The Difference Between Healthy and Toxic Relationships

Ali Abdaal 0:00 Hey, friends, and welcome back to Deep Dive, the podcast where I have the immense pleasure of sitting down with authors and experts and entrepreneurs and other inspiring people so that we can learn from them to help build lives that we love. Today, we have got a very special episode. We're gonna be hearing from a group of relationship experts about how you can find love and build healthy relationships. So whether you're totally new to the world of dating or you're looking to strengthen a long-term existing relationship, this episode is a bit of a rundown from some of the world's leading experts about everything you need to know. First up, we have Matthew Hussey and Dr. Logan Ury. Matthew is a super popular dating coach who has loads of experience in helping people find love, and Dr. Logan is a behavioral scientist and the author of the fantastic book, How to Not Die Alone. They're gonna share their tips and tricks for successful dates, and they'll explain why attraction is not the only thing you need to consider when looking for a partner. Then Drs. John and Julie Gottman and Hannah Witton will talk about making sure your relationship is as happy as possible. The Gottmans are world-renowned relationship experts who have studied the science of long-term relationships, and Hannah Witton is a content creator who specializes in sex education. They're here with practical advice on how to handle disagreements and suggestions about how to run a relationship review system, which is what I do with my partner, to make sure that you and your partner are on the right track. And finally, Francesca Specter, author of the book Alonement, will explain why it's still super important to have alone time and take care of yourself when you're in a relationship. So let's get into it.

Matthew Hussey 1:21 I talk about the, um, there being a kind of a, a formula, and I don't mean this crudely. I, I just mean there are certain components to deep and lasting attraction. You have chemistry, um, perceived value, perceived challenge, and connection. The reason I like this model is because when you look at this, you can usually see, you can sort of self-diagnose where something may be going wrong.

Ali Abdaal 2:01 Mm-hmm.

Matthew Hussey 2:03 Chemistry is interesting because there's certain, there's a certain intangible there and an unknown there and not-- we certainly can't control all of it, but we can control some of it. You know, with the way, the way that we look, how well we take care of ourselves, the way we move importantly is a big factor in chemistry, um, which is why you can sometimes see someone in photos and think they're really attractive, and then you meet them in real life and you kinda go, "Oh, weird." [chuckles] "I don't feel the same way." It's also why you can get back from a date and, and say, "Oh my God, I just had th-this amazing date with this incredibly hot person." And if you show pictures of that person to your friends, they're like, "Okay."

Ali Abdaal 2:42 Yeah. [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 2:42 [laughs] "I guess." You know, uh, because you, you were there.

Ali Abdaal 2:47 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 2:47 You were there. You saw how they move, how they smile, how they, how they gesture, how they, their microexpressions. So there's certainly things we can do to affect chemistry. Uh, and obviously you can create tension too, which is a big factor in chemist- in chemistry. Then there's perceived value, and perceived value is all these things that, that we are and do that bring value to the table. Uh, it might be our personality. Uh, it might be the things that we're good at in life. It might be our life, the life that we've built. Um, can sometimes be our friends and family. You know, sometimes you meet someone's friends and family and you go, "Whoa, this is-- what a life this is to come into."

Ali Abdaal 3:25 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 3:25 They have an amazing group of people around them, so much love, so much... So there's a lot of ways for perceived value to, to manifest itself. Then there's perceived challenge, and the interesting thing about perceived value is it goes down regardless of how many things are in that category if there's no perceived challenge.

Ali Abdaal 3:47 Hmm.

Matthew Hussey 3:48 And perceived challenge is not, uh, the kind of, I don't know, a typical way of thinking about it, I guess, would be, like, hard to get.

Ali Abdaal 3:58 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 3:58 It's not-- That's a cheap way to create challenge 'cause the problem with hard to get is you can't keep it up forever. The moment you are got-

Ali Abdaal 4:08 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 4:08 ... if someone's, if your attraction was built around the getting-

Ali Abdaal 4:12 Hmm

Matthew Hussey 4:13 ... then you can't sustain it. But if the, the, the real beautiful, sustainable way to create challenge is for there to be, uh, for your value to have a price.

Ali Abdaal 4:26 Okay, what do you mean?

Matthew Hussey 4:28 That, that your value doesn't come for free. Your value is something that has to be earned by the, someone showing up in the way you're prepared to show up, by someone being prepared to make the kind of sacrifices you're prepared to make for someone, um, by someone giving to you on a level that you're willing to give, respecting you on a level that, that you respect them, um, and also not giving someone too much credit too quickly. That's a, a big problem. When we come from a needy place, when we come from a place of insecurity, we start giving people credit they don't deserve yet. "I just met the m- I just had the most amazing date with the most amazing person. Oh my God, they're incredible." Based on what? Based on how-- For-- On what basis, what information could you have possibly got on one date that enables you to say this? You have been seduced by a kind of charm, a charisma maybe, uh, the fact that you did something really fun on the date, the fact that they made you laugh a lot, the fact that they told stories about their past that made them relatable or sympathetic or seem really a-authentic. All of that is great. I'm not be- I'm not saying be inherently suspicious. I'm saying you don't know.

Ali Abdaal 5:50 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 5:52 You don't know. So on what basis are you giving them all of this value already based on projection and based on insecurity? There's immediate putting them on a pedestal and putting yourself down here, and when someone smells that- They don't see an equal anymore. And that's, that's what I mean when I say challenge. I don't mean artificially constructing games or hoops for people to jump through. I mean that the, the criteria you have for someone has to be real.

Ali Abdaal 6:26 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 6:27 It has to be real. Like, it's you and I met today for the first time, really enjoying our conversation. Hope you are too.

Ali Abdaal 6:37 Absolutely. [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 6:37 You know? But we don't know each other yet as friends. You don't know if I'd be reliable if you needed something. You don't know if I would show up to support you if something went wrong in your life. You don't know, you don't know any of that. So, you know, it would be dangerous to go away and make a, an assessment on how great of a friend I would be-

Ali Abdaal 7:03 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 7:03 ... based on this exchange. It, what, what you would hope in an organic situation is that you and I go, "This was really, really fun. We got on really well. This was a great conversation. I would like to get to know this guy better."

