Renowned Therapist: 3 Ways To SAVE A Failing ADHD Relationship - Karen Doherty

Alex Partridge 0:00 Divorce rates amongst the ADHD community is 66%. Why do you think that might be?

Karen Doherty 0:06 Well, um-

Alex Partridge 0:08 Karen Doherty The couples counselor Who's helped thousands of people, who now specializes in neurodivergent relationships Karen, if you had three tips on how to make a marriage work, what would they be?

Karen Doherty 0:20 The first one is the, the communication is, is essential. You have to hold onto your own lives. You have to be able to be autonomous, and then absolutely dependent. Too much of either or the other, it doesn't make the couple thrive. And the third one is-

Alex Partridge 0:32 Do you think a, a neurodivergent person, if they're in a relationship with a neurotypical person, there might be communication issues?

Karen Doherty 0:39 Neurodiverse experience to date have had a lot of negativity and challenges and misunderstanding in their early lives that have left them fragile and not confident about themselves, and I think the neurodiverse population has probably had more of that than the neurotypical.

Alex Partridge 0:55 What advice would you give to a couple like that?

Karen Doherty 0:56 Um, it's, it's recognizing... What is love? What's your definition of love, Alex?

Alex Partridge 1:03 I think...

Alex Partridge 1:10 When, with an ADHD person, when they meet someone, how can someone tell the difference between a hyper obsession and actually falling in real love with somebody?

Karen Doherty 1:19 You can't. [laughs] Everybody, you know, whether you're ND or not ND, there's that limerence. Now, yes, definitely with some ND relationships there's an intensity, um, a passionate intensity, almost a merge. These relationships are very prone to that merging at the very beginning. It's almost, it's too intense to bear sometimes. Um, people are very sure that they found their soulmate and, um, that this is, you know, th- th- this is how it's, how, how, what they've been looking for. So it's incredibly intense. Now, whether love develops out of that or not is, it's different for everyone. Um, but that passion and merge at the beginning is a big part of these relationships. It's a, it's a big indicator of whether there is any neurodiversity, actually, because do you understand what I say when I say merged? It's almost as if two people just, they, their lives just, they, they just cling together. They sort of lose the, the, the ability to dance autonomously. They can't do that.

Alex Partridge 2:25 Mm.

Karen Doherty 2:26 They can't be autonomous. Everything is re- is related back to the relationship, and that makes it, it, that makes it incredibly intense. And of course, nobody can live like that. That said, uh, neurodiverse relationships take, can do that for quite a while, until something, until something breaks it. So sometimes, sometimes that's a loss of interest, but I've met, I've met couples that have been merged for quite a long time and th- are each other's worlds, um, neurodiverse couples. But they get, it gets broken when a third is introduced, so a child. That's really tricky for these couples because then they have to, they have to sort of separate and there's a third coming in, so it can be quite, can be quite tricky.

Alex Partridge 3:12 That really early stage in a relationship where they've just met and there's this flood of excitement, do you think that is love at that early stage, or is that more an infatuation, an obsession?

Karen Doherty 3:24 Or just chemicals. [laughs] You know, uh, intoxication. Everybody loves falling in love. What is love? What's your definition of love, Alex?

Alex Partridge 3:32 The thought of them not being in your life is devastating. I think for me, that's probably the definition of love.

Karen Doherty 3:37 Mm-hmm. Okay.

Alex Partridge 3:39 Too unbearably painful to even consider the thought of them not being in your life tomorrow.

Karen Doherty 3:44 That they're gone, yes. Yes. But you wouldn't know that, really. You'd need time to develop that. You'd need time to know that you wanted that person there for a long time. I always, I always say to people, "You know, it's two years, isn't it?" Two years is the time. Two years is the time when it's make or break, really, for, for couples of age, so to speak. After about 18 months, 19 months, all the limerence is gone. Most of it's gone. You are sort of, y- you sort of got to know each other, and you're ready to say, "Okay, am I gonna go on with this, or is this not gonna happen?" And that's when you really know whether you're in love or not, I think.

Alex Partridge 4:17 Do you

Alex Partridge 4:18 think a, a neurodivergent person, if they're in a relationship with a non or a neurotypical person, there might be communication issues?

Karen Doherty 4:26 Always. [laughs] Yes, always. There's all sorts of communication issues. It's literally you're reading from different p- [laughs] You're reading from different pages. Yes.

Alex Partridge 4:37 How, if someone comes to you and they're having issue, communication issues, what advice would you give to a couple like that?

