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Deep Dive with Ali AbdaalDeep Dive with Ali Abdaal

How To Build A Multi-Million $ Dating App | Shahzad Younas Founder & CEO of Muzmatch

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Ali AbdaalhostShahzad Younasguest
Oct 11, 20211h 12mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:58

    Intro

    1. AA

      Hello and welcome to Deep Dive, the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators, and other inspiring people to uncover their journeys towards finding joy and fulfillment at work and in life. My name is Ali, and in each episode, I chat to my guests about the philosophies, strategies, and tools that have helped them along the path to living a life of happiness and meaning. My guest this week is Shahzad Younas, founder and CEO of Muzmatch. If you haven't already heard of Muzmatch from their entertaining underground campaigns, it's the revolutionary dating app that's transforming the way Muslims find love and marriage.

    2. SY

      Thought about this and I was- as a man, and I thought, "Why are Muslim men generally quite useless at all this?"

    3. AA

      Mm.

    4. SY

      I'm being ... I'm speaking very generally to cover-

    5. AA

      Of course. Yeah

    6. SY

      ... all the, the politically correct community out there, but I'm very politically incorrect at times.

    7. AA

      In our conversation, Shahzad shares with me how he quit his job and built the Muzmatch app from the ground up, what it takes to find the perfect match, and the problem with dating app etiquette for Muslims. All right. Welcome to the show.

    8. SY

      Why, thank you.

    9. AA

      Thank you for being here.

    10. SY

      Thank you for having me.

    11. AA

      I have a question.

    12. SY

      Uh-oh.

    13. AA

      Why

  2. 0:58 – 2:15

    The world of dating apps

    1. AA

      are you banned from Hinge?

    2. SY

      [laughs]

    3. AA

      [laughs] How does, how does that work?

    4. SY

      You know what? I think it's because I was overtly doing research on ... 'Cause I do research on all these platforms-

    5. AA

      Okay

    6. SY

      ... to see what they're all up to, et cetera, et cetera. And s-

    7. AA

      So you've got accounts on multiple dating apps?

    8. SY

      On many, yes. Yeah.

    9. AA

      Yeah. Okay.

    10. SY

      Yeah. And most of them just don't have ... They just have gibberish on the account.

    11. AA

      Okay.

    12. SY

      Uh, actually, maybe all of them do. Um, uh, and I think this one did. I actually had memes. I had four memes as my, as my pictures on it.

    13. AA

      Okay.

    14. SY

      But I think ... I can't remember if, if Hinge has a, has a selfie feature or not. I can't remember. Anyway-

    15. AA

      Yeah

    16. SY

      ... somebody obviously blocked me. I, I emailed them saying, "I was just testing it out."

    17. AA

      Yeah.

    18. SY

      "I had memes." I clearly had memes on the account, and they just said, "No, thanks." So they, uh-

    19. AA

      So do you think they blocked you for the memes, or they c- they blocked you 'cause they Googled your name and realized?

    20. SY

      I probably ... I would, I would go with the second one.

    21. AA

      Okay.

    22. SY

      I think they, they kind of knew who I was and thought-

    23. AA

      Oh

    24. SY

      ... "Oh, hold up. No, thank you. Bye."

    25. AA

      So let-

    26. SY

      So it's interesting.

    27. AA

      How, how many, how many dating apps are there?

    28. SY

      Oh, there's too many. [laughs]

    29. AA

      [laughs]

    30. SY

      There's too many. Um, you know what? I'd say there's probably, I don't know, eight big ones.

  3. 2:15 – 6:30

    Starting a dating app for the Muslim community

    1. AA

      Like, what was the story there? [laughs]

    2. SY

      You, you know, I'll tell you.

    3. AA

      Yeah.

    4. SY

      You know what? And, and it's one of those things. When you look back, it's just many kind of accidents. Uh, so, you know, to, to give you background, people don't realize Muzmatch is 10 years old. We actually celebrated our 10 ... call it 10-year anniversary a couple of weeks ago. It actually started off just as a random side project. So I was, you know, for those who know, don't know, whatever, uh, I was an investment banker, one of those, um, for about nine years, and I think it was 2011, just me and my team were just, you know, my team were just giving me grief about being single.

    5. AA

      Yeah.

