Life Coach: Why Your Energy Drives Your Success In Life - Simon Alexander Ong

Simon Alexander Ong 0:00 I remember working with a client recently and she said to me, "I'm finding it challenging to get clients." And I said to her, "I want you to get me 50 nos." What she didn't know is that if she was to do this exercise properly, she would never get to 50 nos.

Ali Abdaal 0:14 What you're about to hear is an interview between me and my friend Simon Alexander Ong. I know Simon quite well, so I gave him a bit of a hard time around this because I think often it's easy to view coaches and life coaches and stuff as being a bit scammy and like, "What the hell is this?" Kind of it's an unregulated industry, anyone can become a coach. But as you'll hear in the conversation, like, just Simon's responses to all of my attempts at giving him a hard time are just so good.

Simon Alexander Ong 0:34 What did success mean to me and what sort of impact did I want to have in the world? And after searching in different areas and fields, I ended up coming back to the fact that I really enjoyed helping people.

Ali Abdaal 0:44 Simon has just released this book, Energize, which is genuinely really good, Make the Most of Every Moment. And I'm just gonna read you out a little bit of his bio. Simon Alexander Ong is a personal development entrepreneur, coach, and public speaker. His clients are from all walks of life, but they share one trait: they all believe that the greatest investment you can make is in yourself.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:01 The first sale which few of us actually focus on is selling ourself to ourself.

Ali Abdaal 1:05 In this conversation, we basically talk about the idea of what it's like to be a personal development entrepreneur and a coach. I went away from the conversation, like, genuinely so inspired because I was just so impressed by the way Simon responded to all of the issues that I tried to throw at him.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:19 So if you could pick five to six individuals, dead or alive, who could be your counsel, who would they be?

Ali Abdaal 1:24 I hope you enjoy this conversation between me and Simon Alexander Ong. At the moment, according to YouTube analytics, 81% of you who are watching this on YouTube have not yet hit the subscribe button. And so if you're, for example, in the now 81% of people who are watching this on YouTube but who are not subscribed to the channel, I would love it if you could do so, and it would be awesome to get that number down to 50%, and it would be cool to get, like, 50/50 sub/non-sub ratio just, just for fun. Right, Simon, thank you so

Ali Abdaal 1:49 much for coming on the podcast. Um, we've known each other for a couple years now, first through the mastermind that we were on in Zoom and then knowing each other in real life. And one thing that I've always wanted to ask you is, um, around your, I guess, your tagline. Like, the, the labels that you introduce yourself with, at least in the book, Simon Alexander Ong is a personal development entrepreneur, coach, and public speaker. And initially I, I would like... And, and this would've been, like, two years ago when we first met over Zoom. I wasn't really sure what that meant. And in my mind, like, coach was associated with some kind of bullshit artist kind of vibe.

Simon Alexander Ong 2:20 Mm. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 2:20 Like, what, what even is a professional coach? And over time, I, you know, personal development entrepreneur, I th- I think that's kind of what I am now, and sort of am, am I a bullshit artist? Like, what are-

Simon Alexander Ong 2:29 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 2:30 Uh, y- yeah. And so, and so I'd, I'd love to start with, like, how, how did you end up becoming a coach? Like, what even is a coach? Like, how, how did we get here?

Simon Alexander Ong 2:37 I was like your, yourself, Ali. I didn't know what a coach was, uh, in terms of professional coaching. For me, my understanding went as far as sports. You know, if you were going into coaching, you were going to coach a sports team or you were going to train to go in a field and perform at your best. I didn't know you could have it in the world of professional work. I actually had my first exposure to coaching, I didn't really know it was coaching at the time, when I was at university. So while most students went to work at a, a local retailer or a, or a department store, I actually met a guy called Peter Harrison. He was doing a talk at the London School of Economics, and he had just quit his job at Goldman Sachs to start a career coaching business.

Ali Abdaal 3:18 Career coaching. Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 3:18 And he, he came up to me and said, "Simon, I like the way you present yourself, and I like the way that you come across. Would you be interested in teaching students how to get a job in the city? I.e., how can they interview better? How can they present in order to wow the people in the room?" And I said, "Well, how much are you paying?"

Ali Abdaal 3:39 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 3:39 And he offered me good money, and so on the side of studying at university, I started helping students get into university.

Ali Abdaal 3:45 Hmm. Hmm. How much are we talking? [laughs]

Simon Alexander Ong 3:46 So [laughs] not, not enough that was life-changing-

Ali Abdaal 3:49 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 3:49 ... but, but enough to upkeep my student lifestyle-

Ali Abdaal 3:52 Okay

Simon Alexander Ong 3:52 ... uh, so to speak. And I continued that into the world of finance.

Ali Abdaal 3:55 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 3:56 I did that on the side. While initially I did it for the money, I started to continue doing it even though I didn't need to do it when I started in the world of finance purely because I got enjoyment and fulfillment from seeing people send me a message back on their phone saying, "Simon, I just landed that offer. Simon, I got my third job offer."

Ali Abdaal 4:14 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 4:14 But I never knew that I could pursue a career in that. I thought it was just a nice way to make some pocket money. And then, of course, the financial crisis happened, and that prompted me to ask some deep questions about my future, because I'd only gone into the world of finance because I felt that was what would make me successful. So I started asking myself things such as, what did success mean to me and what sort of impact did I want to have in the world? And after searching in different areas and fields, I ended up coming back to the fact that I really enjoyed helping people. I was that sort of person, Ali, where people, when they had a challenge or a dilemma or a big question that they wanted perspective about, they would come to me, but I didn't know I could make money from it until I went to a two-day event. It was all about coaching. It was about how you could get qualifications to apply this skill, uh, into helping people you worked with, and that's really where it began.

Ali Abdaal 5:08 So i- is it kinda like being a teacher but you're not teaching, like, maths or history, you're teaching what? Like-

Simon Alexander Ong 5:16 Yes.

Ali Abdaal 5:16 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 5:16 I would be careful with the, the definition here.

Ali Abdaal 5:19 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 5:19 I think when we teach, we're more of a mentor.

Ali Abdaal 5:22 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 5:22 Uh, so for example, if I wanted to develop my speaking, I might seek out somebody who is far more experienced than me in the public speaking world, and so he or she would be my mentor because I could learn a lot from them. Uh, they could guide me. They could teach me. Coaching is less about telling you what to do and more about guiding you back to what you already know through the power of questions. You, you know, often we, we hear the saying that goes, "Want a better answer? Ask a better question." And so coaching's all about asking the right question in the right moment to uncover the path forward for your client.

Ali Abdaal 5:57 Okay. So

Ali Abdaal 5:59 who is the sort of person that might have a coach or might hire you as their coach?

Simon Alexander Ong 6:04 Sure. So in the past it was probably Exclusively in the domain of C-suite executives, so people at the higher echelons of management. Nowadays, it's become far more accessible. So if we're, we're looking at coaching generally, then it's people who want to move ahead in life, uh, people who have an exciting future in their mind, but they don't quite know how to get there, and they need a bit of challenge. You know, if we are the only one holding us accountable, then likely we can procrastinate.

Ali Abdaal 6:32 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 6:32 We can move the goalposts. But when there is a coach we're working with, we are challenged to become better than who we were yesterday, and our perspective is questioned, and we're forced to see things from a different perspective. To give an example, I remember working with a client recently, and she said to me, "I'm finding it challenging to get clients for my business." And I said to her, "How many conversations have you had in the last few weeks?" And she said, "Just a few." And I said, "That's where we're gonna begin. And my challenge to you is in the next 90 days, I want you to get me 50 nos." Get me 50 nos. That was her challenge. Me as a coach, I was holding her accountable through this challenge. But what she didn't know is that if she was to do this exercise properly, she would never get to 50 nos because what happens is the more we put ourself out there, the more chances for that yes. And I remember she dropped me a WhatsApp, uh, shortly after and said, "Simon, I don't think I'm gonna get to 50 nos." And part of me was smiling in my head and I said, "Tell me why." And she said, "I've just got my sixth yes." And so that's part of what coaching is about. It's to believe in the person often before they can believe in themselves, and it is a gift to have someone in your corner like that.

Ali Abdaal 7:50 Hmm. How does one find a coach?

Simon Alexander Ong 7:53 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 7:54 And like, uh, so, uh, like, uh, I- I'm for example know a bunch of people who are like, um, you know, m- maybe they've got a job that they don't particularly enjoy-

Simon Alexander Ong 8:03 Mm

Ali Abdaal 8:03 ... like it's fine and they're holding it out until the next promotion or whatever, and they know they wanna maybe start a side hustle or start a business on the side. They don't really know where to start, and it's like-

Simon Alexander Ong 8:11 Mm

Ali Abdaal 8:11 ... and they'll come to me for advice being like, "Where do I start?" And I'm like, "Ugh, um, I mean, have you read "The 4-Hour Workweek" and then "F.I.R.E. Sleep"? I mean, I, I can recommend a few books, but I've, I've never once thought, "Oh, you should hire a coach."

Simon Alexander Ong 8:24 Hmm.

Ali Abdaal 8:25 Um, 'cause like in my-- and e- even though I've had coaches for the last two years, it, that, that's not a thing that connects. Whereas if someone came into me and said, "How do I get better at tennis?" I was like, "Hire a tennis coach."

Simon Alexander Ong 8:33 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 8:33 Obviously, that's just a no-brainer. Um, yeah, so w- where does one get started if one might, might wanna find a coach? How, how does that work?

Simon Alexander Ong 8:39 Sure. Well, the great thing about today's environment is that we can find a coach from a multitude of different platforms, so whether it is online, whether it is through a referral, an introduction, or simply hopping onto Google. Now, as with anything, before you invest in a coach, it's important to get a feel for what that person is like. Uh, and that's why you should seek out an experience, and that is why when I, when I work with younger coaches who are looking to build their business, I always say, "The greatest gift you can give people before they sign up to you as a client is to give them an experience of what coaching is about," because coaching is very hard to explain to someone who has never gone through the experience.

Ali Abdaal 9:19 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 9:19 And so when you can invite somebody to have a powerful conversation, that's when they walk out of the room and said, "I need coaching."

Ali Abdaal 9:27 So is that like a sort of free, free trial kind of thing, like-

Simon Alexander Ong 9:29 Exactly.

Ali Abdaal 9:30 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 9:30 Exactly. It's where you give them experience of what coaching can have on them and the actions that they take.

Ali Abdaal 9:35 Okay. So it's like when I went to the gym and I was like, "I'm looking for a personal trainer," they were like, "Oh, we'll s- we'll set you up with a free session with one of our guys, and if you like it, you can talk about it."

Simon Alexander Ong 9:44 Totally. It's like a trial.

Ali Abdaal 9:45 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 9:45 I mean, if you look at business in general, nearly every business starts with a trial. You, you know, if you sign up to a online platform, chances are it'll be the 30-day free trial and then you're upsold to become a, uh, become a member with a subscription. This is how it works. If you like the experience, what happens is you're more likely to want to invest in it. But it's very difficult if you haven't gone through that. And when I first started building my coaching practice, I just went out to as many events as I could to meet people. And when I heard that they were going through a challenge or there was an opportunity for me to help, I simply said to them, "What are you doing next week? Would you be interested in having a powerful conversation together?"

Ali Abdaal 10:21 [laughs] Powerful conversation.

Simon Alexander Ong 10:23 And that's it.

Ali Abdaal 10:23 Okay. Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 10:23 I, I just stopped it there.

Ali Abdaal 10:24 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 10:24 And if it was a yes, uh, we would then have a meeting at my office-

Ali Abdaal 10:28 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 10:28 ... and we would just dive deep, uh, to really understand what was going in their mind.

Ali Abdaal 10:33 So is it that, like, any kind of challenge, or is it, like, domain specific? Is it like, "Oh, I'm struggling to generate leads for my business," or, "My relationship is falling apart," or, "I'm struggling to make Facebook ads." Like what, what level of tactical versus, um, abstract are we talking?

Simon Alexander Ong 10:47 Sure. So for me, it, it would always begin at the broad level, uh, because unless you can address the broad issues, there's no point focusing on the tactical.

Ali Abdaal 10:55 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 10:55 Because you can give someone all the tactical know-how, but if they don't have the baseline energy or the mindset or the resources in place, they're not gonna put it into action. You know, we can just, we can go onto Google, we can go onto YouTube. There's all the tactical stuff on there. But the thing is very few people apply it. Now, there has to be a reason why we don't apply it, and so for me to tackle things at that level because then everything just flows from, from that point.

