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ADHD Chatter PodcastADHD Chatter Podcast

Europe's No.1 ADHD Doctor: Women Deserved Better! | Dr. Tony Lloyd PhD

Dr Tony Lloyd is a leading ADHD specialist. He has been the driving force in promoting neurodiversity in the UK and campaigned for a neurodiverse paradigm in education, health services, employment and human resource management.

Dr. Tony LloydguestAlex Partridgehost
Apr 28, 20251h 0mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:47

    Trailer

    1. TL

      Women didn't have ADHD. Women didn't have dyslexia.

    2. AP

      Mm.

    3. TL

      Women didn't have anything. Women were just ignored. Why did we overlook all those girls in school?

    4. AP

      What is, like, the effect of that on the developing mind?

    5. TL

      Heartbreaking. To be told all your life that, you know, it's in your imagination, there's nothing wrong with you, or you're depressed, you've got something wrong with your brain chemistry, and here's medication that's-

    6. AP

      Mm

    7. TL

      ... gonna put it right, which actually it doesn't. Being given a prescription doesn't make your ADHD go away, and it certainly doesn't teach you how to live successfully with it.

    8. AP

      Dr. Tony Lloyd is a psychologist. Academic and ADHD specialist with over 20 years experience. As the CEO of the ADHD Foundation. The largest neurodiversity charity in Europe. He's an expert in all things ADHD

    9. TL

      Not everybody wants a diagnosis. Not everybody needs a diagnosis. Certainly, not everybody wants medication, but there's only 250,000 children and adults combined who access medication as a way of managing ADHD for themselves in the UK, out of three million, so it's not over-diagnosed. There's eight and a half million people taking antidepressants. Cultural stigma and shaming still exists. Let's move past this idea that, you know, you've gotta think like me in order to have a place in society.

    10. AP

      Loyal listeners and viewers, I can't thank you enough for tuning in. If you've ever felt broken or different, I hope this helps in your search for answers and community. And do you know what would really help me in return? By clicking the follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening. It might not seem like much, but at ADHD Chatter, it means a huge deal, and with this, I can book more incredible guests and keep the self-discovery fire alive for all of us, myself included. Just one click of a button goes really far. And remember, you have always been enough. [upbeat jingle]

  2. 1:47 – 8:20

    What’s your mission in regards to ADHD

    1. AP

      What is your mission in regards to ADHD?

    2. TL

      Um, it evolved, to be honest, Alex. I think it was that thing about I, I, I wanted people to better understand it. Um, there was so much myth and stigma and misunderstanding and ignorance and shame about it. Um, and the more I heard, you know, there was these recurring themes all the time, and I just thought there was so much injustice about it and unfairness about it. And because I trained as a child and adolescent psychotherapist as well, and a lot of the children that were referred to me, um, you know, I would get this report about this child is defiant, this child is naughty, all these kind of shaming sort of words, and my experience of those young people was completely different, and I was kinda thinking, "Why are you perceived this way?" Um, and then I did a piece of doctoral research, which meant me being in an educational setting for a number of years and, you know, seeing it firsthand, really.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. TL

      And it's interesting how a lot of the young people I met then, which was sort of 30 years ago, uh, 25 years ago, um, who in adulthood have come for a diagnosis because it was pretty clear to me at the time, but, uh, I think for a lot, particularly a lot of the sixth formers, it was a label they absolutely did not want, and it was a label that their parents didn't want, and it was a label that meant, you know, you were consigned to the classroom or the portacabin.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. TL

      You didn't belong here. And there was a lot of those kind of, you know, old cliches. Well, if you're not learning in my classroom, it's because you're not intelligent, or you're lazy, or there's something medically wrong with you, but any of those things abdicates my responsibility for helping you to learn. Um, and that's not a criticism of the teaching profession. It's not a job I could do, but I married a teacher, um, as well. So, um, when, uh, when Colin and I first met, and he said, uh, well, not long after we first met, and I told him I had ADHD, he went, "Don't be ridiculous. You can't possibly have ADHD." [laughs]

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. TL

      I was like, "Oh, really?" Um, and then bizarrely, we ended up working together. Um, but yeah, i- it's, it, it started as realizing at 29 I had ADHD-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. TL

      ... from my younger cousin when I was in Canada, um, spending time with family there, and that really stirred my interest. And then I think the more I, I heard and learned from other people about how awful their experience had been, the discrimination and the stigma and the shame and the misunderstanding, it just kind of made me more and more passionate, think, "Gotta do something about this." It was never intended to be a, um, a life mission or anything. That kind of, kind of evolved, I think.

    11. AP

      Mm. Why do you think Colin said you, you can't possibly have ADHD?

    12. TL

      'Cause I've got lots of degrees.

    13. AP

      [laughs]

    14. TL

      So therefore, if I'm clever, then therefore I can't have ADHD. 'Cause of course, that was the myth, wasn't it?

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. TL

      This was about naughty, fidgety boys who were lazy or morally undeserving because they couldn't do as they were told. Um, but you know, I have memories of being hit with the bat every week in assembly at primary school because I couldn't stop fidgeting.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. TL

      Um, and of course, now we know that one of the ways the body naturally produces more dopamine is to move. So it's interesting. I've always thought it was interesting that for adults in the workplace, being hyperactive is a real asset and seen as a strength. You've got loads of energy and, you know, whereas in a classroom, it's a disorder.

    19. AP

      Mm. I think so many people listening have probably got, like, their own Colin in their life.

