The RSD Expert: This New Trick Will Stop RSD In 10 Seconds

1. 0:00 – 2:14

   Trailer

   1. SBSam Bramwell0:00

      For ADHD women, we've grown up in a world where we've not really felt that we belong. We've had the feedback, "Oh, you're only gonna be average at doing something." And we're living in a world right now which is all about overachievement, and if you're not living up to that standard, you start to feel that you're falling short of it. And I think that's why a lot of us feel that we're not enough. Imagine having a bottle of soda, and we shake it up.

   2. APAlex Partridge0:21

      Mm.

   3. SBSam Bramwell0:22

      If you get a top, screw top, you can release a bit of the gas off and little bubbles float on top-

   4. APAlex Partridge0:26

      Yes

   5. SBSam Bramwell0:26

      ... and you've got a, what I call a happy-ish, but slight excitement nervous system. Or you just take it off really quickly and it just overspills. With that nervous system, because if we're struggling with that sense of belonging, and connection, and safety, we might also go into collapse and withdrawal. So we won't pull ourselves into things. We turn up, but no one's really there. We withdraw. So you might see those two types of behaviors happening, the kind of ADHD nervous system at work.

   6. APAlex Partridge0:50

      If you've got this nervous system that is so ready to explode, how does one sooth a nervous system like that?

   7. SBSam Bramwell0:56

      Well, there's loads of different things you can do. One of the first things is to just to-

   8. APAlex Partridge1:02

      Loyal listeners and viewers, I can't thank you enough for tuning into ADHD Chatter, where we ask world leading ADHD experts the hard questions, to give you access to the most cutting edge information on the topic. If you've ever felt broken or different, I hope this helps in your search for information, answers, and community. And do you know what would really help me in return? By clicking the follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening. It might not seem like much, but at ADHD Chatter, it means a huge deal, and with this, I can book more incredible guests and keep the self-discovery fire alive for all of us, including myself. Just one click of a button goes a lot further than you think. We'll promise to listen to your feedback and book the guests you want on topics that matter to you. And remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Sam, thank you so much for joining us.

   9. SBSam Bramwell1:56

      Thank you for inviting me. It's amazing.

   10. APAlex Partridge1:58

       It's a pleasure to have you in the ADHD Chatter studio, with all of the-

   11. SBSam Bramwell2:02

       Yeah

   12. APAlex Partridge2:02

       ... items behind us. Your item is patiently waiting under the cloth-

   13. SBSam Bramwell2:06

       Exciting

   14. APAlex Partridge2:06

       ... which we will, uh, reveal later. Um, but firstly, Sam, just to sort of set a foundation for the episode,

2. 2:14 – 3:45

   What is your mission within the ADHD space

   1. APAlex Partridge2:14

      what's your mission, would you say, in terms of ADHD?

   2. SBSam Bramwell2:18

      Great question. Uh, I think there's probably three parts to it, as ever.

   3. APAlex Partridge2:21

      Okay.

   4. SBSam Bramwell2:21

      There's never one, is there? [laughs]

   5. APAlex Partridge2:22

      [laughs]

   6. SBSam Bramwell2:22

      In our heads. Um, number one is, um, obviously I've, I've been a leader in technology for a long time, now, um, as an ADHD coach for leaders, was how do I help people like me, who have ADHD, in organizations to thrive and survive?

   7. APAlex Partridge2:38

      Mm. Okay.

   8. SBSam Bramwell2:38

      Because surviving in a corporate space can be quite hard when you can't read, read the room, or, um, it's not fit for your brain. Um, so the second part is then how do I help organizations, um, support their employees better, uh, and also create processes and procedures that are fit for maybe ADHD customers? You know, access to work right now is more like inaccess to work, you know, because those, those experiences are really poor for us. So that's number two. And then number three is a really big one for me, which is how can I help, um, younger people, um, who are growing up with ADHD find their way of being in the world and, um, give them, hopefully, a role model that can show them that you can achieve things in some way, and, and kind of show them that way, and make them feel that they're, they can be part of that, and that they don't... They, they, they belong, and they deserve to be here.

   9. APAlex Partridge3:32

      It's almost quite uncanny hearing someone who I've just met sort of share three missions that I, I already can tell w- would have massively helped-

   10. SBSam Bramwell3:40

       Yeah

   11. APAlex Partridge3:41

       ... in my career-

   12. SBSam Bramwell3:41

       Yeah

   13. APAlex Partridge3:42

       ... and, and moments up until-

   14. SBSam Bramwell3:43

       Yeah

   15. APAlex Partridge3:43

       ... this moment.

   16. SBSam Bramwell3:44

       Yeah.

3. 3:45 – 9:14

   The ADHD nervous system explained

   1. APAlex Partridge3:45

      What do you think it is about the, the nervous system of someone who has ADHD that, that makes it a requirement for you to go on that mission?

   2. SBSam Bramwell3:53

      So, um, I've been doing so much work on, onto the nervous system and ADHD. I've been training as a polyvagal therapist over the last, um, little while, and w- we're very highly sensitive. I c- I see that in a lot of my clients, and I think we, you know, uh, uh, and you, you'll, you'll know from your own experience, having, with emotional dysregulation and kind of RSD, um, I think it's just, uh, I want people to feel safe and to feel connected. And so if I can help enable that through the work that I do, whether it's, you know, the articles that I write, um, sharing a perspective, doing work in schools, then I will feel that I've actually managed to contribute something, um, to the world and made the world a better place-

   3. APAlex Partridge4:33

      Mm

   4. SBSam Bramwell4:33

      ... for those people.

   5. APAlex Partridge4:34

      It feels like people with ADHD are in a constant survival mode.

   6. SBSam Bramwell4:40

      Mm.

   7. APAlex Partridge4:41

      They're constantly scanning for criticisms and rejections-

   8. SBSam Bramwell4:45

      Threats

   9. APAlex Partridge4:46

      ... because they're so fearful of the response that they will feel, the pain that they will feel if they encounter one.

   10. SBSam Bramwell4:52

       Mm-hmm.

   11. APAlex Partridge4:52

       So they're constantly on alert, constantly wide-eyed, and it's the actions that they take that make it possible to avoid encountering one, um, that can do a lot of damage, the people pleasing, the perfectionism-

   12. SBSam Bramwell5:07

       Mm

   13. APAlex Partridge5:07

       ... the overworking. All of these things that we're consciously sometimes, or subconsciously most of the time probably, doing in order to protect ourselves from that horrendous feeling of RSD.

