5 Skills To Succeed in ANY Career - Helen Tupper (Squiggly Careers)

Helen Tupper 0:00 In work and outside of work, there is a really big risk that we try to make work the sole source of our fulfillment. So I think what we want to do is find balanced sources of fulfillment. Yes, a lot of it's gonna come from work because you spend a lot of time from work, but it is why we want to think about, "Well, what am I doing outside of work as well? How else am I finding that fulfillment?"

Ali Abdaal 0:19 Helen Tupper-

Speaker 0:20 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 0:20 ... is one of the co-authors of this excellent book, The Squiggly Career: Ditch the Ladder, Discover Opportunity, Design Your Career. And it's basically an episode that is all about how to figure out what to do with your working life, i.e. your career, and how to navigate what she calls squiggly careers, which is sort of the windy type of career that most of us are gonna have these days.

Helen Tupper 0:40 It's about not being limited by a ladder, not thinking that the only way is up, and that the only destination in terms of success is becoming more senior. Once we get rid of those constraints, it's actually quite liberating for people.

Ali Abdaal 0:52 I feel like I learned so much about my own values and my own strengths and what I value from a career. And so we start off the conversation kind of discussing this idea of squiggly careers and where they've come from, and then we spend the rest of the episode discussing five key skills that you can build today to help navigate a squiggly career. So we start by talking about values finding, and that's really good. We talk about strengths. We talk about confidence, networking in an effective way, and exploring future possibility.

Helen Tupper 1:16 A lot of people are motivated by getting more money, but it's almost like, well, what's the meaning behind the more money? Is it giving you status? Is it giving you significance? When you work out the meaning behind the money, you can actually unhook some of your sort of dependency on the pay.

Ali Abdaal 1:31 Hey, friends. So before we get into the episode, I've got some very exciting news that I'm finally able to share with you, and that is that I have written a book. Now, if you've been following the podcast for a while, you'll probably know from some of my conversations with authors in particular that it's been quite the journey over the last three years. This has been the single hardest thing that I've ever done in my life. But after three years, it's finally here, and I'm delighted to announce that my book, Feel-Good Productivity, is now available for pre-order. It's gonna be published later this year, and you can find a link down in the video description, or if you head over to feelgoodproductivity.com, all one word, uh, you can check out the website, and the website is absolutely sick. Now, the central idea for the book came from a realization that I had while I was working as a doctor a few years ago and trying to juggle everything with my YouTube channel and my business, and I kind of realized that the secret to productivity isn't discipline. It's, in fact, joy. And sure, hard work and grit and willpower and determination and all of those things are good in small doses. But for most of us, they tend not to be the sustainable route to consistent productivity. But I realized through a lot of experimentation and then diving into a bunch of research that actually the secret to productivity that feels enjoyable and meaningful and sustainable is to find a way to make your work feel good, to find a way to make it feel energizing and enjoyable. And if you do that, you'll be more productive in your work, but you'll also have way more energy to give to the other things in your life that matter to you. And this isn't just my own personal experience, but it's an idea that's been validated by a bunch of studies in the fields of psychology and neuroscience as well. And so the writing process of the book over the last three years has involved reading hundreds of research papers, interviewing academics and experts in the fields of, like, psychology and procrastination and motivation, and spending years trying to condense it into a format and cut out all the fluff and trying to do it in a way that's, like, engaging and actionable at the same time. So that's what the book is about. It is a science-backed guide on how to do more of what matters to you in a way that feels enjoyable and meaningful and sustainable. And if you enjoy this podcast, then I can basically guarantee that you will love the stuff that's in the book. Uh, there are nine chapters. Each chapter has six different experiments in it that you can try out in your own life. And so there are 54 different experiments, strategies that you can apply to your life starting from as soon as you read the book. And the idea is that you apply these, and you see if they work for you. And over time, you'll build your own feel-good productivity system. Now, if you do decide to pre-order the book, then that would be awesome because firstly, it helps me out, and secondly, I think the ideas in this book can be genuinely life-changing. And if you pre-order the book, it will be delivered straight to you on release date later this year, uh, to your Kindle or your Audible account, and I'm narrating the audiobook, by the way, uh, or to the hardback, hardback version of the book if you prefer to read physical copies of books. And if you do pre-order, then please do be sure to save your receipts because I'm gonna be announcing a bunch of really exciting pre-order bonuses exclusively and only for people who pre-order the book. And so final thing before we get into the episode is just wanna say a massive thank you to you guys. By watching the videos, by subscribing on social media, by listening to the podcast, you have made this book possible. Um, without you guys supporting the channel and everything that I do, there's no way Penguin would've come knocking and been like, "Hey, do you wanna write a book?" And so I'm like, this has been, like, such a rewarding experience, and I could not have g- come to this point without your support. So I just wanted to say massive thank you from the bottom of my heart for that. So that's it from me. Do check out the book if you like at feelgoodproductivity.com. It'll be linked down below in the podcast description and the show notes as well. But now let's get into the podcast episode itself.

Ali Abdaal 4:33 Helen, welcome to the podcast.

Helen Tupper 4:34 Thank you for having me.

Ali Abdaal 4:35 Um, so we're gonna be talking about the squiggly career and the idea of, like, how to, how to build a career that you actually love-

Helen Tupper 4:43 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 4:43 ... and, like, the twisty, turny, squiggly path along the way. Um, before we dive into that, I'd just love to hear from people who might not be familiar with who you are. Can you give us a quick, like, summary of how you, how we ended up here?

Helen Tupper 4:52 Oh, gosh, the quick, the quick-

Ali Abdaal 4:53 [laughs]

Helen Tupper 4:53 ... uh, squiggly path. Uh, so I used to work for lots of large organizations, uh, mainly in marketing. And about 10 years ago, so 2013, uh, me and a friend that had gone to university together were reflecting a little bit on our careers. Uh, they'd started quite ladder-like, like so ladder-like that I did three graduate schemes after the other because I just loved that, like, ready-made incentive of progression that they come with. Um, but then we started to realize together that our careers had been going in lots of different directions, and, uh, we were really enjoying what we were doing and developing a lot. Um, but we realized that other people were still stuck on this ladder.

Ali Abdaal 5:27 Mm.

Helen Tupper 5:27 Like, they hadn't been able to develop in different directions. And we decided we just wanted to help people, uh, take what we had learned, what was helping us, and support other people to succeed in careers that were a bit more individual. Um, and then the more we did that, it started with evening sessions. So while we were doing our five-day-a-week job, uh, we would go train people in the evening, and that stuff just started to stick, and people started to share it. And this business sort of grew that became a book, and it became a podcast, and it became a big training company. And sort of 10 years on from that moment, that's what we do today. We have a team, um, helping people scale squiggly, um, all over the world and, uh, supporting them with their skills.

Ali Abdaal 6:04 Wow, that was a great pitch. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 6:06 Um, what, what is a squiggly career?

Helen Tupper 6:08 Oh, what is a squiggly career? It is a career where people can develop in different directions. So you don't have to be defined by the last job that you did, and you have freedom and flexibility to develop in a way that's right for you. That can be in the same company or the same industry. Sometimes people think squiggly is about, you know, making dramatically different changes to their career, um, things like you've done, for example. You've had a quite extreme squiggly career, but you can still squiggle and stay in a company. It's about not being limited by a ladder, not thinking that the only way is up, and that the only destination in terms of success is becoming more senior. Once we get rid of those constraints, it's actually quite liberating for people because I can go sideways 'cause I don't have to worry that that's a bad move, or I could go back to something I did before and it's not a failure for my future. And people just become much more open and start looking inward, what do I actually want from work, rather than outward, what does good look like on the surface? And surface level stuff doesn't often make people that happy. It's the inward stuff that's better.

Ali Abdaal 7:09 Hmm. Wh- what, what is a career these days? Like, how do we understand that word?

Helen Tupper 7:15 Yeah. What is a career? I think a career is a collection of jobs we do throughout our time at work. That's all a career is to me. It's the, it's the journey of the jobs. Um, what we are trying to say is if you have a squiggly career, that journey of the jobs, um, gives you more choice and it gives you more freedom, whereas if you have a ladder-like career, a, a journey of jobs, that journey's only going in one direction and you are going to have a limited amount of control about what that looks like. Because when the journey looks like a ladder, what a lot of people do is they have to wait for promotions 'cause that's-

Ali Abdaal 7:52 Hmm

Helen Tupper 7:52 ... that's how you progress on a ladder, whereas when the journey looks squiggly, you are creating more possibility for your future rather than sort of waiting for somebody else to gift you that promotion.

Ali Abdaal 8:01 Hmm. I- is the idea of squiggly confined to... Like, like, for example, I'm thinking in medicine. It's fairly ladder-like.

Helen Tupper 8:08 Hmm.

Ali Abdaal 8:09 But then I know a lot of people who have squiggly, squ- squiggly careers within medicine as well. Um, do you see examples of people within a more traditionally hierarchical field ending up creating a squiggly career for themselves?

Helen Tupper 8:18 Yeah, absolutely. So gosh, we work with lawyers. We work with... Actually, we do quite a lot of work with, um, media companies, uh, who, uh, are, I would say, very, um, siloed sometimes in the skills. Like, they kind of go, "Well, I'm, I'm an editor, therefore I can't go into that function." So we, we deal with lots of different organizations and industries that are traditionally more ladder-like. Um, and actually because of their expertise, like kind of... There's a, an international organization we work with with ingredient specialists. Like, they have PhDs in all kinds of things that I don't understand. They don't necessarily want to go and become a teacher, you know? They've actually quite happy with their PhD expertise, but the point of squiggly is it goes beyond a job title. So we're trying to think about your talent. So okay, yes, you've got your PhD, and yes, you're some molecular scientist in this area [laughs] or whatever it is, but what is your talent? Like, specifically, what do you want to be known for? What gives you the most energy at work, and how can we find ways for you to stretch that strength? So you can still do the job that you're currently doing, but if you look at your career in a squiggly way, what you're thinking is, "Well, if that's what gives me energy, that's what I want to be known for, then how can I build that beyond the job that I'm in today? How could I build relationships beyond the ones I have today?" Because the more we get beyond the thing we're in today, the more opportunities we create for our future. But in that ladder-like way of thinking, we don't really go beyond where we are today-

Ali Abdaal 9:37 Yeah

Helen Tupper 9:37 ... because we're just, just doing the job and waiting often for someone else to give us those things.

Ali Abdaal 9:42 So are we talking,

Ali Abdaal 9:43 like, side hustles and stuff, or, like, what's the... How, how does one go about exploring these-

Helen Tupper 9:47 Oh

Ali Abdaal 9:47 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 9:47 So, so let's, let's take strengths, for example, just for a moment. So if I'm, if I'm thinking, okay, so I, I want to be known by my talents and not my titles. Um, it's a much kind of broader way of think- people thinking about their development. And so, um, I don't know, what is one of the talents you want to be known for?

Ali Abdaal 10:02 Um, I don't know. I say songwriting.

Helen Tupper 10:04 Okay.

Ali Abdaal 10:04 [laughs]

Helen Tupper 10:05 Songwriting.

Ali Abdaal 10:05 Yeah. [laughs]

Helen Tupper 10:05 Oh, I love that. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 10:06 Potentially.

Helen Tupper 10:06 That's great.

Ali Abdaal 10:07 It's, it's not a talent yet-

Helen Tupper 10:07 Okay

Ali Abdaal 10:07 ... but I would like it to be, become one.

Helen Tupper 10:09 Okay. Brilliant. So we want to try and stretch that strength as much as possible. The more people and places you use that strength in, the better, the better it's gonna become.

Ali Abdaal 10:16 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 10:17 So we might start thinking about in your day job today-

Ali Abdaal 10:19 Yeah

Helen Tupper 10:19 ... how can you do more songwriting? Maybe you could write the intro, uh, the intro music for your podcast. That would be a sort of a very relevant way of stretching-

Ali Abdaal 10:28 Hmm

Helen Tupper 10:28 ... that strength. Then we might think a little bit more broadly. Um, how could you help some other people by stretching that strength? So could you volunteer? Are there, I don't know, music charities, organizations that you could contribute to? Could you get involved in schools? So this is where you get into the role of side hustles or volunteering, and you stretch your strengths. I, I really like people to stretch their strengths within their organizations as far as possible because the more people within your organization that can see your strengths, the more they will spot opportunities for you.

Ali Abdaal 10:58 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 10:58 But we want, we want it in and outside of the organization, different people, different places. Because the way of thinking about it, I think, is, is frequency builds competency. More you use it, better you're gonna get. And openness leads to opportunity. So the more people that see it, the more people that are gonna spot for you. And if we can just keep that stretch going, it starts to build your brand. You become known for that talent, and the, the good stuff comes to you.

Ali Abdaal 11:22 Hmm. Love it. Okay. I have so many more questions-

Helen Tupper 11:25 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 11:25 ... about the strength stuff. Uh, but, but b- before we go there, um,

Ali Abdaal 11:29 where does this idea of, like, ladder career progression come from?

Helen Tupper 11:33 Yeah. It's so, it's over 100 years old as a, as a concept. Um, probably started in the financial services sector. That's the origins of the career ladder, financial service sector. Mainly for managers, apparently early 1900s there were, uh, I think, a big growth in clerical workers, uh, and managers were trying to create some conformity over careers so they could manage and motivate a rapidly growing workforce. That was kinda the origins of the ladder. Um, I'm not sure conformity and control are the ingredients for, like, happy careers, but you know, that ladder stuck around for a very long time. But you know, it l- it leads to lots of problems now. So That thing that was created 100 years ago for one context, mainly for managers, um, has sort of been extrapolated into lots of different environments and situations. And the world that we're working in now is very, very different. So we are not working in this predictable world. Like, most people are gonna do multiple roles at multiple companies and have multiple careers.

Ali Abdaal 12:29 Mm.

