Skip to content

By playing, you agree to uListen's Terms and Privacy Policy and YouTube's Terms of Service.

Deep Dive with Ali AbdaalDeep Dive with Ali Abdaal

Caspar Lee: How He Built A 10+ Million YouTube Following In His 20s (And Why He Quit)

👉 [Free live masterclass, Sat 21 Nov] Launch your online business by Christmas and land your first high-paying client by January →

Caspar LeeguestAli Abdaalhost
Oct 27, 20221h 41mWatch on YouTube

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

Great conversations run long. Their best ideas don't have to.

uListen is free on iPhone, iPad, Android, Chrome, and Claude.

See how

Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:51

    Intro

    1. CL

      I'm not asked on that many podcasts, but I've been asked on probably 10 podcasts this year. I've said no to every single one because I was like, what if I have a panic attack? The social media superstar is Caspar Lee.

    2. AA

      Lee.

    3. CL

      Lee.

    4. AA

      Caspar is one of the OG YouTubers. He became an internet sensation.

    5. CL

      It was kind of in the very beginning, I feel like creators were kind of misfits.

    6. AA

      He started the company Influencer. He's also started his own management agency with Joe Sugg, who you also might be familiar with. He does a bunch of philanthropic things as well, and he's also recently started a venture capitalist fund.

    7. CL

      A successful business is 60% the right market, 30% the team, and 10%, like, the unique idea. But everyone's like, "Just think, come up with the perfect idea." It's not-- You can't predict the future.

    8. AA

      Now, this conversation is interesting because Caspar is, like, one of the OG gang from the, from, like, the olden days of YouTube. And so we talk a lot about what that experience was like, what it was like growing up in South Africa and watching all these YouTubers, and then being able to collaborate with them, and then kind of interviewing people like Ed Sheeran and this sort of immensely, like, jet-set lifestyle that Caspar was leading back in the day.

    9. CL

      I was, like, 19, 20, and, like, people would say, "What are you doing?" Or my grandmother would be like, "What are you, what are you doing with your life?" And you're like, "Well, I'm a YouTuber. This is my job." And they're like, "Well, what's your real job?" And to be honest, the, the, the time my grandmother actually understood it was a job worth pursuing was when I met the Queen for the first time.

    10. AA

      We talk about some of the downsides of fame and attention, and some of the issues with burnout that YouTubers and other creators kind of have amongst other people. And we talk about his evolution from kind of entertainment, vloggy-type YouTuber to kind of business tycoon, investor, entrepreneur, philanthropist t- type chap, and what that arc was like. So I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I did. Just a very quick thing before we get started. If you have not yet subscribed to the podcast, either on YouTube or on your favorite podcast app of choice, then please do. It really helps us out a lot. Caspar-

    11. CL

      Use that.

    12. AA

      [laughs]

    13. CL

      Use that content.

    14. AA

      Thank you

  2. 1:51 – 9:28

    What was YouTube like in the early days?

    1. AA

      so much for coming on.

    2. CL

      Thank you.

    3. AA

      This is gonna be interesting. Um, you are, like, one of the OG YouTubers. You started in 2010 and made videos all the way through to 2019, and you're like my age, so you would've started, you started YouTube at the age of, like, 16.

    4. CL

      We're getting old, huh?

    5. AA

      We're getting old, I know.

    6. CL

      Shh.

    7. AA

      Like, all these Gen Zers-

    8. CL

      I w-

    9. AA

      ... on TikTok and stuff

    10. CL

      ... I always felt like the young one in the, in the group that I kind of came up with on YouTube because-

    11. AA

      Yeah

    12. CL

      ... I was 16. Uh, I think I was 17 when I signed my first contract with, uh, what they called networks. I think it was-

    13. AA

      Yeah

    14. CL

      ... it could have been Channel Flip or... No, I don't wanna, I don't wanna throw them under the bus. It might have been someone else. Uh, and I remember trying to get out of the, out of the contract, and they were like, "No, you signed it." And it was a terrible contract. I don't-- It wasn't Channel Flip, just in case-

    15. AA

      [laughs] Yeah, yeah

    16. CL

      ... Channel Flip still exists. And, uh, and then they were like, "You can't get out." And I was like, "I'm 17." And they're like, "Okay, you're out. Can you sign a new contract?" I'm like, "No. That's done. You had me."

    17. AA

      [laughs] So-

    18. CL

      "But now you lost me."

    19. AA

      What was YouTube like in, in the early days?

    20. CL

      Yeah, I mean, I guess kind of, as I alluded to, quite cowboyish. A lot of people trying to get involved, but not really knowing what it was all about. Um, for me, I literally started my channel because I wanted to impress, uh, the girls in my class. I thought YouTube was, like, the coolest thing in the world. And, uh, it turns out it wasn't.

    21. AA

      It wasn't?

    22. CL

      No. I don't-- Was this like that for you or... 'Cause for me, when I, when I started, people just thought I was such a, a weird person in my class really. [laughs]

    23. AA

      Yeah, I mean, so even in, even in 2017 when I started, people was, thought I w- Like, once it started to go well-

    24. CL

      Yeah

    25. AA

      ... people wanted to-

    26. CL

      Okay.

    27. AA

      Yeah.

    28. CL

      So that's when it changes.

    29. AA

      That, that's when everyone, everyone wanted to be in a video-

    30. CL

      Yeah

  3. 9:28 – 16:06

    Flying from South Africa to the UK at 17 to collab with YouTubers

    1. AA

      So where, w- were you in South Africa?

    2. CL

      So yeah-

    3. AA

      Well-

    4. CL

      ... I was originally in South Africa when I started in a very small town.

    5. AA

      Whereabouts?

    6. CL

      Uh, do you know Knysna?

    7. AA

      No. What is... But I know Ladybrand in Bloemfontein.

    8. CL

      [laughs] Ladybrand?

    9. AA

      'Cause I, 'cause I-

    10. CL

      I don't know Ladybrand

    11. AA

      ... 'cause I used to live in Lesotho.

    12. CL

      Okay. Lady... No, you mean Ladysmith?

    13. AA

      It used to be called Ladybrand back in the day. I don't know if it's-

    14. CL

      Maybe. No, maybe it's Ladybrand.

    15. AA

      Yeah. I mean, it's a small town we used-

    16. CL

      Do you have like a Google person like, uh, Joe Rogan or do you just do it yourself? [laughs]

    17. AA

      Ladybrand is a small agricultural town in the Free State province of South Africa.

    18. CL

      Okay, it's a thing. It's a thing.

    19. AA

      It's 18 kilometers from Maseru.

    20. CL

      Awesome.

    21. AA

      Yeah. 'Cause I used to live in Lesotho-

    22. CL

      Yeah, okay, that's amazing

    23. AA

      ... for like five years growing up. Yeah.

    24. CL

      I, I've been to Lesotho once or twice.

    25. AA

      Hmm.

    26. CL

      It's freezing up there.

    27. AA

      It's cold in the winter, yeah. [laughs]

    28. CL

      Uh, so Lesotho for those who don't know is, it's like a separate country within South Africa. It's a kingdom.

    29. AA

      Yeah.

    30. CL

      And we have two countries like that.

  4. 16:06 – 22:00

    How much were you making before deciding to do YouTube full-time?

