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Oxford Scientist: 3 Proven Ways To Supercharge ADHD Brains

Dr Sarah Warley is an Oxford-educated psychologist who discusses evidence-based ways to manage ADHD. By examining the scientific literature, she suggests 3 ways to supercharge your ADHD. Chapters: 00:00 Trailer  01:19 How zinc and copper affect ADHD 04:11 Specific foods that help with zinc and copper deficiency 05:45 What it really feels like to live with ADHD 07:36 What actually helps a ADHD brain become regulated 09:21 How The Moro Reflex Helps ADHD Brains 14:32 What parts of ADHD cause the most shame 17:28 How RSD can be improved with supplementation 19:09 The unique ADHD experience of loneliness 21:06 Tiimo advert 23:52 Why masking feels safer than showing your true self 26:21 What are the long term consequences of masking 32:22 Audience question: diet tips for ADHD brain 33:57 Any tips to manage the challenging traits of autism 35:33 Any diet tips for someone with ADHD going through menopause 37:10 A letter to my younger self Visit The Key Clinic 👉 https://www.thekeyclinic.co.uk Get 30% off an annual Tiimo subscription 👉 ⁠https://www.tiimoapp.com/offers/adhdchatter⁠ Buy Alex's book entitled 'Now It All Makes Sense' 👉 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-All-Makes-Sense-Diagnosis/dp/1399817817 Order Alex’s latest book about Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria 👉 https://linktr.ee/adhdchatter?utm_source=linktree_profile_share&ltsid=9ffd8709-06df-444c-9936-c136fbd14d6e Producer: Timon Woodward  Recorded by: Hamlin Studios Trailer editor: Ryan Faber DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Sarah WarleyguestAlex Partridgehost
Jun 22, 202638mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:19

    Trailer

    1. SW

      ADHD is not one condition. We lump everyone together and say, "Oh, they've got ADHD," like it's one big amorphous blob, and it isn't. You've got different people, different types of symptoms, and under every symptom, you've got different underlying drivers. We just need to find out what they are

    2. AP

      Sarah Warley is an Oxford-educated psychologist who discusses evidence-based strategies for managing ADHD By examining the scientific literature she suggests three ways to supercharge an ADHD brain

    3. SW

      The Moro Reflex, it's a little baby survival reflex. Any change to a newborn's environment, they throw out their arms and legs, and they inhale, and they go, "Ah." And then they cry, and they cling on. By about three or four months of age, that reflex shouldn't be there anymore. If it gets stuck, it basically means you are locked in that panicky Moro mode for the rest of your life

    4. AP

      What does actually help a brain in a moment of dysregulation?

    5. SW

      So the moment that it's happening

    6. AP

      Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music]

  2. 1:19 – 4:11

    How zinc and copper affect ADHD

    1. AP

      I've heard you in the past talk about copper and zinc, and when I heard you say those two, I thought they're not typically two words you would associate with ADHD, but they seem to be really emerging in this conversation. Why are they both emerging now?

    2. SW

      Yeah. It's interesting because zinc and copper, I mean, they're nothing new as far as the brain's concerned. Okay, so they've both been there. They're both really important for both synthesis of chemical messengers in the brain and the regulation. So we've always known that. I think what's put it on the map is the work of William Walsh. He's a biochemist, um, living in Chicago, and he runs something called The Walsh Institute, and what he talks about is the balance between the two. He talks about the ratio between the two and how that can have an impact. Again, for a subset of people with ADHD, that ratio can be what's messing up their biochemistry. And I think it's important to say, when we talk about the Walsh Institute, so what, what he's done basically over the past thirty-five, forty years, he's amassed one of the biggest databases anywhere in the world. So he's analyzed loads and loads of biochemistry from people not just with ADHD, ADHD, mental health problems, behavioral issues, and he's analyzed it, um, to identify what he calls the, the, the main offenders, the repeat offenders, and there seem to be certain biochemical imbalances that appear again and again in these things. But, you know, his work is based on the database analysis that he's done and also on, you know, decades of clinical experience. But what there isn't are the big RCT trials on his work to further corroborate it

    3. AP

      So if someone works on perhaps the deficiencies in their zinc and copper levels, what traits that we associate with ADHD might see an improvement?

    4. SW

      So again, I, I keep saying it's about the individual-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. SW

      ... which is a terrible answer to give, but it's true. It is about the individual. Um, let me explain a little bit about the relationship between the two things. So copper is a really important cofactor in the enzyme that takes your dopamine, which is the thing you need to focus and concentrate, and it turns it into noradrenaline. Okay? So if you up the, the free copper level in your body, Walsh's theory is that that means you're gonna have less dopamine, and you're gonna probably have more, and most importantly, dysregulated noradrenaline levels. So that's where copper comes into the picture. Now, zinc is a kind of a mitigating force against that because the more zinc you've got, zinc helps you excrete copper, okay? So zinc is also important in the production of neurotransmitters. But if, therefore, you've got too little zinc, and you've got too much copper, Walsh's theory is that's where the dysregulation is coming from. Not for everyone, but for a big subset of people with

  3. 4:11 – 5:45

    Specific foods that help with zinc and copper deficiency

    1. SW

      ADHD

    2. AP

      Is there any particular foods that could help with that deficiency with copper and zinc?

