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The 4 Types Of Autistic Masking (97% of People Only Know The 1st Type)

Do you want to know what autistic masking actually feels like from the inside? Dr Carly Jones MBE is one of the world’s leading autistic advocates. Diagnosed as autistic in adulthood after both of her daughters were diagnosed, she has spent nearly two decades improving the lives of autistic people through policy, education and lived experience. In this episode, Carly explains what masking actually feels like from the inside, why so many autistic people learn to hide who they are from childhood, and the emotional cost of spending years pretending to be someone else. Together, we explore people pleasing, self-abandonment, loneliness, burnout, and the difficult journey of discovering who you really are after decades of masking. Chapters: 00:00 Trailer 01:56 The Mask You Didn't Know You Were Wearing 09:31 Is Your Brain Protecting You Without You Knowing? 11:42 The Childhood Moment You Learn It's Safer Not To Be Yourself 14:50 What Rejection Does To The Autistic Brain 18:23 Mask #1 22:25 The Day You Stopped Showing What You Loved 27:01 Mask #2 30:19 When People Pleasing Stops Being Kindness And Becomes Survival 34:25 The Moment You Start Abandoning Yourself 37:29 Tiimo advert 38:48 Mask #3 41:39 What If You're So Good At Reading People... You Forget Who You Are? 43:34 Mask #4 46:43 How People Can Think You're Fine While You're Falling Apart 48:28 The Loneliness Nobody Talks About In Autism 51:07 The Warning Signs Your Mask Is About To Break 57:49 How To Start Taking The Mask Off (Without Losing Yourself) 01:01:19 Why Letting Go Of The Mask Feels So Terrifying 01:08:37 How To Know What's Really You... And What's Just Survival 01:11:47 The Lie Neurodivergent People Blame Themselves For 01:16:27 "I Don't Know Who I Am Anymore." 01:18:50 A Letter To My Younger Self Visit Carly’s website 👉 https://drcarlyjonesmbe.uk Find Carly on Instagram 👉 https://www.instagram.com/drcarlyjonesmbe/ Get 30% off an annual Tiimo subscription 👉 https://www.tiimoapp.com/offers/adhdchatter Buy Alex's Sunday Times Best-selling book entitled 'Now It All Makes Sense' 👉 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-All-Makes-Sense-Diagnosis/dp/1399817817 Buy Alex's No.1 Sunday Times Best-selling book about Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria 👉 https://linktr.ee/adhdchatter?utm_source=linktree_profile_share&ltsid=9ffd8709-06df-444c-9936-c136fbd14d6e Producer: Timon Woodward  Recorded by: Hamlin Studios Trailer editor: Ryan Faber DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Alex PartridgehostDr. Carly Jonesguest
Jul 27, 20261h 20mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:56

    Trailer

    1. AP

      Why do you think people with ADHD or autism apologize all the time?

    2. CJ

      Saying sorry is a really good kind of small print in case I messed it up. Even if I don't think I'd messed anything up, that disclaimer to say, "Uh, I'm not sure if I got this right, so I'm going to apologize anyway," which then is really tricky because people know that you're going to take the blame for anything.

    3. AP

      When does people pleasing become a survival response rather than just being kind?

    4. CJ

      Something I see a lot in neurodivergent women and men is the fawning, which is beyond kindness. I'm going to pretend everything is fine in order to escape this situation when it's safe to do so.

    5. AP

      But if the autistic person isn't being truly themselves, the version of themselves that's receiving all of that input from the world isn't actually reaching them. Is that a unique experience of loneliness?

    6. CJ

      The masks might be like a guard to protect you, but it's also-

    7. AP

      Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Carly, so good to have you back.

    8. CJ

      Thank you for having me back. I feel very relaxed, as you can see by my arm up here.

    9. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    10. CJ

      And I'm taking my shoes off.

    11. AP

      They're so comfortable, right?

    12. CJ

      Yeah.

    13. AP

      The s- the chairs. Four types of autistic masking. I've been doing this podcast for three years, and I had no idea that there were four types of autistic masking, and we're gonna talk about them. And, and it's the fourth one that I think is the most exhausting. Having looked at the research for this episode, I think it's the one that can look like confidence, it's the one that can look like success, but I think it's also the one that can actually be the most damaging in terms of how it can lead to burnout.

    14. CJ

      Yeah.

    15. AP

      But before we get to the four types of masking,

  2. 1:56 – 9:31

    The Mask You Didn't Know You Were Wearing

    1. AP

      when you hear the term masking, you often think of someone pretending to be someone else.

    2. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AP

      But that's not really what masking is, is it?

    4. CJ

      No, I think if we kind of look historically, perhaps like the Scooby-Doo character, it w- would always end, wouldn't it, as the mask would come off-

    5. AP

      Yes

    6. CJ

      ... and, oh, look, it was actually the villain-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. CJ

      ... pretending to be someone else. So there's that kind of, um, myth, I think, that it's about pretending to be somebody else for, for ill intent, um, and, and it's, it's, it's not. Masking is a survival technique to hide your vulnerability and to keep you safe. It's not done with, with malice [laughs] or, um, or forgery. It's, it's purely to, to survive, um, or to feel that, that you're fitting in.

    9. AP

      I keep thinking of these, the Scooby-Doo analogy. That's brilliant. Like, the villain, and he, he always said, right, like, "I... And I would've gotten, gotten away with it too-

    10. CJ

      [laughs]

    11. AP

      ... if it wasn't for those meddling kids."

    12. CJ

      Yeah. [laughs]

    13. AP

      I suppose the ADHD or autistic masking is, like, do you think people feel like they're getting away with the masking, or do you think they, they're aware that some people might be able to see through it?

    14. CJ

      I think at first you don't really know you're masking-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. CJ

      ... from a younger age, and you m- must just assume that, I know I certainly did, assume that that's what everybody does, and everyone goes home exhausted, and everyone's been struggling with this, and no one's actually really looking forward to doing this. Like, you know, no one's having to spend days to prepare either mentally or [laughs] or, or, or physically or, or perhaps with clothing and, and makeup or hair extensions. As you see, I have arrived unmasked today.

    17. AP

      [laughs]

    18. CJ

      I, I read the questions and I was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna have to leave those hair extensions and eyelashes at home today because, um, I'd feel like a massive hypocrite." And then I'd be s- sat here, wouldn't I? And you'd be going, "Carly, do you think people realize when they're masked?" And I'd be like, "Yeah."

    19. AP

      [laughs]

    20. CJ

      "I'm busted." [laughs] "I'm totally busted." But I think at first, particularly in childhood or in the teenage years, you don't realize that's what you're doing because it's going to be on a kind of, um, a very physical and sensory level, that masking.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. CJ

      When I got my autism diagnosis, and we're talking about masking, we're trying to go as far back as we could remember. Um, and funny story to my mother, I was at nursery, and there was this girl, and I really wanted to be friends with her. I think she might have had a Care Bears top or, or Rainbow Bright top or something like.

    23. AP

      [laughs]

    24. CJ

      And her name was Sophie.

    25. AP

      Right.

    26. CJ

      And I really wanted to... And I can remember this really well. I really wanted to be friends with Sophie, and I asked her her name, and she said, "Sophie." And I said, "Oh, I've got a sofa," 'cause I thought she said sofa. And then at that, at that point, I can remember being like-

    27. AP

      [laughs]

    28. CJ

      ... three or four and cringing.

    29. AP

      Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    30. CJ

      And then every time I went to nursery after that, I would hide in a telephone box and pretend to make phone calls every time.

  3. 9:31 – 11:42

    Is Your Brain Protecting You Without You Knowing?

    1. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    2. AP

      But do you think it, it stops becoming a conscious decision over time and starts becoming just an automatic nervous system response to feel safe?

    3. CJ

      I think it becomes so part of our... 'Cause thinking about these ages that we're doing this, right? Kind of four, five, six, seven. Those kind of developmental years. So y- that just becomes who you are. It's part of your, part of your development, and you... And then now as adults, it's hard to go, "Well, actually, that's just always been the way now." I, I really hope he went home and he learned on the stock market-

    4. AP

      [laughs]

    5. CJ

      ... and came to you in the library. That was my first thought, thinking, "I really wish... Wouldn't it be lovely if he also then went to go, 'Do you know what? Um, I wanna talk to Alex, so I need to learn more about the stock market.'" But I... Even at that age, and that's such a beautiful example, it was you doing the homework, literally, in order to people please and support somebody else's wishes for that social interaction, as opposed to it being a, a kind of a two-way street.