    6. SY

      And obviously, I'm a Muslim guy. I'm a good Muslim boy.

    7. AA

      Of course. [laughs]

    8. SY

      And, you know, which they found hilarious.

    9. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    10. SY

      Um, uh, and I remember they were, you know, were just cracking jokes and, you know, were like different platforms for different religions, and Muzmatch was the Muslim one. And I remember just thinking, "That name is, that name's really good." So I bought the domain. And then just randomly-

    11. AA

      Oh, wait, so you just randomly decided to come up with-

    12. SY

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    13. AA

      ... the phrase Muzmatch just-

    14. SY

      So yeah, yeah, yeah

    15. AA

      ... just from a bance?

    16. SY

      So, so yeah, exactly. Literally, right?

    17. AA

      Okay. Yeah.

    18. SY

      So, uh, people think it was a deep story-

    19. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    20. SY

      ... but it literally was bance to start off with.

    21. AA

      Yeah.

    22. SY

      And, um, uh, and then I remember thinking, um, you know, all my friends were all professional Muslims in, in, in London, and I remember just thinking-

    23. AA

      [laughs] Professional Muslims.

    24. SY

      Yeah, yeah.

    25. AA

      Making money from being Muslim. [laughs]

    26. SY

      You know how it is, right?

    27. AA

      Yeah.

    28. SY

      And they were all like, um, "It's really hard to find someone," blah, blah, blah.

    29. AA

      Yeah.

    30. SY

      And I just remember, you know, I'm, I've always loved technology and, and, and IT and all that kinda stuff. And, uh, I remember thinking what's out there was really terrible. You know, like the websites were pretty crap. Um, you know, a lot of the Muslim ones were ... We were still asking things like, "What's your body shape and how much do you earn?" You know, that, that's where we were at, and I thought, "This is terrible."

  4. 6:30 – 10:48

    How to come up with a business idea

    1. AA

      there's sort of two places where I find that beginners stumble. Number one is I don't know what idea to go for.

    2. SY

      Mm.

    3. AA

      And number two is, once I have an idea, I don't know how to execute on the idea.

    4. SY

      Yep.

    5. AA

      And it sounds like you had the idea of solving a problem that you had personally. Do you have any other thoughts on this whole thing of, like, how do you come up with an idea?

    6. SY

      You know, uh, that's a hard one. I think, you know what, the big problem we have now is we're so busy. You know, I, I was talking about this on a, on a podcast yesterday. Um, you know, and now more than ever, our free time is, like, under assault, right? Every ounce of free time that we have, um, we've got so many reasons to waste it. Netflix, watching stuff, uh, uh, watching TV. There's so much media and stuff to consume that our free time is busy doing stuff. Um, and we don't intentionally just take the time to think about stuff and think about ideas, right? Like, with a piece of paper in your room or whatever, outside, um, um, and actually thinking about an idea, like consciously. Obviously, some- sometimes ideas come randomly, right? You're, you're going for a walk, you're in the shower, whatever, and sometimes they are the best ideas. Uh, but we very rarely actually just sit down and concentrate and think of, you know what, I'm gonna find, I'm gonna think about five problems that I have. And people have asked me this before, and I always say, think just, like, rather than just thinking generically, focus on your own life and, because that's the stuff that you'll relate to and understand hopefully better than anyone else.

    7. AA

      Mm.

    8. SY

      So think about problems that you personally face, whether it's through work, whether it's in a personal situation, whatever, um, that you, whether you have the answer or not, just identify a problem. And then once you've, let's say you've found five problems, um, I, I'm gonna make this up. Imagine you, uh, really like, uh, non-pasteurized milk. A really random idea. [laughs] Super random. But imagine you like pasteurized milk. I hate all the milk that, that gets sent, but I'm not one of these oat person, I'm not gonna do this oat milk stuff. But I really like milk, and I don't like what's out there, right? That's the problem. And maybe you're, maybe you have some weird interest in milk, right? [laughs] This is the most random one.