Karen Doherty 4:43 It's, it's recognizing where the communication goes wrong. It, it's recognizing the triggers. Communication suffers when there is an emotional trigger, especially with a neurodiverse person. Something in a conversation will trigger an emotional response. The person, the, uh, the more neurotypical might not have realized that they've triggered that. They might not have realized that they've said something that has hit hard. The more neurodiverse, once triggered, the executive function starts to falter. So they stop there. That's where they stop the conversation. They haven't probably heard the end of the sentence. From that moment on, you've got two people having different conversations. The neurodiverse is, is, is on that last sentence, and the neurotypical is thinking, "W- w- I was talking about this, and he's talking about that." Uh, let's give you an example. Bins. "Can you take the bins out please, darling?" "I took them out last night." "I know you did. I know you took them out last night. They need taking out again. Can you take them out?" "But I took them out last night." "No, no, I really... I get that. I understand you took them out, and I understand, and thank you for taking them out last night, but they need to go out tonight because the bin men are coming, and there's something happening down the end of the close, and this, that, and the other." "You don't understand. I did it last night." That's a classic miscommunication where there has been a tr- there's been a defensive response triggered because the bins are out, and they can't hear that there's actually a reason for something else beyond that. And, and that happens in many, many, many micro ways, many, many times in relationships.

Alex Partridge 6:16 So is that an incompatibility, or is there a solution to the communication issues?

Karen Doherty 6:22 As soon as you know that that's happened, so that little sketch, you know, you play that out in a, in a, in a room with, with a couple, and they will ... Their li- Their, their, their faces will light up as they recognize that they've done that 1,000 times. 1,000 times, one's been saying something, the other one has been hurt or got defensive or thought that they've, they were in the wrong in some way, stopped communicating about the issue and gone into a defense mode.

Alex Partridge 6:46 Mm.

Karen Doherty 6:47 And then the conversation is lost. So that's a, that's a classic sort of communication issue. Y- you've, you've also got, you know, when somebody is not quite on point, if somebody's feeling very dysregulated, they won't be able to have the same conversation at, in that moment as they can three hours later when they're more relaxed-

Alex Partridge 7:04 Mm

Karen Doherty 7:04 ... and they, you know, their sensory issues have calmed down. Perhaps they've just come home from work. Classic, that, isn't it? People coming home from work, and s- for example, the neurotypical mom has got the kids and really just wants, "Hi, how are you? Can you just sit down?" But of course, the neurodiverse just absolutely can't do anything. They're overwhelmed.

Alex Partridge 7:21 Mm.

Karen Doherty 7:22 Their sensory reactions are just, uh, uh, they're inflamed. Um, they need to sit down. They just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes just to, to, to take a break.

Alex Partridge 7:31 Do you think the, that emotional dysregulation that the ADHDer might present, do you think that's difficult to understand for the other partner who isn't ADHD?

Karen Doherty 7:40 I think it's possibly the most difficult thing. The most difficult challenge to the relationships is the emotional dysregulation. There are tools, obviously, that we, that we work with with couples to sort of recognize it and take time out, um, because once it's triggered, and if there is a sort of a stimulatory escalation, if, if the partner doesn't know what's going on and doesn't realize that there's stimulation being s- being sought and then enters into the ring, if they both get in the ring, and it's like a twister, it just, it just goes.

Alex Partridge 8:10 Is there a particular type of emotional dysregulation that you see cropping up time and time again e- with your clients in their relationships?

Karen Doherty 8:17 RSD, I, I think is probably the most, the most known, the one that people talk about. It's that, it's that being triggered by hearing a criticism or a rejection in an unintentional comment of the partner.

Alex Partridge 8:30 Mm.

Karen Doherty 8:31 And that's, it's, it's quite serious because some people, that's a visceral reaction. It's a, it's, it's a felt reaction. Um, and it takes time to recover from it. You're nodding. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 8:42 Yeah. [laughs]

Karen Doherty 8:43 You know that one.

Alex Partridge 8:44 Oh, absolutely.

Karen Doherty 8:44 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 8:45 Yeah. I mean, it, it's, it's, it's debilitating. Where, where does it come from, do you think?

Karen Doherty 8:50 ADHD is ... The, you know, an ADHD psyche is just intense and passionate, isn't it? You can't take that away from it. That's the beauty of it. That's why it's fabulous to work with. It's why it's fabulous to be around, but you know, it comes at a cost, so there is, there is, there, there is a very, very high sensitivity level.

Alex Partridge 9:07 If you are someone with ADHD, you know this RSD is, is a thing that you suffer with, and you're going on, you're dating. Is that something you should bring up in the early stages?

Karen Doherty 9:16 I think so. I, a- again, I think that communication from early on, as I was saying earlier, you know, the younger couples that I see who come in and they know this stuff, they, they understand it, they've got far more chance of making a really good fist of the relationship. So the more open and honest, the more tolerant pe- the more tolerant people can be.

Alex Partridge 9:35 Mm.

Karen Doherty 9:35 Oh, okay, that's, I wondered why he did that. I wondered why he went off in a huff like that. You know, oh, God, yeah, okay. I, he's a bit, feeling a bit triggered, so that's all right. He'll come back 'cause i- if it's, if it's managed well, it doesn't have to have a lasting impact. If it doesn't get to the extent of absolute debilitation, it doesn't have to, it doesn't have to, um, to last.

Alex Partridge 9:58 Mm.

Karen Doherty 9:58 You know, it can subside pretty quickly if it's managed well.

Alex Partridge 10:01 When I say debilitating, it, it, it is for me, um, in, in the short to medium term.