Helen Tupper 12:29 Like, it's, it's, it's a very much change. And people also identify with work a lot more. It's not so much kind of clocking in and clocking out. It's much a bigger part of our identity, which means we ask questions like, "Well, purpose," I mean, purpose. It- it's just the concept of having work with purpose is quite a new thing for people, making a difference, meaning at work. They are important things for us to consider, but they lead to very different responses from different people. So with this ladder-like notion, what we're doing is forcing everyone to fall into one definition of success and meaning, you know, become more senior-

Ali Abdaal 13:05 Yeah

Helen Tupper 13:05 ... get to the top. Um, and it leads to lots of people actually competing with each other [laughs] in, in, in, in, in careers for roles they might not actually want. It leads to quite a lot of comparison. So I might look at you as someone who is successful and think, "Well, I need to be like you, and if I'm not doing what you're doing, then I'm not successful," rather than actually thinking, "What does success mean to me?" And, um, lots of people lose confidence. It's this thing that's been around for such a long time. People think, "Well, if my career doesn't look like that, then I'm obviously not doing it right."

Ali Abdaal 13:33 Mm.

Helen Tupper 13:33 You get this, like, the right career, the wrong choice, very binary. Um, and it's just not that. It's just not that binary. Like, we all make different moves. We all learn from different things, and we should be using that to inform what we do next.

Ali Abdaal 13:45 Mm.

Helen Tupper 13:45 It's not good and bad moves. That, that limits people making choices when they think every move has to ... It's almost, it's almost like this sort of progression perfectionism, which is, is holding people back from experimenting and exploring and just becoming a bit more self-aware.

Ali Abdaal 14:00 Where does this idea come from that we're like, every move we make, we have to go upwards in this sort of metaphorical-

Helen Tupper 14:05 Well, I think-

Ali Abdaal 14:06 ... world?

Helen Tupper 14:06 I think, I think, I mean, I think it's been baked in by the ladder.

Ali Abdaal 14:09 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 14:09 I think it was introduced, and then we've sort of reinforced companies, so we've created organizational structures upon this concept. Like, I've, I've seen it, experienced it, and actually I have been motivated by it because it is, it's a ready-made achievement for you, you know?

Ali Abdaal 14:24 Mm.

Helen Tupper 14:24 It, the promise is you show up, you work hard, and you will go up that ladder, and when that is true, I think it's quite motivating for people that, you know, have a value of achievement. So for me, to some extent, that becomes quite motivating, but then you get to a point where that level of promotion isn't possible anymore because they don't come around that frequently, or the organization's going through a period of restructuring, and suddenly you're left going, "Oh, well am I not, am I not successful now? Um, is, am I doing something wrong?" And it's not that you're doing something wrong, and it's not that you're not successful, and it's not that you can't keep developing. It's just that very limited way of looking at career success and how to develop yourself starts to hold you back. And, and that's the thing. We are not anti-ambition, and we're not anti-people becoming more senior. But what I'm saying is if you become so blinkered about your career that the only way you can progress is by getting promoted, and the only thing that is success is becoming more senior, then at some point you are gonna become disillusioned about your development. And I, I don't want that for people because I think work is such an important part of people's life-

Ali Abdaal 15:35 Mm

Helen Tupper 15:35 ... that if we are selling this story that success is becoming more senior for everybody, we create a situation where I think a lot of people are unhappy at work.

Ali Abdaal 15:44 Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. Um, there's a friend of mine, uh, Paul Millerd, who wrote a book called The Pathless Path-

Helen Tupper 15:50 Mm

Ali Abdaal 15:50 ... which is kind of like, you know, he had a sort of corporate, big four corporate, sort of a management consulting, um, career, and after about 10 years of that decided to completely quit his job and now just like, you know, you know, be- for internet freelancing and all this kind of stuff. And in the book, he talks a lot about how he had to deal with all of the societal and corporate pressures around like, oh, like, I can no longer go out for drinks with the coworkers because they're buying $100 cocktails, and I can't afford that anymore, and all, all of the things, things around that. But one of the things he talks about, um, he calls it the accidental meaning hypothesis.

Helen Tupper 16:24 Okay.

Ali Abdaal 16:25 Uh, which is basically like

Ali Abdaal 16:26 in the 1950s or thereabouts, because of these career ladders, um, it was the case that you worked hard at a job, you got promoted, you got the company car, you lived in the same place, you probably lived in the suburbs, you probably went to church, you probably had a house with a white picket fence, you probably had like three point x kids, and you were probably married, and you were involved in the local community. And as a result of the way societies were structured, at least in the West, in that context, you were actually liv- leading a pretty meaningful and fulfilled life because you were progressing in your work by default because of seniority and, uh, time, and you had meaning outside of your work by community and structure and, like, hanging out with the friends and family and things. Whereas increasingly now it's like the career thing no longer works because very few jobs a- have that linear progression. But also we're all increasingly living in apartments in big cities. We're increasingly moving around. The world's becoming smaller, and so we have less of that community side going on for us as well, which somewhat necessitates us putting a lot of pressure on our jobs to fulfill the meaning and purpose questions of life.

Helen Tupper 17:27 Yeah, and I think that 1950s scenario as well-

Ali Abdaal 17:29 Yeah

Helen Tupper 17:30 ... uh, I think men's success in that situation was very enabled by the women painting the picket fence at home.

Ali Abdaal 17:35 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 17:35 And so as we [laughs] have no longer have that kind of narrative, I think suddenly you can't necessarily have that, that kind of system of family life. It's just different, and I ultimately think it's better because now we have more equal opportunities, um, in the workplace. However, it doesn't make it easy, right? It doesn't make it easy to sort of balance all those things together. Um, but yeah, I can see. I will, I will have a look at his work.

Ali Abdaal 17:54 [laughs]

Helen Tupper 17:54 Sounds very interesting.

Ali Abdaal 17:55 Um, what do you think... Uh, so the, the people that you speak to during, in like throu- through the course of your work, do you have a sense of like what proportion of people are totally happy with their career path versus...

Ali Abdaal 18:08 Like inc- increasingly, I find a lot of my friends saying, "I don't really know what I'm doing with my career."

Helen Tupper 18:11 [laughs] Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 18:12 And I feel like everyone kind of feels that, but everyone fe- feels like they're the only person who feels that.

Helen Tupper 18:16 Yeah. Um, it's re- it's really interesting. I would say the majority of people, um, are thinking about their development and whether they're doing the right thing, and that doesn't mean they're going to do something different. That doesn't mean that they're going, "And I want to leave my company, and I want to, you know, retrain to do something else." It just means that they are reflecting on work and life, and does it feel right for them right now? I hear, I hear a lot of that, and I think people just need to make sense, they ma- need to make sense of what's going on. And if you can help them to make sense, okay, well, well, let's look at what's making you happy at work, your values, and let's look at what you want to be known for, um, and let's look at who's helping you grow so you don't feel like you're doing this on your own. Like, lots of things that we talk about. Then sometimes you can go through that process, and they become self m- aware, and they're like, "Actually, this, this is the right thing for me right now, but I'm more confident in what I'm doing and why I'm doing." It's the unknown and the uncertainty that people really struggle with. And so I think a lot of, a lot of what we're trying to do is to, to create clarity and give people confidence about the direction of their development, and that might be, "Actually, I'm in a good place," or that might be, "I want to do something different." But so many people don't have the support. That was why we started the business because what we realized was in lots of organizations, you get to a level of seniority that unlocks career support. So you're like, "Congratulations on becoming a director. Here's your executive coach"

Ali Abdaal 19:43 Mm.

Helen Tupper 19:43 And then you go through this epiphany [laughs] about y- about your, your life and your career, and you make decisions. And you're like, well, everybody's going through that uncertainty, your friends, my friends, the people ... Everyone's going through those, that, those thought processes, so why are we only helping senior people later in their career to make sense of it? Why don't we take the questions and the tools and the frameworks and just give them to everybody?

Ali Abdaal 20:06 Mm.

Helen Tupper 20:06 Like, democratize development. Don't limit it by level, and then surely everyone can start to succeed in their careers at whatever success means for them. So yeah, those, that, that conversation from the friend and the colleague and the mentor saying the same thing, like, "Oh, I don't really know what I want to do either," that was the starting point for Squiggly. It was, it was that that we thought, well, let's just try and help people because we had those questions, and we found some things that have helped us, so let's just try and share that with as many people as possible.

Ali Abdaal 20:33 Nice. Sick. Okay. Um, I wanna talk about the five skills to navigate the squiggly career.

Helen Tupper 20:38 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 20:38 Um, but before you go there, um, what, how ... What's your sense of how, how do people end up in jobs that they thought they would enjoy but that they end up actually not enjoying?

Helen Tupper 20:48 [laughs] Uh, I think we ... A combination of a lack of self-awareness and a lot of shiny objects, okay? [laughs] Let me ... I think the, the lack of self-awareness is we, we don't necessarily reflect for very long, unless you read the book, on things that h- make you happy, the things that motivate and drive you. So we, um, make quick choices. We sort of bounce around from one job to the next, hoping that we will find out what makes us happy once we've got there. Uh, and I think if we could spend a little bit more time reflecting on what makes us happy before we get there, then we can make better decisions about our development. So I think self-awareness is a, is a, is a big thing. We just need to support people with a little bit of reflection before they move into new roles.

Ali Abdaal 21:31 Mm.

Helen Tupper 21:31 Um, I think shiny objects is also another thing, and I have definitely succumbed to these. So this is where, it's surface level stuff, so it's, um, grades, like when you're in, uh, large organizations, it's the, "Oh, I'm at a, a B level, and I could get to the C level," um, and we kinda get very attached to grades. It's shiny objects, like literal ones, like cars. Like, I once took a job because of the car it came with.

Ali Abdaal 21:54 Oh.

Helen Tupper 21:54 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 21:55 Nice.

Helen Tupper 21:55 Definitely. And I remember sitting in my shiny car thinking, "Hmm, I'm not sure this job's really making me happy, but I'll just put the radio on in my car." So, you know, there's lots of shiny objects. I think salaries to s- to some extent can be a shiny object. Like, everyone has a, a base level of pay that they need for their life, and then I think there's money beyond that that can become discretionary and shiny and impressive. It's sort of these status symbols of, um, ladder-like progression. And when we haven't really reflected on what we want or we don't feel confident about the choices we're making, defaulting to things that seem shiny on the surface, um, can be quite persuasive, as can other people's opinions and expectations.

Ali Abdaal 22:35 Ooh.

Helen Tupper 22:35 So if I am unsure about what to do, and you're my manager or you're someone in my family or my partner, and you're very sh- you know, clear about your opinion, I might default to what you think I should do with my development. And so you have this situation where you've got-

Ali Abdaal 22:50 Mm

Helen Tupper 22:50 ... sort of lack of self-awareness, lots of shiny objects, and perhaps other people's opinions and expectations, and I think that is creating unclear career decision-making where people move into a position and then ultimately find out that it's not the right thing for them. Um, and we just have to press pause on that stuff and help people to get there themselves, to sort of, you know, to look inward on those things and use that to make the decisions for their development.

Ali Abdaal 23:15 Damn, love it. Um, what are the, what are the ways in which we can do that reflection, reflection thing? Like, someone watching or listening to this now, what sort of questions would you be asking or should or could they be asking themselves to figure out what is the career that'll actually help me become happier?

Helen Tupper 23:30 Well, I think it depends where you want to start, really. That's why we, we ... When we talk through the five skills-

Ali Abdaal 23:34 Yeah

Helen Tupper 23:35 ... they are all equally important in getting to that, like, where do I want to go and how do I want to grow and how am I gonna get there?

Ali Abdaal 23:40 Mm.

Helen Tupper 23:40 They are all equally important, but I would say they're not all equally important to all the people all the time. So for example, if I'm, let's say I'm in a role that I'm really not enjoying at the moment, and I have been in this position, and you're not really sure why. You're like, "It's a good job. I'm paid a, a good salary. I sh- like, I should be happy. I don't know-

Ali Abdaal 24:01 Yeah

Helen Tupper 24:01 ... what I wanna do, and I don't know why I'm not happy." For that person, I would say work on your values first There is no point you moving to another position until you've reflected on, like, what motivates and drives you. And, you know, there's a whole series of exercises that can help people there. If you've got somebody else who's saying, "I just wanna do something different. Like, I do like my job, but I'm like, 'Ah, I feel like I... My career's been a bit constrained. I wanna try something out.'" That person who's quite excited, you know, they're not lost, they're quite excited about the potential of their progression-

Ali Abdaal 24:32 Mm

Helen Tupper 24:32 ... I would say, "Let's go explore some career possibilities. Before you start doing just loads of random things, 'cause you've got all this energy and enthusiasm [laughs] , why don't we proactively explore some possibilities, have some curious career conversations, collect some data for your development, and then use that to make a decision?" So for that person, I'd be saying, "Well, let's look at future, let's look at future possibilities an- and sort of start you working on that skill." So I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all question for this. I don't think there's, like, a, "And the Squiggly Career question everyone should ask themself." I don't think there is that. I think there is, "Where are you right now, and what's the skill that's gonna be most relevant for you?" And helping people to spot the skill and invest in that, otherwise it's really overwhelming, like trying to-

Ali Abdaal 25:14 Yeah

Helen Tupper 25:14 ... do all

Helen Tupper 25:15 this stuff at once. Like, I don't wanna overwhelm people with career development. I want to give them the specific stuff that could support them to succeed, and I think that is a very individual way of managing it.

Ali Abdaal 25:24 Nice. Okay. So I wonder if we start with the values thing.

Helen Tupper 25:26 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 25:26 So, um, you know, we've got a question from Henry from our Telegram Community, who says, um, "Let's say you're in a corporate job and you feel numb from the daily grind."

Helen Tupper 25:35 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 25:35 "You're relatively good at the job, but you're looking to find something that excites you. How do you go about this discovery process?" And he's also asking, "How do you balance the monetary value of the corporate job with kind of exploring other, other options?"

Helen Tupper 25:46 That's a numb from the corporate grind. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 25:48 Yeah. It's like, wow.

Helen Tupper 25:49 A motivating statement to start the day with.

Ali Abdaal 25:51 [laughs]

Helen Tupper 25:52 Um, so first of all, we just need to take a bit of time to think about, "Okay, well, what motivates and drives me?" I think one of the easiest ways of doing this is to, um, we kinda call it the career graph exercise, but you, you're gonna reflect on your career so far. And some people have had quite a lot of e- experience. Some people might have a year if you've come off, you know, out of university you might not have loads of time. That's fine. Um, I want you to start wherever you think your career started to where you are today, and just sort of unravel the squiggle into a series of highs and lows. Um, so I'd be talking about my career started on the Boots Graduate Scheme in Nottingham, and, and just describe it, and I would have... I would say, "Okay, that was actually a high for me." And you might go, "Well, why was it a high?" And, "'Cause I was with lots of keen people, and we're doing lots of new things, and I got a lot of variety 'cause I changed every six months," et cetera, et cetera. "And then I moved into something else, got my shiny car. But I wasn't very happy." "Well, why weren't you very happy?" And you kind of unravel the career into a series of highs and lows and really start to probe the points in time that were particularly high and particularly low.