    9. AA

      [laughs]

    10. SY

      Random whatever. But fine, right, it's a problem. Then the next thing I would be looking at is, okay, um, uh, what's the alternative to what's out there? What kind of, uh, let's say we, we maintain it has to be dairy. What dairy alternative... I'm offending all the vegan people who are watching this far. [laughs]

    11. AA

      [laughs]

    12. SY

      But let's say, what's all the dairy alternatives? And then, you know, obviously there'll be some non-pasteurized version. All right. Who supplies non-pasteurized, uh, milk right now? Is there any mechanism for getting that right now? Probably not. Maybe in London, uh, maybe not. Um, do I think there's enough people who want it? And actually, there's a load of... I, I remember watching some stuff about this. There's a lot of people who are convinced of the natural effects of what's in non-pasteurized milk, right? Straight from the udder-

    13. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    14. SY

      ... almost, right? And they, and they feed it to their kids and stuff 'cause they say there's all this good stuff that, that comes out of it.

    15. AA

      Yeah.

    16. SY

      I know some, whatever, health stuff. Anyway, right? But just going down that whole road of exploring all of that. And maybe you've come across something where you find out, actually, there's a lot of people who are really interested in this, and the big problem is there's no real good supply, and no one's really nailed strong branding around non-pasteurized milk.

    17. AA

      Mm.

    18. SY

      And maybe your brand is straight from the udder, right? [laughs]

    19. AA

      [laughs]

    20. SY

      Udderly ridiculous, right? So something like that.

    21. AA

      Yeah.

    22. SY

      I just feel like, um, you know... And, and this is a te- it's a terrible example, but it's just more that journey of something that I'm really interested in.

    23. AA

      Yeah.

    24. SY

      Something that maybe I'm passionate about, milk. Um, um, um, and something that you think that no one is solving quite right, um, uh, in the way that you would solve it right now.

    25. AA

      Okay. Interesting.

    26. SY

      And then how you explore all that.

    27. AA

      And I guess crucially, it's, that's not to say no one is doing it at all.

    28. SY

      Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. Not at all.

    29. AA

      Because everyone's doing everything.

    30. SY

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  5. 10:48 – 24:47

    Learning how to code

    1. AA

      But you're an investment banker. It's like, it's an unusual skill set-

    2. SY

      Mm

    3. AA

      ... for an investment banker to be able to just build a website.

    4. SY

      Yeah.

    5. AA

      Like, how, how did that happen?

    6. SY

      It's, yeah, good question. And people have asked me this as well. Uh, so I, there's kind of a few principles that I had in my mind at the time. Number one was, uh, and it's weird because when I was building it-

    7. AA

      Mm

    8. SY

      ... I never built it with the intent that this would be a big company and that would have a massive team.

    9. AA

      Yeah.

    10. SY

      You're never thinking like that.

    11. AA

      Yeah.

    12. SY

      You, you have this weird, you have this weird feeling in your head that, obviously, whatever you're working on, you want it to be successful, but you actually don't know what that means. I didn't know what that means. I had no feeling of what success meant. And if I look back, success after one year is, to me, looks very different to success after five years, six years, or whatever-

    13. AA

      Mm

    14. SY

      ... we've been doing it. So, um, um, I would say for me, I always knew that if I was ultimately going to run a tech company, I had to be a techie. I had to be an engineering guy. I had to be able to do all this stuff.

    15. AA

      Okay.

    16. SY

      Because I, I felt it would make me a better CEO or founder.

    17. AA

      So you're an investment banker. Like, where did the idea of being a techie come from?

    18. SY

      So I, I've always loved tech.

    19. AA

      Okay.

    20. SY

      I mean, my degree way back when was computer science.

    21. AA

      Oh.

    22. SY

      But then my, so which was I guess was the seed, right?

    23. AA

      Yeah.

    24. SY

      Um, so I was never scared of coding.

    25. AA

      Okay.

    26. SY

      But that said, for nine years, I didn't really code.

    27. AA

      Yeah.

    28. SY

      Um, I had a few side projects. I actually had a really interesting project, me and a friend, um, we set it up. It was called UniCity.

    29. AA

      Okay.

    30. SY

      And this was early, this is very early Facebook, and, you know, not that everyone said, "Oh, I invented Facebook," before it came out. [laughs]

  6. 24:47 – 27:03

    Dealing with authority

    1. SY

      it. Um-

    2. AA

      What, what, what do you think about it that you were, or what was it about it that you were enjoying, do you reckon?

    3. SY

      Uh, the control.

    4. AA

      Okay.