    3. SW

      Yes. Well, well, first, as, as I said, it's not everyone that's deficient, and by the way, we're saying too much copper and not enough zinc-

    4. AP

      Mm

    5. SW

      ... weirdly. So sometimes the problem comes from not being able to excrete enough of something. Um, and then with zinc, it might be that you've got a lovely diet, but you can't absorb enough of it. But yeah, in terms of basic sort of dietary advice I'd give to anyone, um, with ADHD, I would say protein, really important, because, you know, protein breaks down into amino acids, and those are the building blocks you need to make neurotransmitters, so you need protein. I would say have iron-rich foods and zinc-rich foods. Iron-rich because iron is a cofactor in the production of dopamine, so we want to up our dopamine. So make sure you've got, you know, whether it's red meat or pulses, seeds, you know, that sort of thing, leafy green vegetables. Zinc, you're gonna be looking at things like shellfish. You're gonna-- that's where you're gonna look at your seeds and things. Avoiding those, you know, highly processed foods, of course. And the other big one that's really easy to overlook is what's happening with your sugar levels. You know, if you're someone that wakes up and has toast and marmalade or a sugary cereal, you're gonna have a massive spike followed by a crash

    6. AP

      I think what's fascinating is once you start having the conversation around minerals such as copper and zinc, you begin to realize that the conversation is actually much bigger than nutrition. Because underneath all of this is the ADHD brain itself, and most people don't actually understand what it really feels like to live with an ADHD

  4. 5:45 – 7:36

    What it really feels like to live with ADHD

    1. AP

      brain.

    2. SW

      Yeah.

    3. AP

      From your perspective, how would you describe-- what does it actually feel like to have ADHD beyond the stereotypes?

    4. SW

      Yeah, beyond the stereotypes, I think two things. I think dealing with the inconsistency must be really tough, right? We were talking about it earlier.

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. SW

      You can lock in. You can hyperfocus. You can really get something done, but you can't change and get the next thing done. I mean, I was Listening to a little girl that was super smart, and she was doing an exam, and she s- she was told, "Spend the time on the one you don't know as well, the question you don't know as well." So she spent all the exam focusing on that. She knew the answers to the other ones, but she didn't even get to answer them, 'cause she couldn't transition from, from the one that she was on, right?

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. SW

      So terrible frustration from that, and letting people down, then everyone gets angry with you 'cause you had didn't deliver what you say you were gonna deliver. Um, and I think also just invisible effort that people on the outside don't see.

    9. AP

      Yeah, absolutely. It's the invisible struggle that-

    10. SW

      Mm

    11. AP

      ... nobody else sees.

    12. SW

      Yeah.

    13. AP

      You can be observed as being high-achieving or functioning and, you know, handing in that assignment at work and-

    14. SW

      Mm

    15. AP

      ... thriving at that hobby, but the extra workload that you're having to do to-

    16. SW

      That's it

    17. AP

      ... achieve the same output as many other people, and yet you're desperately almost screaming out, trying to make people aware of how much that is an extra challenge for you.

    18. SW

      That's it.

    19. AP

      And then it's no surprise perhaps one day you do, let's use the word, snap, or have a meltdown, or react in a negative way to really a small thing. But it's the cumulative s- things that have added up behind the scenes that nobody else sees, and when your partner says that one thing or that boss emails you that one correction to your work-

    20. SW

      That's it

    21. AP

      ... the dysregulation takes over, and you can really snap in the moment.

    22. SW

      Yeah.

    23. AP

      If the brain is struggling to regulate itself in moments such as that, when the compounding effects of being different are getting

  5. 7:36 – 9:21

    What actually helps a ADHD brain become regulated

    1. AP

      too much, what does actually help a brain in a moment of dysregulation function better?

    2. SW

      So the moment that it's happening, the dysregulation, or do you mean overall in terms of how you can help it?

    3. AP

      Let's start with-

    4. SW

      [laughs]

    5. AP

      ... in the moment. [laughs]

    6. SW

      Gosh, in the moment. I mean, the thing is, when it gets to being a momentary thing, I mean, the ideal is you head it off at the pass and you do the work required-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. SW

      ... to figure out what your main drivers are so you don't get in that position. But when you do get in that position, there are very few things you can do to go from that fight or flight panic mode into a calming one. I mean, you probably know them already. Breathing is one of the main ones. Um, box breathing or, you know, breathing in for four, breathing out for six or eight, and having a little hold between those. That definitely works. Um, you know, people talk about things like binaural beats music as being something else that can help stimulate the vagus nerve and calm the system. When you really dig into the research on that, it's a little mixed, and I'm not convinced it's better than listening to any other kind of relaxing music.