Ali Abdaal 7:19 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 7:19 "That would be, like, it'd be really cool if we could hang out outside of the podcast." But it's not, "I have to be friends with, with Ali, you know? Like, we ha- we, I have to-

Ali Abdaal 7:30 [laughs]

Matthew Hussey 7:30 ... because he, he's a, he's an amazing guy." You know? Like-

Ali Abdaal 7:33 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 7:33 ... that's, that, now that's projection. That's dangerous because I'm basing that on the fact that you're clearly outwardly a very impressive human, and what you've achieved, what you've done is very impressive, and you seem to have had a really amazing kind of impact on a lot of people, and those are all amazing things. Those are amazing things in their own right. It's not about devaluing those. But I have no idea what your value would be as a friend-

Ali Abdaal 8:03 Mm

Matthew Hussey 8:04 ... until we try being friends.

Ali Abdaal 8:07 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 8:08 And the p- mistake people make in dating commonly is they look at someone's stats.

Ali Abdaal 8:15 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 8:16 How charming were they? How charismatic were they? How successful are they? Um, you know, where are they in their life? What kind of person do they seem to be? But none of that exists in relation to, to you. That's all just you admiring what this person has or is. But none of it says this person's gonna be a great boyfriend or a great girlfriend. None of it says they're gonna be loyal. None of it says they're gonna be reliable. None of it says they're gonna be a great teammate. All it says is this person seems, on these metrics, to be attractive. And in any relationship, you have to go through four, for, in terms of importance, you have to go through four stages. One is admiration [laughs] . That's just where I can s- see someone and admire them from a f- either up close or afar. "Wow, this person's pretty impressive and attractive." Not very important. In the stages, not important.

Ali Abdaal 9:14 Yep.

Matthew Hussey 9:15 Necessary, but not important.

Ali Abdaal 9:17 Yep.

Matthew Hussey 9:19 Then there's, uh, uh, connection or chemistry. The, you, both. You need, you know, the, that's the next stage of do we feel connected to each other, and is there a kind of chemistry?

Ali Abdaal 9:30 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 9:31 All right. Now it's slightly more important because now it becomes mutual.

Ali Abdaal 9:35 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 9:35 Now it's not just me admiring you. It's, "Oh, there's something between us."

Ali Abdaal 9:39 Yep.

Matthew Hussey 9:42 Not important. Because necessary-

Ali Abdaal 9:45 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 9:45 ... but not important. How many people have ruined their lives over the fact that they had chemistry with someone-

Ali Abdaal 9:51 Mm

Matthew Hussey 9:51 ... even when that person was a terrible partner, a terrible person to base their, their decisions on? The next stage is, uh, commitment. Okay, I admire you. We have mutual chemistry and connection, and we're both actually saying yes to each other.

Ali Abdaal 10:10 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 10:11 I deal with people every day where they have this stage.

Ali Abdaal 10:13 Yep.

Matthew Hussey 10:14 But that person isn't saying yes. They're saying, "Yeah, I, I'd like to see you this Friday at 11:00." But they're not saying yes to an actual relationship. So you need commitment to go to the next stage of importance, but many people are treating something like it has total importance even though they're only at the second stage. So you need a yes. You need commitment. Now, you would say if you've got that, that's the most important thing you can have. You've got someone you admire, you've got someone you have a connection with and chemistry, and you've got someone who is committed. It would seem like that was everything, but that kind of idea, is it Virgil? Love conquers all? It, it, love does not conquer all.

Ali Abdaal 10:55 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 10:57 Two people saying yes to each other doesn't, doesn't make for a long-term-

Ali Abdaal 11:01 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 11:01 ... relationship. You also have to have the fourth stage of importance, which is compatibility.

Ali Abdaal 11:05 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 11:07 Are you actually compatible? Because if you're not, you can say, "Yes, I wanna be with you. Yes, I'm committed," but that lack of compatibility will show up in ways that will make both of you miserable.

Ali Abdaal 11:20 Well, what do you mean by compatibility?

Matthew Hussey 11:22 It could be anything. It could be, uh, my idea of a good time is staying home watching movies, and yours is constantly traveling around the world.

Ali Abdaal 11:30 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 11:31 It could be your idea of a good time is going out and drinking and doing drugs, and I don't wanna live that life.

Ali Abdaal 11:38 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 11:38 And we've both said yes to each other, but the, you know, our idea of what is a good life is completely different, or our idea of loyalty is completely different. Your idea of loyalty is that I don't have sex with anyone. My idea of loyalty is that you don't emotionally cheat on me in the texts you send.

Ali Abdaal 11:58 Yeah.

Matthew Hussey 11:59 You know? That we've both said yes to each other. We have admiration, connection, com- commitment, and yet I am miserable-

Ali Abdaal 12:09 Yeah

Matthew Hussey 12:10 ... because of what your definition of loyalty is. So compatibility is do we both wanna live the same kind of life, and, and do our values line up, and do we both have the same idea? Two people can say, "I value kindness," but we can have very different standards for what kindness actually means. So without that stage, so many things go wrong. My- what, what I mean to say with all of this is that w- we lose our value in dating when we stop paying attention to the appropriate level of importance at different stages. If you s- take stage two, I found someone I have a connection with, as the be-all, end-all, and the thing that you martyr yourself in service of, you lose all your value. You, you are now the person who spends a lifetime, uh, accepting really poor treatment from someone because every time you see them, it's amazing. You don't understand. When we're together, it's so good. It's so incredible. They're so there for me. The, the sex is amazing. The chemistry is amazing. We have such amazing conversations. What's the problem? I haven't heard from them in two weeks. But Matt, you don't understand. The connection is incredible. You don't under- like, this, this is really important to me. Why? Why? Because you, you have miscalculated the value of stage two.

Ali Abdaal 13:46 Mm.

Matthew Hussey 13:47 And when you do that, you lose your value because someone realizes your value, what you're willing to give, has no price. It's free. It does not need to be earned. So your perceived challenge drops, and when your perceived... When there's no challenge to you, when someone realizes your value has no price, then you lose respect.

Ali Abdaal 14:10 One of the things you talk about in the book is the idea of, um, prom date versus life partner, and if I kinda paraphrase, uh, there are different things that we're looking for in a prom date, where maybe we're focused on how attractive are they and how adventurous and risky and interesting do they seem, whereas there are different qualities that we look for in a life partner, which are more like, I think, growth mindset, uh, emotional maturity, the ability to fight well and communicate clearly, et cetera. Um, uh, d- how... When, when it comes to, like, first and second dates, how would you go about sussing out the more deeper qualities where, uh, in, in the context of a date where, like, everyone is kind of putting on their best behavior, you would, you would think?