    6. AP

      Mm.

    7. CJ

      So you were conforming to somebody else's wants, as opposed to them doing it for you, or both, even at that age.

    8. AP

      Yes. It felt like-

    9. CJ

      So you learned to people please

    10. AP

      ... Exactly. You know, it felt like I was trying to solve the wrong problem.

    11. CJ

      Mm.

    12. AP

      I thought the problem was, what do I need to do in order to fit in?

    13. CJ

      Yeah.

    14. AP

      But I didn't realize that the, the, the more I was answering that question, the less I was understanding who I really was. And I think it's that that can cause so much damage with an AuDHD, an ADHD, an autistic child, if they go through life and they have people pleased so much. And then they're r- They, they become an adult, and they're making decisions with no awareness of who they really are-

    15. CJ

      Yeah

    16. AP

      ... because the question they stopped asking themselves was, "What do I need to do in order to make me happy?" And the, and the question started to become, "What do I need to do in order to make other people happy?" And that's when you start removing your actions from what you truly need in order to be a fulfilled human being.

  4. 11:42 – 14:50

    The Childhood Moment You Learn It's Safer Not To Be Yourself

    1. AP

      What teaches a child to mask? Do you think it is one particular moment, or do you think it is thousands of little comments like, "You're too much. You're too sensitive. Why are you so weird?"

    2. CJ

      It's death by a thousand cuts, isn't it? And, uh, it's... For some people, it might be, like, something that you really remember, and those little examples, like, oh, actually, if I really think about it now as an adult, I can see moments where I was doing that. Um- But it just becomes over, over time, and that trying to fit in, and I think it's just lots and lots of those comments of, "Oh, don't be a drama queen. Oh, stop being so sensitive," or, "Oh, that's a bit odd." Or often people finding things that you do funny. Um, so people go, "Oh, you're so funny." And I'm like, "I wasn't trying to tell a joke. I really completely misunderstood something." I did it recently at work, Alex, and I, um, I was on a call, um, in a health- healthcare environment. I was on a call, and we were talking about how well some of our, uh, apprentices have done and, and, uh, some of them have gone on to work at kind of, uh, Deutsche Bank, JP Morgan, all of this. Really, really cool. And then this, the next part in the, in the conversation was, "Oh, do you know what? Um, w- what we really benefit from is people with bank, with bank experience."

    3. AP

      Mm-hmm.

    4. CJ

      And I said, "Well, we've... What about, you know, we've got links to all of these different banks?" And they went, "No, no, like nurse, banking nurses," like as in bank staff. And I was like, "Oh, right." And they was like, "You're hilarious."

    5. AP

      [laughs]

    6. CJ

      I'm like, "No, I genuinely was really confused," because it, we were just talking about banks, and then we're talking about banking staff.

    7. AP

      Sure, yeah.

    8. CJ

      But I just... And then you, uh, you just laugh about it again, "Oh, yeah, great joke. I'm really funny."

    9. AP

      [laughs]

    10. CJ

      And I'm like, "No, no, I'm, I'm really confused right now."

    11. AP

      Mm.

    12. CJ

      But I can't make out that I'm confused. I mean, I probably could. They'd probably just think it's hilarious that I was that confused. But, um, but you kind of get that a lot, a lot. So then you end up, um, I know we come onto this later, so I won't preempt it, but you become the performer. You're the clown.

    13. AP

      Yes.

    14. CJ

      Because-

    15. AP

      Yes

    16. CJ

      ... if you get it wrong, people think it's really funny.

    17. AP

      Yeah.

    18. CJ

      But actually to us it's like, "Oh, my gosh, I got it really wrong. How embarrassing." And, um, but on the outside, you're just smiling and laughing, going, "Ha," you know? Great, great comedy.

    19. AP

      Yeah. Oh, gosh.

    20. CJ

      Yeah. [laughs]

    21. AP

      Well, you observe human behavior. You, you, you, you're collecting evidence of what is accepted by the world, what gets criticized, what makes people laugh, when to join a conversation, when to walk away from a conversation. It's like everyone else has this kind of rule book of how to socialize, and yet you kind of have to write your own-

    22. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    23. AP

      ... through copying what you observe. And the, the, the road to get that can be quite bumpy. You know, it's sort of trial and error. You watch a human interaction, you watch something happen, and then you decide to reiterate that because you saw that that encounter didn't end up in a criticism. When you're going through that trial and error, when you're conducting your own evidence, what do you

  5. 14:50 – 18:23

    What Rejection Does To The Autistic Brain

    1. AP

      think is happening inside the human brain when they realize that the real version of them isn't accepted?

    2. CJ

      I think that's... it's, that feels horrible, doesn't it? That kind of feeling of, first of all, having to observe everything and almost going, "Okay, it's cause and effect, cause and effect. What happens? What happens this? What's... If I do this, what happens?" Because we're not often, particularly if I'm autistic and ADHD, going to be aware of what that consequence might look like, feel like, sound like. So it's, "Well, I'll just try this." And it's almost, you know, like how comedians do, um, like, "Oh, I'm not sure if this joke's gonna land well, so I'm gonna do a really small gig and I'm gonna test my material." But that's life, and you're just walking through the street or you're, or you're at an event or you're at a wedding or you're at a party or you're at school. Um, and it's kind of like, "I need to test my material here." Um, but that is not meant to be funny. It's just talking to other people-

    3. AP

      Mm

    4. CJ

      ... and seeing what happens. And that feeling of, uh, "Oh, okay, well, I've got it wrong too many times," soul destroying. Soul destroying, because how, how come everyone else is getting it right? Uh, did they have a script? Who, who, who taught them this before they went into the world? Um, how, how come other people are getting it right and I'm getting it wrong, and I'm having to observe and copy to, to get it mildly right?

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. CJ

      Um, unless, of course, you surround yourself with other autistic or ADHD people, uh, in which case, um, nine ti- not always, but nine times out of ten-

    7. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    8. CJ

      ... [laughs] it's, um, it either goes well, or if it doesn't go well, it's-

    9. AP

      Mm

    10. CJ

      ... not judged as much. Um, I think, yeah, soul destroying, and that effect on people's wellbeing, their mental health, their happiness, of wondering, did I get it right? And I try if I can, particularly if I know that I've got, um, friends or if it's somebody I'm working with on a, on a project, um, I will always do the email afterwards. "That was fantastic. That was great. And if there was a part which was a bit tricky, you managed that so well." Um, and I always try to make sure that I get that email or that thank you letter back, um, or a text if it's a friend or a loved one to say, "Gosh, wasn't that fun?" Or, um, so and so... Or, or if someone said to me, you know, "Oh, so and so met you for the first time this weekend, and they thought that you're, um, you know, such a, such a, a kind and fun person to be with." And I always do that because I don't want somebody sat at home the next day kind of going, "Oh, gosh, did I mess it up? Did I get it right?"

    11. AP

      Mm. Yeah. Gosh, I, I think it's so heartbreaking because y- when you're conducting these experiments and you're getting the feedback that a social interaction went well-

    12. CJ

      Mm

    13. AP

      ... like it gets rewarded from the world. You often get comments like, you know, "Oh, Alex, you're, you're really nice," or, you know, "We love your personality." And in my head I'm thinking, "Well, thanks very much. I've just made that up for you." [laughs]

    14. CJ

      [laughs]

    15. AP

      The next person I meet is gonna get a different personality, and the next person's gonna get a different personality, and I don't know who I actually are, am. So you, you, you, you're, you're getting praised and rewarded from the world, so that kind of is addictive in itself, so you do more of it. But with each step of getting closer to what the world wants, you end up losing yourself more and more and more. And as, you know, we'll get onto in a bit, and really going into the four masks now, um, you end up not- ... truly understanding who you are, and at the end of this conversation we're gonna talk about how to unmask and how to bridge that gap between the version that the world sees and who you really are, because that is such a big part of the healing process.

  6. 18:23 – 22:25

    Mask #1

    1. AP

      But the first mask, Carly, I think is often invisible, even to the person wearing it.

    2. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AP

      And the first type of masking is not pretending, it's disappearing. What does that actually look like?