   14. SBSam Bramwell5:19

       Mm-hmm.

   15. APAlex Partridge5:20

       Having a nervous system that is in survival mode all the time, what consequences, what are the risks of that if someone leaves their safe space and they go out into the world?

   16. SBSam Bramwell5:31

       Well, I mean, the first thing I'd say is that actually the, the risk is greater to themselves. So when we're in high alert, the, the cortisol spike we g- get creates an inflammatory response in the body, and that then is almost like the, the path laying for things like, you know, heart attacks, cancer, uh, migraines, um, and that kind of... And we, there's, there's a body of work I believe now that's uncovering the fact that we might have a higher inflammatory response compared to neurotypical people. So the damage is being done internally. It's almost like a, a harm to us. Uh, and then, um, if we're in that state of high alerts, we're in a fight or flight mode, um, you know, all the adrenal gland, ground, glands are going. But we then enter into a world where we're expecting some kind of danger to be happening, so we then respond in-In a, in a way assuming that we're about to, the dinosaurs are coming, right?

   17. APAlex Partridge6:22

       Yes.

   18. SBSam Bramwell6:22

       And that's kind of what we're, we're expecting to see-

   19. APAlex Partridge6:24

       Yes

   20. SBSam Bramwell6:24

       ... Tyrannosaurus rex kind of roaming down the road, but that's not really what's happening. Um, in our brains, there are also kind of glitches. I call it the tech glitches. So we have, um, all people predict things, right? They predict what's gonna happen based on past experiences, but ours can get a bit glitchy, so we start to predict and make prediction areas, errors in, in the way we see things. So we may anticipate something being worse than it is, um, and then that just sort of feeds back into the system when we... And we, we don't get that resolved properly-

   21. APAlex Partridge6:55

       Yes

   22. SBSam Bramwell6:55

       ... um, with our, with our nervous system. So yeah, it can be quite challenging for us.

   23. APAlex Partridge6:58

       Perceiving or seeing rejection when it's not there-

   24. SBSam Bramwell7:02

       Mm-hmm

   25. APAlex Partridge7:02

       ... i- is so common.

   26. SBSam Bramwell7:03

       Yeah.

   27. APAlex Partridge7:03

       You know, I've said that example before. If your, if your boss asks you for a quick chat, but without any context, you jump to the worst-

   28. SBSam Bramwell7:11

       Yeah

   29. APAlex Partridge7:11

       ... case scenario.

   30. SBSam Bramwell7:11

       Yeah.
4. 9:14 – 13:06

   RSD at work

   1. APAlex Partridge9:14

      desperately trying to avoid the pain of rejection, how does that show up at work?

   2. SBSam Bramwell9:20

      I think it can show up in, in a couple of different ways. Um, so one is it, you could be, um... Imagine having a bottle of pop, soda, right?

   3. APAlex Partridge9:32

      Sure.

   4. SBSam Bramwell9:32

      And we shake it up.

   5. APAlex Partridge9:33

      Mm.

   6. SBSam Bramwell9:34

      And that nervous system, if you, if you get a top, screw top, you can release a bit of the gas off, and it just, the little bubbles float on top-

   7. APAlex Partridge9:41

      Yes

   8. SBSam Bramwell9:41

      ... and you've got a, what I call a happy-ish but slight excitement nervous system, or you just take it off really quickly, and it just overspills. So I think you might see that overspill happen. Um, with that nervous system, because if we're struggling with that sense of belonging and connection and safety, we might also go into collapse and withdrawal, so we won't pull ourselves into things. We, we turn up, but no one's really there. We withdraw socially. We don't engage. So you might see those two types of behaviors happening, um, with people with a, with a kind of ADHD nervous system at work.

   9. APAlex Partridge10:14

      Mm.

   10. SBSam Bramwell10:15

       Yeah.

   11. APAlex Partridge10:16

       Brilliant analogy. Um-

   12. SBSam Bramwell10:17

       Yeah

   13. APAlex Partridge10:18

       ... i- it's perfect description. It's, it's the, it's... People don't see it as well. It, it's the buildup sometimes of the stress, and it can be the little, the little comment that snaps the bottle top off-

   14. SBSam Bramwell10:32

       Completely

   15. APAlex Partridge10:32

       ... and you explode, but no one else sees that.

   16. SBSam Bramwell10:34

       Yeah.

   17. APAlex Partridge10:34

       So someone then calls you, "All right, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde."

   18. SBSam Bramwell10:36

       Yeah.

   19. APAlex Partridge10:36

       "You were fine a minute ago, and now you've just exploded," but 'cause no one sees that invisible buildup.

   20. SBSam Bramwell10:41

       Yeah.

   21. APAlex Partridge10:41

       But you're aware of it.

   22. SBSam Bramwell10:42

       Yeah, and it could be, you know, so many things will have built up over the time. So, you know, you may have been late in the morning, you've forgotten something, had to go back to the house. You may have had a row with somebody.

   23. APAlex Partridge10:51

       Mm.

   24. SBSam Bramwell10:51

       All of this stuff is happening underneath the surface. Uh, and it's just, yeah, you, it's one thing that just kind of tips you over the edge, and it could be as simple as someone looking at you funny or-

   25. APAlex Partridge11:01

       Yes

   26. SBSam Bramwell11:01

       ... an eye roll or-

   27. APAlex Partridge11:02

       Yes

   28. SBSam Bramwell11:02

       ... a silence or a sigh even from your boss, and you're like, " [gasps] I'm gonna be fired. Oh my gosh," and everything just kind of spills over. Um, yeah.

   29. APAlex Partridge11:09

       People with ADHD tend to be, from my experience, super intuitive, aware. We pick up on those little micro-

   30. SBSam Bramwell11:18

       Mm
5. 13:06 – 17:50

   How to sooth the ADHD nervous system

   1. APAlex Partridge13:06

      pop off, how does one sooth a nervous system like that?

