Kate Spicer Dissects Late ADHD Diagnosis

Kate Spicer 0:00 My boyfriend, he does not want me to have ADHD

Alex Partridge 0:03 Why?

Kate Spicer 0:05 Oh my God. I mean- Kate Spicer, lifestyle journalist, Sunday Times journalist Who received her ADHD diagnosis just two months ago So my world kind of really fell apart when I went to university, and I discovered recreational drug use. And interestingly, in the, in the last sort of year or two, I was getting fascinated by dopamine as a, as a molecule. But the more I read about it, the more I was like, "Oh my God, this explains 25 years of drug and alcohol abuse, and bad relationships, and weird shopping decisions, and spending money when I didn't have it." I think there was a very strong, very negative internal narrative that I had to deal with all the time.

Alex Partridge 0:41 What does that sound like?

Kate Spicer 0:42 You know what ADHD chatter is? Well, imagine all that ADHD chatter is, uh, attacking you, and I've dealt with this all my adult life.

Alex Partridge 0:52 [instrumental music] This episode is dedicated to anyone who's ever been labeled as too sensitive. I know you've probably heard this a million times on other podcasts, but following or subscribing really helps the show, and the more followers we get, the more likely it is that I'm able to book new, exciting, and insightful guests for the show. So if you subscribe, I will continue to keep to my word and promise to never let this podcast be sponsored by Huel.

Alex Partridge 1:21 I was reading one of your articles, and I read that you had a very amusing nickname for your brain.

Kate Spicer 1:28 Yeah, I wrote a piece for my Substack about, um, ADHD, and I didn't want to use the words ADHD in the title because I didn't want it to show up on the SEO.

Alex Partridge 1:39 Search engine optimization

Kate Spicer 1:39 You understand, you understand internet stuff.

Alex Partridge 1:41 Yeah.

Kate Spicer 1:41 Yeah. I wanted to keep it secret. And so I think I called it My, My Relationship with Brian, Broken Brian. Was it something like that?

Alex Partridge 1:50 Why did you want to keep it secret?

Kate Spicer 1:53 Because at that stage, I didn't think I wanted to write about it. I didn't think there was anything to be gained from being identified as someone with ADHD. So I was sort of ex- I had been exploring it through my Substack, which I keep very religiously behind a paywall and strictly for insiders only, uh, though only the very keenest kind of followers of my writing. And, um, I'd written a, a sequence of, you know, what to do with my broken brain and, uh, how to fix a scattered mind, but I never really used the word ADHD because I didn't want anyone to Google me and ever see that word. Um, but then I wrote a sort of test piece that I ended up, um, appearing in the Sunday T- in The Times. I wrote a test piece about my relationship with ADHD, and I put a poll at the top saying, "Do you think I should go public with this?" And, uh, it turned out 66% said yes, and the rest said definitely not, but I went public anyway. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 2:53 And now you're loudly and proudly talking about ADHD on a podcast.

Kate Spicer 2:56 Uh, actually, you are the only... the first time I've spoken about it. I've consciously not sort of jumped two feet first into the whole I'm, I'm identify as ADHD. I, I barely identify as ADHD yet anyway, so this is a bit of an experiment for me. If I break down and sob in the middle of it-

Alex Partridge 3:13 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 3:14 ... and you have to get an ambulance to take me away [laughs]

Alex Partridge 3:16 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 3:16 It'll be all your fault. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 3:18 So apart from that poll where you were encouraged by a 66% majority to publicly talk about it, has there been any other changes in your way of thinking that has made you more comfortable in speaking about it?

Kate Spicer 3:30 Um, I'm not more comfortable speaking about it. I think you approached me, and, um, I felt like you were doing something good here. You'd... I looked at what you're doing, you're clearly speaking to all sorts of different people. Um, and I feel like your audience has ADHD, so they're gonna be sympathetic. Uh, in terms of, you know, I write for newspapers, I write for the broadsheets and some tabloids, and I, um, I feel like... And I, and I know from looking at comments on the piece I wrote in The Times that the broad, broader society is not sympathetic towards people with ADHD. They don't even think it exists, and I think the fact that there's just an unprecedented body of scientific study into it isn't enough to convince even medical people. And the guy who gave me my eventual diagnosis and is now giving me cognitive analytical therapy to help me cope with transitioning into becoming someone with ADHD rather than just being the mess I was before, uh, said that even within psychiatry, it's still, um... His exact words were, um, "greeted with a bit of an eye roll." So, you know, we're not... I- it- it's a very complicated landscape out there for us, and I think to wear it proudly, you need to be, uh, successful, like, like you are. You can do what the hell you want. You notice I very carefully didn't use the F word there.

Alex Partridge 4:57 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 4:57 I'm being all, being [laughs] I was being all kind of neuronormal. But, um, I think to actually go- come out proudly and say you have ADHD, you have to have all your ducks lined up and be, you know, be... You, you've gotta kind of have your shit together.

Alex Partridge 5:14 Has it been accepted within your family?

Kate Spicer 5:17 Uh, well, um, I'm gonna be 55 on Saturday. I can do what I want. Um, so I get myself an ADHD diagnosis, and it's sort of seen as, like, Kate's latest, um, mad, um, hyperfocus. Um, they wouldn't call it a hyperfocus. They'd just say, "Oh, that's Kate's latest thing. She's got ADHD." I'm pretty sure that's what they're saying. Um, but I'll r- I'll run you through my family. My, my dad is a retired surgeon, and I overheard him talking to one of my siblings about another relation of ours who's suspected to have ADHD and him saying, "It's just people who've always felt different and need- ... some sort of diagnosis to make them f- uh, make themselves feel better about themselves. And that, I mean, that was very hurtful to overhear that. But he, th- you know, he didn't say that to me. Um, but I think h- you know, he, like many, many people, thinks it's the pathologization of personality, and I've had my own thoughts about that, but we'll come to that later. So b- both my mom and my dad and my boyfriend were invited to fill out the ADHD informant report, which is what people close to you... I imagine if you're a child, it'd be your parents, or, um, it's... But it's just people close to you, flatmates, people who can observe you, and they fill out forms to kind of, I suppose, support your own, uh, ADHD assessment. So my dad filled it out and sent it, and, um, my shrink said the, um, the form was very sparsely filled, but that actually d- was consistent with me having ADHD. My mom said to me, "Oh, you fill it out, darling. I want you to get the result you want." And I was like, "Mom, I don't want to have ADHD. I want to get a medical diagnosis." It's slightly... It's not a consumer thing, although ADHD is now being presented as a c- consumer decision, let's be honest. You know, the way the media talks about it is like, oh, people are just going off and buying themselves these 15-minute ADHD diagnoses so they can get stimulant drugs and... I mean, uh, doctors have said that to me. So I can see where my mom got this idea from. "Oh, darling, I'll just fill the report out." So, so I was like, "Okay, Mom, don't bother filling it out. It's fine." My boyfriend, uh, opened it and just went, "Oh, I just... You don't have ADHD." I was like, "So you're, you're not gonna fill the form out?" "You don't have it." He does not want me to have ADHD.