Ali Abdaal 11:19 Okay. So let's say you were to come up to me at one of these events and-- So I'm, I'm not, I'm not gonna use myself right now as an example-

Simon Alexander Ong 11:28 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 11:28 ... because I think it's, it's p- potentially unrelatable to most people. But like, l- let's say it's I've-- you've, you've come to me at an event and maybe I am a year into my full-time job as a doctor, and I'm not really sure if it's for me. And you and I are talking, and y- how, how would that conversation at the event go? Like-

Simon Alexander Ong 11:46 Sure.

Ali Abdaal 11:46 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 11:46 So it depends. Chances are when we meet-

Ali Abdaal 11:49 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 11:49 ... guaranteed the first question you will probably ask me, because we don't know each other-

Ali Abdaal 11:53 Yeah. What do you-

Simon Alexander Ong 11:53 ... would be, "Simon, what do you do?"

Ali Abdaal 11:55 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 11:55 Now, how I respond to that is by giving what I call a trailer.

Ali Abdaal 12:00 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 12:00 Uh, so when you go to the cinema-

Ali Abdaal 12:02 Yep

Simon Alexander Ong 12:02 ... before you have the main feature film, you have a series of around five or six trailers. A trailer is very powerful because most of us respond with a title. So I'm an accountant, I'm an engineer, I'm an entrepreneur. Unfortunately, when we respond with a title, humans tend to box that into-

Ali Abdaal 12:20 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 12:20 ... certain judgments. So if I say I'm an accountant, most people might think I'm boring or, "How can I move on to the next person? Why did I get stuck in this conversation?" So I would first respond with a trailer, something like, "Everything I do is to awaken people's imagination of what is truly possible so they can live a better story."

Ali Abdaal 12:38 [laughs] Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 12:38 Now what happens... Or a variant of that. Uh, and now what happens is that-

Ali Abdaal 12:42 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 12:42 ... chances are they get curious.

Ali Abdaal 12:44 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 12:44 They're like, "Well, tell me more."

Ali Abdaal 12:46 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 12:46 And that is the purpose, because when I deliver a trailer-

Ali Abdaal 12:49 Okay

Simon Alexander Ong 12:49 ... they now wanna watch the full film.

Ali Abdaal 12:51 Love that.

Simon Alexander Ong 12:51 So in this case, the film is my product or service. They get interested.

Ali Abdaal 12:55 Do you, do you not feel like... How, how did you get okay with just saying that, completely sincerely? Like,

Ali Abdaal 13:01 this is one of the things I li- I like about you. Like, uh, and s- and, and in the book as well, just-

Simon Alexander Ong 13:04 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 13:05 ... a lot of the stuff, like, with a cynical glance could be seen as a bit, like, woo-woo, especially the whole energy thing.

Simon Alexander Ong 13:10 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 13:10 And you're just so sincere about it. Like, were you always like this, or did you have to overcome the cringe response to asking a question of, "What do you do?" Rather than saying, "I'm a coach," with the trailer thing?

Simon Alexander Ong 13:20 Sure. I, I, I think, to be fair, I've never s- I've never seen it as cringe, purely because I think that for me, and, and something I share in the book, there's always two sales to happen. The second sale is selling ourself to other people.

Ali Abdaal 13:33 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 13:33 So whether that is getting investment for your business, selling an idea to your colleagues, or selling yourself and your business. The first sale, which few of us actually focus on, is selling ourself to ourself.

Ali Abdaal 13:45 Oh.

Simon Alexander Ong 13:45 And until we can-

Ali Abdaal 13:46 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 13:47 ... sell ourself to ourself, of course things are gonna feel cringe.

Ali Abdaal 13:50 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 13:50 But if actually you're coming from a place of authenticity and you believe that you have that value to off- you have that value to offer-

Ali Abdaal 13:57 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 13:57 ... for me, it doesn't come across as cringe.

Ali Abdaal 13:59 Damn.

Simon Alexander Ong 14:00 And so when I started to speak that, it came from a place of belief. Uh, you know, I was inspired actually to talk about trailers in such a way-

Ali Abdaal 14:08 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 14:09 ... from, from someone I saw in America on the speaking circuit, and when he was asked, "What do you do?" The way he responded came across so natural, but it was him. No one else could say it in the way he did it, and I think that's where authenticity comes from. He said, "I have been saving the world from boredom since before you were born." Now I'm interested. Tell me more.

Ali Abdaal 14:31 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 14:32 In fact, all he was was a public speaker, but the way he presented it got me interested.

Ali Abdaal 14:37 Yeah. Nice. It's like a title and a thumbnail on a YouTube video almost-

Simon Alexander Ong 14:42 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 14:43 ... where you kinda have to package it in a way that makes people want to click and want to find out more.

Simon Alexander Ong 14:48 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 14:49 And some people might be like, "Oh, it's a bit clickbait," but actually you wanna toe the line between... Y- you want it to be sufficiently intriguing so as to warrant someone's attention.

Simon Alexander Ong 14:57 Definitely.

Ali Abdaal 14:58 Because if you just describe what the thing is about, like, n- no one's gonna care.

Simon Alexander Ong 15:02 And we have to, we have to embrace that fact. You know, I read in, uh, in, in The Guardian a few years ago that the average attention span for a human was eight seconds.

Ali Abdaal 15:11 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 15:12 What they did is they got people in the room, they gave them tasks, and they would throw distractions their way to see how long it would take before they would stop doing the task and focus on the distraction.

Ali Abdaal 15:22 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 15:22 And they found that average to be eight seconds. What was more interesting was the fact that the average attention span for a goldfish was nine seconds.

Ali Abdaal 15:31 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 15:32 So that tells us two things. On the one hand is if our attention span is that short, how do we manage our own attention and focus? Secondly, how do we get the attention from other people, whether that is customers, audiences that we're looking to-

Ali Abdaal 15:47 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 15:47 ... speak to? And that's where some of these things come in handy.

Ali Abdaal 15:51 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 15:51 The psychology of an audience, how do we engage with people so they want to listen, so they want to ask questions, they want to be curious?

Ali Abdaal 15:58 Okay. So we'll... I'm, I'm sure we'll definitely come around to the how do we manage our own attention.

Simon Alexander Ong 16:01 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 16:01 But let's go back to this I'm... We're, we're... You and I are at this convention-

Simon Alexander Ong 16:04 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 16:04 ... and I ask you, "Simon, what do you do?"

Simon Alexander Ong 16:06 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 16:07 Uh, what, what's your trailer to that?

Simon Alexander Ong 16:09 Sure. So one of the versions I might say is, "Everything I do is to awaken people's imagination of what is truly possible so they can live a better story." Now, once we've gone past the introductions-

Ali Abdaal 16:20 Then I'd be like, "Oh, okay."

Simon Alexander Ong 16:21 [laughs] Tell me more.

Ali Abdaal 16:23 What does, what does that mean? Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 16:24 And so what I do is I continue telling stories.

Ali Abdaal 16:27 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 16:27 Because what I've understood is that we're humans, which means we make purchasing decisions not based on facts or figures-

Ali Abdaal 16:35 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 16:35 ... but based on emotion.

Ali Abdaal 16:36 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 16:37 And so most of us, when they then say, "Tell me more. How do you do what you do?" We jump straight into logistics.

Ali Abdaal 16:43 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 16:43 We go, "Well, we would meet twice a month. We would look at this. We would meet here. We can do it virtual." People don't care about that. Yes, at the end, that's important, but at this early stage, I jump into more stories. So they might say, "How do you do what you do, Simon? Tell me more." I would say something like, "Well, let me tell you about one of my clients, Emma, who came to me about six months ago. Now, when she first approached me, this is where she was at that moment of her life. Now, just yesterday she got an email from the United Nations inviting her to speak at a conference in Madrid, something she could never imagine that she could achieve in her lifetime." So what's going through their mind now is, "Wow. Simon, can you do to me what you did to Emma?" So what they're doing is they're putting themselves into that story, understanding that the role of a coach is as a guide, is to unlock their own hero potential, and they see that in the stories that we share.

Ali Abdaal 17:42 Okay. So at this point, I'm thinking... I'm, I'm putting myself in the shoes of Emma, and I'm thinking, "Huh, I'm... I feel like I don't really know what to do." I'm like, "Well, yeah, I'd, I'd love to get invited by the United Nations," or whatever that might look like.

Simon Alexander Ong 17:55 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 17:56 And then I'd probably ask, "Okay, so what does that, what does that look like? How, how do you work with Emma?"

Simon Alexander Ong 18:00 Definitely. So what I then do is when I speak to the person in front of me, I try and understand what is important to them. Because again, everyone has a different version of success.

Ali Abdaal 18:10 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 18:10 So they might say, "Well, I want to do something that is more fulfilling. I want to have more freedom in my life."

Ali Abdaal 18:16 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 18:16 And then I get even more curious, because the whole point of this conversation is to unpackage what is in their mind.

Ali Abdaal 18:21 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 18:21 Think of it like If you've ever seen a, a Sherlock Holmes TV series or, or movie-

Ali Abdaal 18:26 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 18:26 ... before Sherlock Holmes dives into his mind to figure out the mystery or the answer to a crime-

Ali Abdaal 18:32 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 18:33 ... he sits the person in an armchair opposite him-

Ali Abdaal 18:35 Yep

Simon Alexander Ong 18:35 ... and he simply asks questions to unpackage what is in their mind.

Ali Abdaal 18:39 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 18:39 So my next question may be, "Well, what does freedom mean to you? What does freedom look like? What does success mean specifically?"

Ali Abdaal 18:45 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 18:45 So once I get all of this data, this is just data gathering at this point, then I can then lead them to that powerful conversation by saying, "What would be possible for you when you have that freedom, when you're able to choose how you spend your time, when you're doing something that fulfills you and brings you joy, where you can wake up every Monday morning excited about a week and not dreading it? What would be possible for you?" And then we move the conversation into the land of possibility, and that's what energizes them. And then I simply say, "Would you like to explore more of this and have a conversation about how to begin making this work?"

Ali Abdaal 19:25 Nice. This is like I f- I am, I'm f- I'm feeling myself getting, like, I, sort of having a very cynical view of it at the start, and then being like, "Oh, actually, you know, when you ask me what do I, what do I think of success, like, what does freedom mean to me?" I was like, "Actually, these are some good questions."

Simon Alexander Ong 19:40 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 19:40 I've-- Uh, and I think one of the things I find about, about coaching which is great is that a lot of the, the questions and stuff that a coach would ask are, like, a little bit weird in, like, a normal social setting.

Simon Alexander Ong 19:52 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 19:52 Like, you wouldn't just over dinner ask someone, "So, what's your biggest challenge right now?"

Simon Alexander Ong 19:55 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 19:55 Or s- or something like that. And yet I know people who do that, and I've-

Simon Alexander Ong 19:58 Mm

Ali Abdaal 19:58 ... started doing that with people now, and it's just kind of interesting 'cause it gets straight to, like, an interesting conversation beyond-

Simon Alexander Ong 20:04 It's, it's-

Ali Abdaal 20:04 ... talking about the weather

Simon Alexander Ong 20:04 ... so powerful because I think that-

Ali Abdaal 20:06 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 20:06 ... i- i- if we go back decades before coaching was the industry it is today, this is what friends did.

Ali Abdaal 20:13 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 20:14 You know, when you met up and you didn't have all of these distractions of today, screens, technology, work and so on. When you met up and had a coffee with a friend, you literally got curious about people. Uh, you know, I did the exact same thing with a friend recently, and she l- she loved the conversation. Uh, we only met at a networking event a couple of months ago, and we met for coffee and she told me she was in the process of writing a book. And so I got curious. I said, "How long have you been writing the book for?" And she said, "It's been about five or six years, and I'm just starting to get through the process now." And my natural next question was, "What has stopped you?"

Ali Abdaal 20:52 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 20:52 And now we were kind of entering a coaching conversation here, but it was very natural.

Ali Abdaal 20:56 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 20:57 It wasn't weird questions coming up.

Ali Abdaal 20:58 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 20:58 It was just coming from a place of curiosity. And by the end of that conversation she said, "Wow. You know, I'm very inspired now, and I can't wait to show you the progress I will be making in the next couple of months." And so she knew the answers. It was just about discovering the courage to take action. And sometimes this is what coaching can do. It can give people that space to reflect-

Ali Abdaal 21:22 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 21:22 ... to connect the dots, which we all have. You know, we're all collecting dots all the time through conversation, through watching YouTube videos, listening to podcasts, learning from other people.

Ali Abdaal 21:33 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 21:35 However, we don't give ourself the space to connect those dots, and that's what's most important. There's no point collecting dots if you don't have the space to connect them.