   2. SBSam Bramwell13:10

      Well, there's loads of different things you can do. Um, one of the first things is to just to befriend it, so getting to know it. So there's a, there's a num- we call it the, um, the autonomic ladder. So getting to know, um... If you think about the nervous system, we talk about the big vagus nerve, which is this sort of ancient nerve, and it's, it came online millions and millions of years ago with the kind of, with, with evolution. Um, and there are three parts to it. There's dorsal vagal, uh, which is all about the kind of the story of protection, if you like. And, um, when we're in dorsal vagal, it's sort of, um, the dorsal vagus nerve is responsible for digestion, but it's, it's a story of withdrawal, disconnection. Um, and then you have... And that's part of your para- parasympathetic. Then you have your sympathetic nervous system, which is the sort of fight or flight, ready to go, and that's a story of, um, of protection, if you like. And then the latest nerve, um, part of it is called ventral vagal, which is all about the story of connection and safety, and we're wired for connection as, as humans. So befriending your nervous system, the, some of the things that we do, um, or I do is, is h- is we map it, and we start to give it colors. We start to say, "The world is... When I'm in this state, the world is, people are, and I am." And just, you know, most people will go, "Well, when I'm in dorsal, it feels really sludgy and heavy. I feel like a bit of a mole. I'm, I'm withdrawn. I don't wanna talk to people." And so just learning to understand the nuance of your states, because one of the things I find with a lot of my clients is we go from it's all black and white. There's no sort of gray in between.

   3. APAlex Partridge14:43

      Yes.

   4. SBSam Bramwell14:43

      So being able to sort of understand and analyze the state a little bit and say, "Am I really in this state, or am I, is it something else? I'm actually, I'm actually hungry, right? But actually now I've, I've perceived that I'm a, I'm a bit grumpy." So we do that first of all. Um, and w- we teach something called a vagal break, so helping people to kind of put a break on that speedy feeling that we might feel as we-

   5. APAlex Partridge15:04

      Yes

   6. SBSam Bramwell15:04

      ... as we rev up the, the, the Ferrari motor brain-

   7. APAlex Partridge15:07

      Mm

   8. SBSam Bramwell15:07

      ... or we rev that up. But doing simple things like breathing, making the voo sound. If you, if you did the voo sound, like voo, that has a really calming impact on your nervous system. Um, what we tend not to do is do what we know, right, as, as lots of people will say with our ADHD. So it's just having a kind of like an activation kit that you can pull on, um, and go, "Okay, in my notes app, what are the things I could do if I'm feeling this way?" And, and start to, to kind of play around with those things and see what, what, what works for you, uh, in some way. But there are loads of things we can do somatically. I always say that, um, having ADHD is a bit like being a bobblehead.

   9. APAlex Partridge15:42

      Yes.

   10. SBSam Bramwell15:42

       Everything is like, have this big head, and we're kind of like, it's everything's up here.

   11. APAlex Partridge15:46

       [laughs]

   12. SBSam Bramwell15:46

       And we don't, we don't lean into our felt sense and into our bodies enough. And once you get into your body, you can start to calm yourself, calm yourself down a little bit.

   13. APAlex Partridge15:53

       Mm. So it's, it's a... What's that sound?

   14. SBSam Bramwell15:57

       Voo.

   15. APAlex Partridge15:57

       Voo.

   16. SBSam Bramwell15:57

       So do it. Practice it now.

   17. APAlex Partridge15:58

       Okay.

   18. SBSam Bramwell15:59

       So put your hand on your chest, and just close your eyes for me for a second and just go voo.

   19. APAlex Partridge16:06

       Voo. [laughs]

   20. SBSam Bramwell16:09

       [laughs]

   21. APAlex Partridge16:12

       Voo.

   22. SBSam Bramwell16:13

       You should feel it reverberating in here, but y- i- you might-

   23. APAlex Partridge16:15

       Voo. I can feel the vibration.

   24. SBSam Bramwell16:18

       Yeah. So if you hold it, do it for about 10 seconds, about five, between five and 10 rounds. You may start to feel your system just calm a little bit.

   25. APAlex Partridge16:25

       Sure.

   26. SBSam Bramwell16:26

       And you just... I mean, obviously it's a bit weird us doing it here. Like, but if you were to practice that, you might be able to do it.

   27. APAlex Partridge16:31

       Mm.

   28. SBSam Bramwell16:31

       Um, I teach my clients havening, which is all about psychosensory, again, just working on delta waves and, and things. It's all about just trying to g- to intercept, um, the fizz-

   29. APAlex Partridge16:42

       Mm

   30. SBSam Bramwell16:42

       ... a little bit so that you can just begin to bring yourself into a state of equilibrium, bring the prefrontal cortex back online so that we're not into reaction mode. We're into actually I can take the right action as opposed to a reaction.
6. 17:50 – 23:54

   Subtle ways you’re people pleasing without knowing it

   1. APAlex Partridge17:50

      What do you think are some more subtle ways people pleasing might show up in someone's life that they might not even be aware of?

   2. SBSam Bramwell17:56

      So people pleasing is a really interesting spectrum, because the thing that you were talking about there is actually your need and wanting to connect. That sort of-

   3. APAlex Partridge18:04

      Mm

   4. SBSam Bramwell18:04

      ... I mean, I know there's a bit of a British thing here as well, which is, "Hello. How's your day?"

   5. APAlex Partridge18:06

      Yes. [laughs]

   6. SBSam Bramwell18:07

      And just sort of smile. Um, but there's also that, that desire to want to connect. But at the other end of the spectrum, people pleasing is about performance and identity creation. So I will show you a version of me, even though I don't, I'm doing it, in order for you to accept me in some way that you don't reject me. Um, so those are the subtle things I find with certain people where they, um, kind ofUh, th- they're not always authentically them. They don't realize they're doing it, um, because they're trying to be accepted and, and fit into some kind of a social box, if you like, particularly in the workplace, and it happens a lot with women as well because of sort of social conditioning. But you definitely see that, um, element of it, so, you know, you won't necessarily share your whole opinion in case people don't like it-

   7. APAlex Partridge18:53

      Mm

   8. SBSam Bramwell18:53

      ... for example. It's just those little subtle things I find that, that people do. Um, so yeah, they kind of self-edit a little bit more than, than they probably would do.

   9. APAlex Partridge19:02

      And advice, a- advice around stopping people pleasing or, or-

   10. SBSam Bramwell19:05

       Mm

   11. APAlex Partridge19:05

       ... cutting it back, is that as simple as it sounds? 'Cause it feels like to me, someone who is an alcoholic, if someone, if we were to tackle the drinking and I said to myself, "Well, okay, reduce the drinking or stop it. Don't walk past the alcohol aisle in the supermarket," that's not the solution because I'm not drinking because I like alcohol. I'm drinking because I'm trying to escape some kind of pain in my life.