Alex Partridge 7:55 Why?

Kate Spicer 7:57 Oh my God. I mean, maybe he has ADHD himself, 'cause there's studies that show that ADHD people sort of gravitate towards each other. Or maybe, uh, he has a, a lot of prejudice. Like, you know, we have friends with ADHD, and they are, some of them com- you know, quite a lot, quite, um, you know, big people, let's say. Um, I don't know. It's, it's been a very isolating experience having ADHD, because I don't know who to talk to about it, because the only people that really get it are my friends with ADHD. So it's like we're just a bunch of lunatics all chatting to each other in a big circle-

Alex Partridge 8:41 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 8:41 ... kind of big s- circle jerk of madness. Um, and I mean that in the, the very kindest and most affectionate way. It's the... You know, so I hadn't seen my friend who went on and on and on about the fact that I had ADHD. That story that you read, that I'd written, it kind of starts with her just constantly saying, "You've got ADHD, you've got ADHD." And this was about a year ago, and I, and I... It was unbearable, and I was like, "It's incredibly rude what you're saying. You've got to stop saying it, and you've got to stop saying it in front of other people." She's like, "But you've got ADHD." Then I'd be talking about something. She'd go, "Well, that would be the ADHD."

Alex Partridge 9:19 Do you think you've got a radar for spotting AD- ADHD in others?

Kate Spicer 9:25 I think... What was really interesting about, as I got my diagnosis, I was... My aunt was in hospital, we thought dying, um, and I, so I was spending quite a lot of time with my cousins. And I'd been speaking to my uncle about it, and my mom, and they were sort of like, "Ugh, whatever. It's the pathologization of personality and..." And talking about ADHD traits, and they were like, "Oh, that's just everybody." But then I started talking to my cousins, who are a bit younger than me, and my cousin Christopher was like, "Oh God, I've definitely got it. My wife's always talking about how I've got it." And he then he s- he runs a tour company. He said, "Well, two of my best tour guides have got it, without doubt." Um, and I think they're, they're actually medicated. Uh, and then we started talking about various aunts and uncles, and we were like, "Yeah, he's probably got it." So I think what tends to happen when you get an ADHD diagnosis and you start to understand a bit more about it is you start to see it around you, 'cause it has an incredibly strong genetic component, as they say. So I don't think I am confident enough. I mean, I'm speaking to you only two months after I got a diagnosis, only a month, uh, since I got medicated. Not even a month since I got medicated.

Alex Partridge 10:40 Thank you, by the way, for coming on.

Kate Spicer 10:41 Yeah. Well, my Elvanse has run out, so you'll probably just get this declining-

Alex Partridge 10:45 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 10:45 ... and then I'll just fall asleep. [laughs] Um, but it's, it's just such early days for me, but yeah, of course I can see it. I mean, I wonder if my mom has ADHD. I really do. I do, I really do wonder, and I think there's so many strands to it in terms of the people you choose to be, to partner with, problems you have with relationships, problems you have with work, problems you have... Emotional dysregulation is enormous. And the guy that I work with, I don't know, I don't know if he's a shrink or whatever, but he's my mental health professional who is dealing with my ADHD. He says the one thing everyone with ADHD has is emotional dysregulation. And I can see that in my mom, you know. But, I mean, you can't talk to 80-year-olds about it. They're not very open to being told that they're, you know, anything. My... I've got a sister who I think probably has ADHD. I've been trying to talk to her, 'cause, I mean, our own generation are receptive, but the generations above are not.

Alex Partridge 11:56 Your parents clearly, by the sounds of it, incredibly intelligent people, being a... Ha- have they done the research? Have they read up and had their minds changed by doing some research?

Kate Spicer 12:09 I think that, as it's just you and me talking here, nobody's listening, I don't know about my dad. I'm seeing him this week. Let's see. I didn't... I felt a lot of hostility towards those four letters last time I was with him. And I said... I've, I've emailed him and said things like, "You know, I know you don't feel completely convinced by the whole ADHD story, but could you do the, you know, the inf- the rather menacing sounding informant report and stuff like that?" And, you know, he did it. Uh, but yeah, I don't, I don't feel like there's a lot of sympathy for it around me.

Alex Partridge 12:43 You mentioned earlier, pre-diagnosis, your life was a mess.

Kate Spicer 12:46 Oh, my life's still a mess now. You know, I haven't had this sort of mad Damascene stimulant moment where I start taking pharmaceuticals and everything comes together. But my life was a quite a coherent mess. I was, um... You know, I'm a not, a not unsuccessful journalist. I mean, it does... I think a lot of people go, when they get an ADHD diagnosis, they do kind of have a grief at the career they might have had if they'd been diagnosed younger and understood how to manage themselves. I, I definitely feel like that. I think I missed a lot of opportunities, but I think I've done, I've done well enough.

Alex Partridge 13:27 What opportunities do you think you've missed?

Kate Spicer 13:30 I think I lacked confidence to do and pursue certain things, and I think that lack of confidence was actually about ADHD, whereas before I just thought it was because I was not a strong person. But I realize now that actually having ADHD and getting where I have does make me quite strong because I've kind of managed to sort of tooth and claw fight my way through all that kind of procrastination and madness and stimulant seeking and... Um, but I think there was a very strong, very negative internal narrative that I had to deal with all the time, and I think that held me back.

Alex Partridge 14:10 What does that sound like, the internal negative narrative?

Kate Spicer 14:13 You know what ADHD chatter is? Well, imagine all that ADHD chatter is, uh, attacking you. And that's a lot.

Alex Partridge 14:23 Mm.

Kate Spicer 14:24 Can you imagine that? All those different voices in your head, all the different strands coming in. And the... You know when you wake up in the morning, and there's... It's... Have you seen the film Hellraiser?

Alex Partridge 14:33 Yes.

Kate Spicer 14:33 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 14:33 Those spikes coming out of the head, yeah.

Kate Spicer 14:34 Yeah. That's, that's what internal chatter is like when it's... You know, you're being pulled apart by... Your, y- your centered, calm, focused, confident core is being pulled apart by, like, phenomenal endless streams of negative self-talk. And with a lot of lifestyle management, good sleep, not drinking, certainly not taking drugs, um, eating well, exercising, I think you can stay on top of that stuff, but the minute you fall apart a little bit and seek external stimulants, you're making yourself very, very vulnerable. Um, so you know, I'm, I'm in my mid-50s, and I've dealt with this all my adult life. So the fact that I've got as far as I have is, um, probably should be applauded. I should probably find a reason to applaud myself rather than a reason to berate myself.

Alex Partridge 15:37 Going back in time, that constant internal chatter, that must have led to some dark places.