    20. TL

      Yeah.

    21. AP

      Someone who said to them-

    22. TL

      Yeah

    23. AP

      ... "You can't possibly have ADHD because it's only boys," or, "You can't have ADHD because you're not physically hyperactive"-

    24. TL

      Yeah

    25. AP

      ... or, "You just need to try harder." And, and, and the sort of shame maybe and, and the fear that people anticipate when they want to open up, but they don't because they feel like there is mistruths and, and myths surrounding ADHD

    26. TL

      I think thankfully that's changing.

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. TL

      I think people aren't ashamed anymore. Parents aren't ashamed of the fact that their children are, are neurodiverse or neurodivergent, depending on whichever term you prefer to use. I'm not a fan of dichotomies that create othering, you know, neurotypical versus neurodivergent or whatever it might be. But I think, I think it's an integral part of the human condition to want to be known and understood and loved and feel like you belong. It's also, I think, how human beings come to know themselves through their interaction with other people. We're, we're a social species. The genetic imperative is relationship-driven, isn't it? And, and I remember having that conversation with Colin and saying, "Well, just because I've got lots of degrees, why would I not be ADHD?"

    29. AP

      Mm.

    30. TL

      And he just said, "Well, that's not what I remember, you know, of all the children that I've worked with." And I said, "Well, interestingly, the only people I really remember in my life are those that were kind."

  3. 8:20 – 16:42

    How to respond when someone says “Everyone has ADHD these days”

    1. AP

      exactly. I mean, what would you say to someone who, who's, who's, who is met with... If someone said to you, "ADHD isn't real," what would you, how would you respond to that?

    2. TL

      I would say that, well, to begin with, that's my lived experience, and that's how I make sense of it, although I don't like the acronym. I think the acronym Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder does not represent what that particular neurotype is. I always knew that things would never change in schools or in the NHS unless it was by popular demand. So I realized quite quickly that in the same way that, you know, the work that you do, it was about how do you win hearts and minds to things like the Umbrella Project and things like that, were all about really trying to, as Ellie Chapple says, flip that narrative away from this deficit-based notion of, you know, there's something wrong with you-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. TL

      ... um, to a more balanced and strength-based kind of perspective. Because I think in... You know, there are lots of successful people, aren't there, with ADHD. 29% of entrepreneurs apparently have got ADHD. That doesn't come as a surprise to me. Um, I've met lots of people who by earthly standards are very successful, um, who have ADHD or dyslexia, autism, dyscalculia, dyspraxia, and I always kind of saw it, well, this is just a natural expression of the wonderful diversity of human neurocognitive ability. And usually, when you find, when people say, "Oh, it doesn't exist," or, "It's a cultural construct," or more recently, over the past couple of years in, in certain newspapers, that it's, you know, it, it's, it's a trend that people are using to try and get benefits apparently [laughs] um, which is-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. TL

      ... certainly not my experience. And, and I think this is the weird thing about our culture, Alex. In school, uh, if you're dyslexic, ADHD, autistic, no matter how high your IQ, you're, you're classed as l- less intelligent. If you don't learn and pass exams the way we do things in our educational system, then there's something wrong with you, and it's called a learning disability. In the medical model, it's called a neurodevelopmental disorder. Then I think we can't tell young people throughout their lives, "You think you're stupid. You don't belong in this classroom. Um, there's something medically wrong with you," or, "You're lazy," or, "Your parents are not very good parents." And we do that to them all the way through at a very vulnerable age when they're establishing their identity and their self-concept, and then say to them at 16, "You're not disabled." That doesn't compute, um, at all. Uh, and really, I think that's come about because we disable people, you know, um, because they're different. Um, and I think I've said this before, in the UK, you know, if you were a child of color in our education system, you were still classed as educationally subnormal right up until the early '70s by virtue of your race, which is abhorrent. If you were gay, you were classed as mentally ill right up until 1994, which is abhorrent. And what is it about our culture that's often wanted to exclude people simply for being different? Um, and again, it comes back to what we were talking about before, about that, that imperative as a social species to belong to a social group, um, whether it's the family group or the classroom or the sports team or whatever it might be. People want to feel valued and belong and contribute to the communities that they're part of. And we are genetically programmed to experience anxiety and distress when we feel isolated and alone. And I've just always kind of tried to figure out, well, what is it about people that wants to exclude people for being different? Um, and then you hear, you know, all the research that's come out over the past sort of decade or more, like over fifty percent of the legal professional are autistic, over fifty percent of engineering, uh, professionals are autistic. Um, forty percent of millionaires are dyslexic, et cetera, et cetera. And you just think, well, would Einstein have been in the special needs class in school these days? Would he be one of the children that was excluded? Because seven out of every ten kids-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. TL

      ... who are excluded from our schools are still these different thinkers. And now it's well established that it's got nothing to do with low IQ, and maybe we shouldn't attach labels to people for simply being different. But at the same time, having some kind of label that doesn't carry shame and stigma or have disorder tagged on the end is, I think, is important in understanding who am I and how do I relate to the world. Um, it's an important part of developing your self-concept. So for anybody who says it doesn't exist, I would just say, "Well, you're ignorant. You don't know." We know that there are gene variants involved, so we know that there are significant genetic factors. We know there's a strong heritability factor. You're five times more likely to have ADHD if you've got a family member who's got it. Um, it does exist, but I don't ascribe to the idea of it being a disorder.

