The Ultimate Method To Take Control Of Your Life in 2023 - Ryder Carroll

1. 0:00 – 1:52

   Intro

   1. RCRyder Carroll0:00

      I created this methodology to help me become a lot more productive. I accomplished my goals one after the other, and it was never enough. There's gotta be something more. I had this system to help me become super productive, but then all of a sudden I took this system and started focusing it on my inner life. What is it that I want? And start focusing my own productivity tools as to becoming more productive with my own self-awareness.

   2. AAAli Abdaal0:22

      What you're about to hear is an interview with Ryder Carroll, who is the inventor of the bullet journal method.

   3. RCRyder Carroll0:28

      I like to describe it as a mindfulness practice that's disguised as a productivity system. It helps you organize what you're doing, but more importantly it helps you clarify why you're doing what you're doing.

   4. AAAli Abdaal0:38

      Ryder is incredibly inspiring. He has ADD, which caused various problems for him in childhood.

   5. RCRyder Carroll0:43

      Best way I can describe it is like trying to catch the rain. So I invented the bullet journal method as you know it now because I needed it.

   6. AAAli Abdaal0:49

      Throughout his career as a web and user interface designer, he found various different tools that he could use to stay productive, and those tools are what eventually morphed into the bullet journal method, which is now world famous. He's written a book called The Bullet Journal Method, which is a New York Times bestseller. In the conversation, we talk about how he came across the method, how he discovered it, and how various people over time have used the method to level up their own intentionality and mindfulness and productivity.

   7. RCRyder Carroll1:14

      But ultimately, that's what you're trying to do as a designer is help people, create tools that remove some kind of friction from somebody's life. And eventually, what was so funny is that the tools that I was using to organize myself was the thing that would ultimately become the tool that I could share.

   8. AAAli Abdaal1:32

      At the moment, according to the YouTube analytics, 81% of you who are watching this on YouTube have not yet hit the subscribe button. And so if you're, for example, in the now 81% of people who are watching this on YouTube but who are not subscribed to the channel, I would love it if you could do so, and it would be awesome to get that number down to 50%, and it would be cool to get like 50/50 sub/non-sub ratio just, just for fun.

2. 1:52 – 3:44

   The bullet journal origin story

   1. AAAli Abdaal1:52

      All right, Ryder, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This is, this is like super, super weird coincidence. So I s- I started bullet journaling about a month ago, and I mentioned it in my newsletter, and you happened to read my newsletter or see my newsletter, and then you, like, just sort of tweeted at me, and then we got talking, and here we are in London like a few weeks later. Uh, [laughs] like firstly, thank you so much for coming down. This is gonna be-

   2. RCRyder Carroll2:13

      Absolutely

   3. AAAli Abdaal2:14

      ... it's gonna be interesting. Um, so like so, so much stuff to talk to you about. I'd love to talk about kind of w- the, the origin of the bullet journal stuff-

   4. RCRyder Carroll2:23

      Mm-hmm

   5. AAAli Abdaal2:23

      ... and I guess what you're doing these days. But I guess like, you know, how... W- when you, when you connect the dots looking back, how did all of this start? How did you end up the inventor of this bullet journal thing, which probably most people listening to this will have heard of, if not, if not tried out?

   6. RCRyder Carroll2:39

      Yeah. I would say the origin story, as with most things, is necessity. So I grew up with learning disabilities back before the internet, where the only tool I had available to me was pen and paper. And so I started trying to figure out ways to be organized and productive, and I tested out everything I possibly could, and I had no resources available to me, right? You can't look something up like, "How do I ADD?" That's just not there. So I started developing different templates, different approaches, different tools, most of which didn't work. And then every once in a while, something did, and then something more and something more, and then you do that for 20 years and you start com- coming up with a system where all these different tools start working on top of one another. So I invented the bullet journal method as you know it now because I needed it, and I still need it. I need it all the time, you know? It's, it's... People always have this misconception that I'm like some super hyper productive human being, and it's not the case. I created this tool because there were challenges that I had, but they were different than the ones I thought initially, which we can get into-

   7. AAAli Abdaal3:43

      Yeah

   8. RCRyder Carroll3:43

      ... a little bit.

   9. AAAli Abdaal3:43

      So

3. 3:44 – 6:34

   What is the bullet journal method in a nutshell?