Kate Spicer 15:41 I think that what happens with ADHD a lot, and there is certainly studies to bear this out, is that if you have, um, a trauma in your childhood, uh, and be- I'm not a trauma narrative person at all, but some... You know, I did have a complicated childhood. My, my parents had a very nasty divorce, and there were some, you know, tricky things to navigate, and I think the interaction of that with, with ADHD was quite, was what took me to dark places. I think had my ADHD been managed from quite a loving place, I probably would have dealt with it in a very different way. Um, but I did kind of arrive in the world, which is when... I think ADHD often becomes very app- apparent- apparently, people who are reasonably intelligent can mask really well at school, and they can do very well at school, but it's when you go out into the world and you have to look after yourself that everything falls apart 'cause you can't look after yourself. You just don't have the, that sort of executive functioning toolkit. So my world kind of really fell apart when I went to university, and I was just... Yeah, I was this cha- chaotic person, and I discovered recreational drug use, and, yeah, it was not a great foundation to start adult life.

Alex Partridge 17:01 That world of self-medicating through recreational drugs, how deep into that hole did you go?

Kate Spicer 17:07 I mean, [sighs] I think that getting an ADHD diagnosis made me realize that I was constantly trying to c- correct my brain chemistry. So I'd long explored my relationship with recreational drugs 'cause the minute they became a problem... Because when I came of age in the rave years when taking drugs was not a problem, it was kind of changing Britain for the pos- for the better. You know, football terraces weren't violent anymore. People were coming together. There was incredible... In groups of people that were incredibly diverse. I mean, in some ways, the kind of ecstasy generation were just... It was just an incredible time. But then you, y- you either grew up and grew out of that, or like me, you just kind of proceeded more into kind of habitual hard drug use, which, it was never... I mean, look, the thing about drug use is, like, how long is a piece of string, you know? Do, do you have to be in the gutters shooting up, you know, fentanyl in order to have a drug problem, or do you have to not be able to stop doing it at the weekends? Um, but as I realized I didn't have any control over my appetite for drugs- I couldn't, I couldn't just say, "Oh, I'm not gonna do it this weekend." Uh, I was like, "My God, I've got to get to the bottom of this." You know, rehab was for rich people. I was desperate. I was like, "How do I stop this?" So I did lots and lots of reading. I tried super, super hard to be a clean and serene person, but, um, you know, and I just thought I was a bad person. I'm a bad person. I was ... I stimulate, I stimulate, I stimulate, I stimulate. And, um, uh, they call it stimming, don't they? Which sounds like something really dirty from porn, so I don't like using the word stim. It sounds like something, you know, like teabagging or wolfbagging or-

Alex Partridge 18:54 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 18:55 ... whatever all those things are. [laughs] Um, so I just find stimming a bit of an odd word, but I, I do understand what it explains. It's like constantly trying to raise your dopamine levels. And interestingly, in the, in the last sort of year or two, I was getting fascinated by dopamine as a, as a molecule, just 'cause it's quite trendy in wellness. But the more I read about it, the more I was like, "Oh my God, this explains 25 years of just drug and alcohol abuse, and, um, and bad relationships, and weird shopping decisions, and, you know, like spending money when I didn't have it, and eating weirdly." I mean, there's a very high incidence of, um, bulimia in the ADHD ... And like, the, I think ... It's like, it's ... Your, your risk of having an eating disorder is massively elevated if you have ADHD. And so all this stuff just sort of falls into place, and you realize that what you've been ... So where I'm talking to you now as someone who has just got, gotten an ADHD diagnosis and is not really quite comfortable with it yet, but it does, it does explain my life. And like, why did I never settle down and have kids? Why did I never ... I was a, you know, I was a kind of ... I don't say this in an arrogant way, 'cause I'm not an arrogant person, but, you know, as a, as a young journalist, I had the potential to do incredibly well. People really liked my voice, and I was kind of different. But, but I couldn't get beyond a certain place. And I watched other people race past me, but they were like neurotypical, and they had this kind of capacity to just get on and do something that I just couldn't. Like my life just constantly descended into kind of barely contained chaos. Um-

Alex Partridge 20:48 During those,

Alex Partridge 20:49 during that chaos, was there ro- romantic relationships running alongside all of this?

Kate Spicer 20:53 Yeah, I was, I was always, I was always in ... Well, I was, I wasn't addicted to relationships. A lot ... I see a lot of my girlfriends kind of, and boyfriends actually, they kind of always got to be in relationships. I was always in and out. I quite, quite happy being single, but I would have ... What's interesting about my relationships, until I met my most, my current partner, is they always lasted two years, which is when the oxytocin runs out, which is a stimulant really. Oxytocin, it's the bonding chemical. It's the love drug. It's, it's that high, and it's kind of a great treatment for ADHD, and you can hyperfocus on that person. And, um, you're, you're s- you're taking drugs. It's oxytocin. It's a drug. You know, love is the drug. I mean, you know, Bryan Ferry wasn't the only one to experience that. Um, but once the oxytocin drains away and that bonding period that oxytocin gives you as an animal, which is designed to pair you up with a male human, have you breed, get you pregnant, get the baby out, then raise the baby until it's just strong enough for the male to bugger off, and the woman then can then raise it within the human pack or whatever, that's what ox- oxytocin is there for pr- evolutionary terms. And that was about as far as I could take a relationship, as far as the oxytocin would take me, and then when the little baggie of ox- oxytocin ran out, the relationship went into terrible decline. And of course, having ADHD and having emotional dysregulation, drama, the drama, you know, as the person's affection kind of dries up for you because it's getting weird and it's getting difficult, your emotional dysre- dysregulation has you swinging from being like, whatever, super cool, not interested, don't need you, to being like really clingy and desperate and ... You know, and this ... Alex, this is me unpacking my entire life in two-month periods since I've been diagnosed. Like, I'm looking at an entire lifetime trying to understand why I did all ... 'Cause I could never understand why I couldn't get my shit together. I thought it was 'cause I was a useless person or a bad person. I still think that. You know, I have that internalized. They talk about, you know, gay people who have internalized, um, homophobia. They talk about women who have internalized misogyny, 'cause that's the culture we've been brought up in. I have internalized prejudice towards people with ADHD, even though I believe it, it's real, it's there, but there's an internal narrative that is very, very negative about it and can't ... And I, I look at, I look back at my life, and I'm making sense of my life through the filter of ADHD. Um, and it's like, you're not, you weren't a bad person. You weren't a failure. You did, you did well considering you have ADHD. But I'm like, "No, you don't have ADHD. You're just a bad person. You just couldn't get your shit together. You're just not as good as that person." You know, internal mad narrative, like a really heavy episode of the Today program, except I'm the, the victim and the questioner. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 24:03 Were there moments throughout those years where you did want kids?

Kate Spicer 24:08 Yeah, I mean, I always wanted kids, always, but I just never got myself into a satisfactory place to give it a go. Um, probably just as well really that I don't perpetuate, [laughs] perpetuate this kind of chaos. But, um- Yeah, no, I've, I've, I've missed a lot. I've lost a lot, for sure. But, you know, it's life

Alex Partridge 24:33 And at the end of those two years, 'cause it's a very familiar story with-

Kate Spicer 24:37 The cycle. You mean the cycle, the oxytocin cycle?