    5. SY

      I, and y- I remember 'cause I still re- [laughs] I still remember being s- told this, uh, in my Morgan Stanley days, um- ... where I was, so I was a, I was a VP, vice president, whatever, and I was going, I was up for director, executive director-

    6. AA

      Oh

    7. SY

      ... which is the next level, right?

    8. AA

      Hello.

    9. SY

      Yeah, exactly, right. So big boy territory. And I remember, so n- I think at the time, and this was just before the financial crisis, I think, or just after, I can't remember. But, um, and there was kind of a, a, there was a, you know, y- two years was, like, the minimum you could get to director. Um, but generally it was three. And obviously me being me, wanted it after two years. So I was, like, gunning for that. Um, and I didn't get it after two years, and I was fuming, and I was like, "Why?" Like, I felt, you know, at the desk we were performing, I was doing really well, et cetera. And I remember there, you know, I remember being told, you know, like, the o- the, "Your problem basically, Shaz, is you're not professional enough sometimes," which I'm not, uh, and, uh, "you don't respond well to authority." [laughs]

    10. AA

      Oh, okay.

    11. SY

      And I [laughs] , that line stuck with me, 'cause I think it's still true. I don't, and I think pro- my own problem is, and, and, and me, I'm sure there's a, some dose of arrogance in there and, and, um, me being stubborn to some degree. Um, uh, but un- unless I totally, utterly respect and feel that the person who is leading me is all over this, and is super smart, and that's the person I look up to, um, unless I feel that 100%, I'm always like, "What am I doing?"

    12. AA

      Mm.

    13. SY

      Like, like, you know, maybe in some areas I think I can do better than this. Why am I not at that level, you know?

    14. AA

      Yeah.

    15. SY

      And it's an impatience. It's just a natural impatience, you know?

    16. AA

      Yeah.

    17. SY

      Um, a- and part of it was that. A- and I think partly for me, it, it was that lack of control. I hated the, I, you know, at banks there's a lot of process. There's a lot of, "That's the way things are done. These are the hoops you have to jump through," blah. And I hate all that. I'm just like, "Why?"

    18. AA

      Mm.

    19. SY

      You know, "Why am I not just judged on this, which is more black and white?" You know, I deliver this, you give me that.

    20. AA

      Mm-hmm.

    21. SY

      And it never was quite like that. A- and I hate that kind of stuff. Whereas when you have your own business, if it doesn't fail, if it doesn't succeed, that's on you.

    22. AA

      Yeah, yeah.

    23. SY

      You know? Like, you'll, you'll look back at yourself saying, "Yeah, I cut some corners here," or, "I didn't really work hard enough," if you're honest with yourself. Sometimes you do, you work damn hard and it just doesn't work. But at least then you can honestly say, "You know what? I, I genuinely, 100% gave it my all."

    24. AA

      Yeah.

    25. SY

      "And it didn't work," and that's, so be it. You can accept that.

    26. AA

      Yeah.

    27. SY

      I think that was my problem, that I... Or, or that was the one thing I really liked, was I was in total control, and if this succeeded, fantastic. If it failed, it's on me.

    28. AA

      Got it.

    29. SY

      Which is a nice driver. [laughs]

  7. 27:03 – 36:47

    Muzmatch 10 years on (10,000 successful marriages)

    1. AA

      Yeah. So it's now, we're now sort of 10 years into the Muzmatch journey.

    2. SY

      [laughs] Yeah.

    3. AA

      How, how are things going at the moment? Like, what's... How, how, how big is the app, like?

    4. SY

      Oh my God. So t- the boring stats are we're, I think we have four and a half million members now globally.

    5. AA

      Okay.

    6. SY

      Uh, over 100,000 successes, people around the world.

    7. AA

      Really? Over 100,000?

    8. SY

      Yeah, it is crazy.

    9. AA

      Successes at marriages?

    10. SY

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    11. AA

      Really?

    12. SY

      It's, it blows our minds.

    13. AA

      Bloody hell. [laughs]

    14. SY

      We have, we have 300 people a day-

    15. AA

      Yeah

    16. SY

      ... more than, um, who leave the app-

    17. AA

      Yeah

    18. SY

      ... and, and don't come back, and tell us, "Thank you Muzmatch. I met my partner. Don't need you anymore," which is amazing.