    4. CJ

      Disappearing, so thinking about that on perhaps a, a sensory point of view, um, might be, you know, the fact that, say, um, th- the lighting in here is lovely by the way, 'cause I, being very light sensitive. But let- let's say you're a light sensitive person, and you've got some really flickering lights that they haven't been maintained. That, first of all, that's incredibly dangerous, because that can give you seizures. But, um, it's, it's very, very dangerous in the sense that, that is so painful. But okay, we're at this work conference, and everyone else is sat under it just fine. If I react, I might be the only person in this room that reacts to it, then I'm going to look... Am I gonna look unprofessional? Um, am I going to, um, disrupt things, or are there gonna be delays? Um, and even younger, in young years at school, th- you might not even have the agency to speak up even if you felt you could, which you probably don't.

    5. AP

      Yes, sure.

    6. CJ

      And then there's that, y- you kind of d- the disappearing, the drop in your grades. The I'm just trying to physically survive this situation and not cause a fuss. Um, and so that will start with, "I'm in a lot of pain." Then it will start with, "Oh, I can't do my homework tonight because I'm in agony." Um, you know, the worst migraine you've had times a thousand. For me, I go non-verbal if, if, uh, there are, uh, if I get sensory overwhelm. Um, and then what happens after that? Oh, well, you know, grades are dropping, blah, blah, blah. Not getting into the classes or, or whatever you should be in. Do you know what? Actually, I, I can't bear this anymore, I'm not gonna go to school. I'm gonna start bunking off school. Um, so you start missing school. Then you end up in the wrong crowds, right? Um, and then all sorts of malice c- things can happen. So you, you, you completely go invisible, not only to yourself because life just becomes survival, but then you kind of... It, it's very, very hidden in what the massive ripple effect that's gonna have, all because one blinking light needs fixing, and it could be something as small as that. Now, that's just one thing in your day. If there's also other things in your day from a sensory point of view that you're masking, you're hiding up, it's... The ripple effects are gonna be all over the shop-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. CJ

      ... of, of what's happening to you, but nobody can see it. It's hidden in plain sight. Nobody can see what's happening to you. And if you do speak up, and then it's, um, not understood, you know, you might not even know if you're autistic, or have ADHD, or, or, or have sensory processing difficulties at that age. It's not understood, 'cause people don't know or you don't know, either or. So then, well, now I know not to speak up, because at the same time that we're doing that trial and error of what works and what doesn't work in, in socializing, uh, we're also then going, "Okay, well, I've just learnt now if I speak up about this, it's not liked, um, and I could get in trouble," or, um, whatever. So you never do it again, and then you've got somebody at a very young age that can't ask for help, and that's catastrophic.

    9. AP

      This is heartbreaking. G- uh, you, a- as part of learning what's accepted and what's criticized, you hide your struggles-

    10. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    11. AP

      ... and therefore you hide your self-advocating to ask for help. [laughs] I remember when I was approaching Fred that morning, I was so terrified to talk about my passions-

    12. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    13. AP

      ... and what I loved to do.

    14. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AP

      I remember as I walked over to that group in the corner of the playground with the football cards in my hand, thinking, "This is it."

    16. CJ

      Yeah.

    17. AP

      "This is my moment to fit in." In my head I was saying, "Do not talk about the stock market. Do not talk about the stock market."

    18. CJ

      [laughs]

    19. AP

      "Do not talk about the stock market." That's the devastating thing is, because that was my passion. That's what I loved to do, but I hid it.

  7. 22:25 – 27:01

    The Day You Stopped Showing What You Loved

    1. CJ

      Yeah.

    2. AP

      Uh, do you think that is common? Do, do many autistic people, do their passions disappear?

    3. CJ

      Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And what, what a waste that is. It's a... On a, on a personal level for the individual, how sad, uh, because you're really enjoying it. It's something that you- gets you excited. It's something that you would jump out of bed to, to learn about literally straight to the library to learn about it at school. Um, and then just to general economic growth of our country [laughs]

    4. AP

      [laughs]

    5. CJ

      Like, we could do with guys that know loads and loads about the stock market, right? So it's, it's, um, really detrimental to society as a whole, because how many people out there have got, lost their spark of magic? I don't think it ever gets lost, but I do think it gets snuffed out.

    6. AP

      Absolutely.

    7. CJ

      You have to try and reignite it again. But, you know, that's, it's magic if somebody is really interested, and has expertise, and wants to learn about something which might not be very mainstream. But if y- but then saying that, if you were in a school where everybody was really into learning about the stock market, and there was only one person that was really interested in talking about football cards, then it would, it would be the other way around. So it's almost, um, it's almost kind of what made... As that young child, it's absolutely brilliant. You know, if I had a son and he was like, "Oh, I want to go learn about the stock market," I'd be like, "Brilliant. He's gonna look after me in my old age. How exciting." Um, [laughs]

    8. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    9. CJ

      But, but it's kind of what makes you brilliant, because it might not be very common, makes you odd. And just because something isn't common or popular, it doesn't mean it's odd, it means it's brilliant.

    10. AP

      Th- this actually got me emotional. Uh, before we move on to the second mask, the second type of masking, I do a lot of public speaking now, and, um, I go into companies and I talk about ADHD, and autism, and, and social media sometimes. But I was doing a talk about six months ago, and at the end we're doing questions. Um, and a hand went up- And, uh, the mic went to this man

    11. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    12. AP

      And he... I had told the story on stage about being called weird in the playground.

    13. CJ

      It wasn't Fred, was it?

    14. AP

      And he said, "I'm Fred."

    15. CJ

      No.

    16. AP

      He said, "I'm-"

    17. CJ

      Oh my gosh.

    18. AP

      [laughs]

    19. CJ

      So I thought Fred was a fake name.

    20. AP

      No, he said, "I'm, I'm Fred. I'm, I'm the boy-"

    21. CJ

      Oh, goodness

    22. AP

      ... "that called you weird." And, uh, he, he said, "I'm autistic." He, he said, "This is why I'm here today."

    23. CJ

      Oh.

    24. AP

      And i- on reflection-

    25. CJ

      Alex

    26. AP

      ... he was looking back and he, he himself was remembering that to pretend to like football cards as well. And, and he, he-

    27. CJ

      Oh, that's heartbreaking

    28. AP

      ... he apologized. Firstly, he apologized and I... Uh, you know, we were both... We hugged after the talk. And-

    29. CJ

      Oh, shoot

    30. AP

      ... for me, that was a full circle moment because I was pretending to, to, to like football cards to fit in and to be like someone who I thought was kind of the popular kid and the cool person, and yet he was doing exactly the same.

  8. 27:01 – 30:19

    Mask #2

    1. AP

      on. We'll move on to the second form of masking, and people pleasing.

    2. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AP

      Why do you think people with ADHD or autism apologize all the time?

    4. CJ

      I love this question. I love this question. Um, I think sorry is, is a really handy word to have. Um, and I often find that, uh, for us, saying sorry is a really good kind of small print in case I messed it up. Even if I don't think I'd messed anything up, sorry kind of will cover it. Um, so I think that's a good thing. Not... Well, it's not a good thing. It's a good thing for us, but it's not a good thing because we're apologizing for stuff we hadn't done.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. CJ

      And you know what they say, you know. If you ever go into a prang in your car, um, never say sorry, 'cause it's admitting guilt. [laughs]

    7. AP

      Yes.

    8. CJ

      And I was like, "Well, no, the first thing I'm gonna say is, 'Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry.'"

    9. AP

      [laughs]

    10. CJ

      Um, I don't drive anymore. Don't worry, everyone's safe. But it's-

    11. AP

      [laughs]

    12. CJ

      [laughs] For real. Um, I, yeah, I could easily just n- drive into a, a parked tree, you know.

    13. AP

      Yeah.

    14. CJ

      That, that terrible. But, um-

    15. AP

      [laughs]

    16. CJ

      ... it's, it's that... It's almost kind of like that disclaimer to say, "Uh, I'm not sure if I got this right, so I'm going to apologize anyway."

    17. AP

      Mm.

    18. CJ

      Which then is really tricky because people know that you're going to take the blame for anything. You're gonna go, "Oh, actually it might be my fault," 'cause I often get things wrong, so I'm just gonna say sorry for everything. And, um, I was unaware until maybe five years ago, I, if I... I don't really have meltdowns, I have shutdowns. So a shutdown for me, it, uh, I can't, I can't talk, uh, very, very overwhelmed. Kind of feels like a silent panic attack. Uh, I get, um, I get... Sometimes, like, even, like, my vision gets affected and everything. It's, it's horrendous. And, um, I was always trying to figure out how I would know that I was about to go into shutdown, 'cause for me, I didn't see any triggers whatsoever, and my colleague at work said, "You keep saying sorry. Just before, when you're really, really burnt out from socializing or really, really burnt out from work or, or just life, every other word is sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry." And, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, it is." So maybe it's also a sign of, um, uh, I, I can't really do this anymore.