Alex Partridge 24:40 Absolutely.

Kate Spicer 24:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Partridge 24:41 What's your style of ending the relationship when it runs out?

Kate Spicer 24:44 Oh. Um, the big one was to just drive them away so I didn't have to do the finishing. Just become madder and madder and madder, and harder and harder to deal with, or sometimes I'd just walk out.

Alex Partridge 24:59 What's your biggest realization about your past?

Kate Spicer 25:02 Well, I think, like I keep saying to you, is that everything can be explained by not having any executive function, because there's a big hole in the front of my head. Um, it's quite heartbreaking actually, to think that I've gone through decades of my life blaming myself and sort of beating myself up for not being better. It's huge. It's huge having to reassess your life and... But apparently you feel shame when you, in your pre kind of ADHD state, 'cause you can't get your shit together and be, like, neurotypical, but then you feel a lot of shame afterwards for being the ADHD person you are. Can you relate to that?

Alex Partridge 25:42 Yes, I can.

Kate Spicer 25:44 In what way?

Alex Partridge 25:45 I used to feel incredible shame about abandoning projects. I used to g- get excited about an idea, and I would tell someone, and I meant it. I really meant that I was gonna start that business. And then I a- avoided them for the months that followed, because I had no interest in that business anymore, and I was so shameful to answer the question that would come if I met them and they said, "So, have you made progress with that?" And I would have to say, "No, I've lost interest in it." Again.

Kate Spicer 26:11 So you ghosted them?

Alex Partridge 26:12 A lot of the time, yeah.

Kate Spicer 26:13 Mm.

Alex Partridge 26:14 Yeah. I think that's quite common.

Kate Spicer 26:17 I mean, I, I couldn't do that as a freelance journalist. I needed to kinda come good on my, on my stuff, otherwise I wasn't gonna get any work. But I'd get working very late, and I thought all journalists did. I mean, that's, that's... Okay, you just asked me the question, what's your biggest realization? I thought everybody felt like this. Okay? I thought I was just normal. And I've had a few flashes of insight into the fact that I wasn't normal over the years. I remember a very, very good friend of mine talking to me about being... I don't know if she was depressed, but she was going through a hard time, and she was given six weeks off work, full pay. And I mean, as a freelance person, that would've been a dream for me. But I mean, I could never stop working, because I'd just be out on the street and homeless. Um, and she was... And she... I was like, "Well, how do you feel?" You know, "Why are you taking this sabbatical? Like, how do you feel?" And she described how she felt, and I was like, "I feel like that every day." She was like, "Oh, you know, I just feel really low, and I don't have any self-belief, and I can't seem to get anything done." And this was, like, an exceptional period in her life that required her to have six weeks paid, paid leave from work. I was like, "I feel like that every day. W- what do you mean? Is, is that not normal?" Like, there's people out there walking around who are perfectly happy. There are... Are there? Are there?

Alex Partridge 27:53 They might look happy.

Kate Spicer 27:55 Exactly. Everybody's miserable, right? Are they?

Alex Partridge 27:59 There's probably a distinction between what they're presenting and what's going on-

Kate Spicer 28:03 Yeah

Alex Partridge 28:03 ... underneath with most people.

Kate Spicer 28:04 Yeah. I mean, one of the things I noticed when I started taking the medication was, uh, all the chatter recedes. You just focus. All the chatter goes. Your, your mind is... You're stimulated, which I find a bit odd, to have that sort of slightly stimulated feeling. But you can concentrate. Like, your mind just calms right down. The monkey mind, the monkey leaves your brain, and a kind of a tortoise takes

Kate Spicer 28:35 up.

Alex Partridge 28:35 When you, when you started the medication, were you worried that it would numb your creative mind?

Kate Spicer 28:40 Honestly, did I think the medication would numb my creative mind? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. What I was worried about is that I would be stimulated and I would be high, and I couldn't believe that that would be a good thing for a person, 'cause they're stimulants, and they're quite uncomplicated stimulants. I mean, if you've take- You've taken stimulant drugs, right? Recreational drugs. Recreational sounds hilarious, doesn't it? There, there's no recreational drug users. Um, they're all self-medicating. But if you've taken stimulants or you've drunk too much coffee, um, they're stimulants. They're drugs, and you're taking them every single day. I mean, I've spent my whole adult life trying to stop taking stimulants, and now I'm having them prescribed to me. That's a head fuck. I can't get my head around that. But in terms of creativity, no, I'm not worried about that at all, no.

Alex Partridge 29:40 Is the medication helping?

Kate Spicer 29:44 It's helping get things done. Um, I think the arrival of the menopause made things even madder for me, and, and also a lot of other stresses in life that just... Life throws stress at you, doesn't it? And you need to be able to just get on with things. But I tell you what I had. I'd be really interested to know if you've had anybody else on this who's done this, but I, bef- long before I, um, was medicated for ADHD or was even really thinking

Kate Spicer 30:14 about ADHD, I did some, um, underground ayahuasca journeys. Journeys, they call them. I mean, I did it to, I did it for my mental health. I didn't do it for spiritual growth, that's for sure. I did it-

Alex Partridge 30:26 Oh

Kate Spicer 30:26 ... 'cause I was trying to f- fix me.

Alex Partridge 30:28 Ayahuasca, that's a hallucinagentic.

Kate Spicer 30:31 Yeah. So it's a plant medicine. Like, so it comes from the same kind of- It's not the same compound as psilocybin. It's DMT, and psilocybin's different. So, um, it's used in traditional societies to kind of do visionary journeying and for healing and for a lot of different things, and it's made its way into the West now. And-

Alex Partridge 30:56 Magic mushrooms?

Kate Spicer 30:57 No. Magic mushrooms is psilocybin. Ayahuasca is actually a form of DMT-

