The Sure-Fire Way To Be Luckier In Life - Advice From Psychology Professor Richard Wiseman

1. 0:00 – 1:57

   Intro

   1. RWRichard Wiseman0:00

      I'm not very interested in things that can't change-

   2. AAAli Abdaal0:03

      Mm

   3. RWRichard Wiseman0:03

      ... or don't change. So I think all of us can make the most of our potential, and that's the bit, as a social psychologist, that fascinates me. The challenge is how do you do it? How do you do it? And when I looked at these self-help books, I realized that-

   4. AAAli Abdaal0:19

      Hey, friends, and welcome back to Deep Dive. If you're new here, my name is Ali, and this is the weekly podcast where every week I sit down with entrepreneurs, creators, authors, and other inspiring people, and we talk about how they got to where they are and the lessons and strategies that we can learn from them that will help us hopefully live our best lives. What you're about to hear is a conversation between me and Professor Richard Wiseman. Richard is a professor of psychology who's written a bunch of books about the interesting, quirky aspects of positive psychology, and he's published over 100 peer-reviewed academic papers in the field of psychology in interesting topics like paranormal stuff, illusions, magic. And interestingly, he's written a whole book about the concept of luck and how we as individuals can become luckier. He also happens to be a member of the Inner Magic Circle, which is one of my items on my bucket list that I'm working on the audition for, and he also happens to have a YouTube channel with over 2.4 million subscribers, just to add to his long list of accolades. This is a pretty eclectic conversation that spans a wide gamut of areas, from things like luck and paranormal and like psychology and magic, and like all a bunch of really cool stuff. Uh, I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. So you have had a very, very kind of quirky career, shall we say.

   5. RWRichard Wiseman1:22

      Oh.

   6. AAAli Abdaal1:23

      Um, you are the professor in public understanding of psychology at the University of Hertfordshire.

   7. RWRichard Wiseman1:28

      Correct.

   8. AAAli Abdaal1:28

      You've written 12 books-

   9. RWRichard Wiseman1:29

      Uh, I think so

   10. AAAli Abdaal1:30

       ... over the last... p- published apparently over 100 academic papers in-

   11. RWRichard Wiseman1:33

       Yes

   12. AAAli Abdaal1:33

       ... psychology of magic, illusion, deception, luck, self-im- and self-development.

   13. RWRichard Wiseman1:36

       Yeah.

   14. AAAli Abdaal1:37

       Um, which is... And I think that's what a kind of, uh... In, in, in the early days when I discovered 59 Seconds and your work, I was like, "Oh, this guy's really cool. He's like, he's like an academic and he's into magic and he's into personal development," and I was into all of those things as well.

   15. RWRichard Wiseman1:50

       Okay.

   16. AAAli Abdaal1:50

       So I kind of sort of looked at you as being like, oh, this is, this is like a really interesting career that I maybe want, want at some point. Um,

2. 1:57 – 8:05

   Getting into psychology

   1. AAAli Abdaal1:57

      I guess, you know, one of, one of the questions that we, we often ask here on, here on the podcast is like how, how did all this happen? And I guess for you there's like a lot of kind of background.

   2. RWRichard Wiseman2:08

      Yeah.

   3. AAAli Abdaal2:08

      But I'm, I'm, I'm curious, like-

   4. RWRichard Wiseman2:10

      How did it all happen? Um-

   5. AAAli Abdaal2:11

      If you think about the beginning, like w- what were you doing at school, university, that kind of-

   6. RWRichard Wiseman2:14

      Ma- magic, magic is, is really what, what kicked it off.

   7. AAAli Abdaal2:16

      Mm.

   8. RWRichard Wiseman2:16

      So, um, I used to go and see my grandfather at the weekends, and one weekend he showed me a magic trick. And in fact, every weekend we went, he showed me the same trick. It's a really, really great trick where you initial a coin, he made it disappear, and it appeared in a box that was sealed with elastic bands. And he said this really... And I, I, like everyone who watched magic tricks, I always wanted to know how that was done. And he was super wise, actually, because he said, "I'm not gonna tell you the answer. What I will tell you is where the answer is, where the solution is."

   9. AAAli Abdaal2:46

      Mm.

   10. RWRichard Wiseman2:46

       "It's in the local library." And that made me go and read these books in the library. And at the time I was... I'm not a great reader. I was, I was struggling with reading. I was in sort of, uh, special sort of classes for reading and so on, but now I was really motivated. So I read all these books on magic, got completely hooked on it. I thought it was a wonderful thing, and so became fascinated with that. Thought that I would become a professional magician. Started doing kids shows and, um, street magic, not very far from here actually, in Covent Garden.

   11. AAAli Abdaal3:12

       Oh, you were doing the Covent Garden shows?

   12. RWRichard Wiseman3:13

       Yeah.

   13. AAAli Abdaal3:13

       Nice.

   14. RWRichard Wiseman3:14

       So Covent Garden, uh, for a little while. Not very long.

   15. AAAli Abdaal3:17

       Yeah.

   16. RWRichard Wiseman3:17

       And then I sort of realized that wasn't for me. It's, it is a very challenging way of earning a living.

   17. AAAli Abdaal3:26

       Mm.

   18. RWRichard Wiseman3:26

       And I'd gone to America, done some magic there, and, and it just, it just felt like I didn't really want to be pursuing that as a, as a career.

   19. AAAli Abdaal3:33

       So how, how old were you around this time?

   20. RWRichard Wiseman3:34

       I'd have been 17, 18.

   21. AAAli Abdaal3:36

       Okay.

   22. RWRichard Wiseman3:36

       Something like that.

   23. AAAli Abdaal3:37

       Okay. Right.

   24. RWRichard Wiseman3:38

       And had all these wonderful experiences. So a friend and I, uh, actually a very famous, um, neuroscientist, went to America. I started performing magic over there. We went to Times Square, New York, which was pretty rough then, and there's all these people doing the three card trick.

   25. AAAli Abdaal3:53

       Mm.