Logan Ury 14:49 Great. So yes, I love this concept, and I think that it's really important in people's personal development to make that shift from the prom date to the life partner, and unfortunately, some people just think, oh, that happens with time. But no, I think you really have to make a concerted effort to say, like, yeah, that guy's really hot, and it'd be fun to sleep with him, but he's actually not that reliable. I don't know if he'll show up when he says he will. I'm constantly worried about him letting me down, and actually, what I'm experiencing isn't chemistry, it's anxiety. And so that's the prom date, and now I'm going to reject that person and move towards a life partner. And so for anyone listening or watching, I would say if you consistently find yourself with prom dates, I want you to focus on the life partner.

Ali Abdaal 15:31 Mm.

Logan Ury 15:31 In terms of how to find these people early on, I think you can do it as early as the profile, the messaging, and first dates, and it's really about coming up with some questions that help you elicit certain responses. And so something about the growth mindset is people with a growth mindset feel like they can try new skills safely, and even if they're bad at them, that's totally fine because life is about getting better, as opposed to somebody with a fixed mindset who says, "You're born with these skills, and you can't improve them." So a question I've been encouraging people to ask over the last two years while we've been in the pandemic is something like, "What's something that you were bad at that you've gotten better at?" Or, "Have you invested any time, especially during lockdown, in working on any skills?" And, you know, you can iterate that, on that and make it sound more casual, but just understanding is this the kind of person who says, "I have a lot of alone time. I'm gonna learn to speak Spanish," or did they just spend more time playing video games, right? Like, what is this person's orientation toward growth? In terms of loyalty, a really important quality, you can ask these people, you know, "Do you have friends from different stages of your life?" Or, "What is the best gift you've ever given?" There's chances where you say, "This is the quality in the person I'm looking for. This is the question that strategically helps me understand if they have that, and then I'm actually going to listen to their answer and see how it jives with me and not just say, 'Well, actually, all their answers were terrible, but they're so hot I'm gonna ignore it.'"

Ali Abdaal 17:01 [laughs]

Logan Ury 17:01 No, no, no. That's a prom date thing.

Ali Abdaal 17:03 Yeah.

Logan Ury 17:03 Listen to their answers and say, "Is this the kind of person that I wanna keep getting to know, or do I wanna find someone who's more aligned with the qualities I'm looking for?"

Ali Abdaal 17:12 Hmm. Yeah, one of the, one of the things that I, I accidentally did, this was before I read the book, is that, um, on this, uh, with, with this girl who I'm, I'm now, like, I guess in a relationship with, uh, well, that feel, that still feels weird to say, um, on our, on our second date-

Logan Ury 17:26 Yay

Ali Abdaal 17:26 ... we went to play Topgolf, which is, like, this cross between 10-pin bowling and a golf drivers, driving range, and neither of us had ever played golf before. And so I messaged her being like, "Hey, do you wanna try this golf thing?" And she was like, "I mean, I've never played golf before." I was like, "Me neither. Let's just give it a go," and she was totally up for it, and that was one of the things that really stood out where I was like, she was totally cool with actually trying out this new thing, being okay with looking like a bit of an idiot playing, both of us playing this sport that we never played before. Um, and so I really liked that as, um, a thing. And then I read the growth mindset stuff in the book, and I was like, ooh, I kind of accidentally [laughs] kind of selected for that particular quality, which was kinda nice.

Logan Ury 18:01 I, I love that story so much. I think there's so much to that. First of all, you were brave in suggesting something that you weren't good at. There might be somebody out there who says, "Oh, I only take people on dates to things I'm really good at so that I look good in a certain light." No, what you were showing is that you're fun and spontaneous and willing to try new things and be bad at them, and she was also willing to do that, so I think that's a great idea. I talked before about dating like a scientist. Part of dating like a scientist is having a hypothesis, testing it, and then looking at the data. And so a big thing that people have been asking me in the last year or so is, "I want to ask people if we can do a phone call or a video date before we meet up, but some people will be turned off by that." I think using what you said, um, "Hey, on a scale of, uh, this is scary to I'm interested, how open are you to having a phone call or a video call?" That could be a cool way of doing it. But I also think just asking and seeing how the person responds gives you a lot of data. So maybe somebody says, "A video call? What, are you screening me for a job? That's weird. No." Or they say, "I haven't done that before, but I'm open to it." And so it's each moment is a chance to see you're putting out, um, some sort of stimulus, and you're seeing how they're responding to it, and that gives you a lot of information. And so do the bold thing, ask the question, and see if they can roll with it. Or are they so traditional and so tied to certain norms that that freaks them out? Well, if you don't like that, then that's maybe not the kind of person you want to be with.

Ali Abdaal 19:31 Nice. One of the things that you talk about is the sort of ref- actively reflecting on a date when you get back from it. Um, and I wanted to ask, like, to what extent... Like, wh- what are the sorts of questions that we should be asking when we get back from dates? And to what extent is, like, a sort of checklist approach to this a good idea? Because we talk about things like growth mindset and emotional maturity and ability to communicate. Is that the sort of thing, like, uh, similar to how, like, if you're hiring someone for a job, you want to have, like, a scorecard, and you want to be able to evaluate each candidate against the scorecard. Is this the sort of person who would be able to do X? To what extent is that, like, a decent approach when it comes to dating and reflecting on dates afterwards?

Logan Ury 20:10 In general, I think that having a checklist is not helpful because often what's on that checklist is the wrong stuff.

Ali Abdaal 20:18 Mm-hmm.

Logan Ury 20:18 It's height, income, perceived success, do we have the same hobbies. I think a lot of times that checklist is based on what we think matters in long-term relationships, which the research shows us doesn't matter in long-term relationships. So as a concept, I would say throw out your checklist, be willing to date someone who's not your type. It is very possible that the person you end up with, the person who makes you happiest long term, is not the person you thought you would be with.

Ali Abdaal 20:44 Mm.

Logan Ury 20:45 That being said, in my book, I offer this exercise called the Post-Date Eight. The Post-Date Eight is based on research on gratitude journals. So there's amazing research from many people, including Sean Acor of Harvard, that says if at the end of the day you have to write down three things that you're grateful for, your brain will actually be looking for them throughout the day. So if you're running to make the bus and you make it, maybe five minutes later you forget about it. But if you know la- at that night you have to write it down, then you're going to notice it more. So what we do at the end impacts what we look for throughout. So the Post-Date Eight is the same idea. I've taken what I believe and what the research shows matters for evaluating a date. I've turned it into these list of eight questions. Things like, how did I feel in my body around this person? Do I feel curious about this person? What side of me did this person bring out? And then throughout the date, you aren't looking at their height and their job. You're paying attention to those things. And at the end of the date, you ask yourself the Post-Date Eight to decide, do I want to see this person again? And so it is a version of a checklist, but it's a checklist designed to help you focus on what matters, not what doesn't.