Alex Partridge 31:02 Right

Kate Spicer 31:02 ... which is a different molecule that acts on the brain in a different way. But it's a, it's, um, hallucinogenic, yeah, and v- and very heavy, like really heavy going. Um, but a very dark experience. But it had an exceptional result for me. It was really difficult to do. You kind of lie ... You know, I was basi- in the fetal position a lot of the time for all, all night on this really strong hallucinogenic drug that takes you into the, like, the darkest recesses of your mind and your most uncomfortable thoughts. Absolute torture. And then in the morning, you open ... You kind of, you're not, you kind of go to ... It, it's generally always done at night. And then in the morning, you open your eyes. You're like, "Oh, my God. I'm still there. It's awful." And then something lifts in you, and it's like this whole lot of weight has been lifted from your mind, 'cause basically, a bit like, like psilocybin and why psychedelics are being explored so much in neuroscience and psychiatry is it, um ... For want of a more technical way of describing it, it kind of beats new pathways in your brain. And if you think you are ... You know, I mean, and my, my mind was like the M25. It was just round and round and round and round with the same beating myself up, endless crap. And then out of that, you know, I was achieving. I was doing a lot. You know, I was getting a lot done. But I'm, but I was dealing with this internal misery monologue that was just very, just very negative, just a lot of negative self-talk, um, lot of negative chatter. And, and it really, really helped with that. It really helped with focus. And I did it once, and I wrote a book. And then I thought, "I'm gonna do it again," 'cause I wanted to write another book, and I wrote, and I wrote another book. And it was phenomenally helpful. And I think I'm gonna see how I get on with the stimulant medication, because it may be that I can manage my ADHD with very careful, very well-selected psychedelic treatment. Because you ... I mean, psychedelics are full-on. I would not suggest anybody does it just on their own, experimenting, or that they just go with any old person to do it, but it did have an incredible result. And but I've also done it and had very bad results. So, I, I mean, I've ... I'm, I'm gonna write a book about this, um, because y- you know, it, it was, it was very good. It was like a curate's egg. It was good in parts, the psychedelic experience for me, but it did help make my brain a better functioning thing. And, uh, I suspect you could go with, with very clever, with very targeted psychedelic interventions and not have to deal with the stimulant medication. Because what worries me about it are the med- ... Like, the people dealing with my diagnosis medically, they're like, "Just don't worry about it. Just keep taking the stimulant medication. It's fine." But it's very hard for me, as someone who's fought a stimulant addiction all my life ... I mean, very controlled. You know, not, I wasn't, like, doing coke in the loos while I'm doing interviews or anything like that, but, but it was there, and it's, I couldn't, I didn't have control over it. And then suddenly to be taking prescribed stimulants, it's just feels slightly weird to me. I mean, why don't you take medication?

Alex Partridge 34:44 I worry that it would interfere with the way my brain works, and there are drawbacks to the way my brain works, but I feel like I'm managing them. I feel like I manage the positives quite successfully.

Kate Spicer 34:54 What was your upbringing like? What was your childhood like?

Alex Partridge 34:57 Very stable.

Kate Spicer 34:58 Yeah. So you grew up with a lot of love, and you grew up knowing you're a good person.

Alex Partridge 35:03 Yeah.

Kate Spicer 35:04 Yeah. You see, I think that's where ADHD ... I think if you've had stuff happen in your childhood when your brain's really plastic, and you've burnt f- ... You know, the M25, which is burnt when you're a kid, which is, has a lot of negativity in it and a lot of negative voices, and then you add AD- ADHD to that, I think it's really tricky to manage that because the two things ... I mean, people talk about this a lot. I'm very suspicious of the word trauma. I think it can be used to kind of play a very sort of a bit of a victim game. But I think trauma and ADHD intersect in a really, really frightening way. I think ... I would ... I mean, I, I've read, um, Gabor Maté's book, um, about ADHD, and I've read his book about addiction, which was his fir- In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts. And in that book he says, 'cause he's dealing with hopeless street addicts in Toronto. I think it's Toronto. Anyway, some Canadian city. Hopeless street addicts. And he's, at some point in that book, he said a lot of times the most hopeless drug addicts could be dealt with with ADHD medication. Like, their addiction was about trying to treat their ADHD. And I can see now that it, the, this ... We talk, we talking about stimming earlier. So you're constantly just seeking to kind of get homeos- ... Your br- ... All your body wants is homeostasis, balance, and you don't have enough dopamine. Like, your dopamine doesn't work in the right way, so you're constantly dopamine shopping and going around looking for it. Sometimes it takes the form of a particular type of food Other times it takes the form of spending money in a madcap way. Sometimes it's m- weird relationships, it's arguing, it's deadlines, it's... You, you find your dopamine where you can and, and one surefire way to get dopamine is to take drugs, and to smoke, or, and to, you know... So yeah.

Alex Partridge 37:07 You think you're sensitive to criticism?

Kate Spicer 37:10 Uh, yes. Yes, definitely I am, but I've also have had to learn to swallow that, 'cause I'm a, a freelance journalist. But also, I think my perfectionism comes from not wanting to receive any criticism, so I'll spend a hell of a lot of time working on something because I'm terrified of being criticized. So quite often my work will come in and people'll go, "Oh, how much did they change your work?" I'm like, "Well, n- not at all 'cause it's been really well-written," but I've spent far too long on it 'cause I can't bear the thought of being criticized or of getting it wrong. But, you know, we w- w- what we were talking about there was about, you know, you had a loving, stable upbringing, and I'm not saying my family don't love me, but there was a lot of... I think anybody watching this who has ADHD and has kind of trauma in their life will understand how trauma and ADHD intersect, and they... I mean, they, they say that trauma can, like, pull the trigger on ADHD. Like, you could probably go through life not thinking you have ADHD if you didn't have the trauma to kind of trigger it.

Alex Partridge 38:18 I think y- you've got trauma, which can create lots, lots of lookalike traits of ADHD. If you've got ADHD and also you experience trauma, then that can be really messy.

Kate Spicer 38:28 Yeah. Super ADHD.

Alex Partridge 38:30 Super AD- [laughs] Yeah. The g- Is that the good type or the, or the worst type?

Kate Spicer 38:34 Yeah. I don't know. Like, mega... Yeah. I h- I can't think of any acronyms, though.

Alex Partridge 38:41 Have e- people ever called you lazy?

Kate Spicer 38:44 Um, no one's ever called me lazy except me. I thought, "Oh, I'm so lazy," and then I re- realized quite early on in life that laziness is this kind of secondary manifestation of... It's a manifestation of something else. It's a secondary thing. Like, the, there's something about anger being... Anger is not a primary emotion. Laziness is not a primary action. It's a consequence of something. And I realized very early that what laziness was was the, like, the most glamorous way you could put it, if we were on some sort of arts podcast now talking about my process, I'd be like, "Oh, the procrastination's part of my process." And, and it is. You, you, you, you know, when you're going through procrastination pr- there's kind of good procrastination when you really come up with a lot of ideas, and you really consolidate a lot of disparate thoughts. And in a way, taking the stimulant medication, I've lost a lot of that procrastinatory kind of gestation period when you really get to grips with ideas, 'cause it makes you very dynamic. The stimulant medication makes you sit down and do things. Um, and the procrastination does have a, a real positive to it, but then it can go into very toxic procrastination, where you're actually just procrastinating 'cause you have no self-worth and no self-belief, and you don't believe you can do something. And actually, you kinda can't. You're just... You, you're immobilized by your lack of executive function. And then you further immobilize yourself by feeling shit at the end of the day 'cause you haven't done enough work, so you're like, "Oh, I'm gonna have a drink."

Alex Partridge 40:24 Mm.