   26. RWRichard Wiseman3:54

       And I said to my friend, "I'll, I'll count all the number of people involved in the gang," 'cause it isn't just the person throwing the cards.

   27. AAAli Abdaal3:59

       Yeah.

   28. RWRichard Wiseman3:59

       There's loads of people involved, with spotters and-

   29. AAAli Abdaal4:01

       Yeah

   30. RWRichard Wiseman4:01

       ... enforcers and so on. So I counted them, and I think we got to 12 people, and then I realized there were 13 people because while I was counting the 12, the 13th had stolen my bag-
3. 8:05 – 13:10

   The psychology of luck

   1. AAAli Abdaal8:05

      on this idea of kind of luck as a, as a broad...?

   2. RWRichard Wiseman8:08

      Well, yeah, so the, the luck stuff. I, I was at Heart's. Had been at Heart's for 10 years. I was interviewing people for somebody else's project, actually. I'd stepped in. It w- it wasn't my project. Interviewing people about moments, key moments in their lives, and this guy came in and just described himself as really lucky. He said, "Oh, I get these chance occurrences. They always work out for me and bump into people." And increasingly convinced that we are presented with opportunities all the time, and it's whether we make the most of them. I think it's really easy to think, "This is my career path," you know. "I'm, I'm gonna be a medic"

   3. AAAli Abdaal8:41

      Mm

   4. RWRichard Wiseman8:41

      ... or, "I'm gonna be a magician," or whatever it is. And it... Once you lock into that, the problem is you then miss opportunities or other ways of thinking and doing, and that happened at that moment. You know, I'd, I was interviewing this guy and I thought, "Luck is a really interesting topic, actually, and psychologists have pretty much ignored it." So I started to do some work on psychology of luck, and, and we ran some newspaper articles saying, you know, "If you think you're lucky or unlucky-

   5. AAAli Abdaal9:07

      Yeah

   6. RWRichard Wiseman9:07

      ... contact Richard Wiseman." And then there was about 1,000 people get in contact, and it, and it grew. The media liked it as a topic, and then that became the basis for the, the very first book. And I never intended to be an author at all. As I say, I s- I struggled to read even, so it just wasn't something that I intended to do. It just kinda came along.

   7. AAAli Abdaal9:26

      So you were... I, uh, I guess, were you trying to publish academic papers in psychology journals-

   8. RWRichard Wiseman9:31

      Yeah

   9. AAAli Abdaal9:31

      ... exploring the idea of luck?

   10. RWRichard Wiseman9:32

       I was... Yeah, absolutely. I was doing that, and I published quite a lot of papers.

   11. AAAli Abdaal9:35

       Mm.

   12. RWRichard Wiseman9:35

       And then through a guy called Simon Singh, who's amazing sort of mathematician and public communicator, uh, he introduced me to his agent, Patrick Walsh, who's an incredible agent, and Patrick said, "What are you working on?" And I actually, at the time, was working mainly on the paranormal.

   13. AAAli Abdaal9:50

       Mm.

   14. RWRichard Wiseman9:51

       So we put together this book proposal about the paranormal. No publisher wanted to, to, to really put it out. And it was a chance conversation with Patrick. He said, "What else are you doing?" I said, "I'm doing stuff on luck." And he said, "Well, you try to make people luckier?" I said, "Well, yeah, we do that with interventions and so on."

   15. AAAli Abdaal10:07

       Mm.

   16. RWRichard Wiseman10:07

       And that was the, the, the basis again of the, the very first book.

   17. AAAli Abdaal10:10

       Nice. Okay, so many questions about the paranormal stuff as well. Before we go down that, so I'll, I'll just put a bookmark on there. You've, uh... In, is it The Luck Factor? The Lucky Fact-

   18. RWRichard Wiseman10:18

       Yeah.

   19. AAAli Abdaal10:18

       The Luck Factor, yeah.

   20. RWRichard Wiseman10:18

       The Luck Factor, yeah.

   21. AAAli Abdaal10:19

       So you've got, like, four principles-

   22. RWRichard Wiseman10:21

       Mm

   23. AAAli Abdaal10:21

       ... um, that people use to become luckier. I wonder if you can kind of elabor- elaborate on those, 'cause I'm sure our listeners would be very...

   24. RWRichard Wiseman10:27

       So these are the principles, the different ways in which people lucky, uh, which lucky people think and behave. So we have they're open to opportunities, and when those opportunities come along, they make the most of them, and you saw that all the time. They, they're very flexible. So they've got an endpoint. They knew they wanted to, I don't know, be successful or, you know, financially, uh, well off or whatever it was, but the way they were gonna get there, they didn't really know. They, they were looking at the way the wind was blowing and then setting sail to make the most of that. Very flexible, um, folks. Second, they tend to trust their intuition, and so when they get that gut feeling, they really do treat it as an alarm bell and take it quite seriously. Third, they're optimists, and so that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. They, they kind of continue in the face of failure and, and so on. And fourth, and I think it's probably the most important principle, uh, they're extremely resilient, so when bad things happen, they could bounce back.

   25. AAAli Abdaal11:19

       Yeah.

   26. RWRichard Wiseman11:19

       And so, you know, I remember, I interviewed hundreds of lucky and unlucky people. One of them w- was this guy that was in the lucky group, and he came in for two interviews. Between the in- two interviews, he'd fallen down the stairs and broken his leg. So the second interview, he comes in with his leg in a cast.

   27. AAAli Abdaal11:35

       Yeah.

   28. RWRichard Wiseman11:36

       And I say, "I bet you don't consider yourself quite so lucky now." And he says this wonderful answer, which still sticks with me. He said, "You're kidding." He said, "You never know the impact of something like this." He said, "Sure, it's annoying at the moment" but he said, "Last time I went into hospital, I fell in love with a nurse there. We're happily married 25 years later. It was the best thing that ever happened to me." He said, "Don't label it bad luck. You never know what's gonna come from this."

   29. AAAli Abdaal12:02

       Yeah.

   30. RWRichard Wiseman12:02

       So it's incredibly resilient-
4. 13:10 – 19:29

   How can you test something like luck?