    19. AP

      Mm.

    20. CJ

      I need to be on my own for a bit, um, or I need t- some time out, or, or I'm, I'm feeling very overwhelmed. I think 'cause sorry is that kind of... that word which seems to stick a, a plaster over whatever's not happening. Now, that might just not be happening for us in our perception of events, so to other people it might look weird.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. CJ

      But now when I see other people apologizing a lot, I'm like, "Ah, okay."

    23. AP

      Yeah.

    24. CJ

      "Someone's really burnt out."

    25. AP

      Yes. Yeah.

    26. CJ

      Yeah.

    27. AP

      I never related to that Elton John song, Sorry Seems to Be the Hardest Word.

    28. CJ

      [laughs] Yeah.

    29. AP

      I mean, it's the, the easiest bloody word-

    30. CJ

      Yeah. [laughs]

  9. 30:19 – 34:25

    When People Pleasing Stops Being Kindness And Becomes Survival

    1. AP

      when does people pleasing become a survival response rather than just being kind?

    2. CJ

      Oh, brilliant, brilliant question, and particularly in, in my work around safeguarding. Um, there is responses, aren't there? You know, fight, flight, freeze, and something I see a lot in, in neurodivergent women and men is the f- the fawning. The fawning, which is beyond kindness, beyond politeness, beyond people-pleasing. That fawning of, "I'm going to pretend that everything is fine," and it is a survival technique, "I'm going to pretend everything is fine in order to escape this situation when it's safe to do so." And that people-pleasing i- is, I think, just one degree away from going into full-blown fawn- fawning, and I think we have kind of a, a duty as, as, as friends, colleagues, other human beings when we see someone really people-pleasing to, to perhaps go, "Oh, no, shouldn't you be doing this for yourself?" Give an example of, you know, you've got a group of girls, and they're all going out to an event. One of the girls happens to be really good at hair and makeup, so, um, they're like, "Oh, let me help you. Let me help you. Let me do this. Let me do that." Uh, and everyone's looking really good to go out, and there's kind of like 10 minutes to go, and they haven't done anything to get themselves ready, and then it's a massive panic because it's that kind of putting everyone before yourself tenfold. That's like a really kind of mild example, but in that situation to go, "Hey, um, this is so kind, but actually, don't worry because you've also got to get yourself ready."

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. CJ

      Um, don't f- don't forget about yourself, and I think we kind of have to make sure that other people kind of step in or know that's part of our kind of makeup is to, to people-please, to overgive. You can be kind, and you can be helpful while still having boundaries and making time for yourself, and I think that's really hard to learn when your whole kind of, your whole kind of goal is to make other people happy because that means you're getting it right, and that's so hard to learn.

    5. AP

      Yeah, gosh. I'm, I'm thinking of a woman I know. She's really, really, really good-

    6. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    7. AP

      ... at cutting hair.

    8. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AP

      Like, she's phenomenal at cutting hair, and she cut her friend's hair. Her friend asked if she could cut her hair, and she did, and she did an amazing job, and then word got round a particular group of friends-

    10. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    11. AP

      ... that this particular woman was really good at cutting hair, and suddenly her phone was beeping all of the time. They were texting her saying, "Can you please cut my hair?" And she was like, "Yes, of course. Come over. I'll cut your hair." And I was becoming aware of what was going on-

    12. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    13. AP

      ... and I was thinking like, "Are they paying you to cut their hair?" And she was like, "No, no, no. You know, I'm, I say, 'Oh, just send me some money if you want,' but really no, no problem at all." None of them were sending her money for, for her cutting her hair, and I was saying to this person, I was, "Well, you're saving them so much money-

    14. CJ

      Mm

    15. AP

      ... because otherwise they would have to go to a salon, probably spend 100 pounds-

    16. CJ

      At least, yeah

    17. AP

      ... on getting their hair done. And really, like, do these people text you any other times other than when they want something from you? 90% of the, the time of those people it was a no, and I was trying to convince her, like, ask for money.

    18. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AP

      Like, you are worth-

    20. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    21. AP

      ... being paid for what you're doing. Um, and she did see that, but again, at the same time, it was like she didn't have it in her to assert that boundary because she didn't wanna face the uncomfortable feeling of having any kind of conversation that wasn't smooth-

    22. CJ

      Yeah

    23. AP

      ... or face any type of combative awkwardness.

    24. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    25. AP

      I mean, for her, it was terrifying asking for money, but, you know, she, she deserved it and, and-

    26. CJ

      Of course, yeah

    27. AP

      ... she was doing them a huge favor. And it's just an example. I think so many people are like that. They've got a skill. People sniff it out. [laughs]

    28. CJ

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    29. AP

      People can, can sense it. They see it a mile off. That person can do something for me that is gonna save me money. They, that person can do something for me that's gonna save me time, and I can take advantage of them because I know that they're not gonna put a boundary in place that's gonna say no.

  10. 34:25 – 37:29

    The Moment You Start Abandoning Yourself

    1. AP

      Are people pleasing? When does it stop being kindness? Like, doing something genuinely nice for a friend or a family member from time to time, when does it stop being kindness? And when does it start being self-abandonment?

    2. CJ

      I think it starts becoming self-abandonment when, um, you're having to sacrifice something that you needed to do for yourself. Like, we, you know, it could be something small, it could be something really important where you notice, oh, well, actually, I, I wanted to, to go for a swim tonight, but now I'm doing this favor and I can't, or let's use the cutting hair example. I've decided to do this next night. Oh, now I've, I've done it again. And the, and when you start to notice that actually I haven't put any time aside for myself or something that I wanted to do because I'm doing this or doing that, and it's, I think it's really tricky because once somebody... I mean, it feels, it feels good to help, and it f- it feels nice-

    3. AP

      Yes

    4. CJ

      ... to do favors, uh, and things for, for friends, but it was that kind of the news spread like wildfire. Um, they're really good at hair, and also they won't charge you. That would've been part of the conversation. And I think with that you then, it's, it's harder to then go back and say, "Actually, I'm charging for hair now," um, than it is if that had been said at the, the, the outset. You know, well, it might've been, "Okay, I'll do any haircut you want, 20 quid." Yeah? If they were happy with that or whatever their price might be. It was a massive bargain, but that was already there. So then the next conversation might be, "Oh, I've put my rates up," rather than I've gone from being this person that's gotta give, give, give, give, give to then having to go, "Actually, I've got a boundary now." It's harder to put boundaries in place in retrospect than it is to have them to begin with, for sure. And I think it's, it's, you s- you start to, to notice it when somebody is getting really affected and super burnt out or might be too tired to go to school or work the next day, or they might, um, might be really affecting their, their wellbeing because this, at this one time you feel like you're winning because everyone's nice, and everyone likes you, and, and you're doing something good. But at the same time- Do you feel nice? Do you like what's happening? And, and when you kind of realize that you don't, you, it's, it's okay, it's gone, it's gone way past being kind now. This is, this is real people pleasing.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. CJ

      Um-

    7. AP

      Yeah. Gosh, I mean, doing this job, being a podcast host, ADHD, and having this awareness, I see it all around me. You know, I know-

    8. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    9. AP

      ... another example, a man, it just so happens he's like an amazing mechanic. I- it's a hobby of his. He doesn't do it professionally, but again, word got around his, his friendship groups, all the people who were at the pub suddenly realized that, I'll make up a name, Dave, uh, was amazing at fixing engines, and suddenly there was like three cars parked on his drive and everyone was like, "Oh, I'll buy you a pint, Dave, when I next see you. Thanks very much for fixing my radiator," or whatever. I don't know about engines. But you could see he was like saying yes with a smile, because he didn't know how to say no. But you could also sense like this, this, this sadness behind his eyes, and exhaustion.

  11. 37:29 – 38:48

    Tiimo advert

    1. AP

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  12. 38:48 – 41:39

    Mask #3

    1. AP

      episode. And if we move on to, I think, the third type of autistic masking, and that's really like when you're a chameleon.

