The No.1 ADHD Expert: How To Master Your ADHD - Dr NED Hallowell

Dr. Ned Hallowell 0:00 Like, whoever invented the wheel definitely had ADD. [laughs] Dr Ned Hallowell-

Alex Partridge 0:04 Is a Harvard-educated psychiatrist

Dr. Ned Hallowell 0:06 Who has authored over 20 books on ADHD

Alex Partridge 0:09 What advice would you have for someone who's perhaps a little bit older, they get a diagnosis, they wanna start that journey of unraveling, taking off the mask? What advice would you have for someone who's starting that journey of self-discovery?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 0:19 My first rule is never worry alone. Go find someone who understands it to, to talk to about it. Get information. You begin with education. You begin by breaking new ground, but you wanna do it with someone. You can try medication. Saying, "Let's do two years of non-medication first" is sorta like saying, "Why don't we do two years of squinting before we try eyeglasses?" Our reigning search is for stimulation, even if it's horrifically painful. So what you need to do in order to break it, medication won't work, by the way. You need to learn the skill of-

Alex Partridge 0:50 This episode is dedicated to anyone who catastrophizes and thinks their world's going to end when someone asks them for a quick chat without any context.

Alex Partridge 1:01 This sponsored ad was agreed to be 90 seconds long, but because I know most of you have ADHD, I negotiated it down to 89 seconds. I challenge you to test your ADHD by seeing if you can sit still for one minute 30 seconds while I tell you about our sponsor, Tiimo app. If I can sit down and record take after take of this message for two hours, then I'm sure you can listen to 90 seconds. So here's a short word from our sponsor. Tiimo app is a perfectly tailored app that I use daily, and maybe it's worth you giving it a try to see how it might improve organizing your life, too. Running a podcast is actually a lot harder than you might think, and juggling all of the moving parts would be near impossible if it weren't for Tiimo app. How? Well, Tiimo is designed specifically to hack the neurodivergent brain, a brain that might struggle with time agnosia, object permanence, memory cognitive load, task initiation, anxiety, or procrastination. All things I'm extremely guilty of, too. "And how on earth does it help you, Alex?" I hear you scream impatiently at your computer or phone screens. Well, the award-winning Tiimo app is the perfect life-hacking tool to help your time management and kick you up the bum when you need it most. If you want to stay ahead of the competition, then the visual planning Tiimo app is specifically designed to help your structuring, organizing, focusing, and goal-setting. It has a visual timer providing a tangible and visual representation of time to help users pace themselves so you never miss a deadline ever again. It also has an efficient lock screen reminder service to alert those of you who are very out of sight, out of mind with your chores and afraid you might forget them. It brilliantly centers all of your tasks in one place across devices, both on a web and mobile apps, to streamline your overflowing schedules and make them much more digestible and a lot less intimidating. And for those who find big tasks too overwhelming to even start, Tiimo breaks them down into more manageable subtasks to get the ball rolling. In fact, this app helps me so much that it actually reminded me to record this message to advertise the app. Give it a go. Why not? It might just help. Anyway, back to the episode. Edward, thank you so much for joining us.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 3:26 It's my pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.

Alex Partridge 3:28 I just wanna start off by saying how thrilled I am that you're here. In, in my opinion, you're, you're the leading voice on ADHD globally, and in fact, when I got my diagnosis, I listened to your work, I, I, I watched your videos, and it was hugely beneficial. So from me personally, a massive thank-you for that, too.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 3:47 Well, massive thank-you right back at you. That's, that's awfully nice of you to say. Yeah.

Alex Partridge 3:52 Before we start, I'm wanna reveal your ADHD item. I'm gonna lean over and lift up this cloth.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 3:58 Okay. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 4:02 Now, that is a Lamborghini.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 4:04 Wow.

Alex Partridge 4:05 Um, but I think the eagle-eyed, eagle-eyed amongst the fans of your work will recognize your metaphor as being a Ferrari, but because this was very last-minute, I was only able to source a Lamborghini. But we'll, we'll-

Dr. Ned Hallowell 4:16 Well, it's impressive that you got one at all, you know? [laughs]

Alex Partridge 4:20 I wanna start with the first question. Um,

Alex Partridge 4:22 Ned, do you have ADHD, and if so, when was your first memory of feeling different?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 4:29 Well, I certainly have it. Uh, but growing up, I knew I was different, but I didn't know the name for it. So I, I, I, I knew I was different for any number of reasons. I, my, my family was chaotic and that sort of, you know, so, divorced. This was in the, in the... I'm 74 years old, so when I was growing up, divorce was not as common as it is now, and it was a little bit shameful. So m- my mother had been divorced twice, and so I carried that around, and I was left-handed and, and then, and that made me different. Um, uh, I was, I was smart, uh, noticeably smart, so that made me different in a good way, although I got, took some flak about that from people who didn't, didn't like smart people, [laughs] you know? And, and so, and, and I came from a family where, where being different was, was prized, you know, a, a family of iconoclasts and a family of independent thinkers, and I was encouraged as a little boy to, to look at the other side and, and I'm very grateful for that, you know. And I went to schools where it w- it w- you were encouraged to ask questions, as opposed to a lot of schools in the United States where you're not supposed to ask any questions. You're just supposed to shut up and memorize and, and, and, and fortunately, I was not brought up in that tradition. But, you know, 'cause I could've been squashed. I could've had my spirit squashed, and that, people don't realize, people with ADD, whether they know they have it or not, we're very sensitive. And, you know, we're, we're w- w- a little bit of, uh, ridicule w- could shut us down for For ages, you know? And, and, uh, um, it, it's a shame, you know, uh, uh, I'm forgetting the man's name, he's a wonderful man, who d- coined the term rejection sensitive dysphoria.

Speaker 6:12 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 6:12 And, and it's a big mouthful of syllables for ba- basically meaning we can be devastated by, uh, by what we perceive as rejection. It doesn't even have to be real rejection. You know, we can just see the, the, the look in someone's eye. I, I tell a story where I was giving a grand rounds, um, uh, back at Harvard and, and, you know, it was a big deal and I was very primed up for it and, and, uh, I gave the talk and, uh, and, uh, my old teacher, Les Havens, was sitting in the front row and, and I got a standing ovation, and Les came up and congratulated me. It was just a crowning moment. But I saw in the upper left-hand corner of the room, this woman who was scowling. So driving home, what do I think about? This triumphant presentation that... No, I think about that scowling face.

Speaker 6:59 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 7:00 And, and, and I, and I get home and my wife says, "How did it go?" I said, "Oh, this woman was scowling." And my wife said, "You're crazy." [laughs] You know? I, I, she said, "Was anyone else scowling?" "No." Uh, and then I said, "Well, I did get a standing ovation." Uh, she said, "What is with you? I mean, you, you, you, one little... For all you know she had indigestion."

Speaker 7:22 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 7:22 I mean, you know, why do you personalize it? And so that, we tend to do that.

Speaker 7:28 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 7:28 And, and, and it's, um, I th- I think it's the flip side of being, being so, uh, sensitive to everything. I mean, we pick up on the tiniest little things and, and the tiniest little messages, and we, we can sense when someone's unhappy and they don't even know they're unhappy. We can just sense something stirring within them. That, that, that, we have like a, it's an extra sensory perception kind of thing.

Speaker 7:51 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 7:51 We, we... And, and that's, that's odd too, 'cause what do you do when you sense something, you know something, but you're worried if you say it you'll offend the other person or you'll take them aback, you know? And, and, uh, and that's kind of the world we live in. It, it... And you, it's, it's hard to get validation 'cause you don't wanna come across like you're, you're crazy, you know? So, so subliminally I've always known I was different, in a good way and in a bad way. And then, and then along comes in 1981, I get, I actually diagnosed. I'd never heard of attention deficit disorder. I, I'd gone through, uh, college, medical school, residency, training. I, I was doing a fellowship in child psychiatry and I heard a lecture on this term attention deficit disorder. If you'd said ADD before then, I would've thought it was a disorder of someone who hadn't gotten enough attention growing up, you know? But then I heard this lecture and it was one of the great, if not the great aha moments of my life-

Speaker 8:46 Mm

Dr. Ned Hallowell 8:46 ... 'cause wow, I mean, this is actually... I, I'd always wondered, is there, is, im- is, is there a syndrome that I've got or the, is it just for kids whose, you... I did left-handed kids whose parents were divorced and, uh, drank heavily. I mean, what, [laughs] you know? And, and then no, it turns out that there's a whole research behind it. The, you know, the, the history of the condition is, is also a, a story of misunderstanding. You know, the, the, this used to be called minimal brain dysfunction. You know? Whoa, I wouldn't want to go for a job. "Hi, I'm Ned Hallowell. I have minimal brain dysfunction." [laughs] "Oh, come right in, you know, you're our kind of guy." You know, and, and, uh, so it's been misun... But, and then before that, you know, people say this is a new condition. ADD, what we call ADD, ADHD, has been around forever. You know, a thou- 100 years ago, 500, there, there were, there have always been children and adults who were particularly the way we are. You know, creative, original, inconsistent, forgetful, impulsive. You know, there have always been such people and so it's not new, it's just that until really the 20th century, the lens through which it was viewed was the lens of morality, often colored by religion. So your diagnosis, you were bad and maybe possessed by the devil, and the treatment was punishment. Usually physical punishment, ridicule, uh, sometimes incarceration, sometimes put to death. Because the idea was you were doing all this on purpose. The devil had gained possession of your soul. You were failing, you know, you know, in the, in the, in the challenge to side with the right, side with God. Uh, do your best and, and, and you weren't. So that means some evil force had, had gotten into you and you have to beat the devil out of the child, and then if it's an adult, some adult form of being beaten. And, and the, that's how these people were crushed and destroyed and, and what's particularly tragic, aside from it's just a wrong thing to do, we, our tribe, we have the new ideas. We're the game changers. We're the people this world needs more than anything.

Speaker 10:55 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 10:55 And particularly now with AI, AI can't do what we can do. It can do everything else, but what it can't do, 'cause you can't come up with an algorithm for the way we think. We, we don't know the why we do what we do. It's this un- unknown.