    9. AP

      If you could rename it-

    10. TL

      Mm

    11. AP

      ... um, I think Ned Hallowell, he, he, he, he suggested-

    12. TL

      That was Ned, yeah. VAST, he said.

    13. AP

      VAST.

    14. TL

      Yeah, yeah.

    15. AP

      Varied Attention Stimuli Trait.

    16. TL

      Yeah.

    17. AP

      And Vast Potential. He would like to see it renamed.

    18. TL

      Yeah. No, I've got a lot of time for Ned. Um, uh, and, and like Ned, I've been accused of having a slightly Pollyanna notion of ADHD, but I don't think that's true. I don't think... You know, I've got firsthand experience of, of ADHD. I know how difficult it can be to live with. Um, you know, I had a breakdown at 15, and that was a lot to do with having ADHD. Um, but I think what's really interesting, you know, and the last conversation I had with Ned, which was all about the whole neurodiversity movement and how it's changing public perspectives, and it's really beginning to move around the world in a very powerful way. W- And it's obviously, in the UK, things are much more, um, advanced. Um, and Ned said that neurodiversity is a triumph of lived experience over theory. Because your question about, well, does it exist or not, well, there are plenty of academics, uh, and researchers, um, you know, who, uh, in ivory towers, and again, I say that respectfully, um, we're very selective about what we measure. And if I wanna sit and find fault with somebody, then I'll do that. But sometimes it's about the imperative, and I think the imperative has often been, "This child won't be what I want them to be, so what do I have to do?"

    19. AP

      Mm.

    20. TL

      Remove them, so I'm not responsible for them. Um, you know, or, or medicate them to make them behave. Um, and I'm a, I'm in... You know, I'm a supporter of medication. I'm a supporter of whatever works for people. It's not for everybody, um, but I know the difference it's made in a lot of people's lives. I think the only problem with it is that some people think that it's a neurological El Dorado, when it's just a cognitive enhancer. Being given a prescription doesn't make your ADHD go away, um, and it certainly doesn't teach you how to live successfully with it. But I think historically, there's always been that thing about, well, you go, there's something wrong with you, there's a tablet.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. TL

      Um, and I think that has added to this myth that ADHD medication was some kind of morality pill for naughty children [laughs] which of course it isn't. So for the naysayers, I think the argument's, the argument's been won. Um, you can't just dismiss people as either they don't exist or their particular way of experiencing the world doesn't exist, because, well, our brains are only half-formed when we're born. Um, we're an incredibly adaptive species. The environment, the context we're in really matters, and ADHD can be a real asset in some contexts.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. TL

      In a classroom, it's much more of a disadvantage. But it needn't be.

  4. 16:42 – 17:54

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    1. AP

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  5. 17:54 – 27:56

    What are successful ADHDers doing right?

    1. AP

      people who are experiencing those advantages, like people with ADHD who, the doctors, the lawyers, or not necessarily stereotypical successful jobs-

    2. TL

      Mm

    3. AP

      ... but the people who are content-

    4. TL

      And happy

    5. AP

      ... and happy and not anxious every day What's the difference between those two people? W- was it one group was exposed to more criticisms when they were younger, and they have more self-esteem issues, they don't have the self-belief?

    6. TL

      It's a really, really important question to ask. Um, and the only way I can answer it is this. There are many times in my life where my ADHD has been an asset. But there are other times in my life where it has been incredibly difficult, and context matters. Um, if you have a very traumatic childhood and you've got ADHD, you're incredibly vulnerable to developing, you know, persistent anxiety, depression, things like that. But I also think that we can change the context. We're an adaptive species, and we can change the context so it's not a disability. I don't like the iden- I don't identify as disabled, but I could say there's been a couple of times in my life where I was disabled because the context I was in and the fact that I had ADHD made it so. School, university being one of them. But I can think of another time, um, you know, over 10 years ago, where I had a, a year where everything that could've gone wrong. Dad died, stepdad died, mother-in-law. It was like everything went wrong, and I think sometimes you can be perhaps more easily overwhelmed when, you know, that cumulative kind of life events that everybody goes through, um, sometimes it can knock your resilience. But I mean, I've always been fortunate in that, you know, I'm happily, very happily married, got good friends. And also because I learned at 29 years of age the kind of lifestyle choices and strategies that I needed to maintain-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. TL

      ... if I was ever gonna be able to manage ADHD successfully.

    9. AP

      And when did the, the, the focus really land on ADHD? What, what sort of was the driver for that passion?

    10. TL

      It seemed to me, with the clients that I was working with as a therapist, the kind of principle process with, with, with therapy is where we help the individual bring into awareness what's not working for them, and trusting the individual's ability then-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. TL

      ... to find the resource within themselves to, to make the changes that they need to. But what I found with some of the clients I had who, who had ADHD, what the issue was for them in terms of change was how did they develop the strategies and the resilience, and also their physical wellbeing and lifestyle choices, to enable them to actually bring about the changes that they wanted to bring in their lives in a, in a, in a successful way. It seemed to me that they knew what needed to change, and they even knew how, but somehow they couldn't quite make it happen. Um, and I realized that things like having a healthy diet and exercise and all these kind of things were really important. And when I looked on the NHS website, um, the landing page for ADHD, which didn't change, by the way, until three years ago. The landing page said, "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. People with ADHD are more likely to commit crime-

    13. AP

      [laughs]

    14. TL

      ... and become alcoholics and misuse drugs." And you just thought, "Well, that's enough to put you off, isn't it?"