Ali Abdaal 21:45 If you don't have the sp- uh, so okay, so in my, in my example of, you know, we've met at this, this convention. I, you know, I'm working full-time as a doctor, Simon, 60-hour weeks. Like, like, what do you mean have to have the space? I don't, I don't have any, any, any space in my life.

Simon Alexander Ong 21:57 Well, that would be the first place we would begin then is to get some space back.

Ali Abdaal 22:02 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 22:03 Because if you have zero space, how can you focus on what matters most?

Ali Abdaal 22:07 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 22:07 Whatever we work on, whatever you want to do in life-

Ali Abdaal 22:10 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 22:10 ... you simply don't have the time to do that. And so you've got to understand that you have to make some sacrifices for what you want.

Ali Abdaal 22:18 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 22:18 Otherwise, the very thing that you want becomes what you sacrifice. And so to remind people to reflect on that vision they have for their life, y- you know, we can be energized in the moment. I call this feeling positive or positively charged. But there's no point being positively charged if there's no magnetic charge of a vision that is compelling and exciting.

Ali Abdaal 22:38 Nice.

Simon Alexander Ong 22:39 Once you've got a vision that is compelling and exciting, you've got a magnetic charge in place. That's what pulls us forward.

Ali Abdaal 22:45 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 22:45 Many of us simply don't know what it is we do want.

Ali Abdaal 22:48 Yeah. So this is a thing that I've been, I have

Ali Abdaal 22:52 been coming up against when, when making certain YouTube vid- videos about this-

Simon Alexander Ong 22:55 Mm

Ali Abdaal 22:55 ... where a lot of the comments are like, "Okay, you're saying like you could make money from your passion." Well, I don't know what my passion is.

Simon Alexander Ong 23:00 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 23:00 I, I, like, I don't, I don't actually know what I want. Like, how would someone listening to this or watching this start to approach that question of how, how do I figure out what I actually want?

Simon Alexander Ong 23:09 Sure, and it's a very, it's a very important question because a lot of people I speak with say to me, "Simon, I'm not taking action or executing because I don't know what my purpose is. And so how do I know I'm taking action on the right things that will lead me to where I want to be?" My response to that is none of us wake up one morning and know exactly what we want to do for the rest of our lives. It would be great if that happens, but it's only in the Hollywood film.

Ali Abdaal 23:36 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 23:37 In reality what happens is that we get given clues, we get given insights, we get given experiences that nudge us towards where it is that we were meant to be. Now, the best place to begin is instead of asking yourself, "What is my passion and what is my purpose?" Is to simply ask yourself, "What am I most curious about right now?"

Ali Abdaal 23:59 Ooh.

Simon Alexander Ong 23:59 Right now, what am I most curious about? Now, here's why-

Ali Abdaal 24:03 Okay

Simon Alexander Ong 24:03 ... it's a powerful question, because asking yourself what my purpose and passion is puts you in the future. But let's be honest, none of us can predict the future. None of us know if the future we want is actually going to manifest. I mean, how many people had the COVID pandemic in their business plans? No one. So bringing it back to the present and asking a softer question, "What am I most curious about now?" grounds you in the present and allows you to focus on following those- ... those truths, those wisdoms that we have inside of us.

Ali Abdaal 24:35 What do you mean by curious?

Simon Alexander Ong 24:36 So I'll give an example.

Ali Abdaal 24:37 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 24:39 My journey into coaching-

Ali Abdaal 24:40 Mm

Simon Alexander Ong 24:40 ... wasn't because I woke up one morning and said, "You know, I wanna coach and speak for the rest of my life."

Ali Abdaal 24:44 [laughs] Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 24:45 [laughs] I, I was in the financial industry.

Ali Abdaal 24:47 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 24:48 I was disillusioned, I was feeling unfulfilled.

Ali Abdaal 24:51 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 24:51 And so my curiosity at the time was what would life be like if I worked for myself and I didn't work for other people?

Ali Abdaal 24:59 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 24:59 Now, that curiosity led me to read business books, uh, to watch shows about entrepreneurship. That led me into my first business venture, which didn't succeed, but again, I would never have started it without that curiosity. That led me to get involved in some community projects, uh, to be exposed to different people and different environments-

Ali Abdaal 25:20 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 25:20 ... which led me to my second business, which didn't work out. But then that second business led me to people that guided me to this coaching event that happened one weekend. That weekend became the beginning of my journey, but it was curiosity that created those stepping stones. Now, here's why it's important. Whenever we begin a new path, we don't get given the entire map up front. That map opens up as we take steps forwards, and the more steps that we take, the more of the map that is opened up to us. It's like putting together a jigsaw puzzle.

Ali Abdaal 25:56 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 25:57 You know, you can't see it straight away, but the more pieces you put together, the quicker that picture begins to form, and that's what we've got to trust. Trust in the process, take one step forward each day, and imagine a year from now where you could be, 365 steps forward.

Ali Abdaal 26:14 So w- you mentioned that there's this sort of magnetic field of, of vision. So then by vision, do you just mean what, what is the next step? Or like how, how far out are we planning here?

Simon Alexander Ong 26:26 Sure. So there's an element of having a balance here. You, you have to have a vision to give you context for today. Otherwise, you can take any action because you don't know where it's gonna lead or where you want to be.

Ali Abdaal 26:37 Okay. Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 26:38 So the vision is something that is compelling enough for you to want to take some action.

Ali Abdaal 26:43 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 26:43 Now, when we look at the action piece, it's not about taking big steps, it's then about taking small steps.

Ali Abdaal 26:50 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 26:50 So thinking big and starting small, that's the balance that we have to get.

Ali Abdaal 26:53 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 26:54 Now, the thinking big piece is what activates our, our emotions. You know, when we think about something that we want to achieve in our lifetime, that is what creates that emotional pull. When we look at the present, it's what is the one small step that is in my control that I can take today? That's it. Just focus on today. One small step that will contribute to that vision starting to take shape. And then tomorrow ask yourself the same question. What is one small step that I can take today that will move me forward? So that's the balance we have to have, is do we have to have clarity of a vision that is magnetic in nature, but also to just take small steps forward, not to be overwhelmed with how many steps there is to go-

Ali Abdaal 27:33 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 27:33 ... but just on the present moment.

Ali Abdaal 27:37 All right, we're just gonna take a quick break from this episode to introduce our sponsor, which is very excitingly Huel. Now, Huel is great because I've been a customer of Huel for the last six years, and also we've got an interview with Julian Hearn, who is the founder of Huel, on this podcast. So you can check that out. It'll be on the YouTube channel and on the Spotify page, and that was a fantastic masterclass in entrepreneurship. But anyway, we're talking about Huel because Huel is a fantastically complete meal. So if you're like me and you have a fairly busy life and you don't necessarily make the time to shop and cook and prep and wash up like a healthy meal at home, which is obviously ideal, then the nice thing about Huel is that it's a great alternative to an unhealthy cereal or an unhealthy takeaway meal, for example. I particularly like the Huel Black Edition because this is high protein and lower carb. So for 400 calories, you get 40 grams of protein. And so this is absolutely fantastic for workout days where I'm trying to get my 160, 180 grams of protein in. And it's also great because the high protein helps me stay full for a lot longer. I take my two scoops of the Black Edition powder. I like the Banana Edition and the Salted Caramel Edition. I'll mix it up in my NutriBullet blender thing with water and maybe a little bit of milk sometimes, and then I'll just sip on that while I'm working at my desk, and that will get me the appropriate level of protein that I need. It'll get me a decent chunk of carbohydrates and fibers and fat, and also 26 different vitamins and minerals, which are generally very good for the body. It's also very reasonably priced. Like, if you work it out, it comes out to £1.68 per meal-ish, which is about 400 calories, and that's way cheaper than an alternative would be if you were ordering takeout, for example. So if that sounds up your street and you would like a nutritionally complete and affordable and healthy option for some of your meals, then head over to huel.com/deepdive. And if you use that URL, huel.com/deepdive, they will send you a free T-shirt and also a free shaker bottle thing with your first order. I still use my T-shirt. It's great. It's nice and elasticy. It fits reasonably well. It makes me look kinda hench. So you can check that out, huel.com/deepdive. So thank you so much, Huel, for sponsoring this episode. This episode is very kindly brought to you by Trading 212. Now, people ask me all the time for advice about investing, 'cause I've made a bunch of videos about it on the YouTube channel, and my advice for most people is generally invest in broad stock market index funds, which is exactly what you can do completely for free with Trading 212. It's a great app that lets you trade stocks and funds and ETFs and foreign exchange if you really want to. And one of the great things about the app is that if you're new to the world of investing, you can actually invest with fake money. You don't have to put real money in. They've got a practice mode where you invest fake money, and then it actually tracks what the market is doing in real time. So you can see, had I invested £100 into this thing, what would my return have been X weeks or X months further down the line? Once you've got some comfort with that, then it's super easy to deposit money into your Trading 212 account. You can use Apple Pay like I do initially, or you can use a direct bank transfer. And then once the money's in your Trading 212 account, then you can invest it in basically whatever you want. The other really cool feature about Trading 212 is their Pies feature. So what you can do is you can follow people who've created investing pies. For example, someone might have a pie where, I don't know, 30% of it's Apple and 20% is Tesla and 10% is the S&P 500. And you can follow people on the app and see what pies they've created, and you can see the performance of those pies, and then you can just copy and paste a particular pie into your own account. And so that means, like, let's say you've got £100 to invest and you've put 50 of it into the S&P 500, but you wanna be a little bit more experimental with the other £50. You could invest it into a pie where someone else who's generally a pro or someone in their bedroom who just loves the markets has already done all the homework for you. The app also lets you auto invest, which is a great thing, 'cause then you can automatically invest a percentage of your paycheck into the thing every month. And so if you haven't yet started with investing and you wanna give it a go, then you can download the app on the App Store. And if you use the coupon code ALI, A-L-I, at the checkout, that will give you a totally free share worth up to £100. It's available on iPhone and Android, and you can check it out by typing in Trading 212 into your respective app store. So thank you so much, Trading 212, for sponsoring this episode. Okay, so this seems a bit- ... somewhat, somewhat contradictory, and it's, it's probably just, like, my, my misunderstanding of it. So, so you're saying that you can't just wake up and figure out your passion and purpose-

Simon Alexander Ong 31:14 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 31:14 But you should still have a vision.

Simon Alexander Ong 31:16 Definitely, because-

Ali Abdaal 31:16 So what, what's the difference between sort of purpose and vision, I guess?

Simon Alexander Ong 31:19 Sure. So with the vision is when you start to be curious about what it is that interests you-

Ali Abdaal 31:26 Okay

Simon Alexander Ong 31:26 ... that starts to feed into a vision. Now, the point of having a vision is not that you're gonna have 100% clarity yet.

Ali Abdaal 31:32 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 31:32 But you have to have some idea. So you might begin with your vision simply being freedom. That's it, one word. My vision is to have freedom.

Ali Abdaal 31:40 Okay. So let's say-

Simon Alexander Ong 31:41 Now-

Ali Abdaal 31:41 ... I'm, I'm working full-time as a doctor, 60-hour weeks, and my vision is like, "Oh, I'd-- You know what? I'd love to live a life where h- you know, even if I was just working three days a week, I'd, I'd have so much time I'd be able to do the things I want to do."

Simon Alexander Ong 31:50 Exactly.

Ali Abdaal 31:51 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 31:51 So it starts off with just that.

Ali Abdaal 31:53 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 31:53 Now you take some small steps forward. It could be simple as starting to read different material.

Ali Abdaal 31:58 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 31:59 It could be going to different events. Now what happens is that as you begin exposing yourself to new environments that energize you-

Ali Abdaal 32:07 Mm

Simon Alexander Ong 32:07 ... that vision starts to expand. Now you begin getting more specific. Freedom by doing what? Freedom is a lifestyle where I can do X. Now you start to fill in more of that puzzle.

Ali Abdaal 32:20 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 32:20 And as you take more steps forward, of course-

Ali Abdaal 32:21 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 32:21 ... you start to fill in more of the vision.

Ali Abdaal 32:23 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 32:23 So the vision has to begin with something, and it can be even one word. We've used freedom here, but whatever word means something to you about what you want to work towards. As you take small steps forward, that's where you get more clarity. That vision starts to expand. You start to get more clear on what is in that vision for you.