    9. AP

      [laughs]

    10. SW

      But, but, but either way, doing something to take yourself out of that situation-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. SW

      ... and just to have that moment of calm until, until what is a physiological reaction starts to calm down. Um, but it's really hard, isn't it, when you're in that moment?

    13. AP

      I think the advice you've just given is brilliant, but I think this is where the conversation gets a little bit deeper. Because so many people, I feel like ADHD people, they live in a constant state, as you said, of fight or flight, of nervous system survival.

    14. SW

      Mm.

    15. AP

      And you mentioned before one of the key ways to combat this is something called the Moro reflex.

    16. SW

      Oh, yeah.

    17. AP

      But I feel like it's something that most people with ADHD have never heard of.

    18. SW

      Probably never heard.

  6. 9:21 – 14:32

    How The Moro Reflex Helps ADHD Brains

    1. SW

      Most people in the world have probably never heard [laughs] of it.

    2. AP

      [laughs]

    3. SW

      Unless you're a midwife or a doctor-

    4. AP

      [laughs]

    5. SW

      ... then you will have heard of it, okay? So the Moro reflex, after Dr. Moro, an American doctor, um, it's a little baby survival reflex, okay? So anyone that's a mother or a dad will have seen this, and if there is any change to a newborn's environment, any sudden shock, so it could be a loud noise, it could be a bright light, it could be a sudden change of position, what they do is they throw out their arms and legs, and they inhale, and they go [inhales] . And then they, and then you think, "Are they ever gonna breathe again?" 'Cause then they hold their breath for what feels like an eternity, and then they cry, and they cling on. So it's a little survival reflex. 'Cause again, if you think evolutionarily, you've given birth, there's a newborn in the environment, you've gone off to forage for some food. Any change to that baby's environment, it gets a kickstart to its system. It gets a ton of adrenaline and cortisol flooding the system. It gets a load of oxygen, an alarm cry to the parent, and then it clings on. So you can see it's, it's very useful, and there's a lot of theory about it being the reason or one of the reasons a baby takes their first breath, et cetera. And doctors can be stimulating it if a baby's not breathing to get that [inhales] happening. Now, typically, by about three or four months of age in a baby, that reflex shouldn't be there anymore, okay? So what happens with all of these little reflexes is they're there in the first year of life. They come up. They get stimulated. You see them, and you see these repeated movements, and when they've had enough stimulation, they go, okay? And it's the same for all of us. There's a sequence in that first year of life for all of us. Now, what happens if it gets stuck, if it doesn't go? And that can happen for all sorts of reasons. I mean, I've seen, seen it i- in babies that have had very traumatic births, that have had, you know, sort of early traumatic interventions, had to be in the ICU, um, had an emergency C-section, or ones maybe where the mother had a lot of trauma during the pregnancy. Um, none of these are directly causal, but there are lots of correlated factors between them. And if it gets stuck, it basically means you are locked in that panicky Moro mode just beneath the surface for the rest of your life, 'cause it doesn't just go on its own. So I've worked with countless, not just older children, adults with a full-blown, fully retained Moro reflex that shouldn't be there. And we test it just the same way a doctor tests it, and either it's there or it isn't there. It's very clear to see. And if it's there, you can't reason with it. So, you know, if someone were to walk in here and slam the door shut, okay, I'd probably look up and think, "Oh, what's that?" And then I'd realize it's just someone slamming the door, and I'd calm down. If you've got a Moro, you'd be [inhales] [exhales] , and you won't calm down after that. Your heart's gonna be racing for a long period of time. So, you know, I- I've worked with adults that have had endless psychotherapy- I've worked with adults that have been put on antianxiety drugs. But if the cause of your anxiety and your, um, stress is coming from a Moro Reflex, it's from the brain stem. So that's like the s- it's like the top of your spine, so no amount of conscious control's gonna get there. It's just not gonna reach it. You can talk about it till the cows come home, it's not gonna affect it. The only way you can get rid of it is speaking to that bit of the brain in the language it understands, and these are these slow, controlled neurodevelopmental exercises.

    6. AP

      So if someone's listening and they're thinking, "Do I still have my Moro Reflex or not?"

    7. SW

      [laughs]

    8. AP

      What is the test for that?

    9. SW

      You're gonna have to wait and get the Be Bright app that I've-

    10. AP

      [laughs]

    11. SW

      [laughs] I'm about to launch an app that's gonna give you the keys, so you remember the keys, to be able to recognize, test for themselves if it's there or not. And if it is there, um, then tell them what they need to do about it-

    12. AP

      Mm

    13. SW

      ... which is the really important bit. So they're a v- they're very precise neurodevelopmental exercises, and you have to do them every day. They don't take long, you know, maybe 10 minutes, 15 minutes a day, but you do them every day. It's like turning back the clock and giving that nervous system a second chance to develop, and you do it until that reflex has had enough stimulation and then it throws in the towel, thinks, "Right, done my job. I've done what I was here to complete," and it goes. And when it goes, it can be an absolute sea change in functioning. I've seen it many times.