    1. AA

      How, how much were you making back then when you decided this was full-time legit?

    2. CL

      So yeah, good question. Um, I suppose in the very beginning I moved over... So I, I decided I'm gonna travel between like Ireland, the US, England, and just try collaborate with, with as many people as possible. At that point I, I remember having 4,000 pounds in my bank account. Uh, and so that sounds quite hectic, especially now with like, with inflation and stuff. But at the time there was money coming in too, and, and so I felt, I was probably in the very beginning making like two and a half, 3,000 pounds a month. Um-

    3. AA

      And that was like top 10 YouTubers on the platform making money.

    4. CL

      No, not, not that, no.

    5. AA

      Okay. [laughs]

    6. CL

      No, I was-

    7. AA

      No

    8. CL

      ... by that point there were a lot more YouTubers doing-

    9. AA

      Okay

    10. CL

      ... doing quite well. Uh, but then things, you know, over the, I'd say kind of b- between 2013 and 2016, yeah, things got pretty, pretty good in terms of, uh, financially. Um, it's not something we really actually spoke about at the time. I think, you know, we... I think there were two reasons. One, we weren't necessarily doing YouTube for that, but it was a byproduct. Um, and two, y- you didn't want to... I d- we weren't the sort of people who were like, "Oh, we got, we're making all this money. We wanna talk about it. We wanna flex."

    11. AA

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CL

      Whereas now I think there are people who also like to make content about, about that too, which is great. Whereas back then it just wasn't really a thing.

    13. AA

      So like back there, like tw- 2013 to 2016, let, let's say you had like a million subscribers. How, how, how, how much money were these sorts of people making?

    14. CL

      Yeah, so not as much as they are today.

    15. AA

      Okay.

    16. CL

      Uh, but it was, it's less, it's never been on subscribers, but-

    17. AA

      Yeah

    18. CL

      ... y- you know. If someone's getting 20 million views a month, let's say back then, I'd say depends how they monetize. I mean, from AdSense alone, maybe like 20,000 pounds a month-

    19. AA

      Okay

    20. CL

      ... from the AdSense. But I think that would only make up like 10%, you know. They, they could, they could, they could make over a million a year from everything else as well.

    21. AA

      Like merch and like-

    22. CL

      Like-

    23. AA

      ... or

    24. CL

      ... to be honest, more... Like, they could do that, but like brand deals were, and are still a huge part of, uh, part of it. Then there's also things like, uh, deals with, uh, platforms, so new platforms cr- being created, and then YouTube having to kind of start to con- counteract that and pay their own creators to stay on the platform and do-

    25. AA

      Oh, okay

    26. CL

      ... certain things. Uh, so yeah, there was, there were tons of things going on that you could get to a point where you're making a lot of money. Uh, and now I've just, I mean, seeing what some of these creators are doing, like MrBeast, 50 million revenue, I mean, it's insane. Um, but yeah, it was never, you know, in the beginning something we, we thought about. But as it progressed, you do start to go, "Oh wow, this is, this is a, a career." And, and you can't understand, especially when you, when I was like 19, 20, and like people would say, "What are you doing?" Uh, or my grandmother would be like, "What are you, what are you doing with your life?" And you're like, "Well, I'm a YouTuber. This is my job." And they're like, "Well, what's your real job?" Uh, and, and, but you would never be like, "Well, look at my bank account. It's actually a job, I promise." But you would try and explain to them, uh, and to be honest, the, the, the time my grandmother actually, um, understood it was a job worth pursuing was when I met the Queen for the first time, and, uh, and then she was like, "Okay, finally, you've, uh-

    27. AA

      "You've got a real job now." [laughs]

    28. CL

      ... you've got a real job now. I'm proud of you."

    29. AA

      Just a quick message from one of our sponsors, and we'll get right back to the episode, and this episode is very kindly brought to you by Heights. Heights is a brain care smart supplement. It is two capsules that you take every day. I've been taking it for the last 12 months, and it contains over 20 evidence-based micronutrients that you need to keep your brain and body healthy. Like I said, I've been taking Heights every day for the last 12 months, and through that I've actually become friends with the founder, Dan, who we actually had on season one of this podcast, and this season we also have an interview with neuroscientist and psychiatrist Tara Swart, who is the chief science officer at Heights as well. And one of the things I love about Heights is the fact that every single thing they do is very evidence-based. Over on their blog, on their website, they've got tons of articles along with links to all of the different papers that they've cited that show all the benefits of the various micronutrients that they've got in these two little capsules. And the best thing about taking these is that it is just two little capsules every morning, so you don't have to deal with green sludge or any other kind of faf- faffery. It's just literally taking two pills. It's super easy to sign up. You just go on the website, you put in your address, and they send you either a monthly or a quarterly subscription. I sign up to the quarterly one myself because, A, it's cheaper, and B, I'd have to take fewer deliveries. And if you use the coupon code Ali15 at checkout, that will give you 15% off the already discounted price of the quarterly subscription so you can try out Heights to your heart's content. So thank you so much, Heights, for sponsoring this episode and for helping improve my own brain care. I guess back in the day, from what I've heard from people who were in or experienced YouTube back in the day-

    30. CL

      Yeah

  5. 22:00 – 27:20

    What were the challenges of YouTube?

    1. CL

      channel-

    2. AA

      Yeah

    3. CL

      ... and, uh-

    4. AA

      All the late night shows-

    5. CL

      Exactly

    6. AA

      ... all have clips and all that stuff.

    7. CL

      Exactly.

    8. AA

      What were some of the challenges?

    9. CL

      So I s- I suppose the challenges, I mean, to be honest, I think l- kind of learning that adults don't always know what's best just because they're older than you. Uh, so when you're young, you're doing really well and you don't know why, it's kind of an accident. Um, you really try and look for advice from other people, and I think growing up, and this is something maybe all young people go through. I definitely did. Uh, you, you, you reach out to people who are older, and they must know the answers, and you get your advice, and then you just do what they say. Uh, and that's not always right. I mean, of course, people who are older, you gotta respect them. They usually do have a, a bit more experience, but you gotta speak to the right people. You gotta make the right, um, calls, and that's partly why I do what I do today is, like, I've made some mistakes, not, like, in terms of being canceled or, or things like that, but more just things along the way I wish I knew when I was starting, um, things that make things a lot more efficient, uh, can help you in terms of burnout, things like that.

    10. AA

      Like, like what? What are some of the mistakes?

    11. CL

      Well, just for example, like, just setting up, how you set up your affairs as, like, a... You become a creator. You need to set up a company. How does that work? Where do you do that? How do you do that? Um, things like how do you set up a system whereby y- you don't feel alone as a creator? How do you create a team who can help you be consistent with your content without also taking away from it and making it too kind of maybe corporate? Some creators strug- struggle with that. Like, the reason they're so successful is 'cause they're so organic, and then but how do you keep that organic stuff going-

    12. AA

      Yeah

    13. CL

      ... while scaling that up? So yeah, tons of just, there's, there's tons of things. And then just in terms of mental health, how, how do you kind of stay, not grounded, but how... A lot of creators I've met, uh, struggle with an- anxiety. I think it's a lot of, not just creators, but just in general young people. Um, and, and, and having a job whereby there's not that many boundaries, there's no, like, uh, off switch, or you don't go home and you're done and you put up your, your feet. Not saying it's really difficult all the time, but you're kind of always on. And, uh, I think you know a lot about th- that sort of stuff-

    14. AA

      [laughs]

    15. CL

      ... so keen to get your thoughts on boundaries too.