Ali Abdaal 32:44 Okay. So

Ali Abdaal 32:49 I wonder if we can almost just, like, role-play this with my, with my doctor scenario. So we're having our powerful conversation. You've asked me what I'm curious about, and I'm thinking, "You know what? Honestly, I, I feel like I'm so burnt out from this job. I feel like I, I used to be curious about things. I was super interested in, like, learning, learning to play the guitar and getting better at music theory, and I love the idea of, um, maybe starting a podcast one day where I-

Simon Alexander Ong 33:13 Mm

Ali Abdaal 33:13 ... I, I interview people, 'cause I've been listening to the Tim Ferriss Show a bit, and I think-

Simon Alexander Ong 33:16 Sure

Ali Abdaal 33:16 ... it's kind of cool, and I listen to it on my commute, but I just like-- I feel like I don't really have the time to, to do any of it." So I guess that's what I'm curious about-

Simon Alexander Ong 33:24 Mm

Ali Abdaal 33:24 ... sort of a little bit of music, a little bit of, like, the podcast stuff.

Simon Alexander Ong 33:26 Sure.

Ali Abdaal 33:26 But I feel like I just don't really have the space in my life to.

Simon Alexander Ong 33:28 Well, my first question to you would be: What is important about starting a podcast?

Ali Abdaal 33:35 Hmm. What is important about starting a podcast? I guess for me, I like the idea of learning from interesting people. Um, I feel like the reason I went, went into medicine partly was this idea of lifelong learning.

Simon Alexander Ong 33:49 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 33:49 But now that I'm in it, like, you know, especially at the junior level that I'm at, a lot of it is, like, following guidelines, and it's-

Simon Alexander Ong 33:54 Mm

Ali Abdaal 33:54 ... it's, it's honestly not that intellectually stimulating. I know that eventually when I specialize and-

Simon Alexander Ong 34:00 Mm

Ali Abdaal 34:00 ... stuff, it, it will be, but, like, at least right now I feel like I'm an admin monkey doing ad-admin work.

Simon Alexander Ong 34:04 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 34:05 And I feel like I'm not really learning anything beyond-

Simon Alexander Ong 34:07 Mm

Ali Abdaal 34:08 ... beyond the first few weeks. So I just... I, I think that's a really cool way, and when you have a podcast, like, I know that lets you just meet people, 'cause then you can say, "Do you want to be on my podcast?" Rather than-

Simon Alexander Ong 34:17 Mm

Ali Abdaal 34:17 ... uh, just, "Do you want to have a chat?"

Simon Alexander Ong 34:19 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 34:19 And so that's why I, I've kind of had vaguely had this idea in the back of my mind-

Simon Alexander Ong 34:22 Sure

Ali Abdaal 34:22 ... but I'm, I'm, I'm not really sure if it'll go anywhere.

Simon Alexander Ong 34:24 Mm. And what would life be like if you could focus and prioritize lifelong learning?

Ali Abdaal 34:34 If I could focus and prioritize lifelong learning? I feel like life would be a lot better. I feel like if I, again, if I had the, if I had the time-

Simon Alexander Ong 34:41 Mm

Ali Abdaal 34:41 ... for it in my, in, in my life, I, I, I feel like every week, every month I'd be... You know, because I, I, I like to, I like to read a bit when I, when I have the time, and there's always new things that I wanna, wanna learn more about.

Simon Alexander Ong 34:53 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 34:53 And that gives me a lot of fulfillment.

Simon Alexander Ong 34:56 How important is it for you to start making steps towards making that a reality, on a scale of one to 10?

Ali Abdaal 35:02 Ooh. That's a good question. Um, honestly, right now it's probably, like, a two, because I just c- I can't see any way. Like, I know that for the next two years I've got to grind out this foundation training, and maybe at that point then I'll have time in my life to, if I take a break. But then I know if I take a break, then I'm, I'm not gonna have a salary coming in, and so I, I keep on coming up against that barrier of I, I know I'm in this career path. I know I need the money to pay rent. But, like, I just don't feel like... I feel like once I have the time, then of course I can do all the lifelong learning.

Simon Alexander Ong 35:34 Hmm. How long have you been saying that to yourself, "When I have the time"?

Ali Abdaal 35:40 Honestly, since-- for the last, like, eight years. Ever since I got into med school, I was like, "W- w- when I get out, then I'll have time to do this," and now that I'm working, I think, "Ugh, when I, when I take my break, then I'll have time to do this." So I've been, I've been telling myself that for, for, like, eight years at this point.

Simon Alexander Ong 35:57 Eight years. I'm, I'm curious. If you were to have taken some small steps eight years ago, where do you think you could be now?

Ali Abdaal 36:03 Oh. Yeah. [laughs] You got me. Um, pro- probably living a life that I'm, I feel more enthused by, I guess. Um, although even then it's, it's, it's, it's hard to say, because, like, this, this career path that I'm in feels like it's... You know, I'm, I'm on this, I'm on this conveyor belt and I have to... I, but I guess, I guess that's what I've been telling myself, that I have to keep on taking that next step within medicine itself-

Simon Alexander Ong 36:32 Mm

Ali Abdaal 36:33 ... which feels like it doesn't really leave enough time for, for the things that I wanna do.

Simon Alexander Ong 36:36 I'm curious. You said you've been telling yourself. Is that really you telling yourself?

Ali Abdaal 36:45 Hmm. Is it really me telling myself? I, I think it's-

Simon Alexander Ong 36:52 Or is that someone else telling you that inside?

Ali Abdaal 36:56 Inside?

Simon Alexander Ong 36:57 As in is it because that's been imprinted into you by an outside influence? Is that really what it is-

Ali Abdaal 37:05 Probably

Simon Alexander Ong 37:05 ... you want to do?

Ali Abdaal 37:06 Ooh, yeah. Like, yeah, that's a good point. I think, like, ever since I even entertained the thought of going to medical school, everyone around me has been telling me how difficult it's gonna be and how tough it is.

Simon Alexander Ong 37:14 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 37:14 And, you know, obviously during school I had to grind super hard to get all these, like, grades and stuff.

Simon Alexander Ong 37:20 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 37:20 And when I was at university and medical school, suddenly from day one it was like, "Okay, well, you've got to continue grinding," 'cause it's-

Simon Alexander Ong 37:25 Mm

Ali Abdaal 37:25 ... specialty applications and foundation applications, and it's like at every stage I've been so focused on how do I tick that next box that to me it's always felt like, "Oh, of course I don't have time in my life. I'm a medical student now. I f- I, I have to be grinding all the time to, to pass my exams-

Simon Alexander Ong 37:41 Mm

Ali Abdaal 37:41 ... and, and stuff."

Simon Alexander Ong 37:43 Here's a thought for you, and I think it's something you know deep down. It's not a question of time. It's a question of whether it is important to you. You and I know that if something is really important to you, you will make time for it. If I was to recommend you a Netflix show that everyone is watching at the moment, that is getting all the attention in the press, I have no doubt you will find time to watch it. So-

Ali Abdaal 38:08 Yep

Simon Alexander Ong 38:09 ... I feel deep down you know yourself it's not question of time, it's a question of importance. How important is it for you to do something that is more fulfilling, to live life for you and not for others?

Ali Abdaal 38:24 Damn, never thought of that. Um, now that you mention it, it's, yeah, it's pretty important. It's pretty, it's pretty important. I would, I would love that for, for that to be my life.

Simon Alexander Ong 38:34 So my challenge to you, and I don't know where this is gonna go after this, but let's say we were to touch base in a week from now.

Ali Abdaal 38:42 Yep.

Simon Alexander Ong 38:42 What would be one thing that you would commit to doing between now and next week, however small, to start making what you've shared with me a reality?

Ali Abdaal 38:57 Hmm. Okay. I guess I could-- Like, for example, I like this idea of starting a podcast.

Simon Alexander Ong 39:07 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 39:07 I think it would be, it would be cool. So I guess I could watch a YouTube video about how to start a podcast-

Simon Alexander Ong 39:12 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 39:12 ... and, um, start making a plan of what that could look like.

Simon Alexander Ong 39:19 Mm-hmm. I'm noticing the word "could" a lot. I'm gonna rephrase the question again. What will you do between now and next week?

Ali Abdaal 39:29 I will watch a YouTube video-

Simon Alexander Ong 39:31 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 39:31 ... about how to start a podcast, and I will make a plan for what my podcast is gonna look like.

Simon Alexander Ong 39:36 Great. Let's get specific. Get your calendar out. When exactly will you be blocking out time to watch that YouTube video?

Ali Abdaal 39:43 Okay, so I've got a shift tomorrow and the day after, but... Oh, I've, I've only got a half day, you know, on Sunday, so Sunday, finish work at 1:00 PM, get home by 2:00, and fit in lunch 2:00 to 3:00. Okay, 3:00 to 4:00 PM I will make time to watch that, that YouTube video.

Simon Alexander Ong 39:58 Fantastic. And then the second part to what you shared, when will you make plans to move forward? So you said watch the YouTube video and then make some plans to make that a reality. When would be a good time to make some plans for you?

Ali Abdaal 40:10 Good question. Um, so I'm actually free that rest of the afternoon, so 3:00 till 4:00 PM I'll watch that YouTube video and find a bunch of videos to figure out what the next steps are, and then 4:00 to 5:00 PM I'll commit to b- making, to making a plan of what my podcast is gonna look like.

Simon Alexander Ong 40:25 Amazing. You know what? I can't wait to speak to you again next week and hear how you've got on with watching those YouTube videos and to see what you've put together in that plan.

Ali Abdaal 40:36 Nice.

Simon Alexander Ong 40:36 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 40:37 That's so good. How, how, how, how did you learn how to do that? I would, I would love to be able to do that.

Simon Alexander Ong 40:42 Hmm. The, the thing is, if you l-

Ali Abdaal 40:44 What's the, what's the secret? [laughs]

Simon Alexander Ong 40:45 If you noticed, a lot of coaches when they first start-

Ali Abdaal 40:47 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 40:48 ... is we're seeking bank of questions. What are the questions I should ask? Which is the right question to ask in the right moment? The truth is, the best question comes in the moment. The best question can only present itself when we listen to what the other person is saying. Because once we begin stepping into that person's world, so what I was doing, if you were noticing-

Ali Abdaal 41:08 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 41:08 ... I was data gathering.

Ali Abdaal 41:10 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 41:10 And as I was data gathering, it allowed me to step into your world a bit more, to see the world that you were living in, and so it helped me to understand where to push, where to challenge, but also where to question, and that can only be built through practice. As with any skill, to master something, we've got to practice it.

Ali Abdaal 41:29 Nice. [laughs]

Simon Alexander Ong 41:30 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 41:30 Okay. So coming back to your, um... So you, you're working in finance and you were kind of helping people get into jobs in the city.

Simon Alexander Ong 41:37 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 41:38 That's fa- fairly analogous to what I was doing, um, in medicine, helping people get into med school, and that was for me how I realized, oh, I actually really enjoy teaching.

Simon Alexander Ong 41:44 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 41:45 Teaching is kind of fun. It's, it's this cool thing to do. Um, and so you said that you did this two-day coaching, coaching thing.

Simon Alexander Ong 41:52 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 41:52 Like, what, what was that like?

Simon Alexander Ong 41:54 Sure. So it was run by a company called The Coaching Academy.

Ali Abdaal 41:57 Oh.

Simon Alexander Ong 41:57 I went in there, just like yourself, Ali, I was a bit skeptical. I went in there thinking, "What am I gonna really learn in two days?" The saving grace was the fact that it was free, and the only thing that it would cost me was my time. By the end of that weekend, I remember coming home to, to my wife, and I said to her, "I want to sign up to this course. It's so exciting, and I can't wait to learn more about how to apply these coaching skills into the lives of other people." And two years later, I finished. So I was balancing this alongside a 9:00 to 5:00. I finished with, with two qualifications, and then I started to apply that in the conversations that I had with people, and before long, I started to build my coaching practice. And then from there, things started to happen organically. I went from that into speaking, being invited onto Sky News and the BBC to talk about my work, and then more recently signing a book deal with Penguin to write not only about my journey, but what I've learned through the work that I've done with clients and also speaking to audiences from corporate to the public.

Ali Abdaal 42:58 Nice.

Ali Abdaal 43:00 One criticism some people have of the coaching industry is that it's unregulated and anyone can just call themselves a coach.

Simon Alexander Ong 43:08 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 43:08 And you see these 18-year-old influencers who suddenly become life coaches. Like, what's, what's going on in that side of the industry? And I, yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 43:14 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 43:14 I guess you're sort of in it, so you-

Simon Alexander Ong 43:16 Sure

Ali Abdaal 43:16 ... compared to that, yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 43:18 I think this is why it goes back to getting an experience with a coach first before you agree to do anything. Because as you said, it's one of those industries where anybody can be a coach. I mean, you can set up your social media account in a couple of hours, you can call yourself a coach, and you can start marketing what you do. But for me, when I'm looking for a coach or mentor, I want to see somebody's track record. I also want to have an experience with someone so I know what they're capable of. A lot of people can read books and think they're a great coach straight away without any practice or experience.

