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Deep Dive with Ali AbdaalDeep Dive with Ali Abdaal

A Psychologists Guide To A Meaningful Life - Dr Julie Smith

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Ali AbdaalhostDr. Julie Smithguest
Jan 17, 20221h 31mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:30

    Intro

    1. AA

      Hey, friends. How's it going? Welcome back to the Deep Dive podcast. We are kicking off Season 2. It's very exciting. We've, uh, revamped our studio a little bit. So if you watched season one of the podcast and listened to it, you would've seen kinda the evolution of the studio over time. Anyway, without further ado, uh, let me introduce this podcast episode, which is with Dr. Julie Smith, who has written this fantastic book, Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before? Uh, Julie is a clinical psychologist who has over three million followers on TikTok and various other social media platforms, and she shares tips about maximizing our mental health and understanding our minds and our brains and how psychology works, and that cool stuff like that that helps us live healthier, happier, more productive lives. And in the conversation, we talk a little bit about her success as a creator. How did she go from this kinda having a very normal healthcare-y type job of being a clinical psychologist to then randomly deciding, "You know what? Let me start posting videos on TikTok"? We talked about kinda the feelings behind there, the cringe response, and, like, how she got over the fear, and how through that decision that she made about two years ago now she has managed to inspire millions of people and educate people about their mental health in a really cool way. And we also talk about some of the concepts that she talks about in the book, like things like motivation and fear and grief and self doubt and all these other psychological issues that plague us on a daily basis. And then towards the end of the podcast, we also talk about the idea of living a meaningful life. And that's a topic that I've been thinking a lot about, and I know Julie's thought about it a lot. And we talk about some of the psychological research that's gone into this idea of living a meaningful life. So yeah, hopefully you'll enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Uh, let's go for it. All right. So Julie, welcome to the podcast. How, how are you doing? [laughs]

    2. JS

      Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here, actually.

    3. AA

      Yeah. It sh- it should be interesting. So y- you're, you're a clinical psychologist.

  2. 1:30 – 11:31

    How Does Therapy Work?

    1. JS

      Yeah.

    2. AA

      What, what is a clinical psychologist? Like, what do you, what do you do? [laughs]

    3. JS

      Sure. So a clinical psychologist works in, uh, well, we can work in sort of brain injury and things like that, but I worked in mental health. So I was providing assessments and psychological therapies to, uh, you know, in all different kinds of services. So I worked in a service that was purely for Ministry of Defense for a while-

    4. AA

      Mm

    5. JS

      ... um, doing sort of trauma work and things with veterans. Um, I worked in inpatient and sort of, um, intensive care wards or in crisis teams in the community. So lots of different sort of mental health services offering, um, you know, either very intense support or l- longer psychological therapies.

    6. AA

      Okay. And so what, what, what sort of problems were you seeing on a daily basis?

    7. JS

      In the NHS, um, the sort of more severe and enduring end of, of those problems. W- uh, you know, all sorts of mental health problems. But once I worked in... I started a small private practice. It was just, um, by myself. Uh, and that was more, um, uh, people who were sort of functioning on a day-to-day basis, working, um, you know, that sort of thing, and, but, but struggling with maybe, you know, grief or, uh, burnout or, you know, all those sorts of things that, that happen, uh, more day to day.

    8. AA

      Okay. Um, w- so what's the difference between that and, like, what a therapist does? Or is it the same thing?

    9. JS

      So y- it's, it's a difference in, in training.

    10. AA

      Okay.

    11. JS

      So somebody might become a therapist after being, uh, maybe a mental health nurse, and then they might train in certain therapies, for example, or do a counseling course.

    12. AA

      Yeah.

    13. JS

      Whereas s- uh, with, with clinical psychology, you start off doing a psychology degree, and then you work in mental health for a few years and get your experience, do some research, that kind of thing, and then you train and you do your doctorate. So then it's purely in, you know, psychological therapies and assessment and those sorts of things.

    14. AA

      Oh.

    15. JS

      So it's a training difference really.

    16. AA

      So you have to have a PhD to be a clinical psychologist.

    17. JS

      Yeah.

    18. AA

      Damn.

    19. JS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    20. AA

      [laughs] Okay.

    21. JS

      Yeah, so you-

    22. AA

      Yeah

    23. JS

      ... you, you spend a, a few too many years-

    24. AA

      [laughs]

    25. JS

      ... studying and don- yeah, which you're used to, right? Um, but yeah, you, so you can train in sort of one or two therapies or as a counselor from any profession.