    15. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    16. TL

      That's, like, not what a lot of people identify with.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. TL

      You weren't a naughty, fidgety boy at school, and you're not a, a, an alcoholic drug user who's, who's, who's committing crimes. Um, and, and again, you just think the more amazing... No wonder people are confused. And a lot of the, I think, you know, the, the controversy about TikTok, um, for example, um, where some journalists are saying all this, all these people are getting a n- you know, getting a diagnosis-

    19. AP

      Mm

    20. TL

      ... and they don't really need it, and we're over-diagnosing, which is not true. There are 3 million people with ADHD in the UK. The World Health Organization says 5.9%, um, who have ADHD. Not everybody wants a diagnosis. Not everybody needs a diagnosis. Certainly not everybody wants medication. Um, but there's only 250,000 children and adults combined who access medication as a way of managing ADHD for themselves in the UK, out of 3 million. So it's not over-diagnosed. There's eight and a half million people taking antidepressants, so depression certainly is over-diagnosed and over-medicated, but that never gets talked about.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. TL

      Um, so that, that cultural stigma and shaming still exists. Um, and I think for a lot of people, how can you take responsibility for your health, your family life, your, your economic independence, you, you know, employment, et cetera, if you don't know what it is that might be impairing you from leading a happy, healthy, and successful life? And I think the vacuum that existed around decent quality public health information was filled by social media, which democratized knowledge that had been the exclusive reserve of clinicians and, and, and researchers. So I think it's important for people to be able to know who they are without shame-

    23. AP

      Mm

    24. TL

      ... and understand that we all have vulnerabilities as well as strengths, and it's how do you play to your strengths and how do you manage your vulnerabilities.

    25. AP

      Um, w- y- I mean, you've hit the nail on the head. You know, we've seen a huge increase in, in people getting assessed and diagnosed, particularly in the last decade.

    26. TL

      Yeah.

    27. AP

      And I imagine social media is in part responsible.

    28. TL

      Yeah. I mean, when I was at the ADHD Foundation, we had nearly half a million social media followers. I think there was one year during the pandemic where we got- 4 billion media impressions. So not everything that's out there on the internet is nonsense. Um, I do get concerned about some of the things that, you know, so-called influencers post on, on social media, which may not be accurate. But then my response to that, to the Department of Health and NHS England was, well, for God's sake, put some decent quality information and make that available through public health services. You know, w- we don't wanna create dependencies. We don't wanna pathologize people. Um, we need to get rid of the disorder word, but give people the information. Um, and let's move past this idea that, you know, you've gotta think like me in order to have a place in society, because we've been there before. We've done it with race. We've done it with LGBTQ, um, community. We've done it with other minority groups. Um, this idea that, you know, you all have to be the same, you all have to think the same. Um, and we all know that there are plenty of failed businesses where the boardroom was full of people who all indulged in group thinking-

    29. AP

      Hmm

    30. TL

      ... affirmed each other by all agreeing on the same thing, and it to go bust. Um, there has to be, I think, different perspectives because if you look at the metadata, at least one in five people have one of the five naturally occurring common neurodevelopmental neurotypes, ADHD, autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia. Um, that's a lot of people. That's 20% of the population of this planet. Um, there's got to be an evolutionary reason why-

  6. 27:56 – 31:05

    The psychological effect of being called ‘too sensitive’

    1. AP

      What do you think the effect is, right, if you are told that you're crazy or too much or too sensitive for years and years and years, decades sometimes? What is, like, the effect of that on the developing mind?

    2. TL

      Heartbreaking. Heartbreaking to be told all your life that, you know, it's in your imagination. There's nothing wrong with you, or you're depressed. You've got something wrong with your brain chemistry, and here's medication that's-

    3. AP

      Hmm

    4. TL

      ... gonna put it right, which actually it doesn't. I mean, the effect size of antidepressants is, is about .3 out of a maximum of 1. The effect size for ADHD medication is .9. It does what it says on the tin, but what it does is just improve the regulation of dopamine and noradrenaline in your brain, which has significant advantages-

    5. AP

      Hmm

    6. TL

      ... in terms of your cognitive functioning. And too often I think we look at symptoms, don't we? And we're looking for cause, or we look at correlations. Um, you know, people who are very, very stressed can look like they've got ADHD, but it's not ADHD. It's, it's stress. Um, and I think for women, obviously there's been that historical gender bias. Um, we always diagnose four boys to every girl. I think it's come down a bit now. It's about three boys to every girl in schools, in school age and young people. But in adulthood, the ratio is the same. We diagnose the same number of women as we do men in the strict sense of, of, of sort of, uh, how we extrapolate the data from-

    7. AP

      Hmm

    8. TL

      ... NHS. Half of all new adult diagnoses are women.

    9. AP

      Well, it can be stressful going years and years and being told that your suspicions are false, and I, I heard, like, w- when women get diagnosed, and they have relief and grief, but also anger-

    10. TL

      Yeah

    11. AP

      ... and resentment, and quite rightly in a lot of cases. They're, they're really pissed off that they were let down for so long. Do you think that anger and that emotional response is justified in women?

    12. TL

      Yes, I do, um, because you would look back, I did, and think, "How different might my life have been had I known?" How to approach study and exams for somebody who is academically gifted but was always getting disciplined for not getting the kind of grades that I was capable of, apparently. Um, the people who have been treated with antidepressants for years and years and years when the underlying cause of the depression was really ADHD-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. TL

      ... and dopaminergic and noradrenergic dysregulation or, or just a different neurotype that, that, you know, is ... If you know that there are some things that you're gonna find difficult, then you develop strategies to manage it. Um, if we want people to take responsibility for their health and wellbeing and their economic independence, how are we gonna be able to do that unless we help them understand themselves-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. TL

      ... and not pathologize them simply because they're different.