Kate Spicer 40:24 "Raise my dopamine levels. Have a little bit of GABA come down." I mean, there we are, amateur endocrinologist here. Um, but, you know, and then it kind of snowballs. But my boyfriend said something to me the other day. Um, he's not dealing with my ADHD thing at all well. Um, he can't... He just doesn't want me to have ADHD. But he said something like, "You're..." We were talking about something, and he said, "You don't have ADHD, you just don't try hard enough." Which is a kind of textbook. I could almost see it in an Instagram square of, like, some ADHD meme person or influencer like you kind of, you know, coming up with the chat that you have to swallow your fucking life if you've got ADHD. But it's like, yeah, he just said, "You don't have ADHD, you just don't try hard enough." [laughs] It's just textbook, isn't it?

Alex Partridge 41:22 Do you think he's c- confusing procrastination with laziness?

Kate Spicer 41:27 I think he's confusing kind of fear and low self-esteem and, and just the internal kind of monologue of ADHD of just sort of dealing with the constant narrative that you're not good enough, and you're... You know, it's quite, it's quite a complex... I mean, it would be quite interesting to write down all the different things that you think about yourself. I tried to do it in a recent Substack, actually, and interestingly, my stuff is super paywalled, 'cause I really only want people who are on my side to be reading my stuff, and if people aren't on my side, then they've gotta bloody pay to don- not be on my side. But I wrote a piece yesterday, um, recently about kind of just slowly losing my shit and going into a really bad place, and then going off and having a bit of a drinking binge. I mean, when I say drinking binge, I mean I drank, like, four glasses of wine. You know, I, I wasn't kind of drinking Buckfast tonic wine and falling under buses or anything. But, um, I wrote a, a list of sort of the things that I was saying to myself.

Alex Partridge 42:35 Mm.

Kate Spicer 42:35 The kind of... And I think it's called, um, a thought spiral. So you go, you start spiraling into this sort of doom, doom narrative. And, um, somebody got, got in touch with me and kind of highlighted that, and she said, "You've articulated that-" Sort of d- that sort of doom spiral absolutely perfectly. And I noticed she was the daughter of a, quite a famous arms dealer, so I can only assume that she also has ADHD. But anyway, she was, um, she was, uh... Not that the two things are linked. But yeah, she, but she... I was relieved to hear from someone that they also have this kind of, you know, several layers of like a sort of chorus of, of people saying negative things, all of you- all of whom are yourself.

Alex Partridge 43:21 Mm.

Kate Spicer 43:21 Um, but yeah, it is, it's like, it's like the inner critic, but there's a whole round table of them. It's like the Algonquin Round Table of inner critics.

Alex Partridge 43:33 And all of those voices, they can be very overwhelming.

Kate Spicer 43:37 Yeah, overwhelming, I think, would probably be a good word, yeah.

Alex Partridge 43:40 To the point where it forces you into procrastination through paralysis?

Kate Spicer 43:45 No, I can, I can be, I can procrastinate in a very peaceful way. I mean, I, I'm very, very sensitive to alcohol, lack of sleep, crap food. Even smoking a cigarette can, like, I can feel it in my body. So I can be, I can procrastinate and not have l- a shit ton of inner critic stuff going on. I just go into a procrastinatory state. Um, but negative self-talk, like, you can wake up in the morning, and before your eyes are even open, there's just, like, loads and loads of voices, and just, and, and, and, and, and you'll have loads of ideas as well. Like, some of them, like, I'm sure you've experienced this, where you've got, like, layers and layers and layers of ideas, plus an inner critic, plus a kind of, you know, maybe a bit of, like, inner self-belief, and, you know, it's just like a, a chorus.

Alex Partridge 44:32 Well, I think very busy-

Kate Spicer 44:32 The dawn chorus

Alex Partridge 44:34 ... very busy creative minds, they need that time to pause. I think procrastination has sometimes a, a bit of a negative connotation, a bit of a ne- negative label. But actually, it's a positive. It's a recharge, because perhaps your brain actually uses more energy than the neurotypical brain. I don't think procrastination is necessarily a bad thing.

Kate Spicer 44:53 No, I think we-

Alex Partridge 44:53 I think it's a tool for, to recharge the amazingness that is in there. Uh, Leonardo da Vinci was guilty of procrastination.

Kate Spicer 45:00 Well, Leonardo da Vinci, um, is... I don't know if you've ever encountered a guy called Dr, I think it's Alberto Pattuzi, and he talks about Leonardo da Vinci probably had ADHD, because he left loads and loads of projects left undone, and he felt terrible about it. Like, this, he's written about it. You know, so, and, and we were talking earlier about-

Alex Partridge 45:27 Mm

Kate Spicer 45:27 ... procrastination. There's toxic procr- I think there is toxic procrastination, and then there is, yeah, very productive procrastination. Actually talking to you makes me realize that I do need to procrastinate. But there's also, the problem with ADHD was, you can be really bad at making money. Like, really, really bad at making money, and in the end, making money is just a form of self-care, and I don't know what you're like about self-care.

Alex Partridge 45:54 Could be better. Getting better, more aware of my mortality.

Kate Spicer 45:57 Do you shower every day?

Alex Partridge 45:58 Yes. Yeah. Teeth brushing, like, I, I brush my teeth twice a day, but recently it's only in the last... You know, I used to be pretty bad at it. Just-

Kate Spicer 46:07 Showering

Alex Partridge 46:07 ... and I knew I had to do... No, showering's always been fine. Toothbrushing is something I knew I had to do, but the t- initiation of starting it was always incredibly difficult.

Kate Spicer 46:16 It's so weird, isn't it? Because I'm like that about showering, uh, to the point where I have to almost smell myself to get in the shower, and even then I'll push it for another day.

Alex Partridge 46:30 Drinking water or just going for a wee, I mean, they can feel like an uphill battle sometimes.

Kate Spicer 46:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm quite good at drinking water and going for wees 'cause I'm sort of a bit obsessed by that stuff because, uh, uh, very early on in my life I was, like, trying to do the right things for me. But yeah, making, making money is a form of self-care, and I understand that there are lots of people with ADHD who are great entrepreneurs. I think, like, 40% of entrepreneurs have ADHD.

Alex Partridge 46:56 Mm.

Kate Spicer 46:56 That's the, that's the figure they put on it. I think a lot of these stats are slightly snatched from the air. Um, but I see the point that stat is making. But also, people with ADHD are famously really, really bad with money, and that pretty much characterizes my life.

Alex Partridge 47:13 Let's move on to your ADHD item.

Kate Spicer 47:15 Mm.

Alex Partridge 47:16 I'm desperate to know what's under that cloth. I ask all my guests for an item that most represents ADHD in their life.

Kate Spicer 47:22 Okay, who's gonna do the big reveal?

Alex Partridge 47:23 Shall I lean over?

Kate Spicer 47:24 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 47:24 Lift it up?

Kate Spicer 47:25 It's a massive bag of cocaine. [laughs] Oh, it's a massive bag of crisps. Not my flavor of choice, but I have done those.

Alex Partridge 47:34 I'll pass these to you.

Kate Spicer 47:35 Okay. I won't eat them-

Alex Partridge 47:37 We, we, we-

Kate Spicer 47:37 ... 'cause it's not an asthma podcast. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 47:39 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 47:39 We'll just have a little rustle.