Ali Abdaal 43:52 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 43:52 It's not just in the coaching world, it's in a lot of different businesses. Uh, we can start something and people c- find it very difficult to know the difference because we have an abundant of services in, in, in, in the, the world that we're in at the moment. And so for me, it's important to be careful about who you trust in the online world. But also what we want to do is to look at how they're focusing on themselves as well. Because as a coach, we can only lead and take people as far as we have gone ourselves, and if we're not improving, if we're not putting ourselves out there, if we don't even have a coach or mentor ourself, how can we help those that we want to help?

Ali Abdaal 44:33 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 44:34 And so again, research is, is such a critical component of this. But it's a valid question, Ali, because I often get asked how important qualifications are as part of becoming a coach, because in a world in which, as you said, anybody can become a coach, how important of a role do qualifications play? I got my qualifications after studying for a couple of years, but it's a tricky one, and how I tend to respond to this is that what is more important is the results that somebody has got. Because you might have somebody who has all the qualifications under the sun, they're great at what they do, but they don't have the experience. They haven't built a successful business. Or you can have somebody with little to no qualifications, yet they have incredible results and work with some inspiring clients and have been featured in multiple media outlets. I mean, who are you gonna be more inclined to work with? More likely the latter. And, and so it's important to focus on the results that you can get, and over time, that speaks for itself.

Ali Abdaal 45:37 Mm. Okay. So would love to talk more about the book in a sec, but I guess one kind of final strand I wanted to go down was, um, let's say someone's listening to this and thinking, "Oh, quite fancy myself becoming a coach." Um, and maybe they're, I don't know, working a normal job or they're a student or something. Um, actually, yeah, let's say they're working a normal job and they don't particularly enjoy the job and they're like, "You know, this coaching thing, thing seems pretty good."

Simon Alexander Ong 46:02 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 46:03 But realistically, they're looking at it as like a, "Oh, you're saying I can make money by just asking people questions? I mean, that sounds-

Simon Alexander Ong 46:09 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 46:09 ... that sounds fun." Um,

Ali Abdaal 46:11 let's say I'm in that position where-

Simon Alexander Ong 46:12 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 46:12 ... I've got my day job and I like the idea of being a coach on the side to make a bit of money and potentially quit my job one day.

Simon Alexander Ong 46:18 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 46:19 What would be the next action steps, and would you recommend this as a path to go down?

Simon Alexander Ong 46:24 Well, with regards to the question, would I recommend it as a path to go down, for me, the first place is to really understand why is coaching important to them, because I don't want them to be doing it just because they saw someone make a lot of money from it or they saw it as a glamorous, uh, path.

Ali Abdaal 46:41 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 46:41 Because as glamorous as some paths can be-

Ali Abdaal 46:44 Mm

Simon Alexander Ong 46:44 ... there is always the challenges, the setbacks, and the failures that you are going to experience.

Ali Abdaal 46:49 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 46:50 And so if you're not really focused on wanting to make something out of that path, you're not gonna survive the setbacks and the challenges you, you, you will naturally face on the journey. And so for me, the first place is to understand how important is it for you to become a coach. What is this purpose in embarking on this journey? Now, if money comes into it-

Ali Abdaal 47:10 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 47:10 ... I would then throw the question back to them and say, "Let's say you've made all the money you've ever wanted. So let's say money's not an issue now. What would you do with that money?" Because it's to help them understand that money is not an end goal-

Ali Abdaal 47:22 Mm

Simon Alexander Ong 47:22 ... it's a means goal. It's, it's fuel. It's like filling up your car. Y- you know, money's like the petrol you put into a car. You've got to know where you're driving your car to in order to know how much petrol to put into it. Now, in order to know how much money you wanna have, then you've got to understand what are you gonna use that money for? Otherwise, you fall into the trap of lottery winners who, when they win the jackpot, they end up becoming bankrupt or in a worse position than they were before they won the jackpot because they simply didn't have a purpose for the money.

Ali Abdaal 47:48 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 47:48 And if you don't have a purpose for money, what happens is you end up just spending it.

Ali Abdaal 47:53 Okay. So in my, in my case, let's say I-- this doctor example, I've listened to this podcast, I'm thinking-

Simon Alexander Ong 47:58 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 47:59 ... "Oh, yes, I wanna, I wanna be a coach." And I'm thinking, I do like teaching. You know, I taught people-

Simon Alexander Ong 48:03 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 48:04 ... I taught students in medical school, and that was quite fun, and part of being a doctor is about being a teacher, you know, classic interview answer. Um, and so I like the idea of teaching, and I like the idea of being able to help people through asking them questions.

Simon Alexander Ong 48:15 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 48:15 And I thought the questions you asked me to g- get me started on my podcast were particularly like-

Simon Alexander Ong 48:19 Mm

Ali Abdaal 48:19 ... "Oh, that, that was nice."

Simon Alexander Ong 48:20 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 48:20 That's... I, I feel like I, I made progress there. But realistically, I'm also thinking, "Hmm, my salary's about 33K right now, working 60 hours a week. Could I make an extra 1 or 2,000 pounds a month?"

Simon Alexander Ong 48:30 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 48:30 "Because if I do that, I can potentially save up for a deposit on a house, and then-

Simon Alexander Ong 48:33 Mm

Ali Abdaal 48:33 ... I'll just feel less of a money insecurity." So I'd be combining this vague interest that I have in like, "Oh, you know, I think, I think I'm, I enjoy teaching. I wanna make money."

Simon Alexander Ong 48:42 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 48:42 I've thought this coach stuff sounds pretty interesting, and in my mind, I'm also thinking realistically that, "Are you saying that I just need a few clients who'll pay me some money?" I mean, like starting a podcast feels really hard. Like, uh, you know, there's no way it's gonna get big.

Simon Alexander Ong 48:55 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 48:55 Like, you know, it's like trying to be a musician or something. It's basically never gonna work. But could I pos- possibly make 1 or 2,000 pounds a month-

Simon Alexander Ong 49:01 Mm

Ali Abdaal 49:01 ... by being a coach? So the, those would be the motivations-

Simon Alexander Ong 49:03 Sure

Ali Abdaal 49:03 ... floating around in my mind.

Simon Alexander Ong 49:04 For me, the first two areas that I would explore in my questions would be one, space, and second, focus.

Ali Abdaal 49:10 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 49:10 So what I mean by space is, well, let's look at your week.

Ali Abdaal 49:13 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 49:13 How much space in your diary do you currently have, and how much would you need to actually give this some proper dedication?

Ali Abdaal 49:20 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 49:20 Uh, so I would look at your week and say, "Okay, what can you eliminate or what can you reduce to give yourself some more oxygen and space to explore this interest of yours?"

Ali Abdaal 49:28 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 49:29 Now, once we've got that in place, the next part is to actually get some focus.

Ali Abdaal 49:33 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 49:33 And, uh, I think it was Cal Newport that first talked about focus being today's IQ. He said that in the past we would measure people's IQ by how much they knew.

Ali Abdaal 49:43 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 49:43 Nowadays, when you and I can go into Google, we, we can ask Amazon Alexa and get an answer within seconds, it's not about how much you know now, it's about your ability to focus. And so the next question I would ask is how will you know that with the space you have over the next seven days, it will have been a productive week? And so it's beginning with the end in mind.

Ali Abdaal 50:03 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 50:03 So now what we're doing is we're bringing a bit of focus into the space that we've created. And then now once we've got this put together, we now have some path that we're working towards. Because at a high level, if we want to design our life, if we want to design something that is fulfilling, it begins with designing our days. If we can't design our days, how can we expect to design a life?

Ali Abdaal 50:25 Okay. So coming, coming back to the question of would you recommend the career path, it sounds like, yeah, if you wanna make money and you enjoy teaching and you think you'd use the money to do something good, then-

Simon Alexander Ong 50:37 Definitely

Ali Abdaal 50:37 ... it would be a reasonable-

Simon Alexander Ong 50:38 I, I'm, I'm all for that.

Ali Abdaal 50:39 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 50:39 Because as long as it's a path that is fulfilling for you, that you are interested in, that you're curious about, that plays to your strengths, why not? But also not to be attached to the outcome of it. Uh, you, you know, I went to Kyoto in Japan, and there was a beautiful English statement at one of the temples, and it read, "Be attached to no outcome and open to everything." Now, I've tried my best to embody that principle throughout my entrepreneurial journey, because I think so many of us get caught up in outcomes. So we'll try something, and if it doesn't work out, we tend to stop and give up. But if we can detach ourself from outcomes, then what it allows us to do is simply just experiment. And as the second part of the sentence says-

Ali Abdaal 51:22 Mm

Simon Alexander Ong 51:22 ... "Be open to everything." Very often we're like, "When I get this, when I get more time, when, when this happens, when I get that qualification, then I'll start. When everything is ready." But the fact is we'll never be 100% ready. And if we're always measuring our success by outcomes only, then it's not gonna be a very enjoyable journey.

Ali Abdaal 51:44 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 51:45 But actually, if we can focus on who we are becoming, how we are going through our own personal metamorphosis in the journey, that to me is the greatest reward. It's not what you get, but it's who you become in the process.

Ali Abdaal 51:57 Okay. Nice. So as I'm going through this path of learning to become a coach, 'cause maybe the destination I have in mind is, like, I'll make a extra couple grand a, a month. Um, but it sounds like you're saying I should also figure out a way to, I guess, enjoy the process and become the sort of person I wanna become through the journey-

Simon Alexander Ong 52:17 Definitely

Ali Abdaal 52:17 ... rather than being fixated on, like, I need to make two, 2K a month extra.

Simon Alexander Ong 52:20 Definitely. Because I think if you focus on enjoying the process, if you start to put healthy discipline systems in place-

Ali Abdaal 52:27 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 52:27 ... what happens is that you're setting yourself up to achieve multiple outcomes, not just one outcome. But you open yourself up to achieve outcomes that you may not even-

Ali Abdaal 52:38 Mm

Simon Alexander Ong 52:38 ... see possible right now. Uh, I, I mean, if you speak to anyone who's committed to a journey, and I use the word committed purposefully-

Ali Abdaal 52:45 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 52:45 ... anyone who's committed to a journey and played full out and has been open to everything, they've often got more than they bargained for. They may have thought at the beginning, "It'd be great if I get X." And then once they're committed to the journey, they suddenly got more than just X.

Ali Abdaal 53:02 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 53:02 And now X becomes small compared to everything else they're achieving. And so that's why it's important to actually enjoy the process, because when we do that, the rewards will eventually come.

Ali Abdaal 53:12 Mm. I love it. Yeah, like, this is something that, that I-

Simon Alexander Ong 53:15 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 53:15 ... I say a lot in our, in our YouTuber academy on, in our course, where there is one view that like, "Oh, you gotta

Ali Abdaal 53:21 grind out YouTube for the next two years-

Simon Alexander Ong 53:22 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 53:22 ... and then only then will you have success." And that is true, but, like, my model has always been that f- find a way to enjoy the journey because, like-

Simon Alexander Ong 53:30 Mm

Ali Abdaal 53:30 ... you, you're so unlikely to get a measurable, successful outcome in-

Simon Alexander Ong 53:35 Mm

Ali Abdaal 53:35 ... a small amount of time. And if you're wedded to that, then you, you know, those are the sorts of people that burn out within, like, a couple of weeks or months as they realize, "Oh, this YouTube thing is hard and it's not getting any results."

Simon Alexander Ong 53:45 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 53:45 But I think what I did well in the early days was not be attached to an outcome-

Simon Alexander Ong 53:50 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 53:50 ... just focus on the process, focus on the things that I can control, one or two videos a week-

Simon Alexander Ong 53:54 Mm

Ali Abdaal 53:54 ... and focus on making it fun for myself and have a little bit of improvement-

Simon Alexander Ong 53:57 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 53:57 ... 'cause which was inherently enjoyable and energizing. And then it almost didn't matter what the outcome was or what the-

Simon Alexander Ong 54:03 Mm

Ali Abdaal 54:03 ... numbers were because I knew-

Simon Alexander Ong 54:04 Mm

Ali Abdaal 54:04 ... that I was-- my, my life was being enriched by the journey.

Simon Alexander Ong 54:09 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 54:09 I guess. Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 54:09 I, I love that, Ali. And, and I can, I can personally resonate with that because if I look back at the progress I've made, I never planned to be a speaker, I never planned to write a book.

Ali Abdaal 54:19 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 54:19 But it just shows that you get more than you bargained for when you commit to the journey.