    14. AP

      So do you think a lot of symptoms and traits that we associate with ADHD could actually be a nervous system survival response?

    15. SW

      Yes. I think, I think for, again, a subset of people with ADHD, I think the nervous system probably is tilted into this survival mode. And I always like to think in terms of evolution why that might be the case. Really handy, right? Really handy to have someone within the tribe [laughs] that's gonna be, like the mirror ball, scanning with eyes in the back of their head at what could be about to happen, and what's g- you know, i- is there a potential threat, and noticing things, and connecting dots that other people won't connect. Super, super useful evolutionarily. Um, but not necessarily great fun to live with if, if you're on that knife edge.

    16. AP

      And when someone spends years in survival mode, eventually it stops feeling like stress and starts feeling like identity.

  7. 14:32 – 17:28

    What parts of ADHD cause the most shame

    1. AP

      What parts of ADHD do you think people silently struggle with the most? What parts of it cause the most shame?

    2. SW

      I think two things. I think a feeling that you're perpetually letting people down despite all your best efforts. You know, you, you genuinely don't mean something, and you genuinely care about something, but you just don't manage to show up on time or you don't manage to deliver, and you let people down. And I think, um, you know, when you hear your whole life, "Oh, God, you know, just get more organized. Just, you know, get with it. You know, why are you so all over the place? Why, you know, why can't you just get your stuff together?" You know, and when you hear that again and again and again and again, you begin to internalize it, you know? Um, yeah, so I think that's the difficulty, 'cause it's all about neuroplasticity, isn't it? You hear something enough, you become it.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. SW

      Um, and then it takes time to unlearn it.

    5. AP

      Yeah.

    6. SW

      So even if you've got biochemical imbalance or whatever else the underlying cause is, you've still got to work through the [laughs] the wiring-

    7. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    8. SW

      ... to undo it.

    9. AP

      Uh, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, RSD, can absolutely wreck people's lives.

    10. SW

      Mm.

    11. AP

      It's, it's a conversation that we've had on this podcast a lot, and obviously it was theorized by William Dodson, the American psychiatrist-

    12. SW

      Mm

    13. AP

      ... that kids with ADHD are experienced 20,000 more comments, horrible comments, in their formative years.

    14. SW

      Ugh.

    15. AP

      How real, in your opinion, do you think RSD is?

    16. SW

      It's interesting that it's called dysphoria, isn't it? Because what you've just described, if they've had 20,000 more rejection things, that's not dysphoric, it's accurate. [laughs]

    17. AP

      That's true, yeah. [laughs] That's very real.

    18. SW

      Just-

    19. AP

      That's 20,000 tangible, extra-

    20. SW

      Yeah, exactly. You're, you're behaving that way completely rationally-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. SW

      ... in response to the way the world's been treating you. Um, so yeah, so I don't think there's anything dysphoric about it. It's just you're, you're super, super sensitive to it because you've just heard it again and again and again. Um, you know, it's one of those things that it's not yet, it doesn't mean it won't be, a separate diagnostic category, as you know, but it's, it's incredibly real for people. Um, and it's definitely part of just the emotional turmoil and vortex that you can find yourself in-

    23. AP

      Mm

    24. SW

      ... with ADHD.

    25. AP

      I guess the, the exposure to 20,000 extra micro criticisms-

    26. SW

      Mm

    27. AP

      ... they leave you anticipating or at least expecting criticism and rejection even when it's not there-

    28. SW

      Mm

    29. AP

      ... because you are, you have been bombarded with it so often, and so much more than a non-ADHD child, that you anticipate it all of the time-

    30. SW

      Mm

  8. 17:28 – 19:09

    How RSD can be improved with supplementation

    1. AP

      Is there any supplementation or vitamins or any nutrient advice that can help with the extreme feelings that come with RSD?

    2. SW

      So, you know, it's not as simple as, you know, take this vitamin, take this supplement, and the RSD will go away. 'Cause as I said, I think it's a combination of things. I think it's actually a rational response to a lifetime of experience, and by the way, depression is similar in a way. Learnt helplessness is, is what they call it in the animal kingdom.

    3. AP

      Yes.

    4. SW

      But it's basically, you know, you carry on doing something, and you get all these sort of negative things happening. You come to just see the negative and just expect the negative, and you can't see all the positive things that are happening. So it's neuroplasticity. Your brain begins to wire to look at things that way. So, but what I would say is, absolutely you can address... If you can find out what the underlying drivers are for your particular symptoms, you can then create- Better emotional calm and strength and stability. And if you've got that, over time, the RSD will then diminish because you'll begin seeing the world a different way, and the more you see it a different way, the wiring will happen for you to perceive-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. SW

      ... that actually it wasn't really my problem all along. Maybe the problem was I was being judged according to a neurotypical world [laughs] . Um, and actually, maybe I'm absolutely fine the way I am. I'm just doing the wrong thing, and I'm in, in the wrong environment, and, you know, and, and that awful self-flagellatory blame can, can begin to go.