    16. AA

      Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, I think the level of, at which I know is very different to kind of... I th- I, I think the, the super interesting thing, um, that's sort of, kind of seeing, seeing your story is that you were squarely in, like, the entertainment category.

    17. CL

      Yeah.

    18. AA

      Whereas I'm squarely in the education category, and I feel like it's easier to be in, it's way easier to be in education because you just teach people stuff, and if I need content, I'll read a book and talk about the book.

    19. CL

      Yeah.

    20. AA

      But it's like enter- how the hell do you be entertaining for, like, nine years in a row? And then also, like, the whole thing around, uh-

    21. CL

      Well, you don't. [laughs]

    22. AA

      Yeah, so it's-

    23. CL

      You just make some shit videos.

    24. AA

      [laughs]

    25. CL

      But carry on.

    26. AA

      Yeah. The, I, I think the, the difficulty of staying entertaining for a long period of time plus also, like, the fact that I think you developed a very strong... And so pe- uh, the, so sort of lifestyle vloggery type people have this strong parasocial relationship with the audience where they genuinely feel as if they're your friend and will be disappointed if you do anything bad and, and stuff like- And also just the, the stratospheric, like, growth and things and collabing with all these people. That- that's something that I can't relate to at all because it's just felt-

    27. CL

      Yeah

    28. AA

      ... felt pretty chill on my end because-

    29. CL

      Well, it's- I think that's the genius of what you do, and, uh, you know, you've ... You- you can create formats a lot more, maybe-

    30. AA

      Yeah

  6. 27:20 – 30:58

    What were the struggles with burnout?

    1. AA

      uh ... What were the struggles/challeng- challenges with burnout back in the day?

    2. CL

      Yeah.

    3. AA

      'Cause I guess, like, the word wasn't used that often-

    4. CL

      Yeah

    5. AA

      ... back in like 2010-

    6. CL

      Yeah

    7. AA

      ... till 2015.

    8. CL

      Yeah.

    9. AA

      It only really started going into the sort of people's vocabulary recently-

    10. CL

      Exactly

    11. AA

      ... I guess. But-

    12. CL

      And I feel like creators say it a lot, and I think people must be like, "What the fuck? Why, why are you..." Sorry if I ... I don't know if I can swear on here.

    13. AA

      It's all good.

    14. CL

      Great.

    15. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    16. CL

      Um, why are you burnt out? Like, your job is to travel the world, having fun, and you film it. Um, and, and so I don't think burnout is by any means exclusive to creators. It's like a universal thing, but I think... And I saw Grace Beverly talking about this, like no matter how... And she was on your podcast and she said this exact thing. Maybe just put her video in. I don't have to say it.

    17. AA

      [laughs]

    18. CL

      But no matter how much you enjoy, uh, what you're doing, um, and in the beginning, if you do it enough, uh, you start to, you start to get burnt out, especially if you push it too much and you don't take breaks and you don't have structure. Um, so I, I mean, personally, I, I just kept pushing through it as long as I could. Um, and then luckily it got to a point where, where I really felt it, and instead of making like a big deal out of it or anything, 'cause it wasn't planned, I just said to myself, "Take a break." And that break has, [laughs] has basically led me here. That break was in 2019. Um, and, and I haven't, haven't uploaded since.

    19. AA

      Mm.

    20. CL

      But I suppose what's so lucky is, and, and partly planned by me, is like I have a, a life outside of YouTube that I, I can get up every day and I'm just as excited about as I was making videos. Um, so that's also hard, and I, and I advise creators and YouTubers to have lives outside of their work, uh, or do work outside of YouTube as well that they can do one day.

    21. AA

      Just a quick message from one of our sponsors and we'll get right back to the episode, and this episode is very kindly brought to you by Shortform. Shortform is the world's best service that summarizes books, but it's way more than just book summaries. They almost have a whole study guide for every book that they've got on the platform, where they've got a one-page summary, and then they also have chapter-by-chapter breakdowns. And it's not just chapter-by-chapter breakdowns. Also in between the chapter breakdowns, they have interactive exercises where you can engage more readily with the ideas in the book. Shortform covers nonfiction books from a bunch of different genres that you might be interested in. For example, they've got a load of stuff in the business world, so if, for example, you're an entrepreneur or you want to become an entrepreneur, that'll be great for you. They've got books in motivation. They've got books in education. They've got books in lifestyle and communication. Basically any genre of like nonfiction, personal development-y, self-help-y stuff that will help you level up your life, it's all there on Shortform. Shortform publishes new book guides and articles every week, and if you're a subscriber, then you get to vote on what book they cover next. And in fact, through that system, I have voted for various books that they've then turned into summaries. For example, one book I've recently revisited on Shortform is Rework by DHH and Jason Fried, who are the founders of Basecamp. I've read Rework I think like twice, but the first time I read it was like absolutely ages ago, and so once I saw that they had a summary on Shortform, that was really helpful in allowing me to revisit the lessons that I learned from the book the first time around. And that's one of the things I love about Shortform is like I often stumble upon books that I read like 10 years ago and I'm like, "Oh, damn." Like, I'd actually forgotten most of the lessons from here, but now it's super easy to revisit those lessons without having to actually reread the book. Anyway, if any of that sounds up your street and you would like to sign up to the world's best service that summarizes books, then head over to shortform.com/deepdive and that will give you a completely free five-day trial and you can try out the service to your heart's content. That link will also be in the video description and in the show notes, and thank you so much, Shortform, for sponsoring this episode. How

  7. 30:58 – 33:57

    How did you maintain consistency over 9 years?

    1. AA

      did you maintain consistency over a nine-year period?

    2. CL

      [laughs] Like I said-

    3. AA

      Like, there's gonna be times where you just don't feel like doing a video-

    4. CL

      Yeah, so-

    5. AA

      ... but you sort of feel like, "Oh, I probably should because the algorithm and stuff."

    6. CL

      Yeah.

    7. AA

      And like yeah, how, how did you deal with that?

    8. CL

      Look, I, I think my videos were really getting pretty good near the end. Um, you know, in terms of the beginning and stuff, I was very lucky. A lot of people tuned in because they liked either me or my friends or the people I was interviewing. So in terms of consistency- Um, it wasn't always that consistent, but at that time on YouTube people just loved it. It wasn't as maybe, uh, difficult. Uh, there wasn't as much choice. And also when there's certain hype around people, they can do anything and people might watch it. So there was a bit of that in the beginning. Uh, but in terms of, uh, kind of learning how to stay consistent, I think, you know, formats were important. I, I did eventually bring in people who could help. Uh, and, and that's like the secret... That's literally my secret to anything I do in life is, is find people better than me and get them to help me do what I do, or, or I can help them do what they do, and we can work together. Um, so yeah. And I, I do recommend like also pacing yourselves or pacing yourself in terms of consistency. Uh, and just I think you have to be passionate. You- It's so hard to do anything if, if you're not enjoying what you're doing, and, and it, it, it's like running a marathon even though it might be a simple thing like editing a video if you just aren't enjoying it. Uh, so I think consistency comes when you follow your passions too.