    26. AA

      Okay.

    27. JS

      But, um, but yeah, it's sort of purely psychological therapies.

    28. AA

      So is it... I, I, I, I know so little about psychological therapy. It's, it's, it's the sort of stuff that kind of we refer people to clinical psychologists but absolutely no idea what they do. So-

    29. JS

      Yeah

    30. AA

      ... uh, apologies if this seems like a dumb question, but is it that, like, you train in, like, like, 10 different therapies, and then you kinda pick the one that's appropriate for the patient? Like, how, how does-

  3. 11:31 – 14:48

    How To Grow On TikTok

    1. AA

      practice as a clinical psychologist to three million followers on TikTok? What, what was the story? [laughs]

    2. JS

      Sure. So, um, I, yeah, I, I, once I had three children, I realized I couldn't do it all well. You know, I was doing part-time NHS, part-time private, and, and I just couldn't manage it all. So I thought I could, you know, see a few sort of private clients during school hours and manage it really nicely around the children. So I sort of moved into that, that private work. And then during that time, I had all these people coming along, and a, a significant portion of some therapies is quite educational. So you teach people a bit about how their mind works, um, how they can influence their mood and emotions and energy levels or relationships and how they can work out what cycles they're stuck in and that sort of thing. And a lot of people, I found, once they had that education- They were raring to go. They were empowered by it. And, and there was a lot of... You know, that's why the title of the book is Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before?, because so many people were saying certain versions of that in terms of, "You know, how did I not learn this at school? It's not rocket science, but it's really made a difference to my life." Um, so yeah, it was... It, you know, all of these people were coming along, finding that stuff really helpful, and then I was sort of harping onto my poor husband saying, "How is this not available?"

    3. AA

      Mm.

    4. JS

      You know, "Why do people have to pay to come and see me to find out?" Um, 'cause it's not therapy skills, it's life skills. It's stuff we could all use, and stuff that I use to, um, stay well as well. So it, you know, it's, um... I, I was sort of talking about it to him, and then he said, "Well, okay. Make it available. Do it. You know, put a video on YouTube or something." And, um, and so we did. We started to kind of make a couple of really cringey videos where I was sort of, [laughs] you know, trying to be educational. And, um, and at the same time, my husband discovered TikTok, and we were instantly addicted to it. It was really fun, and there was lots of dancing and comedy.

    5. AA

      Yeah.

    6. JS

      And, um, and he said, "Well, you know, try and say something in 60 seconds and put it on there." And my initial thought was, "No, I will get trolled out of there for sure."

    7. AA

      Mm.

    8. JS

      Um, but anyway, long story short is we had a go with the idea that at any point we can delete this-

    9. AA

      Yeah

    10. JS

      ... and just forget it ever happened. Um, but very, very quickly, within a couple of weeks I think it was, it just started to kind of blow up. And, um, that was November 2019, so it was a couple of months before the lockdowns started to happen and stuff. My whole... The whole account was set up with the idea of being useful and putting some value in there. I, I didn't really have any interest of being a public person in any way or that sort of thing. So my idea was every video has to have some sort of value to it at some point that, that could be shared. And the fact that people clicked follow on an account that was purely about mental health education says a lot about what people need to hear and, and what people are looking for, I think. Um, and, and the stuff that's just not, uh, you know, as readily available as-

    11. AA

      Yeah

    12. JS

      ... or, or perhaps there is lots of information out there, but there's also lots of misinformation out there, so people wanted to know that what, what they were hearing was, you know, valid or research-based and stuff like that.

    13. AA

      Yeah.

    14. JS

      So yeah, it started to kind of blow up very quickly.

    15. AA

      I wo- I wonder if we can just sort of z- zoom into the, that, that moment when you decided that you're gonna get over the cringe and make that YouTube video and make that TikTok. What, what was that experience like?

    16. JS

      Yeah. Do you know, it, it was okay.

  4. 14:48 – 24:50

    Creating Content For The First Time

    1. JS

      I, I hated the sound of my own voice, so wh- when I would sort of listen back to them and stuff, um, some of them I just sort of handed over to my husband, Matt, and said, "Just press the button-

    2. AA

      [laughs]

    3. JS

      ... and I'll sort of look this way," and then, you know, just didn't ever want to see it again. And pro- but probably that's one of my methods, actually, is just don't watch it back [laughs] too much.

