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ADHD Chatter PodcastADHD Chatter Podcast

Neuroscientist: "This one superfood WILL improve your ADHD" - Dr Miguel Toribio-Mateas

Alex sits down with clinical neuroscientist, Dr. Miguel Toribio-Mateas!

Alex PartridgehostDr. Miguel Toribio-Mateasguest
Apr 2, 20241h 1mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:19

    Trailer

    1. AP

      Coffee, good or bad for ADHD?

    2. MT

      Uh, coffee is a tricky one because we- Miguel Toribio-Mateas

    3. AP

      Now, Miguel is a nutritionist, clinical neuroscientist

    4. MT

      Who specializes in nutrition for brain health.

    5. AP

      There's a food that we can all buy in our supermarkets that new research suggests is great for ADHD. Can you tell me about that?

    6. MT

      So the food is called kefir, and they are really rich in a number of different compounds that are very interesting for your gut. There's a really big connection between the gut and mental health. Anything that you can do to make the gut talk better to the brain is actually going to be beneficial for any condition affecting the brain.

    7. AP

      What other foods are good for ADHD?

    8. MT

      Yeah, so rejection can make me feel something in my stomach, and the stress pumping from the brain to the adrenal glands and then spreading throughout the body. So you're going into a, a fight or flight situation.

    9. AP

      Hmm. Are there any other strategies that you've picked up along the way that have help, helped you manage RSD when you're in the middle of a flare-up?

    10. MT

      There are loads of neuroscience-based tools that are cutting across almost into therapy. But if you try and think in the moment as much as possible about-

  2. 1:19 – 1:56

    Why did you want to be a Neuroscientist?

    1. AP

      Dr. Miguel, thanks for joining us.

    2. MT

      Thank you for having me.

    3. AP

      You've dedicated your life to learning about the science of the brain. Why?

    4. MT

      'Cause it's just the most fascinating organ in the, in the body, I think. It's connected to the rest of the body. It kind of manages the rest of the body. And also because somewhere there, whether it's there physically or, um, in the cloud, and we have access to it through the brain, is the mind. So... And I find the mind completely fascinating as

  3. 1:56 – 4:49

    What is the secret to a happy ADHD life?

    1. MT

      well.

    2. AP

      With everything you've learned about the mind, what do you think the secret is to a happy ADHD life?

    3. MT

      I think, and we were just talking about that, um, I think simplicity, 'cause we get so much into our own head, and we tend to overcomplicate things. Uh, rumination, thinking about things like, you know, 10 potential outcomes of what is the worst outcome that can happen, all of that kind of thing. And, uh, and through my own experience as well as my knowledge of neuroscience and so on, I realize that actually making your world smaller, almost like making your world as small as you can make it, and then start to build it out from there-

    4. AP

      Hmm

    5. MT

      ... is actually quite a good policy in ADHD.

    6. AP

      How would someone go about making their world smaller?

    7. MT

      So it's a good question. Um, sometimes, let's say relationships. So you could have 200 so-called friends, and are they really friends or are they kind of, uh, acquaintances, people that you're in touch with and so on? Are they bringing you joy? Are they making you stressed? Are they demanding things from you that make you depleted, or are they actually filling your cup? So I think through my own experience of actually being really depleted at one point in my life and being really burnt out, I realized that the only way that c- I could go through was to actually limit myself to just the bare minimum of people who I could trust and people who I could turn up at their door and they would have me, and that made it into a handful of people.

    8. AP

      Hmm.

    9. MT

      And then from then deciding, okay, well, I've chopped off a lot of these other people who at one point in my life may have been important, but they kind of like fall through the cracks as life goes, and do I need them back when you start kind of like gaining your energy?

    10. AP

      Hmm.

    11. MT

      Or, and if you need them back, why do you need them back? And I think my policy was are they filling my cup? Are they actually enriching my life? Are they giving me something? Are they making me feel, um, that I belong, uh, in their lives? Are they making me feel happy and creative and all of these things that are important for me?

    12. AP

      Hmm.

    13. MT

      And if that's not the case, I'm thinking, okay, well, maybe, you know, um, they're going their way, I'm going my way, and, and that's life. And I think you can apply that same principle to a number of different things such as or, uh, uh, as well as relationships.

    14. AP

      Hmm. It's so important, isn't it? We have such a, we have such a finite amount of energy. We all do. Uh, but especially I think with ADHD, you have to be so careful about where it's spent-

    15. MT

      Mm-hmm

    16. AP

      ... and putting the boundaries. Do you,

  4. 4:49 – 6:16

    Do ADHDers have trouble asserting boundaries?

    1. AP

      do you think people with ADHD can have trouble asserting boundaries?

    2. MT

      Definitely. Yeah. 'Cause we... And again, I say we, and I'm likely to generalize at some points.

    3. AP

      Hmm.

    4. MT

      Um, we like to people please.

    5. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    6. MT

      Because if we don't people please, then we may risk rejection, and that hurts a lot. And a ti- tiniest amount of rejection can, can actually, you could be ruminating about it like two days later. So it's easier to actually say yes, even if you mean, if you mean no, than to actually say no. So it can be quite empowering saying no, but it is also quite difficult. And I think the trick for that, for me, is just to connect within, to actually connect with yourself and be, be actually quite happy in, in the, in, in, in the things that you, that you want out of life. And if you want energy and you want to thrive, again, I take that rule that I was talking about before, is making things as simple as possible, making things as uncomplicated as possible. That's... I'm 51, so I'm- I'm kind of like now thinking I want less complicated in life. I've had loads of complicated before in my life.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. MT

      And now I'm going for the less complicated kind of, uh, um, side of things.