    9. AA

      Hmm. So do you think for... Because there's a lot of people... I, I, I, I run this course that helps people kind of start their YouTube channels and have accountability and community and stuff, and a l- a lot of them really struggle with this thing around like you kind of do have to do it for a long time before you can expect to see any kind of results-

    10. CL

      Yeah

    11. AA

      ... or i- i- if, if at all.

    12. CL

      Yeah. Yeah.

    13. AA

      And the thing I always say is like, look, find a way to make it fun, because if you're doing it for the intrinsic joy of doing the thing, you're not worried about the numbers.

    14. CL

      Yeah.

    15. AA

      And I find even now to this day, five years on, the, the less I think about numbers, the happier I am.

    16. CL

      Yeah. And I think if you, if you do it for the, you know, the money, which takes... If, if you look, I think it's hard because on YouTube we're constantly served big creators, so we see like the, you know, the tip of the iceberg. So everyone thinks like that's what you get to. But the ma- like 99.9% of people just don't. And so if you're doing it for that, you'll definitely probably quit before you get there. So you gotta do it for something else, and then if that happens, that's great, and it's... You know, someone like MrBeast is a great example. He just loved it. [laughs] He talks about this all the time, and, uh, if, if, if you look at him when he started, imagine anyone being able to look at his first video on YouTube and seeing him when he was like, I don't know, nine years old, being like, "This is gonna be the, the kind of the biggest entertainer in the world in 2023." You just wouldn't know, and he wouldn't know. Uh, and so he couldn't like, he c- he couldn't have that as a goal, 'cause he probably wouldn't, he wouldn't have made it. But he had smaller goals. He... Like for me, like getting partnership was huge, things like that. Uh,

  8. 33:57 – 35:01

    What YouTube goals did you have?

    1. CL

      so if you enjoy it, that, that really helps.

    2. AA

      What sort of goals did you have along the way other than partnership?

    3. CL

      Um, I s- I suppose I, I wanted to, I wanted to be, uh, a talk show host. I thought that was like my idea of heaven. And then [laughs] along the way I realized that I used to get like massive anxiety every time I was gonna interview someone who I really looked up to, who I had to kind of hold a conversation with. After the interview I was usually happy, but before I would spend like five days just, just in utter fear of, of what am I gonna ask Ed Sheeran, what, what am I gonna say to Kevin Hart? I'm just name-dropping here just to give it a bit of flavor.

    4. AA

      That's great. Love it, yeah. [laughs]

    5. CL

      Um, but, but it, it wasn't just them, it was the fact like the, it was like the people around them, all of that stuff. And, and I actually realized as much as I wanted that goal, it was, it was, uh, it was not necessarily for me. [laughs]

    6. AA

      Yeah. So if you were to...

  9. 35:01 – 41:17

    The relationship between money and happiness

    1. AA

      Let's say during, during the journey, let's say 20- 2010 onwards, um, if you were to have sampled your, like contentment, like on a scale of 0 to 10-

    2. CL

      Yeah

    3. AA

      ... how content are you day-to-day?

    4. CL

      Right now?

    5. AA

      Uh, j- I, I-

    6. CL

      During the journey, okay, cool

    7. AA

      ... I guess like over time, like what would that, what would that graph have looked like for you?

    8. CL

      I think in the very beginning, like super content, just getting like five subscribers a day. Uh, and then as things blew up, like, like beyond the scale, like this is a comedy, this is happening, everything's so new, everything's so exciting. And then, and then actually, funny enough, even at like the height of it, I probably felt like I was achieving less than, than I felt when I was getting five subscribers a day, which is really weird. I think partly 'cause you compare yourself to people arou- around you, and I was surrounded by other people killing it, and you're always like, "Okay, um, like, how do I get there?" Um, but I think it's also just human nature. You get kind of us- used to it. Um, and then the pressure also gets added. Uh, you know, I think it's natural to look at 100 comments and you see 99. I've heard people say this 1,000 times, and, and they're all positive, but you look at the one negative, and that brings you down. But yeah, this is... It's, it's by no means a sob story. I, I, I'd say not... My contentment didn't last to the, at like it was in the very beginning, but it was still great. I still had a, a great time, met amazing people. Um, but you definitely get used to whatever it is that you achieve in life, if it's, you know, if it's money, if it's fame, if it's, uh, being rewarded for your academic achievements. I think you do get used to it, and your happiness can't derive from those things. Uh, and, and if they... You know, there, there is a certain base level whereby it's definitely difficult if you don't have, say, a certain amount of money, and, and... But once you get past that, doesn't make people happier at all.

    9. AA

      Yeah.

    10. CL

      So it's a great lesson to learn.

    11. AA

      Yeah, I know, right? [laughs] Um, well-

    12. CL

      But a billion, I think it would change.

    13. AA

      Yeah.

    14. CL

      If I had a billion, then I'd be so happy.

    15. AA

      Yeah. I mean, most people say that if you, if you take their net worth and multiply it by three, then they'd be happy.

    16. CL

      Yeah.

    17. AA

      They're like, "Oh, I just need three times as much."

    18. CL

      But then wow, I've seen some-

    19. AA

      I think triple the salary. Triple the-

    20. CL

      I've met, I've met some very, uh, so I've met some billionaires who's just so very unhappy, so.

    21. AA

      Why, why do you think that is? Like every-

    22. CL

      Yeah

    23. AA

      ... be- because loads of people say this, they're like, "Oh, there's so many unhappy billionaires."

    24. CL

      Yeah.

    25. AA

      But like for someone, for a normal person, it's like, "Oh, well," it's, it's easy to-

    26. CL

      Yeah

    27. AA

      ... look at that and think

    28. CL

      I think, I think, again, like fame, money, whatever it is, it kind of accentuates, um, whatever your personality is. So I think there's some billionaires who, um, are very, probably really nice people, and some really famous people. A lot of famous people are really nice people, and it's just made them even nicer because now they can do it on like a crazy level. [laughs] Uh, but at the same time, if you're not like a happy person, I think it can make it way worse because you- maybe you think, oh, this is gonna finally bring you happiness, and you get there, and you're like, "Oh, well, this hasn't worked." Um, and then also everyone's kind of saying yes to you all the time, I'm sure, and that probably adds to, to everything. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's fascinating. It's, it is kind of, it's kind of scary that a lot of people do spend their whole lives like after that, and it's hard to like say 100% it doesn't actually lead to it. But I think from everything everyone's seen in the world, even if you look at, you know, people in the public eye and you see what happens to them when they get there, that it's, it's not always right.

    29. AA

      Yeah.

    30. CL

      It's not always good.

  10. 41:17 – 44:49

    Your experience with Tourettes

    1. AA

      you talked about-- You made a video talking about your experience with having Tourette's.

    2. CL

      Yeah.

    3. AA

      For people who might not have-

    4. CL

      Hmm

    5. AA

      ... heard about it and like, like what is-

    6. CL

      Yeah

    7. AA

      ... Tourette's and-

    8. CL

      Yeah

    9. AA

      ... how did that affect your life?