   1. AAAli Abdaal13:10

      meta on this, like what does it look like to test an intervention on something like luck?

   2. RWRichard Wiseman13:15

      Yes, yes.

   3. AAAli Abdaal13:15

      Like if you're doing... If you're running the experiments.

   4. RWRichard Wiseman13:17

      Yes. So I, so I like experiments that, that pose exactly those problems-

   5. AAAli Abdaal13:20

      Yeah

   6. RWRichard Wiseman13:20

      ... which is how do you do that? Um, in our studies, we would take groups of people that didn't consider themselves lucky or unlucky.

   7. AAAli Abdaal13:28

      Okay.

   8. RWRichard Wiseman13:28

      We'd ask them to do something.

   9. AAAli Abdaal13:30

      Yeah.

   10. RWRichard Wiseman13:30

       And then you monitor that group.

   11. AAAli Abdaal13:32

       Yeah.

   12. RWRichard Wiseman13:32

       Your problem is you haven't got a control group.

   13. AAAli Abdaal13:35

       Okay.

   14. RWRichard Wiseman13:36

       So then, you know, it's compared to what, basically. So you can then have another group of people that aren't doing, doing anything.

   15. AAAli Abdaal13:42

       Mm.

   16. RWRichard Wiseman13:42

       Problem, which is good, better at least. The problem there is we- you don't know that maybe it's the doing of anything that, that, that, that kind of helps. So we often have a third group, which is that we say, "Here's a lucky mascot or a lucky charm."

   17. AAAli Abdaal13:55

       Yeah.

   18. RWRichard Wiseman13:56

       "Carry that around."

   19. AAAli Abdaal13:56

       So like placebo almost. [laughs]

   20. RWRichard Wiseman13:58

       Exactly. Exactly. And that's the sort of way you start to, to, to-

   21. AAAli Abdaal14:01

       Okay

   22. RWRichard Wiseman14:01

       ... those interventions.

   23. AAAli Abdaal14:02

       And so what, what kind of interventions are... Yeah.

   24. RWRichard Wiseman14:05

       We, we did super simple things, uh, in part because the complicated things didn't work.

   25. AAAli Abdaal14:10

       Mm.

   26. RWRichard Wiseman14:10

       So for example, uh, we'd ask people to keep a luck diary, and now this was at the time when positive psychology, which that now sort of falls under, w- was, was around-

   27. AAAli Abdaal14:19

       Mm

   28. RWRichard Wiseman14:19

       ... but it wasn't huge. We were, we were doing some work into this. So the luck diary, the end of each day, you write down a sense of gratitude you have for your friends or health or career-

   29. AAAli Abdaal14:29

       Yeah

   30. RWRichard Wiseman14:29

       ... or whatever, what's called gratitude intervention, or the best thing that's happened in the last 24 hours, or something negative that used to happen that no longer happens.
5. 19:29 – 20:50

   How lucky journals change your self perception

   1. AAAli Abdaal19:29

      back to the show. Lucky journals.

   2. RWRichard Wiseman19:31

      Mm.

   3. AAAli Abdaal19:31

      So these things work

   4. RWRichard Wiseman19:32

      Yeah. They, they, they work

   5. AAAli Abdaal19:33

      How do... Yeah

   6. RWRichard Wiseman19:33

      They, they change people's self-perception. And one of the things that that does is then change how their friends and colleagues, um, uh, behave towards them

   7. AAAli Abdaal19:42

      Okay

   8. RWRichard Wiseman19:43

      So the, we forget that we give off a certain, you know, self-identity

   9. AAAli Abdaal19:47

      Vibe, yeah

   10. RWRichard Wiseman19:48

       ... vibe

   11. AAAli Abdaal19:48

       Yeah

   12. RWRichard Wiseman19:48

       And that other people reinforce that

   13. AAAli Abdaal19:49

       Okay

   14. RWRichard Wiseman19:50

       And so we come to convince ourselves that's who we are

   15. AAAli Abdaal19:52

       Yeah

   16. RWRichard Wiseman19:53

       And, and once you start to change that and other people see you as more successful or lucky, they'll give you more opportunities, or they'll talk to you more or whatever

   17. AAAli Abdaal20:00

       Mm

   18. RWRichard Wiseman20:01

       It's the, in the same way that our emotion's contagious. You know?

   19. AAAli Abdaal20:04

       Yeah

   20. RWRichard Wiseman20:04

       The, the, it- we all like enjoy being around happy people-

   21. AAAli Abdaal20:06

       Yeah

   22. RWRichard Wiseman20:06

       ... because it makes us feel happy. And, and so the lucky people tended to be happier. They had a bigger social network, which meant they got more opportunities, but also when things went wrong, there were people there to help them

   23. AAAli Abdaal20:17

       Yeah

   24. RWRichard Wiseman20:17

       The unlucky people tended to be social isolates

   25. AAAli Abdaal20:20

       What direction do you think the causality goes here?

   26. RWRichard Wiseman20:22

       Both ways

   27. AAAli Abdaal20:23

       Okay

   28. RWRichard Wiseman20:23

       Both ways

   29. AAAli Abdaal20:24

       So people who've had bad stuff happen to them tend to consider themselves to be unlucky-

   30. RWRichard Wiseman20:27

       Yeah
6. 20:50 – 22:00

   The problem with reduce self-help to a cliché

   1. AAAli Abdaal20:50

      Yeah. So, like, one of the things I l- I, I like and don't like about kinda self-help as a thing is that you can always reduce it down to a cliché

   2. RWRichard Wiseman20:58

      Yeah

   3. AAAli Abdaal20:58

      You know? Like al- always look on the bright side of life

   4. RWRichard Wiseman21:01

      Yeah

   5. AAAli Abdaal21:01

      It's like, I mean, that, that's a cliché for a reason. It's like generally good advice. But as, if someone hears it, the advice in that simplified format, it's very easy to dismiss as, ah, you know, this is, this is BS