Karen Doherty 10:06 That's right.

Alex Partridge 10:06 I now know from experience to not do anything or act on it when I'm in that moment of extreme dysregulation and to remove myself from the situation-

Karen Doherty 10:16 Yeah

Alex Partridge 10:16 ... because otherwise I might say something that I'll regret, and that is gonna cause me further anxiety down the line. Do you have any tips for anyone with ADHD on h- on how they might manage their RSD in relationships?

Karen Doherty 10:27 Well, we have, you know, there's, there's, there's sort of techniques, pe- uh, couples developing codes between them.

Alex Partridge 10:33 Mm.

Karen Doherty 10:33 Um, trusting each other enough to be able to give a signal. You all right? You know, just a little signal, a tap, or a code word that they use in private to sort of avoid the escalations. Interestingly, the partners can usually see the dysregulation before the, the neurodiverse partner. The partners can feel it coming. These relationships, they can develop an eggshell type feel to them, and the more neurotypical partners are very, very hypervigilant around it. Um, so if you can identify that and, and help the neurotypical partner to be able to sort of be confident enough to say, "Hey, come on," um, or call a code word, and that both of them, both of them, um, both of them will agree that the code word is for the couple, not that it's you being used to shut anybody up or close anybody down. It's being used for the benefit of the couple so that the couple can walk away and then reconvene a bit later.

Alex Partridge 11:34 Mm.

Karen Doherty 11:34 'Cause nine times out of 10, what happens, what my couples report is that if they avoid it, it's usually forgotten quite quickly. It's, it's a momentary thing. It's a transitory thing. It's usually forgotten quite quickly, and then we have a process conversation the next day where the triggers can sometimes be remembered, and a couple can build up a lexicon of triggers working together at it, and it does work.

Alex Partridge 12:00 Mm.

Karen Doherty 12:01 It stops that, it stops those escalations, those fights that you were talking about that's, you know, that are c- common features of relationships with ADHD. Can, it can really help calm them down, but it takes two.

Alex Partridge 12:15 So easy to get into a spiral with the RSD if you do act- ... impulsively out, if you, if you act on a, on a trigger. 'Cause then you can lash out. In response to that, your partner says something back. That further flares the RSD, and it very quickly can spiral into a very impulsive act at the end of it, like, "I'm moving out," or, "I want a divorce."

Karen Doherty 12:39 Yes.

Alex Partridge 12:39 And in that moment, some crazy impulsive decisions can happen. But I've never got that far, but I can see how it can. And actually, if you just left, put some time between, then that, that would never happen. Oh, you, you would come back with your tail between your legs-

Karen Doherty 12:52 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 12:53 ... and be like, "I didn't mean what I said" [laughs]

Karen Doherty 12:54 That's right

Alex Partridge 12:54 ... an hour ago. I don't wanna, I don't wanna b- break up. I don't want a divorce. I'm sorry. I didn't mean that.

Karen Doherty 13:00 See, that's, that's, that was, that, that's a really common pattern where, um, things are said that hurt. Things are said that stick, and they stick more with the neurotypical, interestingly. The, a lot of my work is around actually helping the couples let go of the resentment that's built up as in the aftermath of those, of those arguments.

Alex Partridge 13:23 If you are someone who is feeling guilty about saying something in one of those flare-ups, you've, you have lashed out, you have given into that impulse, and you've said something, and now that haunts you, what you said. You didn't mean it, and you've said sorry, but you st- you still feel immensely weighted with guilt. Do you have any advice for someone in that situation?

Karen Doherty 13:44 That's really hard for somebody to let go of it, especially a neurodiverse person, because they feel everything so acutely. So it is really difficult. I think that that is another, another feature of a really healthy relationship, that you could, that somebody could take that to their partner and say, you know, "This, I, I just, this guilt is, is crippling me." But there's also another bit to it that you have to recognize, or the AD- the ADHD or the neuro- neurodiverse person has to recognize, that that's a conflated sense of guilt. It's, it's not real. It's, it's intense, and it's conflated, and you have to be a- able to, to be able to see that and stand back from it a bit to manage it better, not let it, not let it swamp you.

Alex Partridge 14:29 Do you think there's some value to admit and to accept that it wasn't your fault? And does that go some way to removing the shame and the guilt if you say, "Actually, yes, I said that when I was in that dysregulated state of rage, but actually I wasn't probably reacting to what you said or did. I was probably reacting because what you said or did snapped my nervous system back to a trauma that happened years ago"?

Karen Doherty 14:57 That's not an ADHD thing. You know, anybody can be triggered by a trauma from their past, so it's not just an ADHD thing. That's, that's, that's us. That's, as, as a species, we can be triggered. The neurodiverse response is probably more intense to it. Again, I think that if a couple understand what's going on, then it takes the heat out of it a little bit, but both of you will have your, both of you will have your triggers. The key to this is to, is the management of those, of being triggered. Because, yes, of course a couple can go through a phase, t- a year, two years, three years learning how to manage, how to manage these symptoms or traits or behaviors, triggers. But eventually, you have to take responsibility for it, don't you? The, the individuals in the couple and the couple itself has to take a responsibility, and it doesn't matter whether it's ADHD or a past trauma. Have to take responsibility for the here and now, and that you want the relationship to remain healthy.