  5. 6:16 – 13:20

    RSD explained and strategies to overcome it

    1. AP

      You mentioned rejection there.

    2. MT

      Yeah.

    3. AP

      Rejection obviously a huge topic within the ADHD community, rejection sensitivity dysphoria. Is that something you've got personal experience with?

    4. MT

      Yeah, absolutely.

    5. AP

      What does it feel like for you?

    6. MT

      It can feel quite visceral actually. It can feel, uh, again, because my topic of research has been the connection between the gut and the brain, I can feel that is, that link is there because rejection can make me feel something in my stomach. It's almost like the, the pit of your stomach is closing. It can feel like I really need to go to the toilet or, you know-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. MT

      ... it, it's definitely in the, in the bowel area, in all this kind of the, the, this area of the body. And, uh, and it can feel quite fiery as well. It's almost like, you know, your heart is pumping with adrenaline.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. MT

      So there is that connection between the adrenal glands and, and the stress pumping from the brain to the adrenal glands, and then spreading throughout the body. So you're going into a almost like a fight or flight situation.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. MT

      You're, you're preparing to fight something because you've just been told that something you were expecting to turn out a certain way is not turning out that way, or you're preparing to, to leg it from it. So you, you, you run away.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. MT

      And mo- in most cases, I'm non-confrontational.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. MT

      Well, I'm Spanish, so I can be a little bit-

    17. AP

      [laughs]

    18. MT

      ... argumentative sometimes, but, uh, I would rather not have a confrontation. I would rather leave the situation.

    19. AP

      Mm.

    20. MT

      So there is all of those things just spinning in my head in one split second. Uh, so it can feel like my head is spinning with all of this information, trying to make sense of it. What do you do? Do you have an argument with this person? Do you just ignore it and carry on? Do you go to the toilet because [laughs] you feel like a, you know, something like a knot in your stomach?

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. MT

      So there's all of those things going on. That's how RSD feels for me.

    23. AP

      Mm. Th- apart from those three, are there any other strategies that you've picked up along the way that have help, helped you manage RSD when you're in the middle of a flareup?

    24. MT

      Uh, yeah. I think for me, there, there are loads of neuroscience based tools that are cutting across almost into therapy. So I don't want to step into therapists' toes because they, they have a role. But if, um, if you try and think in the moment as much as possible about a situation and how it's making you feel, if you have that quick moment of reflection in that, in that precise instant, and you think, "Okay, I'm feeling X. I'm feeling angry because of this situation. Where is the anger coming from? Is the person themselves making me feel angry? Is what they are telling me making me feel angry?" That's kind of almost like step one and step two. So tracing the source, tra- labeling what you're feeling and tracing the source and trying then to think, "Okay, what, what can I do so this situation doesn't affect me in the way that it's affecting me?" And sometimes it can be as easy as taking a moment and say, "I acknowledge that I take longer to process emotions."

    25. AP

      Mm.

    26. MT

      You don't need to say this to the person, but you know, you can remind yourself-

    27. AP

      Mm

    28. MT

      ... that that is the case. In ADHD, it is definitely the case, that you take a moment to breathe in and out, and you might say, um, "You know, I'm gonna get back to you," and just leave the room and go and get a glass of water.

    29. AP

      Mm.

    30. MT

      Or go and get a drink or go and, and walk around the, the neighborhood and come back. And that is basically steps three and four in that reframing context because you're doing... You're identifying that you can do something so that situation doesn't affect you the same way it-

  6. 13:20 – 15:53

    Are ADHD people more emotional than neurotypicals

    1. AP

      Do you think generally, do you think people with ADHD are more emotional than neurotypicals?

    2. MT

      I think the intensity of emotions is stronger. Um, and, uh, and that's down to a number of different things. But biochemically, the way that we may not have enough dopamine or that the dopamine is kind of like glitchy. So if you have the front of the brain, the frontal lobe of the brain just under the, the, this area here behind the, the forehead, and you think of the prefrontal cortex as the CEO of the brain, and if you, you want a really, um, good CEO that's kinda in charge of things-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. MT

      ... and, uh, managing the, the office of the, of the brain in a really nice way-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. MT

      ... you know, compassionate and kind and taking care of people and all the rest of it. Uh, dopamine fuels that, and it makes you responsive to people's needs and everything else as the CEO, that CEO of the brain. When dopamine is glitchy, it means that one moment is available, and the next minute is not so available. Um, it may be because your receptors are actually not, um, wide, widely, um, um, distributed enough. So dopamine actually is not getting to the right places. Or it may be because you actually have shortages of dopamine, which different things actually help, you know, like sports and some foods and obviously medication as well. Um, so if you have that situation, sometimes you're going to have delays in how you experience, um, a, a situation, how you experience an emotion. And then the, there, there are other parts of the brain, particularly all of this, um, section called the limbic system, including the amygdala and other, other anatomical parts of the brain that control emotions, and there's always going to be a little bit of a, um, um, disconnect between that frontal lobe and the emotional center of the brain in ADHD. They should be talking to each other almost like 50/50 and, and, and relaying to each other how they feel. But in ADHD, the emotional part of the brain is likely to take over. So we do feel those emotions with a higher intensity.

  7. 15:53 – 24:09

    How to pamper the ADHD brain

    1. AP

      Is there anything people with ADHD can do to, and I love this phrase, pamper the brain? We were talking about it in our call. Is there anything people with ADHD can do to increase that communication between the back of their brain and the front of their brain?

    2. MT

      Sure. So there are, um, loads of different strategies. I think one of my favorite ones is journaling. And, uh, there's obviously some directive journaling, like gratitude journaling, where you get something pre-populated, and, uh, um, the journal might be asking you already, "Can you list three things that you're grateful for?"