    2. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AP

      When you're, when you're watching and trying to fit in through drawing on the evidence you've gained from observing human behavior. Why do you think like autistic people rehearse conversations before a social event?

    4. CJ

      Yeah, talking in the, talking in the mirror.

    5. AP

      Yes. [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

    6. CJ

      Do you know what? I think a lot of that is to do... And for those that do talk in the mirror, I know it's not just me. I know there's lots of people out there that will kind of practice things, and I've, I- I've tried to do it before. You know when you're like the first on Teams?

    7. AP

      Yes. [laughs] Yes, yeah.

    8. CJ

      And then you go and after, "Oh, sorry."

    9. AP

      Yeah, yeah.

    10. CJ

      "Who are you talking to?"

    11. AP

      [laughs]

    12. CJ

      "No one. Myself."

    13. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    14. CJ

      Busted. Um, trying to get the facial, uh, expressions right-

    15. AP

      Mm

    16. CJ

      ... is, is one thing, and I find that really tricky, particularly on Teams, because I want to concentrate on what I'm trying to say, hoping that it's helpful at work. Uh, and I, I'm like, "I'm gonna have to turn my camera off," because I'm just looking at my face going, "Should my eyebrow do that?"

    17. AP

      [laughs]

    18. CJ

      Um, do I look cross? I don't know. Um, but I think rehearsing what you're going to say can be a really good way of kind of ridding part of that anxiety about the event. I know some autistic people, and it's always... it's really interesting part- you know, in public speaking, isn't it? Some people might have some slides with some pictures, and the pictures nudge them. That's what I tend to-

    19. AP

      Yes

    20. CJ

      ... have a picture, and then I say, "Oh," and it'll remind me of something I need to say. Um, other people might literally print out three pages of A3 and read it off the paper. It's everyone's... everyone has a different way of doing it, but that practicing it, I think it helps with, um, the anxiety. So it's helpful to get rid of some of the anxiety, but it's also bad because if someone else goes off script, you're like, "No, that-

    21. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    22. CJ

      ... I'm sorry, that wasn't the reply I practiced in my head."

    23. AP

      Yeah.

    24. CJ

      Um-

    25. AP

      I don't have any evidence-

    26. CJ

      No. [laughs]

    27. AP

      ... for this situation.

    28. CJ

      No.

    29. AP

      I've gotta go. [laughs]

    30. CJ

      It's a bit like, you know, when you say your phone number?

  13. 41:39 – 43:34

    What If You're So Good At Reading People... You Forget Who You Are?

    1. AP

      This is where it gets a bit heartbreaking. Like do you think someone can get so good at rehearsing and reading other people that they simultaneously lose sight of themselves?

    2. CJ

      Yeah, absolutely. Lose your identity, self-erosion. Um, it's, it's almost as in you become this frag-- the identity becomes quite fragmented, doesn't it? Because instead of it being this is my authentic self, it's, uh, well, this is a part of so and so, and that's a part of so and so, and, and together it all mixes up. You feel like you're, you know... And I, and I, I think that's... I see it quite a lot in teenage girls as well, particularly if there's a friendship group, um, like a, a big friendship group or a clique, if you like. I kind of say it clique, clique. Um, but, uh, you, it becomes really fragmented, and that's not good. That's not good for your, for your wellbeing to, to kind of feel like that, and- It takes a long, a lot of time to kind of figure out who you are again when you realize, "Oh, okay, so this is what I was doing in order to, to try and fit in or please someone, or this is what someone might expect." Um, and just to, just to know that you're enough as you are, and how to do that if you've got a rejection sensitivity. [laughs]

    3. AP

      Yes.

    4. CJ

      I mean, because even if you get to that stage, you've still gotta question it anyway, and it's, um, really, really horrid, horrid feeling.

    5. AP

      We've talked about three types of masking-

    6. CJ

      Yeah

    7. AP

      ... Carly, um, but none of them are the ones that I wanted to talk about the most today because the fourth one is the one that can actually get confused with confidence.

    8. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AP

      It, it is the one people get praised for. It's the ones that employers reward. Um, it's the ones that friends can admire. Um, but it's also the one that is most likely to lead to burnout and leave somebody really feeling profoundly lonely if they don't understand it. So let's talk about that

  14. 43:34 – 46:43

    Mask #4

    1. AP

      one. What is the fourth type of masking?

    2. CJ

      The performer. You become, you know, you might have said the wrong thing, and people think it's very funny, so then you get this reputation of being funny, and then you keep making mistakes. Instead of going, "No, actually, I just made a mistake," or, or, "I didn't understand the word," um, oh, they've got such a good sense of humor, so then you have to kind of build on that because you think, "Oh, well, that works. That's, that's a likable quality to have." Um, or it could be a case of I'm going to, um, pretend, I'm gonna mask and pretend to be very, very confident because if I'm confident... And they, they even kind of recommend this, don't they, in a lot of, um, kind of, uh, those, those, uh, how not to get bullied-

    3. AP

      Yes

    4. CJ

      ... things is walk with confidence.

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. CJ

      You know? Uh, give eye contact.

    7. AP

      Yes.

    8. CJ

      No. [laughs]

    9. AP

      [laughs]

    10. CJ

      God, no. Why? Why is it always give, give... Job interviews-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. CJ

      ... make sure you give eye contact.

    13. AP

      Make small talk. Ah.

    14. CJ

      Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Talk about the weather.

    15. AP

      Yes.

    16. CJ

      Just look outside the window.

    17. AP

      [laughs]

    18. CJ

      No one needs to talk about it. We all know. Um, and then you suddenly then get into a different position of people going, "Oh, okay, well, they're, they're a very, very confident person." Um, and then, or you might get people going, "Well, actually, I think they're quite rude or quite arrogant or overconfident." And then the problem is you're doing, you're trying to act confident in order to feel safer, in order for people to, to like you and not see you as this vulnerable prey that we [laughs] often can be. Um, and then, of course, if you appear confident, some people, not all, some people will then want to knock that confidence out of you, but it's not confidence in the first place.

    19. AP

      Yes.

    20. CJ

      So you go from kind of minus one to minus 100-

    21. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    22. CJ

      ... in the confidence scale. Um, and I, I think, I think that's really challenging, really challenging because it's not, it's not gonna help you. It's gonna make things worse, actually, if it's not that authentic, and it's brilliant to have authentic confidence. And I think a lot of the times as, just as human beings, Alex, we, there's parts of our, our, our life that we're more confident in than others. So maybe someone's really confident at work, but at home perhaps not so much, or someone's really confident in a small group of people, but not in a large group.

    23. AP

      Mm.

    24. CJ

      Um, and, and having those moments of confidence, but... And that's, that's fine, but when you're kind of masking and faking and becoming that performer, becoming more extroverted, um, than you naturally are, really gonna wear you down.

    25. AP

      Yes. Gosh.

    26. CJ

      Really gonna wear you down.

    27. AP

      Uh, the, the, the saying, you know, the world is a stage-

    28. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    29. AP

      ... and you are the performer. I cast my mind back to the seven-year-old Alex going up to Fred in the playground. I mean, that was a performance.

    30. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

  15. 46:43 – 48:28

    How People Can Think You're Fine While You're Falling Apart

    1. AP

      Is it possible to become so good at the performance that the people you're performing in front of, they don't see how exhausted you are?

    2. CJ

      Absolutely, and it's a bit of what you said earlier about someone going, "Oh, I really like you." And you're like, "Well, actually, I practiced that performance, um, and I kind of molded that around what you might like."

    3. AP

      Yes.

    4. CJ

      So actually what they're really doing, they're not getting to like, know and like you, they're getting to know and like themselves. [laughs]

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. CJ

      Which is a really good point, actually, if, 'cause if there is that performance element of it, if somebody really hates us, do they just hate themselves? [laughs]

    7. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    8. CJ

      Yes.

    9. AP

      Yes. Probably. Yeah. [laughs]

    10. CJ

      Possibly. I don't know. I don't know. Um, but I, I think it's, it's, it's really risky because if you're putting out there this, this version of, um, extroverted version, people might have higher demands of you as well, higher demands of your time or higher expectations, maybe not even demands-

    11. AP

      Mm

    12. CJ

      ... just expectations, assumptions, assumptions over what type of person you might be or, or what sort of things you might enjoy, when actually it's, it's, it's not that at all, and it's that constant mismatch, um, constant mis- mismatch. Yeah.

