ADHD Chatter PodcastNo.1 AuDHD Expert: Traits of AuDHD in Adults, THIS morning routine means you have AuDHD
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
80 min read · 15,730 words- 0:00 – 26:06
Is AuDHD a blessing or a curse
- APAlex Partridge
AuDHD, someone who has autism and ADHD
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... is that a blessing or a curse?
- PWPeter Wharmby
Personally or on society? [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs] Let's start with personally first, perhaps.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Personally. Okay. Um, oh, goodness me. It's not a curse. It's definitely not a curse. I wouldn't go that far. Um, I've gone on record many times to make it very clear that I view my ADHD side as being more debilitating, for sure. Um, I think, you know, give... So long as I'm allowed to basically stay, you know, by myself in my house with the things I love, my being autistic is relatively easy to manage. But my ADHD does cause me s- significant issues, especially around organization and planning, and even making my way to somewhere like this, you know. It's, it's, it's hard. But it's not hard enough that I would say it's a curse because, as I'm sure you've had many people on here say before, there are pros that come along with it for me, you know. And, and for me, autism and ADHD interact together so usefully in, in so many ways that I actually view it as being on the s- You know, if we imagine it as a sliding scale, maybe a bit closer towards blessing, maybe just a little bit. Because I find that being autistic seems to take the edge off some of the more ADHD things. So, for example, an au- my autistic love of routine, need for routine, and need for lower stress tends to counter the ADHD issues with planning, organization, and kind of, you know, spur of the moment thinking. So that helps. Whereas my ADHD impulsivity tends to counter my autistic routine-based life becoming too bogged down. So it's like they're both constantly not nurturing each other, 'cause it's not that strong, helping each other out-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- PWPeter Wharmby
... you know, to make me, I guess, a more vaguely more functional human being. But the thing that edges it towards blessing for me is the things that they both allow me to do that I don't think I'd be able to do, presumably, if I wasn't either of them. So autism, for example, seems for me to bring along an awful lot of creativity, a different way of looking at the world, a different way of viewing things, heightened sensory sensitivity, which can be stressful, but can also be beautiful and wonderful to experience. You know, walking through a wood or a forest is presumably so much more intense because I feel it all so vividly, you know. And that, that lends then to creativeness, you know, drawing, writing, music, that kind of thing. ADHD impulsivity and kinda seat of the pants, you know, just let's see how things go, I mean, that's the only reason I can do what I do for a job. I mean, we, we, we talked briefly a moment ago about getting nervous before doing a speech or a big talk or something, and I never plan anything in depth. I never write a script. I never write a speech. I just have my rough idea of what I'm gonna say. Very rough, like bullet points, like three or four bullet points, and then I kind of let what I see as the ADHD take over [laughs] and just kind of... I, then I just, I... Yeah, for want of a better word, I wing it, because that's where I feel most comfortable.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- PWPeter Wharmby
And if I were to write... I did, in the early days, I did try to write out a script 'cause I felt like that was the done thing.
- APAlex Partridge
For social communications?
- PWPeter Wharmby
No, for speeches. You know, like proper, like, you know, like in front of hundreds of people. I'd, I'd like... I tried writing it all out, and it went horribly wrong, because I ended up just leaving the script behind because I couldn't stick to it, because my brain was, you know, going like this, and I was... I don't know. Things come into your head, and you just wanna go with it, you know. So that's what I do now. So yeah. I, I... It's a blooming difficult question to start with.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- PWPeter Wharmby
But yeah. I mean, I would say, generally speaking, being AuDHD allows me to do what I do. It allows me to have that... I, I think it gives me that creativity I need to be a writer. It gives me that impulsivity I need to be a speaker. And i- yeah, it's certainly not even close to being a curse. However, I would say that for a lot of people, maybe people listening, watching this now, maybe it feels more like that. You know, I would never, ever want it to make anyone feel who's out there thinking, "Oh, God, I, I, you know, I hate being autistic. I hate being ADHD," I'd hate to make them not feel seen. Because I think for some people, it really can be enormously challenging and enormously difficult. Um, it just depends, I suppose, on how your life kinda pans out, and I think I've been quite lucky, actually. You know, relatively privileged-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- PWPeter Wharmby
You know, lucky that I managed to get books, you know, become a writer, and that kind of thing. So yeah, if it's rubbish for you, then believe me, I get it, you know. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- PWPeter Wharmby
It, it, it really can be. But for me personally, yeah, more of a blessing than a curse.
- APAlex Partridge
Is your day-to-day as someone with AuDHD quite consistent, or-
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... are there some days where they seem to be colliding with each other more than collaborating?
- PWPeter Wharmby
It's pretty consistent. Um, I have a very set routine on my, on my daily basis, depending on whether I've got my daughter or not that week. Um, but even, you know, when I do, it's just a different routine. It's not complete chaos. It's just a different routine involving school runs and things like that. However, having said that, I will have my days where I do just go completely off script and do something random. Usually, when I've got my daughter, like if it's a weekend. We won't plan it. We'll just decide, "Shall we go to the zoo," or, "Shall we go for a drive and look for stuff," or whatever, and then it's who knows where we'll end up. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- PWPeter Wharmby
You know? And that's... And, and for me, I think that's really nice. That is another good example of them, of autism and ADHD complementing each other, you know. 'Cause it just... It means, I think, my routine-based days give me the energy and the spoons needed to then maybe have a spur of the moment, exciting, different day. Do you know what I mean? And, and then I go back into my nice routine and get my energy back, and then a bit later on, a few weeks later, I can do it again.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- PWPeter Wharmby
You know, and it just creates this nice kind of-Rhythm of, of steady, predictable, and then, ooh-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- PWPeter Wharmby
... something a bit different. And then steady, predictable, ooh, something a bit different, which, which works for me really nicely.