    17. AP

      Tony,

  7. 31:05 – 36:12

    What a "purgatory period" of having no diagnosis does to a Neurodiverse brain

    1. AP

      I've heard you mention in the past something called a purgatory period-

    2. TL

      Mm

    3. AP

      ... in, in response to a, a phase you might go through when you are misdiagnosed or, or pre-diagnosis.

    4. TL

      Mm.

    5. AP

      What, what is a purgatory period?

    6. TL

      It's ... I think it's different things for different people, Alex. I think there is that moment of epiphany where you think, "Oh, I wonder if I've got ADHD. Is that what it is?" And then you find it incredibly difficult to speak to anybody who's got any knowledge of it, 'cause most GPs don't. I mean, they know a bit more now. Um, most general psychiatrists didn't know anything about ADHD in the UK until a few years ago because it wasn't even on the psychiatry curriculum. Can you believe that?

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. TL

      And I think the frustration and the sense of isolation that comes with, "Well, why didn't anybody tell me?" Or, "Why didn't anybody have that information available so that I could've learned for myself?" Or why wasn't the information that was available balanced and constructive rather than, "Oh, well, you're more likely to be a, a criminal or an alcoholic," [laughs] eh, or, "You're a nor- ... You're a nor- ... You know, you're a delinquent child," or whatever, because you know that there are some things that you probably would've done differently and perhaps could've done better and maybe some trapdoors that you could've avoided had you known. Um, and addiction is a particular, I think, a particular one for many people. And you can ... I mean, for me, it was caffeine, 20 cups of tea a day with sugar in them. Um, started smoking when I was sort of 14. I didn't know that those things were psychostimulants. I didn't realize that, 'cause I used to cycle for miles, um, and then I did the whole gym thing for years, didn't realize that actually what I was doing was trying to generate more dopamine so that I felt healthy and, and, and sort of well-regulated and in control of my own life. And for people who've developed addictions to alcohol, which is not something I ever touch, it does nothing for me at all, just makes me fall asleep, um, but for people who've developed addictions to, to, to, um, drugs, I just think, you know, there but for the grace of God. I think it's instinctive in all of us, isn't it? We would want ... If we were in a state of constant anxiety or extreme distress, you want some relief from that. And the people around you, no matter how much they love you, don't always necessarily know what to do-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. TL

      ... in order to help you in that distressed state. Um, and people develop all kinds of addictions. Some of them can be quite healthy, um, but some of them not so much. And I think, you know, we, we've seen this. I've worked with a lot of people who, uh, a- are in sort of television and the music industry, um, who've developed addictions and then found out they had ADHD and said, "If I'd have known, I would never have touched that," you know? Um, you know, and, and I've heard it joked a few times about, you know, "Oh, well, all my friends used to get high when they did a line of coke at university."

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. TL

      "It just used to make me calm. That's why."

    13. AP

      That might be one of the telltale signs.

    14. TL

      Yeah. [laughs]

    15. AP

      Do you think ... What's the difference, then? In, in someone who s- experiences some of these telltale signs, but they feel like they've got it under control, or they, they suspect that they might have ADHD, but-

    16. TL

      Mm

    17. AP

      ... it's not at crisis point.

    18. TL

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AP

      What, what's the tipping point between someone who's in that camp compared to someone who is in crisis point, they really are desperate, they need help, and they, they, they desperately do need to go get assessment? Is there, like, a tipping point that might tip someone from the first camp into that second one?

    20. TL

      I think ... I mean, I, I think that's down to the individual themselves. I think quite often the individual think, "Well, I'm in crisis because I'm drinking too much, and therefore it's a moral weakness, and, and it's my own fault. Well, I've been told all me life I was no good, and I'd never come to anything and never did anything at school, so I never got any qualific..." I think we can-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. TL

      ... develop a self-concept whereby, um, it can become very self-defeating and that we have no self-belief or no self-efficacy or confidence that w- we can have a decent quality life, uh, and, and, you know, and be happy and healthy because we've been conditioned into believing that we're not, that there's something wrong with us, or even worse, that we're not deserving-

    23. AP

      Mm

    24. TL

      ... happiness or certainly not deserving of public services, for example.

  8. 36:12 – 44:01

    Masking

    1. AP

      Can the conversation of masking come in here? And I mean if you're- Undiagnosed, and as a consequence of not understanding that you might be ADHD, the mask becomes so thick through years and years and years of it getting thicker, you shape-shifting your personality-

    2. TL

      Mm

    3. AP

      ... kind of adjusting who you are in order to fit in time and time again. And because of that mask is so thick, you do put yourself in positions that aren't a good fit for you, so you take on a new job that might be a, not a good fit, or you get into a new relationship that might not be a, a new fit. And that cycle of starting things and abandoning them because they're not a good fit-

    4. TL

      Mm

    5. AP

      ... ends up taking such a toll on your mental health. You genuinely look back and see this evidence of abandoned relationships, abandoned projects, and that actually makes you feel so terrible, and it's that that tips you over into thinking, "What the hell is going on? There must be something wrong with me." And that takes you into assessment?