   6. RWRichard Wiseman21:11

      Y- well, so that piece, so always look on the bright side of life. The, the question, what does that actually mean? You know-

   7. AAAli Abdaal21:17

      Mm

   8. RWRichard Wiseman21:17

      ... how do you do that? How do you do it? So with some of our work, we looked at counterfactual thinking

   9. AAAli Abdaal21:23

      Yeah

   10. RWRichard Wiseman21:24

       So when something bad that you perceive as bad has happened to you, generating it could have been worse-

   11. AAAli Abdaal21:30

       Mm

   12. RWRichard Wiseman21:30

       ... counterfactuals-

   13. AAAli Abdaal21:31

       Yeah

   14. RWRichard Wiseman21:32

       ... um, actually is a fairly effective way of, of being a bit more resilient. Or looking for the, the, the silver lining. You know, what, what good things have come out of this, even if they're quite minimal. And that's what I find more interesting. What are the tactics? Because often those clichés are very broad brush

   15. AAAli Abdaal21:47

       Yeah, very sort of abstract

   16. RWRichard Wiseman21:49

       Yeah

   17. AAAli Abdaal21:49

       Yeah

   18. RWRichard Wiseman21:49

       And you go, "Yeah, fine. So, so what do I do tomorrow or right now? What are the tactics?"

   19. AAAli Abdaal21:54

       Yeah

   20. RWRichard Wiseman21:54

       And I'm, I'm sure it's in, the action is always in the tactics rather than the strategy

   21. AAAli Abdaal21:58

       That's interesting. So the book I'm writing

7. 22:00 – 28:08

   Ali’s book writing struggle

   1. AAAli Abdaal22:00

      at the moment is, well, in the, or rather struggling to write, the-

   2. RWRichard Wiseman22:03

      [laughs] Why are you struggling? Why are you struggling?

   3. AAAli Abdaal22:05

      Oh, okay, interesting. So we'll get into that tangent and then, and then I'll-

   4. RWRichard Wiseman22:07

      Okay

   5. AAAli Abdaal22:07

      ... come back to the thing, tactics, yeah. I actually had a, a call with my, with one of our external editors yesterday, and it turned into more of a therapy session.

   6. RWRichard Wiseman22:14

      [laughs]

   7. AAAli Abdaal22:14

      I feel like any time I speak to my agent or the editor-

   8. RWRichard Wiseman22:16

      [laughs]

   9. AAAli Abdaal22:17

      ... it becomes therapy session. Basically, I, I, I think it's tied up in, in, in my mind, the, the bar is too high

   10. RWRichard Wiseman22:25

       Oh

   11. AAAli Abdaal22:25

       So if I'm writing an email newsletter, I've been doing this every week for four years-

   12. RWRichard Wiseman22:28

       Mm

   13. AAAli Abdaal22:28

       ... it's chill. I'll write down whatever the hell f- I feel like. Oh, I discovered this cool new tip in-

   14. RWRichard Wiseman22:31

       Yeah, yeah

   15. AAAli Abdaal22:31

       ... Richard's book. Green plant, blah, blah, blah, bang. It sends out, goes out to people. People reply being like, "This was a really good tip. Thank you." If I'm making a YouTube video, in the early days of my channel, I'd hit record on the camera, have a rough like, "Oh, I wanna say these four things about, like, the four different types of luck. Let me just talk about it." But then when it comes to the book, it's like, it feels like a big deal. It's like a book.

   16. RWRichard Wiseman22:52

       Mm.

   17. AAAli Abdaal22:52

       And it's like when I sit down to write, I'm like, "Oh, shit, I'm, I'm like Mark Twain and doing, writing my magnum opus-

   18. RWRichard Wiseman22:56

       [laughs]

   19. AAAli Abdaal22:56

       ... or like, whatever. And it's all, it's all, it's all just, like, a really kind of, uh, pressurized way to think of writing. And what Rachel, our editor, was saying was that, like, you just gotta, you just gotta lower, lower the stakes. It's all good. It's your shitty first draft. Like, no one cares. Does that resonate at all? [laughs]

   20. RWRichard Wiseman23:12

       Yeah, in, in quite a few ways. Are you comfortable saying what your book is about? Or is it all super secret?

   21. AAAli Abdaal23:16

       Oh, absolutely. No, no, it's all good. Uh, it's b- a sort of a, a practical guide to sustainable productivity

   22. RWRichard Wiseman23:20

       Oh, okay. All right. I love the fact that you're struggling to write a book on productivity. [laughs]

   23. AAAli Abdaal23:24

       I know. It's the... Yeah. There's lots, lots of meta examples in there

   24. RWRichard Wiseman23:27

       [laughs] So, so all I can tell you is-

   25. AAAli Abdaal23:29

       Yeah

   26. RWRichard Wiseman23:29

       ... is what I've done for, for 12 books, which is that, and th- probably why I won't do anymore because it's, it, I find it a quite difficult thing to do. I, I've got my idea. I've got my outline, a chapter by chapter outline

   27. AAAli Abdaal23:42

       Yeah

   28. RWRichard Wiseman23:42

       I've got content that's gonna go in there

   29. AAAli Abdaal23:44

       Yeah

   30. RWRichard Wiseman23:44

       And I give myself two months-
8. 28:08 – 30:20

   Why we shouldn’t care about goals

   1. AAAli Abdaal28:08

      So what, what are the... You know, as, as, as you know, one of the classic things in the self-help literature is this idea of setting a destination-

   2. RWRichard Wiseman28:15

      Mm

   3. AAAli Abdaal28:15

      ... setting a goal, manifesting, knowing what you want out of life, and then doing the things to get there.

   4. RWRichard Wiseman28:20

      Yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal28:20

      How does that vibe with your experience-

   6. RWRichard Wiseman28:21

      [laughs]

   7. AAAli Abdaal28:21

      ... and your research?

   8. RWRichard Wiseman28:22

      Oh, it doesn't. I mean, the, the... For me, the goal is, is it interesting? You know, am I, am I engaged with this? And, and if I am, then life is good. And there's been times when I've been paid, you know, some money to do something I'm not particularly... In a project I'm not particularly interested in, and boy, that's, that's hard. That's work.