- APAlex Partridge
Can you... Do you find you see micro small versions of the boom and bust cycle throughout your day? For example, when you go to the zoo or perhaps go out for dinner, you can be really excited about the prospect of that activity.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Mm.
- 26:06 – 28:57
Tiimo advert
- PWPeter Wharmby
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- 28:57 – 32:36
How AuDHD makes you unlikeable
- PWPeter Wharmby
[laughs] Do you think there's an inherent unlikability about the traits that we're discussing- Obviously ... from the point of view of perhaps a neurotypical person? Yeah, I, I, I think so, yeah. This is something I've been talking about an awful lot recently. There was some... There was a study done fairly recently. I can't... I... Because I'm me, I can't remember who did it, but you'll be able to look it up, uh, if you look for unlikable neuro d- divergent people. [laughs] But the, the, the study did it... When I first saw it, I thought, "Oh, here we go, another thing bashing neurodivergent people," you know, typical. But then I read it, and it was like, oh, actually, this is pretty on point. It was actually a really good research study, and what it, what it showed was that, um, because of the way that neurodivergent, and I think it did s- mostly focus on autistic people. Because of the way that we act, the way that we talk, the way we communicate, the way we just pretty much do anything, is slightly different to how other people do it, that we, yeah, we end up inherently unlikable. We wind people up. We piss people off. We freak people out. We upset people. We offend people. We make... We give people the ick. You know? [laughs] All of these things are happening all the time, and I think, you know, most autistic people in particular listening to this or watching this will know that feeling when you realize that you've done that to somebody, when they kinda look at you with that kind of, you know- Mm. Yeah ... "What?" You know, "Weirdo. Creep." You know, that kinda thing, and it happens so consistently. You know, uh, I don't think you'd find many neurodivergent people that haven't experienced that feeling of people just judging them very negatively. Often at first glance, you know, like initial judgments, just that-First-- I've always f-I've always felt that neurodivergent people are particularly vulnerable to the whole first impressions problem. You know how we are, we are made very aware that first impressions count. You know, you get to an interview, you've got to dress nicely, you've got to look good, you've got to, you know, charm people, you've got to be at your best. And I think that neurodivergent people really struggle with this, not because we can't dress nicely, I mean, I can't, but many can. Um, not because, you know, we are always messy or anything, you know, we, we might be very put together. But because our innate difference will so often just throw people off, the way we don't look them in the eye, the way we shake hands in a kind of awkward, unfamiliar kind of way, the way we laugh a little bit too loudly at jokes-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughing]
- PWPeter Wharmby
... or don't laugh at all. The way we move around the room, the way we sit down. You know what I mean? I, I often sit down in the most contorted kind of ways that make people go, "Ugh, [laughing] you know, what's, what's this guy's deal?" And, and I think that, you know, on a gr-on a large scale, on a societal scale, this is significant because it means that you've got this minority group who are gonna be dealing with increased loneliness, increased, um, hostility from others, increased depression, increased anxiety as a result of these interactions going wrong. Um, it causes significant problems, I think.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm. So relatable, Pete. I, I can laugh and have certain emotions in my head, and I forget that they don't automatically cross over into my facial expressions.
- PWPeter Wharmby
[laughing] Laughing at a funeral.
- APAlex Partridge
And then you put it on.
- PWPeter Wharmby
You know, that's, that's the example, isn't it?
- APAlex Partridge
You, then you, then you have to force the smile or force the laugh, and then you know that they've picked up on your cheeks being slightly tense because it's a fake, artificial smile.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah, or your eyes not matching.
- APAlex Partridge
Exactly, yeah.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
The, the eyes just looking completely deadpan and not matching up.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
But you s-you sense when they see that, like, you, you pick up on it.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah, you notice. You, you, you know they've noticed you.
- APAlex Partridge
So do you think because of that
- 32:36 – 42:08
Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria in AuDHD
- APAlex Partridge
RSD, Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, which is spoken about a lot, in this context, can there be an objective reason for picking up on criticism and rejection?
- PWPeter Wharmby
Look, I, I personally think that RSD is totally justifiable. You know, I, I know that some people talk about it like it's a mental condition. You know, it's, it's like it's, it's irrational or whatever, and I think it can appear irrational because basically we're overcorrecting constantly because of the actual experiences we've definitely had. I think RSD is a perfectly natural response to the kind of lives that neurodivergent people lead and the way we are treated and viewed by others. We get treated differently in this way that we're talking about, this inherent unlikability. That's gonna breed RSD, of course it is. You know, you're feeling constantly on edge, like you're upsetting and offending people without even meaning to. You know, there's one thing about offending people knowing you're doing it, you know, like an internet troll or a bully or something. That's one thing. It's a whole other thing to be doing it purely by accident when you are at heart a relatively gentle person who never really wishes harm on anyone, but you're still somehow upsetting and offending all the people around you. That's gonna do something to you, isn't it? That's gonna affect the way you manage and perceive threats and rejection, because you are primed to expect it. And when you're primed to expect rejection, you'll see it everywhere, and that's what RSD is. You know, uh, s-like I say, a lot of people still talk about RSD like it's a mental condition that is, you know, very fundamentally irrational, and we need some kind of therapy to get our way out of it, but I think that's missing the point. I think what we need is, if we need therapy at all, we need therapy to help us with the inevitability of the criticism that we will receive for being neurodivergent, autistic, AuDHD, dyspraxic, dyslexic, whatever form of neurodivergence you have or are. And, um, and yeah, for that reason, RSD to me it is perfectly rational, totally rational. Much like school refusal is rational, but they're not viewed as such-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- PWPeter Wharmby
... by society. You know, people view autistic kids not wanting to go to school as an issue, a problem with them. You know, we've gotta-- They're not re-resilient enough. They're not able to cope. We've gotta make them go into school. We've gotta force them, you know? And it's actually no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They don't want to go to school because, well, you wouldn't want to if you were them, because of what they deal with every day there, how hostile it is to them, how horrible the experience is every single day. No rational person would want to attend in those circumstances. But they don't-- it's not viewed like that, and RSD is the same. You know, having heightened fear and heightened radar for criticism is not irrational when you're autistic, for example. It's perfectly rational. You've been criticized since birth for things you've never intended to do wrong. You know, autistic kids get criticized, I say this a lot, but autistic kids get criticized for playing with their toys wrong, you know? If people are willing to criticize a child for lining up their toy trains and not playing with them correctly, then you can imagine what else they're, you know, willing to criticize them for. And of course then we end up hypersensitive to criticism, hypersensitive to rejection, expecting it at every turn. Where's the next criticism gonna come from? I don't know. It's always a surprise when it comes. I never predict it, so I may as well just fear it constantly. To me, that makes sense.