    10. CL

      Yeah. So, um, Tourette's, I think in the mainstream media, is people who swear a lot, and they just can't control it, and they say like really inappropriate things, or people who do like loads of things with their arms-

    11. AA

      Hmm

    12. CL

      ... which is kind of physical tics. Uh, or, uh, and, and I kind of, I struggled a little bit with both, but less swearing. Um, I used to whistle, used to bob my head like that, used to click my leg. Um, actually one time we were, uh, on safari in South Africa, and there was an elephant, and our, our car broke down kind of. Like it wouldn't start the, we couldn't start the engine. It was-- And it was looking at us, and it was going like [whooshing] with its ears. You know, and that's when they s- that's when they hate you-

    13. AA

      Ooh

    14. CL

      ... when they go like that.

    15. AA

      Oh, hello. Yeah.

    16. CL

      Um, and, and then I just, I just had to make this monkey noise. Like I know it sounds ridiculous, but like I screeched, and that was kind of the, one of the first times my parents were like, "Okay, shit." Like I think I was like six at the time, and they're like, "This is... He can't control these things." We researched it. There wasn't that much out about it at the time. Um, and yeah, eventually got on lots of medication. Some of the medication actually led to horrible allergic reactions. Um, but yeah, it got really bad around 12 years old. Just got-- Obviously, it's something quite easy to bully someone about, so I got a bit bullied. Um, teachers would kind of kick me out of class if they didn't really understand it, which sounds crazy because we explained it to them, but maybe they, they thought I was still taking the piss. Um, and yeah, it, it, it was, it wa- it was tough, but what made it better was when I was, when I was ever fo- when I was focusing on so-something, so if I was playing tennis or if I was playing computer games or if I was making YouTube videos, um, or even now, like I'm focusing, um, it always improved. And, and so I think that's partly why I got so obsessed with, while maybe lots of people in South Africa were out there, uh, hanging out with their friends and so on, maybe I was more obsessed in, in what I was doing because it was an escape. Uh, so yeah, but now I think around 50%-- I don't know what the stat is, but- A lot of people with Tourette's, when they're younger, uh, when they get older it gets a lot better. Um, and, and so I'm one of those lucky p- ones who it hasn't gotten worse, it's kind of gotten a lot better for me. Uh, but yeah.

    17. AA

      Wow.

    18. CL

      Yeah.

    19. AA

      So how, how was it kind of making a video about it, talking about the experience?

    20. CL

      So interestingly, it was never kind of a big part of what I did, but I realized that there were gonna be a percentage of my followers who had Tourette's, and there was nothing better than when I, when I heard that the, uh, the US football goalkeeper had Tourette's. I don't even know his name. It's not a big deal to me, but just hearing of someone s- kind of successful having Tourette's made me feel really good, so I was like, "Okay, maybe there'll be someone in my audience who can listen to this." So I made a video about it. Um, and yeah, people reacted really well. I'm sure there were some, some comments, but that was the time when I looked at the positive comments and I was like, "That's great." Uh, and yeah, it's something, it's something I'm actually proud of, um, that I, that I went through, 'cause I think it's important to have challenges in life, and, uh, yeah, that's something I ch- I had as a challenge.

    21. AA

      You,

  11. 44:49 – 49:56

    Meditation and breaking through your comfort zone

    1. AA

      um... I read somewhere that you had, uh, you were into, like, mindfulness and meditation and the like. W- what was your journey with those things?

    2. CL

      So my mom used to do it, and she used to try to get me to meditate when I had Tourette's, and that didn't work [laughs] . So, um, many years later, uh, s- this was actually during lockdown, so I had this crazy experience where I didn't see people very much. And, and then when I did, for some reason I was getting so socially anxious, and it could be something like sitting in the car with a really good friend. Like, my best friend, I could be in the car with him, and I c- could basically have a panic attack. And it c- it really came out of nowhere, and I'm not sure if it's related to just stress at the time or... I s- I still don't know why it happened, but I, I sought out therapy and, uh, you know, we worked through it, but one of the things the guy recommended was to meditate. And so I downloaded the Calm app and, uh, I, I, I, I learnt about experiencing feelings in my body and thoughts and kind of noticing them for what they are and not taking them s- as seriously as I used to. But yeah, it... That said, it was still... It doesn't just fix it. It's not one of those thing- I think some people think, like, "If I meditate 10 times this week, everything's gonna be good." You s- you still have... There's still other factors at play. Uh, but over time it's definitely kind of helped. Um, alongside just doing things again and doing things that I'm uncomfortable with.

    3. AA

      Hmm. Uncomfortable with?

    4. CL

      Uh, so yeah. Like for example with podcasts.

    5. AA

      Yeah.

    6. CL

      Um, you know, I'm not asked on that many podcasts, but I've been asked on probably 10 podcasts this year, and, uh, I've said no to every single one. And because I was like, "What if I have a panic attack while I'm doing a podcast?"

    7. AA

      Yeah.

    8. CL

      Which it's... You'd probably look at me now and you're like, "You probably don't seem like that." Um, but, but yeah, I... So I was avoiding it, and then I was like, I got the DM from you, and I'm already getting a lot better. Like the last kind of year and a half I've just been trying to do things that make me scared, and I was like, "Okay, this is a great opportunity. He seems like a really nice guy."

    9. AA

      Oh, thank you [laughs] .

    10. CL

      "This is not gonna be intimidating, and now I'm gonna do it." And even before this I'm obviously... I was pretty nervous. Um, but, but now I've done it I'm gonna probably do more. And so that's also my advice is, one is meditating, but two, if something really scares you, obviously don't jump right into the deep end, but try and do it 'cause it's way worse in your head.

    11. AA

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CL

      Uh, especially things like sitting in the car with my friend. I mean, there's nothing dangerous about that, but something about that was, was giving me anxiety.

    13. AA

      And you didn't have anxiety before this?

    14. CL

      Um, not so much. No. No.

    15. AA

      Wow.

    16. CL

      But, but I think it is related. Tourette's, I mean Tourette's, ADD, a bit of OCD, all of these things are kind of related. Uh, so yeah, you know. Uh, it's, it's something, it's something my, you know, my mom struggled with, my sister struggles with, so yeah. But I think, you know, again, it's one of those things which at the time it's, it, it sucks and, and so on, but if you can use it to teach yourself lessons and also appreciate when you're not feeling anxious and you're just like, "Wow, I feel normal," um, a- and then you just enjoy s- simple things, then, then it's actually... It's a bit of a power too.

    17. AA

      What, what does your meditation practice look like?

    18. CL

      So i- it's, it's, it's super competitive. The opposite of what meditation should be. I, uh... No. I, I, I basically sit down, um, and, and listen to, to Calm. What's her name on Calm? There's this one, Theresa. Is her name Theresa or something? Everyone, uh, people in the comments will know who I'm talking about. Uh, and she basically does a guided meditation, and I do that. Uh, but sometimes even, even before I'm doing something that's difficult I'll just take some time to breathe. I'll... No matter what happens I'll feel nervous.

    19. AA

      Yeah.

    20. CL

      Like I can't stop that. And I'll... But I'll notice what that is and I'll be like, "Okay, what's the worst that can happen? You can end up in hospital. What's the worst that can happen? You could die. Okay, that sucks." [laughs]

    21. AA

      [laughs]

    22. CL

      I'm just rationalizing here.