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. MT

      Or, "What are you grateful for today?" Or, you know. And that's fine. Um, I like a more relaxed approach to journaling, almost like, um, freefall writing, which is based on the work of this lady called, uh, Barbara, um, Tanna Basalego. Uh, she's got a fascinating, um, story that she was doing her PhD at Cambridge, and then she left, and she went to teach in, in Africa. And then she decided she didn't want an academic life anyway, and she started teaching creative writing. And the, the whole formula that she basically, um, talks about is this freefall writing, which is just anything and everything that you're thinking about, put it down in paper without having to think so much about grammar or how it's going to end up looking in the end, whether it makes sense completely or not. And in doing that, when I read her work, I found it fascinating a- as, as well as the story. I'm thinking about it as a neuroscientist. I'm thinking, "This is very cool because what you're doing, you're, um, making some wiring in the brain work in a very nice way." So you're allowing the prefrontal cortex to talk to the cerebellum, which is right at the back of the brain here. The cerebellum is responsible for, um, motion, for movement, motor skills. And when you're, um, writing in actual pen and paper-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. MT

      ... as opposed to typing, typing, allegedly, you're moving your fingers. But when you're, uh, having to articulate the letters on paper, that actually engages that, um, cerebellum a lot more. And then you're sending dopamine from the front of the brain to the back of the brain. And in doing that, there isn't just a cable that is neat. It's a cable with slight ramifications along the way. And because it goes literally all, all through the brain, you're sending a little bit of dopamine to other areas as well that are to do with, uh, reward, uh, with anticipation. So it's a nice flow, almost creating a flow of dopamine from the br- from the front of the brain to the back of the brain.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. MT

      So it's a nice workout that you do with the, with the writing. If on top of that you're expressing your emotions, so that technique that we talked about, I have my own version of it that I call navigating emotions. So you identify what you're feeling, and you might use a tool. There are wheels of emotion if you struggle identifying what emotion you might be feeling. If you always say, uh, "I'm stressed," for example, and that's your go-to emotion, it may be that you're stressed, but it may be that you're angry or that you are, I don't know, you feel abandoned or you feel betrayed or, you know. There are loads of different nuances. And if you have a wheel of emotions, or I use a tool that was actually, um, displayed at, um, [lips smack] uh, as an exhibition, a mental health exhibition in, uh, Dundee in 2019. Um, and uh, it's the periodic table of elements, but it's called the periodic table of emotions.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. MT

      And it's very cool. It basically goes through from joy to abandonment, basically all through the spectrum of different emotions. Uh, that can actually help you articulate how you're feeling, then you might articulate what the source is. So it's because I'm talking to Alex and he's irritating me. So, you know, so you write that down.

    11. AP

      [laughs]

    12. MT

      And then the next thing, what can you do to actually see the situation from another angle?

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. MT

      So ... And it's not flipping this in a toxic positivity kind of way. You know, I'm feeling something that's affecting my mood in a negative way, and I'm going to flip it to something positive just like that. It's about realizing that there are angles in life, and according to how you look at a, at a situation, according to your perspective, perspective really matters. So it's just, um, it's just reflection.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. MT

      And when you're reflecting, you're using different parts of the brain that are allowing you to process dopamine much better. Um, so, and serotonin as well-

    17. AP

      Mm

    18. MT

      ... which is important for emotions. So, and then you basically decide what, what can I do to, to support me in the process? And that's the last step. And then we talked about that before. So you could go for a walk, you could phone a friend, you could have a bath. I love baths without doing anything. Bath is the best way to, um, um, stimulate this part of the brain called the default mode network, which is, is a collection of different anatomical structures in the brain spread between the left and the, uh, right hemisphere, so both sides of the brain. And um, and they connect loads of different parts of the brain together, from the frontal lobe to the cerebellum to, you know, the parietal lobe, so the sides of the brain-

    19. AP

      Mm

    20. MT

      ... the core of the brain where the limbic system is, and you process emotion and reward and anticipation. So all of those are connected with tiny little cables by this default mode network. And it only switches on when you're not paying attention to something, uh, intently. So when you're meandering, and this is one of the things that happens in ADHD, your mind just ... You daydream.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. MT

      Girls with ADHD daydream a lot. That's the typical presentation a, as opposed to, you know, um, boys with ADHD.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. MT

      You imagine them, textbook presentation is fidgety-

    25. AP

      Mm

    26. MT

      ... hyperactive. And the, what we are learning more about the presentation in, uh, in girls is it's more daydreaming. They're, they get in their own mind, and they are, they are dreaming. This is actually beautiful. It's the way that the ADHD brain is supposed to work. And it's allowing you to regenerate different tissues in the brain. It's allowing to, to send ... These cables are actually sending nutrients and oxygen to, uh, and spreading it, um, across different parts of the brain. And that only happens when you're daydreaming or when you're thinking about something very fluid in the past or in the future. So it's very trendy as well to think about letting go and, uh, letting go of the past. But actually reminiscing of something is it can actually activate the DMN-

    27. AP

      Mm

    28. MT

      ... the default mode network. So psychedelics activate the default mode network as well, which is one of the reasons why they are thinking that now ... Scientists are thinking that psychedelics might actually work for mental health conditions like anxiety and depression.

    29. AP

      Mm.

    30. MT

      So if you're really focusing on something or, or, uh, if you're watching something with intent, say if you go into a bath and you have your Netflix on and you're watching something and paying attention, the default mode network is off. So you need to allow yourself to have rest. Um, and again, another big strategy for pampering the brain, allowing yourself to just be lazy on a weekend, for example. Do nothing. Do nothing time is brain repair time. So, and that, that's another really important way.

  8. 24:09 – 27:08

    What is Alexithymia?