    4. AA

      Mm.

    5. JS

      Because then you just become critical and you want to make the perfect video. And actually, it's better off just saying, "I, I know it's not perfect. I might not look or sound perfect, but it's a useful message, so put it out there just in case." And then what you do is you get back these messages from people saying, "Well, thank you. That really changed my day," or, "I'm using this with my son or daughter and it's really helping. Thank you." And then you think, "Well, yeah, it's okay to put a non-perfect video out there-

    6. AA

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... if you're being valuable to someone." So that's sort of allowed me to, um, be imperfect.

    8. AA

      Yeah.

    9. JS

      Yeah.

    10. AA

      And I... Th- that, that kind of reminds me of the stuff you talk about in motivation in, in the book, I think it's maybe chapter two, where you say that it's really about, like, those small steps and getting that feedback, and then that sustains the motivation.

    11. JS

      Yeah.

    12. AA

      And was that... I guess that kind of played into what kept you going in the early days?

    13. JS

      Yeah. And, and i- in the book, I talk about that sort of need for intrinsic motivation, you know, that sort of... We don't need, uh, you know, uh, they always give stickers to kids now, don't they-

    14. AA

      Mm

    15. JS

      ... at schools and stuff like that. Uh, you know, we don't need a sticker or a trophy along the way. We need, uh, something inside of us that says, "Yes, you're on the right track. You're doing the right thing."

    16. AA

      Mm.

    17. JS

      And for me, it was, it was that feeling that I get from feedback from real people saying, "I used it and it was helpful to me. Thank you." Um, and then there's that realization of, you know, I can sit in one room with one person at a time and try and be helpful, but when you can get, you know, 100 messages back in a day that say, "Thank you, that was really helpful," then wow, you know, what an opportunity to reach all those people.

    18. AA

      Were you worried at all about your professional standing [laughs] when you started?

    19. JS

      Yeah.

    20. AA

      But, like, yeah.

    21. JS

      Oh.

    22. AA

      What, what was that like? That, that's a thing that all doctors worry about as well.

    23. JS

      Yes.

    24. AA

      So I, I, I guess it's the same for you.

    25. JS

      Yeah, it's something I can ask you as well, actually.

    26. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    27. JS

      Because that was probably the main thing in my mind was, "Oh, what if someone I used to work with sees this, and what will they think of me?" And, and, and that sort of thing. And, and, you know, somehow I managed to just do it anyway. But, um, a- and actually the feedback I've got from, from old colleagues and stuff has been really positive. You know, ob- sort of colleagues who are, um, you know, GPs and stuff like that who say that they, you know, mention the channel when people are struggling. And I think, gosh, that, that's, that's the compliment you want, isn't it, is when people are willing to share your stuff because they see it as valuable too.

    28. AA

      Yeah.

    29. JS

      So, um, that's a sort of seal of approval. But there is just this moment of almost free fall, isn't it, where you think, "Ah, I'm gonna do it anyway and see what happens-

    30. AA

      Yeah

  5. 24:50 – 42:32

    How To Live A Meaningful Life Using Science

    1. AA

      s- psychology, res- scientific take on what, how, how do we live a meaningful life?

    2. JS

      Sure. So a lot of the stuff from that section is taken from... I really like using, um, acceptance and commitment therapy, ACT, um, which has a whole, um, sort of part of that therapy is around, uh, understanding your own values and what gives you meaning and purpose in life.

    3. AA

      Mm.

    4. JS

      Um, and, uh, yeah, so, so I've devoted a whole section to it 'cause I think it's so, so important. And, and I also think it's important to not just do it once, but to keep doing sort of little values check-ins where you, you just step back, get a bit of a bird's-eye view on what's going on in your life at this point.

    5. AA

      Mm.

    6. JS

      What matters most to you at this point, 'cause it changes, right? You know, what was important to you at 21 might not be the same things that are important to you at 31.

    7. AA

      Mm.

    8. JS

      So your values change as you go along. But the way, um, that we set it out in therapy is, is that a value is like a path that you follow your whole life. There is no end to it, but you just, you value that path, so you want to stay close to it as much as you can.

    9. AA

      Right.

    10. JS

      So a goal is something you, once you've done it, you, you've done it.