    7. AP

      Yes. Mm.

    8. SW

      But I don't think it's as simple as take a supplement and it'll vanish. I would that it were.

    9. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    10. SW

      You know? [laughs]

    11. AP

      I think when someone experiences that level of rejection sensitivity and shame for so long and for so many years, they end up not showing the world who they really are.

  9. 19:09 – 21:06

    The unique ADHD experience of loneliness

    1. AP

      Do you think as a consequence of that, neurodivergent individuals experience loneliness in a unique way?

    2. SW

      Um, I think loneliness is loneliness. I think the experience of loneliness is probably, is the same to a greater or lesser extent for people, but are they more prone to becoming lonely? Um, I would say probably yes, and not just ADHD. I would add autism into that mix as well. Um, if you grow up believing that you are different and you don't fit in and being told all the things that are wrong with you, you learn to mask, don't you? You learn to present a face that the neurotypical world will find acceptable, that you feel like you need to put this suit of armor on to get by in the world, to do well in the world. And meanwhile, you bury yourself and tell yourself to shut up. And it comes at a cost, doesn't it, longer term? And so you can have terrible, you know, burnouts, breakdowns, anxiety, depression, when trying to keep a lid on that for so long, um, you know, gradually just, just explodes. And I think girls are very guilty of this, by the way, more so than boys, and I think that's why they get picked up later with both ADHD and autism because, you know, they've got to be all smiling and sweet. You can tell I didn't-

    3. AP

      Yes

    4. SW

      ... didn't believe that. But anyway, they've gotta be, they've got to be the pleasers, the ones that sort of help the social situation along. And so they learn to mask. And so women aren't picked up until a lot later, and by then, they've probably just been left feeling, "Gosh, I think deep down, I'm just pretty weird. I'm just a little bit different." Um, and, you know, that loneliness gets confused with a complete lack of self-knowledge as well, you know, because you're not really being seen, and you're gonna be lonely if you're not seen. And people with autism often forget this. They think, "Oh, people that are autistic just don't like being social." No, not true. Not true, and they can feel loneliness absolutely as much as anyone else as well. It's just by virtue of being made to feel different.

  10. 21:06 – 23:52

    Tiimo advert

    1. AP

      So sorry to interrupt your hyperfocus, but I promise it's worth it. Our sponsor is Tiimo, the best organizational tool for neurodivergent people. Tiimo wasn't named iPhone App of the Year in 2025 by Apple for no reason. It's the ultimate planning partner, gently helping you turn the chaos in your head into a day that actually feels doable, a day you might even look forward to. Tiimo is designed by neurodivergent brains for neurodivergent brains, and you can tell. It supports the stuff ADHD brains can find hardest: managing time, planning what needs doing, prioritizing tasks, staying focused, and actually finishing the thing. And the great news is Tiimo is now back on Android. The app on Android is still being built up to match the iOS experience, with even more features in the works. So if you're an Android user, and you've been waiting to try it, you can now use Tiimo's core features too, including your daily plan, multiple to-do lists, and AI prioritization to help you figure out what to focus on first. Tiimo offers a visual way to plan your day without relying on willpower, memory, or a million sticky notes, helping you break down your daily agenda into something clear, calm, and actually possible. Give it a go, and use the link in my bio for 30% off. Just a note, though, the code only works in the web browser, not in the smartphone app. Back to the episode. ADHD women are the most stressed group of people on the planet.

    2. SW

      [laughs]

    3. AP

      We had a psychiatrist called Dr. Jacob Ambrose from the States come on, um, and share that view, and he said it was because ADHD women, and ADHD men, but specifically ADHD women, are so good at masking. They're constantly having to put on this character called normal, and it's a constant fight to keep at bay criticisms and ostracization, um, and that feeling of being othered and, and, and misunderstood. Do you think, keeping on the topic of loneliness for a second, it can be possible to be so good at masking, to be so proficient at putting on this front, this persona, that that persona is getting the attention, the social interaction, the validation, the emotional connection, but who you really are actually underneath is getting nothing or very little-

    4. SW

      Exactly

    5. AP

      ... and therefore that, who you are actually is very lonely?

    6. SW

      I think that's 100% accurate. Um, and I think then it becomes, uh, almost an act of profound trust. Do I dare show this other person how I really am, what- the thoughts that are really going through my head and, and how I really feel, and will they reject me the moment I do that? And sometimes people, you know, they might have only one or two people in their lives that they feel they can really open up to, and I hope they have that rather than nobody. But yeah, totally, that's a

  11. 23:52 – 26:21

    Why masking feels safer than showing your true self

    1. SW

      real thing.

    2. AP

      Masking feels safer often than showing who you really are.