   12. SBSam Bramwell19:28

       Mm-hmm.

   13. APAlex Partridge19:29

       Is people pleasing essentially trying to escape the pain of RSD and therefore just telling someone to, to, to stop saying no, is that n- not very helpful?

   14. SBSam Bramwell19:40

       I don't think it's very helpful because we've got to get to the root cause of why, you know? Um, I always say that we're, you know, humans are beautiful, beautifully complex layer cakes, right? ADHD is a part of us, but it might not be the only reason you're people pleasing. It's very likely that there's a schema that's been built in from when you were a younger child and, you know, for me it was that I don't belong, right? I don't wanna be rejected. So you're trying to feel safe with others, and you do that by being a, becoming a bit of a chameleon-

   15. APAlex Partridge20:09

       Mm

   16. SBSam Bramwell20:10

       ... to support how you show up. Um, so it, it, for me, I think there's, you know, w- when I have, see people with kind of what I call a high people-pleasing mask, um, we, we, we begin to inquire where the root cause of that might have come from and start to deal with some of the limiting beliefs that might be around that, um, and developing an awareness of how it impacts them in their daily life, um, and how it makes them feel. Because often with people pleasers, you begin to feel quite resentful if you take on too much.

   17. APAlex Partridge20:36

       Mm.

   18. SBSam Bramwell20:37

       And then you're a bit like, "Ugh, woe is me. I'm gonna h- head on down to victim in the drama triangle, and I'm just gonna sit there-

   19. APAlex Partridge20:42

       Yeah. [laughs]

   20. SBSam Bramwell20:42

       ... and beat myself up for like five minutes or five hours." Um, so it, and then it's a beginning to build self-trust, um, around what you can say no to, or using language which is, "I'll get back to you," because we don't like saying no, right? I'm, I'm a recovering people pleaser. We find it really hard. So it's more about, "You know what? Um, let me come back to you on that point," and giving people a different way of dealing with the, the boundary setting. That's, that's how I'd approach it. And, and not going from... I mean, you wouldn't suddenly put, um, an alcoholic and take all their, or you might take all their alcohol away, but do you know what I mean? You wouldn't put them into cold turkey. You might sort of titrate them down a little bit. So just this week, can you do 10% less? Understanding your triggers. Who's the person who triggers you mostly for your people pleasing? Right. For me, it's my big brother, right? He'll laugh when he hears this.

   21. APAlex Partridge21:30

       [laughs]

   22. SBSam Bramwell21:30

       I think it's great. But, you know, so it might be that person, and it's just really understanding the nuances again of where it happens, why it happens, and what you're seeking from it. Um, because it might be a dopamine reward as well, right? We get a-

   23. APAlex Partridge21:42

       Sure

   24. SBSam Bramwell21:43

       ... it's nice to say yes.

   25. APAlex Partridge21:44

       Mm.

   26. SBSam Bramwell21:44

       And sometimes, I don't know about you, but sometimes it's almost like a reflexive yes. We don't even think about it. It's, "Yes, I'll do it."

   27. APAlex Partridge21:51

       Yeah, it's so inbuilt.

   28. SBSam Bramwell21:51

       Just, just come out [laughs] of my mouth. I'm like, "What? What the hell?" You know, so yeah.

   29. APAlex Partridge21:55

       Can it be the avoidance of shame as a motivator-

   30. SBSam Bramwell21:58

       Mm
7. 23:54 – 25:47

   Tiimo advert

   1. APAlex Partridge23:54

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8. 25:47 – 27:08

   How to escape emotional exhaustion

   1. APAlex Partridge25:47

      And this constant action in order to avoid rejection, can that lead to emotional exhaustion?

   2. SBSam Bramwell25:54

      Mm. Yeah, yeah, 'cause you're constantly masking, and you're managing, um, this sort of emotional labor consistently, right? I'm, I'm presenting ... If you can imagine going into work, and yes, we all do some sort of, um, self-editing, but if you're having to mask because you've got ADHD, so you're trying to stay on top of your, um, your executive functioning and-

   3. APAlex Partridge26:14

      Mm-hmm

   4. SBSam Bramwell26:14

      ... and look as if you're in control, then you're masking, you're people pleasing. You're doing a huge amount of cognitive and emotional labor just to exist in that day. So you, you can imagine when you get home, it just, that will all spill out. The fizzy bottle will just explode again.

   5. APAlex Partridge26:28

      Yes.

   6. SBSam Bramwell26:28

      Right? So that's when you get the meltdowns or the arguments or even the coping mechanisms like alcohol and drugs.

   7. APAlex Partridge26:33

      Mm.

   8. SBSam Bramwell26:34

      Mm.

   9. APAlex Partridge26:34

      You hear it time and time again, someone who, they're masking so heavily at work or just throughout their day, and they get home, and they just don't have any energy to mask or regulate in the tank.

   10. SBSam Bramwell26:45

       Yeah.

   11. APAlex Partridge26:45

       And that looks like an explosive argument-

   12. SBSam Bramwell26:47

       Yeah

   13. APAlex Partridge26:47

       ... with their partner. Um, and, and the RSD effects of, of how that can quickly escalate as well-

   14. SBSam Bramwell26:53

       Right

   15. APAlex Partridge26:54

       ... when there's RSD in the mix.

   16. SBSam Bramwell26:55

       Yeah, absolutely. So you've got, you've got, you've got this, just this, um, n- energy everywhere with nowhere to go, essentially.

   17. APAlex Partridge27:03

       Mm.

   18. SBSam Bramwell27:03

       And it does, then becomes unhealthy in, in so many different, different ways and really bad internally for us as

9. 27:08 – 29:23

   How to regulate your emotions

   1. SBSam Bramwell27:08

      well. Um-

   2. APAlex Partridge27:08

      How does one begin to start their journey of, of understanding how to regulate their emotions? If someone with ADHD h- is good at regulating their emotions, what are they doing right that someone who's listening who really struggles with RSD might not be doing?