    13. AP

      It seems to be the type of masking that also gets the most praise.

    14. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AP

      You become so proficient at it, so good at being the person who the person in front of you wants you to be-

    16. CJ

      Yeah

    17. AP

      ... so you get positive feedback, and that's exhausting. But also the feedback that you get, because it's positive, it only reinforces-

    18. CJ

      Mm

    19. AP

      ... your internal belief that you need to do more of this masking, more of this performance. And I guess you alluded to earlier the concept or the topic of loneliness, and-

  16. 48:28 – 51:07

    The Loneliness Nobody Talks About In Autism

    1. CJ

      Mm

    2. AP

      ... is that why many autistic people do feel profoundly lonely? Because they could be in a busy room, they could be at a party, they could be at a work meeting- And people are talking to them, people are interacting with them, people are e- maybe even emotionally opening up to them. But if the autistic person isn't being truly themselves, the version of themselves that's receiving all of that input from the world isn't actually reaching them.

    3. CJ

      Yeah.

    4. AP

      Is that a unique experience of loneliness?

    5. CJ

      Well, it's, uh, i- if the mask's sudden- you know, might be like a guard to protect you, but it's also, uh, keeping everyone out. It's a, a barrier to keeping everyone out from, from that connection and that human connection, which is so important, isn't it? And having to literally put your... If you think of the mask as a guard-

    6. AP

      Mm

    7. CJ

      ... having to know when it's safe to put your guard down and let, and let people in a bit, um, i- is, is really important because otherwise, yeah, th- y- you think to yourself, "Well, um, they liked me on that day at that event which I prepared for. Would they like me, you know, on a, on a s- a, a Sunday afternoon where I'm just sat at home talking to the cat?" Um, or, which is one of my pastimes. Um, or-

    8. AP

      [laughs]

    9. CJ

      ... or, you know, reading up about something I really like, or watching this show on repeat because I find it comforting, or talking about my favorite film, and would, would they like, would they like me then?

    10. AP

      Mm.

    11. CJ

      So you d- it doesn't... You can see that it's worked, but you can't feel, you can't feel what everyone else might be feeling. Like, oh, I've really connected with someone, and I, I like them and they're gonna be such a good friend, or all these sort of things. Because i- it's then that fear of, well, this has now, now raised an expectation in their mind of, of, uh, of myself, and actually that's probably a f- false advertising. [laughs] Um, and having to take that leap and let somebody in is harder if there's already an expectation or a perception of, of what you might be like or they might think you might be like, when it's not really very authentic to yourself at all.

    12. AP

      I mean, it sounds like an emotional rollercoaster that is-

    13. CJ

      Mm

    14. AP

      ... totally overwhelming and absolutely exhausting, and it's no wonder that people crash-

    15. CJ

      Yeah

    16. AP

      ... into burnout through this process. And, and on this podcast, I always like to cover some strategies to manage what we've been speaking about. So we're gonna move on to the topic of unmasking and how to really get to know yourself in a moment. But just a question first. If someone is so good at masking, they are performing this incredible character, they're, they're getting the Oscar, the BAFTA, they're winning all of the awards, they're an incredible performer,

  17. 51:07 – 57:49

    The Warning Signs Your Mask Is About To Break

    1. AP

      what's a warning sign that the mask is about to crack?

    2. CJ

      That kind of seepage, that kind of seepage of exhaustion, and that from going from that performer, be that socially, be that at work, top performer, top salesperson, uh, top hard worker, top this, top that, top that. Everyone's like, "Wow, their, their trajectory is going..." And you have to try and keep that up.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. CJ

      Yet so much falls away for yourself. I think the signs might be if it was in a work situation, um, camera off a lot more on Teams. In fact, actually with my NHS role, we have, um, kind of, uh, profiles for us in our team, um, and it's signs that I'm, signs that I'm not coping very well, or signs that things are going good for me, signs that things are going bad for me, and we just did that as a team, and my top one is my camera will be constantly turned off on Teams because I just need to not have to look at facial reactions. Am I doing this? Am I doing that? What's go- you know, that kind of... It's like a, it's kind of unmasking time.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. CJ

      Um, it could be that in a work situation. In a personal situation, it might be, um, somebody's gotta go to event, and then all of a sudden they say no at the last minute, or they're having to leave earlier, and you're noticing a pattern in that. Um, very, very small things. But it's, it- it's all those little small things which then build up. You know, if you think about, um, if somebody's having a reaction to something in the moment, it may well be that something's triggered that in the moment. But for a lot of us, particularly if it's that maybe a shutdown or, or maybe burnout, it's not one thing that set off. It's l- it's lots and lots and lots and lots of masking-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. CJ

      ... and it's starting to, it- it's starting to give way now because there's nothing left to give, because you're exhausted. You know, they can't... What's it? You can't pour from a... You have to fill your own kettle first, or whatever the analogy is. I'm rubbish at those.

    9. AP

      Yeah, something like that.

    10. CJ

      Yeah.

    11. AP

      You have to pour your own cup.

    12. CJ

      Yeah.

    13. AP

      You know that? Yeah.

    14. CJ

      And it's kind of empty, and it's still on the stove, and there's still this expectation that there should be-

    15. AP

      Yeah. [laughs]

    16. CJ

      ... something to give, and it's just getting hotter and hotter and hotter and hotter until it's... You just need to... Need some time out.

    17. AP

      The cracks in the mask sometimes, I guess they can be so thin at first. You don't recognize them. I- I'm thinking of a personal story that, of mine that happened recently, and I'm out quite a lot. I come to London to record the podcast. I do a lot of talks. I always come home at the end of the day. I open the door, and my partner says, "Are you okay? How was your day?" And typically it's like, it's almost a knee-jerk reaction, "Yeah, fine. Thank you very much. It went well." Last week, I traveled for a talk. It was a long train journey back. I had a ton of emails to go through. I'm writing my third book, which is putting a lot of pressure on me at the moment, and I got home at the end of the day and, and she said, "Alex, how are, how are you? How was your day?" And I opened my mouth. I went to say, "I'm fine," and it didn't come out, and I burst into tears, and it shocked me.

    18. CJ

      Mm.

    19. AP

      I didn't see it coming, and I don't think you do sometimes. The, the clues aren't always, aren't always obvious.

    20. CJ

      I, I completely agree. It must have been really... And first of all, it must be so lovely though to have, to have that safe space with your partner, because it's something that you would've been holding in. And do you know what? Probably what doesn't, wasn't just that day. Perhaps weeks, months, perhaps a year, everything building up, and to have that safe space to just cry, I think- That can definitely happen, particularly if we've got issues around our, not only our masking, but our processing. Perhaps there's alexithymia going on, where we're not processing our emotions timely, um, for us to, it to surprise us, and perhaps we don't even realize that we're going through all these stages of masking until it kind of gets to that almost a crisis point where you just need some support. And the over-sharing, going from, "Fine, I'm great, thank you," to, um, it being, "I need to pretend that I'm fine because I don't want people to know that I'm not fine, so I need to kind of like up this, get more inter- extroverted, get, be more performer, because the bigger I smile," um, perhaps the more makeup that's on, the more hair extensions-

    21. AP

      Yes

    22. CJ

      ... and the more fake tan-

    23. AP

      Yes

    24. CJ

      ... or, or whatever, um, that kind of presentational masking. No one's gonna know.

    25. AP

      Hmm.

    26. CJ

      No one's gonna find out, and then it gets bigger and bigger and bigger until you're so exhausted that instead of it being, "I'm fine," it's, it's the tears, or it's, "How, how are you?" And instead of going, "Yeah, not bad, thanks," it's mass trauma dumping, because you've bottled this in for so long, and what could have just been a, a, a hello or could have been, you know, a, a little short sentence of a text turns into paragraphs and paragraphs, emails, which maybe looks like a cry for help, maybe is, but it's then having to apologize, "I, I am so sorry. I did not take that as a, as a rhetorical or politeness question, and even if it was, uh, I had to, I had to get it out." And I think for people to, to understand that when it happens, that they're a very special person because we've decided, "That's my safe person. That's my special person. I can let it all out now." Um, and they're probably really shocked, going, "I just wanted to ask what you wanted for dinner," um [laughs]

    27. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    28. CJ

      ... or, you know-

    29. AP

      Yeah, yeah

    30. CJ

      ... or if you wanted a takeaway tonight-

  18. 57:49 – 1:01:19

    How To Start Taking The Mask Off (Without Losing Yourself)

    1. AP

      unmasking.