Alex Partridge 16:01 How does somebody go about, what's the first step someone might take in taking responsibility for those, those responses?

Karen Doherty 16:10 Owning them, understanding them, sharing them, communicating them, all of those things to the partner and with the partner help, help take out, um, the, the damage, the potential damage that that can cause.

Alex Partridge 16:28 The success stories you've seen within ADHD couples, can you see any common similarities between the success stories?

Karen Doherty 16:34 It's both need, both want it to be successful. Both want to learn. Both want to work. Neither of them want to, to leave. Um, but there is... It- it's an interesting tipping point, um, if a couple has been in a very vicious pattern or cycle for many, many years, that it might be quite hard to let go of, uh, of those years of resentment and hurt.

Alex Partridge 16:58 I read a scary statistic that divorce rates amongst the ADHD community is 66%, which I think is considerably higher than the neurotypical community. Why do you think that might be?

Karen Doherty 17:12 Well, um, it was because these relationships are really hard work. They, they, you know, they don't, they don't just flow. They are either really, really good, or they can be pretty, pretty difficult to manage, you know, that rollercoaster of emotional ups, downs, great, bad, all of that. I'm not sure that statistic is absolutely correct anymore. As I said earlier, actually, I think, um, that it was potentially very correct, but if I think about the younger couples that I'm seeing now that come in, they've got their diagnosis, they want their marriages to work, they've got every possibility of it working. So I, I, I... My hope, my hope and my belief is that the divorce rate won't be that, that, there won't be that great discrepancy between neurotypical and, uh, mixed, you know, neurodiverse relationships.

Alex Partridge 18:10 Mm. Based on what you've seen, do you think there's a higher prevalence of infidelity and cheating amongst partners who have ADHD?

Karen Doherty 18:19 Possibly I don't really like to commit to that. I don't want to, I don't wanna tar the ADHD community with that brush. I, possibly. Um, we know, we know that, that there is a difficulty with, um, with, with, with, with staying s- with, with staying stimulated intellectually, psychically. There's a difficulty. And relate- And, you know, relationships, you get to know somebody, it can be pretty much the same. So we know that. But, you know, if you're asking anybody why there is, um, why there is extramarital sex, there's gotta be other reasons. There are other reasons as well, you know. Uh, it's not just that the ADHD is driving them out. Um, the relationship itself, there's something, there's a crack somewhere. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 19:11 What are the biggest cracks, then, that you see in your clinic? What, what, what do people come with you, what's the first thing they say when you sit down with them?

Karen Doherty 19:16 "Can you stop us ... Can you help us stop fighting?"

Alex Partridge 19:19 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 19:19 "I can't stand her. Can you please [laughs] can you please tell her she's ADHD?"

Alex Partridge 19:24 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 19:24 [laughs] "He's, he's definitely autistic. Definitely. Can you tell him, please?"

Alex Partridge 19:29 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 19:30 [laughs] I could go on. That happens all the time. Um, but mainly, people are genuinely, genuinely needing help. They want, they want to, they want to change the repetitive, vicious cycles and patterns that are, that are hurting them, they're hurting their kids, they're hurting their, their whole lives. They're affecting the quality of their lives.

Alex Partridge 19:53 How do they do that?

Karen Doherty 19:54 They look for help. They, they do a lot of, a lot of research. I mean, that's incredible for neuro- ne- neurodiverse-

Alex Partridge 20:01 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 20:02 ... population research is their sort of ... You know, it's their comfy place, isn't it? It's their comfy chair. So there's a lot of research gone into it. But, you know, the research is one thing, but actually working with somebody like me in, in a, in a room, that's very different, you know, when you're actually having to ... The, y- y- it's, it's not, you, you can't accuse somebody of it. You're working in the moment. You're getting somebody to actually look at it. So, identify the bit that the ADHD is playing, but also, what are you two doing? What are you actually doing here? We can see the ADHD is impacting here, but how are you responding? Can you do something differently?

Alex Partridge 20:35 What

Alex Partridge 20:36 else could someone do if they're trying to recognize toxic or unhealthy patterns in their relationship? What, what research, what could they, what signs could they look out for?

Karen Doherty 20:45 Are people living separate, parallel lives? Um, n- of course everybody needs, uh, autonomy and freedom within their relationship, but that sort of, that, that, that, that, that space between them getting bigger and bigger, and that is a feature, actually, of neurodiverse relationships. When they haven't been diagnosed and they haven't got any help, very often, the, the more neurotypical will just pull away. The neurodiverse part of the relationship h- is, is very, you know this, it's very able to look after itself, entertain itself. It's very, it, there's lots of ideas and creativity, so it's quite, it's quite happy on its own sometimes, a lot of the time. That leaves the spouse or the, the, the partner quite lonely. A- and if they pull back too much, then that space opens up, and very often, that is ... I, if, if you're asking me about the primary, the primary issue that, um, these relationships really have to deal with, it's, it's where there is a lack of intimate reciprocity, and I don't mean sex, I mean intimacy. I mean chatting, joshing. That l- that lack of reciprocity where they're, where one person is cut off a bit too much too often. Um, you've got classics, haven't you? Sort of going upstairs, uh, working all night.