    11. AA

      Mm.

    12. JS

      It's finished. So your, your goal might be to do a marathon, but your value might be to stay fit and healthy. Uh, and so the marathon becomes one of many possible goals along the way, but your value is to, to continue to be fit and healthy along the way.

    13. AA

      Mm.

    14. JS

      So that's the path.

    15. AA

      Yeah.

    16. JS

      Is fit and health, you know, fitness and health.

    17. AA

      Yeah.

    18. JS

      Um, and then there can be lots of hur- lots of hurdles and lots of goals along the way. Um, uh, but at times, life steers you away from those.

    19. AA

      Mm.

    20. JS

      So, you know, you might, life happens and maybe, uh, your job is very intense or you have children or whatever it is, and it might steer you away from that path. And so that's why I think it's so important to do these regular sort of values check-ins where you go, "Oh, I'm not feeling quite right." And actually, lots of people come to therapy with that sort of sense of I'm not really sure what the problem is.

    21. AA

      Mm.

    22. JS

      I just, I'm feeling a bit lost or a bit, you know, life feels a bit meaningless at the moment. And often that's because people have lost touch with what's most important to them, or life has steered them away from things that matter to them.

    23. AA

      Mm.

    24. JS

      And so just getting clarity on what does matter to me, what is the most important thing or things in my life at the moment, and what kind of person do I want to be in those areas of my life, um, which then allows you to set goals based on the life that you want to have or the person that you want to be.

    25. AA

      Yeah. How, how do you go about figuring out your values?

    26. JS

      So there are lots of kind of little exercises you do, you can do. Uh, sometimes you can literally just grab a piece of paper, um, separate it into little boxes, and you might have boxes for, um, family life or, um, lifelong learning-

    27. AA

      Mm

    28. JS

      ... or, um, health or creativity. So you can kind of fill those boxes with the different aspects of your life and then in each box kind of ask yourself, "What kind of person do I want to be in this area of my life?" So maybe it's family relationships.

    29. AA

      Mm.

    30. JS

      What kind of son do I want to be to my mom? What kind of, or my dad-

  6. 42:32 – 44:45

    How To Manage Relationships

    1. JS

      within, and the meaningful life, because you can't, you can't really separate the two. Um, we're social beings, so, you know, relationships are our meaning really.

    2. AA

      What, what can we do to kinda live more in alignment with that? I, I mean, 'cause, 'cause I, I guess 'cause at least speaking for me, I know intellectually that relationships are the most important thing in life, and yet if I think about, like, all the podcasts I listen to, 98 of them are ab- are about business, and two of them are about health and relationships. And if I think about how I spend my time, like, 16 hours a day is spent here doing, like, the YouTube stuff, and, like, one or two hours is spent hanging out with friends. Like, if, if that makes sense.

    3. JS

      Yeah.

    4. AA

      Like, yeah, that, so that I, I know intellectually that actually relationships are important, and yet I didn't call my mom this morning. Like [laughs]

    5. JS

      Yeah, yeah. And, and that in itself is just interesting, isn't it?

    6. AA

      Yeah.

    7. JS

      When we look... 'Cause I think there's perhaps a tendency to, um, when, when we, when we look at that, to then be self-critical-

    8. AA

      Mm

    9. JS

      ... and think, "Oh, I'm not getting it right," or, you know, "I need to do..." And, and actually it has to come with, that sort of reflection has to come with some compassion, that, um, we are set up in a world that, that dictates that we go to work for a certain number of hours a day-

    10. AA

      Mm

    11. JS

      ... and, and that, you know, certain days a week, and all these kind of things. And, and we are wrapped up in that.

    12. AA

      Mm.

    13. JS

      Um, but it, what an amazing privilege to be able to sort of get a bird's-eye view on it, look at it, and say, "I'd like it to be a bit different."

    14. AA

      Mm.

    15. JS

      "Could, is it possible in, with my life situation at the moment, to make it any different-

    16. AA

      Mm

    17. JS

      ... or to tip the balance?" And the reality is for a lot of people, they have to be at work for a certain number of hours a day or they-

    18. AA

      Yeah

    19. JS

      ... you know, all those kind of things, and life is really tough. Um, but when we get into a position where we have choices, how empowering to be able to use them and to say, "Do you know what? You know, I'm Ali Abdaal now. I can take [laughs] a, a Friday afternoon off-

    20. AA

      [laughs] I can do what I want, yeah

    21. JS

      ... and go, go out, and that would be great," you know?