Speaker 11:07 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 11:07 Someone says, "How did you do that?" "I don't know." You know? [laughs] That's the honest answer. And so, and so, but, but until really the 20th century, the, the, we were beaten, abused, excluded, judged, you know, looked down upon, and yet we persevered 'cause that's the only way we know. We just don't give up. As a group, we just don't give up, and God knows why we don't, but we don't. Knock us down, we'll get back up. Knock us down, we'll get back up. And, and, uh, then thank God, literally, I happen to believe in God, even though terrible things happen, uh, thank God in the 20th century, uh, people said, "Hey, maybe it's not just a matter of willpower. Maybe it's not just a matter of God. Maybe biology plays a role. Maybe, you know, brain chemistry matters." And then in 1937, most people don't realize how long it was ago, a very innovative, uh, doctor in Providence, Rhode Island- Had a ward full of boys who couldn't be controlled outside of a, a institutional setting. Th- th- normally they'd be in reform schools, w- euphemism for torture chambers, and he brought them onto his ward in Providence. He was a doctor, and, uh, he had this bunch of boys who couldn't be controlled. They were beating each other up. They were screaming. They were yelling. It was, it was chaos, and he was trying whatever remedies he could think of to help them, in, in changing clothing to lighting to nutrition to sleep, a- And then one day he read in an unrelated journal about the impact of amphetamine, and, um, uh, he said to his head nurse, "I, I, I wanna put these boys on amphetamine." Well, she must have thought he'd gone around the bend, said, "You're gonna give these out-of-control kids speed?" Y- you know, a- a- a- and particularly in 1937, before anybody had heard of any of it. Well, lo and behold, he gave these kids speed, and in, in, in 30 minutes you saw improvement where 300 years of beatings, moral intervention had miserably failed, and it was a triumphant moment, you know, in terms of, of wow, th- there's more to how we are in this world than God and the Devil. And, uh, not to discount God and the Devil, but, but there's a lot more to the story than that. And this was incontrovertible, incontrovertible evidence because, uh, uh, the... And, and far from these kids being lazy, they loved this pill. They called it their arithmetic pill 'cause finally they could memorize these boring math facts. It's not they di- they didn't want to in the pa- they just couldn't. Anything that's boring, we can't do. It, boring is our kryptonite. We just can't do it, not won't, can't. Well, give us amphetamine and we can. We can focus. It's, it's analogous to someone nearsighted being given eyeglasses. Now we can focus. It, it, it's not that we wouldn't before, but it's that we couldn't before. With the medication, we could. A lot of people don't understand that. They, they, they still are stuck with this moral model. Still in 2024 they think all that child needs is a good beating, or all that child needs is to- some good discipline, and it, a- and, and that's just wrong. It's just wrong, and it, it, it still happens with tantamount to child abuse. I mean, the battered children throughout history, a lot of them had undiagnosed ADD, and, and so they were being beaten and battered for something they had no control over. Um, and it, it, it's the single biggest misunderstanding even today why, why, why teachers and parents, uh, uh, scold, humiliate, and punish their children for something that children have no control over. And the same thing for adults, adults who, for example, in the workplace, in certain kinds of corporate environments, being on time is, like, next to godliness, you know? And, and we're not good at that. We're not good at being on time, and it's not because we're lazy or irresponsible or all the m- moral turpitude adjectives that get hung on us. It's just in our brain we have a qualitatively different sense of time than the average person. In our world, there are basically two times. There's now and not now. So you say, "The exam, the paper is due next week." Not now, and it's gone, and, and, and, you know, until not now is almost now, and then we panic, and we get it done in a, in a panic at the last minute. And w- unwittingly, what we're doing is we're self-medicating because in a panic you put out a lot of adrenaline. Well, adrenaline is chemically very similar to the meds we use to treat ADD, so without knowing what you're doing, you're self-medicating. Um, and, um, but, but, but in the, in the, in the world of people who don't understand that, they think our being late is, uh, ev- evidence that we don't care, and, and so we get marked down or fired. What... And, and, uh, the, the same thing for, uh, filing and putting things away and being organized. We think that's, again, if you're organized, that's godly, and if you're not, that's slovenly, and, and, you know, and so we wanna get rid of the slovenly. And, and y- when you do that, you get rid of your most gifted people. What is more important to you, uh, business owner, that you, that you have everyone on time and neat, or that you have people coming up with new ideas and advancing the world? I mean, if, if you're in business just to display neatness and punctuality, great. You won't make any money, but you'll feel proud. If you allow ADD people their head and be late and be messy, you'll, you'll come up with the, all the bright, new ideas that we come up with all the time. It's very hard to convince people of that 'cause so many people are stuck in the, this model of, of, of, of purity and godliness and neatness, and, and it's things that just don't matter that much, but they come to matter to the people who have what I call attention surplus disorder [laughs] the few, the people who are neat freaks and, and, and, and, and literally get physically upset if, if, if something is not where it should be.

Alex Partridge 17:06 I love your perspective, and I agree with, with, with it so much. You know, it's why I started this podcast, was to create a more balanced narrative around what it actually means to live with ADHD. I think when I got my diagnosis, I was so disheartened when I googled, "What is ADHD?" And it said, "Struggle with focus, struggle with attention, struggle with disorganization." It was all struggle, struggle, and more struggle.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 17:28 Struggle. Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 17:28 And without discounting those, for sure, they are there sometimes, right? But from my experience in speaking to lots of other people with ADHD, ADHD, when understood and, and managed, can also be creativity and problem-solving and pattern recognition and being calm in a crisis and being able to see the big picture and spot things that other people miss, all of these things that I think make you a tremendous asset to society and the workplace.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 17:53 And, and they're things you can't buy or teach.

Alex Partridge 17:56 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 17:56 What we've got, got going for us, creativity, originality, drive, entrepreneurli- entrepreneurialism, vision, you can't buy or teach those. You have to have them. The things we're bad at, you can, you can work to, uh, control and, and minimize the damage they do. But what you say is so true, and I think that's how the things are starting to change. The world really needs vision, imagination, creativity, drive, entrepreneurialism. It doesn't need more neatness, you know?

Alex Partridge 18:23 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 18:23 We're not screaming out more neatness. And, and, um, uh, the sooner people reali- Like, whoever invented the wheel definitely had ADD.

Alex Partridge 18:31 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 18:32 You know? You talk about outside the box or, you know. And, and some ADD caveman or woman, you know, say, "How about this round thing?" Or that, "Isn't that fancy? Isn't that wonderful that you can roll?" And, um, uh, so it, it, so I love what you're doing. But we, 'cause we have the truth on our side, you see? It's n- it's not like we're, we're, you know, some radical idea that's disrupting civilization. No. We're providing the truth that will open up the world to the people who can change it for the better, who have been changing it for the better, but not getting the credit they deserve. Um, and, and but it's definitely, it's heading in that w- It's very heartening to me. 'Cause even when I learned about it, uh, what, 40 years ago, there was tremendous stigma. And people would say to me, "Don't go on TV and say you have ADD, 'cause y- y- y- as a doctor, y- nobody'll wanna come to see you." You know? And I said, "I can't, I can't go through life lying about something that's so important." So I'd go on Oprah and I'd say, "I've got ADD and I love it." And I didn't get pushback. I mean, I, people sort of wondered, "What is he talking about?" And, and I began to tell them. And then the next thing you know, it's still happening. People raising their hand out of, you know, all over the room. Whenever I g- whenever I get called to give a talk at a business, I know what's gonna happen. They'll ha- they'll have an audience of, let's say 100 people, and, uh, I'll ask the thing, "Who of you has ADD?" And three hands will go up. After the lecture, the whole room thinks they've got it.

Alex Partridge 20:04 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 20:04 Because, you know, 'cause it's just a matter of-

Alex Partridge 20:06 Mm

Dr. Ned Hallowell 20:06 ... of framing it in a way that isn't just pathological. You know? And I say to them, you know, I list off the good part, and then I say, you know, "And y- your, your, your troubles are, are fixable. And, uh, and, and the shame that you have been made to feel since you were in the first grade, it's not you. Y- you know, the, the society should be ashamed, not you. Your teacher who, who shames you should know better." And, and, uh, I mean, it, so the, the whole room start... I mean, it, it's a wonderful thing to see someone get diagnosed with ADD, uh, uh, uh, 'cause you're, you're setting them free to fly high. I mean, right now the biggest undiagnosed group are adult women, and I love seeing these women because they come in almost invariably... In the past they've been diagnosed with depression or anxiety or both. That's almost invariably the, the diagnoses you get if you're a woman, you go to, at least in the United States. And, and, um, uh, what, what I say to them, I say, "You know, you're sad and, and anxious because you have this untreated condition. If you're w- walking around waiting to be called out over and over, that makes you anxious. And if you're underachieving, that makes you what looks like depressed. But in fact," I'll say to them, "you're absolutely brilliant and you've got an amazing imagination." And they're, they've been f- they've been lied to too many times. They, they'll say something, "How do you know that?" Like, "Prove it. How, how do you know the..." I say, "Well," I'm ready to prove it, I say, "Well, your vocabulary, your appreciation of irony, your sense of humor, how you took in everything in the room the minute you walked in and sat down and made comments. You have to be pretty smart to do that." Then they start to cry. Say, "My God, nobody has recognized me. I've been..." And, and they, they weep. And but then it's a whole new life, a whole new... I can see them just rising up in front of me. Their, their spirits are rising and they're ready to soar, which is what they should've been doing all along. And, and, and that's why I love my work. It, it's like giving someone, using the knowledge we have, new life. And, and they, boy, do they ever take it and run with it. You know? So, so, um, um, uh, you know, the, it, it's, it's an incredibly liberating diagnosis and, and not what people used to think of it, it, that it's just spin doctoring. It, we, the biological proof we have now is, is very strong. The, there's no biological test. People think that brain scans will diagnose, it won't. But it gives you evidence that is incontrovertible that this is a, a biologically based, genetically, uh, transmitted condition. And, um, uh, there are some non-genetic ways of acquiring it, but that's a distinct minority of, of, of the cases.

Alex Partridge 22:54 There's a whole generation of particularly women who are realizing, you know, they've spent their whole life being told that they're too much or too sensitive, and now they're realizing there's that reason-

Dr. Ned Hallowell 23:03 Oh

Alex Partridge 23:03 ... and that validation that comes with that.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 23:05 And it was, it, that they're a jitterbug, that they're, they're a dumb blonde, that they're, you know, that they're... I had one patient whose father told her, "You have no more sense than a jay bird." And she grew up feeling... And she was brilliant.

Alex Partridge 23:18 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 23:19 Absolutely brilliant. But this father just laid this horrible insult on her, and she was so sensitive she took it in, incorporated it and believed it. And when I said to her, "You know, in fact, you're brilliant," I mean, the woman, you could just feel the, the weight of, of scorn and ridicule and self-contempt that she'd felt for all those years beginning to melt away. And it's just, it's a wonderful thing to see. But it's, it's infuriating that she had to suffer all that-

Alex Partridge 23:49 Mm

Dr. Ned Hallowell 23:49 ... for so long, that she had to be that misunderstood for so long. And it's a terrible feeling to be misunderstood. It, it just... Because, and if you try to explain to someone, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah," they, they, they, they won't believe you. You know? So, so you, you, what happens usually is you develop what's called a false self. You learn how to- Pretend to be normal, y- you know? [laughs] And quote-unquote, "normal". And, and, and the real self goes into hiding, and the false self becomes who you, who you are. Well, imagine that y- you can't, you can't be real. How... You can't fall in love if you're not real. You can't, uh, you can't really express your best work if you're not real. If you're constantly clamping down the real you, you can never, you can never thrive in the ways people should be able to thrive. So it's a very high-stakes poker, and that's why I'm so passionate about it. It, it, it, it, it, it is so not just a quote-unquote, "learning disability". It, it, it's not that at all. It, it is a way of being in the world that, managed properly, is, is a, is a tremendous gift. Now, it's a gift that can be hard to unwrap. This doesn't unwrap itself. You know, you're born with this genetic setup. Uh, you either have to luck into it, which is, which is what a lot of people do, or you have to be diagnosed, have it recognized, and then, and then a logical way of going about unwrapping your gift. Um, by the way, there's no age limit. You, you... There's... Well, early, we don't, uh, tend not to diagnose it before age four, but the upper limit, there's no upper limit. People think, "Oh, you're too old. You, you, you couldn't have it." My oldest patient was 86 years old. 86.

Alex Partridge 25:33 Wow.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 25:33 And after treatment, he was able to write the book he'd wanted to write his whole life long, and then he died. But he did- he died a happy man because he'd, he'd achieved this goal that he'd had ever since he was in his 20s. And, and he, and, and it's just, it's... I mean, how wonderful is that? And people think, "Well, it's medication." No, it's not medication. Sometimes medication helps, but you don't have to have it. It's, it's really a way of rethinking who you are, where you've been, why you do what you do, and also of not being troubled by the most common answer in our world to a why question. Why did you do that? I don't know. That's the world we live in. [laughs] We don't know how, why we do what we do, but we do it, and sometimes it's disruptive, and that's called impulsive. Sometimes it's incredibly creative, and that's called creative. You know? So, so w- we have these new ways of seeing the world that pop in and out of our brain. Sometimes we should suppress them but we can't. Other times, they're a gift to the world.