   1. AAAli Abdaal3:44

      I guess just as, as, as a bit of context for people who might not have heard about the bullet journal method-

   2. RCRyder Carroll3:48

      Mm

   3. AAAli Abdaal3:48

      ... like what is it in a nutshell? And then we can kind of explore origin story and like the, the arc of...

   4. RCRyder Carroll3:53

      Sure. Yeah. Uh, I like to describe it as a mindfulness practice that's disguised as a productivity system. So it helps you organize what you're doing, but more importantly it helps you clarify why you're doing what you're doing. So it revolves much more around purpose than process, but it provides both.

   5. AAAli Abdaal4:11

      Hmm. That's interesting, 'cause like I've, I've, I've been hearing about it on the grapevine for years. I think I first read it about, read about it on Lifehacker or something like classic. And in my mind it was just like, oh, it's, it's, it's a productivity system, like the... I wouldn't have... Like the word mindfulness would've been very low on the list of things that I would've used to describe it before I knew about the thing.

   6. RCRyder Carroll4:30

      Yeah.

   7. AAAli Abdaal4:30

      Like what, what, what's going on there? Is, is, is that a common, common reaction that you hear?

   8. RCRyder Carroll4:35

      It's a common reaction, um, because a lot of people initially with bullet journal, when they get to know about it, comes through social media, which is great, and it's, it's both a blessing and a curse in that like a lot of people see a bullet journal, but when you encounter something on Instagram or Pinterest, generally speaking, that audience is much more visual. So chances are their interpretations will also focus on the visual aspect of bullet journaling, which means that it can be very creative interpretation or expression of bullet journaling, which is completely unnecessary. Um, so a lot of people see these incredibly decorated beautiful bullet journals and like that's what bullet journaling is. But it can be, to me and to a lot of other people, there, there's a lot that's lost when you see it online. So I understand why people are like, "Oh, it's like an artistic notebook." It can be, but that's really, that's really what I try to get across with a lot of my work. It's trying to figure out what you need it to be. That's the essence of bullet journaling. It's like trying to develop a tool based on very specific intention. So that's, that's where I like to focus my, my, all my work is what is the intention? What i- what problem are you trying to solve? What goal are you trying to accomplish? And then assembling the tools around that, if that makes sense. That's where the mindfulness comes in. Why do you need to get organized? What do you need to get organized about? That kind of thing. I feel like I'll- Productivity and process often, um, I think comes before the purpose, and that's a huge issue. At least it was for me. You know, as I was developing this methodology, I was kind of guilty of the same thing. If I become productive, then I will com- accomplish my goals. Okay, great. What happens after you accomplish your goal? Not much, right? [chuckles] Not much. It's like, it's done. But when you accomplish your goals in service of something bigger, whatever that is, right? Then all of a sudden it's meaningful, and that was the missing part for me.

   9. AAAli Abdaal6:33

      Hmm.

4. 6:34 – 10:30

   Growing up with ADD

   1. AAAli Abdaal6:34

      So you grew up, you grew up with ADD?

   2. RCRyder Carroll6:37

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AAAli Abdaal6:37

      What is, what is that like?

   4. RCRyder Carroll6:39

      What is that like? Um, I think it's ... The best way I like ... The best way I can describe it is like trying to catch the rain. That's, that's the best metaphor I can come up with. It's like everything seems important, and you don't know what to focus on. Is it this thing? Is it this thing? Is it this thing? Is it this thing? So you spend all your time trying to catch everything, and then everything falls through the cracks. So that was my challenge, like trying to catch the rain. And then my, the challenge was that that's impossible, and trying to solve for that challenge is also impossible. And over, over time, I guess what I started to realize is trying to understand why you're standing in, in the first place. Like, what is it that you're trying to do? What is meaningful to you? And then trying to organize around that, like having a core organizing principle before you find the system, if that makes sense.

   5. AAAli Abdaal7:30

      So how did you go about doing that, I guess-

   6. RCRyder Carroll7:31

      Again

   7. AAAli Abdaal7:31

      ... before the system develops? Yeah.

   8. RCRyder Carroll7:33

      Well, sure. I mean, the system actually helped me make that realization, which is interesting. At first, it helped me become really focused and productive, so it accomplished those things, check, check. And that's also why the productivity part of Bullet Journal, I think was the thing that caught on really quickly because as soon as people start doing it, they get things done. Things just start happening. And once you start doing it for a while, something shifts. You hear this often, and then it was interesting, which was something we can get into. Like you start as a productivity method, and then all of a sudden something changes. It's not like how to organize something, but it's like, why is this important? The, the, the, the, the question shifts.

