Legendary comedian CLASHES with Doctor wife over ADHD legitimacy - Paul Whitehouse Dr Mine Conkbayir

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 0:00 ADHD impacts children living in poverty more than any

Alex Partridge 0:03 Paul Whitehouse

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 0:04 Dr Mine Conkbayir

Paul Whitehouse 0:06 He is an internationally recognized comedian

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 0:08 She is a best-selling author and neuroscientist

Paul Whitehouse 0:11 Who specializes in self-regulation

Alex Partridge 0:13 Is there are a lot of ADHD in the comedy community?

Paul Whitehouse 0:15 There seems to be, yeah. [laughs] You look at comedy now, we usually share little gifs, memes, clips, TikTok, YouTube. The mobile phone made everyone [laughs] ADHD.

Alex Partridge 0:27 How important do you think a sense of humor is in your relationship?

Paul Whitehouse 0:30 Um... A new study found that kids who receive behavioral therapy before medication fared much better in their development

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 0:37 Children are being branded as ADHD, and they're being dosed up to the eyeballs, when in many cases there is no real need for it. That limbic system cannot be bypassed. So when you've got the panic button, the brain's amygdala being hit so often as it is in an ADHD's brain, that just bypasses that the executive functioning skills can't come online because we haven't been co-regulated enough to be able to self-regulate.

Alex Partridge 1:03 How do you deal with your emotional dysregulation?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:06 I listen to... But number one, how can... I have to do it, or I, I'll, I will explode.

Alex Partridge 1:17 I'm sure you've heard this a million times on other podcasts, but it really does help if you follow the show or subscribe on YouTube, because it really helps me get bigger and better guests. And if you subscribe, I'll return the favor by promising that I'll never let this podcast be sponsored by Huel. Dr Mine, Paul, thank you so much for joining us.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:36 Thank you for having us.

Paul Whitehouse 1:36 Pleasure. Thank you very much.

Alex Partridge 1:38 I wanna start with a question that's keeping me up at night at the moment, and I suppose it's probably one for you.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:46 Oh, wow. I was waiting for you to say it was for Paul.

Alex Partridge 1:48 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:50 What do you think ADHD is? Do you think it's nature or nurture? How would you define it?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:57 Which comes first, though, nature or nurture? They're both inextricably linked. I think in my case it was definitely nurture. I was raised in sheer carnage, very unstable upbringing, full of violence, uncertainty. Neither of my parents could self-regulate, which means they couldn't manage their own emotions and their behavior, so there was nothing left to give to me in terms of co-regulating my emotions and my behavior. And they were just blueprints for everything wrong, really. I would, you know, I would always see things I shouldn't have seen, and, you know, part of that was seeing my dad hit my mum on a daily basis, the shouting, the screaming, the swearing. My mum, whenever she got angry, would bite the door frames. [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 3:00 [laughs] Don't laugh.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 3:01 You started it.

Paul Whitehouse 3:03 I didn't.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 3:03 Uh, but so there was-

Paul Whitehouse 3:03 I'm sure you sniggered there and gave me the reason to laugh

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 3:06 ... they, they... No, 'cause I'm remembering her, like, "Ahhh," and it's just like, it's madness. It's literally, it's madness. Um, and behaviors of my dad, term used loosely, the, I would see him shaking his legs a lot, and it would make me copy him, thinking, "Oh." But it was really b- just all odd stuff. And if you trace it back, well, what were their histories? Well, theirs were both immersed in trauma too, but they, they're not cognizant of that. They think they're wonderful and they're, they've been wonderful parents and their lives were wonderful, and th- they really weren't. It was pure trauma. So I, I firmly believe that my ADHD is a result of all of that trauma.

Alex Partridge 3:57 Do you think your parents had ADHD?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 3:59 The dad, yes. But how much of that was from the drug addiction and the alcohol addiction?

Paul Whitehouse 4:07 Well, they're possibly interrelated anyway, aren't they?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 4:09 Yeah. But then if it is ADHD, then the addiction could may... You know, that might be the stem there. But how, how far is it the trauma? How far is it the ADHD? They, they've never heard of ADHD. When I got my diagnosis and I told my mum, she was like, "Ooh, geçmiş olsun," which means get well soon in Turkish.

Paul Whitehouse 4:27 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 4:27 I'm like, "No, love, it doesn't go away." I said, "You've probably got it. You probably gave it to me." She went, "Look, it's all very well you getting diagnosed, but don't make it my fault."

Paul Whitehouse 4:36 Mm.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 4:36 "It's nothing to do with me, and I certainly don't have it."

Paul Whitehouse 4:39 I knew she'd say that. It's obvious.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 4:40 Of course.

Paul Whitehouse 4:40 I mean, just even give, attaching a label like that to somebody of your mum's generation and disposition is never gonna, she's never gonna understand it.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 4:51 Yeah, I mean, w- really volatile relationship. It's extremely toxic. And before I digress and forget what the hell I was talking about, I asked my therapist a few weeks ago, might have been a week ago, or the other day, I can't remember, but I said, "What is it? What has she got? 'Cause there's something wrong with her. Like, I can't handle it." You know, I was really upset at the time. She said, "Well, you know, sounds to me like classic, uh, borderline personality disorder, you know, and the roots often are from trauma." And I was like, "Oh, it makes so much sense now." But you can't say that to her-

Paul Whitehouse 5:27 Mm

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 5:27 ... because she's wonderful and everything's wonderful, and I'm, I'm, I'm crazy because I go to therapy. "It's the therapy that make you crazy. Stop it."

Alex Partridge 5:38 What do you think your biggest learning has been from therapy?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 5:44 I don't think I've learned anything from therapy. She frustrates me no end. I always cuss her. No, but she's wonderful in that she's an anchor. She knows me now. It's been seven, eight years. 'Cause I had a, I thought there was... Remember 2017? Boy, annus horribilis, man. That, that was intense. I thought I was going mad. I legitimately... Remember, or are you in denial?

Paul Whitehouse 6:08 No, I'm not in d-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 6:09 I thought I was losing the plot, and, um, Paul got me her.

Paul Whitehouse 6:12 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 6:13 And she said it's generalized anxiety disorder, but I, I... The only way I described it at the time, Alex, was a surge in my brain and my body.

Paul Whitehouse 6:24 Mm.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 6:24 I was like nonstop. Everything was freaking me out. That led to the OCD being rife. I couldn't, um... [lips smack] For example, the worst one is the bottles of water. If I don't remember opening it, then I'll believe it's contaminated, and I can't drink it, so he'll have to be the royal taster in it. Um, some of it-

Paul Whitehouse 6:46 God's helped me

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 6:47 ... it affects, like, all-

Paul Whitehouse 6:48 How I'm manipulated. Can I ask you, is that a sort of, um... But see, the question I wanna ask you, and I don't know if you have similar fears and, and feelings, is why do you think there's this big conspiracy to poison you?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 7:04 Um-

Alex Partridge 7:05 You got any enemies?

Paul Whitehouse 7:06 Yeah. [laughs] Well, many.

Alex Partridge 7:07 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 7:08 I, I have got many. I have got many enemies. It just makes me feel dirty inside. I can't explain it.

Paul Whitehouse 7:16 But there's nobody, like, you know, at the, the Perrier bottling plant [laughs] or wherever you-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 7:22 Well, there might be

Paul Whitehouse 7:22 ... get, yeah.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 7:23 I mean, for me-

Paul Whitehouse 7:24 Aha.

Alex Partridge 7:24 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 7:25 Now I know how I can get rid of her.

Alex Partridge 7:27 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 7:28 But I'm sure. I'm sure. No, I think it started-

Paul Whitehouse 7:30 No, but it is classic paranoia, isn't it? But-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 7:32 Yeah, but it started-

Paul Whitehouse 7:33 Yeah

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 7:33 ... when I was eight, the OCD, and it made me physically sick to the point where I'd end up in hospital, but nobody could join the dots, Alex, and I'm hoping that with everything everyone's doing at the moment, which I think is to be celebrated, there is greater awareness and understanding of how it manifests. So in terms of what she's taught me, not much really, but I like the comfort she provides.

Paul Whitehouse 7:56 Um, I suppose-

Alex Partridge 7:57 Yeah

Paul Whitehouse 7:57 ... when you're talking about, you know, in the past, it wasn't, wasn't acknowledged or recognized, nobody joined the dots, that's because, I mean, even as a term itself or acronym or whatever, it's only been ADHD for, what, tw- 20 years?

Alex Partridge 8:12 Mm-hmm.

Paul Whitehouse 8:13 Isn't it?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 8:13 '87.

Paul Whitehouse 8:14 Oh, right.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 8:15 Was it?

Paul Whitehouse 8:16 'Cause before that was ADD, wasn't it?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 8:18 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 8:18 It was ADD for a while.

Paul Whitehouse 8:19 And then before that, you had, like when I was young, you had hyperactive-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 8:23 Yeah, naughty

Paul Whitehouse 8:24 ... kids.

Alex Partridge 8:25 Mm.

Paul Whitehouse 8:25 But that was about [laughs] half the classroom, if, if not more. Certainly-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 8:30 But it probably is.

Paul Whitehouse 8:30 And, you know, it might well be, certainly with boys, anyway. So, I mean, sometimes we've talked about it not being a suitable definition really for-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 8:40 Well, there's no evidence that exists that states it is a disorder. That's the frustrating thing, and that's acknowledged in the text revisions-

Paul Whitehouse 8:46 Mm

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 8:46 ... of the DSM5, for example. So why on earth are we still h- clinging to these really detrimental labels?