Alex Partridge 26:36 What advice would you have for someone who's perhaps a little bit older? They get a diagnosis, and then they, they wanna start that journey of unraveling, taking off the mask, becoming more connected with who they really are. What advice would you have for someone who's, who's trying, who's starting that journey of self-discovery?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 26:53 Uh, my first rule is never worry alone. Go find someone who understands it to, to talk to about it. Get information. You know, obviously, my books I'd recommend. The, the most recent, ADHD 2.0, is, is, has the vir- virtue of being very short. And then I did, I, I wrote another one that came out s- after that called ADHD Explained, and that's published primarily in Britain, uh, because it's a British publishing company. In the US, most people haven't heard of it, but it's the most ADD-friendly book I've written 'cause it's, it's short, it's got illustrations, it's punchy, bulleted. And so ADHD Explained. And, a- and that, you begin with education. You begin by breaking new ground, but you wanna do it with someone because y- your, your brain, you can't, you can't accommodate that much disruption, that much reverberation. You g- you get confused, and you begin to doubt it, and you fall back into your old way of looking at yourself. So you need someone there to be like a trainer, like your spotter, you know? And, and, and to keep up with you as you're breaking this new ground and, and creating this new version of, of who you are. Um, but then, then, uh, then you can, uh, work with a coach to help you develop new lifest- lifestyle habits. You can try medication. I, uh, and, and... I think as long as it's not against your religion, everyone deserves a trial of medication. It, it, it... The medication will not... If, if it does anything you don't like, you just stop it. You'll say, "What if it takes away my creativity?" Stop it, and your creativi- ty, your creativity comes right back. If, if you turn purple, stop it, and you'll go back to your original color, you know? I mean... And, uh, uh, and, and some people say, "Well, shouldn't I do a couple of years of non-medication treatment first?" And I say, "Sure." And, and, and those non-medication interventions will, are wonderful. Uh, there's one I'm particularly a fan of, uh, the, the Zing program, which is using balance to stimulate the cerebellum. Uh, but saying, "Let's do two years of non-medication first" is sorta like saying, "Why don't we do two years of squinting before we try eyeglasses?" You know, why not try the proven intervention that'll make all the other interventions that much easier to do.

Alex Partridge 29:10 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 29:10 You know, i- if the meds work, then it's easier to do the non-medicated, the coaching, the whatever it is you're wanting to do. If you can focus, then if you have the benefit of the medication, why wait? You know, it is. It's like saying, "Let's do squinting before we do eyeglasses." It... Knowing that if the meds do anything you don't like, anything, you just stop them and it's gone. It, it, it's not like surgery, you know, which is irreversible, you know? You're, you're, you're doing... It's very analogous to eyeglasses. Um-

Alex Partridge 29:37 In the most, in the most, like, basic terms, what could the right medication do to the ADHD brain from taking it to where it is to where it could be?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 29:46 Focus. I mean, everything you do in life other than sleep is improved by focus. Everything. Not just schoolwork. Your golf game, uh, your, your abil- ability to have a conversation at a dinner party, uh, your ability to r- you know, to remember what you need to leave the house with before you... You know, the, the ADD way of leaving the house is you have to leave five times.

Alex Partridge 30:08 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 30:08 You have to come back to pick up what you forgot, you know?

Alex Partridge 30:11 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 30:11 And, and if you're on the meds, then you don't have to do that. So, so it, it's... When it works, it just makes life, uh- ... a lot easier. And, and, um, and, and you don't have to be, a- and you, and you don't have to live in a state of, of sort of low-grade panic. What, how am I gonna F up next? You know? H- how am I gonna embarrass myself next? And that's a hard way to go through your day, and, and that, but that's what adults with undiagnosed, untreated ADD live with. And, you know, and, and, uh, you know, h- what am I gonna say to embarrass myself? What am I gonna say or do that someone's gonna call me out on? And, and, you know, I, to this day, I, I live in a certain amount of fear of, of how I'm gonna misspeak. What am I gonna say that will, um, upset someone? And particularly in today's world, where woke and PC and all that is so important and so rigorously if not viciously enforced, it's dangerous out there. You know? So it, it's dangerous to be ADD. It's dangerous [laughs] to be real, you know? [laughs] It's, you know, it, it, it, and, and, um, uh, you know, but I, it comes back to however you unwrap your gift, that's up to you. What I do in my books is I provide a menu of, of approaches that have worked, that I know have worked. Some have a better track record than others. Um, but, but the main thing is to begin to approach life and yourself with positivity. You know, I'm working on a new book and the, the title is, uh, You're Better Than You Think You Are. It's not about ADD per se, but it's, but so many people who think less of themselves than they should. Uh, and, and they're, they're just one dose of, of positivity away from thriving and, and being happy, and yet they're stuck in this, uh... I've, I've worked out a, a whole app, uh, through this group that, uh, John Maguire and, uh, a group called Hallowell Brain Health. And it's an app that you, you can use that will, you know, that's obviously not expensive, that you, you can, you can get everything you need to, uh, overhaul your, your life with ADD.

Alex Partridge 32:26 You studied at Harvard, and you've got a fantastic education with regards to psychiatry, and an, an impressive experience as a psychiatrist. Um, how much do we not know about ADHD?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 32:37 Oh my God, so much. So much. We, I mean, the brain is the vast uncharted territory. I mean, uh, you know, how, how, a hundred billion trillion cells. I mean, it, it, we talk as if we know about, we talk about these neurotransmitters as if they, we know. We don't know what they're doing. We don't know, you know, we, we, it, it, thank God, in many ways, we're still free. You know? We're, we're... And a- as long as you remain humble, that's good. As long as you stick with the phrase, "I don't know, but let's try and learn," then that's great. What d- what you gotta be afraid of are the people who, who, uh, who have the answers. I mean, [laughs] I, I like the little prayer that goes, "Lord, help me always to search for the truth, but spare me the company of those who have found it."

Alex Partridge 33:23 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 33:24 You know? [laughs] And wh- whether you, whether you're talking philosophy or sci- you know, the, the, and the brain is a great example. We know a lot, a lot more than we did in the days of, of medieval, you know, believing that God and the devil were ch- cause of everything and free will determined everything. We're way beyond that, but we're so far b- for knowing what this... It's the most amazing thing in the world. This is the most amazing contraption in the world. And, and we only understand basic- But thank God, we're now approaching it with open-ended curiosity instead of these blinders called, you know, God and the devil and virtue and all this gobbledygook that just shames people, shuts them down, reduces their curiosity, fills them with fear. That i- is horrible, and, uh, we, we've blown a lot of that up and, and, you know, now our driving force, curiosity, can roam far and wide because there's no forbidden question. There's no forbidden territory. And, and that's the way life should be, this open-ended adventure, and finding out wa- 'cause a lot of, most of the stuff we find, our discoveries are by accident. You know? Uh, uh, the, the, the one that I'm most familiar with recently, the polymerase chain reaction, which nobody's heard of, but it, next to the double helix, is probably the most important discovery in bal- biology in the past 50 years. And the man who, uh, discovered that, won the Nobel Prize in chemistry, has flaming ADD. He, uh, should had, because he's in heaven now. But he was, uh, a- a- a- and, and he, the, when he discovered this polymerase chain reaction that it changed everything, he was sitting in a car looking at a Los Angel- California sunset with his girlfriend, and the sunset was so soothing that the girlfriend fell asleep. Well, he was nice. He didn't wake her up, so he just started thinking. Well, into his imagination swam the polymerase chain reaction, and he took a envelope from his glove compartment, jotted down a few notes, and in 15 minutes, he had the whole thing. And he woke up his girlfriend and said, "We gotta run back to the lab. I've just won the Nobel Prize." And he was right. He knew how earth-shattering what he'd come up with was. Had he planned to do it? No. Did he know how he did it? No. All he knew is it was catalyzed by his staring at a sunset in the presence of someone he really liked. And boom, you know, whatever, whatever process happens, there he, he has this earth-shattering, game-changing discovery. And, um, all we can do to increase that happening is to set the table, to make conditions, uh, create conditions that favor that happening as opposed to prevent that. But what is the main thing that prevents it from happening? Fear. If you're in a learning environment or a working environment that's filled with fear, it ain't gonna happen I mean, emotion is the on/off switch for creativity, learning or... And, and if you've got fear and, and, and, and, and misery surrounding you, you're not gonna do your best. Obvious. Should be obvious, but, but a lot of teachers and a lot of managers i- instill fear, 'cause they think that motivates you. And, and, and, you know, it, it'll... Fear works in the very short term, but in the long term, it, it, it peters out, and all, all it does is, is, is reduce your, your, your power.

Alex Partridge 36:55 From one of your talks, I remember hearing you say that people with ADHD aren't good self-observers.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 37:02 Yes.

Alex Partridge 37:02 What, what... Why do you think that is, and what led you to say that?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 37:05 I, I don... What made me say it is, is seeing it so often, and knowing it in my own self, you know? That I'm a terrible self-observer. I, you know... We, for... I, I don't know why it is, but we, we mis- we typically ran- sell ourselves short. We typically have trouble owning our genius or whatever you wanna call it. We have trouble owning the ways in which we are specially talented, specially gifted. We, it, it makes us nervous. It's like, "Oh, don't say that about me. You know, I'm not that." Because we've been told for so long and treated for so... that we're substandard or that we're misbehaving, that we're bad. We're, you know... And so, a- a- and so we tend to see ourselves through that negative lens. We, we... Rare is the person with ADD who overstates his or her value. I love it when they do. Say, "Great. Go ahead," you know. "Maybe you'll make it come true." But most of the time we sell ourselves short. It... Greatest line I ever heard about this came from my daughter. When I was, uh... When, when 9/11 happened, she was, uh, 13, and she's 35 now, and I was asked to go on TV and make some comments about what to do in the wake of 9/11. Well, I didn't know what to say, uh, so I asked my daughter, Lucy. I said, "Lucy, I've gotta go on TV and comment about 9/11. What should I say?" And she looked at me and she said, "Daddy, tell people don't hold back on life out of fear." I said, "Whoa, Lucy. Thank you." [laughs] It was the most amazing statement and, and so spot on of what, of why people don't do as much as they could do. Almost always it's because they're afraid. Whether it's asking the person out on a date that you don't dare ask out, or trying out for the team that you, or the play that you don't think you can make, or taking a course that is a bit of a reach for you, um, it's fear that holds you back. And, and, uh, you're better off just barging through fear and, and maybe not getting what you want than not trying to get it. Um, y- you know, you, you, you, you miss all the shots you don't take. Uh, and, and Wayne Gretz- Gretzky, the American hockey player, s- made that remark and, and it's, it's a wonderful remark. So ta- I, I still am taking shots that I don't make all the time, and I make mistakes, and I get called out, and I embarrass myself, but I've gotten used to that, and that's the price I pay for being me. And... But I've also learned to listen to feedback and say, "Don't do that" when you're going in there, you know? Um, um, you know, so I, I, I allow people to help me. You know, a lot of people with ADD won't, won't allow that, because we're stubborn and proud, and I... Particularly males. Often they'll s- they'll say straight out, "I'd rather fail doing it my way than succeed with help." Now, [laughs] that is S-T-O-O-P-I-D, you know? What... And yet, and yet it, it's made out of, of pride, which is... There's a good part to that, too. You, you, you, you wanna try your best and, and believe in yourself. But yeah, we're, we're, we're terrible self-observers. And... But we need to learn to listen to others'

Dr. Ned Hallowell 40:25 feedback.