Ali Abdaal 54:23 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 54:23 So when I left employment, it was just simple. Build a healthy, thriving coaching practice. That, that was all I was focused on doing.

Ali Abdaal 54:31 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 54:32 But as I started to do that and I was playing with my systems, I was building a learning mindset, I was hiring mentors and coaches, before long people said, "Simon, you should speak at this event." And then, "Oh, Simon, can we interview you for this media outlet?"

Ali Abdaal 54:46 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 54:46 "Simon, have you thought about writing a book?" And so what happens is that when you show up at a certain vibrational frequency, what happens is you begin to attract things into your life that feel dreamlike sometimes. And, and that for me is why the journey is so enjoyable, why the journey has to be fun. Because what happens is that's where the magic is.

Ali Abdaal 55:07 What do you mean by show up at a certain vibrational frequency?

Simon Alexander Ong 55:11 Sure. So what I mean by that is that when you show up in the world, so whether it's in a conversation, uh, whether it's at an event, uh, whether it's how you deliver your business, when you vibrate at a certain way... Now, what I mean by this is that you show up with a certain energy.

Ali Abdaal 55:27 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 55:28 The best way to describe this is that if you were going to an event to hear someone speak or to network with people, you might say to your friends, "I really liked this person. I can't explain why, but there's something about that person I really like."

Ali Abdaal 55:41 Hmm.

Simon Alexander Ong 55:41 That's what we're talking about when we say energy. It's a language that has no words, but you and I can feel it. It's like when you go to a networking event and you're deciding who do I speak to? Who do I introduce myself to? If two people come up to you, you're naturally drawn to one over the other.

Ali Abdaal 55:55 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 55:56 Now, you can't explain it. You might just say there's just something about him or her, and that's what I'm talking about, about vibration, frequency, and energy. When we show up in a certain way, what happens is that we draw people into our field and they want to spend time with us. They want to help us. They want to see us get to that next level.

Ali Abdaal 56:15 Hmm. How does, how does one cultivate one's own sense of vibrational frequency/energy/vibes? Like, yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 56:22 Sure, and this is where we go into how I describe energy. Uh, so energy in the one sense is this life force that we all possess. So in the Maori culture, they call it mana. In my Chinese culture, we call it qi. If you are a fan of the Star Wars film franchise, you probably refer to it as the Force. So on the one hand, it's this life force that we all have, but we don't access enough. Now, in order to really elevate the energetic quality of our field, it requires us to look at four dimensions: physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. We as a society tend to only focus on the physical. Get more sleep, get more rest, move your body, feed yourself right.

Ali Abdaal 57:01 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 57:02 But we tend to neglect the other three, often because they're, they're more invisible, uh, the mental, emotional, and spiritual. But once we start addressing those other three dimensions, that's how we begin to show up with more energy. I mean, just imagine this for a moment. With regards to spiritual energy, you are doing something that is aligned to who you are, that allows you to express your strengths, and you feel that you're in flow most of the time. That's what we call high in spiritual energy. Low in spiritual energy is where the work that you're doing is not aligned to the work that you want to do, and that's where we have some tension that exists inside of us. And some of us may, may relate to this. You know, you go into work on a Monday morning, there is tension because you're doing work where you feel you're trapped or you're not able to express some of those skills that are still dormant inside of you for so long. Emotional energy is how you respond to what happens in the external world, but also how you relate to yourself and others. Now, when we can understand the way we relate to ourself and others and we can respond in a healthy way, that's where we begin bending and shaping our reality into one that is working for us and not against us. You know, in the book, Ali, I introduce this word to the audience. I say that we all know about the word paranoia. That is the feeling that somebody's out to sabotage me. I am not getting that promotion because somebody's trying to put me down or spread gossip. Why is it always me that I fail and that I, I can't get the success that other people are getting? The word I introduce people to is pronoia. Pronoia is this belief that the universe is conspiring in your favor, that life is working for you and not against you. And the question I give to my audience is imagine where life could be if you embraced pronoia, where every setback and challenge was meant to exist to give you a lesson, to serve you in some way. So this is all about emotional energy. Mental energy is then our ability to focus and access our creativity, which we all have. We're, we're born innately creative. So once we have the ability to focus on what is most important and access our creativity, we operate at a far higher energetic level. So once we begin focusing on these dimensions, that's what I mean by showing up with more energy.

Ali Abdaal 59:20 Hmm. And so the kind of vibe th- that someone would have if they have their physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual energy like aligned or in check or whatever-

Simon Alexander Ong 59:33 Hmm

Ali Abdaal 59:33 ... will naturally create some sort of X factor that makes you feel drawn to them as a person to be like-

Simon Alexander Ong 59:38 Definitely

Ali Abdaal 59:38 ... "This person seems cool."

Simon Alexander Ong 59:40 Definitely. I mean, even if, if, if we-- and if we look at this quote, and it just popped into my head, Ali, by Maya Angelou. She said, "When people hear you, they may forget who you are, they may forget what you say, but they will never forget how you made them feel." And that is talking to energy because when we walk out of a room and we've heard someone connect with us at an emotional level, we never forget that experience.

Ali Abdaal 1:00:09 So how does the book come into this? Like, what is, what is the book about?

Simon Alexander Ong 1:00:12 So the book taps into what I shared about energy within those four dimensions. It's about how we can transform the way we live and work by transforming our relationship with energy. And so it's also a journey of, of my own, you know, from the world of finance to what I do today, but also what I've learned from working with my clients, observing success stories around me, and the lessons that I've acquired along the way. And it's a, it's a stark reminder to people reading it that when we embrace that eternal student mindset, we begin to open our field to over a billion teachers around the world, that every person has a story to share and lessons to tell. And if we're humble enough to operate from that perspective, life can be so enjoyable. I mean, we're learning machines. We, we fully embrace that white belt mentality, and we become aware that there is so much that is possible.

Ali Abdaal 1:01:12 Okay. So let's, let's take things back to my junior doctor example, and I've got my thing in the calendar to do the podcast or maybe-- and m- maybe I'm sort of thinking, "Oh, this coach thing sounds kind of cool." Um, as you describe the energy thing, I'm thinking, yeah, I feel like I'm probably low on spiritual energy-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:01:34 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:01:34 ... because the thing that I'm doing in my day, in my day job feels like there's, there's this tension between-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:01:39 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 1:01:39 ... what I think I want and what I think my strengths are, i.e., learning and teaching and stuff, and, like, what I'm actually doing, i.e., being-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:01:45 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:01:45 ... an admin monkey broadly. I think physical health-wise, probably don't get enough sleep.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:01:52 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:01:52 Um, probably, you know, because I eat takeaway on the way home from work from the McDonald's drive-through.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:01:56 Mm. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:01:57 Uh, I don't take my health very seriously. That's actually what I do back in the day. [laughs] Um, mentally, I think I, I think I can focus reasonably well. And emotional, uh, I think I respond to people reasonably well.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:02:08 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:09 But I guess I, I see, I can see a big gap in physical and spiritual. Is, is that how-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:02:13 Yeah. So, so that-

Ali Abdaal 1:02:13 ... I'd be? Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:02:13 ... would be a good place to start because awareness is, is the most important place to start. I often say that we, we can't have self-development without self-awareness because you can't change what you're not aware of. And so once we've got an idea within those four dimensions, well, what is giving me energy? What is draining me of energy? Then the next thing I would say is then, given what you shared with me that you would like to do or what could be improved, if you were to pick just one-

Ali Abdaal 1:02:38 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:02:38 ... of the things that you shared with me, which one of those things that if you were to give attention to it would have the greatest impact on all the other areas for you?

Ali Abdaal 1:02:50 I mean, I think if I could magically make my job feel more in alignment with myself, then that would-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:02:54 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:02:54 ... have a big knock-on effect.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:02:55 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:55 But I feel like I'm kind of stuck in this job for the next-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:02:57 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:02:57 ... at le- at least for the next two years. So that almost seems like a non-starter-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:00 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 1:03:00 ... unless I'm, unless there's something I can do to ch- to change that.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:03 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 1:03:03 What do you think?

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:04 So what is in your control that you can do?

Ali Abdaal 1:03:07 Hmm. I mean, I can definitely stop eating takeaway from the M- McDonald's drive-through every day.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:13 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 1:03:14 I can definitely take my sleep a bit more seriously.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:17 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 1:03:17 Uh, go to bed, uh, because I know I have to wake up early to get to work, like 6:00 AM, but that means I could... It is in my control to sleep at 10:00 and get eight hours of sleep-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:25 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 1:03:25 ... rather than to take my phone into bed with me and, like, scroll Twitter for an hour-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:29 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:03:29 ... and then feel, like, bleary-eyed the next morning.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:31 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:03:32 Yeah, that's definitely in my control.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:33 Hmm. So when will you begin sleeping at that time so you can wake up less bleary-eyed-

Ali Abdaal 1:03:39 [laughs]

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:39 ... and not scrolling on your phones and waking up with low energy?

Ali Abdaal 1:03:43 You know what? Tonight I'm gonna do it.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:45 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:03:45 I'm g- I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna sleep at 10:00 because I know I have to wake up at 6:00 tomorrow.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:49 Fantastic. Well, let's touch base some more, and I look forward to hearing how much energy you have when you wake up with a full night's sleep.

Ali Abdaal 1:03:56 Nice.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:03:56 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:03:57 It, it'll, it'll, it'll all come together. Um, yeah, I think, I think this is great. Like, I fi- I find that even with... So much of coaching is just, like, asking, asking the questions and just providing a little bit of a prod of accountability.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:04:15 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:04:16 And people kind of know what the answer is. Like-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:04:18 We, we all do.

Ali Abdaal 1:04:19 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:04:19 And, and, and the thing is we know what the answers are deep inside of us. But for whatever reason, and it's different for each of us, we're afraid to take the steps forward. And sometimes it's just putting things in a new perspective, shifting our mind in a certain way-

Ali Abdaal 1:04:35 Mm

Simon Alexander Ong 1:04:36 ... to get those aha moments that will be the prod, as you say, for us to take action.

Ali Abdaal 1:04:41 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:04:42 You know, talking of skepticism, I remember I was invited to, uh, a company over in Canary Wharf to, to do a talk. And at the end of the event, one of these managers come, comes up to me, and, you know, these managers didn't have to come. They just kind of went along because it was hosted in the building. And he said to me, "Simon, what you said makes a lot of sense. Uh, I can hear what you're saying. Uh, but why is it important? Why, why should I listen to what you shared? Uh, what is incentive for me to, to apply this to my daily life?" And the question I asked him forced him to pause and to reflect, and that's one of the purpose behind good questions. I simply said to him, "When was the last time you felt truly happy?" And he had to pause, because it's the sort of question we don't really reflect on often. And it paused-- He paused because he had to think about that question a lot, which told me a lot of things. First thing it told me is that maybe he wasn't happy right now, the fact that he had to go and think about it. And he said, "You know what, Simon? It's interesting, that question. I'm just realizing as you ask me that question some of the cars I've bought, some of the investments I've made, they've been great for a while, but I don't think they really make me happy. And the question's quite challenging because I think it's been a long while since I have felt truly happy." And literally the question I asked next, it's, it was as simple as, "What does that tell you?" And that's because he already knows what it is telling him. Sometimes we just have to verbalize it in order to bring to our awareness of where we are and where we actually want to be. And so asking those questions in the moment really helped to shift his mind from one that was skeptical to one that was interested to what could be.