Ali Abdaal 26:52 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 26:52 And the, the questions, it's sort of like, why was it a high? What can you learn from the low? Um, specifically, I would, I would get people thinking, well, who are you working with? And not, not someone's name [laughs] necessarily. It, it was Jane. It, it's more the characteristics. Were they entrepreneurial? Were they curious? Like, what, what are some of the words that come out, or, um, what were you working on, like a day in your life when I was on the Boots Graduate Scheme, what was that like? Describe the detail. What we're doing when we're analyzing these points in time is we're collecting clues because your values are present when you're really happy. So I'm trying to collect those clues. Like, what was there? When I was loving that job, what was present? And then what was missing when you weren't? Like, when I think about some of my career lows, a lot of it is because I was working in very process-driven organization, um, with very sort of siloed thinking kind of people-

Ali Abdaal 27:41 Mm

Helen Tupper 27:41 ... who were quite, um, aggressive in their approach. [laughs] Like, when I think about some of the places I've worked, and my values are freedom, growth, ene- energy, and achievement, and so what I can see was missing in those moments was I didn't have the freedom 'cause it was so process-driven, and the energy that I need wasn't there because people were so, um, [laughs] aggressive in their approach. And so those roles didn't make me happy 'cause I couldn't get that from my work. So for Henry, I would say draw your career graph, like map out those moments, and probe the points in time that stand out, the goods, the goods and the bad. That will get you to a set of clues, and you wanna spot the consistencies. What three or four words or themes really, really stand out? Um, and that's a starting place for your values. There's more you can do, but it's a pretty good starting place as to what makes you, you. Then what we want to do is try and get those fulfilled as much as possible in work and outside of work.

Ali Abdaal 28:32 Mm.

Helen Tupper 28:32 I think there is a really big risk that we try to make work the sole source of our fulfillment, and that's where you start to risk enmeshment, which is where I go, well, I now know that freedom, growth, energy, and achievement are what makes me, me, so I'm gonna try and, you know, get as much as I can f- of that from my work. I'm gonna try and get all of it from my work. And then what happens when me and my manager aren't getting on or, you know, there's a, a, I've hit a road bump for my business is my achievement value goes from green to red straight away, and my entire [laughs] happiness is affected as a result. So I think what we want to do is find balance sources of fulfillment. Yes, a lot of it's gonna come from work because you spend a lot of time from work, but it is why we want to think about, well, what am I doing outside of work as well? How else am I finding that fulfillment? It means you are less likely to be affected by the changes at work. Um, and also for Henry as well, talking about the money, so Henry now knows his values. He now knows that maybe find some of that stuff outside of work as well as inside of work. Um, the money thing, balancing the, the, the money that you might get from a role with the meaning that you might want from your work, um, I would suggest that you need to think about sort of the meaning behind the money. A lot of people are motivated by getting more money, but it's almost like, well, what's the meaning behind the more money? Is it giving you status? Is it giving you significance? Is it giving you security? Like, why, why, why do you want more money? Is it freedom? Like, for me, a lot of the time for me, yes, I want more money, but not, not so it's in the bank. That's not what it is. It's because I can do new things. When you work out the meaning behind the money, you can actually unhook some of your sort of dependency on the pay. Like, I, I... Obviously, pay is important because there are certain things we need to pay for in our life, but it's that discretionary stuff. If you are stuck on a ladder becoming more senior- Because you want to get paid more, I think that can become quite dangerous to people's happiness, 'cause it's not always the pay that's making them happy, it's the meaning behind the money. So find out the meaning behind the money, and then just, just see if there's other ways that you can find that fulfillment. Or next time there's a pay, pay freeze, you're gonna feel really, really unhappy, and it, it's likely that money means more than just what you're, what's going into your bank.

Ali Abdaal 30:41 This episode is very kindly brought to you by Huel. I've been a paying customer of Huel since my fifth year of medical school, since 2017. Actually, since before I started my YouTube channel. And I first started using Huel because my life was pretty hectic. I was juggling lots of different things, like medical school and exams, and trying to sort out publication points for my future, like, doctor job applications. And alongside, I was running a business, I was building an app, and I was trying to maintain some semblance of a social life. And so Huel actually came in really handy for that. If you haven't heard of it, it's basically a meal in a shake that contains all of the ingredients that are essential to thrive. It's got a perfect balance of protein and carbs and fats and vitamins and minerals. And these days, the Huel Black Edition is my absolute favorite. It comes in nine flavors. Salted caramel is my personal favorite. 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Helen Tupper 34:19 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 34:19 Don't know if you've come across it.

Helen Tupper 34:20 I haven't.

Ali Abdaal 34:20 Oh, it's so good. Uh, it's just, like, that just completely changed my approach to money when I read it a few, a few years ago. Um, her argument in the book, I, I mean, it was, it was written a couple of decades ago. But, but essentially the argument in the book is that fundamentally, the only reason we do a job is to make money. And she's like, "I know people are gonna say fulfillment and meaning and contribution and, like, learning and all that shit," but she's like, "But you can get all those things outside of a job."

Helen Tupper 34:45 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 34:45 You can get all of those things by volunteering. If you had 100 million in the bank, you probably would m- you might make slightly different, you know, different decisions with how you spend, how you spend your time. And therefore, money is the thing. So let's call a spade a spade. A job is fundamentally about money. And now when you recognize that, it's like, cool, how much of my life, uh, my life force, my life energy am I trading for that money? Um, and yeah, to your point around, like, the freedom, the growth, all-

Helen Tupper 35:12 Mm

Ali Abdaal 35:12 ... all of those things can actually be found outside of the day job, potentially.

Helen Tupper 35:17 Yeah, and I think, I just remember p- a personal pivotal point for me was when, um, so we were building our business in parallel with our careers for-

Ali Abdaal 35:24 Yeah

Helen Tupper 35:24 ... many years. So I was at Microsoft, um, I was a market director at Microsoft in the UK, um, and you know, at this point I had two children and I had my side project and had the podcast and I had the book, and all that was kind of going on. And I thought I, I needed to make a decision. I'd managed all this together for quite a while, and I was just becoming... I needed to make a choice. It was just becoming a bit too much. I think the trade-off that I was making in terms of time I was spending with my family and the quality of the work I wanted to do was, I could start to see the impact of spreading myself so thin. But in order to make the move to do Amazing If, my company, full time, well, I had to let go of some identity things, like working for a big company. I had to let go of that. But I also had to halve my salary. And again, that, that to me was a really, like, pivotal decision where I had to, the ladder said, "Become more senior, earn more money, 'cause that's what success is." And I'd been on that ladder for a little while. But actually the squiggly career said, "Work out what's meaningful and motivating for you, build the support you need around it, and, and use that to drive your development." And so- That enabled me to have the confidence and clarity to make a move that not everyone agreed with.

Ali Abdaal 36:28 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 36:28 People were like, "This is madness, Helen. Why are you doing this? You've done it like this way for so long, just keep doing it like this." But that has been so much better for my development, for my impact, for my happiness. And then I, I, I think because work does take up such a big part of your life, it has ripples on the people around you, too, and I think it has been better for my family. Like, I think my children now see me being very happy at work, and they see work in a different way because of that decision I made about my development. And I'm not saying everyone should make that decision, but what I am saying is that if you can put work and money in these slightly different boxes, you know?

Ali Abdaal 37:04 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 37:04 Not, not-

Ali Abdaal 37:05 Yeah

Helen Tupper 37:05 ... in the same, like it's all tied together.

Ali Abdaal 37:06 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 37:06 If you just kind of hold them here for a second and just look at them slightly more critically, it can help you to make different choices.

Ali Abdaal 37:14 Yeah, that's it. Um, this values thing. Um, a lot of people talk about, you know, figure out your values, but like what I liked about the book is that you actually have a step-by-step process for how to figure out your values. Um, so just if we stick on this point a bit-

Helen Tupper 37:25 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 37:25 ... I wonder if we- can we just like talk through it for me?

Helen Tupper 37:27 Yes.

Ali Abdaal 37:28 Like, how, how would we figure out my values?

Helen Tupper 37:29 Okay.

Ali Abdaal 37:29 And I'm, I'm hoping that listeners or viewers can then apply this to their situation.

Helen Tupper 37:32 Okay. Um, so let's, uh, let me ask you a few questions.

Ali Abdaal 37:36 Sure, please.

Helen Tupper 37:36 And then I'll, I'll just kind of collect some insights as we go.

Ali Abdaal 37:38 Fantastic.

Helen Tupper 37:38 Um, in terms of the people that you work with-

Ali Abdaal 37:40 Mm

Helen Tupper 37:40 ... what's most important to you about those people? If you were gonna create your perfect team, what traits and behaviors would you want to, to see in those people?

Ali Abdaal 37:48 Ooh. Um, energizing, uh, getting stuff done, keen on pushing the envelope, entrepreneurial, um, friendly. Yeah.

Helen Tupper 38:04 Okay.

Ali Abdaal 38:04 Does that make sense?

Helen Tupper 38:05 Yeah, yeah, it does.

Ali Abdaal 38:06 Okay.

Helen Tupper 38:06 It does.

Ali Abdaal 38:06 Okay. Yeah.

Helen Tupper 38:06 Uh, I'm trying to keep it all in my head, no pen and paper.

Ali Abdaal 38:08 Cool.

Helen Tupper 38:08 So got energizing, uh, entrepreneurial, effective-

Ali Abdaal 38:12 Yeah

Helen Tupper 38:12 ... they're getting things done, so I'll kind of hold those. Um, what about the type of work you're doing? What's most important? If you're designing your perfect day, what, what kind of work are you actually spending your time doing and why?

Ali Abdaal 38:22 Hmm. If I were designing my perfect day?

Helen Tupper 38:25 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 38:27 I really like, uh, teaching and learning, and so if I could spend some proportion of my day learning and growing, and then some amount of my day like applying those insights or something, and then some amount of my day teaching or sharing those insights through writing or through making videos or through talking to people. Um, more through talking to people and making videos rather than writing, 'cause writing is kind of-

Helen Tupper 38:49 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 38:50 ... kind of annoying. It feels more contracting rather than expansive. Um, that would be a pretty, pretty good day.

Helen Tupper 38:55 Okay. Expansive is an interesting word. What does expansive mean to you?

Ali Abdaal 39:00 Hmm. What does expansive mean to me? Uh, when I'm giving a talk in public, I feel like more open. When I'm sitting at my computer typing shit out on a Google Doc, I feel more closed. That's what I mean by expansive.

Helen Tupper 39:12 Yeah. Yep, got it.

Ali Abdaal 39:12 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 39:12 Okay. Um, and then last thing, in terms of where you work, if you maybe think in your career the different places that you've worked-

Ali Abdaal 39:20 Yeah

Helen Tupper 39:21 ... the, the team you're creating now, the company that you're creating now, what's important to you about the culture of those places?

Ali Abdaal 39:27 Ooh, okay. So a friendly, um, casual, um... I remember when working in the hospital, uh, the days that were the most enjoyable were ones where there was this sense of camaraderie with a bit of casualness, so kind of the younger consultants rather than the really old consultants that we were working with who could have a bit of a laugh, and we'd go to the doctors' mess together, and we'd sort of chat about patients while having some chips or something like that, and that was really nice. And then when I discovered WeWork and started working from there when, you know, during the pandemic when I quit the day job, that felt like, oh, this is, this is my happy place.

Helen Tupper 40:07 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 40:07 I just love, fricking love going to a WeWork, which is just like nice-

Helen Tupper 40:09 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 40:10 ... and there's free coffee, and the people are wearing T-shirts and chinos, and what a, what a vibe.

Helen Tupper 40:14 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 40:14 That kind of thing.

Helen Tupper 40:15 Amazing. So what I am, I am listening for the words that you're saying, and I'm listening to the way that you say them.

Ali Abdaal 40:23 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 40:24 So, so when, when people talk about their values, I feel like, um, when you're getting really close to it, if you watch people, you can see effect a very physical response. So some people go, "Oh, I hated it." You know, they'll like literally, they'll, they'll use their body like this. They'll come inwards. They'll be like, "Oh, I hated it in that job." And you're like, "Oh, oh, why?"

Ali Abdaal 40:40 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 40:40 Talk a bit more about this, and I'm just watching the body. When you talk about WeWork, you get in your words kind of very expansive, like with your body. You're, you're like, "Oh, I loved it. There's people. They've got T-shirts," and, [laughs] and you're just getting bigger, and you're smilier. So sometimes when you're getting close to what someone's values are, you can literally see it. I can see it in the energy that comes from someone when they talk about it, because remember, this is what makes you you.

Ali Abdaal 41:01 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 41:01 So when you're in those environments with those people, you're like more Ali.

Ali Abdaal 41:04 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 41:04 It's more you. Um, or you hear it in repeated words. So there are the words that people just say over and over. So you mentioned, um, friendly about three times when you were talking there.

Ali Abdaal 41:14 Oh, did I?

Helen Tupper 41:15 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 41:15 Okay.

Helen Tupper 41:15 You talked about-

Ali Abdaal 41:16 Right. Yeah

Helen Tupper 41:16 ... I really like, you know, like friendly people.

Ali Abdaal 41:18 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 41:18 It's important that people are friendly. You, sometimes it's cl- like clues in exact words. Sometimes it's like a theme. So, um, I've, in listening to you describe, there's some sort of theme, I think, something about connection or community.

Ali Abdaal 41:32 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 41:32 Like when you talk about the doctors' mess, it's like this community of people-

Ali Abdaal 41:36 Yeah

Helen Tupper 41:36 ... but it's a very, um, uh, like non-hierarchical, equal. You talk about WeWork. You know, there's this community of people. Everyone's there and bumping in. So I don't know whether it would be community or connection, but what I'm trying to spot is these words that you say frequently, the clues, as well as some words that are similar, there's a cluster, and then your, your body language, and that, that's all data. And for me, I'm just like listening and learning, and if I could just get you talking even more, I would get more data. I'd collect more clues.