Alex Partridge 40:26 What do you think the cost is, um, on others, to the people around the person with ADHD if the person isn't able to self-reflect?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 40:36 Oh, well, it, it can be disastrous. I mean, it, I mean, the classic example is the addict who won't, who won't... who's in denial, who won't acknowledge, uh, the problem. You're, you're never gonna get a handle on it if you don't acknowledge it. Um, and that's another field. By the way, addiction is way more common in people with ADD than not ADD, and it's a fascinating, it's a fascinating... The basic reason is we are, we are genetically, uh, our pleasure level is set lower than the average person, so we need to resort to extraordinary means to get ordinary pleasure, and the easiest way to do that is with a drug or, or some activity. Gambling, sex, spending, shopping, um, or, or alcohol, cocaine. We're trying to pump up the volume, that's what. We're always trying to pump up the intensity. Ordinary life just doesn't do it for us. Uh, boredom is our kryptonite. We, we can't tolerate it. We can't do it. We have to increase the intensity of the moment somehow. Well, there are adaptive ways of doing that. Creative outlet, intimate relationship, uh, vigorous exercise. Th- those are adaptive ways of doing. Then the maladaptive ways are the, the array of, of, of quote-unquote "bad habits" or addictions. We, we can be unbelievably stubborn, particularly the males, and, and it, you know, it's a terrible thing. I mean, you, you, you render your life that could be wonderful tragic. And, and, you know, it, it... The inability to listen to other people is, is... That's why my first rule is never worry alone. You know, I am completely, uh, uh, dependent upon a whole number of people. I am so far from being independent, and yet that's the value every, all these adults are trying to sell. We wanna be independent. No, you wanna be effectively interdependent. Of course, you don't wanna be a leech, but you wanna be able to give and to take, and, and that's interdependent, and that's the way it is in today's world. The people who are seeking to be independent, number one, they'll be unhappy, and number two, they won't do nearly as well. I mean, what's more fun than connecting? That's the, that's the reward of being alive. We're all gonna die. We're all gonna suffer that, whether it's a punishment or a reward, who knows? But it's gonna happen, so why not make the use that we've got? Now, connecting is scary. You're, you're, you're taking a chance. You're risking something when you, when you reach out. But it's, that is where the greatest pleasure in life resides, and it's also where the, it's the greatest, uh, uh, factory of new ideas is, is in, in exchanging ideas, and that's 'cause other people see things you don't see. And plus, just emotionally, it feels good. It feels better than good. It's ex- That's the source of ecstasy is in, is in human connection. It doesn't have to be human. It could be canine, you know, the love of a dog, you know? [laughs] But, but, uh, uh, i- to, to hold back on that i- is, like my daughter said, "Don't hold back on life out of fear." It's so, it's such a shame, and the... You know where it comes from is early experiences of shame. You know, when early on you're told that the way you are is just not right, then you say, "Okay, I better cover it up, and I better develop a secret self, you know, a- and I better develop this acceptable self that I show to the world."

Alex Partridge 43:56 I've had lots of gue- I've spoken to 150 people, thereabouts, and a lot of them have got their own stories of addiction. You mentioned

Alex Partridge 44:03 addiction there. So do you think the opposite of addiction is connection?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 44:08 It's certainly a way out of addiction, a, a way out of it, absolutely. A way out of it is connection. But I mean, it, it... You could say a, a drug is a form of connection. It's just a very destructive one, and, and it, and it gives you a kind of pleasure that's illusory. It, it looks like pleasure, feels like pleasure, and turns out to be the curse of all ages. So, so yeah, y- y- you... The drug tricks you into thinking you're connected, but in fact, you're horribly d-... But if you pursue connection f- of its own s-... then you, you, you won't need to have the drug. Once you get over the physical addiction part, then you will find pleasure in a new relationship, a new project, you know, a, a new group. It, it... Once you dare to enter, once you dare to show yourself, once you dare to take off your disguises, then you cavort. You play. You, you tease. You tickle. You f- you, you, you, you have fun together, and that is sort of the only way we've got to defeat death, you know, d- d- to defeat despair, i- is to connect. And, and i- if you're in the midst of a connected conversation or relationship, ain't no, ain't no despair gonna get in there, you know? You may talk about very sad things, but you're not gonna... D- despair is a solitary experience, you know? It, it, it... It's very difficult. You can feel sad with a group of people. You can mourn as a group, but you don't despair as a group. I mean, you, as long as you have an other, uh, you're, you're, you're safe from... You're not safe from tragedy. You're not safe from, uh, the bad things that can befall us, but you are safe from the feeling of absolute, abject emptiness, hopelessness, despair.

Alex Partridge 45:59 On the spectrum of ADHD, what is an example of moderate to severe traits on that scale?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 46:07 Well, you know, I, I'm not a fan of ranking it. People say, "Do I have bad ADD, good ADD?" You know, i- if you have it, you have it, and, and what you do with it renders it good or bad, you know? And, and, uh, um, so I suppose severe is just ADD that the person has not learned how to handle. They haven't learned how to put on the brakes, you know? They're, they're still bumping into things. So, it, it, uh, it's that they, they haven't learned how to handle. They haven't learned how to build their brakes, and, uh, a- and, and everyone can learn that. It, it takes some time. So, the people that look like they have severe ADD, they just haven't had the chance to work with someone who can help them strengthen their brakes. Th- there's... If you have this condition, and I wish I could just implant this in everyone's mind, there is no reason to feel bad about yourself or about life, and yet so many of us do. The kids pounding their head saying, "I wish I weren't born with this brain." Uh, adults out there saying, "I'm just a loser. No matter what I do, I can't carry it off." You know? And, and see, that, and w- and we now know this is true, that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right, and that's a fact now. We know that. By believing you can do something, you dramatically increase the likelihood that you will do it, but believing that you can't do something, you dramatically increase the likelihood that you won't do it. And isn't that amazing, that, that, uh, something as seemingly obvious as you, you should believe you could, you can. You can't... That's not a switch you can turn on and off. You have to work toward it. You have to build the capacity to believe in yourself and believe in others and, and believe in the goodness of life. You know, some people just, for all kind of good reasons, just think life is a relentlessly punishing experience, and it really doesn't matter what they do, and, and they think the rest is just BS, you know? And, and, uh, their goal is to get through life and suffer as little humiliation as possible. That's, that's a shame because, you know, the... So how do you find confidence? How do you find courage? How do you find, uh, when someone says, "Take heart," how do you find heart? Where, where, where do you... Do you go to Amazon and order it up? No, you find it in connection. I mean, that's where you find it, and it can be with a dog, you know? I talk about do- d- dedicated my last book to dogs. A dog can give you more faith in the positive, uh, elements of life than, than anything. You know, so, but, but the thing to, the thing to absolutely avoid is, is, is disconnection, is giving up. Uh, some people call that the sin against the Holy Ghost. It's when... It's, it's the, it's the, it's rejecting the positive part of life. It's saying it doesn't exist. That's an illusion. Well, then you, you've pretty much, uh, cut yourself off from any chance of feeling ecstasy, for sure-

Alex Partridge 49:07 Mm

Dr. Ned Hallowell 49:08 ... or even just ordinary happiness. And why would someone do that? Why would someone do that? Why in the world would someone do that? Well, comes back to fear. And what are you so afraid of? You're afraid of humiliating yourself. You're afraid of looking stupid. You're af- you're afraid of being judged down, you know? So it, it comes back to you're trying to save face, you know? And then these kind of very primitive but powerful, powerful forces that act upon us, you know, that, that... My gosh, if I could just go back at my own life and dare to do this, that, or the other thing. Fortunately, I've dared to do quite a bit and, and, you know. When I was in 10th grade, for ex- in 12th grade, for example, I handed in a story at the beginning of, of, of the year, and my English teacher handed it back to me. Written at the bottom, I can still see his handwriting in red ink pen, "Why don't you turn this into a novel?" I thought, "Jesus Christ, I knew Exeter was a tough school. I didn't know I had to write a novel." Well, I, I didn't have to. He... I was the only kid he suggested do that, so I was flattered, but I still was stuck with ha- this, this Mount Everest I, I, I... And, and, and I said, "Mr. Tremolo," I was saying, "How, how do I write a novel?" He looked at me, he said, "One page at a time." [laughs] And I said, "Okay, I'll try." And I did, I tried. And he would read it and comment on it, and so he was, like, cheerleading me, if you will. And by the end of the year, I'd completed a novel, and it won the English prize which, which to me it was like, it was like I proved to myself that I could do the impossible. That, once you've done that, once you have proved to yourself you can do the impossible, then you'll, you keep trying for the rest of your life. I've been trying to do the impossible ever since. Usually fail, but fail, it- it's not fail. See, success is keeping in the game, and whether you win or you lose, stay in the game. That's success, and I've been staying in that, the impossible game ever since. And, and, uh, uh... But, but if you can, if you can set someone up to... And this is why you need coaches, and parents, and, and friends for that matter. Set someone up to do what they think they couldn't possibly do. Now, you don't want to set them up to fail. Don't set up a four-foot person learn how to dunk a basketball or something. But, but don't give up. Don't, uh, don't give up on yourself, and if someone challenges you to do something, that means they believe in you. Give it a shot. You know, be a dream maker, not a dream breaker, not only for others, but for yourself. Try, try to be a dream maker for yourself. And, and we break our dreams, that's why... Because we don't... We- Bad, bad experiences in the past, we sabotage. We break our own dreams as a means of preventing bad outcomes. No. The bad outco- the only bad outcome is giving up, you know? So, so stay at it. Keep at it. Whether you achieve the goal or not doesn't matter. You've achieved the goal by trying, and that, that's a cliché, but you f- you will feel the importance of it when you, when you live your life that way. Um, that, that, that is how we, we defeat these, these terribly empty states called despair, despair, or failure, or... You know, a- as long as you, you, as long as you're drawing the best out of yourself and, and, and often not knowing how you do it. I mean, that, that's our secret. ADD's secret is we don't know what we're doing. [laughs] And how could you, how can you achieve something good if you don't know what you're doing? Well, we do it.

Alex Partridge 52:47 Do you think there's a difference in that feeling of despair between the sexes, male and female?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 52:53 In, in everyday life, I, I, I find women just being willing to say it, risk it, do it, and, and men are strong silent, you know? Uh, they don't wanna look stupid. They don't wanna come out of their Charlton Heston pose or what, you know, they don't wanna... Their John Wayne pose. They, they wanna, uh, they want people to think, you know, they've got it all under control and, and it's just such BS, you know? They, they, you know... What are you so afraid of, sir? And, and with the women, by and large, uh, are, are not like that. Now, they, they... But, but shame is, is... The, the female experience, adult experience of ADD is all about shame. They feel so ashamed that their pocketbook is a mess, or that they can't bring a guest into the house because they think it's too much of a mess. They're ashamed of, that they're not, not Martha Stewart.

Alex Partridge 53:42 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 53:42 And, and my response to that is, "Look, sure, you wanna try to be organized, but you want, you... The goal should be not to be Martha Stewart, but to be well enough organized that d- disorganization doesn't keep you from reaching your goals." So to that extent, and we can help you get to that, we can help you get that far. So disorganization doesn't keep you from reaching your goals. But, uh, most women, they're, they'll, they'll start crying in a heartbeat. They'll show vulnerability at, at the drop of a hat. I mean, you know, they're, they're so much more emotionally mature than we men who are stuck in this save face, uh, caveman [laughs] paradigm that, um, that we should grow out of. But, you know. But we're, we're both male and female sa- faced with the same ... issue of how do you, how do you make meaning out of a, a, out of an experience that has no inherent meaning to it, you know? And, and, uh, how, how do you, how do you put work into something where you know you're gonna die, where you know you're gonna be, it's gonna end, uh, where there's no guarantee, where you m- may suffer pain along the way? Where, where does the positive energy come from? And my answer to that is, is from one another, uh, from belief in one another, or from your dog. [laughs] And, and, uh, the, the, the, the question is very real. How, how do I take this situation called life and milk it for all it's worth without getting wiped out by the chance of looking stupid, feeling stupid, getting sick, dying, falling, accident? H- How, how do I get out of bed in the morning? Life is such a dangerous experience. Well, you gotta trust i- in connection. I happen to have a trust in what I call God. Now, uh, uh, believe me, I'm not pushing organized religion at all, but I'm just saying I, I, I call it the invisible forces, and the invisible forces, if you court them, they, they tend to come. You know, gravity is a, an invisible force. Nobody can argue that gravity is real. Well, I think the in- the angels are invisible forces that... And I've been very lucky in my life that the, the angels have looked out for me, 'cause I, I've, I've taken crazy risks and done really stupid things, and, and I'm still alive, you know? And, and, uh, um, and it, it, you, you, a, a, trust in the in- trust in the power of whatever has taken care of me in the past will continue to take care of me. And, and statistically, I should be dead, you know? There's a whole study of, of people who have had the kind of childhood I had, and, and, and w- we're dead usually by the time we're my... And, and the reason I'm not is, is this undefined group of positive forces that have, that have looked out for me, that I in no way earned or controlled. It's not because I'd worked so hard or I'm such a virtuous person at all. It's because for one reason or another, uh, the angels liked me and, and, and, uh, and gave me certain talents that could advance me in this world. Uh, like my mission, obviously, is to, uh, tune people in to the possibilities of, of having a wonderful life, made even better by this weird condition s- so erroneously called Attention Deficit Disorder.