Paul Whitehouse 8:53 But you just said that about your, your mum, borderline personality-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 8:56 Yeah, but I did that-

Paul Whitehouse 8:56 ... disorder

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 8:57 ... for disorder.

Paul Whitehouse 8:57 Oh, right, okay.

Alex Partridge 8:59 I think I agree. I think we should drop disorder and replace it with difference.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 9:03 Difference, absolutely.

Alex Partridge 9:04 And difference, I think, should be celebrated.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 9:06 Yes.

Alex Partridge 9:07 Because of course there will be struggles because the world is set up for-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 9:12 Neurotypicals

Alex Partridge 9:13 ... neurotypicals.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 9:13 Exactly.

Alex Partridge 9:14 And not for difference.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 9:15 Exactly.

Paul Whitehouse 9:16 But, but you've both done very well in this dreadful world that's so set up against you.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 9:21 I'm not earning any money. How am I doing very well? [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 9:24 Well, you're a doctor. You've done well given your, as you just talked about, your chaotic background. You're doing very well for yourself, Alex.

Alex Partridge 9:32 I think the... There's a handf- there's a bit of privilege, huge amount of privilege, I think, in my setup. I think I'm... The ones that do well are often the anomalies. Um, I think I've been aware of how my brain works for a long time, and I've made changes to accommodate myself, which has-

Paul Whitehouse 9:51 Yeah

Alex Partridge 9:51 ... given me... On the flip side, I've been in hospital through alcohol. I'm an alcoholic, recovering alcoholic, and-

Paul Whitehouse 9:57 Right

Alex Partridge 9:57 ... and that's my Achilles heel. My... I've been in the back of police cars. A nurse had told my parents if I had one more drink, I would've died from acute alcohol-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 10:06 No, I read your post this morning. It really... You are

Alex Partridge 10:08 So on the, on the one side, there's entrepreneurial creativity, pattern recognition, problem-solving, great judge of character, intuition, all of these amazing things.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 10:16 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 10:16 But on the flip side, tremendous internalized-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 10:18 Yeah

Alex Partridge 10:18 ... anxiety, which-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 10:19 Yeah

Alex Partridge 10:19 ... if you're not careful with me, and alcohol was the way to deal with that. Do you-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 10:24 Do you think the alcohol was ADHD related?

Alex Partridge 10:26 I think it's how, my coping mechanism, absolutely, for undiagnosed ADHD.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 10:31 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 10:31 And it nearly killed me. Um, it, it, it took me to hell and back.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 10:37 So the ADHD diagnosis helped you to cope-

Alex Partridge 10:40 I went to AA meetings, and that was when I first heard ADHD, and that was... I thought, "I keep hearing these four letters in this circle of people. What's going on?" And then, then actually, it was a couple years later that I got diagnosed and realized that... And now I know the link between ADHD and addiction. Alcohol, but it can be-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 10:59 Yeah

Alex Partridge 10:59 ... sugar.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 11:00 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 11:00 It can be work.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 11:01 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 11:02 It can be food, um-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 11:03 Yeah, anything

Alex Partridge 11:03 ... sex. It can be lots of things.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 11:04 Yeah, that's right.

Alex Partridge 11:05 You reach for that-

Paul Whitehouse 11:06 Sex.

Alex Partridge 11:06 Sex. [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 11:08 Sorry, I did a bit of Rick Mayall there.

Alex Partridge 11:10 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 11:10 Ah.

Paul Whitehouse 11:13 Ah.

Alex Partridge 11:13 You, you said Paul was devil's advocate sometimes. Are you entirely-

Paul Whitehouse 11:17 Yeah, I have been a bit already today.

Alex Partridge 11:19 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 11:19 Now I'm, I'm calling you both out saying, you know, it's, it's, you've overcome your problems, and, and I bet you both celebrate it, actually, having the condition, not disorder, a bit. Don't you?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 11:33 But it really is dependent upon the protective factors in that child's or adult's life, you know, coupled with an inner resilience, and unfortunately, ADHD impacts children living in poverty more than any group. Now, what resources have they got? Not many at all. They go to school. They're mislabeled as naughty, challenging, oppositional, defiant, you know, that school to prison pipeline thriving, thanks to- ... the Department for Education, [laughs] but let me not go there. So the, you know, you, while it's brilliant to celebrate differences, we're not enabled or encouraged to.

Alex Partridge 12:12 Mm.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 12:12 Difference is bad. You must conform, and if you fail to, then there are consequences, and, and that's the education system all over.

Alex Partridge 12:22 Is there a lot of ADHD in the comedy community?

Paul Whitehouse 12:25 Um, there seems to be, [laughs] yeah. Um, I think it was, uh, Dominic Lawson, uh, called it attention-seeking disorder, which is good coming from journalist, but- [laughs]

Alex Partridge 12:37 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 12:37 With his picture by his column there.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 12:39 Mm.

Paul Whitehouse 12:39 Anyway, I sort of know what he means because we [laughs] we went to a comedy show recently, and 5 out of the 10 people at this open mic thing, a couple of my friends were doing their first... Well, one was doing his first performance as a comedian, and half of them came on, came on the stage and went, "Hi, good evening. I've got ADHD." [laughs] After about four, I was like, "Uh, come on." You know, "You might well have," but it, it felt like a sort of confessional, you know. And I... Look, I, when I was saying this the other day to, um, uh, promote a friend of mine who does, does all our live stuff, he went, "Well, Fast Show was probably tailor-made for ADHD." And of course I look back at it and think-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 13:26 Yeah

Paul Whitehouse 13:26 ... blimey, it was really. That's exactly what it is. Bang, bang, bang. You're off, gone, all over the place, you know. In a, in a very-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 13:35 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 13:35 ... sort of celebratory way, you know, we're... But a- again, I would say everyone involved in that was, and there were a lot of us, you know, we were-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 13:43 There was a lot of addiction, wasn't there?

Paul Whitehouse 13:45 Yeah, but we don't wanna go down that road.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 13:47 And ADHD.

Alex Partridge 13:47 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 13:47 No, but, no, but I mean-

Paul Whitehouse 13:48 Yeah

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 13:48 ... in terms of the folks that were-

Paul Whitehouse 13:49 Yeah, there is, but I didn't, I didn't wanna pick up on, on, on what you said there, Alex, about addiction, because that's for the people-

Alex Partridge 13:55 Mm, right

Paul Whitehouse 13:55 ... involved to talk about, and... But yes, that's true. But also there were people from very different backgrounds with very different mentalities and attitudes to life, but we were all engaged in the, in the, in the project, and had... You know, we all thought that's exactly how it should be. So I don't think all of us were ADHD, [laughs] but we all embraced the idea. And, and now I suppose if you look at comedy now, we watch, apart from sitcoms, we usually share little gifs, memes, clips, TikTok, YouTube, and it's all short, sharp bits that we send to each other, which is kind of what we were doing on The Fast Show. And so, you know, the mobile phone, I think, has made everyone [laughs] ADHD. I honestly think that that, that is a, a developmental turning point in human history, the personal computer, mo- smartphone, you know, that little group, grouped together-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:02 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 15:02 ... technology has made us all a bit like that. Um-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:06 You know, there's animal evidence-

Alex Partridge 15:07 Mm

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:07 ... demonstrating, so.

Alex Partridge 15:10 Do you think Paul's got ADHD?

Paul Whitehouse 15:12 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:12 Yes.

Alex Partridge 15:14 What makes you think Paul's got ADHD?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:17 Like, he's got a rocket up his ass all the time, but he'll deny it.

Paul Whitehouse 15:21 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:22 And he'll do the humming to soothe his nervous system. He's got tics.

Paul Whitehouse 15:28 No, I haven't got tics.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:29 Yes, you have. You're always licking your lips.

Paul Whitehouse 15:31 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:34 Like a frog, and I don't mean-

Paul Whitehouse 15:36 There we go

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:36 ... like that little one. Like, that is a-

Paul Whitehouse 15:38 All right.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:38 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 15:41 Um, yeah, I sing a lot, but that's... I don't know.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:43 No, you don't sing. You do a-

Paul Whitehouse 15:45 I don't

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:45 ... a guttural hum, and it's to soothe your nervous system.

Alex Partridge 15:49 You probably hate the word stimming, Paul.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:51 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 15:51 It's the, what the community would call-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 15:53 Yeah

Alex Partridge 15:53 ... that type of behavior, doing a, like a repetitive action to-

Paul Whitehouse 15:57 Okay. So my dad used to whistle a lot, milkman whistle, you know. I whistle. I... What, why is that, what is that? Why are you attaching, uh, a label and set of behaviors to something that's as timeless as that? Or singing or humming?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 16:16 It's not singing, though. It's a hum.

Paul Whitehouse 16:18 [hums]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 16:19 You do it in moments of stress and frustration.

Paul Whitehouse 16:22 I do it in moments of joy as well. I, like-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 16:24 I've never seen that.

Paul Whitehouse 16:26 You're joking. I sing all the time.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 16:28 No, but I'm not on about singing.

Paul Whitehouse 16:29 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 16:32 Do you think you've got ADHD?

Paul Whitehouse 16:34 Possibly, but if I have, I, I don't really care.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 16:37 And Alex, there's the caffeine of course.

Paul Whitehouse 16:39 What?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 16:39 He'll have, like, his-

Paul Whitehouse 16:40 Wait a minute

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 16:40 ... triple-

Paul Whitehouse 16:41 I was answering the question

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 16:42 ... espressos, and then he'll be good for a nap like a typical ADHDer.