Ali Abdaal 21:58 Nice. And, uh, I wonder if you can give some examples of, like, what, what are some of the questions in the Post-Date Eight?

Logan Ury 22:03 Sure. So from all the research that I've done, and even the coaching I've done since my book has come out, this one of what side of me did this person bring out is huge because it helps you understand great on paper brings out a bad side of me, I don't want to see them again. That's a really helpful insight. Another one is this idea of do they energize me or de-energize me. So there's an activity called a penthouse and a basement person. You think in your life, not even in a romantic setting, who is my penthouse person? Who when I'm with them do they bring my energy up? Do I feel creative? Do I feel inspired? So for you, who's your penthouse person?

Ali Abdaal 22:41 Who's my penthouse person? Uh, I can think of a, a few university friends. I think my brother is one of my penthouse people, which is why we kind of decided to start a podcast together. Um, my current housemate is a penthouse person definitely. [laughs]

Logan Ury 22:52 I love that. Yeah, so you have this penthouse person. That's another helpful benchmark.

Ali Abdaal 22:56 Mm.

Logan Ury 22:56 And you have a basement person, somebody who makes you feel depressed, down, de-energized. And so just asking this question, did I feel more energized or less energized after the date, helps you understand where that person falls and helps you get closer to finding a penthouse person. Because of course, the person you end up with in a romantic relationship, you want them to bring out that inspired, capable, creative part of you.

Ali Abdaal 23:18 Mm.

Logan Ury 23:19 And so it's really helping you understand what stuff matters, what stuff to pay attention to, and it ignores things like, did I think they have an impressive job and do we have enough hobbies in common, stuff that people think matters but really doesn't.

Ali Abdaal 23:35 Nice. Um, uh, y- one of the things that you talk about in the book is to always go on the second date. Uh, what's the, what's the deal with that? [laughs]

Logan Ury 23:44 Yes. So there's a whole idea in behavioral science of defaults, and so whatever we create as a default sticks with us. So if a hamburger place has fries as the default, most people will stick with that and get the fries. If a hamburger place has a salad as a default, most people will stick with that. In general, we stick with what the default is and these rules of thumbs. The next thing is that in dating, I think we put too much pressure on the first date. Some of the best people I know do not perform well on first dates. They are awkward. They are not comfortable. They are not good at small talk. They are more introverted. This is harder for them. But these are people who would make great long-term partners. And so how can we actually take the pressure off the first date and say, first dates are almost a warm-up round. It's Uh, do I like the sound of your voice? Am I attracted to you? Do we have something to talk about? And I'm gonna assume that we're gonna go on the second date pending that nothing crazy or terrible or unsafe happens on the first date. And that way, if you go in assuming you'll go on the second date, you're giving people more of a shot, and it's easier to find those diamond in a rough people who get better over time. And one of the things I talk about throughout the book is this idea of fuck the spark, go after the slow burn. The spark is somebody who gives you instant chemistry. They make you feel so attracted to them, like you've known them for a million years. But honestly, a lot of sparky people are charismatic but also narcissistic. They're focused on getting you to fall for them, but they're not actually asking themselves if they like you.

Ali Abdaal 25:17 Mm.

Logan Ury 25:17 The spark is something that you can chase that burns, that burns out quickly. Instead, you wanna find the slow burn, someone who you like more and more over time. Your appreciation for them grows, and those are really the people to go after. And so some of my friends who are in the best relationships that I admire, they had terrible first dates. But either because I told them to go on a second date or their mom told them to go on a second date, they gave that person more of a chance. And so you will find some great people if you make the second date the default.

Ali Abdaal 25:48 Let's say someone's listening to this or watching this and they're thinking, "Oh, damn, you know, I'm-- I've definitely got some of-- one or more of those in my relationship." What are the actions that someone can take if they recognize that their relationship is sort of falling into one of these four horsemen?

Dr. John Gottman 26:02 Well, one of the best things, uh, that you can do, um, we call processing a regrettable incident. Now, here's what that means. Um, this is a particular intervention. When you've had a really bad fight where some of those four horsemen have thundered through the conversation, um, it's really important to go back with your partner and talk about what happened in the, in the way that you communicated, what went wrong in the way you communicated, and then apologize for it. And we have a five-step process for this where each person names their feelings that they had during the regrettable incident, then they narrate their point of view about what transpired. And needless to say, there's always two points of view, and they could feel like they're on opposite planets, but they're both valid. They're both right. So each one presents their point of view. The other one summarizes what they just heard the partner say and gives a few words of validation like, "I get it. I can see how you would've felt that way." And then third, they talk about what may have gotten triggered for them. And triggers mean feelings that come up for you during a fight or regrettable incident that are the same feelings you may have had long before this relationship, that may have started in childhood or in a former relationship, [clears throat] and those in- can include things like abandonment, rejection, feeling judged, um, feeling frightened. Those kinds of old feelings you've been carrying inside you your whole life perhaps. So you talk about those triggers and what stories go with those from your past. You share one of those. So your partner really understands better the scars that you carry inside from old experiences, uh, and can try to avoid triggering those. And then the fifth step is to talk about one thing you can do differently and one thing your partner can do differently to avoid something like this from happening again. That's how you process a regrettable incident.

Ali Abdaal 28:34 How l- how long afterwards should you-- would you recommend waiting to process a regrettable incident? Are we talking, like, the same day or, like, in a, a couple days from now? Like, what, what sort of time period are we thinking?

Dr. John Gottman 28:47 Well, it can be, um, whenever, as long as it's not immediately afterwards. So some people won't know they're supposed to do this, and then they'll go back and process something 20 years later, 15 years later. The way that you know you need to process it is that it still festers in your mind when you think about it. You know, you can still feel [clears throat] the awful feelings of that event. That means you need to process it. But with that said, you have to be very calm-

Ali Abdaal 29:22 Right

Dr. John Gottman 29:22 ... when you sit down and process. And I like to tell people, imagine that you're in the upper balcony of a theater after act one of a play. That play down on stage was the two of you fighting, and you're talking to your partner about what happened during act one. That's the kind of calmness you need to have before you talk.