Alex Partridge 47:41 Crisps. What's going on there?

Kate Spicer 47:43 Well, crisps are very famously... I mean, look, if you do quizzes on the internet about ADHD, like, once you move away from the very diagnostic medical ones that are being sort of box ticked by governments, you quite often get, "You eat crunchy foods. You eat crisps. You like crisps." And when I was sort of starting to explore the potential of me having an I- ADHD diagnosis, these questions came out, and I was like, "This is bullshit."

Alex Partridge 48:11 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 48:12 Firstly, everyone loves crisps, and secondly, you can't diagnose someone with a mental disorder because they eat crisps. Are you serious? But actually, they are a form of stimming. They give you dopamine, and it's... And then I've been speaking to special needs teachers, and they give their kids with n- neurodevelopmental disorders, they give them crisps and carrot sticks and celery, because crunchy foods do something, you know. This is the expert who's not an expert talking here.

Alex Partridge 48:48 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 48:49 They do something or other. And, um- S- that something or other is what we crave. So, um, my thing with crisps was mental. Like, I could really... If I was low, um, energetically or, or just mentally, crisps, crisps, crisps. And, um, funny enough, since I've been diagnosed and I've been medicated, I haven't been eating very many crisps, which is really says quite a lot. I just don't crave them in the same way. And I'd always crave them when I was feeling a bit flat. I just, they, they give me dopamine. Pretty short-lived, pretty crap dopamine, but they give me dopamine. Um, so when you say an ADHD item, an ADH- ETD, um, yeah, it's my... Yeah, it's crisps, crunchy crisps.

Alex Partridge 49:41 Well, it's fascinating, and they will proudly go on the shelves for the rest of time-

Kate Spicer 49:45 Okay, where are we gonna put them?

Alex Partridge 49:46 ... for all of the future episodes. Uh, oh, I'll find a spot later on.

Kate Spicer 49:49 Razzle. I think next to Razzle.

Alex Partridge 49:50 Maybe n- next to Razzle. Okay.

Kate Spicer 49:51 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 49:51 We'll put them next to Razzle.

Kate Spicer 49:52 Let's put it next to Razzle. So that actually means someone who was using, um-

Alex Partridge 49:57 There we go. Perfect

Kate Spicer 49:57 ... using pornography.

Alex Partridge 49:59 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 49:59 Is that a coke spoon?

Alex Partridge 50:01 Uh, no, but we can... No, it's not. It's just, it's... Do you like big spoons?

Kate Spicer 50:07 There- there's something about big spoon. What do you mean, like big spoons?

Alex Partridge 50:09 So that particular guest, a lady called Holly Matthews, her item was a little spoon-

Kate Spicer 50:14 Yeah

Alex Partridge 50:14 ... because she can't stand big spoons. And she didn't really-

Kate Spicer 50:17 There, there's something about that, isn't there?

Alex Partridge 50:19 Well, it seems to be quite a relatable point in the community. Do you have an issue with big spoons?

Kate Spicer 50:25 Hmm. I don't think so, but there could be a bit of auto-suggestion here, bit of placebo kicking in. Like, "Oh, I'll stop t- going near big spoons, and my ADHD will be cured."

Alex Partridge 50:36 I think my producer mentioned that it was... He suggested that it might be a control issue. You have more control, more prec- precision with a small spoon-

Kate Spicer 50:46 Hmm

Alex Partridge 50:46 ... over than, over a big spoon.

Kate Spicer 50:49 I mean, I grew up in a household where you ate pudding with a fork. Um, so I don't really like puddings w- to be eaten with a spoon. I get it. I get it, and I know someone, I know someone else who I suspect might have ADHD who eats everything with a

Kate Spicer 51:06 small spoon.

Alex Partridge 51:07 This is an interesting one. Um, do you think there's a link between ADHD, RSD, self-esteem, and the pursuit to be seen as beautiful?

Kate Spicer 51:17 What's RSD?

Alex Partridge 51:18 Rejection sensitive dysphoria.

Kate Spicer 51:20 Yeah, yeah. Though that's part of emotional dysregulation, isn't it?

Alex Partridge 51:23 It's one of the worst kinds of emotional dysregulation, yeah.

Kate Spicer 51:26 Yeah. So I was write, wr- writing about this recently. Um, women who kind of become... Women who use cosmetic medicine have, a bit like entrepreneurs, have quite high incidence of ADHD. People with depression are much more likely to use cosmetic medicine, kind of treatments and cosmetic surgery and all that kind of thing. I think so many people are undiagnosed ADHD that we can't say for certain, can we? There's certainly a link between self-esteem and the pursuit for, to be beautiful. You think Mary Beard goes and has Botox?

Alex Partridge 52:12 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 52:13 No, I think she has great self-belief.

Alex Partridge 52:16 Do you personally feel any of that pressure?

Kate Spicer 52:18 Well, I wrote a story about this in the Mail, don't judge me, recently, um, about giving up cosmic, like Botox and fillers and things, which I have totally, really. Um, but I went in for a little, a little bit recently, and I'm kind of like, "Why? Why can't you age? Why can't you bear to look at your real face in the mirror?" Um, and I was trying to work out if it was a mental health thing, but then also it's just, it's just hard getting old, so maybe it's okay. Maybe you don't, don't have to turn everything into a kind of pathologizable problem.

Alex Partridge 52:56 Can you, just for our male listeners, briefly describe what being undiagnosed ADHD at school is like from a female perspective?

Kate Spicer 53:05 Uh, by the time I got to school, by the time I got to kind of grown-up school, there was a lot of kind of drinking and rolling around and... But I was quite, I was quite good at school. I was quite a good girl at school, but there were a few subjects that I just could not get my head round, like languages. Disaster. Like, I did really well in all my, um, O-levels, as they were then. Nana, Nana chatting here. But, um, when it came to languages, it was just a disaster. Carnage. Like, U after U after U after U. I couldn't even get up to an E. And I've, I've since Googled that, try and make myself feel better about myself, and I do think people with ADHD can have problems learning languages.

Alex Partridge 53:51 I think so. I'll, I'll be-

Kate Spicer 53:52 And I don't know that I've got anything for your male readers there at all. But I do remember there were kids at school, always boys, who were, like, throwing chairs and going ballistic, and I think probably they were people with quite severe ADHD. There was a guy at m- my school I went to in Salford who used to throw chairs across the classroom when he was about 10. And, um, I always remembered him, 'cause that was, you know, even at the age of 10, I knew that he was probably suffering. And I realize now he probably just had really severe ADHD.

Alex Partridge 54:23 Can you remember what your school reports said?