Paul Whitehouse 16:47 Yeah, I don't-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 16:47 And, like, slant-

Paul Whitehouse 16:48 ... go straight out, but I can drink a cup of coffee and it do- Well, it certainly doesn't, you know, people go, "Oh, you'll be, you know, getting the shakes." I don't get that. And yeah, I can, uh-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 16:58 And he's a coffee addict.

Paul Whitehouse 17:00 Yeah. So 75% of the known world, I think.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 17:05 Yeah. Well, there are many ADHDers in there.

Paul Whitehouse 17:07 Yeah. All right. So therefore it becomes a redundant label in a way.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 17:10 It's not a redundant label.

Paul Whitehouse 17:11 Well, you don't like it yourself.

Alex Partridge 17:13 You-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 17:13 I don't like disorder, but it-

Paul Whitehouse 17:14 You don't like deficit either.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 17:16 No, 'cause we're not deficit.

Paul Whitehouse 17:17 So it's a redundant label to-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 17:17 We're, we're ample. We're abundant.

Alex Partridge 17:20 It's like a, a executive function deficit, is we've got a lot of attention. We just struggle where to put it sometimes.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 17:26 Yeah. But essentially, and I'm glad I, it was confirmed in various publications and papers, ADHD is a difficulty in self-regulating. That has to come before the executive functioning difficulty.

Paul Whitehouse 17:42 Okay. Well, then I'm calling it, 'cause I'm brilliant at self-regulation. I really am. I'm calm all the time. I never lose my temper.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 17:52 Yeah, but imploding-

Paul Whitehouse 17:53 I never flip my lid

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 17:53 ... isn't the same as being calm all the time.

Paul Whitehouse 17:55 Never what? Sorry.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 17:56 Im- imploding isn't the same as being calm all the time.

Paul Whitehouse 18:00 No, but you said it's a, it's a, a, a func- a lack of ability to self-regulate.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 18:07 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 18:07 And I don't have that. I'll give you the others that I'm, I could, you could describe me as slightly hyperactive, but, um, I, I'm very good at self-regulation. I am a very calm person, aren't I?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 18:24 But you know it's a matter of life or death with you, isn't it? 'Cause of your heart, like.

Paul Whitehouse 18:29 No, I've, I don't think I've ever lost my temper and got angry and, you know.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 18:33 This is why he's good for me in that sense, because he will-

Paul Whitehouse 18:36 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 18:37 ... he will neutralize, isn't it?

Paul Whitehouse 18:40 [laughs] I don't know. But I don't... So if you're saying that I show some symptoms of ADHD-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 18:49 You do, yes

Paul Whitehouse 18:49 ... yeah, m- well, possibly, yeah, but the big one surely is that, you're saying. Is that not correct?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 18:56 Yeah, but it manifests-

Paul Whitehouse 18:57 But I don't think it ne-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 18:58 ... in each person differently. But-

Paul Whitehouse 18:59 Yeah, I don't think you feel ... you-

Alex Partridge 19:00 Well, hyperactivity for me and many others doesn't necessarily have to be physical.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 19:04 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 19:04 It can be internalized.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 19:06 Yeah, that's right.

Alex Partridge 19:06 I don't... Are you, are you an anxious person at all?

Paul Whitehouse 19:09 No, I don't think I'm unduly anxious, no. But I do, uh, I don't sleep very well, and when I wake up, I'll have, like many people, obviously, I have a lot of thoughts going through my mind that I have to try and suppress, or... I suppose they'll be my moments of most anxiety, you know. But I've, I've noticed recently, I have another thing happening, which is slightly irritating and strange is I, while simultaneously as having these thoughts, I'll have a song going in my mind. That's strange. [laughs] But you know, if you, if you wanna put me in the ADHD camp, I don't really care, because that's absolutely fine, but I, I don't, you don't like the definition that you both use of it, and I understand that. And also, I, there are certain elements of it that don't, certainly have not held me back if indeed I suffer from it.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 20:10 Yeah, they've-

Alex Partridge 20:11 Hmm

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 20:11 ... made you who you are and achieve what you've achieved.

Alex Partridge 20:15 Would you be interested in going for an assessment?

Paul Whitehouse 20:18 Um, kind of, yes, but kind of no really. What, what would be the point? Going for an assessment for a term that two people who wholeheartedly know that they are ADHD but don't a- don't appreciate the, the, the definition. But what, in a way, what would be the point? And also, I do, I do very well with my ADHD.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 20:43 He thinks he's great enough.

Paul Whitehouse 20:45 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 20:46 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 20:46 That's the issue.

Paul Whitehouse 20:46 No, I do. I'll c- well, I c- I'm allowed to be confident at, at my point in life, you know, about my behavior. I've come... You know, obviously I do some things wrong. Christ, I'm not an angel, but, um, and I'm certainly prepared to, uh, acknowledge that I, you know, I've done things and do things that are probably slightly odd, but so what?

Alex Partridge 21:11 What sort of things do you think are odd?

Paul Whitehouse 21:14 Um, well, I just told you. I wake up in the morning with a, a song going in my mind, and simultaneously a, a, a thought process. But maybe that helps fuel my comedy, so why would I... You know, it's swings and roundabouts to an extent, isn't it? There's some, some things, you know, yeah, that are difficult in life, and other things aren't. I'm, as I say, I'm re- relatively calm in moments of crisis, and you're very good in a real crisis, actually.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 21:44 Yeah, but that's a typical-

Alex Partridge 21:45 Hmm

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 21:45 ... ADHD-er, isn't it? You know, a major crisis, we're great, but the slightest, little trivial-

Paul Whitehouse 21:51 Hmm

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 21:51 ... I'll go, I'll go, yeah, ballistic.

Paul Whitehouse 21:55 Well, I wonder where road rage fits [laughs] fits in.

Alex Partridge 21:59 What, what are you both like on the road?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 22:02 I c- can't drive, so I've-

Paul Whitehouse 22:04 Oh, so you just shout at people when I drive.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 22:06 I do. I do. I shout all sorts.

Paul Whitehouse 22:07 It's like, "No, don't." [laughs] We get killed here.

Alex Partridge 22:11 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 22:13 Yeah, I can't even repeat what-

Paul Whitehouse 22:14 Um, I, I am pretty good. I sort of internalize it, or I, I have my little rant, you know, within. I know, you s- s- You know. That is one place where you can't, you have to self-regulate, don't you?

Alex Partridge 22:28 You start humming?

Paul Whitehouse 22:29 I sing. I told you, I sing. I sing way more than I hum or I whistle.

Alex Partridge 22:35 Do you think the singing is a stim?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 22:37 I think the humming feels more like a stim to me. The, the cab driver today, he does it. Did you clock him?

Paul Whitehouse 22:44 I heard him, yeah. He, he-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 22:45 It were the, "Hmm."

Paul Whitehouse 22:46 Yes, bec- he was humming along to the song.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 22:48 He really does not hum along to the song. He doesn't know the songs. He's a very old C-

Paul Whitehouse 22:53 What's that Kings of Leon song that you didn't like? He-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 22:55 ... Sex on Fire.

Alex Partridge 22:56 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 22:58 What a horrible title, that.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 22:59 I know. It's gross.

Paul Whitehouse 22:59 And he was humming along to... I s- t-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 23:01 He... Alex, please, I beg you, I'm gonna record him next time. He does not hum along to any song. He doesn't know these songs.

Paul Whitehouse 23:07 He might know-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 23:08 Barely speaks any English

Paul Whitehouse 23:08 ... he might, he might certainly have been most days doing that, but today he was trying to hum along to the Kings of Leon.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 23:15 I've known him for years, man. He's a Turkish Cypriot. He doesn't really have a grasp of the English language. He just goes, "Hmm."

Paul Whitehouse 23:22 Yeah, I really don't do that.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 23:23 And then he nods his head.

Paul Whitehouse 23:24 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 23:26 Your relationship fascinates me. I interviewed a leading therapist called Ka- Karen Doherty, amazing lady, specializes in neurodivergent relationships, and she says the biggest issue she sees with her clients is RSD, rejection sensitivity dysphoria.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 23:43 Hmm.

Alex Partridge 23:43 It's a out of proportion response to a criticism-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 23:47 It is me

Alex Partridge 23:47 ... real or perceived.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 23:49 Yep.

Alex Partridge 23:49 Do you relate to that at all in your relationship?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 23:52 It's funny, 'cause I was thinking about that the other day. I often say to him, "What's your problem? Like, what have I done?" He's like, "What? I've, you have... Nothing. What, like, where's that come from?" I'm like, "No, but I can tell, like, y- the, y- your tone has changed." Don't I?

Paul Whitehouse 24:08 Uh, yeah. [laughs] I don't really wanna go into this. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 24:13 Fair enough. But yeah, I, I, it's apparent. I try and rein it in, but

Paul Whitehouse 24:19 You're quick to anger. Let's, uh, y- aren't you? Let's-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 24:22 Yes. [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 24:23 ... not beat about the bush.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 24:24 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 24:24 As I, I've said to, you know, like M- Mina could walk down the road, less so of late, I have to say. You are much better than come back having had three arguments, you know, with people and you say-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 24:38 That's not me, though. We're just sensitive to our surroundings, but again-

Paul Whitehouse 24:42 I know, but you see, it's almost like you're hyper sensitive to your surroundings.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 24:46 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 24:46 So you're picking up on a perceived insult. It's not really-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 24:50 It's never perceived incorrectly, though.

