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Ali’s new “less optimized” podcast format and why community is the topic
Ali sets up an experimental episode format focused on learning rather than growth tactics. He frames the conversation around the rising wave of creators building paid communities and invites Jay to share what’s worked in his business.
- •Ali explains he’s shifting the show toward “cool conversations” and away from optimization
- •Ali tees up the focus: creators, communities, and the new community-driven business model
- •Jay signals community has been transformative for his business and members
Jay’s background: from startup product thinking to “content is a product”
Jay traces his path from a traditional career expectation into entrepreneurship through exposure to peers building businesses. He explains how software product work led him to view writing and content as a controllable product, which became the foundation of his current work.
- •Jay grew up expecting a conventional career path and discovered entrepreneurship in college
- •He initially equated entrepreneurship with tech startups and worked in software
- •Around 2017 he reframed writing as a product with more creative control than software
- •He became known for analytically breaking down how content businesses work
How Jay first monetized: freelancing, group coaching, and productizing into courses
Jay describes early revenue coming from selling time through services and freelancing, while running a mastermind-style group coaching program. Repetition in coaching led him to productize teachings into courses, helped by an earlier opportunity authoring for LinkedIn Learning.
- •Early income came from WordPress work and email copywriting tied to funnels
- •He ran a group coaching/mastermind program and noticed repeated guidance
- •He productized the repeated material into a course
- •LinkedIn Learning course authoring made creating his own courses feel feasible
- •He built an email audience first and waited longer than he wanted to do social/YouTube
The “coaching creators” trap and why most creator businesses are niche
Ali and Jay address the perception that creators only make money by teaching other creators. Jay argues the creator business model is widespread across highly specific niches, and that there may be bigger opportunity in serving niche audiences than in the meta “creators teaching creators” space.
- •Ali notes outsiders may think the only monetization path is coaching other creators
- •Jay explains niche creators often live on platforms audiences may not see (e.g., Instagram)
- •Jay shares examples of highly specific niches within his membership
- •Jay acknowledges discomfort with the meta nature but emphasizes delivering real results
The Lab’s origin story: from Slack-era group coaching to launching a new membership
Jay walks through how his first community formed around a 2017 coaching program using Zoom and Slack, long before it was common. He recounts consulting on and later leading an online community team, then returning to build his own membership and rebranding it into The Lab to fit the “science” theme.
- •Jay used Slack and Zoom for community in 2017 and had to teach people the tools
- •A local connection led to consulting on an online community launch during the pandemic
- •He later led a community team for a year before choosing to bet on his own business
- •He launched his own community in March 2022, originally named Creative Companion Club
- •The community rebranded to The Lab to match Creator Science and emphasize experimentation
Community as the new hot trend—and why many will fail
Ali compares community to past “make money online” fads and asks whether it’s the new dropshipping. Jay predicts a wave of poorly run communities will create disillusionment, and says the goal is to build one of the few communities members can’t imagine leaving.
- •Ali frames communities as the current “hot, sexy” online business play
- •Jay predicts saturation will create many bad community experiences
- •He expects members will pare down to one or two communities after burnout
- •Jay’s strategic goal: be the community that survives because it’s indispensable
What members really want: connection, transformation, and identity (not just content)
Jay explains the underlying value people seek from communities beyond lessons and resources. He outlines three core benefits—connection, transformation, and identity—then clarifies that while content can support transformation, stickiness often comes from relationships and self-concept.
- •Jay says people crave connection as social creatures, especially as offline life changes
- •Transformation is the most tangible promise: moving from point A to point B
- •Identity forms when people learn who they are through a powerful experience
- •Ali reflects on being surprised that his course community was what people praised most
- •Jay argues retention often depends more on connection/identity than content alone
Ali’s “Peloton for productivity” vision and the operational constraints
Ali describes wanting a facilitated, habit-forming productivity experience rather than more information—weekly reviews, planning sessions, and co-working that gets people to actually do the work. He also shares constraints: it shouldn’t consume huge amounts of his time, and he’s wary of unled accountability groups that collapse.
- •Ali’s premise: many people don’t need more tips; they need structured follow-through
- •He proposes recurring facilitated routines plus Zoom co-working that lands on calendars
- •He connects the idea to past co-working success and the appeal of pre-commitment
- •He wants low lift from him personally and prefers a guided, ‘benevolent dictator’ model
- •He’s skeptical of peer-run accountability groups based on past negative experiences
Avoiding the biggest trap: overpromising delivery details on the sales page
Jay warns that many memberships fail by locking themselves into rigid programming promises that become burdensome later. He recommends keeping the promise strong while staying intentionally vague about delivery details, preserving flexibility to adjust programming based on what actually works.
- •Jay cautions against making granular delivery the centerpiece of the offer
- •He highlights the long-term risk: what feels doable for months may be unsustainable later
- •He argues the offer should emphasize outcomes, not exact weekly schedules
- •Ali connects it to his own experience being stuck delivering sales-page promises
- •Jay suggests using success stories to support the promise rather than feature-stacking
Annual vs monthly, and designing for recurring value (not a one-time outcome)
Jay supports longer billing cycles when the promised outcome takes time and explains that offering monthly churn creates churn. He also warns that recurring revenue requires recurring value; if the experience is designed to reach a single finish line, members may naturally leave once they reach it.