Alex Partridge 57:18 One of the concerns I get asked the most, particularly with the, the women I meet, is they, they get the diagnosis, but then they're quite fearful of, of telling people about it because they feel like there's this camp out there, this group of people that think everyone has ADHD these days. So if they disclose it, whether that's at work or to their friends or family, it's gonna be met with a bit of an eye roll. Do you have any advice for someone who has that fear after they get a diagnosis?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 57:44 Yeah, don't, don't disclose it, uh, until, until you know the person you're with won't have that reaction. 'Cause right now in, in the workplace, I tell my adult patients, "Well, don't tell people." You can name the symptoms that you've got. Uh, you can say, "Well, I'm really good with ideas. I'm not so good with details." But, uh, but don't give the label ADD, because still, unfortunately, most people will think that it means you're unreliable, you're unpredictable, you won't be there when the chips are down, all the stereotypes, misconceptions about ADD. So don't tell people unless you know they know better, un- unless, and, and so then you can tell them. But there's no need to tell anyone you have this condition. Um, a- as long as you tell them who you are and what you're good at, what you're bad at, that's all they need to know.

Alex Partridge 58:29 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 58:30 Um, uh, and, and, uh, unfortunately, most people still, including the people who have it, don't understand what ADHD... Even the people who have it, they don't realize the possibilities they're walking around with, the power they're walking around with. They often feel the op- they feel disempowered by having it. And, and so, you know, a lot of my job is, is, you know, there's an old line, meet them where they are, but don't leave them there. So I meet them where they are, but then try to move them to the promised land, and, and honestly, l- life with ADD that you know about, that you have some, it, it's, it's, it is a wonderful experience. I mean, I love my life. That is not to say I don't also have moments of deep sadness and deep despair and deep, uh... I get into v- these very dark, black spaces, but I know how to get out of them, and I know they're self-deception. You know? So it's not like I, I think, "Oh, you're fooling yourself, Ned. You suck. Life sucks. Everything sucks." No, I, I, I can, I can realize that particular beast is, is a sham. Um, and, and then the things I'm good at, my natural innate enthusiasm can take over and bubble me up, you know? And, and, uh, and, and, and it's, it's wonderful, and I, I, I thank whoever's in control for giving me this, this, this force within that I don't have any control over, that, that's there for me, you know? And, and I, I hope I can give it to other people and, you know, as you're doing with your podcast. To... So many people out there are living lives where they are m- they are misunderstood, and they then understand themselves in a negative way, and that's preventable.

Alex Partridge 1:00:13 Have you managed to come to any theories as to why, from an evolutionary point of view, ADHD brains might have evolved?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:00:21 Well, you know, the, Tom Hartman wrote a book called, uh, Hunters in a Farmer's World, and, and h- his idea was that we're the hunters. The ADD are the hunters. We're the rule breakers, the, uh, adventurers, the risk takers, and, um, that had, that had ... evolutionary advantage because we w- we would, you know, see the saber-toothed tiger that's jumping out o- of the bu- jun- jungle at us, where there aren't too many saber-toothed tigers anymore, so the, the, the world favors the farmers who are caution and, and predictable and, you know, don't go out in the rain. And, and, um, um, so he, he thinks that the, the ADD gene, uh, saved us when we needed it, and it, it, we're, now it, it's, we're taking r- risks we don't need to take. Um, I, I, you know, I think there is something to that, but, uh, whether it's true or not, whether there's an evolutionary advantage to it, you're, you're left with, what do you do with it? And, and I believe and I think know that if you do the right things, the outcome will be wonderful. I mean, we, as much as we can suffer intense negatives, we can enjoy in- intense positives better than anyone, too. I mean, our up is way up, and as long as we don't become manic and, and crazy, you know, that's wonderful. You know, and w- and we can experience an intensity, and then we can share it with others, where others feel inspired by that. They may not be able to replicate it, but they can feel it, and, and, um, uh, uh, you know, tha- that, that's... Everything in this condition h- has two sides to it. It's a, it's a, it's a syndrome of opposites, like the lead, what it's known for, the lead symptom, y- y- you have trouble s- sustaining attention. Well, we also can hyperfocus better than anyone. You know, when we're into something, we're super focused. It's, it's that when we're not into something, our mind is buzzing around looking for something to light upon, to get interested in. And, you know, the, the same thing about impulsivity. If it, if it, if we do something impulsive that's obnoxious, we call it impulsive. If we do something impulsive that's useful, we call it creative.

Alex Partridge 1:02:40 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:02:41 You know, so it's all, it's all two sides of the same coin, you know? And, and, uh, uh, for every negative, there's a positive. For every positive, there's a negative. And our job, as owners of our brain, is to try to maximize the positive and minimize the, the negative, which can be done if you understand what you're dealing with.

Alex Partridge 1:03:02 Do you think getting distracted easily can be a good thing?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:03:05 Absolutely. Absolutely. It, I mean, i- i- if you're in a stupid, boring situation, getting distracted is your saving grace. It's like, it's like finding something interesting in the midst of boredom. Well, you may call that distraction, but nex- next thing you know, you're calling it penicillin. You know? Tha- that's when the great discoveries happen. You're feeling i- itchy and irritated, and suddenly you see something, "Oh, look at that. That's actually more interesting than this boring thing I'm doing over here." So yeah, absolutely. There's a definite advantage to it, you know, even, even though you may get called out for it.

Alex Partridge 1:03:40 Fascinating, Ned. I want to talk about RSD, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, and, um, how to manage ADHD correctly,

Alex Partridge 1:03:47 but first, I wanna draw attention back to the ADHD item on the table and ask why, why a sports car is your ADHD item.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:03:56 Well, number one, it's sexy.

Alex Partridge 1:03:58 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:03:59 And I, I, I, I think of ADD as sexy, you know? I think we're, we're, uh, we're, we're risk-taking, we're, we're sexy, um, we're break the speed limit, you know, and, and, and proud of it, you know? Uh, but a- as fast as we're going, and what this car can't show, is we have marginal brakes, and that's what makes us dangerous. If, if you're a, a Ferrari or a Lamborghini and you're going 150 miles an hour down the highway and you can't stop, you're in trouble. That, that's, that's when we get into trouble, when, when our brakes fail us. And by the way, it's a great way for correcting a child. You have to correct them. You have to redirect. But instead of saying, "You're a bad boy," or, "You're a lazy girl," say, "Your brakes are failing you." That's a mechanical analogy. There's no shame in it. And you, if you've already explained to them the analogy, then they'll, they'll get it right away. And it, it, it applies for adults as well. Your, your, your brakes are failing you, and, and that's when we get into trouble. That's when our impulses carry us in- into dangerous places, where we lose control. Um, uh, so the positive, the Lamborghini, the sexy, creative, dynamic, uh, exciting, speeding, you know, rule-breaking fun of contributing a brain can get into deep trouble if it doesn't have the ability to put on the brakes, whether it's addiction or, or law-breaking or, uh, violent behavior or, you know, just being a nasty human being. I mean, that, those are all variations on-

Alex Partridge 1:05:44 Mm

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:05:44 ... on not having strong enough brakes. Fortunately, number one, once you recognize it, okay, I'm not a bad person, once you get past the barriers of shame, then what do you do to strengthen your brakes? Well, th- there are very reliable ways of doing that. The obvious, get enough sleep, exercise, uh, eat right, uh, meditate or pray, whatever your frame of reference is. Never worry alone. You know, have, have input like that. And then perhaps consider medication, or perhaps consider the, the cerebellar stimulation I mentioned earlier. You know, the, the app that we've produced, hallowellbrainhealth.com, you, you can, you can access the, the exercises that, that can help. Um, those are all ways of, of, of, of strengthening your brakes so y- you don't have to suffer the, the... I mean- Russ Barkley, one of the great researchers in the field, ha-has shown, he's run the numbers, undiagnosed, untreated ADD costs you on average 13 years of life. That makes it more dangerous than cigarette smoking. Um, you know, another one that's more dangerous than cigarette smoking no one ever mentions, it's social isolation. That's why connection is so important, is social isolation is bad for you, dangerous, toxic. You die young, a lot younger. And, and, and people at first didn't believe that Lisa Berkman showed this over 25 years ago, and, it, the study has been replicated over a dozen times around the world. So, so both, both disconnection and, uh, um, uh, not having the condition recognized and treated, it, it are, are dangerous.

Alex Partridge 1:07:28 What about overthinking and that kind of, uh, that racing mind, the, the sort of Ferrari, Lamborghini mind that can cause overthinking, and therefore cause this sort of paralysis, this inability to do what you want to do?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:07:39 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:07:40 Any sort of MOT for that?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:07:42 Well, this is, gets us into, we haven't talked about this, but the, the, the, the, uh, the, the, uh, different networks in the brain. Uh, when you're engaged in doing something productive, the network, that is four different regions of the brain that are running the show, is called the task positive network. That's when you're writing the story, when you're baking the cake, when you're, uh, having the good conversation. Like right now, you and I are in the TPN, the task positive network. Well, when the task is over, when the project is finished, the TPN shuts down, and what rises up in its place is called the default mode network, the DMN, which I call the, the demon for the following reason. In those of us who have ADD, the DMN tends to spew out just a string of negative feelings, images, thoughts. "You're stupid, you're boring, you're ugly. Nothing you do works. All those mistakes you've made, that means you're just a worthless piece of poop, and, and nobody's gonna like you, and how can you even like yourself, and how can you even get up in the morning, and how can you go out into the world, y-you know, being such a fa- such a ph- phony? Every- everybody sees it, and, and you, y- you're a sorry excuse for a human being." And you're sitting there just being pissed upon the way you would never do to anyone else, you're doing to yourself. And, and, and that is, is, uh, is the worst part of this condition. I have a colleague who treats a lot of ADD. She wants to write a book with me about it. She... I think this is the, the worst part of ADD, is the default mode network. Now, why, you would say, why would you allow yourself to stay in this, in this horrible line of fire? Well, remember I said earlier, we're always looking for stimulation. Well, pain is the most stimulating stimulus we've got. If you put a match to your finger, you know, you'll pull it away. Well, emotional, physical, mental pain is the, is the equivalent of physical pain, and, and we, we glom onto it because it's stimulating. See, it, it's the antithesis of boredom. It hurts like hell. We hate it, but we also glom onto it because it is stimulating, and that, and that i- it, our, our reigning search is for stimulation, even if it's horrifically painful. And that's... So what you need to do in order to break it, medication won't work, by the way. Uh, you, you need to learn the skill of detaching from it, and the way you do that, the, the DMN, its, its fuel supply, its oxygen, is your attention. As long as you're riveted, you know, you, you, you will stay in the DMN. Um, see, contentment is too bland. You don't say he was riveted in contentment, but you do say he was riveted in pain, you know, and, and it... So the, the DMN holds you that way. So you need to shut it off, and the way you do that is by changing the subject. Hard to do, 'cause the DMN owns you. It's very sticky. So you need to have other activities, other stimuli that you can turn to, and you have to have it known in advance, 'cause in the moment you won't be able to think of them, uh, that you can turn to. Loud music, physical exercise, intense, uh, conversation, intense connection, um, uh, uh, creative activity, um, anything that you... Like if you're a, a master chef coming up with a new recipe, if you're a gardener, go out into the garden. Something that is stimulating enough to shut off the, the connection to the, to the painful stimulus, and learning how to do that is a big deal in the world of ADD. Learning how to, A, recognize what it is. It's not reality, it's the DMN. And, and then, and then shut off your attention to it.