Alex Partridge 22:06 Mm.

Karen Doherty 22:06 Not, not in, not interacting, or maybe not being able to ... Lot, lots of the issues are, are, are related to the, the, the emotional state, actually, of the more neurodiverse, because something may be planned in the diary, but they may not just feel like doing it. [laughs] And that's, that's a problem, because the other one has been looking forward to doing it for ages. Um, and so you've got this, you've got this co- potential conflict here about, "Oh, I don't know if I can do it. I don't feel well. I'm, I, I'm not up to it tonight. I can't do it." So where do ... You have to somehow broker compromises around th- this stuff so that it doesn't, it doesn't cause these rifts-

Alex Partridge 22:48 Mm

Karen Doherty 22:48 ... and the s- and the s- the, the separate lives.

Alex Partridge 22:51 Do you see a parent/child dynamic sometimes when there's an, an ADHD person in a relationship with a non-ADHD person?

Karen Doherty 22:59 I have a different take on it, really. I think it comes down to, um, a couple fit, right? So we talk about couple fits. Why are people, why are people attracted to each other? What brings them in? Why, why do they fit together? And one of the things that I have noticed over the years in practice is that these neurodiverse couples have a sort of a, there's a, there's a, there's a common couple fit. It'll be with a neurodiverse AS or, or ADHD pairing up with quite a capable, quite a capable other. They'll be maybe successful, but very good at life. The neurot- neurodiverse is brilliant, obviously. They've got brilliance, they've got ideas, creativity, wherever their mathematical genius, whatever, wherever their, their bent is. And they'll pair up or choose somebody who has life skills, because that's not so good for them. But what happens is that that person also has a vulnerability. Those life skills have been developed very often from being early adultized. They've had a lot of trauma in their lives. The neurotypical has had a quite lot of trauma. But they've built the defenses, and they've managed, and they've made that, they, they've sort of come through, and they've, they made themselves successful. But you have these two vulnerable people coming together. Where the parent/child comes in is that this one is good at life, so seems like at the beginning they can see that this one's not quite so good at life, the neuro- neurodiverse is not quite so good at, and it's easy for them to do it. It's easy. It's easy to plan a holiday, whereas the neurodiverse, mm, planning, don't like it. Timing, don't like it, or I'm not sure I want to go there.

Alex Partridge 24:41 Mm.

Karen Doherty 24:41 Whereas the other one can do it. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of... But in the beginning of the relationships, there's a lot of good nature around it, and a, "Okay, well, I'll do that. You do that." And it, it, it sort of, it starts off quite equal. They both get a bit of what they need from each other. But as it goes on, as it goes on, the, the more capable gets overloaded, es- particularly when children come in, and they, they find themselves having to do much more of the drudgery, much more of the relentlessness that goes with domesticity. And that, I think, is where the, the sort of name parent/child comes in, is that they have to step up, and that actually, when they... There's an inequality then, a real inequality, and that's what breaks, that's what breaks down. That what, that's what breaks the couples.

Alex Partridge 25:29 Is that resentment?

Karen Doherty 25:30 Oh, huge resentment, anger, sadness, loneliness, um, frustration, uh, and just actually exhaustion.

Alex Partridge 25:40 A- and is there a point where once you go beyond that, it's too far and there's no fixing it?

Karen Doherty 25:46 Yes.

Alex Partridge 25:46 Or can the neurodivergent person make changes?

Karen Doherty 25:51 It's like any couple though, Alex. You know, push it too far and it can't be fixed, but you hope, you hope that people come in, neurodiverse or, or neurotypical, you hope that people come in before that point.

Alex Partridge 26:03 And the warning signs would be similar to what you said earlier, rows, outbursts.

Karen Doherty 26:07 Or, or absolute disconnection.

Alex Partridge 26:09 Mm.

Karen Doherty 26:10 Absolute withdrawal, disconnection, and I don't mean withdrawal in the sense of a neurodiverse person moving away because they're overwhelmed, but I mean proper withdrawal on both parts, just that breakdown, the inability to actually come together.

Alex Partridge 26:25 The neurodivergent person might look lazy some days-

Karen Doherty 26:30 Mm

Alex Partridge 26:30 ... when in actual fact they might just be overwhelmed. So-

Karen Doherty 26:34 Well, or, or, or feeling genuinely lethargic, feeling generally as if they can't move. You know, that fogginess in the morning-

Alex Partridge 26:41 Mm

Karen Doherty 26:41 ... that they can't get out of bed. Um, they need [laughs] some need their meds before they get out of bed. Some, you know, some people wake up to take meds just to get them going. That's, that, those are physiological, they're physi- physiological reasons.

Alex Partridge 26:55 Mm.