Ali Abdaal 1:06:34 This episode is very kindly brought to you by WeWork. Now, this is particularly exciting for me because I have been a full paying customer of WeWork for the last two years now. I discovered it during, you know, when the pandemic was in, on the verge of being lifted, and I'd spent, like, the whole year just sort of sitting in my room making YouTube videos. But then I discovered WeWork, and I was a member, me and Angus, my team members, we were members of the WeWork in Cambridge, and they have, like, hundreds of other locations worldwide as well. And it was incredible because we had this fantastic, beautifully designed office space to go to to work, and we found ourselves, like, every day just at 9:00 in the morning just going to WeWork because it was a way nicer experience working from the co-working space than it was just sitting at home working. These days, what me and everyone on my team has is the All Access Pass, which means you're not tied to a specific WeWork location, but it means you can use any of their several hundred co-working spaces around London, around the UK, and also around the world. And one of the things I really love about the co-working setup is that it's fantastic as a bit of a change of scenery. So these days I work from home. I've got the studio at home. But if I need to get some focused writing work done and I've been, I'm feeling a bit drained just sitting at my desk all day, I will just pop over to the local WeWork, which is about a 10-minute walk from where I am. I'll take my laptop with me. I'll get some free coffee from there. I'll get a few snacks, and it's just such a great vibe, and you get to meet cool people. I've made a few friends through meeting them at WeWork, and it's just really nice being in an environment almost like a library, but kind of nicer because there's, like, a little bit of soft music in the background, and there's other kind of startup bros and creators and stuff in, in there as well. And it's just my absolute favorite co-working space of all time. It's super easy to book a desk or book a conference room using the app, and it's a great place to meet up with team members if you're gonna collaborate and you all live in different places. They've got unlimited tea and coffee and herbal teas and drinks on tap, and they've also got various kind of after-work events that happen like happy hours and yoga and a few other exercise type things. And you can also take in guests. So often when guests will come over to visit, I'll say, "Hey, let's pop into WeWork," and we will just work from there for the whole day, and then we'll go out for dinner some time in the evening. Anyway, if you're looking for a co-working space for you or your team, then I'd 100% recommend WeWork. Like I said, I've been a paying customer for theirs for the last two years, which is why it's particularly exciting that they're now sponsoring this episode. And if you want to get 50% off your first booking, then do head over to we.co/ali, and you can use the coupon code ALI at checkout, A-L-I, to get 50% off your first booking. So thank you so much, WeWork, for sponsoring this episode. Let's

Ali Abdaal 1:08:38 take another couple of examples. I'm just like, this is, this is great.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:08:41 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:08:41 I just love how you're responding to all of-- Like, I'm, I'm, I'm tr- I'm tr- I'm trying to be a bit of a dick, like to be like-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:08:46 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:08:46 ... "Oh, come on, coaching." And then you're like, "Just ask," and I'm like, "Oh, you're right. That's a good question." [laughs] And then I'm really just like... And even, even, even though, like, I'm sort of in a way role-playing a character with this doctor thing-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:08:56 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:08:56 ... I'm, I'm sort of at the same time feeling like, oh, shit, that's a, that's a really good question.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:09:00 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:00 I should think about that in my own life as well.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:09:02 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:02 Um, so one thing that-- And now I'm kind of speaking completely personally.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:09:09 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:09 One, one, one thing that I struggle with is taking my physical health more seriously.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:09:13 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:14 In my mind, I have this idea of like, oh, it'd be cool to be a bit more ripped. It'd be cool to get maybe six-pack abs.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:09:20 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:20 But, like, uh, I c- I end up eating takeaway quite a lot, and-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:09:25 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:09:26 ... I think my health right at the moment is, like, fine. Like, it could be better-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:09:29 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:09:29 ... but it's, like, fine, and I'm not sure how much I care about the six-pack abs-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:09:33 Mm-hmm [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:09:33 ... versus... But, like, I know that, like, I should care about my physical health. And how, how should, how would... Yeah, if, if, if we were-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:09:42 Yeah. W- w- well, first of all, based on what you shared, Ali, if, if it's only for the six-pack abs and, you know, the muscle look, uh, that's not gonna be sufficient.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:50 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:09:50 Uh, you and I probably know that's not gonna be sufficient enough motivation, uh, to keep you consistent.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:55 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:09:55 Because everybody that starts their New Year's resolution with, "I wanna get fitter," "I wanna-"

Ali Abdaal 1:10:00 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:10:00 ... "lose weight," "I wanna get six-pack abs"-

Ali Abdaal 1:10:02 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:10:02 ... you know what happens.

Ali Abdaal 1:10:03 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:10:03 You know, they, they sign up to the gym. Three, four months later, they're using it far less than they ever did, and by the time we get to September, October, they're maybe using it once, once a week, twice a week, if that. And, and so we stop being consistent because what we know at a high level is that there's no such thing as overnight success. There's only over-time success. And so in order to play the long game and be consistent in having that healthy habit, we've got to have a purpose for it. And, and this is tied in with the concept of living with intention.

Ali Abdaal 1:10:34 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:10:34 What is your purpose to get fit? Why is it important to have a healthy lifestyle? Now, until you have a reason to have a healthy lifestyle, you're not gonna maintain that consistency.

Ali Abdaal 1:10:48 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:10:48 So for me, at the beginning, just to give you some background on how I've maintained my healthy lifestyle, at the beginning, it was simply because I knew I was going to get married in, in about 10 months, and I had just ordered a tailor-made suit, and I, I could lose weight, but I couldn't gain weight. Otherwise, I would have to buy another suit. And so that was my initial purpose, was that if I embrace a healthy lifestyle, I could fit in the suit, and I wouldn't have to worry about getting another one. Now, once I started to get into the routine after the wedding, it just became part of my lifestyle. And then another motivation kicked in later when I became a parent, is that I then wanted to live a long life so I could see my child grow up, go to school, go to college, experience life, go through their own personal development. And in order to do that, suddenly living a healthy life became a core to living a long life. And also because bringing to the mix the fact that I, I lost my mom when I was 17, that showed me how fragile life was, and I didn't want something that was in my control, i.e. physical health, to be a factor why I could not live a long life.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:04 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:12:04 If it's in my control, I wanted to make sure that I could address it to the best of my ability. And now that became a purpose for living a healthy lifestyle so that I could live a long life with my wife, and I could be there for my children when they grow up. That became something powerful enough to make going to the gym, going running outside, going swimming tiny in comparison to the rewards that I would get.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:26 Hmm. So is it about, like, essentially m- mapping out our motivation to want to do the thing?

Simon Alexander Ong 1:12:34 It's, it's to have a reason to do it.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:36 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:12:36 If you don't have a sufficient reason to do something, you're not gonna keep it up, and, and you have to have a reason to do something. The more important the reason and the more personal the reason, the more you're gonna keep at it.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:51 Hmm. So my thing of, like, it would be cool to get six-pack abs-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:12:55 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:12:55 ... because may- maybe I can, like, I don't know, become a Gymshark athlete or so- I, I, I don't actually care about that. It's not a thing that resonates. Like-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:13:02 Exactly

Ali Abdaal 1:13:02 ... that emotionally move-- It's just-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:13:03 And, and I think-

Ali Abdaal 1:13:03 ... it would be kinda cool, and then I can post a topless pic on Instagram.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:13:06 Exactly. And I think you've kind of answered your question there. You said it's not something you care about.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:09 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:13:10 And so my challenge to you would be to find something you care about in which that plays a role in whatever you care about.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:18 Okay. So let's say on the physical health front, like I love playing squash, tennis, badminton, and I don't do a lot of that right now because in my mind I'm sort of thinking, "But I wanna, I wanna get big for some reason."

Simon Alexander Ong 1:13:30 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:13:30 And I'm thinking like, "Well, uh, squash, badminton, I mean, like, I should probably just do weights and stuff."

Simon Alexander Ong 1:13:36 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:37 Um, but actually the thing I enjoy is playing squash with friends and doing like-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:13:41 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:13:41 ... potentially even hosting like a five-a-side football night with some friends-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:13:44 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:13:44 ... or like doing like a little, like, weekly badminton get-together, and that would be super fun because it's a sport that I enjoy, and it's socializing.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:13:51 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:52 Whereas right now it's just like, you know, I have an hour session with my personal trainer this evening, and I'm n- not looking forward to it.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:13:57 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:58 And I know it's gonna be a bit grim.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:13:59 Yeah. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something.

Ali Abdaal 1:14:01 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:01 It's interesting because what you shared, I'm gonna reflect back to you.

Ali Abdaal 1:14:04 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:04 You said that it'll be more fun if I did the squash and organize the football. It's very social.

Ali Abdaal 1:14:10 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:10 And I noticed you got quite excited sharing that. But then when it came to the personal trainer, your tone dropped-

Ali Abdaal 1:14:15 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:15 ... and you said, "Ah, it's grim. I'm not really looking forward to it."

Ali Abdaal 1:14:18 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:18 And you and I know we spoke about this before, that in order to actually be disciplined with a process, it's got to be fun and enjoyable.

Ali Abdaal 1:14:26 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:26 And so it sounds like you're going against what is actually fun and enjoyable for you-

Ali Abdaal 1:14:31 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:31 ... to do something which maybe you don't care so much about-

Ali Abdaal 1:14:34 Hmm

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:36 ... which is the getting big, Gymshark athlete-

Ali Abdaal 1:14:38 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:38 ... show the body off.

Ali Abdaal 1:14:40 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:40 But actually what brings you more fun and enjoyment is doing the squash and-

Ali Abdaal 1:14:44 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:44 ... spending time with friends, playing five-a-side football, whatever it is that, that you were mentioning just now. That's telling, isn't it?

Ali Abdaal 1:14:51 Hmm. Yeah. Why am I holding onto this six-pack abs?

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:56 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:14:57 Weird.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:14:58 And, and the thing is, is there's, there's never one route to get to a goal that is common amongst, amongst many of us.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:04 Hmm.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:15:05 Uh, there, there's a case study I show in the book about, uh, an athlete called Sophie Radcliff. She hated the gym.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:12 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:15:12 She never considered herself a natural athlete, and so instead what she did is she went outdoors. She signed herself up to challenges such as triathlons, cycling challenges, uh, climbing mountains, and, and these sort of things.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:26 Hmm.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:15:27 And she found so much joy and fulfillment from that, that actually her brand has just catapulted to the next level, and she's been partnering with the likes of US Staff and BBC and all these other brands who have followed her in her travels-

Ali Abdaal 1:15:40 Hmm

Simon Alexander Ong 1:15:40 ... to as far as Malaysia to Europe to America, to cycling challenges she has taken on. But all of these things are outdoors. They're outside of the gym, but they make her feel alive, and it's what she finds fun doing.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:54 Nice. We talked a little bit

Ali Abdaal 1:15:57 earlier about, you know, if you wanna stay disciplined with something it's important to find a way to make it enjoyable-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:16:01 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:16:01 ... to enjoy the process. Um, I very much vibe with that, uh, but it strikes me that it's, uh, it's qui- it's quite a privileged position to, to be in because a lot of people have to do things that they don't necessarily find fun-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:16:15 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:16:15 ... or particularly want to do.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:16:16 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:16:17 Any student that is like, "I want-- I know I want to be a doctor, but to get there I know I have to grind out these random subjects I actually don't care about, 'cause I know it's a prerequisite." Or someone who's working a job they might not necessarily enjoy because they have to pay the bills. How do we approach that? Like, how would you, how would, how would you be approaching that kinda thing?

Simon Alexander Ong 1:16:36 Sure. Well, first of all, I think there's, there's two camps to, to what you shared. On the one hand, it's well, is that thing you want actually what you want? Because if the steps required to get there isn't something that excites you-

Ali Abdaal 1:16:50 Hmm

Simon Alexander Ong 1:16:50 ... is that really what you want then? Because whenever you embark on a path, you are going to have to go things that you don't-- you have to go through doing things you don't want to do. The second camp is you might still like the destination, but you might not like that process-

Ali Abdaal 1:17:05 Hmm

Simon Alexander Ong 1:17:05 ... and you wanna get creative. So I think there's two camps.

Ali Abdaal 1:17:07 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:17:07 The first question is, is that actually something you wanna do if you don't-

Ali Abdaal 1:17:10 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:17:10 ... like the journey? The second is, if you do really like the outcome-

Ali Abdaal 1:17:14 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:17:14 ... how can you change the journey?

Ali Abdaal 1:17:16 Okay.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:17:16 And now that's where we can get a bit creative.

Ali Abdaal 1:17:18 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:17:19 If you look at-- A- and I'm gonna use the cooking world as an example, because there are some great case studies there. If you look at Heston Blumenthal, he has become one of the most well-known chefs in the world. He's become a TV personality. But yet, the guy has received no formal training.

Ali Abdaal 1:17:34 Hmm.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:17:34 He learnt by himself how to cook, and he ended up coming up with his own style of cooking, and that's what he became known for. So he bypassed what many would have had to take years to qualify in order to be, to have become the chef that they want to be. But Heston took a very different approach. If we look at another case study in the book that I wrote here, Kylie Flavel, uh, i- is a woman who I refer to in this case study. She moved from Australia to Italy, and she couldn't afford to pay a video production company to put together these YouTube videos. She wanted to create her own travel show where she would travel the world and interview local communities. So she hopped onto YouTube, and she learnt everything there was to know about editing, distribution, production, recording, directing, and producing, and she became a one-woman media company and has grown her YouTube channel massively since she first started and has partnered with some of the world's most well-known brands. So she bypassed the fact, again, she had to go to a school or to learn from people how to film and to get qualifications. So I think if it's something you really wanna do is if you don't like the process to get there, how can you be a bit more creative in arriving at the same destination? Because as I mentioned earlier, there's never just one way. We are quickly conditioned to think there is only one way. Just as I was when I grew up, I had to go to a good school, get top grades, get into a good university in order to get a good job. But actually, today, you can still get a good job by not going through the same process. So how do you think a little different in achieving the same aims?