    19. AA

      Wow.

    20. SY

      And it's, it blows our mind.

    21. AA

      That's really cool.

    22. SY

      We've had weddings everywhere.

    23. AA

      Yeah.

    24. SY

      I think we've got members in 190 countries. I think North Korea is one country we don't have members in. [laughs]

    25. AA

      [laughs]

    26. SY

      Um, I remember it's an odd, it's an odd point on the-

    27. AA

      Yeah

    28. SY

      ... on, on, on the maps. Um, uh, yeah, as a team we're approaching 60 people now. I think we've hired, like, 25 people-

    29. AA

      Wow

    30. SY

      ... in the last year alone, um, over lockdown and over the whole work from home, um, COVID pandemic, et cetera. Uh, for us, thankfully we've been hitting records. Um, so, uh, actually just last, last week we, uh, last Saturday and last Sunday-

  8. 36:47 – 39:36

    Making marketing work

    1. SY

      people.

    2. AA

      So you had a famous, like, ad campaign on the London Underground.

    3. SY

      Yeah, I love that one.

    4. AA

      What, what was the story behind that? If you just kind of tell people about the Underground

    5. SY

      Yeah, yeah. So the ad was a whole bunch... We actually did four or five, but it was all mo- mostly Muslim puns, uh, puns around that. So, "Halal, is it me you're looking for?"

    6. AA

      Yeah

    7. SY

      Uh, you know, a line of which, the, the OG. Um, uh, "Halal from the other side," famous Adele song. Um, "You had me at halal," uh, Jerry Maguire. Um, there was another, uh, there was one more halal one, I can't think of it. We had one which was, we timed for, um, just after the, uh, we formally, uh, I think, uh, when we were leaving Brexit and all that, uh, when the Brexit vote happened, et cetera, was, um, "It's time to leave the single market."

    8. AA

      [laughs]

    9. SY

      We did that one. Genius.

    10. AA

      Really good.

    11. SY

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, we had one more. There's one that's, that's, that's, that's missing in all this. There was one [laughs] more. Um, can't remember what it was now. Oh, yeah, halal meat, and it was like a... This one, it was a bit, a bit, but it was halal meat, which was a, a steak with, a Cupid steak.

    12. AA

      Oh.

    13. SY

      Halal meat.

    14. AA

      Nice.

    15. SY

      It's in halal meat.

    16. AA

      Yeah. It's a bit risque. [laughs]

    17. SY

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I don't know if that, that one works. But anyway, great ads. Went super viral. We had, like, celebrities, comedians putting it on their socials.

    18. AA

      Yeah

    19. SY

      Really good. Um, uh, I, I, I'm gonna take the credit for those. The, the lines were all mine. Um-

    20. AA

      Nice. [laughs]

    21. SY

      Um, I always felt that if we're gonna do, especially a Tube campaign-

    22. AA

      Yeah, it's got, it's gotta be funny

    23. SY

      ... yeah, it's gotta be good-

    24. AA

      Yeah

    25. SY

      ... and it's gotta be really good.

    26. AA

      Yeah.

    27. SY

      It can't just be average-

    28. AA

      Yeah

    29. SY

      ... 'cause what's the point, right? It's either really good that you get noticed, or forget it.

    30. AA

      Yeah.

  9. 39:36 – 50:24

    Male behaviour on dating apps

    1. SY

      don't know what it is now.

    2. AA

      The biggest complaint I, I hear whenever I mention Muzmatch to people-

    3. SY

      Yeah. [laughs]

    4. AA

      ... is that guys on there are really creepy.

    5. SY

      Yeah. [laughs]

    6. AA

      To what extent is this, like, a problem with the guys versus a problem with the dating industry versus a problem with the app itself? Like-

    7. SY

      I'm, I think I'm s-

    8. AA

      ... what, what's, what's the deal? What do you reckon?

    9. SY

      Yeah. I think I'm still trying to figure out where does the problem lie.

    10. AA

      Yeah.

    11. SY

      Is it us? Is it the community? Is it guys? So I think my conclusion is guys-

    12. AA

      Yeah

    13. SY

      ... are idiots. [laughs]

    14. AA

      Okay.