    1. MT

      Alexithymia is, is Is your inability to label an emotion. So you'll feel it, but you won't know what you're feeling. And it can happen in autism, uh, potentially more than in ADHD, but there's a, a big overlap between the two.

    2. AP

      Mm.

    3. MT

      And I guess that if we actually did assessments for both autism and ADHD as opposed to one or the other, we'll find that a lot of people actually have to have both. Um, so this is why I said that if you struggle labeling your emotions, if you use a tool that allow you to, to label them and you put intent, you put purpose in, in, in, in labeling your emotions, that can be very useful. And this is down to something in the brain called neuroplasticity, which is happening when you're learning and is also happening all the time, uh, from when you're born to when you die, um, in order to connect neurons with each other and to, um, to adapt to the environment. So you could argue that if you have that and you have been given a diagnosis by a psychiatrist, that you're going to have it all your life, but it doesn't mean that you cannot actually learn to recognize emotions in a better way.

    4. AP

      Mm.

    5. MT

      You just need to have the, the drive to do it, and you need to put the intention towards doing that. And actually having these exercises where you work on emotional, um, granularity. So you set, um, a few minutes a day where you say, "I'm going to work on my emotions. How am I feeling?" And you write it down. And I think writing it down is the best way to actually get dopamine, um, priming this behavior-

    6. AP

      Mm

    7. MT

      ... so it stays in the brain. Because when you, whenever you, you're learning something, you need dopamine almost like a, like a layer of varnish to actually prime that new learning so it stays in that particular area of the brain that you're exercising. And if you work with pen and paper-

    8. AP

      Mm

    9. MT

      ... and you journal how you're feeling, you're actually activating that dopamine from, uh, the front of the brain to the back of the brain, and also working on executive function and emotions and-

    10. AP

      Mm

    11. MT

      ... verbal skills and so on, 'cause you're thinking of words. So you're activating loads of different areas of the brain.

    12. AP

      Mm.

    13. MT

      So it can be tricky not knowing how you're feeling, but it's not insurmountable. And, and I, I guess the key is emotional granularity, working on that granularity of feelings that is not always just stress or angry or... You know? Just try and find more nuanced words that mean the same thing.

    14. AP

      Mm. We were, we were chatting briefly before you came on.

  9. 27:08 – 31:34

    A food that new research shows is GREAT for ADHD

    1. AP

      There's a food that we can all buy in our supermarkets that new research suggests is great for ADHD. Can you tell me about that?

    2. MT

      So the food is called kefir, K-E-F-I-R, and, uh, I've actually done some research on it myself as a scientist, looking at the effects on the gut and then how the effects in, in what's going on in, in somebody's guts with, uh, ADHD transfer to the brain and-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. MT

      ... and have a beneficial impact on, on their, uh, ADHD symptoms. So we've looked at, um, young adults, children and young adults to, um, 18, and, uh, uh, we've given them, um, kefir, uh, for six weeks as well as very basic dietary, um, uh, guidelines, which is basically along the lines of, um, do not eat u- ultraprocessed foods that may have loads of ingredients and come in a cardboard box in the supermarket-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. MT

      ... that's going to last six months and never go off. So fresh food as much as possible, uh, and have, um, your 200 milliliters of kefir a day. And, uh, and we notice improvements in impulsivity, uh, improvements in hyperactivity, and also better sleep, and sleep is really core for people with ADHD.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. MT

      So during sleep, your brain is actually cleansing itself and preparing itself for the following day. It's consolidating memories. So things that you have learned during the day, if you want to call, call them back, the recall of memories from the previous learning-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. MT

      ... is based largely on how well you sleep. So sleep has got a lot of knock-on effects. It's not just waking up more refreshed.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. MT

      And, um, so we did the initial trial on, um, people who were not on medication, so children and young adults, um, just purely not on medication. And then we changed the, the protocol, and we published that in, in the, uh, British Medical Journal, uh, last year to include, um, children and young adults also on medication and receiving CBT as well. Uh, and we've done the clinical trial. We're analyzing the data. We're meeting to discuss the data this week-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. MT

      ... actually, and we should be publishing it later in the year. So it's quite exciting because it's a completely natural approach. It's based on a number of different things happening in the kefir, but mostly it's based on the probiotic bacteria, um, and maybe not just bacteria, but microbes. So nice microbes that are in the kefir, which is very diverse.

    15. AP

      What is kefir?

    16. MT

      So it's-

    17. AP

      Sorry. What, what is kefir?

    18. MT

      Yeah. So kefir is fermented milk.

    19. AP

      Right.

    20. MT

      And it's fermented milk using a traditional method that is used in Eastern Europe. It came originally from Mesopotamia.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. MT

      Kind of like, uh... And it's used in Turkey, Eastern Europe a lot. Uh, and, uh, and it's literally, it's just like yogurt. It tastes a little bit more acidic than yogurt. Uh, it has been adapted for the British palette in supermarkets, so when you buy it in a supermarket, it's indistinguishable from yogurt really. It's very much the same. If you make it using the traditional method, then you get more oomph. You get... It's tarty, it's acidic. I like it. I make it at home.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. MT

      And then you also get to eat the little grains that are the, uh, responsible creatures for fermenting the milk, and they are really rich in a number of different compounds that are very interesting for your gut. There's a really big connection between the gut and mental health, which is what I did my doctoral degree in. And, uh, anything that you can do to make the gut talk, um, better to the brain by putting things like kefir, by putting things like other fermented foods as well, um, is actually going to be beneficial for, for any condition affecting the brain.

    25. AP

      Before everyone runs to the supermarket and buys and sells out all the kefir, what, what else,

  10. 31:34 – 34:14

    What foods are good for ADHD

    1. AP

      what other foods are good for ADHD?