    2. CJ

      Yeah.

    3. AP

      And it's a huge conversation, but if someone's late diagnosed ADHD, late diagnosed autistic, perhaps AuDHD, where do they begin?

    4. CJ

      Well, um, I've got a bit of a confession to make. The last time we were together on your show, uh, we spoke about how, uh, unmasking and, and going back to your authentic self was a bit like buying an old house.

    5. AP

      Yes.

    6. CJ

      And you sh- take off layers of wallpaper, and you think, "Oh, you know, I don't like that," and you get, get back to the bare bricks, but you go, "Oh, well, it's fine as it is," and those bits of wallpaper were there to please someone else, and I didn't realize that I... I, I was obviously really thinking about that, and, and since I was last on here, I've bought an old house, and I'm moving tomorrow.

    7. AP

      [laughs] Wow.

    8. CJ

      [laughs] It is, uh, 150-odd years old.

    9. AP

      Wow.

    10. CJ

      And, uh, [laughs] it's kind of at the... And it was only just before I came back on, I was like, "Oh, my gosh. I so know why I did that now." The estate agent must have been like, "Does she need loads doing to her?" "Yeah, she needs tons doing to her." "Perfect."

    11. AP

      [laughs]

    12. CJ

      "Does she really need some TLC?" "Yeah, this is gonna be really expensive. I want her."

    13. AP

      [laughs]

    14. CJ

      And I didn't realize... It must've gone, "She's really easy to sell a house to." [laughs]

    15. AP

      [laughs] Yeah.

    16. CJ

      Um, but it's, it's that feeling of understanding that what's underneath it all is, is fine as it is, and trying to get back to that, um, is very, very tricky, and I think what we try and do is try and s- fix other things, fix other people, help other people, because we, we kind of go, "Well, if we do that, then that's, that's helping, so I want everyone to feel accepted." But actually, we need to take time to make sure that we, uh, accept ourselves, and, and how tricky, and it depends how long you've been masking for. And for many of us, it'll be from that kind of seven years of age-

    17. AP

      Yes

    18. CJ

      ... or maybe even before. And to think, you know what? If I woke up in the morning and I didn't work, or I didn't have responsibilities, or whatever it might be, what would I choose to do with my morning? Not saying go out and do that immediately, but just to write down, if there was no expectations on me from the world, w- how would I choose to spend this day? Who would I choose to spend it with? Uh, who, uh, in, in friendships or, or colleagues, who would you choose to do a, a project or, or an event with? And, and just kind of going, "Okay, so this is where I feel safe, and this is where I feel good," and if that might even be time, or actually I'd like some time to myself. And what would you do in that? And just kind of really trying to examine our own interests, and we might not know what our own interests are. We've been, spent all of our lives kind of serving, servitude to others, be it professionally or personally, and it might be trying new things and going, "Actually, I hate that." And that's quite good fun. Trying everything and going-

    19. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    20. CJ

      ... "Right. I'm not here to see if I like it. I'm here to s- I'm here to see if I hate it so I can kind of do a elimination process. Well, I know I hate all these things, so now I kn- know what I like." Uh, and trying to see that as an e- exciting thing to do rather than a, a, a selfish thing to do, and I- I think there's a lot of guilt for us, isn't there, when we've spent all of our-

    21. AP

      Mm

    22. CJ

      ... all of our time trying to, to please and put others first, even to our own detriment. Um, and we mustn't feel guilty about it, because lots of other people, that's just how they live their lives anyway. [laughs]

    23. AP

      Yes. The process of separating yourself-

    24. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    25. AP

      ... from the version of you that you've created in order to survive,

  19. 1:01:19 – 1:08:37

    Why Letting Go Of The Mask Feels So Terrifying

    1. AP

      can that be quite a frightening experience? Because that mask has, in many ways-

    2. CJ

      Mm

    3. AP

      ... protected you.

    4. CJ

      Yeah, absolutely. It's... When you, when you think it's this guard that you've built up over time, um, and you might have different guards and different masks for different occasions, different events, um, and then to be stripped of that, it's, it's, it's very, very anxious. A very, very anxious time, because it's, it's your safety net. One that nobody else, nobody else can see, and it's, it's a bit like having that taken away, um, very, very scary. And I think to start with, if you're, if you know that you're masking, um, and I think masking can be a really good thing as well, but it... to the point where you're exhausted and you're fawning and you're people pleasing, and, and you're, and you're burning out to the point where you're going to be in some sort of a crisis, is to start small. Baby steps, you know? Oh, well, I'm not going to go to an event where there's 200 people and be completely unmasked. I'm gonna do this in, um, in an event where I've got some good friends who I, I mask around, but there's also people I haven't met before. And getting them to meet you as you, um, and they can see the version that your, your close longterm friends have, have known-

    5. AP

      Mm

    6. CJ

      ... and getting them to see you as you. Um, and build it up. Don't suddenly go, "Right, that's it." [laughs]

    7. AP

      Yes. [laughs] Yeah, I think it can be s- really, really scary, because you're, you're showing people that are really near and dear to you-

    8. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    9. AP

      ... perhaps partners, husbands, wives, friends, colleagues, a new version of you, and there's the risk-

    10. CJ

      Mm

    11. AP

      ... that they might not like it. [laughs]

    12. CJ

      Yeah, because they fell in love with what-

    13. AP

      Exactly

    14. CJ

      ... they were presented with-

    15. AP

      Yes. Yeah

    16. CJ

      ... or vice versa, yeah.

    17. AP

      And when your wh- perhaps your whole life is, is part of this performance.

    18. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AP

      And there is stability in that, even if it's not necessarily who you really are. It's almost like better the devil you know. You know, you've, it might not be who you really are, but there is comfort in stability and predictability of what's coming next, because you've got years of experiencing what that is. So when you're changing who you are, you risk rocking the boat so much that it can be a life-altering event in terms of... At least in your head, what if the people around me don't like this new version of me and my world changes completely? And that's uncertainty, which can be terrifying.

    20. CJ

      And it's a new version of you to them.

    21. AP

      Mm.

    22. CJ

      But it's not a new version of us to us, deep down. And I would love to know how many autistic people, people with ADHD or both, have had some- post-diagnosis or post kind of identifying, have had people... and they're starting to unmask and feel like they're being more their, their authentic self each day, have had people come up to them and go, "Oh, you've changed."

    23. AP

      Yes.

    24. CJ

      Do you get that a lot? "You've changed."

    25. AP

      All the time.

    26. CJ

      Yeah.

    27. AP

      All the time. And I think it's such a brave thing to do, to unmask, and I compare it to people who are in relationships-

    28. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    29. AP

      ... that they know are bad for them-

    30. CJ

      Mm-hmm

  20. 1:08:37 – 1:11:47

    How To Know What's Really You... And What's Just Survival

    1. AP

      question is, "If you've been masking since childhood, how do you know which parts are really you and which parts were created just to survive?"

    2. CJ

      That is the, the million-dollar question again, isn't it?

    3. AP

      Yes, it's a big one.

    4. CJ

      Um, I think perhaps now the bits that were created to survive... Gosh, that's such a powerful way of putting it as well. Goodness me. Um, I think... Sorry, I found that really moving, thinking about, thinking about that part. Um, I think those parts that you created to survive w- are now probably part of, part of you, of what h- things that happen to us, um, do tend to become part of our character regardless of, of us being neurodivergent or not. But it's that, the, the problem with that is you then grow up as a, as an adult to go, um, "What might my coping mechanisms be like had this not happened, and this was, and I masked to cope with it?" And it's that, those questions as an adult which is quite tricky, 'cause I don't think it's, we're ever gonna know which it is.

    5. AP

      Mm.

    6. CJ

      I don't think we're ever gonna know, "Oh, this is absolutely my authentic, uh, character. This is my authentic self, um, and this is w- w- parts of who I became in order to survive." I think it's going to, to be mixed.

    7. AP

      Yeah.

    8. CJ

      And I don't think we can really s- separate them. I think it is nice as an adult though, to look back and go, "Oh, um, yeah, do you know what? That's something that I still don't enjoy now. It's not something that I still enjoy or something I, that I look back on fondly. Um, so that really wasn't part of who I am. It's something that I did." And I think if you can look back on it fondly and go, "That felt good," or I, that, that nostal- If it doesn't have nostalgia maybe, maybe that's it.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. CJ

      If you don't get that nostalgic feeling, um, when you look back on it, you go, "Oh, okay, that was, that was something that I went along with to survive."

