellie Middleton 35:56 crossed. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 35:57 When you're having meetings with Penguin, and you're sat in their office and they're saying they wanna sign you as a, an author, do you get imposter syndrome?

Ellie Middleton 36:05 Yeah, massively. I think that was one, I think that was one of the main moments where it's been like, "What is actually going on here?" Like, I think-

Alex Partridge 36:12 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 36:13 ... I think it is, I think it's the imposter syndrome kind of, but I think it's also just, like- How surreal it feels. Like, I think it makes me really emotional. Like, I think I touched on the fact that, like, I, I underestimate so much of the time, like, how much of a, a rough ride it's been up until this point.

Alex Partridge 36:30 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 36:30 So when it's like moments like that, it's like, "Oh my goodness, I, I had to drop out of school and now I'm writing a book with the biggest publishing house in the world?" Like, that is, like, there's no word. That is wild. Um, so I think it's more that, that it's, like, a big thing to process.

Alex Partridge 36:46 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 36:46 Which I think can be hard as well when you're autistic, that people understand that we struggle to process big emotions, like, when they're negative ones, but also big positive emotions are just as equally difficult [laughs] to process. Like, I think when you've had a rough time growing up, you learn ... And because we naturally, I think both ADHDers and autistic people, we feel things so intensely, you almost learn that you can't, like, you have to, like, keep big feelings at arm's length because it's like, "If I let this come in at its full wave, this is gonna knock me out." [laughs] So I think we've learnt to do that to deal with, like, big bad feelings.

Alex Partridge 37:22 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 37:22 And it's like, "Keep them at arm's length, because otherwise this is gonna take me out." But then it's also difficult for the big good feelings to come through, because it's like your body can't really differentiate, which it, it just feels like, "Ooh, big feeling, this is scary. We must keep this over there."

Alex Partridge 37:36 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 37:36 So I think I, it takes me a while to process things as well. Um, but yeah, definitely. I think it's, like, double imposter syndrome as well because it's like the normal stuff of, like, "Yeah, I am just a normal 20 ... well, 26-year-old now, at the time, person. Like, I don't have a degree. I've only been diagnosed not a very long time."

Alex Partridge 37:54 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 37:54 Like, "Do I know what I'm talking about? Like, am I sure that I have enough information to write this book?" But then I think there's the double thing of almost, like, the ableism side as well of, like, "Am I gonna be able to write a book when I can't even sit still [laughs] for five minutes? Like, are they gonna take me seriously in this meeting when I can't look them in the eye, when I'm sat with a fidget toy?" Like, that feels quite silly, I think. You know, I'm trying to, um, teach people that it's okay.

Alex Partridge 38:21 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 38:21 But it's still, there is a little bit of you that's like, "Come on, Ellie, you're in a meeting with Penguin. Why are you playing with a toy?" Um, so I think there is, that kind of like adds to it as well.

Alex Partridge 38:29 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 38:29 That it's, the, the thoughts in your head are almost double of, like, the natural imposter syndrome that everybody feels. And then there's also the, like, "Come on, Ellie, like, stop fidgeting or doodling, 'cause they're gonna think that you're not listening," or, "Come on," like, "look them in the eye 'cause you want them to take you seriously."

Alex Partridge 38:42 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 38:42 I think that, like, adds to it as well.

Alex Partridge 38:45 It's so inspiring, 'cause I think, you know, the first person that stands up against the stereotype and unashamedly takes that fidget toy into a meeting or on stage and does a talk with it, they're the ones that are gonna get the most resistance from other people. So it takes a huge amount of bravery to be one of the first, which is why I think so much people have admiration and respect for the work you're doing. You're putting, you're, like, putting hope and confidence into a whole generation of people below you and a- above you, a whole community, to just normalize a particular bit of behavior that, that people were ashamed to do before. I think that's why, part of the reason why so many people have, have, have, have gravitated to, to you as an individual online.