    2. MT

      Yeah. So, um, there is this thing about protein and ADHD, um, um, for a number of reasons. Because if you start your day with protein, you're more likely to have a better blood sugar response during the day, and ups and downs of blood sugar aren't completely normal even though there is a bit of a craze at the moment with people wearing, um, devices to check their blood sugar all the time and all of this is very trendy. But blood sugar goes up and down all the time and if you're not diabetic, you don't need to worry about it-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. MT

      ... basically. Uh, uh, but protein makes the ups and downs more like valleys as opposed to like high peaks like the, you know, the Himalayas or the Alps. It's more like Wales, you know, like soft. And, uh, and that's an advantage. Plus also protein gives you the building blocks for, uh, dopamine. So, uh, protein gives you, uh, tyrosine, which is the precursor, is the building block for dopamine. So, um, and tyrosine is in most protein-rich foods, anything from animal foods to, to, um, plant-based proteins.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. MT

      So it's easy to get really from most proteins, so it's, that's important. But also fiber and, uh, and colorful fiber. So fiber is in plants and, uh, when I look at plants in, and ADHD, I think we need to embody diversity in ADHD. Uh, so we, we are diversity because we are diverse in our brains and if we embody that diversity and bring in a rainbow of different colors into our body, our brain is going to thank us. So br- vibrant reds and greens and purples and anything that you can think of that it's a bright color. Even whites, you know, like a white bean. White is not in the rainbow-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. MT

      ... but it plays a role because every color contains compounds that is almost like the pigment is actually br- being broken down by your gut bacteria and doing some- something beneficial in your gut that's going to affect what happens in the brain. So that for me is really key. Fiber, protein, probably those are the key, the key ones. And healthy fats as well, like, you know, fish oils for example, are really important as well. And if you don't eat fish or you're plant-based, then there are alternatives that, that you can use.

  11. 34:14 – 37:49

    3 foods that are BAD for ADHD

    1. AP

      If somebody wanted to improve their ADHD, what three foods should they avoid?

    2. MT

      Anything super processed I think is key for me. Just because we are, just as we are sensitive with emotions, we are sensitive to other things as well. Um, so if you are putting foods in your body that contain a long list of ingredients and you're reading the ingredients and you cannot even pronounce none of th- some of them because they sound like something that's come out of a lab as opposed to something that you've made at home, that's probably not the ideal food for you. Now, I take an approach to nutrition and food in general that is very inclusive. So sometimes we struggle with emotional regulation and we fancy something crunchy or we fancy something, you know, slightly full of calories or sweet or something, and that's, that's okay to do if that's going to take you out of that slump.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. MT

      If you're feeling like you're really struggling with your emotional regulation and you do that in order to soothe yourself, I think that is valid and I'd rather you do that than you actually do drugs or sex or gambling or something more dangerous that's going to put you in a, in a sticky situation. So, you know, if you feel like doing Krispy Kreme-

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. MT

      ... rather than doing cocaine, you know, I think it's probably, you know, I think it's warranted.

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. MT

      So, uh, um, so I would say, um, try to avoid anything that's super high in sugar. Uh, again, normal, uh, quantities of sugar are okay during the day. So if you're having natural sugars like in fruit for example, I wouldn't, I wouldn't obsess over whether the fruit needs to be eaten with a bit of protein or something like that like many people would advise.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. MT

      If you're having a, an apple, the apple in itself is water, fiber. It has natural sugars, but it's a self-contained piece of food so you don't need to worry so much about having some peanuts with it or some almonds. You know? It's, it depends how granular you want to get. Uh, definitely anything that is processed sugar, so- You know, pink donuts are slightly unnatural. They may be okay for the occasional self-regulation, uh, session, but not something you want to be putting in your body all the time. Um, anything with, with colors that look a bit unnatural as well, and, uh, E numbers. Say if you're reading something and it's completely full of E numbers. And potentially f- fried things as well that you don't really know what they have been fried in. So fried and crunchy can be quite appealing, but the quality of the oils can actually be questionable. You're putting calories in your body that may not be nourishing enough, and you may be putting some excitatory compounds like monosodium glutamate as well that are added to foods to make them taste better.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. MT

      So savory foods that have been fried, so takeaways, you know, deep-fried chicken, all of these kind of things. If they have added, uh, ingredients to make them taste even tastier, um, that can actually make your neurons go a bit wacky in the brain, and we are wacky enough.

    13. AP

      Yeah [laughs] .

    14. MT

      So we don't need added wackiness.

    15. AP

      [laughs]

  12. 37:49 – 39:55

    Coffee: good or bad for ADHD?

    1. AP

      Coffee, good or bad for ADHD?

    2. MT

      Uh, coffee is a tricky one because we... I, I find that there's a lot of generalization in, in, in the ADHD world, and a lot of people say, "Oh, coffee makes me fall asleep."

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. MT

      Well, I'm the opposite. With coffee, uh, I'll have a panic attack.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. MT

      So, you know, I think we just need to realize that there is a whole spectrum of ADHD experiences, and some people will feel really sleepy. It depends on their genes and how they clear caffeine. Uh, and some people will actually have a really good response to coffee. They'll enjoy the, the ride, and then the caffeine will kind of, uh, um, slightly be, uh, disposed of. Uh, for me, the first coffee is wonderful. The second coffee, it kind of, like, makes me a bit jittery, and if I have three coffees, I'll be kind of like-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. MT

      ... thinking worst-case scenario. If I have an email from somebody that slightly questioning what I've done or something, I'll go into a spiral.

    9. AP

      Mm, it's like a dagger to the heart.

    10. MT

      Yeah, exactly.