    6. TL

      Because you're making the same mistakes over and over again, aren't you? Um-

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. TL

      But I come back to this idea about we get... You know, we understand who we are as human beings in relation to other people, and, and we thrive in relationships and social groups. So for me, I would say that having really good friends and being really happily married to Colin has been one of the most significant factors for me in terms of, um, being well and being happy. Um, but I, I think the tipping point is, is unique to the individual, and I think it's about somebody saying to you, "Have you thought maybe it's this?" Or... And if you're in distress and you're struggling and you're going to the so-called experts, whether it's the teacher at the school about your child, who, it turns out, knows nothing about ADHD-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. TL

      ... because they're trained to teach a curriculum and assess you for achieving in that curriculum. They're not taught a great deal about children or developmental psychology or child and adolescent mental health. The element of teacher training for that is just a couple of days-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. TL

      ... which I think is a great disservice to new teachers. Um, and, and it's no wonder half of them leave within five years, because you're not being trained to work with children, and first and foremost, you're a childcare professional. And what, you know, what do we fi... You know, what, what is education for? Um, I've always believed that the focus on, on, on education, for example, is... Well, it's all about intellectual development. But, you know, the frontal lobe of our brain where we have executive functioning skills, that part only appeared about 40,000, 50,000 years ago, and there was no way it could develop without the limbic system and everything else coming first. Um, and I think if we don't address the more fundamental needs of human beings, which is to feel safe, to feel loved, protected, to belong, and, you know, and have the opportunity to thrive in a social group and learn-

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. TL

      Um, you know, I've met plenty of people with PhDs who couldn't boil an egg and I wouldn't entrust with the care of a rodent.

    15. AP

      [laughs]

    16. TL

      So it's not... You know, intellectual intelligence is only-

    17. AP

      Mm

    18. TL

      ... one type of intelligence and ability. And I think for a lot of people, that tipping point is, well, what defines me as being successful or not? Because people who are very wealthy and have very good jobs can still have nervous breakdowns and failed relationships.

    19. AP

      Mm.

    20. TL

      And, um, so what, what's the, what's the remedy for that?

    21. AP

      Could the tipping point be, going back to, you said, a basic human need, I think most people appreciate stability and consistency.

    22. TL

      Mm.

    23. AP

      And when you can go through a period of your life that knocks you off that course, i.e., a woman going through the menopause or-

    24. TL

      Mm. Yeah

    25. AP

      ... a couple having a child, or even something like you getting fired, or y- you go through a grieving process-

    26. TL

      Mm

    27. AP

      ... something so significant that the scaffolding that you have, maybe consciously or subconsciously around you, starts to wobble, and in some cases, it falls down.

    28. TL

      Yeah.

    29. AP

      And it's that event that knocks you off your stable path. That can be the tipping point that causes you to go into full crisis mode.

    30. TL

      Mm. Yeah. Or, or cumulative disadvantage, cumulative traumatic events. You know, b- we, none of us are immune from life events, aren't we? You know, we all experience bereavement. Um, you know, people can be made redundant through no fault of their own. There are just things that happen in life that affect us, and the degree of resilience that we have is often determined by both a combination of the support structures that we have in place, but also what we know and understand about ourselves and our ability to care for ourselves, and I think self-care is not something that we teach young people or adults enough about. I'd like to come back to that question, though, about masking. Um, we, we, as- we naturally try and assimilate, don't we, in order to belong?

  9. 44:01 – 50:55

    The significance of RSD in the Neurodiverse community

    1. AP

      uh, w- where does RSD tie into that? Because s- many of us in the community, we are, because of experiences, of being told that we're different and having been exposed to-

    2. TL

      Mm

    3. AP

      ... so many more corrective messages, we're almost quite fearful as an adult to offend or to-

    4. TL

      Mm

    5. AP

      ... say no.

    6. TL

      Yes. Yeah.

    7. AP

      Or to stand up for ourselves. And as a consequence of that-

    8. TL

      Mm

    9. AP

      ... we, we sh- we shape-shift, and we adjust in order to-

    10. TL

      Mm

    11. AP

      ... please the person that we're with so we don't offend them, so we don't open ourselves up to a criticism.

    12. TL

      Yeah.

    13. AP

      From your experience, so where does the conversation of RSD come into the, the neurodiverse community?

    14. TL

      There are many people who, who, who say that they are particularly sensitive. Um, I don't think that's a weakness, to be quite honest. I think, again, it's a bit of a throwback to our sort of British stiff upper lip kind-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. TL

      ... of idea, isn't it? That, you know, you don't... Um, I don't think there's anything, there's anything wrong with being sensitive, but I do understand that for many people, their quality of life and sometimes their relationships are impacted by the fact that sometimes they'll take offense when none necessarily is intended. Um, but then I think the responsibility for how we're understood also rests with the communicator, doesn't it? I mean, one of the things you said to me was, you know, "What do you want to get from this podcast?" And I said, "The only thing I can hope to get is that I've been able to answer your questions in a way that other people could make sense of and understand." Being understood, absolutely integral again, isn't it-

    17. AP

      Hmm

    18. TL

      ... to, to how we function as a social species.

    19. AP

      With RSD, just, just going back, do you think it's possible for somebody to be so fearful and s- trying to avoid a confrontation that they'll, they'll put things in place that are detrimental to their own wellbeing?

    20. TL

      Hmm.