    22. AA

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      Um, but the, the pressure that is a cultural pressure, I think, isn't it, to, you know, this sort of burnout badge of honor type thing-

    24. AA

      Mm

    25. JS

      ... that I, I work, work, work, and, and, you know, earn more, be more, buy more, all of that kinda stuff that inevitably leads to, you know, lots of people, um, queuing up outside the therapy room door.

    26. AA

      Yeah. Yeah, that, that's a question I, I sometimes ask myself, like, "What is the point of all of this more?"

  7. 44:45 – 47:40

    Changing Direction In Life

    1. AA

      Um, kind of moving to London, getting this ridiculously expensive studio, building a team to fricking 17 people now. It's, so it, it all feel... I, I sometimes look back and I think, "Huh, how'd, how the hell did we get here?"

    2. JS

      [laughs]

    3. AA

      But then at the same time I think, "Okay, but this, like, genuinely feels fun." Like, if I, if I think of how I'd wanna spend the next 12 months of my life, I c- I could kinda do whatever. I could, like, travel the world and stuff, but it genuinely does feel more stu- m- more fun to be like, "Actually, actually, I just wanna come into the studio every day and just hang out with the team and, like, make cool, make cool videos." And maybe that preference will change further down the line.

    4. JS

      Yeah.

    5. AA

      But right now that's the thing that feels the most fun, and so let's just give it a go and see what happens.

    6. JS

      Yeah, absolutely. And it's giving you, you know, opportunities, and great experiences, and you're meeting different people. And, and so if you value those things at that point, and it feels that it's giving you joy-

    7. AA

      Mm

    8. JS

      ... and some meaning and some purpose, and then why not? You know-

    9. AA

      Mm

    10. JS

      ... it's okay to say, "This doesn't have to be forever."

    11. AA

      Yeah.

    12. JS

      "I can do this while it feels meaningful."

    13. AA

      Yeah.

    14. JS

      And then it's okay at some point if my values or meaning change, you know.

    15. AA

      Mm.

    16. JS

      It's, um, it's kinda taking each chapter-

    17. AA

      Yeah

    18. JS

      ... for what it is.

    19. AA

      Yeah, I really like that. Like, most decisions are, I mean, other than, like, marriage and kids and stuff, are, are kinda temporary. Um-

    20. JS

      Yeah

    21. AA

      ... like, you know, this is a one-year lease on this building, so it's a one-year experiment.

    22. JS

      Yeah.

    23. AA

      And then we'll see what happens.

    24. JS

      Yeah.

    25. AA

      Um, it, it, it, it kinda takes the pressure off it a little bit, um, that the way that the, the thing that we're doing now is not the thing that we actually have to do forever.

    26. JS

      Yeah.

    27. AA

      It's just the thing that we're doing for now.

    28. JS

      Yeah.

    29. AA

      And we're just checking with ourselves, and I find that, you know, over the la- over the last couple of weeks I've been finding that, mm, something doesn't feel quite right, and I look at my calendar and I'm like, "Well, it's full of all of these meetings and stuff, and really I wanna carve out more time for writing. All right, cool. I, I, I just can do that. So no more meetings before 12:00 PM. All right, team, s-sort the rest out." And now I have writing time in the morning, and it's great.

    30. JS

      Nice.

  8. 47:40 – 55:41

    Writing A Book For The First Time

    1. JS

      that, that I wanted to give more details and more, you know, how-tos to make it as useful as it could be for people. Um, but it wasn't until I got approached by, um, my literary agent, um, Abigail Bergstrom, who was really, really helpful. You, you know, I was having all these sort of publishers get in contact, um, with ideas and things they wanted to do, um, but she really helped by saying, "Write the book that you want to write."

    2. AA

      Mm.

    3. JS

      "So, you know, put together a proposal for the thing that you want to do, and then we'll take it from there and, and, you know, send that out to people." So, and then, uh, and then signed a deal with Penguin, which was just really, really exciting. Um, and it was writing through, through lockdown.

    4. AA

      Yeah.

    5. JS

      So my poor husband was trying to homeschool three children while I was locked upstairs trying to get the, you know, 80,000 words out.

    6. AA

      Mm.