Alex Partridge 1:11:37 You're in a relationship and you know your partner struggles with these intrusive thoughts, these negative thought processes for stimulation. Is there anything that partner can do to help their partner?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:11:48 Oh, e- explain to them what I just explained to you. It's very liberating. I mean, I, I, I don't think there's any single insight that my patients have not benefited from more than to say, "This is not the truth that you're uncovering. This is not, you know, face it, you're just a bloody loser." No, this is your mind deceiving you. This is illusory. And, and then tell her or him, we have, we've learned this from fMRI. This is, this is hard data from watching the brain in action. And, and, and so we know this is not some theory. This is not some conjecture. You know? Th- this is proven fact that, that, uh, uh, so you are buying into a, a, a false, uh, uh, presentation by following the DMN and believing in it. So, so tell her or him When that happens, let's go do something fun together. You know, like, because nothing is more intense th- th- than being with someone else. Let's go, let's go for a run together, let's play a game of tennis, let's, uh, uh, whatever, you know? And, and, um, um, uh, that will shut off the, that will shut off the, uh, the DMN right there. So, and it's a great question, 'cause so many people, particularly with ADD, suffer such intense misery in these sort of loculated, uh, periods of time. L- loculated meaning separate, uh, independent, uh, island-like, without connection. Uh, they, they're unable to put an end to it. Well, if you teach them about this, then, then they can signal, like, "Okay, I'm heading into the DMN." You can say, "Let's go do something," or, "Let's go have sex," or, you know, something to, you know, to stimulate the situation. And next thing you know, y- y- the DMN shuts down, and, and, boy, what a relief that is, you know? It, it's a... And once you learn how to do it, then you don't live in fear of it. You don't live in fear of the, the demon. It's what I call the DMN. And, and it's a wonderful victory. You know? Some of you think, "You can't do that, you know? It's life. You're up against metaphysics." No, you're not. You're, you're working with biology, uh, and, and biology can be used against you, or it can be used for you, and the part that you have control over, the, the, the part of your brain, the, the ego, whatever you wanna call it, that calls the shots. Instead of giving in, saying, "I'm helpless" in the face of the DMN, say, "No, fuck that." [laughs] Pardon my language. But I'm not helpless in the face of that. I can do the following things, and I, and I've learned how to do them, and so I don't have to suffer the, the way, you know, I have suffered so much in my life. And that's another thing. We, we suffer a lot because of these sensitivities. You mentioned the RSD. I mean, w- we have, we have paths of, of misery that we, that we walk down habitually. So we need to learn how to w- walk off that path, and walk down another path. Um-

Alex Partridge 1:14:59 What about if someone's lying in the middle of the... Like, they're trying to sleep, and then those intrusive thoughts come, uh, come into their mind then, and they're lying in bed, and suddenly they can't stop thinking about how much of a worthless piece of shit they are, and they can't sleep because of that, and it's too late to go for a run, or it's cold outside. Do you have any advice for someone in that particular-

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:15:17 Yeah, change your physical state. Take a shower. Uh, you don't have to go for a run, but get up, walk around. Uh, just moving will change your brain chemistry. You don't have to be vigorous, but, uh, walking up and down stairs, y- your, your brain chemistry will change dramatically. Uh, th- the worst thing to do is just to lie in bed helpless. [laughs] You sort of said, you might as well just say, "Okay, have at me, you know? Just ruin me, eviscerate me." 'Cause that's what it'll do. You're lying there passively, and it'll just rip you up and down, and, and your lying there passively is basically giving it tacit permission to do it. So, so, it, it... And it can feel that you have no power, 'cause when the DMN is in full force, it all but immobilizes you. So you gotta take every ounce of strength you've got and get out of bed, you know, and go to the bathroom and splash water on your face, or slap your face, or some kind of stimulation that, you know, that, that, uh... Or get angry, or, you know, um, um, you know, put on some loud music and put on headphones so you won't wake up the person you're with. What... You, you can bring it to an end. Uh, the worst thing is to believe that you can't, or that you deserve it. That's another one. That's another one, because we, as a group, c- can- tend to have such low self-esteem that we th- we think we deserve punishment, and that's, and that we're, you know, maybe we acquired that, that as a child. Wherever we acquired it, there's a tendency we have not to stick up for ourselves with ourselves. We, we tend to accept whatever punishment we dish out, and we shouldn't. It's the DMN doing that. It's not you, whatever you is. Let's face it, you is a collection of many different yous, and, and so some of those yous are piss-poor not allies, you know? And, and, uh, for whatever reason, you know, uh, th- there's parts of all of us that don't have our best interests at heart, you know? That, that, that lead us into terrible situations that it should lead us away from. So you, you're, all of you is not always on your side. So you, you see, you wanna, you wanna have your healthy side take arms against your self-destructive side, your unhealthy side, the side of you that's not rooting for you. And, uh, and you can do that, but you need to l- line it up that way. So many of us, when it comes to our inner lives, we think we're the victims of fate, you know? That, "This is who I am, this is my temperament, this is my genetics. I have no choice." To some extent you have no choice, but to another extent, you do have a choice. So try to exercise however much choice you've got to, uh, to bring, um, to bring under, to bring the demons under control, and, and to not think that you're the victim of a terrible science experiment. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:18:07 So fascinating.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:18:08 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:18:09 I wanna do the ADHD agony aunt section next.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:18:12 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:18:12 Um, and it's called The Washing Machine of Woes.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:18:15 Okay.

Alex Partridge 1:18:15 I asked my community to send me their biggest ADHD woes, and it goes in the washing machine, because my ADHD item is, is a washing machine, because I always forget my laundry in the machine.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:18:24 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:18:25 Do you forget your laundry in the machine?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:18:26 Oh, yes.

Alex Partridge 1:18:27 Yes. [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:18:27 Oh, yes, yes.

Alex Partridge 1:18:28 Not alone.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:18:28 Yeah, yeah, yes, yes.

Alex Partridge 1:18:29 Um, well, I'm getting better, 'cause I'm using the Tiimo app-

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:18:31 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:18:31 ... which is the sponsor of the show. But, uh, this week, someone's asked, "I'm pretty sure my wife has ADHD, and I've told her as such, but she takes it as an insult. I think she'd really benefit from a diagnosis, but she doesn't want to talk about it. How can I convince her it's for the greater good?"

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:18:49 Uh, truth. I mean, uh, give her examples of, of, of, I mean, Nobel Prize winners, game changers, the most innovators, most entrepreneurs. I mean, her, her, her belief is rooted in ignorance and rumor and bad things people say about you, you know? [laughs] And, and so the, the, the antidote is truth, and, and truth is very much on our side. Yes, there's a downside to this, but the upside is so much bigger. And, and, and what we've got going for us, you can't buy or teach, so you're, you're lucky i- in effect that you have this, and then we can help you get past the... But we can't help you if you're sitting there with your head in the sand saying, "There, there's no hope, and, that this is made up, and..." So y- you gotta come at her... M- remember, meet her where she is, just don't leave her there. So you meet her where she is. You validate all her fears. You validate, say, "I understand you have these feelings that are very real. I'm not saying they're unreal or they're stupid at all. Uh, but I'm, I'm saying, you know, there's some facts you're not taking into account. And if you did take them into account, these other things would look a lot different." You know, so I, I do this a lot. A lot of people who come to see me, adults who come to see me, um, come because their spouse i- is at wit's end and saying, "If you don't go see Hallowell, I'm gonna leave you," you know? So, and so, and so I'm just [laughs] I've been given this sort of very volatile de- but the, the mandate is convince them that what they've got is good, not bad. And so I've, I've gotten pretty good at doing that. But it always starts with meet them where they are.

Alex Partridge 1:20:23 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:20:23 Tell me, give me your best shot, and then he'll say, "This is just a lot of bullshit, and you, you guys," you know. And, and I, I hear it through, and I say, "Okay," you know, and, uh, l- let's begin, you know, inch-by-inch, fact-by-fact and see if we can't, you know, dismantle your, your, your belief system.

Alex Partridge 1:20:45 Mm. That's brilliant. Thank you very much.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:20:47 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:20:48 A topic that comes up time and time again on this podcast is RSD. We've mentioned it briefly.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:20:53 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 1:20:53 Rejection sensitivity dysphoria.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:20:55 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alex Partridge 1:20:55 Um, I think it'll be very quite familiar with the listeners.

Alex Partridge 1:20:59 Do you think RSD serves an evolutionary process?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:21:04 Well, yeah. I mean, l- like every- there's always positive and negative. And, uh, being super sensitive, uh, there's a definite positivity to it. You can detect a little, you know, a branch breaking in the forest. You hear it, and it's actually a saber-toothed tiger coming to eat you up. So being exquisitely sensitive has its advantage, but, uh, the disadvantage is we perceive as danger what isn't dangerous at all. You know, I mean, uh, my, at the end of that lecture, my seeing that one woman who was scowling, my interpreting that as an attack on me, it's just so stupid, you know? Uh, but, but we, losing perspective, we d- we do that.

Alex Partridge 1:21:43 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:21:43 And, and, um, and, and we become convinced of these really sad, unfortunate, stupid, uh, ideas. So I think you b- you begin by being open to the fact that we have it in our, in ourselves to be really stupid, really, uh, poor self-observers in, in a way that, that, that is very destructive. I mean, we sort of snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory, you know? We, we take a wonderful life and turn it into a sucky life because we, we buy into these, these... We misinterpret these... You know, it's like someone says to me, "Uh, uh, I like your tie." And I'll say, "You mean you don't like my shirt?" You know? I mean, you know, it, it, it's [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:22:28 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:22:29 We, we can turn even a compliment into-

Alex Partridge 1:22:31 Mm

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:22:31 ... you know, into some possible negative, you know? And, and, uh, so y- but again, it comes back to education, learning, learning how to combat this stuff. Uh, you know, hoping i- i- hoping is good. Hope is wonderful, but hope is not a strategy. So you need a strategy to, to bolster your hope, to implement your hope-

Alex Partridge 1:22:51 Mm

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:22:52 ... to turn it into something effective.

Alex Partridge 1:22:55 What do you think ADHD looks like if it's managed wrongly?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:22:58 Oh, it's the prison population. It's the white crime. It's the people who, you know, perpetrate evil and wrongness in this world that, you know, it's, uh, it's, uh, the people who, who think, uh, their addiction is their only chance for pleasure in life, you know? The, the people who, uh, uh, who, who hate themselves so much that they don't see any point in trying to take care of themselves, you know? So it, it, it's, it's tragic. It really is tragic. It, it, it, it's, and it's, it's rooted in ignorance and the loss of hope, you know, that, that I, I don't see any, any hope, and so why shouldn't I just, you know, do whatever I wanna do, drink whatever I want, inject whatever I want, snort whatever I want, 'cause it only, it gives me the very few moments of pleasure that I ever get. But someone's gotta come along and offer you a better way. You know, like meet them where they are, but don't leave them there. And, uh, exhorting, that's okay, but exhorting won't do the trick usually. You know, they, they get too many lectures and exhortations, too many Tony Robbins presentations. And Tony Robbins is a wonderful man, but what he's got to offer w- doesn't last. You get all inspired and exercised and lathered up, and 48 hours later, you're back where you were, you know? So what, what you need is a tool that will be with you after the exhortation is over. So never worry alone is, is a tool, for example. Um, uh, knowing about the DMN and how to combat it is a tool, for example. So you're not relying on inspiration. You're re- you're relying on, on tools and strategies that, that will pull you out of the slough of despond, you know?