Kate Spicer 54:26 Um, I think I coasted through school, actually. There were certain subjects I hyper-focused on, like I loved history, I loved English, um, I loved drama. I, I think I just got by, and it was only when I got to A-levels and I realized I could only rev- resi- revise, resign. I could only revise with a deadline, so basically, when it came to my degree, I crammed my whole degree in two weeks. That's quite hard to cram a degree in two weeks Like really quite hard, 'cause I basically crammed my A levels, but I c- actually really loved the subjects I did at A level, two of the subjects I did at A level. The other two I didn't cram- I didn't love, and I fa- I pretty much failed them, and then the two I loved, I did really well in. And then, uh, my degree, when my whole life fell apart and I didn't have the structure of home and family, which I think, and school, which I think holds ADHD girls together really quite well because you're just performing and being a good girl and showing up and helping out. And then, yeah, just cramming a degree. I mean, just thinking about it makes me feel bizarre. Like, basically, I'd read... I'd just put everything on cards and then I'd, I'd work for 20 minutes, and I'd go downstairs and dance for five minutes, and I'd come upstairs and work for 20 minutes, and I'd go downstairs and dance for five minutes, give myself a bit of dopamine. And I did this for, like, nonstop for two weeks, and I'd, I'd scraped a degree, basically. But, uh, what were we talking about? Oh, we were talking about school and how... Yeah, I couldn't work. And then, so when I got to university, I realized, like, at university, to really achieve at university, you need to unpack the subject, read around it, be engaged, but I couldn't work without a deadline. I mean, that's why I'm a freelance journalist. I cannot get anything done without a deadline. So I created a s- a s- a job that's pretty painful, doesn't pay me particularly well, but it meets my ADHD needs of a deadline, so I can, you know, get the old noradrenaline going and work on cortisol, which is a good proxy for dopamine, isn't it? Um, amateur endocrinologist here. [laughs]

Kate Spicer 56:45 Um-

Alex Partridge 56:45 Are there any attributes of yourself that, to someone who doesn't understand ADHD, might struggle to understand?

Kate Spicer 56:54 Yeah, I think a lot. A lot. I think people moan about me a lot. Um, yeah, I mean, do you want me to list them?

Alex Partridge 57:05 What's the one that's coming to mind, if, if you would?

Kate Spicer 57:08 I mean, there's so many. I mean, I'll give you an example. My stepfather, this is one of the reasons I thought I probably did have ADHD, actually, was my stepfather, who I don't have a brilliant relationship with. It's all right. He likes to kind of have a little jab, a little poke, and whenever I go down to see my mum, I'll be in the kitchen. Usually, when he comes back from work, I will have arrived sort of mid-afternoon. I'll be in the kitchen chatting to my mum, but I'm still a bit dysregulated from the car. I'm all sort of discombobulated, and, um, I'll be talking, and the first thing he does when he comes in, he goes... I mean, it's so fucking rude and so fucking annoying, but I realize I have a loud voice, and a lot of people on my mother's side of the family have loud voices, and I think a lot of them have ADHD. If I s- go back through my mum's side of the family, there's an awful lot of women talking like this, who are absolutely brilliant but completely fucking mad. So I guess I'm just a long line of those. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 58:18 [laughs] If you could go to dinner with a group of neurotypicals or a group of neurodivergents, what would you choose?

Kate Spicer 58:26 Well, depends if I've got any stimulants to deal with it. Um-

Alex Partridge 58:29 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 58:31 Oh, God. I... D- you know what? I, I'm, I'm, um, I like all sorts of people. If people like me, I like... and I like them back, I don't care if they're neurodivergent or, or neurotypical. I really don't care. I just like to feel comfortable with people. I mean, I've got friends of mine who are very neurotypical, and I love them for loving me, 'cause I can see they find me a bit much. But because, until recently, I didn't think I had ADHD, and I was just me, and I didn't think there was anything wrong with me. Like, I didn't... I thought everybody was dealing with trying to keep themselves under control and contain their worst kind of... I mean, everybody is, aren't they? Everybody's, like, walking around trying to keep themselves within a kind of roughly manageable kind of constraint of behavior. And, um, so I didn't think there was anything wrong with me. I mean, I did, but I also didn't, and, and I realize now that probably I am quite a lot and a bit weird and awkward. But, um, you know, people like me, so if people like me, I like spending time with them.

Alex Partridge 59:36 Do you think there might be a bit of autism in you as well?

Kate Spicer 59:40 No. [laughs] No. But I don't fucking know. I didn't think there was any ADHD in me, so.

Alex Partridge 59:44 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 59:45 Um, God. No, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, that's a lot. I mean, my friend Stacy, who... You should get her on here, actually. She's on, um, I can't... She's Stacy Duguid on, uh, Instagram. She talks a lot about her ADHD, like, a lot, and she's been very public about it. And, um, she was the one that just went on and on. "You've got ADHD. You've got ADHD," she'd say it in front of other people, and I'd be like, "Stop fucking saying that." And, um, she was like... And then she started talking about how she's Scottish. She'd be like, "Oh, I think I've got autism as well." I was like, "For fuck's sake." But then, now I'm like... And she goes, "I think you've got it, too." And I'm like, "Oh my God. What else have I got?" You know? Um, "You're actually, you're actually paraplegic and you don't realize it."

Alex Partridge 1:00:38 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 1:00:39 You know? It's like, "Fucking shut up. Stop diagnosing me with things that I can exist perfectly well without being diagnosed." And that's the thing with ADHD, isn't it? So many of us weren't thriving, but we were surviving, and now, once you're post an ADHD diagnosis, it's like, "What the fuck do I do with this? What do I do with it?" And, like, I just walk around all the time now. It's a bit like when you do a big psychedelic trip. It changes you forever, because you've been into another dimension in your mind, and it's really impossible to forget, and the things it teaches you are impossible to forget. And you never forget about it. You never stop thinking about it. It's always there in the back of your mind. And now the ADHD's like that too. It's just there in the back of my mind. "Oh, ADHD. Oh, yeah, I don't know. What do I do with it?"

Alex Partridge 1:01:32 We've got a closing tradition on the podcast, Kate, and that's

Alex Partridge 1:01:35 to ask all the guests: What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done?

Kate Spicer 1:01:39 Oh my God, I couldn't tell you, 'cause it's terrible. It's so terrible. The c- that cluster of years as I came out of university was just impulse after impulse after impulse. It was absolutely mental. So I'd, I've, I, I couldn't think... Like, I cli- I climbed a cliff once, a cliff just off a beach in a pair of espadrilles. I mean, I, I... That's another thing. That's another thing that comes back to you a lot. It's like, "I could have died. I could have died." [laughs] And there's so many of those moments, and there was a moment when we... It was, like, a sandy cliff. It was a sheer sandy cliff. And then, of course, I got off the cliff, survived, and then, of course, went and had sex with the man that I'd climbed the cliff with.

Alex Partridge 1:02:25 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 1:02:26 Got pissed with him and then got... then had sex with him. It was quite nice, actually. It was one of my more successful impulsive moments.

Alex Partridge 1:02:32 [laughs]

Kate Spicer 1:02:32 So we'll finish on that one.

Alex Partridge 1:02:33 Yeah. This has been fascinating. Kate, thank you so much.

Kate Spicer 1:02:36 Oh, thanks for putting up with me. [laughs]