Karen Doherty 26:55 They're not... Nobody's lazy.

Alex Partridge 26:57 No. And so how can the neurotypical partner, that's important that they spot that that isn't laziness, and that is for other reasons.

Karen Doherty 27:05 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 27:05 So what signs can the neurotypical person look for to see that it is an overwhelmed person rather than someone who's lazy?

Karen Doherty 27:13 Again, it's knowledge. Knowledge is power, isn't it? You know, oh, there he is in bed again. I'm not taking him a cup of tea. It's just too much. Actually, oh, I love him. He's having a bad day.

Alex Partridge 27:23 Mm.

Karen Doherty 27:23 He's not having one of those days. I keep saying him, but it could be her. It could be her. It's not just, oh, always him.

Alex Partridge 27:28 Mm.

Karen Doherty 27:28 Having a bad day. Okay, so let's give him another hour. It, it, it's all comes down to knowledge, compassion, and communication.

Alex Partridge 27:36 Mm. Do you think masking... 'Cause I suppose if you're masking early on, then there's a higher chance that your true, authentic, vulnerable self is gonna go unnoticed later on.

Alex Partridge 27:49 Do you think masking early on in a relationship, during the dating phase, is, is a good idea or a bad idea?

Karen Doherty 27:55 It's sort of a defensive strategy, masking, isn't it?

Alex Partridge 27:59 Mm.

Karen Doherty 27:59 Okay? And it's particularly well-developed by neurodiverse personalities, but everybody does it. Everybody pretends in the first, in the early times. Everybody has to put on a show. Very few people are actually confident enough to just be themselves. So I think it's a matter of, um, understanding that if you do want to be, if y- it, the more authentic, the more authentic any one of us is at the beginning of a relationship, the more honest, honesty that can be had in those early days, the more chance you've got of having a, a, a, a better communication.

Alex Partridge 28:41 Do you think it's harder for a neurodivergent person, someone with ADHD or ASD or any neurodivergent condition, do you think it's harder for them to, to show their, uh, true self in that really early stages, because they might have been exposed to more criticism than-

Karen Doherty 29:01 Yeah

Alex Partridge 29:01 ... the neurotypical person throughout their whole life?

Karen Doherty 29:04 Yeah. There's no doubt that, um, and that goes back to my point that I made earlier about the building of core self, you know, and, you know, being, being confident i- in oneself. How is that built? How as a species do we build that? It's positive reinforcement, isn't it? And neurodiverse, neurodiverse experience to date, and I think that that tide has turned, but I think lots of people to date have had a lot of negativity and challenges and misunderstanding in their, in their li- in their early lives that have left them fragile and not confident about themselves. Um, and I think the neurodiverse population has probably had more of that than the neurotypical. Um, but I don't, I don't know that that's gonna be... I don't know that that's the way forward.

Alex Partridge 29:52 Mm.

Karen Doherty 29:52 I think neurodiversity is much more, um, a- accepted, understood, and known about. So hopefully that's not gonna be quite so, so bad for [laughs] for young people coming through.

Alex Partridge 30:05 Absolutely. I think there's a lot of more awareness, acceptance, all which makes... A- all of this stuff makes it much easier for-

Karen Doherty 30:12 Yeah

Alex Partridge 30:12 ... people with neurodiversity to, A, recognize that they're masking. I think lots of people were probably masking unknowingly for a long time.

Karen Doherty 30:19 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 30:19 Not even knowing, that they were trying to shape-shift, mirror- Bend who they are to satisfy, please the person that they're with.

Karen Doherty 30:27 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 30:27 Now people know that, so that's what the first step, right, is you can't change something if you don't know it's happening in the first place. Um,

Alex Partridge 30:34 from your experience in your clinic, do you think, from a neurotypical person's point of view, do you think ADHD people are difficult to live with?

Karen Doherty 30:42 Oh, come on, I can't answer that. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 30:44 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 30:45 No, I don't think they're difficult to live with. They are... Well, they can be. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 30:52 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 30:52 They can be. Can be. Um, obviously there, it's a challenge for, for a relationship. A- and neurodiversity is a challenge for a relationship, okay? It's a challenge in, on, on many, many, many levels. But you, i- if, if you, if you commit in and know that you're in a neurodiverse relationship, you know, the highs are really high. There's some brilliance that goes with it. Um, and you can mitigate the lows with the education, with the, with the strategies, with the, um, with the knowledge. You can mitigate the lows. But it's not, it's n- it, it, it is a challenge. It is a challenge.

Alex Partridge 31:33 Mm.

Karen Doherty 31:33 Undiagnosed, unfettered, it's a challenge.

Alex Partridge 31:36 Yeah. No, I think it is, but like you said, I think there's also positives, lots of positives.

Karen Doherty 31:41 Of course.

Alex Partridge 31:42 S-

Karen Doherty 31:42 Yeah

Alex Partridge 31:42 ... spontaneity. We're always very... Well, not always, but we're very, we can be very fun. [laughs]

Karen Doherty 31:47 Very much fun.