   9. AAAli Abdaal8:11

      Mm.

   10. RCRyder Carroll8:11

       You know, it's like, okay, I'm getting more done, but I'm not feeling any better or more accomplished. And it's like, okay, so why are you doing those things? Like, ooh, I don't, I don't really know. It's like, okay, maybe that's the question you begin with. And for me, to, to provide a very clear example, for me, I created this methodology to help me become a lot more productive, right? I accomplished my goals one after the other. I got the raise, I got the position, I got the thing, and it was never enough, right? It's like, okay, maybe it's just the next step. It's the next step. And every time I took the next step, I found myself in the same place, which is like, there's gotta be something else. There's gotta be something more. And this was very much in the, the, the corporate ladder. And then I'm like, okay, maybe the problem is that I'm working for other people, so maybe I should work for myself and start my own company, which is something that I ended up doing. For two years, me and this other guy created this startup, and this was on top of our full-time job. So we did the whole startup thing, you know, like sleeping under the desk, ordering pizza, all that stuff for years. And then we launched this product, and it was successful, and it didn't matter. It didn't make me feel any better. The work was great, 'cause I love doing the work. I love design work. I love figuring out problems and all these things, but when it finally launched, it didn't matter. And I'm like, "Why don't I feel any better?" It's like, I thought I wanted this, and I clearly I don't, so what is it that I actually want? What do I care about? And all of a sudden there's a big question mark there. And I realized that I was accomplishing other people's goals. It's like, as a designer, the whole thing is to have your own design company or to have your own product or to be the art director, and I did all those things and all that wasn't true, right? It was ... I accomplished other people's goals and realized that it didn't mean much to me. So all of a sudden I had this system to help me become super productive. But then all of a sudden I took this system and started focusing it on, I would say, say like my inner life, right? What is it that I want? And start focusing the same tools as my own productivity tools as to becoming more productive with my own, I guess, self-awareness. And that's where it became super interesting, noticing my own patterns. What do I respond to? What do I not respond to? What, what do I want more of? What do I want less of? And that's where it became really interesting.

   11. AAAli Abdaal10:27

       Hmm. Okay. Loads more questions

5. 10:30 – 20:16

   Building and selling your business

   1. AAAli Abdaal10:30

      on that front.

   2. RCRyder Carroll10:30

      Yeah.

   3. AAAli Abdaal10:31

      Uh, before we go there, so w- w- what was the day job, and then how did that transition to the startup like?

   4. RCRyder Carroll10:36

      Okay.

   5. AAAli Abdaal10:36

      What was that arc?

   6. RCRyder Carroll10:37

      Sure. So I, um, I guess you could say that I was a UX designer for most of my career. Started in the early web- website design stuff when that wasn't common, actually. I mean, I'm probably dating myself here, but-

   7. AAAli Abdaal10:52

      What year were we talking?

   8. RCRyder Carroll10:54

      Um, I would say early 2000s.

   9. AAAli Abdaal10:56

      Hmm.

   10. RCRyder Carroll10:56

       Right?

   11. AAAli Abdaal10:56

       Okay. Yeah.

   12. RCRyder Carroll10:57

       So people didn't really have personal websites, but that was happening, so I started designing a lot of websites for small businesses, and then eventually I started designing websites for bigger and busier- bigger businesses. And then I started designing web tools, like actual apps, and that's kind of what I focused on. I liked this idea of creating systems that help people accomplish things.

   13. AAAli Abdaal11:18

       Mm.

   14. RCRyder Carroll11:18

       And a lot of that systems thinking actually went back into the analog space, 'cause I found that, and very much part of the development of Bullet Journal was like the idea of like applying a certain set of principles to my own life, and then actually treating my life as a product was a really interesting shift, right? Like w- what are the challenges? What are the bugs?

   15. AAAli Abdaal11:37

       Yeah.

   16. RCRyder Carroll11:37

       What are the features? And tackling it that way.

   17. AAAli Abdaal11:40

       Nice. Yeah, I think, so I, I think I, I bu- I did, I did, I built my first website in like 2006. And I remember, um, kind of it was, it was, it was in, it was in like the computer room at school. Some kid had like right clicked on the Google homepage and clicked View Source-

   18. RCRyder Carroll11:57

       Mm

   19. AAAli Abdaal11:57

       ... in like Internet Explorer 4 or whatever it was at the time. And I was like, "Whoa, this guy's a hacker," 'cause you could see all the s- the code and, and things.