    23. AA

      Yeah. Okay.

    24. CL

      [laughs] That's, that's what usually goes through my brain.

    25. AA

      So then what do you do when that happens?

    26. CL

      And then I'm just like, "Fuck."

    27. AA

      Yeah.

    28. CL

      Then I just go and do it. No, you gotta... You just gotta do... And then I just feel like you just, y- you breathe. You can even get things like this, which you might think, "Why do I have this?" And when I first met you, we shook hands and I had it in my hand.

    29. AA

      Yeah.

    30. CL

      You probably don't remember.

  12. 49:56 – 52:41

    Ali's research on energy and anxiety

    1. AA

      Yeah. So this is something I've been, I've been looking into a fair bit. I mean, firstly, thank you for being so open.

    2. CL

      Oh, no.

    3. AA

      This is, this is great. Like, um, I'm sure there, there are people listening to this who ha- who are-

    4. CL

      Well, that's what I get-

    5. AA

      ... fully relating with all of the things you're saying and like, "Oh my God-

    6. CL

      Yeah

    7. AA

      ... thank God someone is talking about this."

    8. CL

      Well, I saw-

    9. AA

      Yeah

    10. CL

      ... I think I saw Lewis Capaldi recently talk about this-

    11. AA

      Yeah

    12. CL

      ... and I was like, "That's, that makes me feel good."

    13. AA

      Yeah.

    14. CL

      Like it's not just me, so.

    15. AA

      Yeah, 'cause-

    16. CL

      You know, seeing him struggle makes me feel great.

    17. AA

      [laughs] Yeah, 'cause especially with a lot of the, a lot of the mental health stuff as well, like it's, it's, it's so easy to think that this is just the way I am, this is normal-

    18. CL

      Yeah

    19. AA

      ... and that no one else has, has those struggles.

    20. CL

      But-

    21. AA

      But hearing kind of people like you being open about it on podcasts-

    22. CL

      Yeah

    23. AA

      ... is just, like, super nice and-

    24. CL

      Yeah

    25. AA

      ... helpful.

    26. CL

      Thank you.

    27. AA

      I've been doing a bunch of research for the book that I'm writing around, um, like, uh, energy-

    28. CL

      Yeah

    29. AA

      ... and, and, and like, uh, sympathetic versus parasympathetic nervous system. Um-

    30. CL

      I pretend I know what those mean

  13. 52:41 – 54:53

    Why did you take an extended break?

    1. AA

      did you take that extended break, and why did it extend-

    2. CL

      Yeah

    3. AA

      ... for so long?

    4. CL

      So yeah, it was also around the time things were kind of going into lockdown. So I was taking, I think around the t- if I remember correctly, I took like a few months break. The businesses also that I'm involved in, so I've, I've got a, a few things that I do outside of YouTube-

    5. AA

      Mm

    6. CL

      ... and they were really starting to take up a lot of time. And I, at the same time, I wasn't enjoying what I was doing as much. I don't think my audience was even enjoying what I was doing that much at the time. There, uh, there just wasn't this feeling of like, uh, momentum. And, and so I, I just, I just, just didn't think about it too much. I was like, "I'm gonna take a few weeks." Uh, and that, that turned into years. Uh, and now I'm loving what I'm doing. Uh, and, and so I suppose to be a YouTuber now, um, you really have to... it has to be a big priority, and it has to kind of almost be a full-time job unless you have a, a great team. Uh, so I, and I wasn't prepared to, to do that because I needed to also focus on, on my other ventures.

    7. AA

      Yeah. So when you say momentum and you felt the audience wasn't enjoying it, like what were those signs? What was that like?

    8. CL

      So I mean, yeah, it's just I feel like, you know, views aren't at the same place as, as they were when you were, when you're on your way up. Uh, but yeah, also struggling with ideas, struggling just to be like, "I want to make this video."

    9. AA

      Mm-hmm.

    10. CL

      I, I think YouTube, it went also from a place whereby y- if you had a certain amount of subscribers, those subscribers would see your content, to being about how much time was your audience watching your videos, so the watch time became super important. Um, and yeah, that was, that was... it's difficult. It's difficult to keep going, especially as we spoke about earlier in terms of entertainment and, and YouTube, and yeah, I just, I just, I just saw it as a great opportunity to, to, to focus what I- on what I was doing. And not also, I didn't want to stay on YouTube as, as long as I possibly could and just wait. I, I wanted to be like, "This was a great chapter in my life. I really enjoyed it. It went really well, and now I'm doing this."

    11. AA

      What was

  14. 54:53 – 1:15:51

    Your businesses

    1. AA

      the, what was the, um, story behind the first, the first, like an offshoot business?

    2. CL

      Yeah. So, so my, one of my companies is called Influencer.com. Uh-

    3. AA

      That's a good domain.

    4. CL

      Thank you.

    5. AA

      How much did that cost you, do you think?

    6. CL

      Thank you. Yeah. I mean, so my co-founder actually got it.

    7. AA

      [laughs] Okay.

    8. CL

      Uh, but yeah-

    9. AA

      That's very expensive

    10. CL

      ... it's, it's, it's like a house. Um-

    11. AA

      Wow. [laughs]

    12. CL

      But it's, it's definitely helpful.

    13. AA

      Yeah.

    14. CL

      Um, so essentially, at, at the time, uh, my co-founder was like, uh, he was about 20 years old. He was friends with my girlfriend at the time.

    15. AA

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CL

      And he asked her if he could meet with me. Um, and, and, and we met, and, uh, and I spent like three hours with him just... firstly, what you said, I was so impressed by the domain. Uh, [laughs] and, and then he kind of told me about his dream of, of helping creators, um, work with brands at scale, and, and I just thought the one big problem right now with this space is that creators are working with brands they don't really like to work with- Uh, and there's not mu- much choice for creators. And, and so I was like, "This is a great opportunity for f- for creators to be able to make a living from what they do and choose the right brands to work with, and hopefully their audience will see that too, and then they'll be happy for the creator." Uh, so yeah, that's how we kind of got going. The vision was to build meaningful relationships between brands, creators, and their audiences. Uh, and at the time it was just the two of us. Uh, since then we've, we've scaled the team, uh, to five countries. We've got 93 people there. Um, and yeah, we've, we've worked with amazing brands, uh, amazing agencies, and yeah, just so proud of the culture we've built there-

    17. AA

      Yeah

    18. CL

      ... and the leadership team. Um, yes, it's, it's been a great experience.

    19. AA

      What's, what's your role in this?

    20. CL

      So I'm, I'm chief visionary officer and co-founder, so I get really involved in a number of areas. Firstly, I am, uh, Ben's shoulder to cry on, who's our CEO.

    21. AA

      Mm.

    22. CL

      Ev- everything that happens, he comes to me and we talk about it. And I-- that's really great when you have a business where you have a s- a, a co-founder that you're so open with. Um, essentially, I, I help guide the product. You know, what creators want, 'cause I speak to a lot of creators. I was a creator. Um, then also working with the brands and helping guide their creative strategy. So what, what kind of content works on different platforms? And not only on different platforms, what kind of content works on the features within those platforms? And it sounds quite obvious, but when you're working with a brand who says, "We wanna work with 300 creators, and we wanna create this campaign, and it needs to hit this, this, and this," and then all the different creators within that have their own, um, styles, their own objectives, and you kind of have to bring that all together, that's when you need a company that not only has incredible, uh, people working there who understand the space, but also the technology which connects everything together. So, for example, pulls in- information from the APIs to share with the brand, making sure it's all legitimate and it's not screenshots. Um, that's what we've built at Influencer. That's, that's super exciting.