    21. AP

      I.e., like, they'll, they'll-

    22. TL

      Hmm

    23. AP

      ... people please, they won't know how to put boundaries in place. They'll put everyone else's needs ahead of their own, because they don't wanna o- o- offend anyone or annoy anyone, and, and that-

    24. TL

      Yeah

    25. AP

      ... puts someone else's-

    26. TL

      Yeah. Or, or the, the, the frustration will build up and build up, and then they'll, they'll lose it and lose their temper and, and, you know, I mean, there's a, there's, there's a great adage isn't there about learning to apply the brakes rather than crash through the roadblocks.

    27. AP

      [laughs]

    28. TL

      Um, but I do, I do, I do think there is some substance, even though RSD is not included in the diagnostic criteria, um, it's something that a lot of clinicians will kinda think about when, and ask people about, when they're doing an assessment.

    29. AP

      Hmm.

    30. TL

      There does seem to be this, this acute sensitivity that comes with ADHD. Um, and whether that's just, as you say, because of having a brain that processes the world we live in in a different way to the majority, then, um, you know, whether that, that's the reason, or, or whether it is, it is just something about our particular neurology that, that makes that possible. But then I also think, I look at the number of musicians and artists that I know who have ADHD, and the extraordinary sensitivity in their work is a real asset. So again, it's that, you know, hyperactivity can be a real asset. Um, obviously not in a classroom, [laughs] 'cause it's an inconvenience to everybody else. Um, being impulsive, you know, being quick-witted, um, being really good at multitasking, um. Being impulsive is great if you're a professional athlete on a tennis court-

  10. 50:55 – 53:21

    The ADHD item segment

    1. AP

      I want to reveal your ADHD item-

    2. TL

      Yeah

    3. AP

      ... which has been patiently waiting underneath that cloth this whole time. [laughs]

    4. TL

      [laughs] Yes.

    5. AP

      Uh, I ask all my guests to bring in an item that most represents ADHD for them.

    6. TL

      Yeah.

    7. AP

      I'm gonna reveal yours now.

    8. TL

      The umbrella.

    9. AP

      That's an umbrella.

    10. TL

      Yeah.

    11. AP

      I'm gonna pass the umbrella to you, Tony. And why does an umbrella represent ADHD?

    12. TL

      Because, um, working with a group of young people, God, now nearly 10 years ago, um, and they were looking for a name to call themselves, and they said to me, "We're gonna call ourselves The Alphabet Kids." And I said, "Why?" They said, "Because we've got loads of letters after our name, like you." And I said, "Such as?" And they went, "Ooh, ADHD, LD, ASD." And I said, "Look, forget the Ds." Those, those acronyms, they are really, um, they all fall under this umbrella of something that we call neurodevelopmental conditions-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. TL

      ... or neurodiversity. And so they call themselves The Umbrella Gang. And then they produced educational comics for the children called The Umbrella Gang, and they, um, were involved in bringing something called The Umbrella Project to life, which was public displays of umbrellas in city centers-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. TL

      ... and in schools and offices, and all these different colors represent what they said were the different colors of their minds. And, um, so yeah, the umbrella's always been kind of quite a powerful symbol, and actually being adopted by a lot of, a lot of other organizations now as a kind of, as a symbol of, of, of neurodiversity. So for me, that's kinda, that, that's quite a good thing, um, from a remarkable group of young people who've actually gone on to achieve really quite extraordinary things.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. TL

      But these were all kids who were in the special needs class and excluded from school, and now they're, like, on scholarships at Stanford University or top 500, top 100 world professional golfers and things like that.

    19. AP

      Yeah. Gosh.

    20. TL

      So, um, you often don't hear about those success stories. And the umbrella is, is kinda, you know... I often get photographs sent to me with people when they've got the umbrella, and I know that they're sending me a message-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. TL

      ... because they're holding the umbrella, so yeah.

    23. AP

      Yeah. What a brilliant visual as well to symbolize community.

    24. TL

      Yeah.

    25. AP

      You know, it's so, so important, isn't it, to, to feel part of a community. So, um, thank you for the explanation.

    26. TL

      Yeah.

    27. AP

      Just

  11. 53:21 – 57:01

    The ADHD agony aunt segment

    1. AP

      penultimately, Tony, I want to do the ADHD agony aunt section, which is-

    2. TL

      Oh, right. Yeah. I heard about this

    3. AP

      ... which is called The Washing Machine of Woes.

    4. TL

      [laughs]

    5. AP

      Because, because my item is called, my item is a washing machine.

    6. TL

      Right. Okay.

    7. AP

      And I always leave my laundry in the machine. Do you do that?

    8. TL

      Uh, yeah.

    9. AP

      You're guilty of that too? Oh, good. Again.

    10. TL

      Then I learned that it starts to smell, so you have to wash it again.

    11. AP

      Yeah, yeah.

    12. TL

      So don't do it as much anymore.

    13. AP

      Smell of damp. Yeah.

    14. TL

      Oh, I've got dirty smoothies.

    15. AP

      Although I've got better. I've started using the Tiimo app-

    16. TL

      [laughs]

    17. AP

      ... uh, which does remind me, but it's still not perfect, but getting there.

    18. TL

      Well-

    19. AP

      This week, Tony, in The Washing Machine of Woes, someone's written in and asked, "I feel drowned at work, and that I have to work three times as hard to get anything done, but what's worse is my colleagues don't even think ADHD is a real thing. What can I do to help communicate my struggles so I don't get fired?"