   9. AAAli Abdaal28:43

      Mm.

   10. RWRichard Wiseman28:44

       Everything else is, is just playing really. So I, I don't have this notion of, um, "Oh, I need to be sort of financially successful," or, or, or whatever, or fame. And I never wanted to be a writer.

   11. AAAli Abdaal28:56

       Yeah.

   12. RWRichard Wiseman28:56

       That was a... Wouldn't have, have been on my horizon at all. You know, I enjoy giving talks. I en- enjoy the live stuff. Uh, one day maybe I'll wake up and I won't enjoy it, in which case I'll stop doing it. But no, just, you know, I just think, have an interesting life, you know. Uh, it's, it's... And, and do good things. You know, if it don't harm people, as long as you're doing stuff which you think makes the world a better place-

   13. AAAli Abdaal29:18

       Yeah

   14. RWRichard Wiseman29:19

       ... then that'll probably, you know, fuel you.

   15. AAAli Abdaal29:21

       I like that. This idea of I will... I'll, I'll continue to do it for as long as it's interesting-

   16. RWRichard Wiseman29:26

       Yeah

   17. AAAli Abdaal29:26

       ... kind of thing.

   18. RWRichard Wiseman29:27

       I think it's the, the same with me with anything is, is that the moment I cease to find it interesting-

   19. AAAli Abdaal29:32

       Yep

   20. RWRichard Wiseman29:32

       ... it's li- it's like the paranormal or, or, or the magic trick. If I showed you a magic trick and you didn't know how it's done, God, it's like a s- a stone in your shoe-

   21. AAAli Abdaal29:41

       Mm

   22. RWRichard Wiseman29:41

       ... as, as a magician once said. You really want to know, and, and, and you'll spend time trying to figure it out, and annoy you if you can't, and ask questions-

   23. AAAli Abdaal29:49

       Yeah

   24. RWRichard Wiseman29:50

       ... and so on. The moment you find out the solution, boom, it's gone.

   25. AAAli Abdaal29:52

       Yeah.

   26. RWRichard Wiseman29:53

       No interest to anyone at all. It's why magicians hold their secrets.

   27. AAAli Abdaal29:56

       Mm.

   28. RWRichard Wiseman29:57

       Because without that, magic tricks aren't particularly interesting. Same as the paranormal. Ghosts, you know, if I say, "I think this place is haunted," that's kind of interesting and mysterious. The moment we find out it's dodgy air conditioning or whatever it is-

   29. AAAli Abdaal30:08

       Yeah

   30. RWRichard Wiseman30:08

       ... boom, it's gone.
9. 30:20 – 44:03

   The balance between passion and making money

   1. AAAli Abdaal30:20

      was saying to you that, you know, Richard, you've had a, a very successful, illustrious career-

   2. RWRichard Wiseman30:23

      [laughs]

   3. AAAli Abdaal30:24

      ... looking at your, your accolades. You're one of the one- 100 people in Britain that makes Britain a good place to live.

   4. RWRichard Wiseman30:29

      Allegedly.

   5. AAAli Abdaal30:29

      Uh, allegedly.

   6. RWRichard Wiseman30:30

      Yes.

   7. AAAli Abdaal30:30

      Yeah. [laughs]

   8. RWRichard Wiseman30:30

      I don't know who the other 99 are, but boy, they're terrible.

   9. AAAli Abdaal30:33

      What would you say is this balance between do what you find interesting, do what you like kind of vibes versus, but I need to make money to make ends meet?

   10. RWRichard Wiseman30:40

       Well, that's the thing. I, I think know your passion. And so the little test I always have is you're on a desert island. Uh, you're allowed four or five books, but they're only about one topic. What's the topic?

   11. AAAli Abdaal30:50

       Mm.

   12. RWRichard Wiseman30:51

       And people go, "Oh, it's this." Well, that's your passion probably.

   13. AAAli Abdaal30:53

       Mm.

   14. RWRichard Wiseman30:54

       Now find a way of making enough money to, to get by with that topic, and you probably got the recipe for happiness.

   15. AAAli Abdaal31:03

       Enough money?

   16. RWRichard Wiseman31:04

       Enough money to get by.

   17. AAAli Abdaal31:05

       Okay.

   18. RWRichard Wiseman31:06

       And, and because, I mean, I, I know quite a few very wealthy people-

   19. AAAli Abdaal31:09

       Yeah

   20. RWRichard Wiseman31:09

       ... and often they're not the happiest people in the world. One- once you get to the top of something, you've gotta keep yourself there. There's a lot of pressure on and, and so on. So yeah, you know, you wanna be comfortable, but I, I, I, I think it's a, it's a false god to, to kinda go, oh, I wanna be a multimillionaire or, or whatever.

   21. AAAli Abdaal31:25

       Yeah.

   22. RWRichard Wiseman31:25

       For me, it's far more interesting to have a good life in that, in that sense.

   23. AAAli Abdaal31:29

       How, how do you define a good life?

   24. RWRichard Wiseman31:31

       An interesting life, one where you get up in the... out of bed in the morning and, and you think, "Yeah, I'm actually interested in what I'm doing-

   25. AAAli Abdaal31:37

       Yeah

   26. RWRichard Wiseman31:37

       ... today." Or you've got people around you that have... share your viewpoint, and you can work with them, and that you're doing some good in the world. You know, when I wrote Luck Factor, and I still get emails from people that say, "It, it changed everything for me." I still get emails from clinicians who say when people are on the slippery slope to depression, before they become depressed, um, they'll think themselves unlucky.

   27. AAAli Abdaal32:00

       Yeah.

   28. RWRichard Wiseman32:00

       And that book catches them early-

   29. AAAli Abdaal32:02

       Mm

   30. RWRichard Wiseman32:02

       ... when it's much easier to change their, their way of thinking. That's good. That's good. That's not, that's the-
10. 44:03 – 49:04

    The As If principle

    1. AAAli Abdaal44:03

       where with an affirmation it's like you haven't done the thing, but you're telling yourself you've done the thing, or you're going to do the thing.