Ali Abdaal 42:05 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 42:05 And then it is not my job to say to you, "And here are your values." Like that, that's your decision, but part of what- We're trying to do, and people can do this on their own or supported by somebody else, is to look at these clues and say, "Okay, well, what does feel most like me?" I'm just presenting you with what you've played back to me, but I'm doing it in a way that creates clarity. So you said words like, um, you talked a lot about, um, entrepreneurialism. I thought that expansive word was really interesting. You know, you, you talked a lot about, I like learning and growing and sharing, and I was like, oh, is that expanding knowledge? Is that your value? Like, you're expanding your own knowledge, you're expanding other people's knowledge.

Ali Abdaal 42:41 Mm-hmm.

Helen Tupper 42:42 I like to listen out for, like, particularly what I think are sticky words, words that other people don't say-

Ali Abdaal 42:47 Mm

Helen Tupper 42:47 ... because then they're more meaningful and memorable to you.

Ali Abdaal 42:49 Yep.

Helen Tupper 42:50 Where it's not like I've ticked it off a list. Like, I don't really want people to just go through a list and go, "Oh, yes, I've got a value of ambition, and I've got a value-

Ali Abdaal 42:56 Yes. [laughs]

Helen Tupper 42:56 ... of this, you know? But you, you might have it, but let's talk about it for a bit longer. What does that word mean to you? 'Cause if I can find the sticky words-

Ali Abdaal 43:03 Mm

Helen Tupper 43:04 ... it's more likely to stick with you, and then you're more likely to use it when you're thinking about your career.

Ali Abdaal 43:10 Damn, that's really good.

Helen Tupper 43:10 [laughs] Oh, good. Oh, good.

Ali Abdaal 43:12 It's like you've done this before. Wow. [laughs] I'm just blown away. Um, so is there a list of words that someone could look through and be like-

Helen Tupper 43:18 Ah.

Ali Abdaal 43:18 Because, like-

Helen Tupper 43:19 There is, yes.

Ali Abdaal 43:19 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 43:19 It's in the book-

Ali Abdaal 43:20 Yeah

Helen Tupper 43:20 ... 'cause we had to put it in-

Ali Abdaal 43:21 [laughs]

Helen Tupper 43:21 ... and everyone loves a list. But, um, I just want people to think before they tick, you know? I want, I want you to really think about what a brilliant day looks like and what a bad look, day looks like.

Ali Abdaal 43:33 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 43:33 And I want you to pick apart those moments and reflect on it, and I want you to talk to someone, and I want them to listen to you, and then you can go to a list. But the list should reinforce. You know? So it's, I think, use your reflection first-

Ali Abdaal 43:46 Mm

Helen Tupper 43:46 ... and then you can look at a list, and you can go, "Oh, yeah, that was the word I meant. Yes. That, that's it. That's it," or, "Oh, I, I think I've missed that," rather than taking one minute to scan through a list of words and going tick, tick, tick, and move on. Like, values aren't a tick list. They have formed through a lot of your life experience, and we need to unpick and reflect upon that in order for us to really, like, do the work. Like, do the work, but it's worth it. If you can work out what your values are, you will be happier at work, you'll make better choice about your development, and you'll build better relationships with other people. It is worth doing the work. So yes, there's a list, but I'm just gonna encourage everyone to, like, do, do the work first.

Ali Abdaal 44:29 Love it. Um, what is a good amount of values to have in one's mind? [laughs]

Helen Tupper 44:33 Mm, yeah. I, I would say three to four. So if you look in the research of this, there's difference between core values and satellite values. So satellite values are basically, like, the long list of things that are important to you. You might have 10. You might, you might be, "Okay, well, I've got entrepreneurialism, and I've got achievement, and I've got community, and I've got knowledge," and, you know, you might have this long list. But we want to get down to three to four. Um, there's a few ways that you can, you could do that. I mean, sometimes you can just look at it and be like, "It's those." Um, if I just took some words now that you've said to me-

Ali Abdaal 45:03 Yeah

Helen Tupper 45:03 ... um, these may or may not be your values 'cause you haven't, you know, chosen them. But let's say I, I take the words, uh, some of the words you mentioned, so, um, entrepreneurialism, uh, community, uh, growth, and I want to say friendly [laughs] 'cause you had that one in there.

Ali Abdaal 45:17 Mm. Mm.

Helen Tupper 45:18 So what I could say to you is, um, what's more important to you, entrepreneurialism or community?

Ali Abdaal 45:23 Community.

Helen Tupper 45:24 What's more important to you, entrepreneurialism or, um, knowledge?

Ali Abdaal 45:29 Knowledge.

Helen Tupper 45:30 What's more important to you, entrepreneurialism or f- or friendly?

Ali Abdaal 45:33 Friendly.

Helen Tupper 45:34 Okay. Then we'd go to the, the, the second one-

Ali Abdaal 45:36 Yeah

Helen Tupper 45:36 ... where I talk to you about community. What's more important to you, community or entrepreneurialism?

Ali Abdaal 45:41 Community.

Helen Tupper 45:41 What's more important to you, community or friendly?

Ali Abdaal 45:45 Ooh. Mm. It's kind of the same maybe.

Helen Tupper 45:48 Ah.

Ali Abdaal 45:48 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 45:49 Okay.

Ali Abdaal 45:49 They're getting at the similar... Yeah.

Helen Tupper 45:51 Hold that thought.

Ali Abdaal 45:51 Okay. [laughs]

Helen Tupper 45:52 Um, and then what's more important to you, uh, entrepreneurialism, uh, or, uh, friendly?

Ali Abdaal 45:57 Oh, friendly. Yeah.

Helen Tupper 45:58 Okay. Okay.

Ali Abdaal 45:58 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 45:59 So ideally, I'd have a few more words.

Ali Abdaal 46:00 Sure, yeah.

Helen Tupper 46:01 And I wouldn't be trying to do this all in my head. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 46:02 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 46:02 I would have pen and paper, and I'd be, but I'd be able to see. There, I'm always looking out for a couple of things here. I'm looking out for the noises. So you know when you went ooh? [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 46:10 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 46:10 I, I, I love an ooh-

Ali Abdaal 46:11 Okay

Helen Tupper 46:11 ... 'cause that means you're going, you're really thinking, and exactly what you played back to me was, "They're getting at the same thing." Brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant. That's a cluster. So you'd said community, and you said friendly, but to you they're very... Of course they're different words. You look in a dictionary, they're different words. But to you, the meaning of those words-

Ali Abdaal 46:28 Mm

Helen Tupper 46:29 ... is getting at something very, very similar.

Ali Abdaal 46:31 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 46:31 And we don't have to worry about the exact word right now.

Ali Abdaal 46:34 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 46:34 That's just gonna delay us. So we'll just call it community/friendly.

Ali Abdaal 46:37 Okay, nice.

Helen Tupper 46:38 And then that's gonna just, we'll just hold that thought.

Ali Abdaal 46:39 Cool.

Helen Tupper 46:39 And you just take your list of words, and you, you score them through exactly like I was doing there. You, you take the first word, score them across all of them, and the next one.

Ali Abdaal 46:46 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 46:46 We're basically ranking them all against each other to work out what rises to the top.

Ali Abdaal 46:50 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 46:50 The ones that rise to the top, that's the difference between your core values and your satellite, and we're looking for three to four. The reason it's three to four is that it's memorable, um, 'cause I can't remember a list of 10 things. [laughs] Uh, it's memorable, it's meaningful, and it's manageable. So I can use three to four to reflect on and make decisions. A list of 10, I, I can't remember them-

Ali Abdaal 47:12 Yeah

Helen Tupper 47:12 ... and so therefore it's not very useful. Um, and also, I'd trade them off anyway. I would always... Freedom is my top value, trade it off for everything.

Ali Abdaal 47:19 Mm.

Helen Tupper 47:19 Um, so you, you, once you have that clarity about your core values, then you, that's where your confidence comes from-

Ali Abdaal 47:27 Yeah

Helen Tupper 47:27 ... to use them to make the decisions.

Ali Abdaal 47:28 To what extent are values the same as kind of needs? 'Cause we've used, we, we've used the word need quite a lot.

Helen Tupper 47:34 Hmm.

Ali Abdaal 47:34 And yeah.

Helen Tupper 47:36 I think they're very similar. I mean, I think, actually sometimes I think the word values can get in the way. You know, it can feel a bit self-developmenty.

Ali Abdaal 47:42 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 47:42 Like, and there are some people who-

Ali Abdaal 47:43 Like, what are your values?

Helen Tupper 47:44 Yeah, yeah.

Ali Abdaal 47:44 Find your values exercise.

Helen Tupper 47:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ali Abdaal 47:45 Whereas if you call it a need, it's like-

Helen Tupper 47:46 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 47:46 ... I have a need for freedom.

Helen Tupper 47:47 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 47:47 [laughs]

Helen Tupper 47:48 Yeah, exactly.

Ali Abdaal 47:48 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 47:48 And I, I never... It's really funny language. Like, we know language is really important. It's why, you know, we talk about confidence gaps. It's why we talk about squiggly, right? We know language is very sticky. But also, I think sometimes language can just get in the way. Um, and to be hon- you can talk about your values without ever saying the word values. Like, I might just say to you, like, if you're my manager, [clears throat] I might just say to you, "One of the things that's really important to me is that I feel like I'm getting a lot of wins along the way." Like, that is my definition of achievement, but I haven't mentioned the word values, and I haven't even mentioned the word achievement.

Ali Abdaal 48:17 Mm.

Helen Tupper 48:17 I've just taken what that word means to m- me and shared it with you in a discussion-

Ali Abdaal 48:21 Mm

Helen Tupper 48:21 ... maybe about my, my development or what I'm doing in the company. And so if you want to call it needs, call it needs. If you don't want to call it either, you, like, you must, like, one of the things that motivates me is, um, one of the things that I want from my work is-

Ali Abdaal 48:33 Yeah

Helen Tupper 48:33 ... like, like get rid of my values.

Ali Abdaal 48:34 It's all getting at the same sort of-

Helen Tupper 48:35 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 48:35 ... nice.

Helen Tupper 48:36 Just get rid of it if it's getting in your way of talking about it.

Ali Abdaal 48:39 Damn, that's really good. Um- How can you be sure that your values are not being inf- influenced by external sources?

Helen Tupper 48:46 Hmm. Um, [laughs] why, um, I'm laughing because my, uh, the first time my business partner reflected on her values, she was working in Canary Wharf, and she did them, I think she said it's like on the 23rd story of like a building in Canary Worth- Wharf where she was working in banking, and she did all the exercises. Uh, and she came out with very, uh, I'm just gonna call them Canary Wharf-type values. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 49:12 Okay, yeah.

Helen Tupper 49:12 Banking values. It was all, like, achievement, and it was all very, like, one, a one-sided version of her. And a manager called her on it, um, because I think she talked, she was like, "I've done it. Here's my work. Here are my values. I've sat in this room on my own, looking out over London, and these are my values." And her manager was like, "Ah, that's surprising. I see other things in you. Like, you light up in other situations. This seems to only be one aspect of you." Um, and Sarah's like, "Oh," and then she went away and reflected on it a little bit more in a different place. Um, and the words that came out were much more nuanced and much more reflective of all, all the things that she is and all the things that motivates her. So I think that is, um, an example that we can be influenced by the environment that we're doing this in, the people that we might be doing it with, and I think it's why with this one, repetition's really important.

Ali Abdaal 50:03 Oh, nice.

Helen Tupper 50:03 I think you should do these exercises more than once. I still come back to it. I still, um, I will still go back to, uh, the career graph, and I might do it for a year. You know, I mentioned doing that career graph to Henry. I might just do it for a year, like 2022, and think, "What were my highs and lows in 2022?" And now if I reflect on the really standout points in time, the highs and the lows, what was going on in those moments, almost just as a sense check. Like, are they still, are those core values still the same core values, or is something else creeping in? Has there been some significant moment that I didn't appreciate that's changed my perspective? And I've done that quite a few times, and it doesn't change. For me-

Ali Abdaal 50:38 Mm-hmm

Helen Tupper 50:38 ... anyway, it hasn't changed. But that's, I think this is not just a one-time only-

Ali Abdaal 50:43 Yeah

Helen Tupper 50:43 ... I'll do this exercise, and then I'm done. Like, you, your situation will change. Your experiences might expand who you are, and so I think we need to come back to this. And the more you come back to it, the more you see the consistencies, the more we know that we've not been swayed by a place or a person.

Ali Abdaal 50:56 Hmm. Love it. Um, so let's say someone figures out their core values, and they're like, "Ah, I am not feeling these-

Helen Tupper 51:03 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 51:03 ... in my work."

Helen Tupper 51:04 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 51:04 "I'm not feeling a lot of these." W- w- what happens next?

Helen Tupper 51:07 Yeah. Um, been there. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 51:09 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 51:10 We've been there. Um, so I think the first thing for people to do, I think, is not, not to panic about your sudden progression and just go, "I'm leaving straight away." I think let's pause a little bit. Um, s- there are sometimes ways that with a conversation you can increase the amount your values are fulfilled in a particular position. I've done that. I've, I've created roles in companies that didn't exist until I did them.

Ali Abdaal 51:32 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 51:33 So, um, don't... I always think about, you know, like leaping versus learning. Lots of people leap into a new, a new role, but we, if we spend our career leaping without doing the learning, then it's not really a great plan for our progression. So we just want to sit and kind of think, "Well, okay, these are my values. How do they play out? Could they play out more here? Could I have some conversations about my career and what I'm looking for from work and see whether that's possible here?" And I think once we've explored those different avenues, you might get to a decision that it, I'm not in the right position, I'm not in the right company, and then at least you've got more insight that can inform your progression. So I had, I had this experience where I was in an organization, and I was doing pretty well on the surface, like you would've said, "Helen's, you know, doing, doing well." But actually, below the surface, I wasn't particularly happy. And I really pressed pause on it, and I went back to the skills, and I was like, "Well, what is going on here? Um, what's going on with my values, strengths, um, confidence, network, community?" I was like, "What's going on here?" Um, and what I realized was, and I had several conversations, and I realized I couldn't really do what I wanted to do with my development there, whi- which was, you know, it's fine to come to that conclusion. Um, that, but then when I went to my next move, I made sure that I had some curious career conversations with people in different positions in different companies so I could understand whether they were likely to be a good fit for me.