Paul Whitehouse 24:53 Well, but most people would just walk past and it wouldn't-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 24:55 I can't, but why would you be nasty to me? I haven't done anything to you. I'm gonna have to raise it.

Paul Whitehouse 24:59 Well, they're not necessarily being nasty to you is what I'm saying. It's a, it's that hyper awareness of, you know, like always re- You, you know... Well, you say it enough about the, your fight or flight upstairs downstairs brain-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 25:11 Yeah

Paul Whitehouse 25:11 ... which you talk about a lot. So what, what-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 25:13 Yeah, but I don't kick off, like if I'm sat here, I'm not gonna kick off at someone for no reason. I'm not-

Paul Whitehouse 25:19 I know-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 25:19 ... unhinged

Paul Whitehouse 25:19 ... but sometimes, as I say, you're, you pick up on something and it becomes a, an argument when perhaps it's best just left.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 25:28 Yeah, I can't, because if they're wrong or they've accused me of something, then I have to take it to the end.

Alex Partridge 25:36 What does taking it to the end look like? [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 25:37 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 25:41 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 25:41 Like...

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 25:42 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 25:42 Why do you think... 'Cause I do the same. Why do you think you react so badly, ex- explosively to perceived re- rejection?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 25:48 Because I'm always very polite to people, and it's authentic. I'm, I'm, I'm a nice guy. And when you're rude to me, I can't stand it, 'cause I haven't... What have I done? I don't deserve that treatment. I, I h- I can't stand it at all.

Alex Partridge 26:06 Is the criticism or rejection, is it as bad as you think it is in the moment? Or do you think it's a, a snap back to something that happened earlier on in your life?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 26:18 I mean, obviously, you know, I was never accepted by any member of my, uh, family, so I am aware of people's behaviors towards me and responses towards me. So, yeah, that-

Paul Whitehouse 26:35 I'll pi- Sorry, I was gonna pick up on something there

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 26:36 ... that would have a legacy, but it's not... Yes, sometimes it is disproportionate, and I fixate. Like, I can't shake it. It sticks in me. And it, and I try and talk myself down and, you know, intellectualize it, and it's very difficult for me to do it. Because if I set out being vindictive towards somebody, I can understand why they would behave a certain way, but when I'm not, I can't stand it. It really hurts me, and that hurt comes out as anger, but it's not... Because as we know, beneath anger there is always a sadness and a pain, so it's, it's that. Trying to get a rein on it.

Paul Whitehouse 27:19 See, it was... I thought was quite significant when we came in and there was silence, and you said, "Oh, no." What was it? You both talked about-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 27:28 No, he do- You said you don't like noise.

Alex Partridge 27:30 Oh, yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 27:31 You don't like noise.

Alex Partridge 27:31 It's like over- overstimulation.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 27:32 Yeah

Alex Partridge 27:32 ... sensory overload.

Paul Whitehouse 27:33 You love noise.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 27:34 I... As soon as I wake up, I've got the YouTube on. I've got the TV on. If I'm lucky, I'll have both on at the same time, but it, it, yeah, can't

Paul Whitehouse 27:45 So no, no, what I was gonna say-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 27:47 Lights on everywhere

Paul Whitehouse 27:47 ... well, uh, yeah, what I was gonna say is actually y- you don't like calm and quiet. I think there's a-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 27:53 No, I c- I don't.

Paul Whitehouse 27:53 No, so I think in terms of what might be a calm walk down the road, if somebody i- you know, sort of accidentally bumps into you, it's like, you know, bang. Because that's... Let me just finish quickly and you can pick holes in this. That's how you were brought up. That's what you saw nonstop, all the time. So actually, and you've even said it, you know, you've said before that sometimes you were waiting for the, the, the argument, the fight, the row to start, and it was like, "Ah."

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 28:23 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 28:23 So that I think-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 28:23 Because I was, like, on tenterhooks thinking, "Where's, when's it gonna kick off," you know? And I'd be hiding behind the sofa, and then he'd punch my mom and I'd go, "Oh, yeah."

Paul Whitehouse 28:31 And that's what I mean.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 28:32 You'd get a sick excitement because, "Oh, it's happening. At least I know where I, I stand."

Paul Whitehouse 28:38 But that's what, that's what I mean. That's what I mean.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 28:38 Yeah, that, that-

Paul Whitehouse 28:38 And I wonder if that the, that you can't exist very easily in calm. You need some-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 28:44 No, I can't exist in quiet and calm.

Paul Whitehouse 28:47 No, I know. There's-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 28:47 I'll go nuts. I will flip the flippity flip.

Alex Partridge 28:52 Are there any situations you've ex- you've witnessed, Paul, where Mina has acted dis- when you've thought, "That's disproportionate to what just happened"?

Paul Whitehouse 29:00 Yeah, look, a lot. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 29:02 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 29:04 A lot. [laughs] Anyway-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 29:05 Give us one example.

Paul Whitehouse 29:07 No, no, I'm not going to. But I think what I just alluded to there, that was a perfect example or of actually Mina needs some that kind of-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 29:21 I need to be stimulated

Paul Whitehouse 29:23 ... pa- Well, almost. Like, stuff going on all the time. It has to happen. And you can't sit in calm at all. I think you find it very difficult.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 29:33 I do find it.

Paul Whitehouse 29:34 Yeah.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 29:34 Thinking about it is making me itch and twitch.

Paul Whitehouse 29:37 Mm.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 29:37 But I still feel deeply anxious when I'm confronted with something negative, though. Like, I will avoid emails, I will avoid messages if I know that the content is gonna be challenging. I don't open emails sometimes. I, I don't respond to letters because they... You know, I get jarred. I, I can't handle it. So I don't like it, and I don't wanna be a cop-out and say, "But that's how I've been conditioned to behave," but it is very raw and real and physiologically ingrained.

Paul Whitehouse 30:13 So I'm gonna say something else again about you two, 'cause actually I should be, I should be questioning you two here-

Alex Partridge 30:19 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 30:19 ... 'cause I'm the normal one. [laughs] You des- you both have described very different states of being there and feeling ca- calm. You can't really feel calm unless there's some sort of stuff going on, unless you actually seek out that.

Alex Partridge 30:38 Mm.

Paul Whitehouse 30:38 Yet you're both ADHD.

Alex Partridge 30:40 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 30:40 So again, I'm coming back to the definition describes such a range of behaviors, but it's not really accurate at all. And no, not just the term disorder-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 30:54 Yeah, no, I know

Paul Whitehouse 30:54 ... or deficit, but it actually, we've just got a, a sort of narrow definition for a wide range of behaviors, and so we need to maybe look a bit more close 'cause you've, you've obviously passed the ADHD test. Mina's passed the ADHD test, but you both have-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 31:12 I've got top marks.

Alex Partridge 31:14 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 31:16 But, but you both display very different behavior, so h- how can that be?

Alex Partridge 31:21 Well, if you meet one person with ADHD, you've met one, and there are differences. We have, I'm sure we have loads of differences.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 31:27 Mm.

Alex Partridge 31:27 I'm sure we've also got lots of similarities. I'm very impulsive, other people aren't. I'm not very forgetful, other people are. I don't lose my car keys, lots of people with ADHD do. But the anxiety, I think, is the, is the commonality between all of us, that racing mind-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 31:43 Mm

Alex Partridge 31:43 ... whether that's internalized or h- externalized. So I think the hyperactivity is very, a prudent word.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 31:49 Mm.

Alex Partridge 31:49 Um, why do some people keep it h- internalized? Some people present very differently. That's often due to society, how they've, what they've been exposed to.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 31:58 Yeah, they have.

Alex Partridge 31:58 They've been told off-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 31:59 Mm

Alex Partridge 31:59 ... for misbehaving too much.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:00 Mm.

Alex Partridge 32:01 And they feel like they can't act how they want to act, so they keep it internalized, which is what I've certainly done all my life.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:06 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 32:06 We all have tremendous differences, but also-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:09 Mm

Alex Partridge 32:09 ... core similarities.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:11 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 32:11 And I think the anxiety is the-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:12 Mm

Alex Partridge 32:12 ... is the middle of the Venn diagram.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:13 Yeah, yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 32:13 Hyperactive anxiety condition. How about that as a, a better acronym?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:18 That's crap.

Paul Whitehouse 32:19 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 32:20 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:21 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 32:21 Come on.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:21 Doesn't capture the brilliance.

Alex Partridge 32:23 I, I agree. It needs a re-

Paul Whitehouse 32:25 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 32:25 I, I think ADHD is a, is a bad name. I think disorder's wrong. I think the hyp- I think it's, it should be a difference or a deficit of executive function. I think the disorder should be dropped. I think a lot of people think that.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:36 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 32:36 Mm.

Alex Partridge 32:36 Think that as well.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:36 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 32:37 That's-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:37 There's no evidence for it, and, and it still reigns supreme. It's really frustrating, and lazy on their behalf. Like, I just don't understand.

Paul Whitehouse 32:43 But it is la- it's just a lazy term. It's just in, you know, I know you'll probably-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:48 But it sticks

Paul Whitehouse 32:48 ... shoot me down here, but it's, that's semantics, isn't it, you know? And that can be changed, I think, 'cause there seems to be such a bush about ADHD-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:57 Yeah, but you're getting chil-

Paul Whitehouse 32:57 ... that probably will change soon

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 32:58 ... but children are being branded as ADHD, and they're being dosed up to the eyeballs when, in many cases, I'm gonna say, there is no real need for it. This is a lack of being co-regulated in early childhood. Again, you're saying it's about a deficit in exec functioning, but the core of that is being able to self-regulate. And when we understand how the brain is built bottom up, bottom up, you know, back to front, that limbic system cannot be bypassed. So when you've got the panic button, the brain's amygdala being hit so often as it is in an ADHD's brain, that, that just bypasses, that the executive functioning skills can't come online, and that's what we're faced with on a daily basis. And we get tripped up, and that button gets hit far too frequently because we haven't been co-regulated enough to be able to self-regulate, and then everything else follows.