    2. RWRichard Wiseman44:08

       Mm.

    3. AAAli Abdaal44:08

       Whereas luck journal is like- In, in what ways will that kind today?

    4. RWRichard Wiseman44:11

       It's, it's really concrete.

    5. AAAli Abdaal44:12

       Yeah

    6. RWRichard Wiseman44:12

       It's evidence-based.

    7. AAAli Abdaal44:13

       Yeah.

    8. RWRichard Wiseman44:13

       The Carnegie, I mean, I love Dale Carnegie who wrote How to Win Friends and Influence People, How to Stop Worrying and Start Living. Two of the greatest self-help books-

    9. AAAli Abdaal44:20

       Yeah

    10. RWRichard Wiseman44:20

        ... ever. Slightly dated now, but, but still amazing. So he's got this great journaling method, which was kind of the opposite, which was... The journal was called Daft or Silly Things I've Done Today, and he'd write down one of the things he really regretted.

    11. AAAli Abdaal44:34

        Hmm.

    12. RWRichard Wiseman44:35

        And so he, "Ah, I wish I hadn't sort of snapped at that person," or, "I wish I hadn't made this decision," and then what you're gonna do in the future to prevent that happening. So he did it as a, sort of learning thing where, where he'd, instead of running away from a mistake, he really would embrace it as a learning opportunity, and I thought that was nice as, as, as well. That's-

    13. AAAli Abdaal44:53

        That's nice

    14. RWRichard Wiseman44:53

        ... yeah. It's, it's, it's-

    15. AAAli Abdaal44:54

        Yeah

    16. RWRichard Wiseman44:54

        ... a fun thing.

    17. AAAli Abdaal44:55

        Yeah. That, I, I guess that speaks to k- everyone knows the cliché, treat failure as a learning opportunity.

    18. RWRichard Wiseman44:59

        Mm.

    19. AAAli Abdaal45:00

        But very few people would do the tactic.

    20. RWRichard Wiseman45:01

        Ex- exactly

    21. AAAli Abdaal45:01

        The tactic.

    22. RWRichard Wiseman45:02

        It's the tactic. It's, it's... Yeah, yeah, fine. So how do I do that?

    23. AAAli Abdaal45:06

        Yeah.

    24. RWRichard Wiseman45:06

        Well, here's the answer. It's a private thing. You can just write anything you want. No one's gonna look at it, but then just write what you're gonna do to stop that happening in the future. It's a lovely idea.

    25. AAAli Abdaal45:15

        Yeah.

    26. RWRichard Wiseman45:16

        And it's, it's buried because his, you know, his books are now quite old-

    27. AAAli Abdaal45:19

        Mm

    28. RWRichard Wiseman45:19

        ... and people aren't looking at them, but it's a lovely, lovely thought. His books are amazing. The reason why they're amazing, in part, is because he didn't write How to Win Friends and Influence People immediately. He went on a speaking tour for about a decade and, and learnt how to tell those stories, and the book are the transcripts of those talks.

    29. AAAli Abdaal45:37

        Mm.

    30. RWRichard Wiseman45:37

        And that's why they're such an easy read and so engaging, because when you talk, it's different to writing.
11. 49:04 – 50:38

    Research into the paranormal

    1. AAAli Abdaal49:04

       I, I, I was very intrigued by the whole sort of magic deception and suddenly going into like para- paranormal-

    2. RWRichard Wiseman49:09

       Yes

    3. AAAli Abdaal49:09

       ... stuff. Is there anything there in the paranormal stuff? Like-

    4. RWRichard Wiseman49:12

       I... Well-

    5. AAAli Abdaal49:12

       Yeah. [laughs]

    6. RWRichard Wiseman49:12

       ... depending what you mean by anything.

    7. AAAli Abdaal49:13

       Yeah.

    8. RWRichard Wiseman49:14

       I... Again, it's that thing, I just thought, "You know what? That sounds like an interesting-

    9. AAAli Abdaal49:17

       Yeah

    10. RWRichard Wiseman49:17

        ... thing to do for four years."

    11. AAAli Abdaal49:18

        Seemed really cool. Yeah.

    12. RWRichard Wiseman49:18

        Yeah. So, so I'll go and do that. There's something there.

    13. AAAli Abdaal49:21

        Yeah.

    14. RWRichard Wiseman49:21

        People h- we know that people have weird experiences.

    15. AAAli Abdaal49:24

        Yeah.

    16. RWRichard Wiseman49:24

        They see what they think are ghosts. They go to a psychic who seems to be able to predict their future or knows all about them or whatever.

    17. AAAli Abdaal49:29

        Mm.

    18. RWRichard Wiseman49:29

        The experience is totally genuine. Of course, there are some people that think they are genuinely paranormal.

    19. AAAli Abdaal49:35

        Yeah.

    20. RWRichard Wiseman49:35

        And I'm not one of them. I'm pretty skeptical-

    21. AAAli Abdaal49:37

        Okay

    22. RWRichard Wiseman49:37

        ... about such stuff. What interests me is not only what does explain those experiences-

    23. AAAli Abdaal49:43

        Mm

    24. RWRichard Wiseman49:43

        ... but more importantly, what do you learn along the way?

    25. AAAli Abdaal49:46

        Mm.

    26. RWRichard Wiseman49:47

        So if you go back to 1920s, for example, and Hans Berger, who's a German, uh, scientist-

    27. AAAli Abdaal49:54

        Mm

    28. RWRichard Wiseman49:55

        ... who has a telepathic experience-

    29. AAAli Abdaal49:57

        Yeah

    30. RWRichard Wiseman49:57

        ... then goes, "My goodness, I need to build a machine to measure brainwaves leaving, uh, the, the, the skull." Incredibly hard thing to do because brain's pretty isolated from the outside world, but he eventually comes up with a machine that can measure brainwaves in order to see them leaving the skull-
12. 50:38 – 53:54

    The mindset of going to the moon

    1. AAAli Abdaal50:38

       Uh, like I think, uh, one of your recent books about like kind of the different lessons for success and mindset and things from... that we can learn from the moon.