Ali Abdaal 52:53 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 52:53 So I was getting sort of, I, so I, you know, I was like, I remember I went, I remember ultimately I went to work for Virgin, and I remember saying, like, how much freedom do people have in what they work on and how they work-

Ali Abdaal 53:03 Hmm

Helen Tupper 53:03 ... because same as you-

Ali Abdaal 53:05 Yeah

Helen Tupper 53:05 ... so that's so important to me. And if someone said, "Well, we do have processes that we have to follow, and work is very..." I, I'd have a flag in my brain that this probably wasn't the right place for me.

Ali Abdaal 53:13 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 53:13 But what I heard was things like, um, "Oh, yeah. I mean, everyone's got a side project-

Ali Abdaal 53:18 Yeah

Helen Tupper 53:18 ... and everyone's doing all this." And so I, I heard that this was likely to be an environment that was gonna work well for me. And then, you know, you also want to make sure that these roles that you're going for, these companies that you're going to work in, that they need what you want to be known for. So you, if you understand what your strengths are and what you want to be known for, you really want to make sure that they actually need that. Because otherwise, you might move into a position that looks perfect on paper-

Ali Abdaal 53:41 Yeah

Helen Tupper 53:41 ... but it's not, it's not going to be perfect for you. Because if it doesn't need what you want to be known for, then you're not, you're not gonna be happy. You're not gonna be doing a job that you're gonna be energized by. You're not gonna make the impact that you could elsewhere.

Ali Abdaal 53:50 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 53:50 And so just spending a bit of time taking that insight, using it to inform the move that we make means that we make better decisions. But in the meantime, 'cause you still have these needs or whatever we're gonna call it, you still have the values within you, I would be looking for ways that they can be filled outside of work. So I would be thinking, "Okay, if I can't get this here, and I've tried, and it's not happening-

Ali Abdaal 54:12 Hmm

Helen Tupper 54:12 ... that is not gonna, that, that's not gonna go anywhere. So are there, um, communities that you can be part of? That's been massively helpful for me. Communities and contribution outside of work has been hugely helpful because, um, you know, if I can be a trustee for a charity, then my values for achievement and growth are fulfilled in slightly different ways. And if I can, you know, contribute to, uh, communities and part of lots of different communities, the energy that I need, which means positivity and proactivity to me, I get a lot of that from those communities. So our contribution and communities have worked well for m- me when in my career in the moment my values haven't been as fulfilled as I might like them to be.

Ali Abdaal 54:51 We've talked about values.

Helen Tupper 54:52 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 54:52 What about

Ali Abdaal 54:53 strengths?

Helen Tupper 54:53 What about strengths?

Ali Abdaal 54:54 So, um, yeah. You call them super strengths, I think?

Helen Tupper 54:58 Yeah. So we call them super strengths, and I think actually since we wrote The Squiggly Career, 'cause obviously we are, we are talking to people about this stuff all the time, like a part of our business is helping people with squiggly skills. So I think our understanding, um, is evolving all the time, and I think one of the things that for me in strengths that's actually changed the way I think about them since we wrote the book is, um, uh, this idea that strengths start with the things that you're good at.

Ali Abdaal 55:20 Ooh, okay.

Helen Tupper 55:21 I think there's like, so this is a little bit, a bit of a-

Ali Abdaal 55:23 Hello

Helen Tupper 55:23 ... trap here.

Ali Abdaal 55:24 Right. Anti-Cal Newport vibes.

Helen Tupper 55:25 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 55:25 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 55:25 So most people will say a strength is something that you're good at-

Ali Abdaal 55:28 Yeah

Helen Tupper 55:28 ... and you know, a super strength is something that you then become great at. You invest in it, you become brilliant at it, become known for it. Um, I think the starting point for that is wrong. So the things, strengths being the things you're good at, um, actually strength's the things that give you energy-

Ali Abdaal 55:43 Ooh, okay

Helen Tupper 55:43 ... in the work that you do.

Ali Abdaal 55:44 Nice.

Helen Tupper 55:45 Um, even if you're not great at them yet. So when people think they have to be good at something or they have to be great at it for it to be a strength, they start sort of dismissing it and they go, "Well, I'm not as good at Ali as it, so it can't be a strength because obviously it's your strength, but I'm not as good as you, so it's not becoming my strength." And you get into all this stuff. So if we just... If our starting point for strengths is just strengths are the things that give us energy, it's a kind of easier starting point. It's the weakness thing I just want to really reflect on for a little bit. So weaknesses are the things you do that take your energy away when you do them, even if you are good at them.

Ali Abdaal 56:15 Nice.

Helen Tupper 56:15 And that's the bit that I wanna hold. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 56:18 Okay.

Helen Tupper 56:18 So weaknesses are things you do, take your energy away when you do them, even if you are good at them. Because the, the issue that I see a lot is that people have things that they're good at. Like, we all have like, peop- we've got a list of abilities, right? There's things we've learnt to do. Some things are natural talents, but not all of those things give us energy at work, and it is a real issue for people's development when the thing that they are good at, they find draining to do, but other people see it as a strength and then they can't get out of a situation where they have to keep doing it. It's, it's a real trap for their career. And what we have to start doing is make sure the things that give us energy that we want to be known for, that that stuff stands out, and that we are not defined by the work that we find draining to do. Now, y- y- you can't just stop doing it overnight. So let's say somebody's like, "Oh my gosh, that is a revelation. I spent 80% of my time doing spreadsheets, and I hate it." Like, you can't suddenly go, "I'm never doing a spreadsheet again. Delete."

Ali Abdaal 57:15 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 57:15 Um, because your manager's probably gonna get really frustrated with you [laughs] and that's not gonna help us build the relationships we need to succeed. Um, but what we are aiming for is no more than 20% of our time on that kind of work. Um, like, let's just be honest. We all have things that we find draining to do. We definitely don't wanna be defined by it. We definitely don't wanna spend all our time doing it, but it is probably still gonna be a bit of your role.

Ali Abdaal 57:35 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 57:35 So 20%, no more than that, um, because we need to put most of our effort and energy into making those strengths stand out that we want to be known for.

Ali Abdaal 57:42 Mm.

Helen Tupper 57:42 But also just get good enough at it. Like, you don't need to be amazing at it. Like, sometimes it's okay to be good enough at things. So spreadsheets, for example, just, just get good enough at it so it doesn't get in your way.

Ali Abdaal 57:55 Mm.

Helen Tupper 57:55 And definitely don't spend more than 20% of your time doing it, because if we can spend more time on the strengths, things that give us energy, that becomes really self-fulfilling in a squiggly career. We wanna make sure that those things we wanna be known out, uh, for stand out because the more we can do that, goes right back to what we were talking about, about becomes part of your brand, gets bigger and better. Other people associate with you. They come to you for more of what you want to be good at.

Ali Abdaal 58:19 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 58:19 Um, that's where we wanna get to.

Ali Abdaal 58:22 Nice. That's a really good way of thinking about it. It's almost a sh- a shame the word is strength and weaknesses 'cause it's like drainers and energizers-

Helen Tupper 58:28 Yeah. I mean-

Ali Abdaal 58:29 ... kind of thing

Helen Tupper 58:29 ... again, that's the language

Ali Abdaal 58:30 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 58:30 Maybe we just, maybe strengths, it, it... But I often find that people feel like they've done strengths-

Ali Abdaal 58:35 Yeah

Helen Tupper 58:35 ... and that can be a bit of a barrier.

Ali Abdaal 58:36 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 58:36 Like a mental barrier. They become quite fixed and go, "Oh, I've done a strengths course."

Ali Abdaal 58:40 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 58:40 You're like, "Okay." [laughs] Like, "And d- and, and how much are you using in your job?" "Well, I don't know, but I can tell you what's on my strengths profile."

Ali Abdaal 58:46 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 58:46 I'm like, okay. But it's just, you know all those reports and tools and things? They're just an input.

Ali Abdaal 58:51 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 58:51 It's, it's, like what we do with the awareness, and w- w- Sarah, my business partner, and I, we're always talking about it's awareness and action.

Ali Abdaal 58:57 Mm.

Helen Tupper 58:57 Doesn't matter how many forms you fill in, how many online surveys you take, how many courses you go on. If it's just a load of awareness, it's not really doing anything different for your development. So with strengths, I think we've really, we've gotta put it into action. We've gotta make those strengths stand out. We've gotta stretch them in different situations.

Ali Abdaal 59:13 Yeah. We're gonna take a very quick break from the podcast to introduce our sponsor, Brilliant.org. I've been using Brilliant for a few years now, and it's a fantastic online platform for courses in maths and science and computer science. Now, one of my life philosophies is that we should all endeavor to be lifelong learners if we want, 'cause it's good for the mind, it's good for the body, it's good for our general happiness and health. And Brilliant is a perfect resource from this because you can really level up your own thinking in terms of maths and science and computer science without having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on extra degrees or extra courses. Now, the courses on Brilliant are actually great because they take what could be dry topics in maths and science and computer science, and they turn them into really interesting, interactive, and enjoyable kind of experiences where you learn a little bit, and then you apply it in practice, and then you learn a bit more, and then you put it into practice. And it's almost like the system that we used to use in our tutorials back when I was at, at university at Cambridge, where you would learn a little thing, and then you'd be paired with a world-class expert in the thing, and they'd be asking you questions, and you'd be kind of figuring it out together rather than being spoon-fed information like we're normally taught in school. Each lesson on Brilliant is broken up into 15-minute bite-sized chunks, and so wherever you are in your day, you can find a little bit of time and you can go on the app and you can level up your brain rather than scrolling social media or whatever the other default activity might be. And it's pretty cool as well because they're constantly updating the library of courses. For example, they've recently released a course, Introduction to Algebra, and this is like a visual representation of algebraic thinking. Now, I thought I understood algebra because I did maths in school, but actually the way that Brilliant explains it with kind of the stories and the puzzles and the interactive exercises you go along, has really given me a new understanding of algebra that I just didn't have before, and that maybe you would need to do, like, a maths degree to actually get that grasp of what algebra actually is and why it's so important. So if any of that sounds up your street and you'd like to level up your thinking and your knowledge in maths or science or computer science, then head over to Brilliant.org/DeepDive, and the first 200 people to click that link, which will be in the show notes and in the video description as well, will get 20% off the annual premium subscription. So thank you so much, Brilliant, for sponsoring this episode, and let's get right back to the podcast There's a rule in medicine, which is that there's no point doing a blood test if, uh, the results are not gonna change the management plan.

Helen Tupper 1:01:10 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:01:10 And it's like, you could do all the blood tests you like-

Helen Tupper 1:01:12 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:01:12 ... and spend like tens of thousands of pounds on all the fancy blood tests, but if it's not gonna change anything-

Helen Tupper 1:01:15 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:01:15 ... then like, what's, what's the point?

Helen Tupper 1:01:17 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:01:17 It's like, you know.

Helen Tupper 1:01:18 And I think, again, and that it could sound a bit brutal. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:01:20 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:01:21 Like it could sound a bit like, well, you can fill it in, but you've got to do something about it, but it's, it's true. I think the thing that makes it a bit less brutal is, is when people understand the why. Like, why is this gonna be better for me? Well, if, if you are willing to take that awareness about strengths and put it into action, you, you'll be more energized by the work that you're doing, and you spend so much of your time at work. Do you, do you not wanna be energized by it? You'll also have a bigger impact, like, because you're gonna do the work that you find energy, that you're gonna-

Ali Abdaal 1:01:44 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:01:44 ... get better at.

Ali Abdaal 1:01:45 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:01:45 And so I think sometimes we do have to connect people with the why.

Ali Abdaal 1:01:49 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:01:49 Otherwise, it's all just a bit theoretical, like invest in your strengths and succeed in a career. Like, it's, it's like, but why, why does it matter to you? And if we can, like, work with the why at an individual level, we can often find the motivation to do something different to what someone's probably doing today.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:01 Yeah. Yeah. This is, uh, I'm, I'm kind of like annoyed at myself, 'cause this is like the exact thesis of my book, uh, which we've just sent to the copy editor, and I'm like, "Oh, I should have mentioned something about strengths." [laughs]

Helen Tupper 1:02:14 Oh, they love it when you go back and you add more things in.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:16 Yeah. [laughs]

Helen Tupper 1:02:16 They really enjoy that. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:02:17 I tried so hard to cut it down. It's like it was 120,000, now it's 65,000 words, and I'm like-

Helen Tupper 1:02:21 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:02:22 ... "You're so right. I need to add in a bit." Because, like, the whole of part one is what are the things that energize you-

Helen Tupper 1:02:26 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 1:02:26 ... and how can we apply them to our work? 'Cause the title is Feel-Good Productivity.

Helen Tupper 1:02:29 Ah, love it.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:29 And it's like, you know, the way we become more productive is not by trying to manage our time. It's by trying to regenerate our energy.

Helen Tupper 1:02:35 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:35 And if close to everything we do in our work can be energizing, it means you have way more energy at work. As a result, you're way more productive, and you feel great. And then you get home, and you have way more energy to do other things-

Helen Tupper 1:02:45 It's, it's-

Ali Abdaal 1:02:45 ... like hang out with your f- family and shit. Like-

Helen Tupper 1:02:47 It's so true.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:47 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:02:47 I remember when I started Squiggly Careers as a side project, so I was at Virgin. I'd, I just had my first child, Henry, and I'd just started an MBA, and I'd just started a side project.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:57 Oh.

Helen Tupper 1:02:57 And pretty much everyone around me was like, "That is madness."