    11. AP

      [laughs]

    12. MT

      So I think caffeine for me-

    13. AP

      Yeah

    14. MT

      ... I'm off caffeine at the moment for that reason. I really like it, and when I... I'm off medication at the moment for my own, uh, reasons. And when I got off the medication and I started taking caffeine again, taking coffee, I, I was actually getting more out of the coffee than out of the medication. So it was really working for me. But it took about three months before I started getting the jitters again, and then the kind of anxiety that comes with it.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. MT

      And I do live with anxiety, and, uh, I don't need throwing more fuel into the fire-

    17. AP

      Mm

    18. MT

      ... with that situation. So I stopped the, the coffee altogether. I do decaf.

    19. AP

      Mm.

    20. MT

      So decaf has the good compounds without the caffeine. So coffee's good for your microbes in your gut, for example, and for the brain. It's really antioxidant, and you still get a lot of those benefits with decaf without the caffeine.

  13. 39:55 – 47:19

    Dr. Miguel's personal ADHD story

    1. AP

      I'm fascinated by your personal ADHD journey too. When did you get diagnosed?

    2. MT

      At 47.

    3. AP

      And what was the catalyst that led you to seek assessment?

    4. MT

      Yeah. So I, I had been overdoing it for many years. That's the thing, like, a lot of ADHD people do, like lows of energy, lows of enthusiasm for things. And, uh, and I think I was a, a true workaholic. I was ob- completely obsessed with education and, you know, going from one degree to another, and I decided, okay, uh, n- now I want to be a neuroscientist and, you know, and, uh, go full on trying to create that path in my life. Um, before then, I was working in medical research, scientific publishing, uh, traveling a lot to, um... throughout Europe, but to funky places as well. Like, you know, one day I'd be in Armenia, the next day I'd be, like, um, Quebec, and, and it, it was quite hectic. So I think I overdid that for a while-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. MT

      ... and I took for granted what my body needed. So I think I was saying before we started how I used to do some trainings for pharmaceutical companies and, and scientists, and I would hide myself in the, in the toilet until, like, five minutes before the presentation because I was almost, like, having a panic attack.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. MT

      And then I would smile, like people please, you know, and I would be in my, in my best behavior, and then finish the session and, uh, be completely wiped out. So my colleagues would be, "Oh, we're going out for dinner to, you know... with, like, some clients or whatever." And I, "Oh, I've got a headache." And I would miss the dinner just because I was so exhausted by that. But I didn't recognize the... that there was anything wrong. I just thought, okay, well, I've just overdone it and, and I didn't have a label for it.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. MT

      And, like, that happened for years and years until come... you know, fast-forward to 2018, these episodes were getting stronger. 2019, even stronger. 2020, I just crashed completely and completely burnt out.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. MT

      Towards the... It was 2019, 2020, and that, um, I had a colleague who had been diagnosed with ADHD, and he was kind of... We shared a lot of experiences. Um, he was telling me about the medication had really helped, and I was feeling so low that I thought, "Okay, well, I'm just gonna... I'm gonna have a go at the assessment and see what happens." And, uh, and the assessment was, you know, your textbook ADHD-

    13. AP

      Mm

    14. MT

      ... which made sense of a lot of things in my life. Like, I would go back. I lived on the third floor of this block of, uh, uh, flats in Madrid until I was, um, 20. Yeah, 20, 21. And, uh, I would go down to the ground floor and think, oh, the keys or, or my books.

    15. AP

      [laughs]

    16. MT

      I would go to school and forget, like, the books for the day.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. MT

      So my mom would be at the door with, like, the keys or the books because she would know that sometimes I wouldn't even go down to the ground floor.

    19. AP

      Mm.

    20. MT

      I'd go down one floor, and my mom would be at the door already, like, you know, whatever I had left behind 'cause I always left something behind. So that, that inattentiveness-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. MT

      ... that made complete sense. Forgetting my best mate's, um, birthday and things like that, and calling him and saying, "Hi, how are you doing?" And he's like, "I'm good." I'm like, "Okay, so I guess I'll see you soon."

    23. AP

      [laughs]

    24. MT

      "It's my birthday. We're meeting later."

    25. AP

      Mm.

    26. MT

      "Oh, shit, I forgot." You know, things like that. Um, and hyperactivity for me, I think as a child I can say I was quite a handful.

    27. AP

      Mm.

    28. MT

      I was always really good academically, but I was also being expelled out of class, like, you know, most days because I would make people laugh. I was the joker in the class, you know? I wanted a good time. I was chasing the dopamine by laughing-

    29. AP

      Mm

    30. MT

      ... and using humor as my coping mechanism. And, uh, but I got into so many problems in school. I think my mum and dad were there, like, talking to the head of school, like, every second day. Uh, and, uh, um, yeah. But I think I internalized that a lot, and I... It got into my head.

  14. 47:19 – 51:10

    How does ADHD show up in your marriage?

    1. AP

      How do you think ADHD shows up in your relationship?

    2. MT

      Uh, I'm full on. [laughs]

    3. AP

      We are full on. [laughs]

    4. MT

      So I think, uh, every ADHD person is unique, but I guess we are more unique than non-ADHD people, and we are not for everybody. So I think if somebody just wants a quiet life and, and a partner that's going to be easy, and no drama, and everything else, probably an, an ADHD person is not the ideal partner because there's going to be a lot of techno- tectonic movement in there. And, uh, but I think it works both ways. It's like, for example, I've been with my, um, uh, husband now, um, for... It, it'll be 16 years in December, and initially I was very argumentative. When we were having a situation, I was the, you know, "I'm leaving. I'm packing my bags, and I'm going."