    7. JS

      Which, again, was a huge rollercoaster emotionally because you, you're taken completely out of your comfort zone or the, the place where you feel like you know what you're doing.

    8. AA

      Mm.

    9. JS

      And started, um, I, I got a few book recommendations from your videos actually about writing-

    10. AA

      [laughs]

    11. JS

      ... and things like that. Um, and, you know, I just started reading a lot about writing-

    12. AA

      Yeah

    13. JS

      ... thinking, "Oh my gosh, I know the psychology, but how do I put it across in the right way?" And, um, so that was, that was a real experience was, was- How do I write, you know? Um, that I'm- I've- I've got this- this- this deal because I've got this audience

    14. AA

      Mm

    15. JS

      ... how do I make it really, really good, um, so that people can come be engaged by it and stuff?

    16. AA

      How did you find your literary agent?

    17. JS

      Really, really helpful.

    18. AA

      Oh, like how d-

    19. JS

      So helpful

    20. AA

      ... how- how did you find her? [laughs]

    21. JS

      Oh, how did I find her?

    22. AA

      Yeah.

    23. JS

      So, um, I was approached by Gleam Futures, who are-

    24. AA

      Oh, I've heard that, yeah

    25. JS

      ... a management company.

    26. AA

      Yeah.

    27. JS

      Yeah. So, um, I work with them and they, um, sort of help me with the different brand deals and events and things-

    28. AA

      Okay

    29. JS

      ... that I'll join. And, um, she was the head of publish- their in-house publishing.

    30. AA

      Mm.

  9. 55:41 – 1:05:05

    How To Understand Motivation

    1. AA

      How, how did you go about writing the book even on days where you didn't feel like it?

    2. JS

      There were lots of days when I probably didn't feel like it, um, especially when I was missing out on family time.

    3. AA

      Mm.

    4. JS

      Um, 'cause, you know, my, my job was originally set up to be so that I could be a mum for a lot of the time, and suddenly I had this deadline and I had to be on this book all the time.

    5. AA

      Yeah.

    6. JS

      Um, so there were a f- couple of weekends and stuff where I, you know, the kids are going out and to the park with my husband and stuff, and I was at home feeling kind of sorry for myself, and those are the times when I really didn't want to do it. Y- you then it's using those old therapy skills of sort of, um, opposite action and stuff like that.

    7. AA

      Okay.

    8. JS

      So this, so this idea that you can, um... Well, I, I saw your, your video on that sort of activation, uh-

    9. AA

      [laughs]

    10. JS

      ... energy and stuff like that.

    11. AA

      Yeah, the pain barrier. [laughs]

    12. JS

      And I thought... Yeah.

    13. AA

      And it's, it's-

    14. JS

      And it's really, it's really similar to, um, something we use in a therapy called DBT, dialectical behavior therapy, where we talk about opposite action.

    15. AA

      Yeah.

    16. JS

      So the idea that y- you can have an urge to do something, and we get a choice whether we act opposite to that urge-

    17. AA

      Yeah

    18. JS

      ... or whether we go with it.

    19. AA

      Yeah.

    20. JS

      And so, and you can kind of practice. I mean, we used to actually, without knowing, we used to practice as kids with, like, um, Polo Mints and stuff-

    21. AA

      Yeah

    22. JS

      ... where you would have to hold a Polo in your mouth and not crunch it.

    23. AA

      Mm.

    24. JS

      And y- and the urge to crunch and, and bite down-

    25. AA

      Yeah

    26. JS

      ... on the mint was really intense. But then y- actually, when you do that, you notice that you can have an urge to do something, and you don't have to go with it.

    27. AA

      Mm.

    28. JS

      You can do something else. You can act opposite to it. And so you can kind of practice with sort of simple things like that just to build up that self-awareness. But, you know, the urge might be to go down and make a third cup of tea in the last, you know, 45 minutes.

    29. AA

      Yeah.

    30. JS

      What's really going on here is I'm, I don't wanna type-

  10. 1:05:05 – 1:08:15

    Using Therapy Techniques

    1. JS

      they'll ask sort of very open questions. Um, you know, the, the yes or no answers are not what you want in therapy, so they'll ask very open questions that require more than a yes or no answer-

    2. AA

      Okay

    3. JS

      ... to get someone talking. Um, they will just zip it sometimes-

    4. AA

      Mm

    5. JS

      ... and just be completely... You know, I've had whole-

    6. AA

      Love it

    7. JS

      ... therapy sessions where I've barely said a word because someone is just going for it, and they're, they've got a flow and they know exactly what they wanna work out and, and say and things like that. But there are other times when you actually do a lot of talking.