Ali Abdaal 1:03:01 Mm-hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:03:01 Like, "What, what are you... Why are you adding this into that mix? You're gonna exhaust yourself." And it was a lot. I'm not gonna say it wasn't a lot. It was a lot, but the thing is, I would leave my work, my job at Virgin, and I would go and run a Squiggly Skills session. And honestly, I would get there about 7:00, and I would probably start a little bit tired, 'cause I'd already done a day at Virgin-

Ali Abdaal 1:03:19 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:03:19 ... and goodness knows what time my little boy got up in the morning, and study was on my mind. Um, and so I did start a little bit tired, but that session would finish by half past 8, and I went home. I remember I used to get on the train, and I'd get my lunch for the, the dinner from the station and eat it at the train, and I was so energized-

Ali Abdaal 1:03:33 Nice

Helen Tupper 1:03:33 ... because that strength, that talent I wanted to be known for was about, you know, helping people learn, develop, and grow in their career specifically. And when I did it, I just, I, and I, I just loved it, and it gave me so much energy, and I would take that into my job at Virgin the next day, and it would come with me, and it would affect how I led my team. And that energy just continued. And so I'm not saying everyone should do all of that stuff that I did, because it was hard, but I really saw the benefit of using a strength that gives you-

Ali Abdaal 1:04:03 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:04:03 ... energy in more situations and that actually side projects, some people, I think, they see side projects as a competition for the day job. You know, like you're doing that side project 'cause... I never saw it that way. I saw a side project as being a different way that I stretched my strength that meant that I got better in both positions. I was a much better manager in Virgin because of my side project. It didn't compete with that career.

Ali Abdaal 1:04:27 Ooh, nice. That's just, again, put a puzzle piece in my, in my head where... Uh, I, the, the, okay, so two things. One, there's, there's a bit of a narrative that side projects are hustle culture-y-

Helen Tupper 1:04:40 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:04:40 ... and like, oh, you know, it's, it's hard enough to get, get to the end of the day of work, and now you're telling everyone that they should-

Helen Tupper 1:04:45 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:04:45 ... have a side project.

Helen Tupper 1:04:46 Work more.

Ali Abdaal 1:04:46 Just, yeah, just, like, chill out and watch Netflix-

Helen Tupper 1:04:48 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:04:48 ... and, like, it's, it's okay to have a relaxing bath and stuff.

Helen Tupper 1:04:51 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:04:51 And I've always been, like, not a fan of this particular narrative because for me, the side project has always been incredibly energizing.

Helen Tupper 1:04:57 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:04:58 And people would often ask back when I was working in medicine, they're like, "Oh, you know, you w- working all day as a doctor, that's pretty demanding, and then you get home, and you just make these YouTube videos, and then h- how, how do you do all that?" And honestly, it's 'cause, like, I found ways to make the day job more energizing by figuring out what were the things that energized me and actively incorporating more of them into the thing and, like, realizing I get a lot of energy from just hanging out with the nurses and just having a cup of tea and chatting about whatever. So it's just, I mean, let me actively make an effort to do that 'cause it gives me energy. And then I get home, and I make a YouTube video, and that would give me energy, and it's just like this energy flywheel continues. And then, like, I was, I was never exhausted. I was never burnt out in the job, and yet a lot of my, my friends and colleagues who would work all day, get home, and then chill, the chill was not actually regenerating their energy.

Helen Tupper 1:05:41 Yes. Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:05:41 It was scrolling through social media, watching Netflix-

Helen Tupper 1:05:43 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:05:43 ... in a way that if, if you're really honest, like, like I get to the end of a Netflix sesh, and I feel drained rather than energized.

Helen Tupper 1:05:48 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:05:49 Whereas a side project, I feel energized. Great. Let's keep going. [laughs]

Helen Tupper 1:05:52 I think there's, um, there's a thing about active rest that I find quite interesting.

Ali Abdaal 1:05:56 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:05:56 Alex Pang talks about it in, um, in his book, and you know the, I always think there's like a scale, and on one, on one side, you've got kind of restful. We're asleep. We're in a great level of sleep.

Ali Abdaal 1:06:05 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:06:05 And then at the other side, we've got restless, where we're trying to do way too much stuff, and we're multitasking, and we're scrolling, and it's sort of like a restless mind-

Ali Abdaal 1:06:11 Mm

Helen Tupper 1:06:11 ... when we're going through, like, all these things. And, um, often you can't sleep at work. Like, you do have to be awake to do it, so we can't just rely on sleeping in our day.

Ali Abdaal 1:06:18 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:06:18 And we know that that restless thing isn't really working. But Alex Pang always talks about kind of this active rest thing in the middle-

Ali Abdaal 1:06:23 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:06:23 ... where you're doing an activity that consumes your attention, that gives you the energy back.

Ali Abdaal 1:06:28 Yeah, nice.

Helen Tupper 1:06:28 And I found that really, really useful 'cause I'd always thought, oh, I don't want to rest 'cause rest means doing nothing. And he, and he taught me that no, it doesn't mean doing nothing.

Ali Abdaal 1:06:37 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:06:37 It can mean doing something that you enjoy, that you find consuming, and, and it turns off all the noise of everything else. It turns off whatever was going on at the hospital or whatever's-

Ali Abdaal 1:06:45 Right

Helen Tupper 1:06:45 ... going on at home. And in doing that thing for an hour, and it can be anything, right? Some people like doing puzzles, like you-

Ali Abdaal 1:06:51 Mm-hmm

Helen Tupper 1:06:51 ... your, your nan likes doing Scrabble. Whatever it is-

Ali Abdaal 1:06:53 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:06:53 ... like people like doing that, it can be that thing, but it consumes you, and it gives you energy back, and I think it's working out what is that thing that gives you that energy back. But if it aligns with your strengths, even better.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:02 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:07:03 Even better, 'cause then, you know, you're building that talent at the same time.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:06 Yeah. Yeah. So the, when I was, when I was research- so the penultimate chapter of my book is, is about recharging, and so I did a load of research into the papers and stuff around what is it that makes certain n- activities energizing. And there was a really interesting meta-analysis they did where they sort of did all the... And, and they came up with like four things, was like if the thing that you're doing has these four things, chances are it's gonna be energizing or feel recharging. And with a bit of shoehorning, I turned it into the mnemonic, uh, CALM, C-A-L- uh, L-M. So C for, I think, is competence, so if you're good at the thing-

Helen Tupper 1:07:35 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:07:35 ... it more, more likely to be energizing. A for autonomy.

Helen Tupper 1:07:38 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:38 If you feel like you have ownership. L for liberty. Uh, it's a bit of a shoehorn-

Helen Tupper 1:07:42 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:07:42 ... but it's like basically sort of sufficiently distinct from your day job or the what you normally do-

Helen Tupper 1:07:46 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:07:46 ... which is why, like, Ed Sheeran paints rather than does music as his hobbies-

Helen Tupper 1:07:50 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:07:50 ... because it's like music is now his job and stuff. And then M for mellow. Again, bit of a shoehorn, but, uh, things that are not so, like, high energy But are like s- that, that, that feeling of calm and mellow-

Helen Tupper 1:08:02 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 1:08:02 ... that we get from doing things-

Helen Tupper 1:08:04 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 1:08:04 ... th- doing certain activities, those sort of C-A-L-M activities tend to be the ones that recharge us. And then the actual words they used in the study were a bit different, but it-

Helen Tupper 1:08:11 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:08:12 ... it wasn't a nice mnemonic, so it's like let's do some shoehorning.

Helen Tupper 1:08:14 But I think people-

Ali Abdaal 1:08:15 Yeah. [laughs]

Helen Tupper 1:08:15 ... don't often prioritize it because they think it's, it's... that's not important. But actually, the benefit of doing those things makes all the other things that you do in your day-

Ali Abdaal 1:08:24 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:08:24 ... kind of more, more efficient and effective.

Ali Abdaal 1:08:25 Yeah. So how... So I guess we're saying someone can ask themselves, "What are the things that I do in my work that bring me energy?"

Helen Tupper 1:08:33 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 1:08:33 "And what are the things that I do in my work that drain my energy?"

Helen Tupper 1:08:35 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 1:08:35 And then it's like, oh, crap, like, 60% of what I do drains my energy. What, what happens next?

Helen Tupper 1:08:42 So we need to, as well as that oh, crap realization, [laughs] we also need to do the, like, the oh, yes realization. Like the, okay, so those are the things that give me energy. Um, I mean, I would just, like, look in your diary. Your, your... Like, look at your days and the meetings that you've been in, and the moments in your week and, like, just pick out when were the highest energy moments and what was the strength I was actually using in that situation? Like, maybe you were researching or building relationships or, like, whatever you were doing. Um, and I would write a list of those words, and then from that list, I would pick no more than three. No more than three.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:14 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:09:14 I might even just go with one to begin with, to be honest. And the, the, the picking that you're doing is thinking of these words here, these strengths that give me energy, what do I actually want to be known for? I rarely see people make that choice.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:29 Ooh.

Helen Tupper 1:09:29 Rarely see someone go, "Do you know what? I actually... That is what I want to be known for. If people are talking about me and I'm not in the room, that, that is the thing that I want them to say about me." And I think the risk of people not making that choice is that they leave this to chance. You know? You might say one thing about me, and, you know, Sarah might say another, my manager that I work with at Virgin might say another. And so then my, my strengths are quite inconsistent. You know? Different people are saying different things about me in different places. I'm not really building my brand in a consistent way.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:57 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:09:57 Whereas if I take control of this, if I go, "I want to be known for career development," and that is exactly what I said. 10 years ago, not known for career development, known for marketing. I made a choice 'cause it was the thing that gave me the most energy in my day. Like, beyond the job title that I had, regardless of the company that I worked in, the thing that I loved was h- like, helping people with their careers.

Ali Abdaal 1:10:17 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:10:17 To the extent that I got some feedback [laughs] when I was at Microsoft from someone in my team who said I'd spent more time trying to understand the people that worked for me than I had the company that I worked in. And I was like, "That is harsh, but true. [laughs] Harsh, but true." And actually, that's just Helen. You know?

Ali Abdaal 1:10:32 Mm-hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:10:32 It's harsh, true, and Helen. And, um... but I thought it was a very, it was a very clear feedback to me. Um, and that's because that's the thing that I love doing. So you've got to make that choice. Once you've made that choice, you can start to really look at that strength and see, okay, well, what situations am I using it in today? Who and where could I use that strength with more? And, and that becomes a really intentional thing. Like, I literally thought, "Okay, if I wanna be known for career development, what am I gonna do differently in my one-to-ones? What am I gonna do differently in my meetings? What departments could I offer that skill to? I could run a lunch and learn." Um, until it just becomes j- just part of who you are, 'cause you're just... it's just how you're thinking about the things that you put yourself forward for.

Ali Abdaal 1:11:11 Mate, this is so good. I feel... I'm just getting so many dopamine hits and insides. Like, ah, everything you're saying is just so sick. [laughs] Wow. Um, what do I want to be known for? Like, yeah, that's... That ties into the whole, like, personal brand, professional reputation-y type stuff, which I know gives some people a bit of an allergic response.

Helen Tupper 1:11:26 [laughs] Shiver. Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:11:26 Yeah. It's like, ugh.

Helen Tupper 1:11:27 Yeah. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:11:27 Um, but it's so true. It's like... A- and you know, the, the thing I always say to people without really thinking about it too hard is, like, you have a personal brand whether you like it or not.

Helen Tupper 1:11:37 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:11:37 'Cause a personal brand is just a professional reputation. It's the thing that people say about you or think about you when you're not in the room. And I guess what you're saying is, like, let's think what do we actually want that to be-

Helen Tupper 1:11:47 Yes

Ali Abdaal 1:11:47 ... and actually work towards it.

Helen Tupper 1:11:48 Yeah, and work toward... And I think two, two kind of, uh, things that I think are important here.

Ali Abdaal 1:11:51 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:11:52 It takes time. So I couldn't come away from here and think, "Do you know what? I want to be known for being, I don't know, an expert in, what, neuroscience or something like that." [laughs] I could be like-

Ali Abdaal 1:12:03 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:12:03 ... I can make that decision. That's my choice. But it doesn't just happen overnight. You know, it takes, it takes learning, it takes opportunities, it takes experience, but I'm just driving that for my development. So I think you... it's, it is a choice that you can make, and you can definitely change the direction of your development because of it, but it does take a little bit of time.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:18 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:12:18 And then the other thing that I would say is you can change your mind. [laughs] You can definitely change your mind. Sometimes I think people think, "Oh, but I d- w- well, I don't want to be known for this forever," or whatever. Li- fi- fine, fine. Just know that you can make a choice and you can change your mind, but that it will take time to do it. It's also why I say with the five skills, pick the one that feels relevant for you right now because this does, this does take time. Reflecting on your values takes time. Um, and... but you're at work for a long time, so we've got time to do all this stuff. We don't have to rush it. We just have to start by where we are with the skill that we need most right now.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:52 Yeah. And just, like, minor course corrections along the way.

Helen Tupper 1:12:55 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:56 Um, nice. That's great. Okay, so we've talked about strengths, um, super strengths, energizing strengths, values, uh, and, and we talked about values. Um, you talk about

Ali Abdaal 1:13:04 confidence.

Helen Tupper 1:13:04 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:04 So what's the role of confidence in navigating a squiggly career?

Helen Tupper 1:13:07 Confidence is the key. [laughs] Confidence is the key. I often think I'm not supposed to have favorite values. I wonder if I really have. But I do think that, that, um... so I'm not, it's, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to have favorite skills. I think values is at the core of a squiggly career, 'cause if, if you're gonna have a career as individual as you are, you've got to know what motivates and drives you. So I think values are the, is at the core, and I think confidence is the key. Because w- if we are going to get people to take action, to do something different, to have a conversation, to make a difficult decision, all that stuff, they've got to have the confidence to do it, or otherwise it's all awareness. It's all nice, nice in theory. [laughs] And so we've got to get the awareness and the action, and the confidence is the key for that. And they, people have so many beliefs that hold them back. We, we call them confidence gremlins because you, you, you know, you really get into the territory of psychology here and limiting belief, and that can feel quite uncomfortable for people, and quite theoretical language.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:59 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:13:59 So we often, we talk about these as confidence gremlins, and we see some very common confidence gremlins that hold people back. Uh, like not knowing enough, for example. Uh, a fe- a need to be liked And people have some limiting beliefs about their age, like I'm not old enough or I'm too old, like both of them. Uh, people have, um, confidence gremlins related to, uh, failure, like I can't fail. If I, if I fail, I'm a failure. So this confidence gremlin about they can't possibly fail. Um, people have confidence gremlins about particular abilities as well that really get in the way of their growth, like I don't, I'm not good at numbers.