    20. TL

      Oh, that's a big question. Um, first of all, I would say wear your ADHD with pride. There's nothing wrong with you. Um, sometimes we've helped people in the workplace say, "Well, do you know, why don't you have some kind of event?" You know, a small Umbrella Project, for example, where you have 25 umbrellas in the office, and everybody says, "Well, what's this for?" And just get people talking about-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. TL

      ... what is neurodiversity Why it's a good thing that we don't all think the same way. Um, and that why it's a good thing that we should celebrate difference, um, as something that really adds, you know, because all the research evidence proves that the more diverse the workforce, the more profitable it is.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. TL

      Um, and I would maybe say to that individual, I would talk to somebody you really trust and explore maybe some of your own issues around self-worth and how you think of yourself because of your ADHD. Um, I don't ascribe to the idea that ADHD is a gift. That's taking it too far. But I think it can be an asset in some aspects of an individual's life, and we're all different.

    25. AP

      Mm.

    26. TL

      Uh, and I mentioned before, you know, we know ADHD is genetic in origin, unless you've had a brain injury, um, caused by epilepsy or, or trauma. Um, we know that by and large, ADHD is genetic, but, but that's only part of the story. You know, our brains aren't even anywhere near fully developed when we're born, and who we are and who we become is the product of our life experiences.

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. TL

      And for that individual, I would say, um, try and help your colleagues understand neurodiversity from a positive strength-based perspective, and maybe point out to them that the world is a better place because of Leonardo da Vinci and Albert Einstein, and, uh, the guy who founded IKEA, Ingvar, um, I can't remember his surname. Um, and a whole range of people who, you know, in public life and, and historically even in the history curriculum in schools, um, Walt Disney, you know-

    29. AP

      Mm

    30. TL

      ... um, Henry Ford, all these people who've done amazing things and contributed to our culture and, and, you know, and, and people are often shocked then to realize that, well, that challenges the, the stereotype and the misrepresentation, that for all of us, our lives are better.

  12. 57:01 – 59:04

    A letter from the previous guest

    1. TL

      Yeah, that's-

    2. AP

      So fascinating, Tony. Just, just finally, I want to do the f- the final section, which is I'm gonna deliver a letter from the previous guest.

    3. TL

      Right, okay.

    4. AP

      That they wrote three rules to live by, and they wrote it on an envelope. They posted it in that post office, and I'm going to deliver it, and I'm gonna deliver it, Tony, to you, and if you could kindly read the last guest's three rules to live by.

    5. TL

      Slow down. Take a moment to breathe and be present even in the middle of your busy life. Wow. Well, I... That really resonates with me because I've just worked sort of stupid hours for years and exhausted myself and, and ignored where it's kind of impacted on me health. Revisit your self-awareness through journaling, learning, coaching, conversation, and self-reflection. I've, I've done that all my life, actually, but it's, it's one of the best pieces of guidance you could offer anyone. Um, and become aware of your thoughts as well as your struggles, your strengths as well as your struggles to overcome any ADHD shame. Yeah, that's-

    6. AP

      Three powerful ones there, yeah

    7. TL

      ... three really powerful. So whoever that was-

    8. AP

      Yeah

    9. TL

      ... thank you very much. I'm sure they'll resonate with-

    10. AP

      Yeah

    11. TL

      ... with everybody who's watching.

    12. AP

      I laughed, so I laughed when you said the first one 'cause you said slow down. Uh, y- you reminded me of Paolo Nutini when he starts-

    13. TL

      [laughs]

    14. AP

      ... up the song Slow Down. [laughs]

    15. TL

      But it's been, you know, it's, it's a particular, it's a partic- And the other thing, of course, for me, Alex, is that we've got to the age of 63, and my mind is still hyperactive, but my body is just not capable of doing-

    16. AP

      Mm

    17. TL

      ... um, what it used to.

    18. AP

      It's, it's such a privilege, Tony. Like I said at the beginning, you know, I'm, I was amazed that we haven't crossed paths before, but-

    19. TL

      Yeah, yeah

    20. AP

      ... very aware of your amazing work.

    21. TL

      And thank you. Thank you very much for asking me. It's been a pleasure.

    22. AP

      Thank you, Tony.

    23. TL

      Cheers. [upbeat music]

    24. AP

      Sorry

  13. 59:04 – 1:00:23

    Ned Hallowell Brain Health advert

    1. AP

      to interrupt with an ad read. I know it can ignite rage, but a brief word from our sponsor. You'll hate slow talkers like I do, so I'll keep this snappy. If you've ever wanted the specialized support of a highly qualified, world-renowned, Harvard-educated ADHD psychiatrist right there with you at all times, now's your chance. The one and only Dr. Ned Hallowell, ADHD specialist and bestselling author, has worked with some of the brightest minds in the ADHD world to develop an app that makes his knowledge on how to manage ADHD and stress accessible to all. Features include customized and tailored daily exercises to stimulate the cerebellum and proven to help manage those trickier aspects of ADHD, four sessions of virtual ADHD individual coaching tailored to your needs, a self EMDR program, a cutting-edge treatment for ADHD to help target that unwanted stress and anxiety with two personal coaching sessions. Lastly, if you've not officially been diagnosed yet, the app offers several reliable self-administered diagnostic assessments of ADHD that can help you see if you actually have ADHD. And the app includes daily coaching tips written by Dr. Ned Hallowell for how to best utilize each day on the program. All of this and more is just a thumb swipe away with the Hallowell Brain Health app. The app is available for the tablet or smartphone. 10% off if you use the link in the bio. Back to the episode.

Episode duration: 1:00:24

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