    23. AA

      So what is, what is the product? 'Cause I think I last looked at it in 2018 or 2019, something like that-

    24. CL

      Yeah

    25. AA

      ... to where I was, where I was like, "Oh, I can work with Starbucks." And then it was like-

    26. CL

      Yeah

    27. AA

      ... oh, but, you-- and it's like, oh, you connect your-

    28. CL

      Yeah

    29. AA

      ... I was-- it was ver- very solid onboard. I was like, "Wow, this is-"

    30. CL

      Thank you. Yeah, yeah

  15. 1:15:51 – 1:19:57

    What drives you these days?

    1. AA

      what drives you these days?

    2. CL

      What drives me?

    3. AA

      Presumably it's not making more money at this stage.

    4. CL

      [laughs]

    5. AA

      Presumably. But like, I mean-

    6. CL

      No

    7. AA

      ... uh, there's always like a bit of part of it inves- investors are always like, "Oh, in fact."

    8. CL

      Yeah.

    9. AA

      But like really, come on. [laughs]

    10. CL

      No. Um, what drives me?

    11. AA

      Yeah.

    12. CL

      I suppose it's, it's, it's going back to doing little challenges, trying to do things I'm scared of because I get like a huge rush once I've done it.

    13. AA

      Yeah.

    14. CL

      Uh, but yeah, I, I, I kind of-

    15. AA

      Just like doing cool shit. [laughs]

    16. CL

      Yeah, doing cool shit, just enjoying life. I don't, I, I, I kind of just every day I, I, I look at my calendar and it's, uh, it's, it's kind of made up of a little bit of influencer, a little bit of Margravine, a little bit of, uh, Creator Ventures and so on. And it's so fun to like get to meet all these people. Right now I also enjoy, um, kind of, uh, mentoring some people in my company who are maybe this is could be their first job, uh, and things like that, and just getting to speak to them-

    17. AA

      Yeah

    18. CL

      ... and seeing what they're doing, that kind of stuff. I know that's the, that's what you have to say when you, y- you're on a podcast. What else inspires me? Um, I don't know. I guess ch- challenge. Without... That's, I think a lot of-- I've spoken to someone who actually, and you've, you've spoken to many of these people, who've sold, um, a business maybe they've built up, and they've like thought the day that they sell their business will be the happiest day of their life, and it's a very happy day. But what happens is like a week or two later, they start like itching and they're going, "What, what, what's my meaning?" Like, "I don't want to just go and play golf for, for the rest of my life." And they realize like that humans are built to have challenges. It's like when you play The Sims on cheat mode, right?

    19. AA

      Hmm.

    20. CL

      Am I right?

    21. AA

      Yeah.

    22. CL

      Did you ever-- What was the cheat mode on The Sims?

    23. AA

      I can't remember. I, I remember-

    24. CL

      Do you remember the, there was a word

    25. AA

      ... I used-

    26. CL

      It was like unlimited, like what have I got?

    27. AA

      I used to play, I used to play SimCity-

    28. CL

      Yeah

    29. AA

      ... on cheat

    30. CL

      Did you ever play on cheat?

  16. 1:19:57 – 1:23:34

    Tips for creating a living you love

    1. AA

      we have, you know, a bunch of kind of young entrepreneurs and actually a lot of older people who want to become entrepreneurs listening to this who love the idea of either, uh, they, who, who love the idea of being able to Uh, do what they love and make a living from what they love, whether that's the creator world or the business world or the freelancer world or anything like that. Do you have any general top tips, things that you've learnt over this- this [laughs] big question, but like-

    2. CL

      Yeah, yeah

    3. AA

      ... things you've learned over these last 12 years that you think-

    4. CL

      Let's just, um-

    5. AA

      Yeah

    6. CL

      ... hold on. Let me have a look at my answers here.

    7. AA

      [laughs] Yeah.

    8. CL

      Top 10 tips. No. Um, this is my- my thing is it's not about how hard you work. It's about how smart you work. So if, if you're just spending your tons of time on something, that doesn't mean it's gonna reap rewards. It's not always the right thing to be doing. So be prepared to not only... Obviously, I'm not saying don't work hard, but, but work smart. Be prepared to walk away from things that aren't actually gonna work. But that said, you could also walk away from the next fucking Facebook, so-

    9. AA

      Yeah, exactly. Hard to know, yeah

    10. CL

      ... again, I caveat all my answers with like I'm like a contrarian to myself. Um, then just, just again, surround yourself with, with people that you aspire to be more like. So it's a pretty common thing that people say, but like the five people you spend most of your time with become the person you are-

    11. AA

      Mm

    12. CL

      ... or you become the person... I don't know.

    13. AA

      Something like that, yeah. [laughs]

    14. CL

      Something like that. [laughs] Um, so surround yourself with people like that. Uh, f- you know, f- know your value. You are-- Everyone's good at something, and when you know your value, sell yourself. When you meet people, try your best. Obviously, don't just go in there, um, and brag about yourself, but be confident and remind people why it's important that you're around and you're involved. Um, like for me, I think my angle is a creator who hopefully understands business, and so I always remind people of that and try and make sure, like, everyone knows this is what they can come to me for. And then when they think of something, maybe they think, "Oh, I need someone to come to a panel. Oh, him," because, uh, I, I make it very clear what, what I can add. Um, I, I suppose meet- meeting people, I, I, I spoke, you know, I spoke about our fund earlier. W- w- we don't meet everyone, but we try and meet as many entrepreneurs as we can just because even if it's not the perfect business for us to invest in, 'cause we probably only invest in like 1% of the deals we do, I mean, the deals we look at. Uh, but, but we wanna meet everyone, have a conversation, learn something from them. They can hopefully learn something from us, and they can walk away with a good experience because you never know where those people are gonna end up.

    15. AA

      Mm.

    16. CL

      And like, there are a lot of people out there who only give time of day to people who they think they can get something from now, and I think that is like... I think that's a short-term, uh, it makes sense, but long-term, the, it's actually really stupid. And when I say it makes sense, it's just, it's a shitty way to be, but you can see why people think, "Oh, why would I spend time with this person?" Don't be like that. That's just so, so silly because everyone has something to add now, and also you never know where they're gonna be. Um, so those are a few tips. I mean, yeah, I don't know if you have anything a- to add, but-

    17. AA

      I don't know. I mean, honestly, I was, I, I was surprised that you said yes to this podcast.

    18. CL

      Really?

    19. AA

      'Cause I was thinking that, ugh, you know, it's a bit of a long shot. Caspar Lee's a big deal. Um, [laughs] I even searched Amazon-

    20. CL

      You had MKBH- you had MKBHD.

    21. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    22. CL

      Is that how you say it? He's like your best.

    23. AA

      Yeah.