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- PWPeter Wharmby
You know, [laughing] it's logical that we would end up in that way.
- APAlex Partridge
Is it possible for a child or somebody who isn't diagnosed to be confused by this concept of neurodivergent unlikability? Because on the one hand, they might think because of their-- because they're masking so well, they might think that they are like everyone else.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
But on the other hand-Really struggle to maintain friendships?
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah, I think they will be. I mean, on two levels, if they hear about it, you know, if they hear people like me or you talking about it, they might misconstrue it and think, "Oh God, I'm actually a bad person." And that's not what we mean. You know, it's not that at all. It's more the way we're kind of reacted to. But in terms of how they might deal with it on a daily basis, yeah, they're gonna be confused by it, because as you say, they'll be masking. They'll be doing everything they can to fit in without realizing that actually a lot of the weird vibes, [laughs] for want of a better term, and please do remember, I'm not accusing autistic people of being bad here. You know, w- but that's not the point. You know, this is, this is autistic people, just the way we act, you know, we act differently. But if we're giving off these weird vibes, much of that is because we're masking, because masking is weird. I don't, I don't know any autistic people who can mask so successfully that we are totally undetectable. You know? Like, if I mask... I, I often use the example when I give talks and speeches, when I mask eye contact, like I'm doing with you now, 'cause I have to, because I'm- I've learned that over y- over the years. One, one thing I realized about the way that I mask eye contact, you know, force myself to make eye contact even though I don't want to, is when I've got an audience, I pan around very mechanically like this, and then back again, looking at everybody's eyes. No one escapes. Everyone gets a, you know, a laser bolt of it, and then back again, and then back again. And whenever I point that out to people, some of them have already noticed it, and it's already freaked them out a little bit, like, "Is this guy like the Terminator?"
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- PWPeter Wharmby
Like, "What's the deal here?" And other people that hadn't noticed it can't unsee it, and they watch me.
- APAlex Partridge
Reminds me of that big squid's, that big head in Squid Game.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah, Squid Game. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
- APAlex Partridge
Scanning the crowd.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah, just scanning like this. I can't help it. That's how I've learnt to mask it. But the m- a mask is not as realistic as the real thing. I know that a r- you know, a non-autistic person who can make eye contact with no difficulty will be doing it basically randomly, I assume. They'll just be, like, shooting their eyes at people just who knows when. You know, whenever the mood takes them. I can't do that. I haven't got the mental capacity to do that, to mask. I can't mask that accurately, so I do this kind of facsimile version, this flawed facsimile of eye contact, which gives people the ick, makes people go... Even subconsciously, they'll just be like, "Something off here, something weird here that I can't put my finger on, but I don't like it." And that's, that's what I'm doing to them [laughs] without meaning to, you know? And, and I think we all experience elements of that in our day. In many ways, I wonder whether if we just acted perfectly normal, you know, like truly autistic, without any masking at all, we might actually have a better time of it, weirdly, paradoxically. Because rather than giving people a kind of uncertain feeling of, "Ooh, what's going on here?" We'd just be so obviously different that the emotions will be different. You know, they'd prob- they'd probably just be annoyed with us-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- PWPeter Wharmby
... or something. I don't know. It's interesting to think about. But, yeah, I think it's very confusing for kids who are trying their best to fit in, but the more they try, the more they're possibly experiencing this feeling of not being accepted and of people recoiling at them through confusion and being, feeling unnerved. You know, it's that whole uncanny valley thing that we seem to fill as neurodivergent people.
- APAlex Partridge
So if we display behavior that is perhaps misunderstood or even disliked by neurotypical people in a room, and they pick up on that, but how does that make us feel, the neurodivergent person?
- PWPeter Wharmby
Indeed, yeah. 'Cause I think we notice it. I, I do. You know, if I've accid- accidentally weird- weirded somebody out or freaked somebody out or made someone feel a bit uncomfortable with, I don't know, a poorly timed joke or weird eye contact or different way of doing things, yeah, I notice their response. I notice their reaction. I notice them recoil or look away or [laughs] desperately look for somebody new to talk to. You know? Y- y- you do pick up on it, you know, because what... There's one thing that we can say for a lot of neurodivergent people. W- w- you know, we're not unperceptive. You know? If we, we might not perceive things the same way as neurotypical people, but we are often, many of us are highly perceptive people. Um, and, uh, you know, yeah, I notice it straight away. The moment I have caused inadvertently that person to feel a bit uncomfortable or a bit unhappy or whatever, yeah, I've picked up on it straight away, and that fuels then a kind of vicious feedback loop, where I will then be like, "Oh," you know, "Are, are you okay?" Or-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm.
- PWPeter Wharmby
You know, I, I will, like, increase my attempt to mask and to be m- more like what I w- perceive they want me to be like. But in the process of doing that, I may very well be inadvertently making the situation worse, you know, and it becomes this, this vicious spiral then that you can't escape from.
- 42:08 – 50:18
Why AuDHD makes you feel broken
- APAlex Partridge
So many people in the community, Pete, they feel broken.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
And do you think interactions like you're describing there adds fuel to that feeling?