Alex Partridge 1:24:46 And if it's managed correctly, what does ADHD look like?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:24:49 Nobel Prizes You know, Pulitzer Prizes, you know, uh, uh, successful podcasts, the best podcast going, you know? I mean, uh, joy ultimately, you know, that, that we are natural creators and, and, uh, to see our creative energy turned into a product that other people like, that's pretty gratifying. So, so that's, that's what it's, it, it is, you know, properly managed. Uh, it's successful love, you know? Love that, it, that goes back and forth and is not misunderstood, misinterpreted, or disappointed. Uh, y- y- it sounds hard to come by, but it's really not if you, if you are open and honest and, and, and aren't judgemental. I mean, you know, for all the morality is a, is a good thing and blah, blah, blah, it fosters a judgemental approach to life that is just horribly pain inflicting, you know? And, and it just, it just, it, it's, it's a great example of a system that is well-meaning, that people defend to the end, end, end of their lives, that I think does more damage than good, you know? It, it, it, it... People end up feeling ashamed every day for no good reason because of the judgment of other people.

Alex Partridge 1:26:06 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:26:07 And, um, um, you know, who of us is without sin? I mean, who is this... Who of us is flawless? None of us is flawless. So why don't we leave the judging to other powers, invisible forces, and not assume judgeship ourselves, you know? I mean, it, it just is very damaging. And, and what's makes it worse is people are often self-righteous about it. "I know. I have the sword of truth in my hand," or whatever. And, and, and as a result, people are miserable, and then, and then people get offended, and then they get hurt, and then they go to war, you know? And that's what war... You know, people say, "I demand justice." What they're really saying is, "I demand revenge." You know? And that's the s- that's the history of the world, hurt followed by hurt followed by hurt. I wrote a book about forgiveness. Of all my books, that has sold the least. [laughs] It's a tough sell. If I wa- if I wanna write a bestseller, I should write a book called Get Even.

Alex Partridge 1:27:02 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:27:03 That would fly off the shelves, you know? I mean, that would just be a huge bestseller, you know? 'Cause it's natural... It's, it's, it's reflexive in us to seek revenge when someone we love has been hurt or when we've been hurt. It just, it's natural. So what I say i- in the book and I say to people, "Okay, you've been hurt, horribly hurt, unjustly hurt, or someone you love has been. What do you want that pain to turn into?" And the immediate response is, "Someone else's pain. I want them to hurt as much as, if not more than I do. And God damn it, I'm gonna put them in an electric chair, or I'm gonna hang them, or I'm gonna, you know, you know, haunt them." You know. And then I say, "Is that really rewarding to you, to have someone else hurt as much as you hurt? W- what's the reward in that? It, it, it's, it's, it's, uh, pretty, pretty bad, you know?" And- and then if they think about it, they'll say, "Well, what should I want? What- what's a, what's a better thing than other person suffering pain?" My answer is growth. You know? Have your pain turn into your growth. You, you grow big enough to, uh, see the futility and ultimate destructive nature of revenge. It's what keeps wars going.

Alex Partridge 1:28:18 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:28:18 It's what keeps feuds alive, you know? That, the, giving in to this very primitive, natural feeling of, "I've been hurt or someone I love has been hurt, and I wanna make that person hurt." And then we throw in the criminal justice system, "I demand revenge," which really means I demand, uh, you know, I, I demand justice, which really means I demand revenge. So we've, we've built revenge into the legal system, and we quote, "An eye for an eye," you know? Gandhi's response to that was a great one. "You take an eye for an eye, and pretty soon the whole world is blind," you know? And, and, um, uh, so any, any modicum of wisdom, uh, discounts this kind of judging system where humans assume judgment over other humans. It, it just... We're not equipped to do it. And, and we're, we're, we're so subject, uh, for primitive forces to rule us, and, and right at the top of that list is, is, is, is vengeance. Uh, most of the wars that have been fought, well, the, the stuff we're seeing happening right now, uh, it- it's all about hurt people hurting people. You know, that's a saying from AA, "Hurt people hurt people." But it's true. You, if you've been hurt and you're not careful, you'll set about trying to hurt other people, and, and you gotta have an, a- an attack of wisdom, an attack of higher cortical function to say, "No, idiot, that's just gonna make things worse." Well, unfortunately, there aren't enough people who are big enough to say that to themselves. Instead, they, they give in to their most primitive side, and they, they put, uh, their time, e- effort, money, and creativity into hurting other people, um, because they've been hurt. Now, if you... What good does that do? None. It just continues the miserable story of the, the world, you know, that we've been living for an awful long time. [coughs] It's time for us to stop that, you know? And, um, and we have it in our power to do. It's like we need to build our brakes. We need to strengthen our brakes and, and stop giving in to our appetite for a bloodbath.

Alex Partridge 1:30:29 I was reflecting on the washing machine of woes-

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:30:31 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:30:31 ... the ADHD agony aunt question-

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:30:32 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:30:33 ... and, and the, the, the damage that undiagnosed ADHD can do in relationships.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:30:38 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:30:39 What do you think the cost is of undiagnosed ADHD in romantic relationships?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:30:44 Oh, pain, destruction, misery, misery, and death. I mean, you know, it, it, it, it, it is the biggest love killer you can have, you know? And, and it's a shame because we ADers, we are so romantic. We are so- Wanting to give and receive love, um, i- in general. A- and, and, and to see it all mucked up by, uh, not understanding that you, that you, you are ruled by w- wrong judgments and, um, uh, and that end up turning you against the person you once loved. What's worse than that? I mean, y- y- y- you know, o- obviously plague, famine, and pestilence is worse than that, but in an individual life, what could be worse than seeing love turn into indifference or hatred? I mean, and, and particularly if it's preventable, and I would submit it's always preventable. It's always preventable. That isn't to say bad things, bad unpredictable things can happen, bad unpreventable things can happen, but what you do with that i- is, is, is somewhat, you know, up to you. Now, I don't mean to say it's easy. It's very difficult. Being courageous in moments of despair or, or intense misery is hard. It's much easier to lash out and blame. You know, that's why after something bad happens, y- you know, there's always someone's gotta pay. Someone's gotta off with their head. Someone's gotta get fired or, you know, you know, shamed or, you know, as, as if this is some law of, uh, life. And it's not. You know, you, you don't have to live that way. So I, I hate it when pe- when... I, I see a lot of couples, and I, I can tell you, the diagnosis of ADD w- is absolutely relationship saving. When someone says, "I, I'm, I'm gonna leave my husband," or, "I'm gonna leave my wife," I say, "Before you do that, please come in to see me together." And nine times out of, uh, 10, the, the person's ADD has not been diagnosed, and diagnosing it and implementing a treatment saves the relationship. 'Cause after all, relationship began in a positive place. You don't fall in love with, you know, someone you don't like [laughs] . You know, so it, it began with a, a, a big ball of positive energy. So, so there was at some point in time something really, really specially good there and, and, and untreated, a unrecognized ADD can tear it down. And the other partner says, "I'm, I can't take it anymore. He's always late. He's always unreli- liable. He never keeps his promises. He loses job after job after job. I'm out of here." I say, "Well, before you leave, let's see if there's a reason for these bad things happening that we can actually fix." And the reason I love my job is we can usually fix it, and to the point of saving the relationship. And, and it's not that... What we really are saving is saving the love. You know, k- keeping that ball of energy alive, whether they stay together or not, you know? That, that, um, it, it's, s- y- Life is so hard and so difficult. To see genuine love dismissed is tragic, i- particularly if it can be prevented, if it can be salvaged. And I'm in a business where I can salvage... It's not I that do it, but it's the knowledge I have-

Alex Partridge 1:34:15 Mm

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:34:15 ... that does it. And, and it, and empower these people to do it. And, and, um, it's a great thing.

Alex Partridge 1:34:24 Spoken to lots of relationship therapists and, and there's a commonality in the advice is that, uh, awareness of, of ADHD is a game changer for the longevity of a relationship, and I do agree, but on the other hand, that doesn't alter the fact that there is still gonna be massive frustrations. Like you said, you're still gonna be late. There's still gonna be patience and arguments. Is there anything couples can do to help even after they've got that awareness piece, to help, as you said, salvage that ball?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:34:50 Oh, a- absolutely. You, you've gotta set in, implant a, a program that will lead to change. You know, ADD is an explanation, but it's not an excuse. I can't say to the IRS, "Oh, gee, I don't pay taxes. I forget. I have ADD." [laughs] That's not gonna-

Alex Partridge 1:35:05 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:35:05 That's not gonna ca- carry the day. You know, so I have to learn some way to get my taxes paid, and in my case, I hire someone else to do it. By the way, delegation is a great tool in, in, in our world. But it begins with my taking responsibility for doing that. You know? The... You, you can't just slough it off and say, "I've got ADD, so I'm always gonna be late. I'm always gonna forget your birthday. I'm always..." We're so bad self... My favorite story of illustrating how bad self-observers. I was doing, uh, couples therapy and the, uh, the, we're talking about division of labor in the relationship, and the husband had the ADD and the wife didn't. So the husband pounds his hips, "I do 50% of the work here. I take out the trash." And he thought that was 50% of the work [laughs] . You know, he... It, it just, you know, we are so clueless when it comes to what is actually going on. And, and so part of the work is to, is to, first of all, get an accurate assessment of reality and then talk about... And, and in fir- in terms of d- devising labor, what you wanna do as much as possible, have each person do what they're, what they're good at or what they hate the least, and then, and then it sort of falls out. And then you have to have a program for enforcing it. If you don't do this, you know, uh... And, and the reason someone doesn't do it is usually not that they're lazy or passive-aggressive. It's usually that they forgot. And we, we literally c- You can say to me, "Take out the trash," and I will agree to do it, and in the time it takes me to walk over to the trash, I've forgotten.

Alex Partridge 1:36:38 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:36:38 'Cause it's such a boring assignment, you know?

Alex Partridge 1:36:41 [laughs] Yeah.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:36:42 So in the time it takes me to walk to the trash, I've thought of something more interesting to do, like make a sandwich or, you know. So, uh, you know, so, so you have to keep that in mind. Now, that's, again, that's not an excuse, uh, but it is an explanation, so, uh, that's when you invoke your creativity and how, how do you remember things. How do you, how do you remember things that you've been asked to do? And the... You're not remembering. Th- this is where the other person has to understand. Doesn't mean he doesn't love you Doesn't mean he's a narcissistic jerk, doesn't mean he's being passive-aggressive. It means he's got this lacuna, this hole, in his, in his memory system where if it's not stimulating, it doesn't stick. And, um, uh, you know, and, and, and so... And that doesn't mean you should a- you should attach a painful consequence to forgetting, but you have to think of some more, uh, seductive inducement.