    24. CL

      I mean, you've got to have-

    25. AA

      He, he happened to have seen some of the videos. I was like-

    26. CL

      There we go. Well-

    27. AA

      ... ooh, this is kind of cool

    28. CL

      ... I mean-

    29. AA

      Yeah

    30. CL

      ... yeah, it just... As I said, I, I, I don't, uh, like I, I don't get asked to go on every podcast in the world, but I also, I, I haven't been on a podcast probably in a very long time, and I just-

  17. 1:23:34 – 1:27:47

    Do you struggle with procrastination?

    1. CL

      yeah.

    2. AA

      Um, do you ever struggle with procrastination?

    3. CL

      Yes.

    4. AA

      What do you do about it?

    5. CL

      Oh, not great. Um, I think... Okay, here we go. The answer is to make sure someone else is gonna be disappointed if you don't do it. So like, I'm a people pleaser. So for example, I don't have a PT, but let's just say I had a PT, uh, and I wanted to get really strong in the gym. I would go to the gym not to disappoint that person.

    6. AA

      Yeah, I've got my PT session at 7:00 today. [laughs]

    7. CL

      There you go. And you don't want to disappoint them.

    8. AA

      Nothing.

    9. CL

      Whereas if it's just me in my silo, I'm gonna like just come up with an excuse.

    10. AA

      Yeah.

    11. CL

      Uh, so when it comes to like waking up early, if, if I wanna wake up early and I'm like, I procrastinate, I don't like doing that, I'll set something really early that I have to go to, and then I'll do it.

    12. AA

      Oh, I love doing that too. Like, uh, the sort of the, the 8:00 AM breakfast.

    13. CL

      Yeah, you have to do it.

    14. AA

      I'm just like, "Okay." [laughs]

    15. CL

      You, you hate yourself.

    16. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    17. CL

      You hate yourself for it, but you have to do it.

    18. AA

      And then you're there, you've got the coffee, it's like, "Okay, this is nice."

    19. CL

      Exactly.

    20. AA

      "I'm glad I woke up for this."

    21. CL

      So just-

    22. AA

      Yeah

    23. CL

      ... being around other people, doing stuff with other people, uh, I think, I think that's why creators also struggle a lot. A lot of them work in silos.

    24. AA

      Mm.

    25. CL

      And when they don't have a team, it's really hard because you're procrastinating. There's no one else kind of, uh, kind of there to take account for what you're doing.

    26. AA

      Hmm.

    27. CL

      So I think that helps.

    28. AA

      Yeah. What's-

    29. CL

      But I'm, again, by no means, uh, good at that. I, I'm a procrastinator.

    30. AA

      What do you do when you're struggling to motivate yourself to do something, but you feel like, "Oh, I've got to do this thing, but I can't, like I don't really feel like it right now"?

  18. 1:27:47 – 1:33:40

    How do you decide when to quit?

    1. AA

      so you've done lots of projects and stuff. Um-

    2. CL

      [laughs]

    3. AA

      How do you know when to quit something versus when to like just keep going with it 'cause maybe you're in a bit of a local minima or dip?

    4. CL

      Yeah, I mean, I, I haven't quit that many things.

    5. AA

      Hm.

    6. CL

      So maybe I don't... I'm not the best person to answer this. Uh, obviously I've, I've... Okay, you're gonna be like, "Well, YouTube." Uh, but I feel like-

    7. AA

      [laughs] Well, I guess, yeah

    8. CL

      ... that was after a long time.

    9. AA

      Yeah.

    10. CL

      So, so most things I feel like I've started, I've still kind of w- you know, everything I've started five years ago I'm still doing. Um, but how do you know when to quit? If it really isn't, you know, working or bringing you any joy, I think that might be a good time. Uh, but it really depend- I need to look at every situation and analyze it before I can give like a broad piece of advice like that, I feel.

    11. AA

      Yeah.

    12. CL

      Um-

    13. AA

      That's very sensible. [laughs]

    14. CL

      Yeah, exactly. But the funny thing is as well, like-

    15. AA

      That's not what the gurus say. The gurus have an answer for everything.

    16. CL

      Exactly.

    17. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    18. CL

      But actually, quitting might be the best thing you ever do. Not quitting might be the best thing you ever do. I feel like people think if they just... They, they think or they ask for advice from someone that the right answer's gonna come back to them.

    19. AA

      Hm.

    20. CL

      But we can't tell what the future's gonna be. You'd... You know, someone could say you should, you should have quit Bitcoin in 2019-

    21. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    22. CL

      ... or whatever because it was really high, and it kept going, and then they should have said, "Oh, don't quit," and this and... and it just collapsed.

    23. AA

      Yeah.

    24. CL

      You don't know when the right time... You don't really know these things. So I feel like the answer is not to try and perfect every decision. It's just to make decisions, and even if they're right 60% or 70% of the time, at least you're moving in the right direction. But you'll make a lot of mistakes along the way, and that's the same with like starting something new. Don't try and make it perfect before you release it because it's just, that's just not gonna work.

    25. AA

      Yeah. Yeah. I'd had, I'd, um... We released an, an episode recently with a, a professional poker player.

    26. CL

      There we go.

    27. AA

      And he talked about how in poker you have to make zillion, zillions of these decisions.

    28. CL

      I love this.

    29. AA

      And-

    30. CL

      I was literally thinking about poker.

  19. 1:33:40 – 1:41:35

    Book recommendations

    1. AA

      Um, any books that you recommend? Fiction, nonfiction-

    2. CL

      Ooh

    3. AA

      ... anything, anything I should check out?

    4. CL

      Ooh. Uh, Happy by Derren Brown.

    5. AA

      Oh, I love it. It's one of my favorite books.

    6. CL

      There we go. There we go.

    7. AA

      Ah, it's so good. Derren Brown is a dream guest to have on the podcast.

    8. CL

      He ... Yeah, he'll ... He would, he'd be great.

    9. AA

      Yeah.

    10. CL

      He's, uh-

    11. AA

      He is sick. I love him

    12. CL

      ... it's, it's such-

    13. AA

      He's-

    14. CL

      I just ... Yeah, I love it. Um-

    15. AA

      It's quite, like, dense. It's surprisingly hard to read.

    16. CL

      Yeah, it's actually a surprise.

    17. AA

      But it's like-

    18. CL

      I think I ... When I thought of Derren Brown, I didn't think of this guy who-

    19. AA

      He's very, like, well-

    20. CL

      ... understood so much about this space

    21. AA

      ... articulated and ... Yeah.

    22. CL

      Um, but yeah, it w- it was, it was brilliant. It was also quite easy.

    23. AA

      Yeah.

    24. CL

      Uh, the, the ... There's, there's a book called The Politics of Geography. Um, have you heard of that?

    25. AA

      The Politics of Geography?

    26. CL

      Hopefully I've got the name right.

    27. AA

      Or Prisoners of Geography?

    28. CL

      Prisoners of Geography. Thank you.

    29. AA

      I think Angus recommended that to me the other day. I think I've got it on Audible-

    30. CL

      There we go

Episode duration: 1:41:35

In the uListen app, the transcript lights up word by word as you listen. Get uListen

Transcript of episode tDe4tDLx48E

Get more out of YouTube videos.

Read along on your phone, search it beside the video, or ask your favorite AI app what was said.

iOSAndroidClaudeChatGPTChrome