- PWPeter Wharmby
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Y- we're, we're social animals. You know, autistic people, for example, we often get this reputation of being antisocial. You know, people like to think, you know, that autistic people would all be happier if we could all just live in a cave alone. And I- I've fueled that myself, because I have gone on record many times stating that I wish I could do that. You know, if I could go and live in a little hut on Skye or in the Outer Hebrides and just have no human contact, I'd be very happy. But it's misunderstood, you see. People take that to mean that we're antisocial, that we are happier alone, that we are-Instinctively anti-human, myth- misanthropic even. And it's like, "No, no, no, no, no, you misunderstand." This is a response. This is a long-term response to this problem of miscommunication and making neurotypical people feel uncomfortable, and realizing we're doing that. We get exhausted by it, we get depressed by it, and an- anxious about it. We don't want it to happen, but it keeps happening. You know, we... I, I just wanna be able to talk to somebody normally, and it will be fine, but it won't happen because I will inadvertently freak them out in some way, and I will notice that, and they will notice that, and it will spiral, and it will spiral. And yeah, I'm 42 now, and yeah, the reason I wanna go and live in a cave in the Hebrides is because I can't do that anymore. I'm tired. It was... You know, when I was 15, I guess I'd still had some energy left in the tank, you know, to power through and to give it another crack, you know? But at 42, I keep giving it another crack, and it still doesn't work. You know, I'm still falling into the same pitfalls. People still respond in the same way, and, and I feel it all the time. I mean, just a few anecdotes. I, I, I travel a lot for my work, you know, to give talks and, and things like that, and many of the people that greet me and that show me round places and that host me in these events or whatever, conferences, et cetera, will themselves probably be neurotypical, but they will know very well that I'm neurodivergent, you know? And because that's why I'm there, [laughs] you know, that's why they booked me. And, and to begin with, everything will be fine because they will presumably be expecting eccentricity, let's just say, something a bit different. And to begin with, things are fine. But always, every single time, within about maybe half an hour or so, that's when I notice the first, you know, where their maybe overconfidence at dealing with a neurodivergent person who's relatively openly neurodivergent may have been exposed. That they, they went into the interaction thinking, "Okay, so he's autistic, he's ADHD. I can deal with that. I can deal with that, it's fine. No matter what he does, I can deal with that." And honestly, after half an hour, nearly every single time, I will notice that they're already, you know, a bit weirded out, a bit freaked out, and I haven't done anything. It will be tiny things. Like with me, it's usually my choice of small talk because even though I try not to engage in that game of small talk because I don't want to, I invariably will, but it'll be on my terms. So I'll be talk- [laughs] God, I talk to them nearly always about the building that we're in because I like architecture. [laughs] Like-
- APAlex Partridge
That's your go-to. [laughs]
- PWPeter Wharmby
I don't talk about the weather. I don't, I'm not like, "Oh, you know, it's sort of wet out, isn't it?" I'll be like, "So 19th century? Nice pediments. You know, I like the, you know, the corbelings very..." I don't mean to. I, I do it because it's comfortable and safe for me. It's something that I find interesting, and people at least generally have at least something to say about it. But I notice every single time within a certain amount, you know, half an hour, 20 minutes, they, they're already starting to have that reaction of, "What the hell is this?" You know, "Who... W- what is the deal with this guy? This is weird. I'm not used to this. Normal people don't talk about architecture." You know, uh, even though they're ready for me, even though they're prepared, I still manage, I think, to freak them out gently.
- APAlex Partridge
Is there, like, an expiration on their patience towards how they-
- PWPeter Wharmby
That's exactly it, I think. That's it, yes
- APAlex Partridge
... how they're dealing with the neurodivergent person?
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yes, yes.
- APAlex Partridge
And eventually the tolerance runs out.
- PWPeter Wharmby
I think so, yeah. Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
And you pick up on it, and then do you feel like a burden?
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah. That's quite emotional, actually. It's, it's related to compassion fatigue, isn't it? When I did, when I did a lot of work with the NHS over the last couple of years with, um, Anna Freud, based in London, did a lot of training of NHS professionals on this stuff, and what came up a lot there was compassion fatigue. You know, of nurses, in particular ward nurses, for example, eventually just collapsing under the weight of pressure and not being able to show compassion anymore. And it apparently, it's such a big recognized thing that they actually have schedules built around it now, where, you know, if you feel that you're getting compassion fatigue, you can actually go to a colleague and say, "Look, it's happening. [laughs] It's happening. I need a break. You know, I need a break." And they step in, which I think is wonderful. I think that's really good. We need that. But on a smaller scale, in, you know, interpersonal relationships, you get something very similar, which is this kind of patience running out with your quirks, your differences, your neurodivergent behaviors. You start off with in credit, you know, and everything's fine, and they're prepared and they're ready, but you're already starting to become overdrawn. You know, s- it drops so quickly, and you can al- I, I don't know, you know, people watching this, people listening to this, maybe this is something you can really relate with, but I feel like you can watch it happening in real time. Do you know? Like, you can just watch it dropping, their patience with you, their ability to deal with you and your ways, the way you behave.
- APAlex Partridge
I read a study that if your partner becomes terminally ill, this, this, this pattern follows. There's this heightened compassion when the news is broke.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
And then over time-
- PWPeter Wharmby
And then it-
- APAlex Partridge
... as you become more of a carer-
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... the tolerance goes down.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
And actually, there's quite a high risk of adultery at that stage.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Apparently so, yes, and divorces are very common as well.
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. I guess you have... They're human as well, right? They have a level of tolerance and patience that-
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yes
- APAlex Partridge
... is gonna wear down, and this doesn't mean they're a bad person. It's just they're tired.