    8. AA

      Mm.

    9. JS

      And there is a lot of education. And, and so it's, um, uh, perhaps a skill of kind of being able to take what someone is saying and, and get it out on paper. So you're formulating. And, uh, you are taking a, a sp- maybe a specific time or event, a sort of he said, she said, or I did this then I did that-

    10. AA

      Yeah

    11. JS

      ... and you plot out the process. And actually, that might not be a one-off event because it might be a pattern of behavior that they're stuck in, and then you kind of get this bird's-eye view. And, and then that person can kinda see, "Oh, right-

    12. AA

      Yeah

    13. JS

      ... that's what I'm doing," or, "That's why I'm doing it." And, and, you know, and then, and, and there's also this kind of it's guided discovery. So you're not advising someone, "Do this," or-

    14. AA

      Yeah

    15. JS

      ... "Don't do that." You, uh, guide and help them to come to a point where they discover it for themselves-

    16. AA

      Mm

    17. JS

      ... and then they work out what they want to do based on their values or, um, the life they want to create.

    18. AA

      One, one sort of pattern I've noticed is that Americans who write books are much more open with being prescriptive than Brits who write books. Um, every British author I've ever spoken to feels, feels a bit of a cringe about, like, giving advice.

    19. JS

      Yeah.

    20. AA

      Whereas the Americans seem to be, like, full-on confident about it. Um-

    21. JS

      [laughs]

    22. AA

      ... I guess given that your book is a self-help book [laughs] how, how, how did you feel about, like, giving advice? [laughs]

    23. JS

      Yeah. It's, it's hard, isn't it, as well? Because like you say, you know, a lot of therapy isn't about giving advice.

    24. AA

      Yeah.

    25. JS

      It's about saying, "Here's what the research says."

    26. AA

      Mm.

    27. JS

      "How might you use that?" And, and then helping that sort of, you know, it being guided discovery. And that's why there are so many journal prompts in there, and, and activities and exercises that people can work through, um, because it's individual. You know, you can give a sort of blanket piece of advice, and, and it won't work for everyone.

    28. AA

      Yeah.

    29. JS

      Um, and it's, it's interesting 'cause we often talk a lot about, I hear about these sort, you know, like, um, sort of wellness influencers and stuff saying you, you, oops, that say, you know, "You must get up at 5:00 AM, and you must meditate for an hour, then work out, and then, you know, uh, have a decent, you know-

    30. AA

      Yeah

  11. 1:08:15 – 1:12:50

    Should We Care What People Think?

    1. JS

      we are, you know, we are social beings, aren't, aren't we? And, um, um, however much you tell someone not to care what other people think, they are built to care.

    2. AA

      Mm.

    3. JS

      Because... And if you didn't, you wouldn't be a very social person, right? You know, if, if, if I was in here and not caring what anybody else thought of me, I could be really antisocial-

    4. AA

      Mm

    5. JS

      ... and, and destroy relationships that I could have otherwise made. And, um, and then I'm not going to fare very well if I'm not able to maintain relationships. And so there are opinions that matter. Some matter more than others, and I think it's all about that, is working out, um, whose opinions do I value?

    6. AA

      Yeah.

    7. JS

      Um, and, and how can I then manage the, the discomfort if those people whose opinions I value disapprove of me-

    8. AA

      Mm

    9. JS

      ... or criticize me in some way? Um, and then there's a whole set of skills around, you know, managing criticism and things like that, and recognizing that it, it comes from some- you know, another person-

    10. AA

      Yeah

    11. JS

      ... and it's personal to them.

    12. AA

      Do you, do you get any, any hate on the internet? Is that something that you've got?

    13. JS

      Oh, I feel like I need to touch wood now.

    14. AA

      [laughs]

    15. JS

      Because so far, so, so far so good. I mean, it's not been... Uh, there, there's, you get the odd weird comment that-

    16. AA

      Yeah

    17. JS

      ... that feels sort of strange, but um, not, not a huge amount. Um, not anything that has caused me to think, "I don't wanna do this."

    18. AA

      Yeah.