Alex Partridge 31:48 And very, and positivity is, is a good thing. We're going on holiday, we're not going on holiday in a week, we're going on holiday tonight. [laughs]

Karen Doherty 31:54 That's right. It's fun. It's really good fun, and people get attracted to that. You know when you were talking about the, the parent/child?

Alex Partridge 32:00 Mm-hmm.

Karen Doherty 32:00 That neurotypical who was early adultized and has had to be grown up since they were eight, you know, they love that side of it. That's what they're, that's what they're drawn to, the fun, the charm, the charisma, the, the passion, all of those good things.

Alex Partridge 32:15 Mm.

Karen Doherty 32:15 Yeah, that's exactly what they're drawn to. So it's, don't ever, don't ever think about the negatives not being outweighed by the positives.

Alex Partridge 32:23 Mm.

Karen Doherty 32:24 We've just got to manage the negatives.

Alex Partridge 32:27 Yeah, absolutely. You know, the, the sensitivity that is responsible for the RSD is also what's responsible for making them love you as hard as they do.

Karen Doherty 32:35 Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 32:35 And to probably be incredibly loyal.

Karen Doherty 32:38 Yes. It's a feature.

Alex Partridge 32:40 So you've gotta take the-

Karen Doherty 32:41 It's huge, huge loyalty

Alex Partridge 32:42 ... with huge sensitivity comes responsibility, but also huge loyalty and love.

Karen Doherty 32:46 It does. It does. I see loads and loads of couples that are really, really... One of the, one of, one of the things, when people come in, you say, "Okay, what did you see in her?" "She was just safe. She was stable. She was, she, she, she felt loyal. I, I never thought that she was going to, um, cheat on me." That's really common. That neurodiversity is, is very, very secure in its own way. It's, it doesn't, it doesn't want to play around. It doesn't want to... It finds a base, and it wants to stay there. It wants to attach.

Alex Partridge 33:18 One of the questions I h- I get quite a lot from my community with, with relationship and ADHD management is that they love their partner deeply, and they can see a future with them, but they're bored, right? They're, they're just not getting the excitement. And not to say that that's at a catastrophic level that they're gonna s- look for it elsewhere, but they want to try and ignite some excitement and some joy because it's, it has gone. That's what, that's what I've been told. If, if someone h- has ADHD, and they're in a loving relationship, but they're s- they, they're, they're bored, what would you, advice would you give to someone in that situation?

Karen Doherty 33:57 Bored? Bored with what?

Alex Partridge 33:59 Spending time with their partner no longer excites them.

Karen Doherty 34:02 That's a bit tricky, isn't it? That, that, that's too tricky and too simple. It can't be just spending time with their partner bores them. There has to be, if they, if they love them and want to, want to be in a relationship with them, there has to be some creativity around that. There just has to be. Because the, the, the partner itself is the same as it ever was. I mean, everybody gets bored in relationships. Everybody, neurotypicals and neurodiverse. It's the work of that couple to, to, to, to, to, to help moderate it. Um, I don't think it just falls to the ADHD to be, to, to, to not be bored. I think it's, I think it's a couple thing. You know, if you're bored, okay, so what, where, where are the projects? Where are the, where are the joint projects? Where are your individual projects? How do you manage that boredom? What do you need? How much stimulation do you need? I mean, one of the biggest, one of the biggest problems that I encounter with the couples is that the, the neurodiverse is never bored because it's always working. It's always working. The work drive is, is phenomenal. Um, and that's how they waylay the boredom, actually.

Alex Partridge 35:10 Mm.

Karen Doherty 35:10 Um, they're not sitting at home twiddling their thumbs or watching Netflix. They're working. That's one of the, that's a bigger issue, I think, than sort of people feeling, saying they're bored.

Alex Partridge 35:19 Communication, do you think that's a staple of a healthy relationship?

Karen Doherty 35:23 It's the, it's the fundamental basis on which it's all built.

Alex Partridge 35:27 And do you think you should communicate with your partner if you are feeling that there's a lack of stimulation during a particular month or day? Do you think you should voice that concern with your partner?

Karen Doherty 35:39 Yeah. Yes. It's not partner's fault. It's you, it's you that's feeling it. It's not the partner's fault. You know, with a bit of luck, they'll send you off with your backpack, go and do something. I don't know, climb a wall or do something.

Alex Partridge 35:49 Mm.

Karen Doherty 35:49 Keep you out, keep yourself out of trouble. [laughs] It doesn't have to be the end of the world. It, but it, it needs, it needs to be known because that's a feature, isn't it? You're, that's a feature of the makeup. That's a feature of the, the, the psyche, that it needs, it needs stimulation. It needs to be able to be free. It needs to be able to, to, to explore.

Alex Partridge 36:09 Mm.

Karen Doherty 36:09 Needs to be able to do this stuff. So that has to be communicated, and a spouse or a partner needs to be on board with that.

Alex Partridge 36:16 Every week, I ask my Instagram community to give me their woes, and I put it in a washing machine. It's called the Washing machine of woes.