- PWPeter Wharmby
So it's like res- respite care. You know, um, the parents who have got terminally ill children or, or, you know, very disabled kids or-pe- uh, partners of very disabled individuals or people who are terminally ill, they, they need something called res- respite care, don't they? Where they just get a break. They get, like, a little... I mean, I don't wanna say holiday 'cause that's got the wrong connotations, but just a bit of time away so that they can rebalance themselves, and just recuperate themselves a little bit, and then go back into the situation. So it's a, it's a known phenomenon, absolutely. Yeah, you know, human beings are human. We, we can only manage for so long. But it's interesting for me that this thing that we tend to only talk about when it comes to, you know, terminal illness and considerable disability is somehow pertinent to dealing simply just with an autistic or an ADHD person. You know, the, the lack, the, the, the decline in patience, the collapse of compassion can happen so quickly in a similar way. It's like [laughs] how bad are we? Like, how, how tiring are we? I... and it makes me realize w- we must be very tiring without meaning to be. You know, I don't wanna be a burden on someone, but you feel it at your core when you watch that energy level drop, and you just feel it so deeply that you are, you know, f- primarily, you are exhausting this person, and you don't want to. It's, it's a hard thing to live with.
- APAlex Partridge
Does it...
- 50:18 – 1:04:24
AuDHD in relationships
- APAlex Partridge
Does this apply to relationships as well, this tolerance to difference wearing thin? Does that mean that essentially a neurodivergent person dating a neurotypical person is ultimately destined to, to fail?
- PWPeter Wharmby
Who knows? Possibly. Ultimately destined, m- may- maybe not. Maybe there is, there are ways around it. But I, I think it's certainly a way that things can go south very, very quickly in those circumstances. You know, being in a, a mixed neurotype relationship, let's say, could be a little bit like getting a new job. Like, you're... y- as a neurodivergent person, you can mask to begin with. You know, you've just got the new job. You're just settling in, so you're masking really well, and no one's got a problem with it, and everything's fine, and then the cracks start to show, and things start to go wrong, and I think it basically, it's the same structure. You know, it starts off well, but then over time, you begin to show your true self, which might be differences in communication styles, differences in how you perceive things, differences in how you resolve conflict or how you manage your time together, just organizational stuff. You know, all kinds of little bits and bobs can start to go wrong. Um, and at the core of all this could be that double empathy gap that exists there between the neurodivergent person and the neurotypical person, where basically neither side truly understands the other. And when you don't truly understand something, it's very difficult to have patience for it. It's much easier to get irritable-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- PWPeter Wharmby
... angry, fed up, and so on. So yeah, I mean, I, I would say that those circumstances can be very, very difficult.
- APAlex Partridge
What about two neurodivergent people? Because a lot of our conversation has been how a neurodivergent person is gonna potentially be unlikable to a neurotypical person.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yes. Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
But I guess every neurodivergent person will mask slightly differently.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Their coping strategies will be slightly differently. So even one neurodivergent person could be very different to another neurodivergent person.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. There's a lot said about this, and I actually interestingly responded to a Facebook comment just this morning on this. I'd, I'd done a video on this very topic a while back, and somebody had commented on it, "Ah, but, you know, autistic people to autistic people is fine. You know, we don't have this problem." And I was like, "Well, you know, a lot of people do say that," you know, that somehow autistic people, when they get together, are just fine and dandy, you know. There's never a problem. And like I replied to them, ideally, yes. There is evidence to suggest, for example, that autistic people's communication styles do tend to synchronize quite nicely, so yeah, there's fewer communication issues. However, first of all, like you said, we're all really different, and some people are just difficult anyway, you know? [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. [laughs]
- PWPeter Wharmby
Like, you could be autistic and still a bit of an asshole, you know?
- APAlex Partridge
Yeah. [laughs]
- PWPeter Wharmby
Um, that, that's perfectly p- plausible. But, but more, more interestingly, what you can find is that, especially with, you know, once you're in your 20s, 30s, 40s, because you're an autistic person that's lived in this world and had to mask for so long, that you end up kind of responding to other autistic people in the way that neurotypical people would, because you've tried so hard to be neurotypical and to act neurotypically. But then if you meet somebody who doesn't bother to do that or does act genuinely differently to you, you become just as freaked out by them as a neurotypical person would, because we're all human at the end of the day, and no humans seem to be able to deal with difference very well. We just struggle with it as a species. So actually, in reality, I think it's a nice idea that all autistic people get on like a house on fire. But I think in practice, in reality, it's not necessarily given at all. You know, it's, it's not guaranteed to always work because... Yeah, I mean, just in conversation, for example, one way that autistic people learn to mask in the UK in communication is we learn to do that whole implicit communication thing. Because the UK is a very heavily a n- a, a low demand communicative culture, which means that we don't like to demand much of each other at all. You know, in the UK, our whole system of politeness is built around, "If it's not too much bother, could you possibly do this?" and, "Oh, if it's okay, might you be able to do this? No worries if you can't." You know, that, that whole thing is, is, is how we tend to communicate in this country, and that's very different to how an autistic person would naturally communicate, 'cause we tend to be more st- straight, direct down the line. But as an autistic person who's naturally direct down the line, that's grown up in the UK all my life, I've become that very thing. I, I am now very, "Oh, you know, no bother if not." I hint at things. I suggest things. I don't want to, but I do.And therefore, if I meet another autistic person, well, I'm basically acting neurotypically. You see what I mean? So... And it will take me a while to break that down and to get rid of that, and to realize, oh, I can actually lose that and be more myself with this person. That can take ages, if it ever happens, and it can, you know, really take time. So it's a, it's actually really complicated, I think. The, the, the damage that masking does to autistic people's psyche means that we, you know, we, we can end up struggling with other autistic people just as much as we end up struggling with non-autistic people, which is so upsetting and so depressing. But just simply because of living and growing up in a world where we've been forced to act differently.