Alex Partridge 33:55 How do you deal with your emotional dysregulation?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 33:58 I listen to soothing jazz.

Paul Whitehouse 34:01 Nice.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 34:02 Shut up. [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 34:03 I was doing a gag.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 34:04 Oh, sorry.

Alex Partridge 34:05 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 34:08 Um, I light scented candles. I do a lot of deep breathing, the walking.

Paul Whitehouse 34:10 All women like scented candles. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 34:13 Sexist. Um, the walking. The, the number one, how can I forget it? I'm at the gym every morning for three to five hours. I have to do it, or I, I'll, I will explode. That helps me to feel calm.

Alex Partridge 34:29 What are the positives of ADHD in your life?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 34:32 I love the ideas I come up with. Don't you think?

Paul Whitehouse 34:36 Yes, darling. No, I, no, you are. You're very, you ... This is why I, I, I do sort of take issue sometimes where when you say that you, you know, school for you was brilliant, was brilliant. You-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 34:50 It was mayhem

Paul Whitehouse 34:51 ... and you thro- you thrived, if that's a word.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 34:54 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 34:54 You throve, and you've done, you know, and you are very creative like that. Yeah, you, it certainly gives you, you know, your brain works very quickly like that, you know?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 35:06 I have a deep sense of injustice. I'm very supportive of others. I'm very loyal, passionate. Anything nice you wanna say about me at this point?

Paul Whitehouse 35:17 I just did. I just said that. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 35:23 I don't know. I, I wouldn't change it, though. I, I look at neurotypicals, and I, I don't understand them. I don't get how they function. [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 35:32 But you see, but you're asking people, you know, your work is about asking people to self-regulate so they can co-regulate.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 35:41 I don't ask them to.

Paul Whitehouse 35:42 To stop-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 35:43 I encourage them.

Paul Whitehouse 35:44 Yeah, yeah. I know.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 35:44 To show-

Paul Whitehouse 35:44 But you show them the model of the brain. You ask them to do it.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 35:47 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 35:47 But you find it very difficult to do it yourself.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 35:49 Of course I find it difficult-

Paul Whitehouse 35:51 So, but how, how-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 35:51 ... because my nervous system has been wired a certain way.

Paul Whitehouse 35:54 I know.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 35:54 I can't-

Paul Whitehouse 35:55 Well, I always say that about you, though. I always say your problem is more, I think, well, unless you want to-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:00 C-PTSD.

Paul Whitehouse 36:02 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:02 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 36:02 Large part.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:02 I, I, but the, but people do not look deep enough into that link between complex post-traumatic stress disorder and, and ADHD.

Paul Whitehouse 36:12 Right. So you, you think that... Well, I think-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:15 There is.

Paul Whitehouse 36:15 Yeah, yeah. No, I don't doubt it at all.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:16 I was reading a paper just yesterday. Absolutely, it can cause ADHD symptoms.

Paul Whitehouse 36:21 Mm.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:21 There's so much overlap, but it's poorly understood.

Paul Whitehouse 36:24 I think yours is, is very definitely rooted in that.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:28 I do.

Paul Whitehouse 36:28 You know, the fact that you're, as we just said, like, you can't- I'm really sitting calm

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:34 No

Paul Whitehouse 36:34 You know, you need that

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:35 Remembering in New Orleans-

Paul Whitehouse 36:36 You need the disorder

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:37 Yeah

Paul Whitehouse 36:38 You know? [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:38 But remember on-

Paul Whitehouse 36:38 To use that term in a perhaps a correct way. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:42 You said, d- didn't you, we were on that voodoo tour a few weeks ago in the New Orleans, New Orleans rather, and, and you said you can't stand still in a room for very long, can you? I started getting very anxious, like I was gonna have a panic attack, and I had to go out.

Paul Whitehouse 36:55 Mm.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 36:56 I just felt I'll get very jittery all of a sudden. I'll, I'll just need to exit.

Paul Whitehouse 37:01 You don't have these kind of problems, Alex, like Mine has e- explained. Well, you say you get anxiety, but-

Alex Partridge 37:08 Mm. Yeah. My, my social battery can run out incredibly quickly and unpredictably.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 37:13 I don't have one, boy. I avoid it at all costs.

Alex Partridge 37:16 I have to leave a party without saying goodbye a lot of the time.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 37:18 Yeah, I don't go to them anymore.

Alex Partridge 37:18 I just don't have it in me to... Just, it just, my battery just goes from-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 37:22 Yeah

Alex Partridge 37:22 ... 10 to zero-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 37:23 Yeah, yeah

Alex Partridge 37:23 ... instantly.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 37:24 Yeah, yeah.

Alex Partridge 37:24 It's almost quite... I al- I feel guilty afterwards 'cause I'm at home thinking, "Oh, my God. They're gonna think I'm rude."

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 37:28 Yeah, yeah.

Alex Partridge 37:29 I left without saying goodbye.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 37:30 I don't go in the first place.

Paul Whitehouse 37:31 It's called a French goodbye, isn't it? That's what I'm saying is you're not alone. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 37:37 For your list-

Paul Whitehouse 37:37 You, you don't go. Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 37:39 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 37:39 You don't go anywhere. That's my maxim. I, I'm trying to get off the ground for a long while. Before lockdown, don't go anywhere. There's really not much need. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 37:49 But it, it would trip me up a lot, I wanna say this as well, like, while I was still teaching at the time. I know, but still recently as well, I would pay for holidays with friends, I'd get really excited, I'd arrange to go out with them, and then I'll cancel last minute, I'll freak out. And one of them, you know, knew me for more than 20 years, and she sacked me off because of it, and I tried to explain. I caught up with her in COVID, uh, 'cause I felt, "I love you so much. Like, you really misunderstood. It's not out of vindictiveness. I, I f- you know, I froze. I couldn't bear the thought of being out of my house and not in my routine." That's another thing, I'm very rigidly wed to my routines 'cause they give me a sense-

Paul Whitehouse 38:32 But can't, but-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 38:32 Can I finish?

Paul Whitehouse 38:33 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 38:33 'Cause I'll forget it. Not as I'm being rude. So I was like, "Please, look, it's anxiety. You know, the therapist told me, and, and now I just need to, you know, keep it small and, and not make these promises. It wasn't out of rudeness." And, you know, she kind of forgave me, but not really. And I just ... After a year or two of processing it, my sadness turned to a deep anger because even at that point, I still didn't have the ADHD diagnosis, and I'm, I'm quite sure it's also autism, but that's another story for another day. But I just felt, "How dare you? Like, you've known me for over two decades. I'm here begging you for your friendship and understanding." I was in tears. I couldn't sleep because of it. But she wasn't the only one, so I did it to a friend, and we were gonna go to France. Again, I had a meltdown, Alex. I couldn't cope with the prospect of being out of my home. She was like, "Don't worry about it." She said, "But next time, can we just do a spa in England?" I'm like, "Yeah, brilliant. Thank you." So hopefully you've got a good support network around you that can enable you to, to be yourself and not overpromise and underdeliver, and I, I never had that, and I'm, I'm angry about that, I suppose. So now I just find it safer to stay away from people and not make meaningful connections, and certainly not socialize at all.

Paul Whitehouse 39:55 But are you... It's good that you've managed to sort of try and explain that, but do you understand for that other person what, you know, what has gone into them getting to the airport?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 40:09 They didn't go to the airport.

Paul Whitehouse 40:10 Oh.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 40:12 No.

Paul Whitehouse 40:13 Oh, all right. But getting ready and thinking they're about to-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 40:15 That was someone else.

Alex Partridge 40:17 And then-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 40:17 That was someone else.

Paul Whitehouse 40:17 [laughs] Oh.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 40:17 Yeah, um-

Paul Whitehouse 40:17 That was another one, right? [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 40:19 Yeah. But again, she was very understanding.

Paul Whitehouse 40:21 Right.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 40:22 You know? And, uh, we were both in tears on the phone, and it really made me feel bad. It's not intentional, and I gear myself up. I make notes about the positives of getting out of the house and, and seeing new sights, but I can't because I'm very regimented down to a T in terms of what, what I, what I eat, you know, what I don't. I pack food when we go on holiday. I mean, I'm a nightmare. I'm, I'm low-maintenance.

Paul Whitehouse 40:47 No, you're not, dear.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 40:48 Actually, I'm not.

Paul Whitehouse 40:49 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 40:50 I, no, I'm not. I'm great.

Paul Whitehouse 40:52 You just said it. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 40:53 No, I don't know. I just like things very simple and plain, and if I can't get them, I freak out.

Alex Partridge 40:59 What about you, Paul? Do you find it easy to maintain friendships?

Paul Whitehouse 41:01 Yeah, I've got loads of friends I've had for decades. [laughs] I, I'm very, uh, I, I'm very easygoing with people. I find it very easy to get on. Sometimes I annoy myself. [laughs] I, I'm very open-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 41:14 You're so great.