   3. SBSam Bramwell27:24

      I think it's, um ... So I wouldn't like to call them right or wrong because I think there's, um ... I mean, obviously our ADHD is we have so many different sort of levels of it, if you like, and, and scales of it. But I do think that, um, there's a couple of things, and I know you've spoken about this before, about the deep awareness, deep self-awareness-

   4. APAlex Partridge27:41

      Mm

   5. SBSam Bramwell27:41

      ... that's important to acceptance on our journey of ADHD. So I think that the, the awareness of what is my, what is the state, my normal state of being in my nervous system, right? Mine is, for example, I would call it high sympathetic, where I'm in a, I'm a bit of a bubbly up here. Some people might be in a bit of a more withdrawn. That might be their natural c- state they like to be in. So understanding that, learning then that, um, to try to bring online the strategies like pause, you know, just using things like, okay, I'm not gonna respond in this moment. Understanding, uh, and this happens a lot, and I'm sure you may have experienced it. You know, when we're in the workplace, and you're going into a meeting, and you know you've got quite a tricky individual-

   6. APAlex Partridge28:23

      Yes, yes

   7. SBSam Bramwell28:24

      ... that you've gotta go and deal with, and, and already the s- the system's revved up, and you're like, "Ooh, this could go ... Last time he shouted at me."

   8. APAlex Partridge28:29

      Mm.

   9. SBSam Bramwell28:29

      Brain's predicted, therefore my mind's gone there already that he's gonna shout at me again, even though last time actually he had an argument with his wife. This time he's quite happy.

   10. APAlex Partridge28:37

       Right. Yes.

   11. SBSam Bramwell28:38

       You know? So-

   12. APAlex Partridge28:38

       Yeah. Still got someone in my mind. [laughs]

   13. SBSam Bramwell28:40

       Yeah. [laughs] I've got, got three or four people in mind. Um, so it, it's about understanding the, the, the sort of triggers for it. Um, and again, that comes down to that deep self-awareness. Um, you know, it might be as well, if you've got a good work ally who can sort of just sort of give you the gentle you f- kick under the table or message you-

   14. APAlex Partridge29:00

       Mm

   15. SBSam Bramwell29:00

       ... "Are you okay? Breathe," that type of thing as well before you go in. Do stuff to support your system before you go into those, into those environments. But I think, you know, again, deep self-awareness, having some strategies to support yourself, and the most important thing is self-compassion. Don't, don't beat yourself up if it's, if it's fizzed over because otherwise we just get into a, again, into a shame spiral that we don't deserve to be in.

10. 29:23 – 33:17

    ADHD in women

    1. APAlex Partridge29:23

       We're gonna talk a little bit about, um, ADHD in women specifically.

    2. SBSam Bramwell29:27

       Mm.

    3. APAlex Partridge29:27

       And in fact, 85% of the listeners and viewers of this podcast are female. What do you think are the, the key characteristics that might differentiate a neurotypical woman from an ADHD woman?

    4. SBSam Bramwell29:42

       Oh, gosh, um, there could be so many. I think from what I see and from my own experience, um, I think RSD is a big one.Sort of emotional dysregulation. Now, the irony is lots of women get accused of being too emotional in the workplace. You know, that's sort of a, um, a stereotype, if you like, uh, that often comes up. But I, I think there's, um, there's that. I do- often see women with ADHD who, um, are be- will be people pleasing perfectionists, so you see this sort of overdrive, um, and sense to, to kind of overachieve, which then ends up with kind of overwhelm and burnout, um, an awful lot. So definitely, I think those are the sort of bigger, the bigger characteristics. You know, I often see people with ADHD, some people will be brilliantly organized because they see that as a way of controlling everything in their lives, so they'll, they'll do everything to the nth degree [laughs]

    5. APAlex Partridge30:37

       Yes. Yeah. [laughs]

    6. SBSam Bramwell30:37

       And they'll have the spreadsheets and the to-do lists. That's not me. Or they'll be wildly chaotic. Um, and, and you'll see this kind of real sort of peaks and troughs of behavior-

    7. APAlex Partridge30:46

       Mm

    8. SBSam Bramwell30:46

       ... where there'll be a, you know, superstar, rockstar, getting all the bonuses one year, and then, and then not the next. So you tend to see sometimes that inconsistency, um, with them, um, more so than you would with someone who's neurotypical.

    9. APAlex Partridge30:58

       Right. Okay. And the, the perfectionism and overworking, is that, would you say, an effort to avoid RSD?

    10. SBSam Bramwell31:07

        I think it's... Yes. I think there's a, um, you know, the kind of loop we go into, which is, "I'm not good enough. I'm about to get found out."

    11. APAlex Partridge31:13

        Mm.

    12. SBSam Bramwell31:13

        So that imposter syndrome, or, "I'm gonna get fired," which often is that, the, the wake up in the day, "I'm gonna get fired today." Um, so you, they end up in a loop of scarcity mindset, and then going into, "I've gotta go and overwork and take on everything." I definitely see that. There are some things, I think, that, um, because we can have quite addictive personalities, we can enjoy working. I was a workaholic.

    13. APAlex Partridge31:35

        Mm.

    14. SBSam Bramwell31:35

        I loved working, and if I'd get a role or I got a project, then I would be, I'd be hyper-focused, kind of all in, and then you couldn't suck me out at all. So you get that, that happening, which can be a benefit to an organization if they can learn to, to manage it. But, um, yeah, I do think there's that s- sense of I was constantly worried I was about to get fired. Even, even when I won a massive award at Microsoft, and I ended up walking on stage with Flo Rida playing-

    15. APAlex Partridge32:01

        Wow. [laughs]

    16. SBSam Bramwell32:02

        ... in, in, um, in Atlanta, I was, you know, I was like, "I'm gonna get fired tomorrow."

    17. APAlex Partridge32:06

        Mm.

    18. SBSam Bramwell32:06

        "I'm gonna lose my job." So you just end up in overwork mode. Yeah.

    19. APAlex Partridge32:09

        I- i- can imposter syndrome and RSD compound each other? Can you, if you're in the workplace and, and your boss does give you praise, can you almost reject that praise?

    20. SBSam Bramwell32:20

        I think so.

    21. APAlex Partridge32:21

        Can it be like... Could, could the person think, "Wait until they find out the real version of me"?

    22. SBSam Bramwell32:27

        Yeah.

    23. APAlex Partridge32:27

        And they almost, they don't take in that praise, so they, they get s- they get sort of stuck at this psychological level of self-belief?