    2. RWRichard Wiseman50:44

       Yes. I, I love that. Yeah, that was, that was a fun book to do because I got to speak to the mission controllers-

    3. AAAli Abdaal50:50

       Yeah

    4. RWRichard Wiseman50:50

       ... who put, you know, a man on the moon, which was phenomenal.

    5. AAAli Abdaal50:53

       Yeah.

    6. RWRichard Wiseman50:54

       And they were a great group. Again, it came about through a chance conversation. I was talking to a comedian friend of mine, Helen Keen-

    7. AAAli Abdaal51:00

       Uh-huh

    8. RWRichard Wiseman51:00

       ... who's into space stuff-

    9. AAAli Abdaal51:02

       Mm

    10. RWRichard Wiseman51:02

        ... about Apollo missions, and she was talking about the technological spinoffs, and I said, "What about the psychological ones? Who's looked at the mindset-

    11. AAAli Abdaal51:10

        Mm

    12. RWRichard Wiseman51:10

        ... that put a person on the moon?"

    13. AAAli Abdaal51:11

        Yeah.

    14. RWRichard Wiseman51:11

        And she said, "I don't think anyone has, but you need to speak to the mission controllers." I said, "How would I get in touch with them?"

    15. AAAli Abdaal51:17

        Yeah.

    16. RWRichard Wiseman51:17

        She said, "You'd speak to my friend Craig"-

    17. AAAli Abdaal51:19

        Yeah

    18. RWRichard Wiseman51:19

        ... who at the time was a welder from Wales.

    19. AAAli Abdaal51:21

        Okay [laughs] .

    20. RWRichard Wiseman51:22

        And he's just a complete space nut. He's, uh... loves space and Apollo.

    21. AAAli Abdaal51:25

        Yeah.

    22. RWRichard Wiseman51:26

        And he's befriended them all. And so Craig introduced me to this incredible group of, uh, people.

    23. AAAli Abdaal51:31

        Yeah.

    24. RWRichard Wiseman51:32

        And they were really young at the time.

    25. AAAli Abdaal51:34

        Mm.

    26. RWRichard Wiseman51:34

        So mission control, when they started that, that work in the early '60s, average age in mission control, 21.

    27. AAAli Abdaal51:40

        Okay.

    28. RWRichard Wiseman51:41

        Even when, uh, Armstrong walks on the moon, average age 28.

    29. AAAli Abdaal51:45

        Yep.

    30. RWRichard Wiseman51:46

        Phenomenal. First in their families to go to college-
13. 53:54 – 58:01

    How to be more likeable

    1. AAAli Abdaal53:54

       I think in a, in a few of your books, you've touched on sort of likability and trust. Again, if we're, if we're thinking about principles and, and tactics, what are the things that, that we can apply in terms of how does one become more likable other than by reading Carnegie? [laughs]

    2. RWRichard Wiseman54:06

       Well, read, read Carnegie, I, I think is the best thing. I, I think... Well, first of all, don't fake it.

    3. AAAli Abdaal54:11

       Mm.

    4. RWRichard Wiseman54:12

       So Carnegie's got this great phrase, which is, "You can get more people to like you by becoming genuinely interested in other, in others than getting them to becoming interested in you." And, and people are fascinating. You've got something to learn from everyone you meet.

    5. AAAli Abdaal54:24

       Mm.

    6. RWRichard Wiseman54:24

       So develop that genuine interest-

    7. AAAli Abdaal54:28

       Yeah

    8. RWRichard Wiseman54:28

       ... I think. I don't think you can fake likability, or at least you can, but maybe not for very long.

    9. AAAli Abdaal54:34

       Mm.

    10. RWRichard Wiseman54:35

        And I think... I was thinking about this yesterday actually. I was thinking, when you go to a website, it's a bit like meeting another person.

    11. AAAli Abdaal54:42

        Mm.

    12. RWRichard Wiseman54:43

        And you think, "Is that website... Do I trust that website? Is it a likable website? Does it help me in, uh, what, to achieve what I'm trying to do? Is it straightforward?" I think all the attributes that we decide about humans, we're actually applying to websites-

    13. AAAli Abdaal54:57

        [laughs] Right

    14. RWRichard Wiseman54:58

        ... as, as, as well.

    15. AAAli Abdaal54:58

        Yeah.

    16. RWRichard Wiseman54:59

        And we have these websites we visit again and again-

    17. AAAli Abdaal55:01

        Yeah

    18. RWRichard Wiseman55:01

        ... like the news or where they become like an old friend that's telling us stuff. And I suppose trust is interesting 'cause it'd be like sort of blowing up the balloon, isn't it? That over time you trust somebody, but it only takes one moment of them lying to you, and that just vanishes.

    19. AAAli Abdaal55:16

        Mm.

    20. RWRichard Wiseman55:16

        So it's this thing which is quite hard to, to get. It'd be like sort of reputation.

    21. AAAli Abdaal55:20

        Yeah.

    22. RWRichard Wiseman55:21

        But it, it matters.

    23. AAAli Abdaal55:22

        Right.

    24. RWRichard Wiseman55:22

        It really matters.

    25. AAAli Abdaal55:23

        Yeah. Yeah, it's one of the things that compounds over time. Well, one thing on, on Carnegie's point about, you know, if you want to be likable, then be very interested, become very interested in other people, I think I really took that to heart when I first read the book. I think it was around the age of 15 or something. I was like, "Yeah, this is sick. Uh, this is great stuff." And then there was a bit of a sort of counter-narrative against that in some blog posts saying that, "Yeah, but if you want to, quote, get ahead in the world, if you want to achieve success, like you can't just become very interested in your boss. You have to actually offer something of value, um, for that exchange to become equitable rather than..." Like for ex- for example, if a, if a, an employee went to their boss and asked them loads of questions and was genuinely interested in the boss, there's a level of like the, the power dynamic at play doesn't necessarily tie-

    26. RWRichard Wiseman56:05

        Oh, I see

    27. AAAli Abdaal56:05

        ... tie into that. Any, any thoughts on that?