Ali Abdaal 1:19:15 Okay, cool. So let's say I am... Yeah, thinking cool. A, I wanna get a coach myself, and that's, you know, I'll do some Googling. I'll find someone, maybe see if I've got anyone in my network who has some recommendations. And I'm also thinking, "Oh, I like this idea of becoming a coach." Like, w-what is the playbook for becoming a coach? Like, how, what-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:19:36 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:19:38 What, what... Like, let's say a friend of yours were to be like, "All right, Simon, I wanna, I wanna become a coach." Uh, what are the next steps that, that you should take?

Simon Alexander Ong 1:19:44 Sure. Well, I can only reference my own experience. Uh, the

Simon Alexander Ong 1:19:49 first that I would always say is to look at learning the skill of coaching.

Ali Abdaal 1:19:53 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:19:53 Um, because if you just jump straight into it-

Ali Abdaal 1:19:57 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:19:57 ... you will quickly be found out that you don't have the relevant experience-

Ali Abdaal 1:20:00 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:20:01 ... or qualifications. So I would first say learn about the skill of coaching, either by signing up to one of these courses where you can learn about the skill, signing up for qualification, or shadowing and learning from people who have done it for years. That would be my first step. Second, as with anything, y- you know, if you wanna become a writer, you write. If you wanna speak, you speak. If you wanna coach, coach. So get out there and start coaching people for free at the beginning.

Ali Abdaal 1:20:29 Hmm.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:20:29 Start building up that experience, because what happens when you start coaching people is that gives you exposure-

Ali Abdaal 1:20:38 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:20:38 ... to different people from different backgrounds-

Ali Abdaal 1:20:40 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:20:40 ... different life situations. Different goals, different aims. So what happens is the more people you coach through the way that you speak, through the way that you have these conversations, the more knowledge and wisdom you will have when it comes to coaching people that eventually pay you.

Ali Abdaal 1:20:54 Hmm. And so how would you go about finding these free clients? Would you say to your friends, "Hey, I'm gonna be a co- life coach. Could- do you wanna sign up?" Or what, what was the process?

Simon Alexander Ong 1:21:02 Definitely. I would say as with any business when you first start, tap your network.

Ali Abdaal 1:21:06 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:21:06 Tap your network at the beginning. When I first started, I just reached out to a few trusted friends and said, "I am looking to start my coaching business soon, and in order to build that experience, I'm looking for three people who would like to be coached by me for the next six months at zero cost in exchange for a testimonial and feedback." That's exactly how I started. Now, people love things for free-

Ali Abdaal 1:21:28 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:21:28 ... especially when they can get to experience something they've not had, been exposed to before. That's exactly how I started. And if it didn't go well, nothing to lose. They haven't paid me. This is not public. This is a very private conversation. If it did go well-

Ali Abdaal 1:21:43 Mm

Simon Alexander Ong 1:21:43 ... chances are they would refer me to their network, and they would write a glowing testimonial. And so those things would lead to my next clients and my next clients.

Ali Abdaal 1:21:52 Nice. And I guess, uh, so the, the, the other day I'm, I'm-- I met someone who, who recognized me in the station and, you know, she said that, you know, she'd, you know, been, been in medicine for 14 years-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:03 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:22:03 ... and was leaving to become a coach and was doing a coaching qualification.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:06 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:22:06 And we grabbed breakfast a couple days later and, um, she was doing a lot of, like, uh, had, had, had-- was doing a qualification and therefore through that found a bunch of free people-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:15 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:22:15 ... that, that she was coaching.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:17 Sure.

Ali Abdaal 1:22:17 And I was sort of challenging her on why she wasn't charging for the thing just yet.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:22 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 1:22:22 She said, "Oh, you know, I need to wait another six months until my qualification finishes." And I was like, "Okay, cool. What then?" And then she was like, "Oh, well, you know, then I need to set up and build my-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:28 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:22:28 ... build my brand, set up my website, like, you know, organic marketing, content marketing," and such. And I was like, "I mean, what's stopping you from-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:35 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:22:35 ... trying to make the sale, from charging, charging the money?"

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:37 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:22:37 And there-- then there was a lot of, like, emotional barriers-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:40 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:22:40 ... around, like, the fear of charging money for a thing.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:43 Mm. Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:22:44 Um, how did you get a- like, how-- or what was your experience of dealing with, like... 'Cause ev- anytime someone sells something, especially selling a service-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:52 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:22:52 ... something that feels as personal as coaching, it always feels like there's a bit of, like, a ugh response to-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:57 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:22:57 ... to, to the selling of the thing.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:22:59 A-a-again, I think when we have a bit of a tension inside when we're selling something, my experience tells me is that because you don't believe it, in it enough. You don't believe in what you have to offer enough. I mean, if you really believe that what you are offering, whether it's a product or whether it is a service, has value to the person's life-

Ali Abdaal 1:23:19 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:23:20 ... it is easy to sell.

Ali Abdaal 1:23:21 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:23:21 It is easy to sell because you're coming from a place of, "I know this can have an impact on your life."

Ali Abdaal 1:23:27 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:23:27 "I know that if we were to work together, I don't know what the outcomes will be, but I know you will be in a very different place 12 months from now." Now, if you truly believe that, it comes across. The selling becomes easy. Now, of course it is challenging at the beginning. Uh, you know, when I had the opportunity to meet my first CEO client of a major business, I had imposter syndrome. I was like, "Am I ready to work with someone at that level?" And then I realized that in order to show up and serve them in a powerful way, I had to act in the present as the person that I wanted to be tomorrow. And that really helped to build that belief, to see that I was ready-

Ali Abdaal 1:24:10 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:24:10 ... for what was coming, but also I was ready to have those conversations.

Ali Abdaal 1:24:15 Yeah, it strikes me that this is-- this thing of n-n-not believing in your own, your own product almost-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:24:21 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:24:21 ... is a, again, just to, to, to use a YouTube example, is, is an issue I see with a lot of YouTuber friends. And I, I have this a lot myself sometimes, which is where there's a bit of internal tension around making a video-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:24:32 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:24:32 ... because you're like, "Oh, is, is this video actually good enough? I'm, I'm not sure if this-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:24:35 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:24:35 ... if this is actually gonna be valuable."

Simon Alexander Ong 1:24:37 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:24:38 Um, but what I find, you know, as Austin Kleon wr-writes about, is that, you know, what's-- uh, like usually we are our own worst critics.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:24:47 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:24:47 And the bar that we have for something that we put out is generally different to the bar that the audience has. And I could put out something that I potentially think is bad-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:24:57 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:24:57 ... but could actually be really helpful to 10,000 people.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:25:00 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:25:00 Mm. Possibly not 10 million people, but hey, whatever. But at least 10,000 people would find it useful. And so in, in that sense, what, what do you think is this balance between that internal feeling that I might have of like, "Oh, my, my product isn't good enough. I feel, I feel a bit weird about it," versus the fact that even in its bad state, it could well be quite useful to someone?

Simon Alexander Ong 1:25:19 And it goes back to this idea of being attached to the outcome and open to everything. It's that when we're detached from the outcome, we're just focused on the process. We get the first video out, then we simply step back and we ask ourself, one, what went well, and two, what could be better next time? And then we do the next video, ask ourself the same question. Do the next video, ask ourself the same question. So what we're focusing on is less the outcome from each video, but more the improvement from video to video.

Ali Abdaal 1:25:44 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:25:44 And that's what's most important because as you said, you can put out what you think is a bit of bad content, but actually people lap it up. You could put out a bit of good content that you think should do really well but just doesn't do as great as you think. And it's the same thing with my book. You know, I wrote this book, and there's parts of the book I think are really good that people are gonna really enjoy, and parts that I think are not as good as some other parts.

Ali Abdaal 1:26:07 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:26:08 But when the book is out in, in the open, I suddenly get feedback, and I'm seeing some people highlighting pages-

Ali Abdaal 1:26:14 Yeah

Simon Alexander Ong 1:26:14 ... that I felt weren't as good as I thought it was, and suddenly they found it really good. And so I think it shows us that you can't always predict people's feedback and opinion and views before you put a piece of content out. And it is why, again, the process is so important. Focus on the improvement rather than the quality of every video. Because if you let quality be your benchmark, especially when you're just starting, you're gonna give up. You're gonna say, "I don't have this camera. I don't have these resources. I don't have this team." Well, of course, nobody had that when they first started, but you've gotta start somewhere.

Ali Abdaal 1:26:49 I love that, yeah. Yeah, I had a, I had a moment in... It was in one of our YouTuber Academy cohorts-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:26:54 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:26:54 ... where someone said, like, you know, they'd bought the, like, the most expensive package, and they were like, "Oh, you know, I just wanna say you've really changed my life."

Simon Alexander Ong 1:27:00 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:00 "That video that you put out on how to, how to beat imposter syndrome-"

Simon Alexander Ong 1:27:03 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:03 "... that, that, that video really resonated with me." And I was so surprised, because that was one of the worst performing videos on the channel.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:27:08 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:27:08 I was like, "What?" And she was like, "Yeah, you know, it's because of that video that I started my YouTube channel and I re- you know, got a promotion at work-"

Simon Alexander Ong 1:27:14 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:14 "... because I realized that I could beat imposter syndrome this way-"

Simon Alexander Ong 1:27:17 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:17 "... and that's why I've signed up to your course." And I was just, like, completely floored.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:27:20 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:20 'Cause in my mind, that was a dud video. It was awful.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:27:22 Well, it, well, it's funny-

Ali Abdaal 1:27:23 Yeah. [laughs]

Simon Alexander Ong 1:27:23 ... because you mentioned an Austin Kleon quote earlier. Uh, and another Austin Kleon quote just came up in my head, which is, "We find our voice by using our voice."

Ali Abdaal 1:27:31 Mm.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:27:32 And that is the process of iteration. You know, the more you use your voice, the more you can find what your voice is. You're not gonna find it by overthinking on the sidelines to the point of it being too curated that you've kinda lost your voice in it.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:46 Yeah.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:27:46 You've just gotta, as, as Seth Godin says, "Ship it."

Simon Alexander Ong 1:27:50 Just keep shipping, shipping, shipping. Eventually, you find out what your voice is.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:53 Mm. I love it. Simon, thank you so much. This has been absolutely wonderful. I feel like I came into this thinking like, "Okay, right, this, this coaching thing is, should, is surely, surely..." Like, even... And, and it's weird because, like, I've had coaches basically nonstop for the last, like, three years-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:28:07 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:28:08 ... and it's been one of the most fricking incredible ROI positive in-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:28:11 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:28:11 ... investments of my life. And actually, like three days ago, started working with maybe the most expensive coach I've ever worked with. He's, like, a CEO coach.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:28:17 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:28:17 And immediately in, like, session number one, it just made-

Simon Alexander Ong 1:28:20 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:28:20 ... so many breakthroughs, and he wasn't even telling me much. He was just asking the right questions.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:28:24 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:28:24 But it was just like somehow so, so incredibly valuable. And even though I was trying to, I was trying to give you a hard time, you... I th- just thought the way you responded to everything was just so great, and you have this such, this such, like, warm and, like, zen energy about you.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:28:37 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:28:37 And it's just like unflappable, just chill. And just, like, asking such good questions that really strike at, "Oh, my God, yeah, you're right."

Simon Alexander Ong 1:28:44 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:28:45 That's, that's so true. Um, so thank you so much for being so gracious with your time. Uh, so wonderful.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:28:48 Thank you so much for having me, Ali.

Ali Abdaal 1:28:49 Um, any final asks for the audience, anyone who might be watching or listening to this?

Simon Alexander Ong 1:28:54 A final thought, and it's one that I share in chapter two of my book, which is in April 2020, my wife and I gave birth to our first child just a few days after the country went into its first lockdown, and that process reminded me of something that we so often forget, which is that we are all a miracle. Uh, I mean, the fact that we were born is a miracle event in itself. We have won the greatest lottery ticket there is going. I mean, people dream about winning the jackpot in the national regional lottery, where we literally have won the greatest jackpot there is going, the lottery of life. And the question I love to leave the audience with is this: What are you going to do with that winning ticket of yours?

Ali Abdaal 1:29:40 I love it. Simon, thank you so much.

Simon Alexander Ong 1:29:42 Thank you.

Ali Abdaal 1:29:43 All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode. So thanks for watching. Uh, do hit the subscribe button if you aren't already, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.