    24. SBSam Bramwell32:32

        Yeah. I think there's... I, I don't think... There's a couple of things I think happen with us. We, our brains are moving so fast often that we won't sit with the recognition or the v- or the, or the reward, and we're onto the next thing. Because as soon as we've achieved it, it's, "Well, we're done. We're bored. Onto the..." or, "We want the next new thing." Um, so I do think there's that element going on. I think there's a, there's a I don't believe it because I've heard all of my life that I'm a bit chaotic, not good enough, could try harder. So there's all those things that are sort of playing into it. And, um, you know, we, we would just, we won't settle, um, with it, and we won't kind of believe it, which I think then, you know, kind of, you know, it, for a company, it can be a good thing, because we will then go and work harder and harder and harder.

    25. APAlex Partridge33:13

        Sure.

    26. SBSam Bramwell33:13

        But actually, we end up in a, in a burnout situation if we're not, not entirely

11. 33:17 – 35:04

    Tips for ADHD women in the workplace

    1. SBSam Bramwell33:17

       careful.

    2. APAlex Partridge33:18

       Do you think women in general have a tougher time in the workplace?

    3. SBSam Bramwell33:21

       Yes. Yeah, I've just written a book about that, like, well, Enough is Enough, and it's absolutely the, all of the research, and I was quite shocked at, um, how all of the different levels of discrimination that kind of happen to women. Uh, so there's a, you know, there's an awful lot of research that talks a bit about the expectations of women, particularly leaders. So we t- think about leadership as, you know, you've gotta be confident, assertive, decision-maker, um, you know, all come from sort of the Army way of thinking. As soon as a woman starts to exhibit that, they are discriminated against, because they're not fitting into the stereotype of being empathic, nurturing, kind. So they get judged far more harshly, um, than men do, which is why they end up kind of being spun out of organizations quite quickly.

    4. APAlex Partridge34:07

       Those expectations that, that women face in the workplace in, in today's society, can that make it extra complicated or extra challenging for ADHD women-

    5. SBSam Bramwell34:16

       Yes

    6. APAlex Partridge34:16

       ... to, to get on in the workplace?

    7. SBSam Bramwell34:17

       Yeah, I think so. I think there's, um, you know, one of the challenges I see a lot of, with a lot of people, whether w- male and female, but women particularly, is, is being able to read the sort of political landscape. Um, you know, I call it, we have a bit of a BS detector, right?

    8. APAlex Partridge34:33

       Yes. [laughs]

    9. SBSam Bramwell34:33

       We can normally see, see through the stuff in those places, and if you see someone playing games, you're like, "I don't wanna play that game."

    10. APAlex Partridge34:39

        Sure.

    11. SBSam Bramwell34:39

        "That's not who I am." So there's an awful lot of energy that goes into the game playing, and we're not always good at reading those social cues. So the higher you get in an organization, you have to be a real good politician, and I find that, um, women with ADHD can really struggle. They can be too blunt. Um, they might be too emotional, so-called, um, or they're feeling and experiencing that, uh, and they, they struggle just to, to, to find that, that path forward.

12. 35:04 – 39:31

    Why ADHD women feel ‘not enough’

    1. APAlex Partridge35:04

       You mentioned a moment ago, many ADHD women purport to, to feel like they're not enough-

    2. SBSam Bramwell35:09

       Yeah

    3. APAlex Partridge35:09

       ... which is obviously tragic. Do you have any theories as to why so many ADHD women do feel this way?

    4. SBSam Bramwell35:16

       I think there's a cou- a couple of layers. I think women generally feel that, um, and that's because of all the societal expectations that we, um, that are put upon us, whether it's our looks, uh, you know, the, the kind of the beauty industry's always telling us that we're not, you know, we're not good enough in every single way.

    5. APAlex Partridge35:32

       Mm.

    6. SBSam Bramwell35:32

       Um, and I think for ADHD women, you know, if we've, we've l- grown up in a world where we've not really felt that we belong, and not fitted in, and not found our tribe in some way, um, we've had the feedback, "Oh, you're only gonna be average at doing something." We're just embedding all of that all of the time.

    7. APAlex Partridge35:49

       Mm.

    8. SBSam Bramwell35:49

       So, you know, and we're living in a world right now which is all about overachievement. It's all about how fast you can do something, get something done, be more productive, and if you're not living up to that standard, you start to feel that you're falling short of it, um, all of the time. And, and I think that's why a lot of us feel that we're, that we're not enough, and we're not, not, not good enough.

    9. APAlex Partridge36:08

       Mm.That horrible feeling, I mean, th- that outside of the workplace, i- what knock-on effects could that feeling of not being enough have?

    10. SBSam Bramwell36:16

        It's, it, I think it's huge, actually. It was really interesting, when I was writing a chapter, um, about building, called Building, um, around young women in, in the book, and I interviewed a load of women, and from the ages of 17 up to about 30, and, um, so many of them f- don't feel enough. And, and, and it, and it has a impact across all of their, their life, so their relationships, um, their social relationships, the things they do do or don't, right? The, the kind of risks they might take. So because I'd, you know, the, the kind of, I guess, the domino effect is if I don't feel enough here, I'm not gonna go and strive for my goals or my dreams sort of over here. Um, and it, it, you know, it just makes them judge themselves far more harshly, and then everyone's really influenced by social media.

    11. APAlex Partridge37:02

        Mm.

    12. SBSam Bramwell37:02

        So you just get all of these references and this almost reinforcement, um, all of the time of how you're feeling about yourself, and it pulls, pulls people down into a really, I think, bad psychological place.

    13. APAlex Partridge37:13

        Mm. What do you think women need to hear, would like to hear, or should be told to help them feel enough?

    14. SBSam Bramwell37:21

        I think they should be told that they are enough, and I think that we need to do more to support women, whether they're neurodivergent or not, in schools to remember their worth and find their worth quite early on and their value. Um, there's so much that's kind of pointed at them that makes them feel that they're, they're not, they're not enough because of the way they look or the things that they say. So I think, you know, just really, really help them to, to, to feel equal. That's what m- was a big difference to me. When I started to feel I'm not enough when I was, when I was growing up, um, over the last few years, it was to see myself as equal.

    15. APAlex Partridge37:58

        Mm.