- APAlex Partridge
Can it be the case that an autistic person might meet another autistic person, and that other autistic person appears to be not masking at all or very much? 'Cause I've met some people that I suspect are autistic, and they're not putting on the fake smile. They're not bothering with small talk.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Oh, I've come across that load, yeah. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
And I sort of have a l- a level of admiration and res-
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... respect for them. Like, I'm putting in all this effort to try and pretend to be neurotypical to fit in, and it's exhausting, and they seem to have the confidence to not bother. Can that be a situation where there is, like, a level of admiration to a fellow autistic person, and it's almost like, "Teach me how to-
- PWPeter Wharmby
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
... not be this exhausted all the time?"
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah, a- absolutely. I mean, I, I can relate to that. I, I've met some autistic people who wear their autisticness, you know, even more on their sleeve than I do. And yeah, you know, don't... Th- th- then they haven't, they haven't gone down the path of people-pleasing, let's say, that maybe I have as a trauma response. You know, ultimately, if, if we accept that all autistic people are basically traumatized by just being alive, which is, you know, if you don't want to accept that, fair enough, but let's just accept that for the purposes of the argument. Oops. Then y- [laughs] you can go different paths when you're traumatized. You can become a people pleaser, a fawner like me, or you b- can become kind of angry, you know? And that's not really the same as confidence. It's more just a kind of bullish, "I'm not playing your blooming games," you know? "I'm not doing this anymore. I'm just gonna be..." You know, and, and that, that... They're two very different paths. I very definitely went down the fawning path. Some people go down the fighting path, you know, of, "R, you know, I'm gonna be me no matter what." And yeah, I've got respect for that. I wish I could have done that. I, I don't think I have the strength of character to do that. I think if they do, then that's great. However, what I would say is that the story behind that honesty that they might be showing could be very varied. There could be all kinds of things going on there. You know, traumatic experiences that go way beyond anything that we've experienced, you know, really deeply traumatizing events perhaps that we could only dream of-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- PWPeter Wharmby
... that we would not want to have experienced, could have led them to that place, you know, of, of being really just openly different. Or, or it could just be that, yeah, they've just decided at a young age, "I'm not gonna play that game. I'm just gonna be me." And we are gonna see more of that. I think that's worth saying. As neurodiversity becomes more and more mainstream and people talk about it more, and there is this increased push to just accept, hopefully, you know, accept neurodivergent people for who they are, we are gonna presumably begin to see gradually, gradually, gradually a slow reduction in how much people are masking, because presumably we won't need to as much, because society is slowly becoming more accepting of our differences. So I think we can expect over the next 10, 20 years to start to see young people in particular who just aren't masking like we did, who are far more open, who are far more... And it's interesting, you know, the, the... When you think about the, the, the how much that echoes other diversities, if you like, you know, like a new generation coming along and just being open with it and it being normal, and just, "Yeah, this is who I am. This is how I work." You know, I mean, so similar to, you know, like the, uh, the LGBT e- BT- LGBTQ experience, you know, where 40, 50 years ago, people were still very much having to live on the down low, you know, and keep it secret and all that kind of thing. And now, you know, people who are in Generation Alpha, you know, people who are just entering their teens now, are living in a world where, well, huh, hopefully it will continue, where they can be open, and they can just be themselves, and there won't be any need to hide who you are. And I think the same thing's happening potentially with neurodiversity, but maybe a little bit behind the times. So yeah, we can maybe expect to see that.
- APAlex Partridge
Could it be a difference in insight in the mind of the autistic person? Com- the autistic person who is heavily masking and is clearly putting on a character compared to an autistic person who is noticeably different but doesn't seem to care. I had someone on the podcast who said an example where there could be, for example, a schizophrenic person on the back of a bus screaming out noises.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Mm.
- APAlex Partridge
Like, you see that rarely, and they're doing that with confidence, and they don't seem to care. They're certainly not hiding it. Because he said they have a lack of insight into the fact of just how different they are.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
Is it possible that some autistic people just, they don't have the insight to recognize that they are different, therefore they don't need to mask?
- PWPeter Wharmby
I think it's possible. Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's possible, certainly. I mean, it, it's, it's different measures of lack of insight, because often the differences that autistic people display will be very subtle. They won't be quite so obvious and grandiose as, you know, a person sitting at the back of a bus and shouting. It will be, you know, more l- small scale things that, to be honest, you probably wouldn't even expect somebody to have much insight into because they're so-Tiny, these little differences. You know, like me scanning a room like this. I-- It didn't occur to me that I was doing that for ages. I fi-it finally clicked one day, that's what I was doing. I guess I eventually had insight into it, but it took a while-
- 1:04:24 – 1:07:51
Does a diagnosis help?
- APAlex Partridge
And when someone gets a diagnosis at whatever stage of their life that happens, who do you think that helps the most? Do you think it helps the person who gets the diagnosis, or do you think it helps the people around them?