    3. SW

      Showing who you really are. And, uh, you know, the bigger question in all of this is: Why are we putting this tremendous pressure, okay, disproportionately on women, but frankly, on anyone who doesn't fit the mold, this disproportionate pressure to fit into this neurotypical world, whatever on earth that is? Um, it just strikes me as phenomenally unfair because, you know, you're coping with a load of things that don't come easily or naturally to you anyway. You're being judged according to neurotypical criteria, and that isn't enough. You gotta then try and, try and fit in and pretend to be something else. Why- Can't the neurotypical world-

    4. AP

      [laughs]

    5. SW

      ... meet neurodiversity where it is? Why, why, why should neurodiverse people be the ones to do the changing? And I think it's, you know, people talk about tolerating and being tolerant, tolerant or accepting. I don't even like that language. Um, I think we need to shift it. We need to kind of take off our blinkered vision and see the tremendous value and benefits that neurodivergent people bring. And I think I've talked about this before, but again, in a world that is increasingly gonna be dominated by AI, if you want the sit down, concentrate, convergent, analytic thinking, marvelous, get a machine to do it for you. If you want the big picture, leaps, connect-the-dots, intuition, seeing stuff other people don't see, you're noticing something that, that's going on, that's when you need a neurodiverse brain. And we need to start valuing it, and I don't actually even like the word divergent. Why can't we say extraordinary? Neuro extraordinary.

    6. AP

      Mm. Yes.

    7. SW

      Right? Because they are neuro extraordinary. Somehow this whole dialogue needs to shift, and I think when the broader society begins to realize the true value that's there, and frankly, how much our future's gonna depend on that value, then this terrible pressure to mask and be lonely and everything is gonna go away.

    8. AP

      100% agree with you, and thankfully, conversations are happening now. People are masking less.

    9. SW

      Mm.

    10. AP

      People are recognizing the brilliant strength that can come with-

    11. SW

      Mm

    12. AP

      ... being ADHD, having autism, all of the brilliant differences. However, there are many, many people, a whole generation, that this conversation wasn't happening.

    13. SW

      Yeah.

    14. AP

      And they didn't understand why they were struggling in certain areas, why they were othered, why people were giving them so many horrible comments. Sometimes they thought they were truly crazy.

    15. SW

      Mm.

    16. AP

      For generations that weren't given this conversation when they were growing up, the listeners and viewers of this

  12. 26:21 – 32:22

    What are the long term consequences of masking

    1. AP

      podcast, what do you think are the long-term consequences of masking for years and years?

    2. SW

      As I said, I think there's, you know, lack of self-confidence, which I see across the board, by the way, with everything, including in things like dyslexia, dyspraxia. I see it across the board. Um, a tendency towards anxiety or depression. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I think those are-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. SW

      ... those are the bigger things. Um, I mean, I can give you... Shall I give you an example about someone that I know that, that was-

    5. AP

      Sure

    6. SW

      ... really struggling to kind of keep a lid on everything, which is what you do, don't you?

    7. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SW

      You try and keep a lid. So this is actually someone, I'll, I'll call him Arthur, not his actual name. He's a, a good friend of my oldest son's, and a phenomenally talented guy, truly talented. So, um, he used to swim competitively when he was younger. Very, very ADHD. Very.

    9. AP

      [laughs]

    10. SW

      And, uh, he's like a rocket in that pool. And, um, and he won a sch- He was from a very humble background, and he won a scholarship to one of the best private schools in the country, full scholarship. And then he rowed, and then he got a place at Oxford. You know, his dad's in tears, parents are in tears, can't believe how marvelous it is, pictures of him all over the walls at home. And of course, as you know, the secret cost, the invisible cost, is compensation, compensation, working 10 times as hard, juggling like mad, trying to keep the balls in the air. And actually, there's a Wall Street saying. What is it? There are, there are 10 balls in the air, and two of them are mine, right? [laughs]

    11. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    12. SW

      It was a... It felt a little like that, okay? So he's like juggling, I keep it. And then he managed to compensate until it got to his final year, and he's had little bouts of depression, but he'd managed to get through. And he started doing his first final exam, and he had a catastrophic, just like a breakdown, I can't describe it any other way, where, where the wheels finally come off the bus an- and you just can't cope and you can't compensate anymore. And he had to drop out for a year, which would mean having to do, by the way, if he ever felt well enough to go back, doing the entire last year again. Went back to his parents' house, um, was in bed, was almost catatonic. You know, he just couldn't move, couldn't do anything, couldn't function, couldn't look after himself, couldn't get out of bed, couldn't do anything. And his parents were desperately trying to help him, you know, trying to figure out who to see, putting him in front of different psychotherapists, different psychiatrists, trying different medications. Could any- anything sort of help? And he started, i- I mean, the language he uses is, "I got as low as a person can possibly ever get." And he started talking about being a waste of space and being a terrible burden, terrible burden on everyone around him, and just not wanting to be there anymore. And all I know is my son told me about this. It... When I hear of a guy that is 20, 21 talking about being a burden and a waste of space, I worry, 'cause that's the highest suicide risk category. And so I sort of, s- I, I got involved, and I sort of said, "Look, you know, has anyone ever tested you? Has anyone ever actually asked what the hell is going on? [laughs] Or has it all just been guesswork to date?"