Ali Abdaal 29:47 Nice. Is there a, a-- [clicks tongue] To what extent is there utility in talking things out at the time? Um, like, you know, we've just had a, had a, had an argument. I'm kind of upset. She's kind of upset. The-- Do we just, like, continue for the rest of the day as if, "All right, cool, let's park this and then carry on with our day"? Do we kind of get time apart? Like, how, how do we deal with it, like, th- let's say that evening or, or that day before we are both in that state of calm to be able to discuss it maybe tomorrow or the day after?

Dr. John Gottman 30:23 Uh, okay. So can you talk about it immediately afterwards? Is that what you're asking?

Ali Abdaal 30:30 Yeah.

Speaker 30:30 It's not how people would-

Ali Abdaal 30:30 Yeah, I guess, like, what do you, w- what do you do while the emo- while, while the emotions are still, like, still they're not quite at that calm level where you can discuss it fully calmly?

Dr. John Gottman 30:40 I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it because it's so easy to slide into the old argument again. You'll slide-

Ali Abdaal 30:48 Yeah

Dr. John Gottman 30:48 ... right back into the fight. Um, and also, a lot of people will apologize almost immediately, and that doesn't work either. And the reason is because you haven't heard your partner's experience of the fight enough to know how your behavior impacted them.

Ali Abdaal 31:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 31:08 So, you don't really know what you're apologizing for until you've heard-

Ali Abdaal 31:13 Mm

Dr. John Gottman 31:13 ... the story of your partner's experience, and you've been able to share yours, too. Because usually both people, in some way, are responsible for what happened. Not always, but often.

Ali Abdaal 31:27 Ah. Nice. That's great. Um, already got a very actionable point I'm gonna take away from this conversation, so thank you. By the way, in case you haven't heard, my brand-new book, Feel-Good Productivity, is now out. It is available everywhere books are sold, and it's actually hit the New York Times and also the Sunday Times bestseller list. So, thank you to everyone who's already got a copy of the book. If you've read the book already, I would love a review on Amazon. And if you haven't yet checked it out, you may like to check it out. It's available in physical format and also e-book and also audiobook everywhere books are sold.

Ali Abdaal 31:55 What are some high ROI things that sort of could... Like, communication-wise or anything that you can do in, in a couple that would potentially help mitigate against some of the issues that people have kind of regarding communication and things like that? I dunno if, if that question makes sense, made sense.

Hannah Witton 32:11 Uh, yeah.

Ali Abdaal 32:11 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 32:11 I ha- I think I know what you're getting at.

Ali Abdaal 32:13 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 32:13 So, I think, like, understanding that, like, you're not gonna be perfect at communication, and, like, fumbling your way through bad communication- [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 32:23 Mm

Hannah Witton 32:23 ... I think is better than, like, not communicating at all. But there's, like, lots of little things that you can do to make kinda, like, saying the more difficult things easier. And I, and I've learned the hard way that if you don't bring these things up, they will just simmer, and they will become resentment and anger, and then they are just going to come out completely in an uncontrolled way.

Ali Abdaal 32:44 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 32:45 Um, and what you want is to be able to, like, say these things in a very controlled scenario so you can actually have, like, a productive conversation about these things. But, like, for instance, if being in the same room is really difficult when having that conversation, like, I don't, I don't necessarily believe in, like, the hierarchy of, like, communication. [laughs] Like, like face-to-face is best. And, like, if you, if you're really struggling to say that thing face to face, then maybe write it down or text them or, like, a phone call or something.

Ali Abdaal 33:16 Mm.

Hannah Witton 33:16 Like, as long as, like, that message is getting across. I think if you are having no face-to-face interaction in your relationship, then work on that because there is a lot that you can gather in, from those, uh, interactions. Um, but, like, things that I love doing is, like, if you're going for a walk together, you can always... I always find, like, you can have, like, quite deep conversations when you're going for a walk.

Ali Abdaal 33:44 Mm.

Hannah Witton 33:44 Because you're not looking at each other.

Ali Abdaal 33:46 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 33:46 You're like, you're, like, looking ahead. Anything that kind of, like, gives you something else to focus on as well. Sometimes, uh, if you're, like, sitting together but, like, back-to-back-

Ali Abdaal 33:56 Mm

Hannah Witton 33:56 ... and talking is really nice because you have that contact point between you, so there's that closeness and that physicality there, but you're just talking at a wall.

Ali Abdaal 34:06 Mm.

Hannah Witton 34:06 And for some people, that can be, like, a lot easier to then, like, say some of the harder things. Um, but you, you have that comfort of, like, still being able to, like, feel their presence, um, there. And then I think, like, just one of my favorite things in terms of communication relationships is, like, relationship audits and check-ins, [laughs] um, which I think was maybe what you were getting at.

Ali Abdaal 34:30 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 34:30 And I, I love these because I, I just think they're so important. Like, if it's something that you do, like, once a year, where you, you, um, make it, like, a fun thing. You make it, like, a date night.

Ali Abdaal 34:43 Mm.

Hannah Witton 34:43 Right? So, it feels, it doesn't feel threatening.

Ali Abdaal 34:46 Mm.

Hannah Witton 34:46 It doesn't feel like something that you have to be worried about in the lead-up to. It's actually something that you're, like, looking forward to.

Ali Abdaal 34:54 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 34:54 'Cause it's like, oh, we're gonna go to this fancy place for dinner, and then we're gonna do our relationship audit.

Ali Abdaal 34:59 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 34:59 Or, like, we're gonna go, um, to this gig, and then, like, go to our favorite pub and do our relationship... Do you know what I mean? Like-

Ali Abdaal 35:06 Yeah

Hannah Witton 35:06 ... like, y- it, it doesn't have to be a, like, "Right, laptops out. Let's sit at the ta- the kitchen table."

Ali Abdaal 35:13 Yeah, uh-huh.

Hannah Witton 35:13 And, like-

Ali Abdaal 35:13 That's a fab... Yeah

Hannah Witton 35:13 ... like, if you, if you make a, like, whatever works for you-

Ali Abdaal 35:17 Mm

Hannah Witton 35:17 ... in terms of, like, what puts you in a open, calm, relaxed-

Ali Abdaal 35:24 Mm

Hannah Witton 35:24 ... mood. Because you don't want to be doing your relationship audit when you're, like, on edge, right?