    15. SY

      Um, I think from everything I've seen, and if you look at, you know, d- forget Muzmatch, if you just look at the general, call it dating apps-

    16. AA

      Mm

    17. SY

      ... the mainstream dating apps, read between the lines, their biggest problem is the behavior of men mostly.

    18. AA

      Really?

    19. SY

      Yeah.

    20. AA

      Okay. Wow. [laughs]

    21. SY

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    22. AA

      Okay. [laughs]

    23. SY

      I mean, I mean, what was the premise of Bumble? It was-

    24. AA

      Yeah, women kind of initiate

    25. SY

      ... not that it was anti-men-

    26. AA

      Yeah

    27. SY

      ... but really it was, um, not happy with the male dynamic, the way men behave, the way men treat women, talk to women, et cetera, et cetera. And their whole branding was all around, uh, uh, the female perspective, right?

    28. AA

      Yeah.

    29. SY

      Um, and it's, it, it's a great branding talking point-

    30. AA

      Mm

  10. 50:24 – 52:06

    Muzmatch and religion

    1. SY

      asked, "Did you have loads of pushback when we launched Muzmatch?" You know, is this... You know, because at the time, remember, mainstream dating apps were, were, were quite-

    2. AA

      Yeah, it's pretty rogue

    3. SY

      ... they were quite taboo, right?

    4. AA

      Yeah.

    5. SY

      It was like, uh, a bit, you know, whatever. And, and they had a bad rep.

    6. AA

      Yeah.

    7. SY

      I think that rep has improved over time, and it's become the norm, um, now obviously, whereas for us, just the fact that we were an app, a dating app for Muslims was like, whoa.

    8. AA

      Yeah.

    9. SY

      How haram is this, right?

    10. AA

      Exactly, yeah.

    11. SY

      Or, but then, and w- you know, thankfully, we've been super successful, right?

    12. AA

      Yeah.

    13. SY

      Um, um, and, and I think p- you know, we've been successful because the need was clearly there. And people always, "Oh, did you have a lot of pushback?" And I remember thinking I would, and genuinely, I don't think we've had as big a pushback as I thought we would by religious community or whatever.

    14. AA

      Yeah.

    15. SY

      And I think, A, because, um, the need is clearly there, number one.

    16. AA

      Mm.

    17. SY

      But I think, B, because no one's solved it. If they haven't solved it-

    18. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    19. SY

      ... you know, they haven't figured out... Like, there's a big crisis in the Muslim community of-

    20. AA

      Yeah

    21. SY

      ... how do you get the young Muslims married, and how do they stay married, right?

    22. AA

      Yeah.

    23. SY

      And you can hark on about the old ways of doing things, but unless you come up with something that works-

    24. AA

      Mm

    25. SY

      ... and that i- is approachable for young people and talks to them in a voice that works, you're wasting your time.

    26. AA

      Yeah.

    27. SY

      And I think up till now, we have... Religious, the religious community haven't done this because it's difficult, and it's messy.

    28. AA

      Yeah.

    29. SY

      You know, talking about I would love for mainstream religious elders and speakers to talk about how to navigate online as a Muslim.

    30. AA

      Yeah.

  11. 52:06 – 54:35

    What do Muslim girls look for in men?

    1. AA

      So changing gears slightly.

    2. SY

      Yes.

    3. AA

      Um, you presumably have access to a ton, like-

    4. SY

      Yeah

    5. AA

      ... z- zillions of data points around-

    6. SY

      Yeah

    7. AA

      ... kind of preferences-

    8. SY

      Yeah

    9. AA

      ... men preferences, women preferences, and so on. Do you have like a list of w- what are the things that a Muslim girl-

    10. SY

      [laughs]

    11. AA

      ... is looking for in a Muslim guy? Asking for a friend. [laughs]

    12. SY

      Uh, I thought it was a, a doctor, YouTuber-

    13. AA

      [laughs]

    14. SY

      ... was the, was top of the list I thought. [laughs] No. Um, uh, profession, probably I would say.

    15. AA

      Profession is the main one?

    16. SY

      Yeah. I would say it's probably the biggest one. Um, I don't wanna say stroke income. Um-

    17. AA

      Oh, okay.

    18. SY

      Uh-

    19. AA

      Interesting

    20. SY

      ... but income no doubt is important.

    21. AA

      Okay.