    13. AP

      Yes.

    14. SW

      He said, "No, actually, I've been under the care of I don't know how many doctors and things, but no one's actually tested to see what's going on." I said, "Right. Well, we're gonna test, aren't we? We're gonna find out." So we thought, let's start with reflexes. Is there a Moro? No, there was no Moro. I said, "Look at the way he's hearing stuff. Could that be having an impact?" No, nothing going on there. Let's dig into the biochemistry. Should we do some of those Walsh tests, and let's look at his diet and see what's going on. And actually, his diet was really not good. Lots of leftover takeaways and things that weren't very healthy. Um, but also, we found exactly some of the hallmarks that Walsh would have predicted. So we found a massive zinc copper imbalance at the same time as pyrrole disorder, right? High oxidative stress, no B vitamins, no zinc, and he was also what they call undermethylated, so he wasn't producing enough serotonin. So he had this perfect storm going on biochemically, but at least we saw it. We saw [laughs] ... We had the blood results, we had the urine results. We could see what was going on, and we could begin to address it. And, you know, he felt so low, he j- he sort of clung to it as his only hope, and he did it religiously. So he changed the diet- He took what, what he was being told to take. He didn't skip anything. And, you know, after a few weeks, you could tell he was starting to feel better, 'cause he managed to get out of bed, and he managed to do some swimming for half an hour in the morning, and he managed to do all of these things. And the, the end of the story is, he was able to transform so much by the end that he said, "I've honestly never felt as good in my life. I just didn't know what my body actually needed." And he went back to Oxford, he got a first in Arabic and Russian.

    15. AP

      Wow.

    16. SW

      And he sent me a picture of him being sprayed in paint-

    17. AP

      [laughs]

    18. SW

      ... and I was in tears. I just thought, "Wow," you know? So I ... If you can find out what's driving your imbalances, there's tons you can do to sort it out. Um, but my, my biggest problem is we never question why. We lump everyone together and say, "Oh, well, they've got ADHD," like it's one big amorphous blob, and it isn't. There are different types of ADHD and different types of problems within it. We just need to take the time to find out what they are.

    19. AP

      Such a brilliant story-

    20. SW

      [laughs]

    21. AP

      ... and a powerful reminder of how important it is to, to test what's going on physiologically inside your body and how that can have a connection to what goes on psychologically, and-

    22. SW

      Yeah

    23. AP

      ... the importance of the work that you're doing at The Key Clinic.

    24. SW

      Yeah.

    25. AP

      Sarah, I could talk to you for hours.

    26. SW

      [laughs]

    27. AP

      I'm gonna move on to the-

    28. SW

      Yes

    29. AP

      ... most unpredictable part of the show.

    30. SW

      Okay. Let's do it.

  13. 32:22 – 33:57

    Audience question: diet tips for ADHD brain

    1. AP

      week, Sarah, we've got three amazing questions, actually. I'm gonna start with this one. "I have such a problem with dieting. Do you have any good hacks that might help me get the nutrition I need as someone with ADHD?"

    2. SW

      Hmm. Okay. And when they're talking about dieting, you see, that's kind of a broad term, isn't it?

    3. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SW

      Because I don't much believe in diets about losing weight, but that's another whole story. I think focusing on the nutrients your body needs, and then there isn't a lot of room to eat all the other junk anyway, so I think that's-

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. SW

      ... definitely the place to put the emphasis, and as part of a long-term change to what you're eating. So it's the stuff I talked about at the beginning. Focus on protein. Every meal you have, make sure you have protein with it, especially breakfast, to control those sugar spikes. Make sure you've got enough iron-rich foods and z- and zinc-rich foods. So as I said, meats, pulses, all that sort of thing, shellfish. Um, omega-3s, definitely make sure you've got those. Um, I've talked about controlling the sugar spikes, and try to avoid the ultra-processed things. That ... You know, that would be it. Um, and really, it's about realizing that what you're putting in your body is literally affecting your brain. So it's an act of self-love. It's not ... If you see it not as an act of denial, which I think that's the trouble with the word diet, you think, "Oh, you can't have this, and you can't have that." No, you could have lots of food, but just make sure it's stuff that's gonna be really good for you and is gonna really be nutritious and help you, so it's an act of love, um, rather than denial. That's how I like to see it.

    7. AP

      Fascinating. Thank you, Sarah. Um, this is actually connected to something we were talking about in the break, and I didn't actually know this was in here.

  14. 33:57 – 35:33

    Any tips to manage the challenging traits of autism

    1. SW

      Mm-hmm.

    2. AP

      Um, is there anything you know of that might help with the symptoms of autism?