Ellie Middleton 39:30 Thanks. I think it's ... Like, in a weird way I think knowing that or feeling that as well helps me because it's like, okay, even if I feel slightly uncomfortable going on stage with my fidget toy, I know that this is helping other people to do that.

Alex Partridge 39:43 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 39:43 So it's almost, I think it works both ways of, like, it helps other people if I do it, 'cause they feel able to, but me knowing, not the pressure, but almost, like, the, the feeling of, like, this will in turn help others-

Alex Partridge 39:55 Mm

Ellie Middleton 39:55 ... um, makes it easier for me to do it for mys- I think, like, when you're advocating for yourself as well, like, that feels so uncomfortable. Like, for anybody it feels so scary to be like, "Actually, I need these accommodations," or, "I have these needs," or, "I need you to do this thing for me," or, "I need this support." That feels really scary to do for yourself. But if I can tell myself, "Okay, if I, I don't know, ask for an agenda ahead of this call, then that makes it easier for other people who have meetings with these people to ask for an agenda."

Alex Partridge 40:23 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 40:23 "If I ask about a quiet space at an event, then it means that there's a quiet space there for other people there that need it that might not..." It's almost like, I guess it's a bit of a people-pleasing [laughs] but in a good way.

Alex Partridge 40:33 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 40:33 Um, so I think it, it does work both ways of, like, it's, it's helpful for me to know that other people are gonna benefit from-

Alex Partridge 40:41 Mm

Ellie Middleton 40:41 ... my little moment of scariness.

Alex Partridge 40:45 I saw a really interesting post you did, I think it was on LinkedIn, where you spoke about the autism paradox. Can you, for the listeners of this, can you explain what you meant by that?

Ellie Middleton 40:56 Yeah. So I spoke about how, um, like, as an autistic person, I naturally kind of remove myself, like keep myself to myself and go in my own little bubble quite often. Um, but then because of that feel lonely. So it's almost like the overwhelm of the way that the world is isn't set up for autistic people to be a part of in terms of, like, sensory stuff, in terms of social situations. Like, everything is quite draining.

Alex Partridge 41:20 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 41:20 So it's natural for us to kind of bring ourselves back and keep ourself to ourselves and isolate ourselves. Um, but then it's like, "Oh, well then, you know, why is, why is no one invite me places, and why is no one talking to me?"

Alex Partridge 41:32 [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 41:32 It's like, well, because you don't go anywhere. If you say no every time, then people are gonna stop inviting you. Um, but I think it is a really, a really tricky thing to navigate.

Alex Partridge 41:42 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 41:42 I think especially as an, someone that's an ADHDer as well as autistic, it's like I really have to really be careful of managing my energy. 'Cause if I let the ADHD take over, it's so easy to just, like, Ferrari it and take on everything and say yes to everything and have 100 things coming up. And then the autistic burnout is, like, a ticking time bomb waiting to happen.

Alex Partridge 42:03 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 42:03 So I have to really be careful not to do too much, 'cause I know the consequences of that is that I'll be burnt out and I won't be able to get out of bed for a week. So that means saying no to a lot of stuff, which means isolate myself. I think especially for me when I've got loads of exciting things happening in, like, my career and, and work, that naturally means that I have to- Save the energy and can't do as many things like social-wise.

Alex Partridge 42:29 Mm-hmm.

Ellie Middleton 42:29 I think it's the same for everybody, that, you know, you don't... We're in a world where it wouldn't feel right to take a day off sick because you were stressed from work, but then see a friend in the evening. We would feel some sort of guilt for that, 'cause it's like, "Oh, well, if I'm off sick, then I've got to be really sick and I can't leave the house," which, you know, isn't the case if you're... That's two completely different things that you have the capacity for or not for.

Alex Partridge 42:51 Mm-hmm.