Ali Abdaal 1:14:33 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:14:33 Like any, any numbers [laughs] any numbers at all, just, they just say it. Often started at school when they weren't in the top set, and then it's just this, this little gremlin has grown, and then they're at work and they go, "I can't do numbers." Or, um, uh, presenting, that's another very common confidence gremlin where people are like, "Oh, I don't, I can't. I'm not a good presenter." And so then what they do is they stop sharing their thoughts and their ideas because presenting is such a big way that we communicate in lots of companies.

Ali Abdaal 1:14:56 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:14:56 So I think with, with confidence, the, the, the first thing that's really important very often is for people to know that they've got a gremlin and know that everybody else has too. 'Cause s- so often we're like, "Oh, well, I just think I'm, I just think I don't know enough and I'm gonna get found out." But like most people have those kind of thoughts, and it doesn't really matter how senior people are or what position they're in, most people have some kind of confidence gremlin that gets in the way of their growth. And I often find when we're doing like Squiggly skill sessions, that it's, it's, it's this moment of like realization. I'll be in a room, I was in a room recently with um, uh, a group of lawyers, uh, and I was thinking, well, they're gonna be, are they gonna be open? It was a group of lawyers talking about confidence, and I was like, are they gonna be open to talking about this? And we talked about the confidence gremlins, and I got everyone to, um, put their hands up every time they identified with one of the gremlins. Um, and they were putting their hands up in the room, and they were all obviously looking at each other in the room. [laughs] And then we'd went through all the 10 most common confidence gremlins, and I said, "And, and what, what does this all make you think? What, y- you've just seen each other put your hands up. What does it make you think?" And they, um, they were like, "Oh, we've all got gremlins." [laughs] And then they all sort of laughed, and then it was like this relief. It was like, oh, I'm, I'm not the only one. They're obviously in very successful senior positions where credibility was important. So I think admitting that they had these thoughts was quite a big thing.

Ali Abdaal 1:16:08 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:16:09 But once we do it, you've, you've opened the door then. You've opened the door and gone, "Okay, we have these thoughts and I'm not alone and it's okay to have them, but now we've got to cage the gremlin." So you've almost got to let the gremlin out in order to cage it. 'Cause when the gremlin's in your head, it's in control of you. It's stopping you speaking up in meetings. It's stopping you applying for positions. It's stopping you challenge someone if you don't agree with what they think. Once we have let the gremlin out, we can more consciously cage it, which means that I can speak up in that meeting. Now, it's not gonna be easy, I'm not gonna love it because it's a confidence gremlin for me, but I am now in control of my gremlin, and I can do things that I wouldn't have done before because that, the gremlin was driving my development, and now I'm in the driving seat, and the gremlin's still there 'cause it's very hard to kill it, but you're, you are more in control. And that's the journey we're trying to get people on is, what is your gremlin? Let's get it out, and then let's cage it for you. And there's, you know, there's set of activities that people can do that make that gremlin smaller and less significant. But I, I always say like, it's probably not gonna go away. It's sort of y- your gremlin's a part of you, and it's gonna p- it's gonna keep popping up, w- but we're just gonna get better at putting it back in its cage.

Ali Abdaal 1:17:22 What are these, um, common confidence gremlins?

Helen Tupper 1:17:25 Um, ooh, I have to remember off the top of my head now. Uh, so things like, um, a fear of not knowing enough, a fear of not being good enough, fear of not being liked, a fear of failure, uh, age-related confidence gremlin, the fear of presenting, the fear of senior people. That's an interesting one. Some people like just really fear senior people.

Ali Abdaal 1:17:41 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:17:41 Have a whole different identity when a senior person's in the room. Uh, one of the ones that I find funny, and I hate saying this 'cause confidence gremlins aren't that funny, but it's just, um, it's a fear of uncontrolled bodily reactions.

Ali Abdaal 1:17:51 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:17:51 Which sounds, which I, I find it funny 'cause it's a funny thing. But basically, some people have a confidence gremlin about how their body reacts when they are put under pressure. So they might blush, for example. You know, like they might go and blush on the neck, or they might perspire, or maybe their hands might shake a little bit in a situation, or maybe they might stutter. The, all that kind of stuff. Like it's, it's not particularly something they can control 'cause it's driven by the adrenaline that's created by that situation that they're in. But for them, the confidence gremlin is more what other people will think of them if they see that happening. And so because they're so worried about what other people will think if they see their neck going red or all this stuff, they don't put themselves in a position where that's, that outcome is possible, which means they don't put themselves in a position where they might be under pressure, which means they play it safe in their career. And so it becomes really, they're like, "Oh, I won't, I'm never gonna present on a stage because I blush and then people will think I don't know what I'm talking about." And it's, like the thing with confidence gremlins is often when you go, uh, and get some feedback from other people, they see that situation very differently.

Ali Abdaal 1:18:50 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:18:50 Like our confidence gremlins create a real filter that we look through that other people don't see, uh, in the same way. So they might say, you know, they might have gone the pre- they might do the presentation, they're blushing and they're thinking, "Oh, that was awful." And then they might go to a colleague and saying, you know, "What's the one thing you remember from my time when I was talking on the stage?" And the person might say, "Oh, um, like you were so clear and articulate," or, "Oh, I thought you looked like so smiley." And like everything that's played back is nothing to do with this blushing that for that person was like a beacon on a stage. Like they were this big red lighthouse, but no one else saw it. Um, and so often it's very useful to get somebody else's perspective on the situation where your gremlin really, really stood out to you because it helps you to realize that your, it, it is changing the way that you're seeing the world of work, um, and that other people are not seeing and experiencing what you are. And again, it's just about going, my gremlin is creating this. It's not, it's not the reality. It's my experience of it because my gremlin's in the driving seat. And it's those little moments of insight that help us realize that, oh, we can do something about this. This is a choice. This is something I control. This is not what's going on in everyone else's world.

Ali Abdaal 1:19:56 Let's move on to networks.

Helen Tupper 1:19:58 Yes.

Ali Abdaal 1:19:58 So what's the role of networks in Squiggly Career?

Helen Tupper 1:20:00 Uh, oh, networks are so important. They, they will help you go further. You'll get where you want to go faster because people can see opportunities you can't see for yourself. So in a Squiggly Career, we're talking about people d- developing in different directions, people having more choice over where they take their career. But so many of those doors will be opened by other people. And so we need the relationships with people who can see- ... positions and opportunities we can't see for ourselves. And so we've got to build that. And it isn't just about, it isn't just about new jobs, it is about learning. It, you know, the ... Often, you know, people think learning is going on a course, but so much of learning happens through conversation, and in fact, it lasts a lot longer. Like [laughs] when you look at like how we, you know, learning lasts in our brain, discussion with somebody else is significantly more effective than just watching a course. Mm. So our community is a source of opportunities. Our community is a source of learning. Is a, it's a source of feedback. Mm. Is an enabler for our growth. Um, but lots of people, I think, struggle with building a network- Yeah ... because they think about it as sort of people knowing people. How many people do I know? Mm. How many followers have I got? How many connections have I got on LinkedIn? Like, that that is like the sign of a good network. Um, and that's not that meaningful. That doesn't mean you've got a good network. You might be connected to a lot of people, but it doesn't mean you've got a good community around your career. A, a good community around your career is one that is active and effective. And so we think about it as people helping people. 'Cause if I'm helping you, that's active. Mm. Like, "Here's some help," [laughs] is an active thing. Mm. And you've been helped, it is effective. So when we think about people helping people as the basis for this- Mm ... it starts to get a lot better. And, and two, there's two big benefits of it as well. The first is people like helping people. Mm. Like, it's a human trait. Like, you get the helpers high. Yeah. It's, it's like proven that I, if I help you, it makes me feel good. Mm. Um, and so when people feel awkward about building relationships, starting with how you can help and what you've got to give, it j- it just feels nicer. Yeah. But then if you look at research from people like Adam Grant and his work on give and take, givers get more. So I actually get more back by helping other people. Mm. I get more in return anyway. Yep. And this becomes a really self-fulfilling way of building your network. So it starts people helping people and then thinking about, "And what have I got to give?" And you s- you do just have to trust, we kind of think of it as career karma, but you do just have to trust that the good stuff comes back. Like, you can't treat this as a transaction. Yeah. So I can't think, "Oh, Ali's writing a book. I'll help him with that 'cause then Ali can help me set something on YouTube." It's not, it's not ... I don't think we want to go into this in a transactional way. Yeah. You just think, "What do I know that can help you to grow?" Like, I literally go around thinking that. And when I say I literally go around, it- not to everybody that I meet in every minute of every day. [laughs] I think you do also need to be intentional about the relationship you're building for your career. Um, there is an element of randomness, which is like this weak tie stuff, so the, the kind of helping people who you don't have a big connection with at the moment 'cause you never know where that's gonna go. But there is also a lot of very intentional building of relationships with people that you think, "Well, I know that person could open that door for my development. So if I think about how I can help them, then perhaps in the future- Mm ... that might come back." But I'm not, I'm not trading, I'm not transacting with help. Mm. Nice. Uh, you

Helen Tupper 1:23:17 talk about the three Ds of networking. Do you know what, what, what those- Yeah, it's a while ago since I've done that in that book. Yeah. Yeah. We don't ... The, the, we talk about sort of distance, uh, donating, and a diversity. Um, so I think the, the reason these are important, uh ... So distance is some of your relationships are going to be very close to you. So, um, my business partner, she's, she's super, super close to me, super important in, in my, in my kind of, uh, my network. Um, she's very close to my context. But sometimes there are people that are further away from where you are that can have a different perspective and can have, um, you know, see things that you can't see in your world. Mm. So kinda distance is quite important. When you're looking at people, you don't basically want your network to be made up of people you see every day. Like, we want some kind of, some difference there. Um, donating, so we want to make sure that we are giving 'cause then we will kind of get lots back. Mm. Um, and then we want lots of difference. So you don't want an echo chamber of people just like you. Um, and when we're looking at sort of difference and diversity, there are four roles that we recommend people to build into their network. So, and I think everyone should have these. I don't think everyone's got them, but I think everyone, everyone should have them. So the first role would be a mentor, so somebody ... And this, this gets really over-complicated. It, I just think a mentor is somebody who has done what you would like to do. Yeah. Like, that, you could have one meeting. Like, you could be my mentor 'cause you've done something I want to do. We've had one meeting and we might, we might not meet again- Mm ... but you've still mentored me. It doesn't have to be this relationship that endures for the rest of yours and my career. So it's just someone who's done what you want to do and they give you advice. Easy. Um, second one is a peer. So a peer is someone who is going through what you are going through. Um, really helpful to accelerate your development because I can talk to you about what I'm doing, and you're doing it too, and you get it, and we can help each other. Like Sarah Ellis has been my peer for 20 years. Mm. I happen now to work with her, but my, I would not be where I am if it wasn't for her. Mm. She's accelerated my growth massively. Um, the next one is a sponsor. So a sponsor is someone who can advocate for you. So they have got access and influence over an area you're interested in. So you've gotta just think, "Well, what am I interested in? Am I, am I interested in writing a book? Am I interested in starting a podcast? Am I interested in that position and that team over there?" Yeah. Like, who's got access and influence? That person is a, is, it could be a brilliant sponsor for you. Um, you can't ask for sponsorship, so I can't just say, "Can you say br- brilliant things about me on that team over there?" Yeah. That sponsor needs to see me at my best. Yeah. So when we talked about strengths, we want that person to see our strengths, like really see us in action. They're more, much more likely to support us then. And then the fourth role is a coach. Now, uh, this doesn't have to be a professional coach. They are quite expensive to have a career coach. Not, definitely not accessible to everybody. The, I think it's better to think of this as someone who's got a coaching approach, which means they're very good at asking questions, like, and, and they're very good at just stopping talking to let you think. Yeah. And they might follow with another question, but what they are not doing is answering the question. That's for you to do. Yeah. And so if you know people who've got that ability, they're really, really helpful to have in your career community 'cause they'll help you think differently. And so as well as, like, the three Ds, I actually think those four roles ... Again, you know I said that we are evolving our thinking all the time. We wrote the book, well, the book was published in 2020, and since then we've trained, like- Almost 200,000 people, and in, it is almost like in each one of the conversations I have, I get some feedback on how effective tools are.

Ali Abdaal 1:26:35 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:26:35 And they're, they're kind of, we're always evolving them, we're always seeing what sticks, we're always seeing what's useful. And I think I'm finding that those four roles, and people really focusing on those, are w- uh, one of the most useful ways they can build their community. The principle people helping people, but the practical focusing on those four roles.

Ali Abdaal 1:26:52 Sick. Um, one thing people always ask is any tips for finding a mentor?

Helen Tupper 1:26:58 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:00 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:27:00 Don't ask for one. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:27:02 Yeah, I sometimes do get emails being like, "Well, will you be my mentor?"

Helen Tupper 1:27:04 Yeah, don't, don't-

Ali Abdaal 1:27:04 Where it's just like random people-

Helen Tupper 1:27:05 Yeah, don't-

Ali Abdaal 1:27:05 ... and it's like, I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

Helen Tupper 1:27:07 Yeah, yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:07 But, you know.

Helen Tupper 1:27:07 Don't, don't ask for one. And first of all, I think you need to work out what it is you want to learn. So, um, I might say one of the things that I want to learn about is, ah, commercial skills, or investing actually, is one of the things that I want to learn about. I think Amazing If are, um, my business, we're thinking about creating an investment fund so that other people who are doing stuff in the career space can, we can help them to grow.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:29 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:27:29 'Cause we, you know, more than us just operating the space, so we want to create an ecosystem of, of Squiggly Careers support. So um, but I've not done that before, I don't know how to do it. So for me, um, who's done what I would like to do, a, a good mentor would be somebody who's maybe built some kind of investment fund.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:44 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:27:44 And they've got some experience of doing that from scratch and all, everything that goes with it. So now I know what I want to learn-

Ali Abdaal 1:27:49 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:27:50 ... I can think about who. I might think about who do I know in my network that's got the knowledge that I need? And maybe, maybe I don't know anybody. Um, so I could go to somebody else that's in my network and say, "Do you know anyone who?"