    3. SW

      Gosh, yeah, so that's a whole big one-

    4. AP

      Yeah [laughs]

    5. SW

      ... that we can cover another day, because there are so many things I'd love to talk about here. Um, I'd like to talk about the gut microbiome, because we know that it is generally dysregulated in people with autistic symptoms. Um, I was mentioning in the break about a, a particular diet that, again, for a subset of people, can be really, really effective at helping improve things. That's a gluten, dairy-free diet. It's called gluten casein free diet. You may have heard of it. Um, the autism ... I would point you in the direction of the autism, actually, CRI, Autism Research Institute in America, and they published findings on a study of 25,000 parents of autistic people, and they said, "Let's go through everything you've tried, and tell us what made things worse, what didn't do anything, and what helped." So gluten casein free diet, 69% of people said it really improved their symptoms. And there are loads of other things on there as well, you know, things like treating gut candida, things like broadening the gut microbiome. All of those gut things, um, seem to lead to very good gains. And interestingly, most of the medications, with the exceptions of the one that stop epilepsy, seem to move in the negative direction. So that's why I get a little concerned when we talk about all ADHD, and we're still being told, "Take stimulants."

    6. AP

      Hmm.

    7. SW

      You, you know, it's, you're looking at different things. But that's a whole big conversation, [laughs] a separate one.

    8. AP

      Yeah. We'll have to have you back.

    9. SW

      [laughs] Okay.

    10. AP

      Fascinating. And this one, really important for the listeners and, and viewers of ADHD Chatter. Just finally,

  15. 35:33 – 37:10

    Any diet tips for someone with ADHD going through menopause

    1. AP

      do you think there are different dietary requirements for someone going through menopause with ADHD?

    2. SW

      You see, that's really important, because I don't know if you've ... Yeah, I think you've probably discussed before the link between estrogen and dopamine.

    3. AP

      Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

    4. SW

      So perimenopause, menopause, what's happening? Have I suddenly become ADHD? Well, people are gonna f- uh, feel a drop in their dopamine anyway, but you may have had underlying ADHD all those years anyway, and the minute that begins to drop, you start ... It, it, it's like the scaffolding's fallen away, and you've seen what was really there all along, which is, [laughs] you know-

    5. AP

      Yes

    6. SW

      ... "God, I don't have any dopamine, and I'm very dysregulated." Um, protein, protein, protein. Um, the, protein forms the building blocks for neurotransmitters, and we've talked about zinc earlier also-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. SW

      ... being an important part of that. Um, so I think that's where the focus is. And actually, I would say along with dietary things, Liz Earle, who's lovely, who's a good friend of mine, has written a brilliant book. She wrote it a while back on dietary interventions, lovely diet recipes for people going through menopause, and I, I've got it at home, and I would definitely recommend that. [laughs]

    9. AP

      What's it called?

    10. SW

      Uh, I think it's just called, uh, Menopause or The Menopause. If you put in Liz Earle-

    11. AP

      Liz Earle

    12. SW

      ... and menopause, then the-

    13. AP

      Yeah. We'll, we'll find out, put the link in the description-

    14. SW

      Yeah

    15. AP

      ... of this episode.

    16. SW

      I'll, I'll find out the link.

    17. AP

      Just finally, Sarah, I'm gonna do one more thing. And this is really, really-

    18. SW

      Yeah

    19. AP

      ... a s- a sweet ending. I'm gonna deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest.

    20. SW

      Okay.

    21. AP

      And they wrote a letter-

    22. SW

      Yeah

    23. AP

      ... to their younger self.

    24. SW

      Oh, to their younger self?

    25. AP

      And if you could kindly read-

    26. SW

      Yes

    27. AP

      ... last week's guest's letter to-

    28. SW

      Did they have ADHD, last week's guest?

    29. AP

      Now this is gonna test my memory. I'm trying to think who it was.

    30. SW

      Well, let's see. Don't worry, I'm not gonna

  16. 37:10 – 38:06

    A letter to my younger self

    1. SW

      put you on the spot. "To my younger self," stop ... Oh, they must do.

    2. AP

      [laughs]

    3. SW

      "Stop, stop blaming your character for your wiring. Now you understand your struggles, you can be kind to yourself," 'cause that's the, the really important one. "Don't listen to all the 20,000 critical comments. And again, be kind to yourself." You know, that word kindness, actually, it's at the root of, of everything. It's the most important thing of all, being kind to yourself and for everyone to be kind to people who are different, truly kind, not just lip service, but truly seeing things through different eyes, seeing the world a different way. Everything would be so much richer for it.

    4. AP

      Absolutely.

    5. SW

      Yeah.

    6. AP

      And a lovely tone to end on. On behalf of everyone-

    7. SW

      [laughs]

    8. AP

      ... struggling to grapple and understand-

    9. SW

      Yeah

    10. AP

      ... their brains, Sarah, thank you so much.

    11. SW

      You're so welcome. My pleasure. [outro music]

Episode duration: 38:06

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