    22. SY

      Uh, and I've, I've heard that, and I've seen it, so whether you imply that by profession-

    23. AA

      Yeah

    24. SY

      ... uh, is part of it. Uh, but I actually think part of it comes down to actually there is, there is a gap between Muslim men and Muslim women. I think Muslim women are academically and professionally-

    25. AA

      Yeah

    26. SY

      ... way ahead-

    27. AA

      Yeah

    28. SY

      ... than Muslim men.

    29. AA

      Definitely.

    30. SY

      And we-

  12. 54:35 – 59:31

    The art of a conversation & designing your profile

    1. SY

      the final one.

    2. AA

      How, how do girls define weird?

    3. SY

      So you know what? I, and, and I've seen this because I have sometimes the misfortune of actually reading Muzmatch chats-

    4. AA

      Okay

    5. SY

      ... um, particularly when something gets reported.

    6. AA

      Yes.

    7. SY

      Um, uh, def- definitely there's a, there's an art to a conversation-

    8. AA

      Okay

    9. SY

      ... no doubt, right? Um, there's an art to how to hold a conversation, how to-

    10. AA

      Mm

    11. SY

      ... ask the right questions, how, you know, just how to carry a conversation, and I think a lot of Muslim men, um, aren't very good at it.

    12. AA

      Okay.

    13. SY

      You know? It's very either... Uh, and don't me wrong, I actually think Muslim women to some degree as well.

    14. AA

      Mm.

    15. SY

      But sometimes it can be very tick boxy, you know? Because you're on, you know, you're on a platform like ours, Muzmatch-

    16. AA

      Yeah

    17. SY

      ... you're, you're out there to find the person you're gonna marry, right? And no doubt most likely you have this criteria in your head.

    18. AA

      Yeah.

    19. SY

      And for some people, they're straight on the criteria-

    20. AA

      Oh, so you're like-

    21. SY

      ... from day, from, from the start

    22. AA

      ... Salam Sister, I'm looking for ABC.

    23. SY

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like-

    24. AA

      People will be like, "Weird."

    25. SY

      Yeah, it's like too much-

    26. AA

      Okay

    27. SY

      ... too soon, right?

    28. AA

      Yeah.

    29. SY

      You know, if you look at it, probably the first thing you wanna see is kind of just am I just interested in this person?

    30. AA

      Yeah.

  13. 59:31 – 1:03:21

    When it someone ready?

    1. AA

      w- do you have any, uh, thoughts on, for example-

    2. SY

      Mm

    3. AA

      ... a 23-year-old Muslim girl-

    4. SY

      Yeah

    5. AA

      ... and a 23-year-old Muslim guy are in very different places when it comes to-

    6. SY

      Yes

    7. AA

      ... intent of, for marriage.

    8. SY

      Yeah.

    9. AA

      Do you have a, a theory on what is the ideal-

    10. SY

      Mm

    11. AA

      ... age gap to get to, you know, what, what age is the man to be at the same level as, like, a 25-year-old woman, for example?

    12. SY

      I think... Uh, this is, this is hard. Um-

    13. AA

      Yeah

    14. SY

      ... being gen- being very general in my opinion here, I would say I think m- men do no doubt take longer. [laughs]

    15. AA

      Yeah.

    16. SY

      It is. We take longer to cook. Um, uh, even if I just look back at myself-

    17. AA

      Mm

    18. SY

      ... I think it was after about 27, 28, where even I felt that I had matured in some way.

    19. AA

      Yeah.

    20. SY

      People still say I'm not mature, by the way, but anyway.

    21. AA

      Yeah.

    22. SY

      Where I felt I'd matured, I think, uh, job-wise I was in a better place.

    23. AA

      Yeah.

    24. SY

      I felt like I'd figured things out a little bit more of life or whatever, or even about me or what I was doing. Um, and I think I was just a lot more attuned to, you know, not necessarily what it's like to be in a relationship, but, but this whole dynamic of meeting som- someone and talking to them and getting to know them, this whole thing. Whereas if I look at myself before then, I think I was very immature. I... You're not consciously thinking about it with a, with a grown-up mentality.

    25. AA

      Okay.

    26. SY

      I think you're quite young then. So I do think-

    27. AA

      What do you mean by a grown-up mentality?

    28. SY

      As in understanding the, call it... I'd say understanding the longer term consequences of things that you say and do.