    28. RWRichard Wiseman56:08

        I'm not saying I have thoughts on that. I mean, I, I think it is hard when you've got a status difference-

    29. AAAli Abdaal56:14

        Mm

    30. RWRichard Wiseman56:14

        ... like that because one person's always gonna be suspicious of the other. But I think if it's genuine, you know, if you're genuinely interested in your boss and their life and what they're thinking and, and, and... I mean, they're-- we're all human. We've all got thoughts and worries and concerns and so on. So I think- I, I, I can still see it working, but I d- I, I do see the issue. Saw an interesting thing the other day, this was probably about a month ago, about mask wearing.
14. 58:01 – 1:02:29

    How much is positive self-talk useful?

    1. AAAli Abdaal58:01

       Factor is, is this idea that lucky people tend to expect good fortune. And then I think in Rip It Up you, you m- you mentioned the idea of self-talk, like I feel really enthusiastic, I feel especially productive, I feel like my life is within my control. And I was wondering, how does that relate to the sort of anti-manifestation, anti-affirmation kind of stuff?

    2. RWRichard Wiseman58:19

       I suppose-

    3. AAAli Abdaal58:19

       There's like-

    4. RWRichard Wiseman58:20

       Yeah

    5. AAAli Abdaal58:20

       ... this idea of positive self-talk and to what extent is that actually useful or?

    6. RWRichard Wiseman58:24

       It depends on individuals. What I said before-

    7. AAAli Abdaal58:26

       Mm

    8. RWRichard Wiseman58:26

       ... was that for, for me personally, it's not a great thing.

    9. AAAli Abdaal58:29

       Yeah.

    10. RWRichard Wiseman58:29

        If people... It's like all these things.

    11. AAAli Abdaal58:31

        Yeah.

    12. RWRichard Wiseman58:31

        You know, if, if, if you find it useful, then do it.

    13. AAAli Abdaal58:34

        Yeah.

    14. RWRichard Wiseman58:34

        And if you don't, stop doing it. You know, we're all different.

    15. AAAli Abdaal58:38

        Yeah.

    16. RWRichard Wiseman58:38

        And, and these books give general kind of advice.

    17. AAAli Abdaal58:41

        Yeah.

    18. RWRichard Wiseman58:41

        So, you know, some things will work for you, some things don't. For me, the self-affirmation thing doesn't work. I gave a talk two days ago and yesterday. I'll give one on Monday as well.

    19. AAAli Abdaal58:50

        Mm.

    20. RWRichard Wiseman58:51

        I don't stand in the wings going, "I am a good speaker."

    21. AAAli Abdaal58:53

        Yeah.

    22. RWRichard Wiseman58:54

        "I am a good person."

    23. AAAli Abdaal58:55

        Yeah.

    24. RWRichard Wiseman58:55

        It doesn't work. What I do do is a trick that, um, some Vegas performer friends of mine who'd have to do two shows a day. And I said, "How do you walk out and feel fresh?"

    25. AAAli Abdaal59:06

        Mm.

    26. RWRichard Wiseman59:07

        And they said, "We're in the wings, and we go, 'You know what? It's absolutely true. At some point we'll be too old to do this.'"

    27. AAAli Abdaal59:17

        Mm.

    28. RWRichard Wiseman59:17

        "At some point the audience won't turn up."

    29. AAAli Abdaal59:19

        Yep.

    30. RWRichard Wiseman59:20

        "At some point this will all go. We love doing it, but it will all go." And they let that thought rest, and then they go, "It's not tonight, though."
15. 1:02:29 – 1:21:21

    Magic and performing

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:02:29

       bit, uh, I want to talk to you about the magic stuff.

    2. RWRichard Wiseman1:02:31

       Yes.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:02:31

       So I'm, I am semi in the process of preparing my Magic Circle audition.

    4. RWRichard Wiseman1:02:35

       Oh, my goodness. You fool.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:02:37

       [laughs] Fool?

    6. RWRichard Wiseman1:02:39

       Um, no, it's great. No, you should-

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:02:40

       Yeah. [laughs]

    8. RWRichard Wiseman1:02:40

       I'm joking.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:02:42

       Yeah, um, and one of the, one of the, one of the items on my bucket list is to do a parlor show at the Edinburgh Fringe.

    10. RWRichard Wiseman1:02:47

        Yes.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:02:48

        Uh, and I see that you performed at the Edinburgh Fringe.

    12. RWRichard Wiseman1:02:50

        I was one of the directors for eight years.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:02:52

        Oh, you were? Oh.

    14. RWRichard Wiseman1:02:53

        I was on the board of The Fringe for eight years.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:02:54

        Nice.

    16. RWRichard Wiseman1:02:54

        Yeah. Yeah.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:02:55

        Did, did you perform there as well?

    18. RWRichard Wiseman1:02:56

        Oh, many times.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:02:57

        Yeah

    20. RWRichard Wiseman1:02:57

        Yeah, many, many times.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:02:58

        What's, what's that like?

    22. RWRichard Wiseman1:02:59

        What's it like? Well, uh, it's a wonderful experience. You should definitely come up and do it.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:03:03

        Mm.

    24. RWRichard Wiseman1:03:03

        It's a, a tad competitive-

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:03:05

        Mm

    26. RWRichard Wiseman1:03:05

        ... because there's about five and a half thousand shows in town. And so y- it's a bit like street entertaining, you're trying to get an audience-

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:03:12

        Yeah

    28. RWRichard Wiseman1:03:12

        ... when there's a lot of competition around. But, uh, you get to do your show many times, and it's a very good way of, of finding out w- whether material actually works.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:03:22

        Mm.

    30. RWRichard Wiseman1:03:22

        So yeah, come on up. And you can... What, what's great about it is you can go and see so many other people's shows.

Episode duration: 1:21:22