    11. AP

      Yeah.

    12. CJ

      "That's not actually part of my, what I like." That's a good- the nostalgia test.

    13. AP

      Yeah. God, such a good way of putting it. I think so much of a mask is actually a trauma response.

    14. CJ

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AP

      I think being neurodivergent is a traumatic experience. We know about the 20,000 extra comments, but also just generally the vulnerability towards traumatic events that being neurodivergent makes you susceptible to. And a lot of the time, in response to extremely traumatic events, big T or small T, we adapt in order to avoid that happening again.

    16. CJ

      Yeah.

    17. AP

      And you can't just undo trauma by saying, "Today I'm going to unmask." So I think there are things you can do, like you said earlier, the amazing advice, like ask yourself what, what really s- sets your soul on fire, what truly pa- are you passionate about, and, and being aware of what conversations you walk away from feeling energized, or which conversations you walk away from feeling drained.

    18. CJ

      Yeah.

    19. AP

      But there has to be some acceptance as well that sometimes the mask is, is, is part of you actually, and the irony is is it has fused with yourself because of traumatic events, and actually that is the real you today.

  21. 1:11:47 – 1:16:27

    The Lie Neurodivergent People Blame Themselves For

    1. AP

      What's something people with ADHD constantly blame themselves for?

    2. CJ

      Gosh. Blame, blame themselves for perhaps, um, being, perhaps being too much or being, um, too excitable maybe, or being... Maybe that comes down to being the performer part, but trying to safeguard ourself with a mask, and then actually blaming ourselves for if the performance wasn't correct.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. CJ

      So I've got a, um, a, a, a loved one who has ADHD. I've got ADHD traits myself, as you know, but I'm not diagnosed, but I do have a loved one with ADHD, and f- and for them, the day after an event, they, uh, will blame themselves for perhaps, uh, "Oh, I'm really sorry if I embarrassed anyone," or, "I'm really sorry if..." There's the word sorry.

    5. AP

      Yes. [laughs]

    6. CJ

      [laughs] The sorry quote is going up.

    7. AP

      [laughs]

    8. CJ

      Um, "I'm really sorry if, um, I didn't behave in a way that you expected," or, "I'm really sorry if, uh, we should've left earlier," or, "I'm really sorry we had to leave earlier." And it's just a sea of, a sea of sorrys.

    9. AP

      Mm.

    10. CJ

      There you go. There's a great book title.

    11. AP

      Yes.

    12. CJ

      A Sea of Sorrys. [laughs]

    13. AP

      Yeah.

    14. CJ

      Um, and then you have to spend a lot of time reassuring them. You know, "Well, actually, no, um, those people that we met for the first time, they, they said, you know, how much they enjoyed you being there," and, uh, and, and, you know, all of this kind of feedback. Um, and that is, that, it... Po- Do you know what? Apologizing, apolo- blaming themselves for being themselves- Which is so cruel and sad

    15. AP

      Yeah. I, I'm, I'm very lucky. I, I meet a lot of people. Sometimes I get stopped in the street now because of the work that I'm doing on ADHD, and I have conversations with people. Nine times out of 10, I get a DM on Instagram-

    16. CJ

      Mm-hmm

    17. AP

      ... about an hour afterward saying, "I'm the person you've just met at Brighton Train Station. I am so sorry [laughs] for being weird or how I came across." And nine-

    18. CJ

      Oh, gosh

    19. AP

      ... honestly, without fail, nine times out of 10, and I obviously reply saying like, "No, you were absolutely perfect."

    20. CJ

      Mm.

    21. AP

      But I don't believe that they believe that.

    22. CJ

      Yeah.

    23. AP

      I think it probably bounces off them.

    24. CJ

      Yeah. And it's that kind of, with that example, and that person coming up to you, that might, you might have been having a rough morning, and that might put a real spring in your step saying, "Oh, my gosh, there's someone that, that, that's watched the show-

    25. AP

      Mm

    26. CJ

      ... and, and they were kind enough to come and tell me about it," and that's really lifted your day. Um, and you've made, they've made you feel good, and but they've made themselves then feel bad and anxious. Um, and that kind of... They can't then see that actually you really enjoyed that.

    27. AP

      Yes.

    28. CJ

      And you're really grateful for that, and now they're worrying about being weird, and it's just, it's so sad. Maybe we can see all of the loveliness in each other, but we can't see it in ourselves. [laughs]

    29. AP

      Yes, because I have so much empathy because really that's exactly what I experienced when I was a kid, and so many people have experienced similar. And I know that if you walk away from a social situation-

    30. CJ

      Mm

  22. 1:16:27 – 1:18:50

    "I Don't Know Who I Am Anymore."

    1. AP

      What's the saddest thing you've ever heard someone say after they finally realized they had been masking their entire life?

    2. CJ

      Well, it's the, the normal... well, I say normal, common. I have no idea who I am. Who am I? Particularly if it's somebody who, um, much, much later in life, not knowing what they enjoy. There's so many, many sad things. Going, going along with things which have been made them incredibly vulnerable, dangerous, life-threatening, in fact. People who have drunk to excess or, um, had to take drugs in order to go out and mask and fit in. Whole life's ruined, going if... Now I understand why, and that's incredibly, incredibly heartbreaking, particularly when it's, um, you know, judicial situations as well.

    3. AP

      Mm.

    4. CJ

      You know? Young people that couldn't cope with those lights or those noises at school, then went out into, uh, bunking off school, getting into crowds, leads to county lines, might lead to a jail sentence, all because they had to mask. Some incredibly, incredibly sad stories. And, uh, maybe we need to, like, get masking on the national curriculum. [laughs]

    5. AP

      Yes, yes.

    6. CJ

      Or at least how to, you know, respect other people's differences in-

    7. AP

      Mm

    8. CJ

      ... in that way. Incredibly, incredibly sad stories.

    9. AP

      Carly, I've got a surprise for you.

    10. CJ

      Ooh.

    11. AP

      I want to deliver to you a letter. Every guest on the podcast at the end of their episode writes a letter to their younger self, and to connect all of the episodes together, I deliver that letter to the next guest, which today is yourself.

    12. CJ

      Yay. [laughs]

    13. AP

      There we go.

    14. CJ

      Thank you very much. Now, since the last time I've come, these used to be green envelopes, didn't they?

    15. AP

      Yes. We've, we've, uh, we've gone back in time.

    16. CJ

      [laughs]

    17. AP

      [laughs]

    18. CJ

      I'm loving them.

    19. AP

      Yeah.

    20. CJ

      Your envelopes are unmasking.

    21. AP

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    22. CJ

      [laughs]

    23. AP

      Yeah, true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

    24. CJ

      Okay.

  23. 1:18:50 – 1:20:34

    A Letter To My Younger Self

    1. CJ

      So, "Dear younger me, I'm sorry you grew up believing the real you was a problem. I know why you became so good at hiding. You watched everyone else, copied them, and slowly buried parts of yourself that seemed to make people uncomfortable. You didn't do it because you were fake. You did it because you wanted to be loved, and the saddest part is it worked. People accepted the version of you that survived, but very few ever met the version of you that needed saving. You'll spend years trying to earn your worth through success, hoping that if you achieve enough, the feeling of not being enough will finally disappear. It won't, because the thing you've been searching for was never more achievement. It was permission to be yourself. One day you'll discover there was never anything wrong with you. You weren't broken. You were simply wearing a mask so heavy that you forgot what your own face felt like. When you finally take it off, some people will leave, but the ones who stay won't love the person you pretended to be. They'll love the person that you were all along, and I promise you, they were always enough. Love, your older self."

    2. AP

      Wow.

    3. CJ

      Oh, my gosh.

    4. AP

      Do you resonate with that letter?

    5. CJ

      Beautifully written.

    6. AP

      And I think really it's a letter to the younger versions of all of the listeners and viewers as well.

    7. CJ

      Missed me. You could have everyone crying. [laughs]

    8. AP

      [laughs]

    9. CJ

      It's beautiful.

    10. AP

      A huge, huge thank you on behalf of everyone listening and watching and grappling to understand how their brain works. Carly Jones, thank you so much.

    11. CJ

      Thank you so much, Alex. Thank you. [outro music]

Episode duration: 1:20:34

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