Paul Whitehouse 41:14 Yeah. [laughs] No, not I'm so great. No, I actually, you know, sort of engage with people when, you know, sort of just, "Don't bother. You haven't got time." You know what I mean? I'm, I'm ... Perhaps I'm a little bit less so as I, as I get older, I can manage my time a bit better but, no, I've got a lot of friends that I've had since I was a kid. Um, I've people from my school, one or two, um, from my 20s, and people that I've worked with over the years, and yeah, I, I, I, I, I find it easy. But having said that, I really like my own time. I'm very at ease on my own, very comfortable. So, uh, um, I do share your and Mine's, um, uh, desire to get out of a social situation pretty quick. I don't really like hanging... Well, I mean, you'll understand this is, as a drink. I'm not, uh, NA. Uh, I like a drink, but I don't really understand. I mean, maybe when I was young, I would go to a party and I'd drink. I, I can't do it. But, you know, once you've had two or three, what, what's the point? I don't get it. So I, I like to get out of those situations at that point. I don't want any more than that but Yeah, I suppose I'm less sociable as I'm older, but I find it, I find it easy

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 42:43 Sounded like Ronnie Birkin then.

Paul Whitehouse 42:44 I, uh... [laughs]

Alex Partridge 42:47 Where do you think you get your creativity and sense of humor from?

Paul Whitehouse 42:51 Um, well, I don't know, my parents were, uh, both very, uh... They both sang, so music was always a big thing. Um, and, uh, my mom always thought, 'cause I was born in the Rhondda Valley in Wales. Um, but we left there when I was four and moved to North London, and so my accent changed. I became a Cockney within five weeks. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 43:18 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 43:19 So I went to, uh, I went to the school on the local estate. It was a pretty tough old school, and so within five weeks I went from talking like that, you know, to, I, I came out and I went, "Mom, I wanna go to South End."

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 43:34 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 43:34 She was like, [gasps] you know, "This monstrous little Cockney has just walked in."

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 43:40 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 43:40 And, and she always, she's... And so then when we'd go back to visit family in the Rhondda, I would do the Welsh accent, you know, and swap it, and she always thought maybe that was a... Anyway, it facilitated me doing lots of different voices and, and I met people who were very funny along the way. People like Harry Enfield, my old, old mate from Hackney Council where I work. Danny Wiseman. Monty Python were a big influence on my generation. You know, they were sort of almost a co- And Pe- Peter Cook, Dudley Moore, and it was almost a sort of combination of music and comedy and it felt the, the two worlds sort of clashed. And, um, and then, um, Vic and Bob as well, that, they, they were a bit of a... We were fans of theirs, you know. We, we knew them sort of vaguely, and we used to go and see them, and they were quite an influence in a way as well. Even though we were contemporaries, there was something about them that gave me, uh, confidence, you know, 'cause I'd, I'd get up on stage and sing, but I'd never done... I never did stand-up or anything like that. Can't imagine anything worse, going into a room s- [laughs] full of strangers and going, "Love me."

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 44:50 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 44:51 You know? [laughs] Terrible. I let Harry do all the dirty work. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 44:56 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 44:56 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 44:56 Yeah, so I don't know. I sort of, uh, I got in through writing for Harry and coming up with ideas and, and I would say, yeah, Monty Python were something that really appealed to me. They're just a bunch of hyperactive performers-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 45:11 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 45:11 ... if ever there were any, weren't they? Uh, yeah, but there is this link, isn't there, between certainly hyperactivity and comedy-

Alex Partridge 45:19 Mm.

Paul Whitehouse 45:19 And-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 45:20 Creativity

Paul Whitehouse 45:21 ... and, yeah, so I don't know if... Certainly I know people who you would say, well, they probably are ADHD, and they're in comedy and i- and it, they're... It's not a bad fit. [laughs] Um-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 45:37 Lee Evans. Love him.

Paul Whitehouse 45:38 Yeah, Lee Evans is quite-

Alex Partridge 45:40 Is Lee Evans ADHD?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 45:41 No, I'm saying he must be, surely.

Paul Whitehouse 45:44 I see. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 45:45 I've never seen anything like him.

Paul Whitehouse 45:46 No, I, I don't really know Lee very well. I, I've only met him a couple of times. But, um, certainly other people in comedy, yeah, you, you... There seems to be a-

Alex Partridge 45:54 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 45:54 ... a loose fit there. Not everyone, but as I say, when I went to this comedy show, we went to the show, half of them identified as, as, uh-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 46:04 Seems like more-

Paul Whitehouse 46:05 Yeah

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 46:05 ... than half, man.

Alex Partridge 46:05 Mm.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 46:06 They were one after the other.

Paul Whitehouse 46:07 [laughs] I know, even you were going-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 46:08 I know. I was like, "All right."

Paul Whitehouse 46:09 "God."

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 46:09 [laughs] Overload.

Paul Whitehouse 46:11 Yeah. It was funny. Mm.

Alex Partridge 46:13 Do, do you ever notice comedians somehow sometimes act in a different way on stage than they do off stage?

Paul Whitehouse 46:22 Yeah, I mean, it's a performance, isn't it? You know, it's, um... You, you either develop a persona like Kenneth Williams, you know, and you, you, you live that or a version of that the whole time, so that when you're on stage, you're basically, you've already invented your persona-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 46:39 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 46:39 ... and you've lived it, so you bring that to it. Or people like Harry and me, we do char- Simon Day, you know, we do characters and we obviously, and we inhabit those, which gives you, I don't know, [laughs] 100 different lives, you know? Probably more exciting than, than the one you actually live. You mentioned Ronnie Birkin, you know.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 47:01 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 47:01 He was a p- perfect character for inventing a life that you, you couldn't really keep track of, but it was very ro- romantic-

Alex Partridge 47:09 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 47:09 ... you know, and I mean that in the-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 47:12 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 47:12 ... you know, in the, the proper term romantic, not lovey-dovey. I mean, you know, he, he'd be trapped under the ice.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 47:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 47:18 You know, um, or you know, she had a very long neck.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 47:21 Mm-hmm. [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 47:22 You know, Cairo. [gasps] And, you know, with three words you've got a, a weird story-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 47:28 Yeah, yeah

Paul Whitehouse 47:28 ... you can link however you want.

Alex Partridge 47:30 Mm.

Paul Whitehouse 47:30 But are you, are we different on stage? Yeah, of course. Yeah, I mean, funnily enough, I, I suppose Bob and I have come the closest to being ourselves in Gone Fishing, because it came out of our real life very much sitting on a riverbank. Wonder is, is, is fishing, uh... Can that, can you put ADHD anywhere near that? [laughs]

Alex Partridge 47:52 I don't think so.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 47:52 We'll find a way.

Paul Whitehouse 47:53 It's the antithesis, surely. [laughs] And maybe that is, that's one of the thing that grounds me and always has. And my dad, I always went fishing with my dad, you know, so we had a very close bond from very early on, and it was on the riverbank. It's grounding in many ways, that. So, you know, I, I don't underestimate the importance-

Alex Partridge 48:15 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 48:15 ... of fishing and then what it's been to me. And so Bob and I, when we, you know, convene and meet on the riverbank, we don't have a script. So it's about as close, I suppose... We are making a TV show, you know. We are conscious of that, although a lot of the time we'd rather just fish-

Alex Partridge 48:33 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 48:33 ... you know, not go and film the bits that we have to film, but- I suppose it's so, I s- there's always a bit of, not artifice, because like I say, we don't have a script, and we decide where we go and perhaps what a, a subject or a theme might be. But we record tons of material-

Alex Partridge 48:51 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 48:51 ... and then we ruthlessly edit it down, you know, to half an hour. So that's about the closest to being yourself, I suppose, that I've ever been in a show.

Alex Partridge 49:02 Many people with neurodivergent conditions, including ADHD, they've spent their whole life feeling different and like they don't fit in, and they gravitate towards situations and sometimes professions that gives them an opportunity to mask and to act out a different character to what they are because they intrinsically feel broken. Do you think that might be why a lot of comedians are raising, waving the ADHD flag now?

Paul Whitehouse 49:30 Um, I'm sure. I, I think you, uh, you, um, said that very eloquently. Well done.

Alex Partridge 49:36 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 49:36 Well done, Alex. [laughs] You see? You're brilliant. Celebrate it.

Alex Partridge 49:42 That's nice.

Paul Whitehouse 49:42 No, I think, I think, I think you're absolutely right. I'm sure it's, uh, it's a way of masking. Yeah, well, what else compels people to get up on stage, [laughs] you know? I always say on a Tuesday night in Hull, but that's not fair on Hull-

Alex Partridge 49:56 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 49:56 ... or Tuesdays for that matter. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 49:58 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 49:59 I've got, I've got nothing against Tuesdays, you know, and say to a room of strangers, "Basically love me," you know? And why, why-

Alex Partridge 50:08 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 50:08 ... why would you? It's strange. I, I get it more with music. I, I, I do, and perhaps I shouldn't, but-

Alex Partridge 50:15 Mm.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 50:15 I'd say it would come more out of an early childhood trauma than... Mind you, being an undiagnosed ADHD, it might be traumatic, but you know, that need of, "I need love-

Paul Whitehouse 50:25 Possibly, yeah

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 50:25 ... love me, adore me."

Paul Whitehouse 50:26 Yeah.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 50:27 If it's been lacking.

Alex Partridge 50:29 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 50:30 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 50:30 Do you relate at all to the concept of masking?

Paul Whitehouse 50:32 Masking anxiety by presenting another persona?

Alex Partridge 50:36 Mm.