Ali Abdaal 35:29 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 35:29 You wanna, like, you wanna be setting yourself up for success in terms of, like, the context that you create-

Ali Abdaal 35:35 Mm

Hannah Witton 35:35 ... and the environment that you're in. Um, yeah, and, like, asking each other, like, "So, how's the last year been [laughs] for you?" Um, like, what were your highlights in terms of the relationship?

Ali Abdaal 35:48 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 35:49 What were your lowlights? Is there anything that you're interested in working on next year for us together, or for me, or for you as an individual? Like, getting all of that out there. And, like, you know, if you've had, like, a good evening, if you've had, like, a lovely time together, then that, uh, kind of interaction can, like, can be really playful.

Ali Abdaal 36:12 Mm.

Hannah Witton 36:13 And can be really, like, lovely. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 36:16 Yeah. Yeah, so that's something that me and, and my girlfriend do, um, on a sort of every, every three weeks or so.

Hannah Witton 36:21 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 36:21 Like, there's a, a bit of a relationship review. We have, like, a Notion template which is convenient, 'cause you can just look at it on the phone and be like, "All right, should we do our relationship reviews?"

Hannah Witton 36:28 Love it. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 36:29 There's, like, 12 questions that we just kind of go-

Hannah Witton 36:31 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 36:31 ... go through. And-

Hannah Witton 36:32 What kind of questions do you ask?

Ali Abdaal 36:33 Oh, I'll, uh, give you a sample. Where'd my phone go?

Hannah Witton 36:36 Let's go.

Ali Abdaal 36:37 Let's go.

Hannah Witton 36:37 Maybe I'll s-

Ali Abdaal 36:38 You can review these questions

Hannah Witton 36:39 ... maybe I'll steal some of them. No, mine and Dan's last relationship audit was, like, I don't know, maybe, like, a walk on New Year's Day, just being like How's it been for you? Yep, good? Any notes? [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 36:49 Nice end notes.

Hannah Witton 36:49 Any notes?

Ali Abdaal 36:50 That's a good one.

Hannah Witton 36:50 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 36:52 Um-

Hannah Witton 36:53 Um, no, we've not done, like, a proper serious one with actual, like, listed out questions. I think, I, I think because we're, like, just naturally talking about our relationship a lot-

Ali Abdaal 37:04 Yeah

Hannah Witton 37:04 ... 'cause we're about to become parents-

Ali Abdaal 37:05 Yeah

Hannah Witton 37:06 ... it just, like-

Ali Abdaal 37:07 It just comes up quite a lot

Hannah Witton 37:07 ... yeah, it comes up quite a lot in terms of just, like, thinking about our dynamic-

Ali Abdaal 37:11 Mm

Hannah Witton 37:11 ... and just being like, what, you know, w- I don't ... Yeah, just with-

Ali Abdaal 37:15 Yeah, let's make a note of it

Hannah Witton 37:16 ... with all of it. Like, especially because, you know, it's the last few months of it just being us two as well.

Ali Abdaal 37:20 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 37:20 So you're like, "How's it going?"

Ali Abdaal 37:23 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 37:23 And like, how do you want it to go, and like ... [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 37:25 Yeah, because I, like, I guess those sorts of conversations, like, often don't happen by default.

Hannah Witton 37:29 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 37:29 Like, it's so easy to get kinda caught up in the day-to-day-

Hannah Witton 37:32 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 37:32 ... and especially, like, in the early stages, stages of dating someone or in a relationship where maybe you aren't living together, and you're seeing each other once or twice a week, and-

Hannah Witton 37:40 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 37:40 ... you're doing something each time, and there's stuff happening.

Hannah Witton 37:42 Yeah, yeah.

Ali Abdaal 37:43 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 37:43 And then when's the time to reflect on it?

Ali Abdaal 37:44 Mm.

Hannah Witton 37:45 Yeah. Hey, when we did that last week, like, I had a really good time, and this is how this thing that you said made me feel-

Ali Abdaal 37:52 Yeah

Hannah Witton 37:52 ... and I really liked that. And I was just wondering, like, if you also had a good time.

Ali Abdaal 37:57 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 37:57 You know? [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 37:58 It's like those ... It's, it's unusual to have those sorts of conversations-

Hannah Witton 38:00 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 38:00 ... like, in the moment, and so making time for them, I think, makes sense.

Hannah Witton 38:02 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 38:03 Um, you know, one thing that we do, like, w- what went well in our relationship this week? How well-supported by me did you feel this week?

Hannah Witton 38:08 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 38:09 What's something I did that made you feel loved, appreciated, or respected this week? What could I do better or differently in the coming week, in the coming week? And so we'd answer the questions-

Hannah Witton 38:15 Yeah, yeah

Ali Abdaal 38:16 ... for each other. What are your main stresses at the moment? How can I help? What went not so well last week? Well, or last however, however-

Hannah Witton 38:23 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 38:23 ... long that period was. Um, this is a good one. Is, is there anything at all I did this week that made you feel not nice, AKA sad or bad or an- annoyed in any tiny way? How can I make it-

Hannah Witton 38:31 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 38:31 ... better for us? And I find that-

Hannah Witton 38:33 That-

Ali Abdaal 38:33 Yeah

Hannah Witton 38:33 ... that's a hard one

Ali Abdaal 38:34 ... I, I always get really good data points on this. [laughs]

Hannah Witton 38:36 [laughs] Data points.

Ali Abdaal 38:37 It's like, "Whoa, okay, cool. Noted." [laughs]

Hannah Witton 38:39 Um, and I thi- I think with a question like that, you have to be careful with how you answer it.

Ali Abdaal 38:44 Mm.

Hannah Witton 38:44 Um, I, one of the things that I always hear from, like, um, like relationship therapists and stuff-

Ali Abdaal 38:51 Yeah

Hannah Witton 38:51 ... is, like, using I sentences. So, like, say if, like, we were doing that audit, and you asked me that question. Instead of being like, "Well, you did this, and you made me ... And you-

Ali Abdaal 39:04 Mm

Hannah Witton 39:04 ... you're a bad person-

Ali Abdaal 39:06 Yeah

Hannah Witton 39:06 ... or like, "You're insensitive," da, da, da, da. Using an I sentence would be like, "I felt like this because-

Ali Abdaal 39:14 Yeah

Hannah Witton 39:14 ... of this thing that happened," or like, "This is how..." You, like, making it actually about-

Ali Abdaal 39:20 Yeah

Hannah Witton 39:20 ... like, how, um, what that experience was like for you is-

Ali Abdaal 39:25 Yeah

Hannah Witton 39:25 ... how I've heard that it's better to-

Ali Abdaal 39:28 No, definitely

Hannah Witton 39:28 ... better to do. 'Cause I think kind of b- coming with the, like, accusatory way, like, "You this, you that," the other person can get quite defensive. And actually, like, sometimes we do need to, like, own our feelings as well of like, "Oh, I felt like this, and, like, I think that's partly due to this thing that you did, but then also it might have something to do with, like, this thing that happened to me in my past."