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. MT

      And now I'm thinking, okay, you know? I think it... I got used to his ways. He got used to mine, and you need to work at relationships. And I think when I was younger, it's an age thing as well. When I was younger, I was thinking, oh, this is rubbish that you need to work at relationships. They just need to work, and if they don't work, you just move on, and you find somebody else. But I don't think that's the case. I think if you act... genuinely love somebody- And they are always going to be different. Relationships are so tricky. It's like two completely different people, like sharing a space and being together 24 hours a day. You know? Like coming back from work and-

    7. AP

      Mm-hmm

    8. MT

      ... sharing experiences and stuff is being completely co- complementary is, uh, is almost like magic.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. MT

      You know? And, and so just taking into account that we can be quite tricky to deal with because of the intensity of emotions that we experience. Sometimes he's talking to me and he says, "Are you listening to me?" I'm saying, "Yes, I am." "So why are you not talking back?" And I'm saying, "I'm not sure."

    11. AP

      [laughs]

    12. MT

      "I'm maybe just processing what you're saying."

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. MT

      Um, or he gets really annoyed when I'm looking at my phone all the time. "Oh, you're always looking at your phone." But now he's kind of like got over it a little bit more. And my sister and I has, you know, we've had this conversation a lot as well. "You're always looking at your phone." And I say, "Well, it's all news now, isn't it? Because you've been telling me about me-"

    15. AP

      [laughs]

    16. MT

      "... looking at my phone for, like the last 20 years." So it's kind of like getting to accept the person for their quirks.

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. MT

      And if they don't reply in time, if they seem to ignore you but they are not ignoring you, if they go hot and cold, if... You know, it's, it's part of what comes with the condition. And if you just embrace us, uh, I think we have a lot to give.

    19. AP

      Mm.

    20. MT

      I think we can be, uh, amazing partners 'cause when... And again, every person is different. There could be crappy people with ADHD as well.

    21. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MT

      So I don't want to glamorize everybody with ADHD. But I genuinely think from my experience of people who I know with ADHD, the intensity of emotions, the care that you have for other people, it, it feels very genuine, it feels very just.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. MT

      So...

    25. AP

      It's great advice. There was a lot in there. I, I only ask 'cause relationships is a, a very common question that I get from my community, advice on relationship tips. It's, it's an area that a lot of people do struggle with based on reading the DMs and the messages I get.

  15. 51:10 – 54:58

    Top tips for a successful ADHD relationship

    1. AP

      If you had one top tip for how to make a successful ADHD relationship, what would your main top tip be?

    2. MT

      I think it's acceptance and in a, in loads of different, from those loads of different angles. So first of all is accepting yourself and not gaslighting yourself that you are different. Because we live in a society that pushes us in so many different directions that we may not be... We may not feel natural for us, and there's the whole, um, thing about neuronormativity and where society wants you to go. And, and as a neurodivergent person, you diverge from the norm. So the sooner you accept that, um, the better because that is... You know, you, you're bound to... You know, we're born with ADHD to lead the way in a dis- a slightly different way.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. MT

      So we are not born to actually just go down the road that everybody's going.

    5. AP

      Mm. Yeah.

    6. MT

      We're born to go a slightly different route and find a, find a route where there is more food or a better climate or, you know, that's... We are the, the, the finders, the, the, the hunters of the, uh, of the group.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. MT

      And, uh, and I totally resonate with that, with that theory that we are, we have a, a, an evolutionary role in-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. MT

      ... in society. So that is one aspect of acceptance or self-acceptance. And then obviously with self acce- acceptance comes self-compassion as well. So it's kind of, uh, being kind to yourself when you need to be because you're going to bugger up sometimes.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. MT

      You will do at some point or another. And, and it's fine. We all do. Neurotypical people, ADHD people, autistic people, we all... We are people at the end of the day. And I think it's just, again, that ties in with the other side of acceptance. Because we are people, we need to accept that the other person is also going to do things to annoy us, and we just need to find middle ground. 'Cause I think, again, just because of my age as well, I see a lot of this individualistic behavior, which is fantastic. You know, just we are individual, we express ourselves. I believe expressing yourself and the art of expressing yourself is part of... Is hea- is healthy.

    13. AP

      Mm.

    14. MT

      Is healthy for the brain. It's, it's necessary for a person to be able to, to be themselves fully. But sometimes when we go so individualistic, we almost, like, lose time. We don't have enough time or energy for somebody else's opinion.

    15. AP

      Mm.

    16. MT

      And, uh, there was this activist, um, female activist, um, called Audre Lorde. Um, she was a Black, um, lesbian activist in the social, uh, feminist theory movement. She was born in the '30s, and she was very ahead of her time, and she talked about, um, diversity a lot. And, uh, and she talked about how if we want to be accepted, we want, we need to celebrate the diversity, um, in, in, in the places that we live. Because if we don't celebrate the diversity within the communities where we are diverse-

    17. AP

      Mm

    18. MT

      ... then what is the point of diversity? And I think that, you know, there could be a lot of celebrating neurodiversity and celebrating-

    19. AP

      Mm

    20. MT

      ... diversity of different traits, and then kind of like l- missing the point in not celebrating that everybody's going to have a little bit of their own quirkiness-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. MT

      ... that we need to accept. So I think it just all goes back to acceptance and respecting people-

    23. AP

      Mm

    24. MT

      ... for who they are.

  16. 54:58 – 56:40

    ADHD item (headphones)

    1. AP

      I ask all my guests to tell me an item that most represents ADHD in their life, and you said yours was a pair of headphones.

    2. MT

      Yeah.

    3. AP

      I'm gonna pass these to you.

    4. MT

      [laughs]

    5. AP

      And could you explain why you've chosen a pair of headphones as your ADHD item?