- PWPeter Wharmby
I think it helps the person themselves the most. Um, it can help the people around them if they are willing to do the legwork of learning what it really means. Um, you know, if, if, if a non-autistic family member looks at that diagnosis and thinks to themselves, "Ah, okay. Well, that's great. Now that explains why Christmases are so tricky. I will be kinder to this person in future, and I will be, you know, less judgmental or whatever," then yeah, sure, that's helped everybody. That's helped the families, helped the individual, but it's still fundamentally helped the autistic person who's been diagnosed. But no, I think generally speaking, the, the beneficiary, the beneficiary of it all is mostly the autistic person themselves, the neurodivergent person themselves, because they have that missing piece [laughs] of the puzzle, to use imagery that I-- isn't great. Um, that, that, that might finally explain so much to them about themselves, which has been lacking. Which I think is far more valuable to them than it is to others, because fundamentally the others can just ignore that if they wish. It won't mean as much to them. But to the individual who now knows, "This is why I do these things. This is why I do this. This is why I do that. This is why I struggle with this," or, "I'm weirdly good at that," it, it's, it's a level of self-understanding and self-knowledge, which is incredibly valuable. You know, I mean, it saved my life. I, I don't mind saying that. It really did save my life. Um, no-- You know, finding out what I found out about how my brain works, and I'm not alone in that by any stretch. You know, the number of people that have said to me, you know, just sent me messages saying, you know, "I've read your book or books and, you know, uh, now I've got a diagnosis and, you know, it's, it's, it's saved my life." And I, I never know how to respond [laughs] to that 'cause it feels too enormous, you know? It feels too big to respond to. It's so scary that, that, that, you know, so many people out there are struggling so much. So yeah, diagnosis, I think, is, is inherently most, most powerful for, for the individual. But, um, but to people around them who do a bit of work on it and use that new information themselves to do a bit of research, maybe they'll know a little bit more about AuDHD, know a little bit more about autism, that's highly beneficial too. So yeah, I mean, you know, they do benefit a bit, but it benefits society, I think. The more people there are that know about this stuff, the more people there are out there who, when they get that feeling of, "Ooh," when they meet an autistic person, but who know what that means, who can then think, "Oh, oh, oh, oh. I remember I did that course on autism. I read that book on autism."Oh, that's probably what's going on here. Ah, okay. Right. Okay. Well, in that case, do you know they can actually do something about it then? They can respond to their own prejudice. They can respond to their own judgment that they've done inadvertently, and try to not do that, you know, and try to accept and be like, "Okay, in that case then, this person might just be autistic, in which case I am gonna try extra hard not to be, you know, unnerved by anything a bit different that
- 1:07:51 – 1:15:31
Pete’s AuDHD item
- PWPeter Wharmby
they do."
- APAlex Partridge
Truly fascinating, Pete. I wanna move on to my favorite part of the show-
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah, sure
- APAlex Partridge
... which is your second ADHD item, perhaps AuDHD item.
- PWPeter Wharmby
AuDHD, absolutely, yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
AuDHD item.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Big, big old slice of autism in this one, yes. Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
It's really small.
- PWPeter Wharmby
It is really small. [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs] It's been waiting underneath that cloth-
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... just about w- we'll work it out. Uh, I'm gonna reveal it now.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yes, please do.
- APAlex Partridge
Da-da-da.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yay.
- APAlex Partridge
That is a little keyring of Sonic the Hedgehog.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Lego Sonic the Hedgehog, no less.
- APAlex Partridge
Lego Sonic the Hedgehog.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Why does a little Sonic represent AuDHD?
- PWPeter Wharmby
For me, it's the combination of the Lego and the Sonic. It's the... For me, when I was a kid, when I was growing up, video games were my res- respite. They were my safe place. They were where I would go to recover from a day at school, to recover from a, um, difficult time. You know, the childhood wasn't always easy, you know. We, we didn't have a huge amount of money when I was growing up and, you know, grow... It, it, it was tough. It was tough at times. Um, so, you know, the ability to just go and turn on my Mega Drive and play a bit of Sonic, it just... It rescued me an awful lot. And the thing that was so good about Sonic was that it, I look back now and I realize, it really scratched the ADHD itch, because it was so fast-paced and so easy to dip in and out of. You know, there were other games at the time where you had to really kinda commit, you know, and sit down and be like, "All right, I've gotta slog through this now," you know, like Zelda or something like that, or even Mario to an extent. But with Sonic, you just pick it up, you might whack the cheat in so you could play any level you liked, and you'd just do it. For five minutes, you'd just be zooming around, you know, dopamine everywhere as you're collecting all the little rings and bouncing off baddies and TV sets and things. And, and then you'd put it down when you got bored, which you invariably did. And, and for me, that was just... It was a wonderful place of security and sanctuary, and I still do it now. You know, I've, I've got Sonic 1 and 2, the original Mega Drive, Genesis, whatever you wanna call it, games, on my phone. I've got Sonic Mania on my PC. I've got it on my Switch. You know, I've... There's, there's Sonic everywhere. I've even got little pictures, uh, little screenshots of Sonic that I've turned into canvases on my stairs. So every time I go up to the attic, I pass these little, little images of little 2D Sonic in, like, various zones on the stairs, because it just reminds me of that sanctuary, that safe place that he rec- that he represented. And of course, then when it came out in Lego form, that just sealed the deal, you know, 'cause Lego is my other major childhood obsession and focus, you know, that's always brought me joy. And the Lego side is certainly far more autistic. You know, there, there's that whole thing of collecting and creativity and, you know, nurturing and holding and comparing and lining things up and setting things out and organizing all my little bricks and stuff. But Sonic represents the ADHD. Sonic is himself-
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- PWPeter Wharmby
... almost certainly ADHD. You know, like, when you think about the old comics and everything, the films even, he's got that streak of impulsive, you know, not, not really thinking too much about the outcome, very obviously fast. But also, it flags up that thing about ADHD where I think ADHD often does come along with speed. Not necessarily physically, I mean, I can't run for anything, but speed of thought. You know, real processing speed, which for me is what ADHD really is like a lot. You know, I've often said that for my... You know, my ADHD is not... I'm not hyperactive physically at all. I'm really... I mean, apart from, you know, the occasional restless leg and a bit of stimming. I'm hyperactive in my brain. You know, just, you know, it's like Sonic the Hedgehog zipping around in my head constantly. And, and for that reason, I just think he, he, he neatly represents that. And, uh, the keyring simply because carry it around. You know? Have it with you at all times. Um, and it makes it less likely to lose it, which as an ADHD person is quite a big deal too. [laughs] Because I lose everything, don't you?
- APAlex Partridge
I've always liked computer games too, Pete. We were talking off camera about our, our joint-
- PWPeter Wharmby
We were
- APAlex Partridge
... love for various computer games.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Resident Evil was one of them.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Resident Evil, yeah. Yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
Used to love getting home from school, and I was on my computer games all night. And I've spoken to many autistic people who have this in common. They find complete solace in computer games. Why do you think that is? Do you think there's something about the, you're bound by the parameters of the game, the rules? It's a, it's a-
- 1:15:31 – 1:20:31
Audience questions
- APAlex Partridge
I wanna move on, Pete-
- PWPeter Wharmby
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah
- APAlex Partridge
... to the audience question.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yes.