Ali Abdaal 1:28:02 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:28:02 Like, we don't always know everyone we might need to know, so it's fine to ask someone. But you can be very specific. I'm not saying, "Can you introduce me to Ali?" I'm saying, "One of the things that I'd really like to learn is about investment funds. Do you know anyone who?" And so it's, it's, it's about the what before we-

Ali Abdaal 1:28:14 Mm

Helen Tupper 1:28:14 ... get to the person. 'Cause otherwise I think people just ask senior people to be their mentors 'cause it looks impressive. Uh, and we've gotta be specific to be genuine. And then when we're making that request for that person's time, I think the way that we articulate that request is really important. So this is where we get to the kind of the why I'm coming to you. So let's say you have got investment experience that I would benefit from. I might say, "One of the things that I'm really focused on is Amazing If's growth and impact, and one of the ways that I think we can do that is by investing in other people's businesses. I know that that is something that you have done before, and I think you've got a lot of knowledge that I can learn from. Would you be prepared to spend half an hour with me just sharing the insights that you got so that I can use that to inform the, the things that I'm planning to do?" And [laughs] just-

Ali Abdaal 1:28:58 [laughs] Like, "Hell yeah, of course."

Helen Tupper 1:29:00 If I'd just gone to you-

Ali Abdaal 1:29:01 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:29:01 ... and said, "Will you be my mentor?" Like, it's-

Ali Abdaal 1:29:04 That's like, uh-

Helen Tupper 1:29:05 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:29:05 ... a recurring commitment of my time.

Helen Tupper 1:29:06 Exactly.

Ali Abdaal 1:29:06 I don't have time. Like, come on. Like, who are you?

Helen Tupper 1:29:09 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:29:09 You know, that kind of thing.

Helen Tupper 1:29:09 Who are you? How much time do you think I actually have? Like-

Ali Abdaal 1:29:12 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:29:13 ... like there's no... It's too hard.

Ali Abdaal 1:29:15 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:29:15 We don't want to make it hard for people to help us. We have people helping people. I want to make it as easy as possible for you to help me. Now, you and I might have that meeting, and that might be all I need. Like, you might just be like, "Here's five things that I think you should look at. See you later." And I, and you still helped me, right? You've still been useful. Or you and I might have that meeting, and there might have been some kind of connection.

Ali Abdaal 1:29:35 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:29:36 You're like, "Oh, I f- find what you're doing is really interesting. I'd actually quite like to see how it goes and how it grows." And I'm like, "And you know loads more than I've got out of you in 30 minutes."

Ali Abdaal 1:29:43 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:29:43 And because we've got that sense of connection, that conversation is likely to continue. Now, this is really, really important for the mentee. The mentee needs to follow up. If, if the mentee wants that conversation to continue, so if I'm like, "I really want to see you again because there's a lot more that I could learn from you," it's really important that after that meeting, not same day, like, give it a few days, actually do something with what that person has shared, follow up with the mentor. So go back to the mentor, say, "Thank you so much for your time."

Ali Abdaal 1:30:11 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:30:11 "As a result of this conversation, these are the things that I've already done. Um, I really appreciate it, and I would love to continue the conversation if you're up for another meeting in the future." Um, because the mentor gets two boosts in their brain.

Ali Abdaal 1:30:24 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:30:24 The first boost is when they helped. Like, when you gave me help-

Ali Abdaal 1:30:27 Mm

Helen Tupper 1:30:27 ... you're like, "Oh, made me feel good."

Ali Abdaal 1:30:29 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:30:29 Help is high. People are helping people. Second boost is when you know the impact of your efforts.

Ali Abdaal 1:30:33 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:30:33 So when I play it back to you, you're like, "Oh, that was a good use of my time. She's done something with what I gave her," and therefore you're much more likely to give it again.

Ali Abdaal 1:30:43 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:30:43 So I think if we can approach mentoring a bit like that, it's, I think it's better for both parties.

Ali Abdaal 1:30:47 Yeah. And the word mentor is, like, never even used.

Helen Tupper 1:30:49 Yeah. Yes.

Ali Abdaal 1:30:50 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:30:50 I just, uh, help and knowledge-

Ali Abdaal 1:30:52 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:30:52 ... and like that's more where I get-

Ali Abdaal 1:30:53 Yeah, I think people underappre- un- underappreciate, because I, I feel like a limiting belief a lot of people have is, "Oh, why would th- why would this pers- this important person want to talk to me about the thing?" They don't realize that, like, if you approach it in the right way, then it's just, it's just nice to... E- everyone loves sharing what they've learned and for someone to be interested in that, and for that person especially to then take action on applying the thing. You're like, "Oh, sick."

Helen Tupper 1:31:15 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:31:15 And you might even become friends. [laughs]

Helen Tupper 1:31:16 And back to, back to confidence gremlins, maybe they've got a confidence gremlin about senior people that's getting in the way of that. So you might have to unpick the confidence gremlin and say, you know, they might, hey, um, the con- the limiting belief might be, "A senior person will never make time for me," um, and it might, the limit less belief is, um, "I've got some... I, I can help the senior person to see, um, I don't know, to see this as a different situation," or something.

Ali Abdaal 1:31:41 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:31:41 You know, like, I've, I've got some insight that they actually could help them-

Ali Abdaal 1:31:44 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:31:44 ... because they can't see this situation from the position that they're in. And so, uh, so much of this stuff is tied together. That's why there's five

Helen Tupper 1:31:51 skills. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:31:51 Love it. All right, skill number five.

Helen Tupper 1:31:53 Yes.

Ali Abdaal 1:31:53 Future possibilities.

Helen Tupper 1:31:54 Yes. What would you like to know?

Ali Abdaal 1:31:56 Um, what are, what do you mean by future possibilities? [laughs]

Helen Tupper 1:31:59 Oh, you were like, um-

Ali Abdaal 1:31:59 Like, just-

Helen Tupper 1:32:00 So what we are-

Ali Abdaal 1:32:01 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:32:01 ... trying to do here with this skill is to help people to be proactively curious about their career. And if I just go kind of right back to the ladder for a moment, what the ladder l- often leads to is people not being proactively curious. They're actually much more reactive about how they manage their development, and the most proactive thing they probably do is they might make a plan. They might make a plan. So that's, so I'll get a piece of paper, and I say, you know, "2023, I'm CEO of Amazing If. And 2024, I'm gonna do this, and in 2025, I'm gonna do this." And that's how I might plan a, a series of roles.

Ali Abdaal 1:32:32 Mm.

Helen Tupper 1:32:32 And then I often become quite blinkered by-

Ali Abdaal 1:32:36 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:32:36 ... what I've put in front of me. Um, and I don't tend to, um, explore around it.

Ali Abdaal 1:32:41 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:32:41 And then the problem is when those things don't materialize, I suddenly start to get a bit stuck or a bit frustrated by it. So we're trying to get away from the idea that we can plan all this stuff, and we're trying to get away from people fixing their future. And so possibilities are more about- ... career curiosity, and instead of fixing things, we're trying to be a bit more, bit more flexible. So that's, the skill here really is to be proactively curious about your career, and you can do that in, in, in lots of different ways. Um, what I often suggest as a starting place here is that people, um, go and explore for specific possibilities. Like, and, and I don't mean apply for jobs. That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying I want you to go and talk to people and get closer to these career possibilities. And so four that I'd recommend people have a look at, um, the obvious career possibility. So we, we all have a move that probably makes squiggly sense, like when I was at Microsoft, it was my manager's job. Like, that's what people thought I should do, and it seemed sensible to do.

Ali Abdaal 1:33:39 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:33:39 Um, now I run my company. The sensible move for me to make is actually to just stay in my job because it's growing. My company's growing, and so I will grow with it.

Ali Abdaal 1:33:46 Mm-hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:33:46 That's the, the sensible move for me to make. Um, the reason I want people to explore this one a little bit more is because a lot of people assume that because it's obvious, it's the right move for them to make.

Ali Abdaal 1:33:57 Mm-hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:33:57 So they take on their manager's job, or they go for that promotion because they've, they're currently a junior and they should be a senior and all those kind of things. Or I just stay in my role because it's obvious that it's growing and I should stay in it. Um, and actually, maybe that role doesn't actually need what you want to be known for, back to strengths.

Ali Abdaal 1:34:14 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:34:14 Maybe that role doesn't align with the things that really drive and motivate you, back to your values. So it'll be a good fit for you if it fits with your values and strengths. I- if it doesn't, then it might look good on paper, but it's not gonna be good for you. And so we only know that stuff when we, when we talk to people who are in those positions. Maybe we find time to spend time in those meetings. We're observing it from a slightly different perspective. You know, we're kind of looking out for things. So obvious one's a good place to start. Um, ambitious possibilities, definitely worth spending a bit of time getting curious about those. So those are the ones that are interesting but feel a bit of reach, out of reach right now. Sometimes that's 'cause it's more senior, like nothing wrong with wanting to be more senior. Um, sometimes it might be a sideways move, right? I might think, oh, I want to go do this thing over here. Feels a bit ambitious 'cause I've never done that before.

Ali Abdaal 1:34:59 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:34:59 Um, the issue with this possibility for lots of people is because it, it, it feels out of reach, they leave it for too long.

Ali Abdaal 1:35:06 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:35:06 They're like, "Oh, I'm not ready for that yet." Or, you know, "People are gonna think that I'm being too ambitious," you know? You have to ... I often hear that confidence gremlin, uh, coming up from people. But the longer you leave it, the further it will always feel away.

Ali Abdaal 1:35:16 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:35:16 So we want people to just go and have a conversation, make a connection, uh, get close to that context. That the closer you get, the sooner that squiggly career possibility-

Ali Abdaal 1:35:25 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:35:25 ... is going to become more of a reality. The longer you leave it, the further that one's always gonna feel away.

Ali Abdaal 1:35:29 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:35:29 Uh, third one are pivots. So pivot possibilities, these are fun. I like these ones. Um, so in s- in ladder-like careers, we often look through our progression through the lens of a job title. That gets really limiting 'cause it always has to sound senior and similar. Um, in squiggly careers, I want people to look at their future through the lens of their talents. So who needs what I want to be known for in my company, outside of my company, in this community, outside this community? And then you just start going. You kind of get beyond a job title. You start matching in a very different way based on talents.

Ali Abdaal 1:35:57 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:35:57 That's qu- I quite like that one. And then the fourth possibility is the dream one. Lots of people discount the dream, so this is like the unconstrained career choice. Like, we've all got constraints, how much we need to earn and where we need to live and what we need to know and all these kind of things. Some are very real. Um, but if you just took them away for a moment-

Ali Abdaal 1:36:12 Hmm

Helen Tupper 1:36:12 ... what would you do if you could do anything?

Ali Abdaal 1:36:14 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:36:14 Um, some people love that one. You love that. Like, you're nodding 'cause maybe 'cause some of your values, uh, align with it.

Ali Abdaal 1:36:18 Oh, yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:36:18 Some people get really scared by it.

Ali Abdaal 1:36:19 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:36:20 And they're like, "I don't know. [laughs] I don't know." Um, but I get people to sit with it a little bit and then think, well, well, what do you need to know? Like, let's not discount the dream. Like, why would, why would we discount the dream? Like, what do you need to know about it? Um, and, and who could you find that out from? And I always find with the dream, there was a quote that really helped me, to speak what you seek until you see what you said really helped me with the dream one. Like, speak what you seek till you see what you said. So if there's something that you want to do, it is very unlikely that it's gonna happen if it just exists in your head.

Ali Abdaal 1:36:48 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:36:49 But if you talk about it, if you say like, "This is what I might like to do in the future, this is what I'm interested in," it is much more likely that you're gonna see what you said because someone might know someone, or someone might be t- able to enable it.

Ali Abdaal 1:37:00 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:37:00 Or someone might just support your ambition in a different way. Um, and all you've got to do is have curious career conversations about different career possibilities. And sometimes you rule them in and you go, "That sounds amazing." And sometimes you rule them out, and that's totally fine. Um, but what happens in the course of those conversations is you start to get closer to the possibilities, and the people that are connected to them become more aware of you. And so it starts-

Ali Abdaal 1:37:25 Yeah

Helen Tupper 1:37:25 ... enabling, [laughs] and the possibilities become probabilities, which become positions for you in your future. That's, that's the journey we're trying to go on.

Ali Abdaal 1:37:33 Love it. Um, at the end of the book, you have, uh, a thing, like 100 pieces of career advice.

Helen Tupper 1:37:38 We do.

Ali Abdaal 1:37:39 Um, just to end with, like, what are ... Just, well, what are three of your favorites?

Helen Tupper 1:37:45 Three. Three. Three.

Ali Abdaal 1:37:46 Three of your favorite pieces of career advice.

Helen Tupper 1:37:47 Um, okay. I'll be ... I'll, I'll go mine, Sarah's, and Simon Sinek's. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:37:50 Nice.

Helen Tupper 1:37:50 Okay? So we'll go with those.

Ali Abdaal 1:37:52 Okay.

Helen Tupper 1:37:52 So mine, um, uh, is to run your own race. I have found that to be a really enabling piece of career advice for me that has unhooked me from comparison and given me a lot of confidence. That's really worked for me. Uh, Sarah's is to, uh, never live the same year twice.

Ali Abdaal 1:38:09 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:38:10 So she's very driven by variety, and, um, and that really keeps her ... Like, I think it just keeps her growing.

Ali Abdaal 1:38:17 Hmm.

Helen Tupper 1:38:17 Really keeps her growing. Um, and then Simon Sinek's that really stuck with me, um, 'cause he was on the podcast and I asked him for his advice, and he said to, um, "You don't have to have all the answers, and you don't have to pretend that you do." And I thought, oh, it's quite liberating to hear somebody who is, like, so successful sort of admit that they don't know everything, and they don't ... the pressure of having to know everything.

Ali Abdaal 1:38:42 Yeah.

Helen Tupper 1:38:42 And they don't have to pretend that they know everything. And I was like, oh, that's quite nice to just admit that we're all sort of work in progress and that we don't need to know everything. That t- that takes the pressure off. So they were three, but there's, there's so many in there, and I think, you know, you, you, you read in a quote what you need right now, you know? So I think, you know, when you go through quotes, some of them, they stand out to you at different moments because of what, what you need. So I think it's a chapter for me that I can go back to, and actually my favorite one has changed just because of what I need right now.

Ali Abdaal 1:39:09 Right. I think that's a great place to end this. Helen, thank you so much.

Helen Tupper 1:39:11 Thank you so much.

Ali Abdaal 1:39:12 All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode. So thanks for watching. Uh, do hit the subscribe button if you aren't already, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.