    6. MT

      So I'm very sensitive to noise, and sometimes I just need the peace and quiet, so I isolate myself with the headphones. Uh, and, and also, I love music, and I think, um, music gives me dopamine. I'll go and repeat the same track like 20 times.

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. MT

      Like on the way here, and, well, actually, for the last week, I've been obsessed with this track, and I've just been just playing it on repeat. And in... When I heard it the first time, I'm thinking, "Wow, this is, like, really weird. I'm not really sure whether I like it or not," because it's by... It's Justice. It's a band, a French band from... They do this techno thing, and their album in 20, uh, 2007 was massive, and it was almost like a soundtrack for my life. And then they did some other albums, and I thought, "Oh, they were rubbish." But this track has come out, and it... I find it fascinating, so I've... It's been on repeat. I think I must have played it about 70 times in the last three days.

    9. AP

      Then do you suddenly get sick of it, or do you not get sick of it?

    10. MT

      Mm. Some tracks, uh, you'd laugh, some, um... I'm a big lover of Daft Punk as well.

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. MT

      And it always comes up as, like, my best, m- most played album on Spotify. Um, Discovery, Daft Punk, um, 2000, I must have played it thousands of times on Spotify-

    13. AP

      [laughs]

    14. MT

      ... since, uh, since

  17. 56:40 – 58:56

    Washing machine of woes

    1. MT

      it came out.

    2. AP

      I'm gonna do the Washing machine of woes.

    3. MT

      Yeah.

    4. AP

      Every week I ask my Instagram community to pass me their... to send me their woes, their ADHD struggles, and I put it in a washing machine, and I read it out to the guest. Right. This week, in the Washing machine of woes, somebody said... Oh, torn up. There we go. This week, in the Washing machine of woes, someone said, "So far this year, I must have lost about £2,000 because of the ADHD tax. I keep buying stuff for new hobbies but then lose interest in that hobby. I really want someone to set up an ADHD hobby swap so we can borrow each other's items. It would be great to hear that a neuroscientist who appears to have his life together also falls victim to the ADHD tax, and if so, what are some examples of where it catches you out?"

    5. MT

      Yeah. Subscriptions.

    6. AP

      That's fair.

    7. MT

      I would get excited on subscriptions, and I'll think, "I really do need the professional version of this, not the free one."

    8. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    9. MT

      And I'll fork out, like, you know, however much. It could be anything like £20, or it could be, like, you know, some rin- I've done it with ridiculous things that were like £300 and then realized that I need, I didn't need it, and I forgot to cancel the, the trial period. So then, you know. A couple of times I've actually been lucky, and they've given the money back, but... And r- really recently, I sold something on eBay, and I didn't realize that I, um... If you list, um, a reserve price, you get charged for that, and it wasn't obvious. So literally, because it was high value, I got charged a lot of money, and, uh, and then I was really annoyed for about a week. And, uh, I chatted to eBay, and I said, "Look, I've been an eBay customer-"

    10. AP

      Mm

    11. MT

      ... "for 20 years, and I... It wasn't obvious," blah, blah, blah. And the, the lady was very kind and said, "Well, as a gesture of goodwill, I'll remove the fee this time as a one-off."

    12. AP

      [laughs]

    13. MT

      And I thought, "Yes!"

    14. AP

      [laughs]

    15. MT

      But yeah, it happens to me all the time.

    16. AP

      Yeah.

    17. MT

      It's normally things I forget to cancel.

    18. AP

      Yeah. The owners of the Brighton train station who keep issuing me parking tickets, they aren't so charitable [laughs] as the eBay people. We have a tradition to ask the guests their most impulsive thing

  18. 58:56 – 1:01:09

    Your most impulsive thing

    1. AP

      they've ever done. What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done?

    2. MT

      I guess, like, moved to the UK. So I, um, I came to the UK when I was 21, and, uh, and I haven't looked back. And, uh, and I, um, I love it here. I know, like, you know British people just like, "Oh, why, why are you in the UK? You're Spanish. You should be in Spain." But in Spain, it's not everybody, like, dancing flamenco and, like, sunbathing all day, you know? You still need to work. So but yeah, I think something like that. And, and a little bit more dramatic, uh, it goes back to my earlier years when I was a lot more dramatic. I've calmed down a lot now. Um, I, I was, I was in various different jobs. You know, it, it goes back, like, nearly 30 years now. And, uh, I left a few jobs. I, um, I remember two things, uh, quickly. One was, um, just calling my manager something nasty in the middle of the office. It was a Japanese office, and all the Japanese people were like, "Oh, my God," uh, because she was doing my head in. And I said, "And I'm leaving." [laughs]

    3. AP

      [laughs]

    4. MT

      And I shouted in the middle of the office, and I left, and everybody was just like, "Oh, my God, this guy is very cool."

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. MT

      He's just, like, shouted at this woman who was a complete nightmare. And another one was to go, uh, to, uh, Greece with a one-way ticket. I think it was, like, the year after or, like, two years later as well. I just kind of, like, got bored in the work that I... the job that I was, and, uh, I bought a one-way ticket to Greece 'cause I fancied it. And, uh, and I ended up, like, meeting a guy in Mykonos, and, uh, I toured a few of the islands in Athens with him. I had a bit of a, um, summertime romance. My, um-

    7. AP

      Mm.

    8. MT

      Yeah. Um, uh, so things like that, I've done a few in my days of, like, just going with, going with the flow.

    9. AP

      Great examples of how unpredictable we can be and how fun in relationships we can be sometimes.

    10. MT

      Exactly, yes. [laughs]

    11. AP

      Doctor, thank you so much.

    12. MT

      Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful. [outro music]

Episode duration: 1:01:09

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