Paul Whitehouse 50:37 Absolutely. Yeah, of course. I totally understand that, yeah, and I, I see why, um... Well, I mean, you could question the whole acting profession really, couldn't you? You know, that, that we, our need. But it, again, it's a universal need almost, isn't it? You know, l- almost everybody likes to get up and do a song or do something you like to perform. You used to-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:05 Me?

Paul Whitehouse 51:05 Well, you used to do your talks, and it was-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:07 Oh

Paul Whitehouse 51:07 ... like a performance. You know, your, those talks that you did.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:11 What? Uh.

Paul Whitehouse 51:12 Your talks.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:13 Which, what?

Paul Whitehouse 51:13 Funzoon, those things.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:14 Oh, right. Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 51:15 That was much more of a-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:15 I know, and then I've just let the anxiety take over, and I don't do that.

Paul Whitehouse 51:18 Mm.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:18 I've said to you I don't do in person much anymore. I just let the anxiety-

Paul Whitehouse 51:23 Mm. Mm

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:23 ... lead,

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:24 and I shouldn't, but...

Alex Partridge 51:25 Let's talk about your ADHD item. I ask-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:27 Yeah

Alex Partridge 51:28 ... all my guests to tell me an item that most represents ADHD in their life, and-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:32 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 51:32 ... maybe not surprisingly, [laughs] you've said-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:35 Hey

Paul Whitehouse 51:35 Mr. Dynamite. Tee hee

Alex Partridge 51:36 ... I'll pass this to you.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:38 Oh, I love it.

Alex Partridge 51:39 And-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:39 Oh

Alex Partridge 51:39 ... maybe, we might have already covered it-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:40 I'll take you, Mr. Dynamite

Alex Partridge 51:40 ... but explain why dynamite represents ADHD in your life.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:43 Yeah. You've alluded to it earlier on because I can go from zero to a billion in milliseconds. Prompted, of course.

Paul Whitehouse 51:53 I was-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:53 Never, never unprompted

Paul Whitehouse 51:53 ... so, you know, this is true. That's a very act because I always think with you and your mum-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 51:58 Oh, Lord

Paul Whitehouse 51:58 ... they go from nought to fury within-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:00 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 52:01 ... five seconds.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:02 Yeah, man.

Paul Whitehouse 52:02 Yeah.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:02 That's dangerous-

Paul Whitehouse 52:03 Yeah

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:03 ... stuff.

Paul Whitehouse 52:04 Yeah. But-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:05 Yeah

Paul Whitehouse 52:05 ... yeah, that's, it's very, uh-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:07 It's explosive.

Paul Whitehouse 52:07 It's, yeah, and, uh, very nicely made.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:10 I'm having it.

Alex Partridge 52:11 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 52:11 Mm.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:12 If he said no, I was gonna nick it anyway.

Paul Whitehouse 52:13 I knew you, you should nick it anyway. Yeah.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:15 [laughs] I do. If it ain't nailed down, Alex-

Paul Whitehouse 52:17 Mm

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:17 ... it's ours.

Alex Partridge 52:18 Earlier, you mentioned a, um, strong sense of injustice.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:22 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 52:22 Do you think that's a trait of ADHD?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:24 Apparently, it is, right? But again, I wonder how much of it is that and how much of it is the early childhood trauma. I just can't stand by and watch crap things happen to people. I will get stuck in. Sadly, when it's me, though, no one wants to help me, but, you know.

Paul Whitehouse 52:41 I tell you what you're very good at-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 52:43 Yeah

Paul Whitehouse 52:43 ... actually, which is extraordinary really. If, never mind like somebody, you know, saying something and a skirt, and you, like, respond perhaps disproportionately to, what you're really good at is if Mine sees a mother with a child, and it's, you know, the mother is in danger of gonna give the child a clump, she's straight in. Straight in, but she does, what she does is very clever 'cause sh- she says she defuses the situation, which is-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 53:16 Yeah

Paul Whitehouse 53:16 ... [laughs] extraordinary-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 53:17 Bomb diffuser

Paul Whitehouse 53:18 ... and very unlike you really.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 53:19 Yeah. I know.

Paul Whitehouse 53:19 Because you go in, and you do... Perhaps you should think about it next time 'cause what you do very cleverly is you say to the mother, "Are you okay? Do you need help?" And it immediately disarms-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 53:33 Yeah

Paul Whitehouse 53:33 ... the mother, stops her anger, and it's invariably a mother.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 53:38 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 53:38 You know? Um, and the situation can then be talked about and resolved. Uh, that is a, that's, you're actually doing something that's probably against type in a way, but because you're not scared of a, a row-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 53:55 Mm

Paul Whitehouse 53:55 ... you know, it means you'll go straight in. But it's very good to disarm the mother rather than say, "Don't hit that kid-"

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 54:02 Crit- criticize, yeah

Paul Whitehouse 54:02 ... "'cause I've done that before," and all they do is go-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 54:04 Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 54:05 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 54:05 Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 54:08 No.

Alex Partridge 54:08 Let's do the washing machine of woes 'cause I think that'll be quite interesting this week. Every week I ask my ADHD community to send me their woes, and I put it in the washing machine of woes, and we'll see what is in there this week.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 54:20 Oh, I thought I was gonna give you my woe.

Alex Partridge 54:23 Oh, no, it comes from the community.

Paul Whitehouse 54:24 Oh, I did as well. Now you're-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 54:25 Oh, you see, and I was ready to moan, boy

Paul Whitehouse 54:27 ... you'll have to, you'll have to become part of the community-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 54:30 I was ready to moan and groan

Paul Whitehouse 54:30 ... and send in your own ones.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 54:32 Ah, I will.

Paul Whitehouse 54:33 Blimey, you'll never hear the end of it now, mate.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 54:34 [laughs] Dear Uncle Alex.

Alex Partridge 54:36 [laughs] I'll read this one and see what you think. Um- I have been diagnosed with ADHD very recently, and I'm 45. My husband doesn't believe in ADHD, and it's causing arguments because he thinks I'm just being clumsy. What's the best way of explaining it to him and getting him to understand?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 54:53 I would try to explain that we process things differently to the typical person, and we can process them slower, far slower than the typical person, and that it really is difficult to manage the simplest of tasks. And even if he doesn't believe it, it's very real, and it, it's horrible to feel stupid yourself, and a bit of understanding can go a very long way, is how I'd start it. Because it is. It's the not having any sense of direction. It's the forgetfulness. It's not understanding a maybe one or two-step instruction. I mean, I drive him nuts with it. Yeah, that bit of understanding can go a long way. I don't know what it would take to make him understand. What do you reckon?

Paul Whitehouse 55:51 I, I don't know, but maybe you... she could try disarming him a bit. She could say, "I'm not using this as a get out of jail card, my ADHD," because I'm not a skeptic, I'm not. I totally understand it, but there are certain behaviors you think, "Okay, why are you doing that? You don't always do that." You know, you, you... There are certain things you do very well that require a lot of work, planning, intelligence, and you manage them, and then you can't do this, or you know. So I think if she c- if she could say to him, "Look, I'm not using this as a, you know, an excuse for my behavior," um-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 56:31 And to show him YouTube videos. Sorry to interject

Paul Whitehouse 56:33 No, no, I need all the help [laughs] I can get. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 56:37 No, him. For her to show him.

Paul Whitehouse 56:39 Yeah.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 56:40 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 56:40 Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree.

Paul Whitehouse 56:41 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 56:41 It is an explanation, but not always an excuse.

Paul Whitehouse 56:45 Hmm.

Alex Partridge 56:45 I think you have to take responsibility for-

Paul Whitehouse 56:47 Yes, I th- I think if she says-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 56:48 And-

Paul Whitehouse 56:48 ... "I understand it must..." And also say, "I know this must be frustrating for you, my behavior." Because it is at times. You know, it is.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 56:57 It, yeah, pisses... Sorry.

Paul Whitehouse 56:58 No.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 56:58 U- upsets us as well. Another thing is, well done to her for getting the diagnosis and, and she could also point out, "But I've got the diagnosis now. Now I understand more. Maybe you can help me to try and curb some of these behaviors," because that's one thing the diagnosis has given me. Ah, that's why I do the things I do. Okay, well then how can I prevent them? And I do make my own crappy little lists, and we know what happens to lists, but, you know, I do... At least it's, uh, yeah, awakened, you know, a greater understanding in me, which I wouldn't have had otherwise. And I think maybe you view it a bit differently now, or?

Paul Whitehouse 57:38 You know, I was n- I'm, I'm never dismissive of it, but-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 57:41 He is.

Paul Whitehouse 57:42 I'm not.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 57:42 He is.

Paul Whitehouse 57:44 I'm, I'm not. I, I'm not.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 57:45 You are.

Paul Whitehouse 57:45 As I tried to explain today, there are certain elements of it that don't fit the description. So it's not, to use a crap politician's term, it's not fit for purpose, you know? So I'm bound to be a little bit skeptical. What-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:01 But any condition will, will affect someone differently. Like, you know, flu will affect me differently to how it affects you, 'cause you're already-

Alex Partridge 58:07 Yeah, but there are very-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:08 ... immunocompromised

Alex Partridge 58:09 ... with flu, we know that you've got a temperature, you're gonna ache. You know, your-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:13 But but pain is subjective-

Alex Partridge 58:14 ... your nose might run

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:14 ... innit? Like, and, and in terms of-

Alex Partridge 58:15 Yeah, I know, but there are certain very similar things that underpin flu.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:20 There is in ADHD too.