Ali Abdaal 39:53 Mm.

Hannah Witton 39:53 Um, and maybe, like, it w- it would be really helpful for me if we talked about that more. Do you know what I mean? Like-

Ali Abdaal 40:00 Yeah

Hannah Witton 40:00 ... rather than being like, "You don't understand me." [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 40:04 Yeah. I've been, I've been reading a book recently called, uh-

Hannah Witton 40:06 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 40:06 ... Nonviolent Communication-

Hannah Witton 40:08 Ooh

Ali Abdaal 40:08 ... which is all about this kind of like here is how we express our feelings in this kinda way.

Hannah Witton 40:12 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 40:12 And it's all about kind of m- making, making it about yourself, that you-

Hannah Witton 40:15 Yeah, yeah

Ali Abdaal 40:15 ... I feel like X when this happens.

Hannah Witton 40:17 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 40:17 And then it, it, it becomes not a, it's, it's not an accusation. It's literally just this is the way I'm feeling-

Hannah Witton 40:22 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 40:22 ... and I'm just letting you know, and, you know, I'd like us to talk about this if that's all right with you kind of vibes. And then, yeah, there's no right or wrong answer. It's not like pointing the finger at someone. It's really kind of owning the feeling. Um-

Hannah Witton 40:33 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 40:33 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 40:33 Because sometimes it can feel like somebody's direct actions have, like, hurt us in a certain way, right?

Ali Abdaal 40:40 Mm.

Hannah Witton 40:40 But other times, like, I know that there's been times where, like, Dan has done something perfectly reasonable-

Ali Abdaal 40:47 Mm

Hannah Witton 40:47 ... but I'm upset by it, right?

Ali Abdaal 40:49 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 40:50 And so it's about, like, sometimes it's about still being honest about that.

Ali Abdaal 40:54 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 40:54 Like, 'cause sometimes we can be like, "Oh, my, my problems are insignificant. Like, I'm not gonna bring it up." But actually, like, just being like that, like, I felt like this, like [laughs] this is how-

Ali Abdaal 41:06 Mm

Hannah Witton 41:06 ... that made me feel, whilst also acknowledging that, like, maybe it wasn't entirely down to the other person's behavior.

Ali Abdaal 41:13 Mm.

Hannah Witton 41:13 Because there's, like, there's a lot of things at play when it comes to, like, how we react to things and how we feel about things, and some of that will be, like, l- the literal behavior that we're on the receiving end of, but other times it can just be, like, all sorts of-

Ali Abdaal 41:26 Yeah

Hannah Witton 41:26 ... baggage that we're also bringing to the, to the situation. But being able to have those conversations about, like, what you do about that because even, so s- even if someone's behavior is, like, perfectly reasonable-

Ali Abdaal 41:37 Mm

Hannah Witton 41:37 ... like, whatever you decide reasonable in your relationship is, they might go, "Okay, like, yes, this, this thing that I was doing, like, I know that that was reasonable, but I see that it's upsetting you, and so I'm happy to, like, meet you where you're at."

Ali Abdaal 41:53 Mm.

Hannah Witton 41:53 "Or maybe we meet somewhere in the middle for the time being whilst we work on this."

Ali Abdaal 41:57 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 41:57 And that doesn't necessarily have to be a permanent thing. Like, maybe that person will eventually be able to, like, go back to doing that thing, whatever it was before.

Ali Abdaal 42:04 Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Witton 42:05 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 42:05 Because I guess if you, if you, if you care about how the other person is feeling and, like, the relationship itself-

Hannah Witton 42:10 Yeah, yeah

Ali Abdaal 42:11 ... that's probably more important than, "Oh, well, in my view, it's reasonable for me to do this kind of thing."

Hannah Witton 42:15 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 42:15 It's like-

Hannah Witton 42:15 'Cause it's not about being-

Ali Abdaal 42:16 Yeah

Hannah Witton 42:16 ... like, right or wrong-

Ali Abdaal 42:17 Mm

Hannah Witton 42:17 ... in that situation of like, "Well, it was perfectly reasonable, my actions-

Ali Abdaal 42:20 Yeah

Hannah Witton 42:20 ... so I sh- take zero responsibility for how you're feeling right now."

Ali Abdaal 42:23 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 42:23 You know? N- you're their teammate. You're their partner. Like, just because what y- you know, just because what you did was reasonable or whatever-

Ali Abdaal 42:32 Yeah

Hannah Witton 42:33 ... um, doesn't mean that you can just completely s- take a step back from your partner's feelings.

Ali Abdaal 42:39 Yeah.

Hannah Witton 42:39 And that's why I like that question about, like, what's making you feel stressed right now, and how can I help?

Ali Abdaal 42:42 Mm.

Hannah Witton 42:42 Because that stress, um, wasn't caused by you, but you're still making it part of your responsibility as-

Francesca Specter 42:50 Their partner-

Ali Abdaal 42:51 Yeah

Francesca Specter 42:51 ... to help them with that.

Ali Abdaal 42:54 One of the things I used to have on my Hinge profile was the pr- the, the prompt was, um, the ideal relationship is when, dot, dot, dot. And I, I wrote something like, "When we spend 10% of our time each day together and the rest of the time kind of doing our own thing." And I had some ... That, that was a very controversial thing to say. I had some people being like, "I mean, 10% of 24 hours, 2.4 hours. I mean, sounds reasonable."

Francesca Specter 43:22 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 43:22 Possibly, possibly a bit excessive. And I had other people being like, "Oh my God, what a fucking so- sociopath, psychopath. I, how, how, how dare he suggest you wanna be in a relationship where you're only spending 10% of your time, like, together?" In my mind I'm thinking, like, two and a half hours a day is a long time to spend-

Francesca Specter 43:34 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 43:34 ... like, with someone, quality time. Like, surely you wanna, like, kinda do your own thing and read your own book and not feel the need to have all this time k- together, together. Um, what's your take on the kind of in a, in the context of a relationship, there's balance between hanging out versus not hanging out?