Ellie Middleton 42:51 But that's how we feel, that we feel that the work stuff has to be the priority. Um, and if we... Then it's like all the other stuff that recharges us has to be the one that gets wiped off, you know-

Alex Partridge 43:02 Mm

Ellie Middleton 43:02 ... when we're trying to save some charge. Um, but yeah, I think that's, you know, [laughs] it's not the case. We need to all get better at realizing, actually, this is the battery that I have, and I don't need to drain it with the work stuff. And then if there's any little tiny scraps left, I can do nice things. Like-

Alex Partridge 43:17 Mm

Ellie Middleton 43:17 ... I'm allowed to use, like save a good half of it- [laughs]

Alex Partridge 43:20 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 43:20 ... for like social things

Ellie Middleton 43:21 and nice things. So yeah.

Alex Partridge 43:22 If you could go back in time pre-diagnosis to that moment you felt different, do you have any words of inspiration for younger Ellie?

Ellie Middleton 43:31 Yeah, I think I would say like focus on the people that love you rather than the ones that don't. I think for my whole high school exper- well, my whole growing up experience, it was like very much, I always wanted to find a way to make, like to fit in with the popular people and to make everybody like me.

Alex Partridge 43:49 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 43:49 And that was like please everybody and just be liked, be popular, when actually if I'd have focused on finding one or two friends that actually really liked me and were, you know, maybe not the most popular people in the world, but they were more similar to me, and I, I could have had genuine friends rather than trying to make everybody like me and ending up with no real friends. Finding just like focusing on, yeah, the people that liked me rather than trying to win over the ones that didn't.

Alex Partridge 44:16 Mm. Yeah. No, that's amazing. I think a lot of people will listen to that and, um, it's almost like you're speaking to a younger generation who haven't quite got the awareness perhaps that you have now. And as you're sort of giving them that, that little bit of advice, I think it will sh- super, super helpful.

Ellie Middleton 44:31 I think as well, like hopefully we're moving towards a world slightly where I think it's still probably not nice for the outsiders, but I think there is in like all ways that it's kind of a bit more okay to be, I don't know, weird or a bit of an outsider or to have your own interests.

Alex Partridge 44:46 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 44:46 Whereas I think when I was, you know, a teenager, it was very much like either you fit in or you have the worst time in the whole entire world.

Alex Partridge 44:54 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 44:54 Um, so I think it's like now hopefully we're, we're, if, you know, if I was at school now, I'd be able to find people that were into the stuff that I was into rather than-

Alex Partridge 45:03 Mm

Ellie Middleton 45:03 ... just like, yeah, b- forcing myself to be somebody that I really wasn't.

Alex Partridge 45:08 Bit of a fun one maybe.

Alex Partridge 45:10 What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done?

Ellie Middleton 45:13 Ooh, I mean, I'm literally covered in tattoos. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 45:15 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 45:16 And most of them were like just walking into a tattoo shop and going, "I'd like that one now, please." So I'd say that was, that was probably a sign, like someone probably should have looked at the fact that I was covered in tattoos. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 45:26 Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 45:27 And like none of them had been booked in advance. Probably should have gone, "Mm, maybe-

Alex Partridge 45:30 Yeah

Ellie Middleton 45:30 ... there's something about your impulse control that's slightly off here." [laughs]

Alex Partridge 45:33 [laughs] I've got one which was in, uh, Las Vegas up the Stratosphere. That was very, uh, very impulsive. A long story, that one. [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 45:38 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 45:39 Um,

Alex Partridge 45:40 what do you say to the people who say that ADHD is just a trend?

Ellie Middleton 45:46 This one really infuriates me. I think, you know, it's not a trend. It's... There's no benefit to saying that you have ADHD when you don't. I think people think that it's like, "Oh yeah, I'll jump on this thing for, I don't know, a bit of attention or whatever." Well, I don't get any positive attention. [laughs] Like it's not a positive, you know, if anything, people look down on it rather than, you know, a pr- like thinking that it's a cool thing to have. Um, but I think that massively underestimates the... It's a disability and it has a disabling effect on so many people's lives. Like, I had to drop out of school. That's a, you know, it's not something that I've just gone, "Oh yeah, it'd be quite, quite cool to have this." Like, it's had a massive effect on my life-