    16. SBSam Bramwell37:59

        I'm sat here, rather than seeing you as a, a major podcaster celebrity, it's like, actually, we're just equal people, and to meet people where they're at and to, to have that sense of worth in, in, in who they are and to, and to value themselves.

    17. APAlex Partridge38:11

        Mm.

    18. SBSam Bramwell38:12

        Really, to value themselves.

    19. APAlex Partridge38:13

        And that journey to feeling like you are enough, how important is it to, to find your tribe or for, for women to find their sisterhood?

    20. SBSam Bramwell38:23

        Yeah. Sisterhood is really powerful. So often, women are pitted against one another, um, and I think that there's a, uh, s- psych- psychologists understand that women f- need more social connection or they're better at socially connecting. They have something called a tend and befriend strategy to do that. I think that where women have ADHD is when I feel I don't belong, or I feel socially awkward or a bit too intense. So I do think it's really important that, um, you know, we can create community for women with ADHD so they can, they can feel they can unmask and disarm, and just be themselves-

    21. APAlex Partridge38:57

        Yes

    22. SBSam Bramwell38:57

        ... in a space, and then they, you know, the... Everything will feel safe to them. Uh, and that's when you can get this authentic beauty that comes out of people, and that they want, um, they can just, you know, fill up with love, really-

    23. APAlex Partridge39:10

        Mm

    24. SBSam Bramwell39:10

        ... and, and support themselves, and to grow from that.

    25. APAlex Partridge39:13

        If someone's listening and they feel like this is brilliant, they want to adopt some of these strategies, but their inability to put boundaries in place to protect-

    26. SBSam Bramwell39:22

        Mm

    27. APAlex Partridge39:22

        ... their time, which is o- oh, so finite and precious, um, is exhausting them, so they don't actually have any energy left to, [laughs] to implement some of these ideas.

    28. SBSam Bramwell39:30

        Yeah.

13. 39:31 – 43:52

    How to set boundaries

    1. APAlex Partridge39:31

       Uh, ADHD and boundary setting, how does one start on that journey?

    2. SBSam Bramwell39:35

       [laughs]

    3. APAlex Partridge39:35

       I know it's huge and very difficult. [laughs] What would be, like, the page one of how to set boundaries-

    4. SBSam Bramwell39:40

       How to, how to set boundaries

    5. APAlex Partridge39:41

       ... if you have ADHD?

    6. SBSam Bramwell39:42

       Um, uh, that maybe is a whole book in itself.

    7. APAlex Partridge39:44

       Yes. Yeah.

    8. SBSam Bramwell39:44

       There you go. Um, I think, I think the first thing is around really understanding your values. Because what often happens, uh, is that if we don't know who we are and what we stand for, we will allow all those boundaries to be, to be kind of walked over. So understanding what's a true value compromise, and, and where you want to set that, and then I think it's about experimenting, sort of turning that up by 10%, because the, the challenge is when you put boundaries in place, and if you're a people pleaser, you will start to offend people, and you'll soon start to see the people that want to be with you and, and don't, and you have to be prep- prepared for that, th- those outcomes. Um, so I think that, you know, uh, certainly the work that I've done is really understanding who I am, and actually what are my values, as opposed to what are the values of my parents or-

    9. APAlex Partridge40:29

       Mm. Yes

    10. SBSam Bramwell40:29

        ... or my workplace. You know, one of my values is, um, I hate disrespect. I get really angry when I feel disrespected. It's sort of a visceral response. So it, I don't surround myself now with people who w- who may disrespect me, a- and I'm, and I really make that a boundary. I don't want to be putting myself in that, in that position. So I think it's a, it's starting small, building self-awareness. Do some values work. There's a really great loads of workbooks out there that can help you to define what your values are. Identify when that value is compromised, and if you get that sort of, that f- feeling coming welling up, you know that's a values compromise, and then you're like, "Okay, where are the situations or the people in my life where that tends to get trampled, and how do I then start to put a boundary in place for myself?"

    11. APAlex Partridge41:17

        Mm.

    12. SBSam Bramwell41:17

        "Which situations the, do I say no to?" Um, I think that, that becomes really, really important. But it's really hard.

    13. APAlex Partridge41:23

        Yeah.

    14. SBSam Bramwell41:23

        And so I'm not gonna say it's easy, 'cause none of us have mastered it, probably, really.

    15. APAlex Partridge41:26

        Such a good, uh, particularly for a community, right, there are experts are playing a character called normal. Brilliant. Chameleons, I think the word you used earlier.

    16. SBSam Bramwell41:34

        Chameleon, yeah.

    17. APAlex Partridge41:35

        Chame- we don't often know wh- who, who we are, or we might be at a stage where we don't, so how can we possibly know what our boundaries are?

    18. SBSam Bramwell41:41

        Yeah, yeah.

    19. APAlex Partridge41:41

        And, and listening to those sort of internal, almost knee-jerk responses-

    20. SBSam Bramwell41:46

        Yeah

    21. APAlex Partridge41:46

        ... um, is a great signal. If RSD, h- h- could that get triggered when trying to set a boundary? Because by their very nature, setting a boundary is almost, in that moment-Pushing someone away

    22. SBSam Bramwell41:58

        Yeah

    23. APAlex Partridge41:59

        And that can be quite terrifying for someone with RSD

    24. SBSam Bramwell42:01

        Yeah, it's a real little circle there, isn't there? There's a kind of people pleasing, I don't wanna offend somebody, I don't want someone to reject me, and if that's a schema that we've built up, and then I'm putting a boundary in place which is effectively doing the rejecting. Uh, I think it's, again, it's- it's trying to zoom out a little bit, because we can get very self-centered when in our RSD. It's all about us and how we're feeling. So sort of zooming out a little bit and trying to take a helicopter view of actually what is going on here, what's the bigger picture that I'm looking at, what, how is this serving me right now or in the future? Uh, and- and trying to look at it from that- that kind of perspective as well. Um, and, you know, it's, for me it's all about safety. Am I d- am I feeling safe by putting this boundary in place? Is this an important thing-

    25. APAlex Partridge42:42

        Mm

    26. SBSam Bramwell42:43

        ... for me to go and do? And- and how does, how does that support the future me? That's the, that's the kind of way I try to look at it.

    27. APAlex Partridge42:49

        Amazing advice. Thank you so much.

    28. SBSam Bramwell42:51

        You're welcome.