    29. AA

      Okay. Interesting.

    30. SY

      Um, you have... You, you don't remotely think like that.

  14. 1:03:21 – 1:08:56

    Do looks matter?

    1. SY

      [laughs]

    2. AA

      Fair play. Um, another thing I'm curious about, how popular is the blurred photos feature? And like, because, because, because that's interesting. That-

    3. SY

      Mm

    4. AA

      ... that was like a novel thing when you guys introduced it.

    5. SY

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    6. AA

      So like, what, what's the story on that?

    7. SY

      Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think when I last checked, something like 20% of women-

    8. AA

      Okay

    9. SY

      ... um, and 5% of men.

    10. AA

      Okay.

    11. SY

      [clears throat] It used to be a female only feature.

    12. AA

      Okay.

    13. SY

      And then we had, um, um, and then we had, uh, quite a few men, uh, particularly in the community who were, let's say, well-known, who wanted to be private.

    14. AA

      Yeah.

    15. SY

      And I was like, actually, I can understand even as a guy if you wanna be private-

    16. AA

      Yeah

    17. SY

      ... and use the platform. So therefore, um, uh, you should be able to have it. So anyway, both genders can decide to choose to, to blur their photos. And then we went on a whole new, a whole journey of how do you unblur photos.

    18. AA

      Mm.

    19. SY

      Do you both unblur when it matches? Can only one s- does, does the male photos unblur-

    20. AA

      Mm

    21. SY

      ... and then the women can, uh, unblur afterwards?

    22. AA

      Yeah.

    23. SY

      We changed it about 10 times.

    24. AA

      Okay.

    25. SY

      And we, I don't think we've fully... Uh, in the end, we resorted to, we just leave it to you guys. You can decide who, who wants to unblur when. You can blur it back again if you want, and fine. Yeah, so we've been on, we've been on this whole journey of, of figuring out how to unblur the photos once you've blurred it, right?

    26. AA

      Yeah.

    27. SY

      But anyway, we actually did, we actually did some, uh, analysis on what's the effect of how blurred photos did this-

    28. AA

      Oh, yeah, that was gonna be my next question.

    29. SY

      Yeah, yeah.

    30. AA

      Like, okay.

  15. 1:08:56 – 1:12:16

    Transforming how Muslims meet and marry

    1. SY

      you know, genuinely.

    2. AA

      How, how, how does it feel? B- b- because, like, you know, 100,000 weddings have happened-

    3. SY

      Mm

    4. AA

      ... because of the app.

    5. SY

      Mm.

    6. AA

      That's a lot. Like-

    7. SY

      It's a lot

    8. AA

      ... you as an individual are having a needle-moving impact-

    9. SY

      [laughs]

    10. AA

      ... on- [laughs]

    11. SY

      The birth rate

    12. AA

      ... like... Yeah. [laughs]

    13. SY

      [laughs] Which for Muslims is already high.

    14. AA

      [laughs]

    15. SY

      Uh, no, you're right. It is-

    16. AA

      That, that's gotta be weird, right? [laughs]

    17. SY

      You know what? I'll tell you, the way, the weirdest and satisfying, most satisfying feeling I had was once I was on the DLR, the t- the train, uh, for those that don't know in, in kind of... I was on the train and, um, the guy on the seat in front of me was on Muzmatch.

    18. AA

      Mm.

    19. SY

      And I just happened to just, like, look over and I saw-

    20. AA

      Yeah

    21. SY

      ... I was like, "Hold up, that's Muzmatch."

    22. AA

      Yeah.

    23. SY

      And trust me, the feeling I had was, like, what? Like, that's when it hit me when I was like-

    24. AA

      Yeah

    25. SY

      ... "Wow, like, this is..." It sounds weird, but it's real.

    26. AA

      Yeah.

    27. SY

      Like, people use it in their own time and they-

    28. AA

      Mm

    29. SY

      ... you know, they're getting use out of it. They're getting value out of it. Um, and definitely, you know, the number... Like, I remember once I was at this event and this, um, she's like a matchmaker, quite well-known in the community, and she came up to me and she was like, um, "Shahz, you know you're putting me out of business here 'cause, like..." And she was like for real. She was like-

    30. AA

      Oh

Episode duration: 1:12:16

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