- •Jay: if you create the opportunity for churn, some people will churn
- •He urges aligning billing cadence with time needed to achieve results
- •Jay notes recurring revenue demands a clear mechanism for recurring value
- •He warns against designing a community like a course that ends at a specific outcome
- •Ali considers pairing flexibility with transparency that the experience will evolve
Jay’s launch playbook and his “trust-first” approach to sales pages
Jay outlines a “private opening, public launch” strategy to recruit early members who already trust the creator, then use their outcomes and stories for the public sales page. He also describes his preference for building trust and leaning heavily on testimonials—especially video—rather than aggressive copy frameworks.
- •Jay recommends a private opening to experiment without big public promises
- •Early members’ results become the proof for a later public launch
- •Jay describes his “no-sell selling” style and preference for trust over agitation
- •He argues third-party proof is often more persuasive than seller language
- •Ali and Jay discuss video testimonials as harder to fake and more believable
Pricing, caps, and market fit: relationship-led vs programming-led communities
Jay explains how pricing and scalability depend on whether the community is relationship-driven or content/programming-driven. They discuss Ali’s broad target audience, willingness-to-pay assumptions, and the trade-offs between higher ticket/lower volume versus broader access/lower price.
- •Jay suggests modeling pricing scenarios and member counts before deciding
- •He contrasts relationship-led communities (harder to scale) with programming-led ones
- •Ali outlines audience buckets (professionals, side hustlers, entrepreneurs) and goals
- •Jay challenges assumptions by pointing out people already ‘pay’ with time for Ali’s content
- •They debate $300/year vs $1,000/year, operational overhead, and brand positioning
Tiered access, onboarding excellence, and designing spaces/events that don’t overwhelm
Jay proposes a possible path: start higher ticket, learn what works, then expand access via tiers. He emphasizes onboarding as the make-or-break moment—hand-holding, clear next steps, and timely responses—plus keeping spaces minimal and designing events so members know how to participate successfully.
- •Jay suggests starting with higher ticket to learn, then offering a lower-price tier later
- •He warns communities often fail by under-baking the first experience after purchase
- •He details his onboarding flow: guided steps, profile setup, onboarding course, and messages
- •He stresses responsiveness and timely help as a key differentiator
- •They discuss keeping spaces minimal, adding slowly via voting, and avoiding overwhelm from too many events
Common community mistakes: ignored intros, misaligned member stages, and too much content
Jay highlights failure points that create bad early experiences: introductions that get no replies, and communities mixing people across too many experience stages so conversation defaults to beginner needs. They also discuss the temptation to add endless spaces and content, and why “more” can reduce participation and perceived value.
- •Jay warns that intro posts without welcome responses create immediate rejection feelings
- •He recommends removing intro prompts if you can’t reliably welcome people
- •He argues wide skill-stage mixes can push conversations to beginner level, alienating advanced members
- •Jay notes pricing alone doesn’t fully filter fit; screening may be needed for best communities
- •He cautions that excessive programming/content can reduce urgency and increase overwhelm
Platforms and consolidation: why permissioned access can break the experience in Circle
Ali asks whether to consolidate multiple products into one big community with different access levels. Jay shares his experience that permissioning in Circle can create usability and privacy issues, and explains why he would keep separate spaces unless members have full access to the same experience.
- •Ali considers merging YouTuber Academy and Productivity Lab into one umbrella community
- •Jay explains he tried permissioned tiers and found parts of Circle became unusable
- •He gives examples: global banners visible to everyone, and member directory visibility concerns
- •Jay prefers either full access or separate spaces for different offerings
- •They note interest groups and joinable spaces can become complicated under permissioning
Closing: starting small, building culture with live programming, and where to find Jay
Jay closes with guidance for those without a big audience: start with as few as five to ten people and lean on real-time sessions to build connection and culture. Ali wraps up with thanks, and Jay shares where to learn more about his work and an offer for listeners.
- •Jay says you only need five to ten people to start a community
- •He recommends live programming early to turn profiles into real relationships
- •He ties slow growth to stronger culture and better retention
- •Ali asks for beginner tips and then invites Jay to share where to learn more
- •Jay directs people to his website and a dedicated link for Deep Dive listeners
Publisher timestamps
- 0:00Intro
- 1:01How Jay started
- 7:15The history of “The Lab”
- 9:55Community vs content
- 15:35About Productivity Lab
- 25:45The challenges
- 33:40Jay’s approach to sales pages
- 36:30Price: to cap or not to cap
- 46:30Higher ticket, lower volume?
- 52:40How many people to bring into the community
- 1:02:40Spaces within the community
- 1:07:05Mistakes we can learn from
- 1:10:00Giving recurring value
- 1:21:00The importance of a good first experience