Alex Partridge 1:37:34 Truly fascinating. Thank you so much, Ned.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:37:36 Oh, it's a true pleasure. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:37:39 A very basic question to finish, but I think probably one of the most important questions. How can one harness their ADHD to progress in their life?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:37:48 You know, my analogy is Niagara Falls. You know, ADD, you think of Niagara Falls as just a, a colossal amount of power and, and, and noise and mist until you build a hydroelectric plant. And then you capture that energy, and you light up the state of New York. So how can you build your hydroelectric plant? And, and that, and it's, it usually is a combination of, uh, finding a mission you believe in, finding someone to work with, you don't do it alone. Um, uh, doing the... Y- y- y- it may... See, we are best in a situation that we, where we, it really matters to us, and it's very difficult. We, we, we thrive on difficult, if it matters to us. If it doesn't matter to us, we, we get bored. And, uh, a- and if it's not difficult, we get bored with it. But so that combination matters a lot to us and, and is difficult. Like you're doing this podca- It's very hard to do what you're doing, but it mattered a lot to you, and it, it was difficult, and then you found the ways to make it happen. Y- in other words, you, you, you found a way to turn on the Niagara Falls in you and, and make use of that power, that, that unless it w- unless you'd found the right kind of thing to, to do, y- you wouldn't have, you wouldn't have done that so...

Alex Partridge 1:39:07 How can someone find out what's important to them?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:39:10 Uh, wonderful question. Um, what are the things you'd least like to lose, I guess, would be one way of... What would I be really upset if I couldn't do or if I didn't have? Um, and what is my most cherished hope? Off-the-wall hope. Um, and if I could change the world, how would I do it? I mean, those are the kind of questions to ask. Uh, no answer, but w- what would I lay down my life to hold on to? What... Not many, not many answers to that question. I was talking earlier with, uh, Luke, um, when you become a parent, you immediately would be willing to lay down your life for that child. You know, so that, that matters the hell out of you. But, uh, y- ask these big questions that people don't usually ask. What, what would I die for? If I could change the world, how would I change it? What would I least like to lose? Uh, and, and what, I guess, finally, what's the gift that I've got that other people would want that's worth giving? You ask your average ADD person, they'll say, "Nothing," until they... "There's nothing about me that people would want. There's nothing about me that I wouldn't mind losing. I'm just a big bleeping loser." And, and so you begin there, but then you begin to discover, oh, no, that's not so true. And you have this secret you've hoped, that you've, you've made so secret you've even hidden it from yourself. And then you say, "Well, gee, I actually would love to start a garden," or, "I would love to build a boat," or, "I'd love to start a company." But I couldn't do that. See, that's the immediate answer. I couldn't do that. I could never start a company. How could I possibly do that? Well, you start by finding someone to share your enthusiasm. The, this not doing it alone is so important, uh, because we get, we get, w- we get tired of things. We get bored quickly. See, we're good at beginnings and endings, but the middle, which is where the [laughs] real work is done, we don't wanna do that because it- it's lost its novelty. So, so yeah, I mean, that would be... Those are great questio- People don't ask these ultimate questions often enough. And they're, they're, they don't necessarily have answers, but the process of thinking about it is good for you and can, can lead yourself to places where, you know, you, you can make important decisions, you know?

Alex Partridge 1:41:41 Got a closing tradition, Ned-

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:41:42 Yes

Alex Partridge 1:41:42 ... on the podcast-

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:41:43 Yes

Alex Partridge 1:41:43 ... where I pa- where I hand you, deliver you a letter.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:41:46 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:41:47 And the letter is from the previous guest.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:41:49 Oh, no kidding.

Alex Partridge 1:41:50 The previous guest.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:41:50 To, to the next guest.

Alex Partridge 1:41:52 Previo-

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:41:52 So I, I open the letter?

Alex Partridge 1:41:53 The, yes, the previous guest wrote three rules to live by, and the idea is I deliver the letter to you, and you read what the previous guest wrote.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:42:02 Three rules to live by. Be yourself always. Never change for anyone. Always be free. Strive for financial, personal independence. And give no fucks. [laughs] You'll, you'll never see people again, so say what you want and be who you want. That's great.

Alex Partridge 1:42:27 Ned, this has been truly fascinating and insightful. Thank you so much.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:42:30 Thank you. Thank you, and thank you for the incredible work you do. I mean, you know, it's all about turning the world on to what this condition is really about and how much broader it is than most people realize, and how much more positive it is than most people realize.

Alex Partridge 1:42:46 Thank you so much. We appreciate you popping in whilst you're in London.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:42:48 Thank you. Thank you so much. Uh, I'm honored that you let me and my Lamborghini [laughs] come into your world.

Alex Partridge 1:42:57 Thanks, Ned.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:42:58 Thank you. [upbeat music]

Alex Partridge 1:43:02 What's the most impulsive thing you've ever done?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:43:04 Oh my God, uh, uh, the number of people I've asked to marry me I mean, I, I used to, I, I, I, I-

Alex Partridge 1:43:10 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:43:11 ... I can't tell you how many women I asked to marry me on the first date, and they'd always be, they'd always be sort of taken aback. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:43:17 The first date?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:43:17 Yeah. I'd just say, "We're having fun. Why don't we just make it last forever?" And, and [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:43:24 And any of them said yes?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:43:25 What? No, they didn't. Uh, uh, uh, e- e- even my current wife didn't say yes, but, but, uh, I hunted her down and tied her down and forced her to say yes.

Alex Partridge 1:43:37 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:43:38 So but that, that was, the, the- so it's not the one thing, a repeatedly thing. The most impulsive single thing I've ever done... Well, I'll tell you. It, it, it's, and it was completely unplanned, completely impulsive, and I've only done it once. Quit drinking. Three years ago, for no reason, with no provocation, no support, no plan, uh, no encouragement from anybody, no group, no nothing, I just stopped drinking, and impulsively. I don't know how else to explain it. And it was, it's not like my doctor was telling me to. It's, it's not like... But I was drinking too much. I'm a, I'm a WASP, and that was what I was born to do. So I, you know, I, I'd been drinking heavily ever since I graduated from high school. Go through college. I'd be just... I, I didn't show up for work drunk, but it wasn't like that. But I was re- I was relying on alcohol to give me pleasure, uh, daily, and it worked. It, you know, this, it worked well. The, the bad part was the, the hangover the next day.

Alex Partridge 1:44:44 Mm.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:44:45 You know, or, or, or what I couldn't do, you know. Uh, and, uh, and Sue thinks I did it, she thinks unconsciously, 'cause I wanted to preserve my brain for the work I have yet to do. Sh- she's probably right. She's usually right. But, uh, but I had... It was completely impulsive and completely unplanned, and of all the things I've ever done in my life, the most astonishing. I, I... If you told me even a week before I did that, that I would quit drinking, I'd say, "Yeah, and the sun will stop shining." I mean, you know, it, it, it ain't gonna happen, you know?

Alex Partridge 1:45:21 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:45:21 And, and, and, and, and there it did. I mean, so that's the most impulsive thing I've ever done.

Alex Partridge 1:45:28 What about unread emails? How many unread emails on your phone?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:45:31 Oh, thousands.

Alex Partridge 1:45:33 Yeah.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:45:33 Thousands. And-

Alex Partridge 1:45:33 You're one of us. Def-

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:45:34 What? [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:45:34 Definitely, definitely one of us. [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:45:36 Yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's, it's shameful. I mean, I feel very bad about it, but... And then I lose them, and then I don't respond to them, and I don't know which goes where and what's what and, and, and, and I, you know, it just, it's, it's terrible. I, I, someone will email me and I, and I won't see it, 'cause I, I haven't figured out a filter to keep, keep out all the shit, shitty email, the ones I don't want. So, so, uh, yeah, I've, uh, um, unread emails, many.

Alex Partridge 1:46:03 What about when you go to the shop? What about reusable shopping bags? Do you remember to take those with you?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:46:08 No. No.

Alex Partridge 1:46:08 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:46:08 I've got a big stack of them at home, and Sue, Sue, Sue says, "Why do we, why do you keep bringing these home? We, just take them with you." And I, once in a while I'll be in the, in the middle of the shop and I'll think, "Oh my God, I left it in the car." I'll go running out and get it.

Alex Partridge 1:46:20 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:46:21 But usually it just, I, I just have to get one of the bags the, the store gives me. The other thing, uh, along those lines, if I go shopping, uh, uh, if I go shopping to, to get a quart of milk, and I, Whole Foods is where I go, I will come out with $150 worth of groceries.

Alex Partridge 1:46:40 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:46:40 I mean, I just, talk about impulsive. I just go, "That looks good. That looks good." Then the quart of milk I'd even forget.

Alex Partridge 1:46:45 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:46:45 I'd leave without the quart of milk, you know? But, uh, you know, so I, I am... And the reason I am... There's two reasons that I'm not a wealthy man. Number one is I invested, we invested in the education of our children. We, we, I added up how much we've spent on their education. It's $6 million that I would have today that I don't have, because we invested in their education. And the other thing is I am, I don't know, pathologically or, or unusually generous. I, I just give things away, and, and you, you name it. I mean, I just... Sue says I'm a shopaholic. You know, uh, uh, someone was house-sitting for me, uh, uh, picking up our stuff while I was out, and he said, "Are, are you, are you starting a retail business?"

Alex Partridge 1:47:32 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:47:32 Because I had all these boxes from Amazon on the porch.

Alex Partridge 1:47:35 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:47:36 And, and so, um, yeah, the, that I, I, I think it's, I think it's because when I was born, my mother looked down at my eyes, she told me this, and, and she said to me, "You're gonna make us happy." And I think somehow or other that became my role in this world, and I've really been, ever since, been trying to make people happy. And, and one way is by celebrating, you know, with, with food and, and drink, you know? [laughs] And, and, uh, and I, I, I really love making someone happy. I mean, that's my business, and, and I, I, I do it for a living. And, you know, I, I, I gotta be careful not to become too much of a cheerleader, you know, 'cause I, what I really wanna say is, "Banquet, let's have it. Let's do it." I mean, so I have to, I have to tailor it a little bit to the person's individuality. But, uh, yeah, it's the biggest kick I get is to see people happy. Uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, I don't mean to sound saintly, it's just, it's just a biological drive that I have. And, uh, you know, my favorite book that I've written, I've written 23 books, my favorite one is not about ADD. It's, it's about raising children. It's called The Childhood Roots of Adult Happiness. And, um, I really nailed it in that book. But the reason I love the book so much is it's all my kids are in it, and they're wonderful stories. I mean, uh, Tucker, our youngest, you know, he, he was growing and I said, "Tucker, would you please stop growing?" And he said, he always likes to do what he's told to do, he said, "But Daddy, I can't control my heightness." [laughs] Heightness. And the same son, we were driving in, in the, in the winter in New England to a Thanksgiving, and it was late at night, and I was getting tired, and Tucker from the backseat said, "I have to pee." Well, I very grumpily, 'cause I've learned not to ignore that request, I very, "All right, Tucker." I pulled over and I said, "Yes." I pulled over into a snowbank and I said, "Get out and hurry up." So he got out. Finally got back in. I said, "Tucker, what took you so long?" He said, "Oh, Daddy, I was writing your name in the snow with my pee." [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:49:59 [laughs]

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:50:00 Immediately I forgave him, and all the a- anger was gone. I mean, there's so many stories like that. I mean, uh-

Alex Partridge 1:50:06 Ned or Edward?

Dr. Ned Hallowell 1:50:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. [laughs] Yeah. Oh, it's, uh, it, it just, you know, life should be an ongoing feast and, and, but we need to feed each other. I think that's where people, uh, that's where people miss, miss the boat. There's something, people can be so reticent about, so withholding, you know? And I'm the opposite, so I, the, so I feel disappointed, like, w- what have I done wrong? Why haven't I pleaded, or how have I overstepped, or how have I said something inappropriate? Which I do all the time, you know? But, um, but we, w- I think we, we, again, it comes back to what Lucy said. We hold back on life out of fear. We, we, we'd rather, rather not be wrong than be right. 'Cause being right, you gotta take a chance. Not being wrong, you don't have to do anything.