- APAlex Partridge
The agony aunt, which is called The Washing Machine of Woes, because my ADHD item is a washing machine-
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yes
- APAlex Partridge
... because I always leave my clothes in the laundry.
- PWPeter Wharmby
That was what I did the other day.
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- APAlex Partridge
That's good. It makes me feel less alone.
- PWPeter Wharmby
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
I've been using the Tiimo app, though, which is making me slightly better at remembering.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Nice. Nice.
- APAlex Partridge
This week, Pete, in The Washing Machine of Woes, someone has written in and asked, "My daughter is almost certainly AuDHD, and she keeps getting bullied at school, returning in tears. What can I say to her to make her feel special and not broken?"
- PWPeter Wharmby
Goodness. I mean, ultimately, what you want to hear in that situation is that you're not broken. You know, it's exactly that. That you're, you're... That it's, it's not your fault. You know, you've not done anything to deserve this, that you are... You're okay the way you are. You know, you're fine or you're good the way you are. It's just these people, for whatever reason, don't like you. And I don't know how, how do you explain that to a kid? I mean, I've had to have similar conversations at times with my daughter, and we always tend to just talk about, yeah, just that difference between neurodivergent and neurotypical, and how there is a gap there in understanding, and that neurotypical people struggle to understand where we're coming from. They struggle to understand why we do the things we do. And when people struggle to understand things, they often get nasty. That's no- not your fault. That's nothing you've done wrong. They're just trying to deal with difference, and they're not dealing with it very well. You know, they're dealing with it in a very childish and unhelpful manner. And that ultimately, you know, you being you is better for you. You know, like, you don't wanna encourage any autistic or ADHD person to try to change or not be that way, 'cause that way leads mental illness and depression, anxiety, and such. So we wanna try, and I think, you know, 'cause I think I... You know, it, it hits hard 'cause it makes me think about my own parenting, you know, my own daughter who, touch wood, ah, whatever wood is, so far has-
- APAlex Partridge
That's, that's big spoon.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Is that wood?
- APAlex Partridge
That's wood, yeah.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Okay. Touch wood. Oh, and now I'm gonna tip the spoon over. Um, who, touch wood, so far hasn't dealt with too much along those lines, although she has had to deal with some. It's really scary 'cause you're constantly thinking, you know, how on earth do I try and help this little person get through this as unscathed as possible, knowing full well that as a neurodivergent child moving on to teenager, they're gonna get scathed to some degree, you know, to some extent. I don't think that's avoidable, not realistically. So how do you make, make it a- as good as you possibly can? And I think being really open with them, talking to them about their neurotype, talking to them about why and how autistic people can struggle at school, why others might not deal with them well because they're autistic, just openness. Cl- clarify some things. Help them see what they're dealing with, you know, so they've got the full deck of cards, so they know what to do. I, I think so much misery in the world comes about from the vacuum of information, when you don't know what you're dealing with, when you, you know, when teachers don't know enough about neurodiversity, and therefore they don't do the right thing, when colleagues or other students don't know enough, so they do the wrong thing, and when you yourself don't know enough, so you do the wrong thing. That's where so many of our woes come from. So the more we can be really transparent and clear, and, you know, there are loads of really good resources for kids about autism, loads of really good books and videos and, uh, uh, TV shows that really explore what it's like to be autistic and help explain some stuff. I think that's a good place to go.
- APAlex Partridge
Hmm.
- PWPeter Wharmby
That's a good place to start, so that the young person, so your daughter might thenHave that missing part of the puzzle piece that I talked about, you know, that I got when I was diagnosed. If they get that now while they're still young, that could be really valuable to them. And yeah, it won't necessarily help immediately with the bullying. All you can do with that is to reassure them and tell them that they're okay, and it will all be okay, you know, and that they will, they will... They need to stay true to themselves. But in the long term, they will have this insight into themselves, which is so valuable. But it's a difficult question, because, you know, bullying is so horrible, and people can be so vile, you know, with how they, how they-
- APAlex Partridge
Mm
- PWPeter Wharmby
... treat people, especially at school age. So my heart goes out to them. But, but yeah, fill that information void with good quality information so that the young person knows what they're dealing with, would be my advice.
- APAlex Partridge
Amazing. Amazing advice, Pete. Thank you so much.
- 1:20:31 – 1:21:36
A letter to my younger self
- PWPeter Wharmby
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
Just finally-
- PWPeter Wharmby
Yes
- APAlex Partridge
... I want to deliver you a letter.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Oh, yeah, the thing. Yeah. Now I remember.
- APAlex Partridge
That was written by the previous guest, where they wrote themselves a letter to their younger self.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Mm-hmm.
- APAlex Partridge
I'm going to deliver it to you.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Okay.
- APAlex Partridge
There we go, Pete.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Thank you very much.
- APAlex Partridge
If you could kindly read the previous guest's letter to their younger self.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Okay. To my younger self. Handwriting's just like my dad's. How strange. Sorry. Um, [laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
[laughs]
- PWPeter Wharmby
So you recognize, yeah. To have gone for too long being misunders- misunderstood by others. Stop feeling ashamed of being you. You have struggled too long in life. Help is around the corner if you're struggling. Go out and seek it. Life does not, and should not be so hard. Get the right help right now so you can be the best version of you, and enjoy every moment of your precious life. That's powerful.
- APAlex Partridge
Thank you, Pete, so much.
- PWPeter Wharmby
No problem. No problem.
- APAlex Partridge
Once again for, for coming back. Um, brilliant again.
- PWPeter Wharmby
[laughs]
- APAlex Partridge
And on behalf of everyone watching, listening, trying to understand themselves better, thank you so much.
- PWPeter Wharmby
Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 1:21:37
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