Francesca Specter 43:51 I think, yeah, you know what, when you actually pan that down to 10% is 2.4 hours, that makes sense. I mean, [laughs] I think it's, it's really funny 'cause you see 10%, you think, oh, that's nothing. But I, I think the, the crux is quality time, right? I like, I love the idea of my, my romantic fantasy is, like, reading a book on the opposite end of a sofa to someone else also reading their own book, you know?

Ali Abdaal 44:13 Oh, yeah.

Francesca Specter 44:13 Like, that's great.

Ali Abdaal 44:14 [laughs]

Francesca Specter 44:14 As someone who's read b- you know, it's, spent a lot of time-

Ali Abdaal 44:17 It's the dream, yeah.

Francesca Specter 44:17 Yeah. I, but, like, the idea of alone togetherness, that comfort, that, you know, coming back to that Donald Winnicott child psychologist thing of, like, being comfortable in the presence of another without needing to interact. Um, I, I think that, you know, that's maybe the gray area. That's maybe the, you know, maybe that's the 20% that we're not, of, of the waking hours that aren't being accounted for in that 10%.

Ali Abdaal 44:37 Yeah.

Francesca Specter 44:38 There, there, there is a gray area there. But quality time I think is, is so important because I think, uh, and people have different approaches with dating, but for some, and I think this can be driven by insecurity quite a lot. There's the sense that you should be checking in every hour or so, hour or two on WhatsApp. That's my personal hell. I, you know, WhatsApp, so much stuff gets misconstrued. Me and my best friend in the world, we, you know, we ... Yes, we'll WhatsApp, and when, honestly, we sometimes get, you know, o- occasionally one of us will send each other a WhatsApp late at night and we'll get into this, like, frenetic, great, energetic conversation. But we don't, I, you know, I, I, we do not message each other asking, "How was your day?"

Ali Abdaal 45:19 Yeah.

Francesca Specter 45:19 Because we know that our bond is so great, that our energy together, our quality time is so much better than this weird green app that's pinging and, you know, in, in between our Hinge notifications and our, like, you know, Instagram or whatever. Like, we know that it's more than that, so we don't wanna reduce it. So I think, you know, I think that maybe it's an easier sell. And it's, it's hard because, you know, Hinge, like Twitter, gives, well, in those prompts, um, text boxes, it gives you, like, a, it's small amounts of characters and also no one wants to n- a nuanced essay on their Hinge profile anyway, but-

Ali Abdaal 45:50 [laughs]

Francesca Specter 45:51 ... you know, there, there is so much more to it.

Ali Abdaal 45:53 Yeah.

Francesca Specter 45:53 There is so much more to it. Um, and I think, you know, in the same way that we, we can make alone time quality time, I think it's made me so much more passionate about my friendships and my time with others being really, really good. Like I'm ... I think, again, when it's not just like, you know, you're not just sort of like lazily reaching for someone to kind of just, you know, be with you to quell your existential fear of dying, then it's really nice to, you know, know that you're gonna actually value that, that time.

Ali Abdaal 46:22 Mm-hmm.

Francesca Specter 46:22 So yeah, I don't know. I think it's, it ... I can, I can totally see why it was a hard sell, but I think that in a relationship, yeah, it's just, it's, it's, it's ag- it's just communicating that value.

Ali Abdaal 46:32 Yeah.

Francesca Specter 46:32 Isn't it?

Ali Abdaal 46:33 Yeah. Well, well one thing that my, my girlfriend and I kind of distinguish between is together together time and together alone time.

Francesca Specter 46:39 Oh, so you have that?

Ali Abdaal 46:40 Yeah. So like together alone is where we're chilling in the same, on, on the dining table doing our own work or-

Francesca Specter 46:45 Right

Ali Abdaal 46:46 ... reading our own books or, like, doing our own thing. And together together time is when we're actually together, together doing a thing or like spending quality time with one another. And I like, I like really like it when it's skewed more in the together alone camp.

Francesca Specter 46:59 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 46:59 Of like we're in the same room, we're enjoying each, each other's company, but we're doing our own thing, and then the time that we do spend together is like intentionally there and we're intentionally present.

Francesca Specter 47:08 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 47:09 Um.

Francesca Specter 47:10 Yeah. Um, I mean, honestly, I, you know, I've been in kind of a handful of shorter relationships in the time, you know, post, post-alonement era the past three years. But getting it right in a relationship I think is absolutely magic because I think quite often people think about this concept in terms of being single, and look, some people want to be single for life and that's a completely, uh, brilliant, you know, in some ways delicious life experience. I, m- most people don't, so the gold standard I suppose is getting that value into a relationship. So, you know, well done to begin with. How, how do you, and how, but how do you keep that balance going? So that can be a difficult one, right? If you ... I know, I know that you're-

Ali Abdaal 47:50 Yeah

Francesca Specter 47:50 ... probably not as cutthroat as the 10% these days, but ...

Ali Abdaal 47:53 Yeah. I mean, so we don't live together, so that makes it fair- fairly straightforward. Um, often if we are on holiday, we will kind of plan out, like, okay, today we're gonna have, like, the morning after breakfast we're gonna do co-working until 3:00 PM, which basically means [laughs] sitting on our respective laptops doing our own thing, and then we'll go on this, like, s- thing where we'll go out for dinner, we'll go on this cruise, we'll like whatever. Um, and so having those, like, co-working blocks is like, is basically that together alone time. Um, once we start living together at some point, maybe post-marriage, uh, then I'm sure it'll become a trickier balance where you are in each other's company all the time-

Francesca Specter 48:30 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 48:30 ... I guess. Yeah.

Francesca Specter 48:31 Yeah. I think that that is ... I, yeah, it's because it's been so long that I don't, I can't quite imagine what that, like, incidental time with a partner would be. Um, I don't know, but I guess it's, it's just going in with the values, and I think that that is, it's, it's al- it's, it's almost why it's important to have these, like, these harder conversations early on, I suppose, because then you're going, then you at least, you know, it, it, it almost happens more naturally because you're like, "Okay, well, okay. It's, it's go ... " Like we, alone time is a value, therefore it will come-

Ali Abdaal 49:05 Yeah

Francesca Specter 49:05 ... at some point during today or ...

Ali Abdaal 49:07 All right. So that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode. So thanks for watching. Uh, do hit the subscribe button if you aren't already, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.