    19. JS

      Um, and I d- I don't really know why. Maybe it's luck. Um, maybe it's also because it's quite a niche, um, subject-

    20. AA

      Mm

    21. JS

      ... that people are coming and sort of hitting follow because they, they want that kind of information.

    22. AA

      Mm.

    23. JS

      Um, so yeah, it's been a really lovely kinda community actually. And, and even people that kinda get into the comments support each other-

    24. AA

      Yeah

    25. JS

      ... and, and come up with different bits of advice for each other and help and stuff, which is really, really nice. Um, but it, it does make you vulnerable, doesn't it, putting content out there? And I, I... You know, hats off to anyone who has the courage to, to make some form of content and put it out into the world, because it's not, it's not easy. It makes you feel vulnerable and anxious, and, um, it's, it doesn't feel safe to do it sometimes-

    26. AA

      Mm

    27. JS

      ... you know?

    28. AA

      Yeah. Were you, were you ever concerned about what your friends and family would think when you started being a TikToker?

    29. JS

      Oh, hugely. So I think I probably had about, about 100,000 followers on TikTok before I even told my family or anyone that I was do... And I don't think I even told them. I think my husband told them [laughs] at Christmas one year, um, that we were doing this thing. And, um, and I just hated telling anyone I knew. I hate... I didn't want to, you know, tell other professionals that I knew because of the sort of professional judgment side. Um, but actually, there's loads of therapists and psychologists now that are all online-

    30. AA

      Mm

  12. 1:12:50 – 1:31:36

    Rapid Fire Questions + Q&A

    1. AA

      I'd, I'd, I'd love for you to elaborate. So if we start with a quick-fire question, so, um, what, what advice would you give to your younger self?

    2. JS

      Uh, just keep doing everything you normally do because, um, yes, I made mistakes along the way, and I did things that I would do differently now, but they got me to where I am now. So I think there's a recognition at this point in my life that you can make... You have to make your mistakes along the way. You have to, because you then learn from them, and they make you who you are. And, and you know, y- I think you learn about how strong you can be by going through really tough times.

    3. AA

      Nice.

    4. JS

      So, um, yeah, I think I... It would be just, just keep going. It turns out all right.

    5. AA

      [laughs]

    6. JS

      [laughs]

    7. AA

      Uh, next question.

    8. JS

      Yeah.

    9. AA

      Who is, who would you say has had the biggest influence on your career?

    10. JS

      Part of me wants to say, um, my parents because they... I was the first person in my family to go to university, and, you know, they, they didn't have huge amounts of money, so they worked really, really hard to give me that opportunity so that I could go. Um, but I guess since that time, since sort of qualifying and, um- You know, being a psychologist, uh, probably my husband actually because he, he sort of, you know, said, "Well, why don't you try private practice, and why don't you try and make a YouTube video, and why don't you try to go [laughs] on TikTok," and-

    11. AA

      [laughs]

    12. JS

      ... you know, all of those things. So actually, um, where I probably would have kept myself contained and, and done, you know, a single thing-

    13. AA

      Mm

    14. JS

      ... he's always gone, "Go on, try that, try that, try that," and here we are. [laughs]

    15. AA

      Nice. [laughs] Um, what is one tip for someone looking for success?

    16. JS

      Uh, I would say it depends what success you're looking for.

    17. AA

      Ooh, love it.

    18. JS

      Because-

    19. AA

      That's good. [laughs]

    20. JS

      Yeah, the idea of success is different for different people.

    21. AA

      Yeah. Nice. And I suppose that comes back to sort of living in alignment with your values.

    22. JS

      Yeah, yeah. I would say, yeah, maybe, maybe then the tip is, you know, work out what success means to you a- and then start doing research on how to live in line with that.

    23. AA

      Um, what does the first and last hour of your day look like?

    24. JS

      Oh, gosh. Um, so the first hour of the day is, um, is getting everybody, myself and three small children, out of the house-

    25. AA

      Oh

    26. JS

      ... in time for school, which starts at 8:30. So, um, lots of rushing around, grabbing cereal bowls, getting people dressed, ev- brushing everyone's teeth, and all that. You know, just this constant, um, go, go, go, go, go-

    27. AA

      Mm

    28. JS

      ... in the morning. Um, so no time for those sort of idyllic, you know, yoga sessions or meditation-

    29. AA

      Yeah

    30. JS

      ... and all that.

Episode duration: 1:31:37

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