    29. APAlex Partridge42:52

        I'm very excited, Sam, to do the, uh, ADHD agony aunt, which has been waiting-

    30. SBSam Bramwell42:56

        It's there
14. 43:52 – 46:17

    The ADHD agony aunt

    1. SBSam Bramwell43:52

       Yeah. Yeah.

    2. APAlex Partridge43:54

       The washing machine of woes, Sam.

    3. SBSam Bramwell43:56

       I love the washing machine of woes.

    4. APAlex Partridge43:57

       Which is the ADHD-

    5. SBSam Bramwell43:58

       I feel it needs to have a voice. We need a... [laughs]

    6. APAlex Partridge44:02

       [laughs] What- what would it be, do you think?

    7. SBSam Bramwell44:03

       I don't know.

    8. APAlex Partridge44:04

       No.

    9. SBSam Bramwell44:04

       But it just, I don't know what that washing machine of woes voice would be like.

    10. APAlex Partridge44:07

        [laughs] We'll get an animator to-

    11. SBSam Bramwell44:08

        [laughs]

    12. APAlex Partridge44:08

        ... put a s- put a smiley face on it. Um, it's the washing machine of woes, which is the ADHD agony aunt section.

    13. SBSam Bramwell44:14

        Mm-hmm.

    14. APAlex Partridge44:14

        And it's called the washing machine of woes because I always leave my laundry in the machine.

    15. SBSam Bramwell44:18

        So do I.

    16. APAlex Partridge44:19

        Yes, you've got baby too.

    17. SBSam Bramwell44:20

        And then have to run it twice. [laughs]

    18. APAlex Partridge44:21

        [laughs] Yeah, so it goes-

    19. SBSam Bramwell44:22

        Chuck a bit of Nor in there, it'll be fine

    20. APAlex Partridge44:24

        ... Yeah. Brilliant. To feel less alone. [laughs]

    21. SBSam Bramwell44:26

        [laughs] Yeah.

    22. APAlex Partridge44:27

        Uh, but I have been using the Tiimo app, which is the sponsor of the show, and since I've been using them, I'm not perfect, but getting better.

    23. SBSam Bramwell44:32

        Good.

    24. APAlex Partridge44:32

        Um, this week, Sam, in the washing machine of woes, somebody has written in and asked, "I'm having a hard time at work. In fact, I always do. I never seem to fit in at work, but my exam results were good, so I know I'm bright. Do you have any tips for someone who finds it hard to submerge into the workforce, because I'm finding it hard to progress?"

    25. SBSam Bramwell44:56

        So I think my advice would be to define what fitting in means for you. What aspect of fitting in at the work- in the workforce? Is it socially? Is it finding a group of people? Um, is it that you want to be promoted? And just figure out what that direction and path needs to look like. Uh, and then create a bit of a plan around it. I mean, maybe it's getting some additional support, because it might be that your RSD is sort of, you know, glitching a little bit, and we're kind of, you know, actually it's- it's making things appear worse than they, worse than they truly are. If you're, uh, a little bit socially awkward and you struggle with small talk, it might be finding some topics that might be easy for you to talk about, um, in some kind of a way. But that would be my- my-

    26. APAlex Partridge45:41

        Mm

    27. SBSam Bramwell45:42

        ... sort of initial advice, if that makes sense.

    28. APAlex Partridge45:44

        Yeah, totally. I mean, I'd never thought of it like that, but who- who defined what fitting in is?

    29. SBSam Bramwell45:49

        Right.

    30. APAlex Partridge45:50

        We're all leaning to this sort of, this definition-
15. 46:17 – 48:58

    The ADHD Item

    1. APAlex Partridge46:17

       Penultimately, Sam, I want to reveal your ADHD item.

    2. SBSam Bramwell46:21

       The drum roll.

    3. APAlex Partridge46:21

       Which has been patiently waiting underneath that cloth. Every week I ask a guest to bring in an item that most represents ADHD, and this week, yours...

    4. SBSam Bramwell46:32

       Don't fall off the table. [laughs]

    5. APAlex Partridge46:35

       Your, your ADHD item is a, I keep getting the pronounc- pronunciation wrong. Kaleidoscope?

    6. SBSam Bramwell46:41

       Kaleidoscope.

    7. APAlex Partridge46:42

       Kaleid- I'll give it to you. I'll let you say what it is. [laughs]

    8. SBSam Bramwell46:44

       Thank you. I'm gonna sit here and play with the kaleidoscope.

    9. APAlex Partridge46:47

       Cue visual prop-

    10. SBSam Bramwell46:48

        It's amazing

    11. APAlex Partridge46:48

        ... kaleidoscope. [laughs]

    12. SBSam Bramwell46:49

        Yeah. [laughs]

    13. APAlex Partridge46:51

        Cue visual aid.

    14. SBSam Bramwell46:52

        Cue visual aid. There you go. Look, yeah. Do you want to know why?

    15. APAlex Partridge46:55

        Kal- well, I mean, can I guess?

    16. SBSam Bramwell46:58

        Yeah.

    17. APAlex Partridge46:59

        Um, is it because it is very scatty and disordered, but also magical?

    18. SBSam Bramwell47:07

        Kind of, yeah.

    19. APAlex Partridge47:08

        Okay.

    20. SBSam Bramwell47:09

        Yeah, absolutely. It just, I, um, I used to spend hours watching these when I was younger, like playing with them, because there was infinite possibilities, and I think that's represents who we are. There's always infinite possibilities, and that's a good thing, and sometimes can be a bit of a challenging thing as well. There's beauty in that chaos.

    21. APAlex Partridge47:26

        Mm.

    22. SBSam Bramwell47:26

        And it can create amazing, amazing ideas and things, and I just, I just think we're all kinds of colors, and I, and I, and I like that for us. So that's why.

    23. APAlex Partridge47:35

        I mean, it's amazing. Amazing. And, uh, it will sit proudly on the shelf behind us for-

    24. SBSam Bramwell47:41

        Yeah

    25. APAlex Partridge47:41

        ... as- as a constant reminder that there is beauty-

    26. SBSam Bramwell47:43

        We are a kaleidoscope-

    27. APAlex Partridge47:44

        ... in the chaos

    28. SBSam Bramwell47:44

        ... and we're beautiful. Yeah.

    29. APAlex Partridge47:45

        We are kaleidoscopes.

    30. SBSam Bramwell47:46

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 48:58