Alex Partridge 46:24 Mm

Ellie Middleton 46:24 ... as it has on, you know, it's got to have had a massive effect on your life for you to be able to get diagnosed. That's part of the diagnostic criteria. So I think, one, it's not a trend. Two, saying it's a trend massively undermines the experiences of the people. And three, like the last thing that we need to be doing right now is to put people off from going for a diagnosis, because the people that are getting diagnosed now have been let down by the system their entire life. They've been undiagnosed, they've been unsupported, they've been unmedicated, they've been misunderstood. They're finally getting those answers-

Alex Partridge 46:54 Mm

Ellie Middleton 46:54 ... which is gonna change their whole life going forward and change the way that they look at their whole lives going backwards. They're gonna like, uh, you know, forgive themselves. They're gonna understand the way that they've been. So that moment is life-changing for so many people. But if people are saying, "Oh, it's a trend, everyone's getting diagnosed now," people might put off going to their doctors. They might put off telling anyone about their diagnosis. They might put off even looking into it 'cause they think, "Oh no, I'm not, I don't wanna get accused of jumping on the bandwagon."

Alex Partridge 47:17 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 47:17 And that is like the last thing that we need to do. Like, I am proof that getting that moment changes and can change your whole life. So why would we want to scare people off from that? Why-

Alex Partridge 47:26 Mm

Ellie Middleton 47:26 ... like, we need to just support people rather than, I don't know, looking down on it in any sort of way.

Alex Partridge 47:31 Gosh, yeah. No, powerful. Don't think anyone could have said that better.

Ellie Middleton 47:34 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 47:35 Um, amazing.

Alex Partridge 47:38 Can you explain what body doubling is?

Ellie Middleton 47:41 Yeah. So body doubling is kind of a tool that people use to help with productivity. So it's basically the idea that someone, you're copying the body of somebody else essentially. So someone either sits alongside you while you're doing a task, or you can do it virtually as well by Zoom.

Alex Partridge 47:59 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 47:59 But, um, basically the idea that, yeah, you're doing a task alongside somebody else. So me and my friend Charlie, we body double every, not today though, [laughs] every Monday morning. We have an hour every week in our calendars where we body double. So we just sit for an hour on a video call, and we both do any admin tasks that we need to do. Um, and just basically the, the accountability of having someone sat there doing the same thing that you're doing-

Alex Partridge 48:21 Mm

Ellie Middleton 48:21 ... helps to motivate you to do it. Um, so it could be the same thing as literally just having someone come and, uh, clean alongside you while you're cleaning, or sit alongside you while you're studying, or even going to a cafe. 'Cause if you go to a cafe, it tends to be that other people in that cafe are working.

Alex Partridge 48:35 Mm.

Ellie Middleton 48:35 So basically just, yeah, another human doing the same thing that you're doing at the same time helps you to be accountable to doing that thing.

Alex Partridge 48:41 Fascinating. Thank you so much, Ellie. Um, and finally, when's, I should have asked this before, when's the book out? [laughs]

Ellie Middleton 48:48 The book is out on the 26th of October, which is so soon.

Alex Partridge 48:51 People can pre-order it now, right?

Ellie Middleton 48:51 Yeah. It's pr- available to pre-order now, and pre-orders are, I hate doing this like self-promotion thing.

Alex Partridge 48:56 Yeah.

Ellie Middleton 48:56 But pre-orders are really great for authors 'cause it lets retailers know that people are actually interested in the book, so then more places are likely to stock it, which means it's more likely to get in the hands of people that would benefit from it. So yeah, you can pre-order it now, and I'm so excited for it to get in people's hands.

Alex Partridge 49:09 I can't wait to read it, and I will put all that, all the links to it in the show notes.

Ellie Middleton 49:13 Awesome.

Alex Partridge 49:13 Ellie, thank you so much for your time.

Ellie Middleton 49:16 Thank you so much for having me. [upbeat music]