Paul Whitehouse 58:20 There's one thing so far that you've both identified that underpins ADHD.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:25 No.

Paul Whitehouse 58:25 Wait, wait, I'll... Well, let me finish.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:27 But I know what you're gonna say.

Paul Whitehouse 58:28 What? What am I gonna say to him?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:29 Yeah, go on.

Paul Whitehouse 58:30 No, what am I gonna say?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:31 No, go on, 'cause I'm forgetting the thread, and I'll forget it.

Paul Whitehouse 58:33 Anxiety.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:34 Oh, anxiety, yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 58:35 [laughs] Fucking hell.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:39 No, and the hyperactivity.

Paul Whitehouse 58:41 Yeah.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:41 And I think tics. I'm clocking tics.

Paul Whitehouse 58:43 Yeah, but one second. Hyperactivity, it, it-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:47 Social anxiety

Paul Whitehouse 58:48 ... in and of it- Yeah, we said anxiety. Hyperactivity-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 58:50 No, but the social battery bit

Paul Whitehouse 58:52 ... hyperactivity can be a positive thing. There are certain things you can do where hyperactivity is actually helpful. I don't think there's anything you can do, maybe with the exception of acting, where anxiety [laughs] could help you if you draw on it to-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 59:10 Yeah-

Paul Whitehouse 59:10 You know?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 59:10 ... and turn it into a-

Alex Partridge 59:11 Hmm

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 59:11 ... an excitement or anything.

Paul Whitehouse 59:13 Yeah.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 59:13 But there is no room for hyperactivity in the education system, for example, and these children grow up to be adults, and these adults grow up with shame.

Paul Whitehouse 59:22 Well, there's hyperac- You know, if you're a boxer, obviously would imagine hyperactivity is prerequisite. So, you know, it depends. I know I'm being flippant, but hyperactivity, there are certain uses or ways you can be where hyperactivity is not as debilitating as anxiety. That's what I'm saying. The, the anxiety seems to be the key problem.

Alex Partridge 59:49 How do you think... I agree. The boxer, well, I've interviewed a boxer here, Tyson Fury, many other boxers famously have, have been diagnosed with ADHD.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 59:56 Mm. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 59:56 I think it can be hugely beneficial to many professions.

Alex Partridge 59:59 How would you cater to ADHD in schools?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:00:02 I would always let my students learn how they felt most comfortable learning. That might have been taking them downstairs to the local green space. There was a massive thing about no hoods. I'd have... They can have their hoods up. They could chew gum. They could take their socks off. The lights were off. Everyone... And yeah, you can laugh, 'cause it lo-

Paul Whitehouse 1:00:20 No, I mean, you look good. That was a good-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:00:22 It looked crazy. It really did. But everybody was always on task and loved coming in, and prior to that, they weren't coming in. They were late. They were not being respected by the teachers, and I, I just never adhered to the rules because the rules were failing them, and I couldn't be a teacher like that, uh, being complicit in their downfall and then failing them. No, thanks. I, you know, I never Adhere to behavior management rules, for example. Nobody ever got in trouble, no one was ever excluded. S- you know, all that crap, it was very, very relational always, you know? And there'd be times when I'd get punched, spat at, pushed and all that, and my response was always, like, "All right, yeah, I'm gonna give you space. I'm here if you need me." And then I'd throw in a, "And if you want a hug, whenever you're ready, you know I'm here." And I've just been attacked [laughs] you know? But I know where it's coming from, and no one ever turned down the offer of a hug, none of them, and it worked for me, and it worked for all of them. And that's how I've always been. You meet the person where they are. You don't try and f- make them fit into, you know, a, a whole where ... You know, square peg, round hole thing. I just can't do that. I can't subscribe to it. I never have done. Probably why I can't get a job teaching anymore, but, you know, fair enough.

Alex Partridge 1:01:47 [laughs] What would you tell a child who has ADHD and is terrified of being seen as different?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:01:54 Celebrate your differences, 'cause you're bloody amazing.

Alex Partridge 1:01:59 What's your, what's the greatest thing you admire about your ADHD partner?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:02:04 Nothing.

Paul Whitehouse 1:02:05 I just said, no, I think your cour-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:02:08 Oh, sorry.

Paul Whitehouse 1:02:08 I think [laughs] ... Or I'll tell you all the things I don't admire.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:02:15 I hear it every day.

Paul Whitehouse 1:02:15 And then we'll be here for another two hours. Um, no, I just said something, uh, about your courage when challenging, you know, that behavior of a mother who's at the end of her tether.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:02:29 Mm.

Paul Whitehouse 1:02:30 And, uh, and the way that you are able to disarm her and actually take the trouble out of a situation [laughs] which is very unusual for you, 'cause you usually-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:02:43 The claws

Paul Whitehouse 1:02:43 ... crawl to the trouble.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:02:44 Yeah.

Paul Whitehouse 1:02:44 And so it's weird that you can go into that and just totally disarm the situation. What's ... That's an incredible thing to do.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:02:52 Ta.

Alex Partridge 1:02:54 How important do you think a sense of humor is in your relationship?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:02:57 Oh, he needs it, bloody hell. Don't you? Mm, I'm not that bad, Alex, to be honest. No, darling, you're not.

Paul Whitehouse 1:03:09 I'll let others, others will be the judge of that.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:03:11 No, I'm great, but I'm intense.

Paul Whitehouse 1:03:13 [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:03:15 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:03:17 Got a bit of a closing tradition on the podcast, and actually, I'll ask you both. Um, I'll ask you first.

Alex Partridge 1:03:22 What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done?

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:03:25 I remembered this, um, because I was saying to Paul, "Oh, my God, I haven't got any that are fit for public consumption." And then I remembered the other week, I had a webinar at 11:00 AM, and then at 11:35, I had this unbelievably strong urge, impulse, to go and cash in some invoices that were a little bit late. I thought, "I should know what now, now." And I was like, "I'm not gonna make it. Yeah, I'll be, I'll be all right. I'll be all right." So I bombed down there, and I tried to cash them in and, and, and the lady looked really, like, "You all right?" She was like, "Yeah, the thing is they're a year and a half old. We, we can't, we can't actually do this. You need to go back to the people that issued the whatever they are." Checks, invoice, I don't know. And then I was like, "Oh." She was like, "Yeah." She said, "I, I can't even check for you whether, you know, they're here because they're so old." And I was like, "Okay. Well, thank you for your time," and I bombed back, late for the webinar as well, but that, that was, that's impulsive, right? And why, why didn't I do it for nearly two years, and then all of a sudden it had to be then? I was like, "Mina, stop it. Fight it. You don't have to go. You're gonna be late for the webinar." I couldn't fight it, man. I ha- I had to execute it and go down for no reason, and now I have to chase up some invoices that are, like, nearly two years old, 'cause that's what ... Another thing I do, I don't ... What do you call it? Cash it in, pay them in. What do you do with invoices? What's the term?

Alex Partridge 1:05:01 Oh, like, pay them, I guess, or do you-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:05:02 Yeah, pay them in. Yeah, I'm a s-

Paul Whitehouse 1:05:03 Well, you pay an invoice.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:05:05 Yeah, I'm a sod for that.

Alex Partridge 1:05:06 It's that ADHD tax maybe if you ... 'Cause I've had checks expire, 'cause I've just forgot, "Oh, why did somebody bother to go-"

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:05:11 Yeah. Oh, no, I, I, I don't forget.

Paul Whitehouse 1:05:12 Oh, I've done that. Surely everyone has, haven't they? [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:05:14 No, I get anxious. I, the, 'cause they've been there in front of me so that I don't forget, but I was like, I couldn't face it for some reason.

Alex Partridge 1:05:23 Mm.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:05:23 And then it, I had to do it and be late for the, for the webinar in the process. Other than that, I can't explain the others, 'cause they're not f- yeah, they're, yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:05:33 What about yourself, Paul? Most impulsive thing?

Paul Whitehouse 1:05:36 Um, okay. I once took something called Dr Potter's Herbal Asthma Remedy.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:05:42 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 1:05:43 You're supposed to inhale it, um, if you've got asthma. Um, but we decided to drink it, me and this bloke, and, uh, I went crazy for about two days. Um-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:05:57 Why, what was in it?

Paul Whitehouse 1:05:58 Uh, deadly nightshade. So there you go.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:06:01 [laughs] Oh, my days.

Paul Whitehouse 1:06:02 That was one of the ingredients. There you go.

Alex Partridge 1:06:04 Deadly nightshade. [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 1:06:05 It was a long time ago.

Alex Partridge 1:06:07 What does going crazy look like?

Paul Whitehouse 1:06:09 Well, Mina didn't know. She, she hadn't been born. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:06:12 [laughs]

Paul Whitehouse 1:06:12 It was that long ago. [laughs]

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:06:15 What happened? I didn't know about it.

Paul Whitehouse 1:06:16 Ah, you don't need to know.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:06:18 Will you tell me later?

Paul Whitehouse 1:06:19 Maybe. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:06:21 Both of you, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:06:24 Thank you.

Paul Whitehouse 1:06:24 Thanks.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:06:24 Can I take that dynamite though?

Alex Partridge 1:06:26 Yeah, take it, yeah.

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:06:27 Oh.

Paul Whitehouse 1:06:27 Well, you're gonna nick it anyway, so-

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:06:28 Well, I am gonna nick it-

Paul Whitehouse 1:06:29 Don't, don't catch me out, Paul

Dr. Mine Conkbayir 1:06:29 ... when we launch it online. [outro music]