Karen Doherty 36:24 Oh my God. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 36:25 I thought we're gonna do this now. We'll see what they've said. Let me, let me have a look. I wrote down a couple. What kind of partner does an ADHD w- woman need?

Karen Doherty 36:36 What kind of partner does an ADHD woman need? See, [sighs] what kind of partner does that woman need? Not just because she's ADHD. What kind of partner does she need? Is she, you know, is she creative ADHD? Is she, is she quiet AD- I mean, such a ... Uh, uh ... What kind of partner does she need? I don't know. I, I wouldn't even know how-

Alex Partridge 36:58 Mm

Karen Doherty 36:58 ... where to start with that. Who do ADHD women really thrive with is people who are stable, who can ... Female ADHD is, is very challenging, very challenging, very mercurial. Um, it's very introverted rather than extroverted, so it's, it, it, it needs to be able to communicate. It needs somebody who can hold it. It needs somebody secure and stable, but then most, most of us need that. So, um, I wouldn't be able to draw a picture of-

Alex Partridge 37:28 Mm

Karen Doherty 37:28 ... the type of person that an ADHD woman would want, except somebody, you know-

Alex Partridge 37:31 Yeah. Very, very individualistic. You need to, we need to know more about-

Karen Doherty 37:34 Yes

Alex Partridge 37:34 ... h- the person. [laughs]

Karen Doherty 37:34 Of course.

Alex Partridge 37:35 Yeah.

Karen Doherty 37:35 You can't just ident- just be ... I-

Alex Partridge 37:37 Mm

Karen Doherty 37:37 ... ADHD isn't the identity. Who are you? Yes, you've got ADHD, but who are you? Relationships are impacted by this stuff, but they're not the whole, they're not the whole person.

Alex Partridge 37:46 Mm.

Karen Doherty 37:47 They're not the whole thing, and I think that gets lost a lot on social media. I think everybody, you know, the ... It's become an identity. I'm an adder. I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm AS. And actually, you're a person.

Alex Partridge 37:59 Mm.

Karen Doherty 38:00 Your neuro- y- your neurobiology is slightly different, but you're a person. You come with all of that, you know. You come with, um ... W- What we didn't talk about was how, was working through two lenses, the double, the dual lens of, you know, the, the couple th- the classical couple therapeutic approach, and then the more in-the-moment behavioral approach, identifying the traits of the neurodiversity that impact the couple, and how, how, how that is a really good way to work with these couples. We didn't, we didn't talk about that. Um, rather than just, rather than just cl- plain ... The courses that I offer, the first six, are sort of identifying how the neurodiversity has impacted the dy- the couple dynamic, and then the, the second six is actually looking at the, the, the, the history, the background, 'cause so many people come in c- in crisis. You ... I sort of have to deal with the behaviors, the escalations, the fights, the viciousness, the silences, the withdrawal. I have to deal with the actual traits, the behaviors, and the cycles, the cycles. That's got to be my first point of call so that you can get people actually calmed down and talking to each other. And then the second, the second course, 'cause I only really work short term, but the second course is more about the integration of those behavioral traits with the, with the family histories, with the geniogram, with the, with the psychodynamic histories of where they've both come from, 'cause you've got a couple in the room, and you ... Well, you have m- you could have 100 people in the room, you know, both sides, the families, the extended families, the friends. You've got a lot of people in the room. So it's not just the ADHD. You've gotta look at that.

Alex Partridge 39:37 Mm.

Karen Doherty 39:37 But it's how you do it.

Alex Partridge 39:39 Karen, if you had three tips on how to make a marriage work, what would they be?

Karen Doherty 39:45 The first one is the, the communication is, is essential. Um, you have to hold onto your own lives, not just merge. You have to have the, you have to be able to dance. You have to be able to be autonomous and then absolutely dependent. It's that dance, and you've got to get it right. Too much of either or the other, and you don't, you don't ... It, it doesn't fit. It doesn't make the couple thrive. The couple doesn't thrive. [sniffs] And the third one, I think, is don't take it all so seriously. You know, just have fun with it. You've got to have fun in a relat- In life, you've gotta have fun, but when a relationship, with the relentlessness of it, you somet- you just need a really good sense of humor, actually.

Alex Partridge 40:24 [laughs]

Karen Doherty 40:25 I'm afraid to say [laughs] you do.

Alex Partridge 40:27 Just finally, Karen,

Alex Partridge 40:29 what's three positive things that a neurodivergent person could bring to a relationship?

Karen Doherty 40:33 God, only three? There's so many, but the top three. Okay. I think, um, always bringing home something new. There's always something different going on, and that's, that's really stimulating for the [laughs] neurotypical or the partner. Neurodiverse or neurotypical, there's always something new. The, the authenticity and passion that comes with, um, neurodiversity, there's a real, there's a real purity and passion about it. And, and thirdly, it's just really good fun, just really good fun. Just brings, just brings fun into people's lives.

Alex Partridge 41:12 Yes, gosh, certainly does. Karen, thank you so much. Really enjoyed this.

Karen Doherty 41:16 Thank you. Thanks for having me. [upbeat music]