   20. RCRyder Carroll12:03

       [laughs]

   21. AAAli Abdaal12:04

       And I was like, "All right, cool. Copy paste .html." Be like, "Why isn't the image showing?" I was like, "Oh, okay, cool. I need to reference the image locally" and, and s- started tinker- tinkering with stuff, and then got into the world of like, yeah- ... trying to design websites for small businesses to make five, $10 here and there, trying to undercut everyone in India who was trying to do the same thing. Um, were you working for yourself, working for an agency? What, like, what did that look like in, in the early days?

   22. RCRyder Carroll12:25

       At first I was working for myself, and then I started working as a permalancer at different actually fashion companies who were putting more and more emphasis on their web presence. So they had, like, very basic sites and then they hired people like me to kind of zip it up a little bit, right? [laughs]

   23. AAAli Abdaal12:42

       Mm-hmm.

   24. RCRyder Carroll12:42

       You know, add interactive shopping experiences-

   25. AAAli Abdaal12:45

       Nice

   26. RCRyder Carroll12:45

       ... or have digital campaigns like falling snow and-

   27. AAAli Abdaal12:48

       Yeah

   28. RCRyder Carroll12:48

       ... winter landscapes and make it a little bit more creative.

   29. AAAli Abdaal12:51

       And so you did that for a few years and then decided to do the startup alongside.

   30. RCRyder Carroll12:55

       Yeah.
6. 20:16 – 23:20

   Finding your most successful productivity tool

   1. AAAli Abdaal20:16

      of tools were you using to stay productive before it coalesced into the method?

   2. RCRyder Carroll20:21

      Everything. I was, like, a hopeless early adopter. It's like, a new app, I'd be on it immediately. And sometimes it helped me here, or sometimes it helped me there, but it's, it's, it's ... I don't know. Um, I mean, you name it, I probably used the app-

   3. AAAli Abdaal20:35

      Yeah. [laughs]

   4. RCRyder Carroll20:35

      ... I used the system, I used all of it. And what's funny is that I learned so much more after I started sharing, like, BuJo work, right? People are like, "Oh, have you heard of David Allen?" I'm like, "No, I hadn't. I probably should have at some point," but, like, all these great thinkers in the space. And I'm like, "Okay, what do they say about this stuff?" And it's been really exciting for me because I'm as much of a student of all this stuff as I have a teacher.

   5. AAAli Abdaal21:00

      Mm.

   6. RCRyder Carroll21:01

      And so yeah, I continue to use stuff all the time, you know? [laughs] Like, I, I love this stuff.

   7. AAAli Abdaal21:05

      Yeah.

   8. RCRyder Carroll21:05

      It's fun. It's like, okay, how do I make more ... How do I make better use of my time?

   9. AAAli Abdaal21:11

      And so what were the dots that connected for you to result in the, "Oh, this is, this is the pen-and-paper-based method that I have found the most, most helpful"?

   10. RCRyder Carroll21:20

       Yeah.

   11. AAAli Abdaal21:20

       Like, having, having tried these, like, thousand different things.

   12. RCRyder Carroll21:22

       Um, okay. So there are a couple things there. One is it's not done, which is the fun part, right? Like, here are the ... Here's the minimum viable product. That's kind of what I share with people. Like, here are the fewest amount of tools I've found to be successful over the longest period of time. Try them on for size and see if they work for you. Um, I think that I never intended on sharing this, so maybe we can approach it from that angle. What happened was that people always saw me sitting down with a notebook, especially in the, uh, as somebody that's a digital native and working in digital design, people are like, "You always have a notebook. What are you doing in there?"

   13. AAAli Abdaal21:58

       Mm.

   14. RCRyder Carroll21:58

       I'm like, "Well, thinking." [laughs]

   15. AAAli Abdaal22:01

       Mm.

   16. RCRyder Carroll22:01

       "That's what I'm doing. I'm trying to figure out stuff, drawing, whatever."

   17. AAAli Abdaal22:04

       Yeah.

   18. RCRyder Carroll22:04

       "It's a canvas." And then people would be like, "Well, so how would you deal with this problem?" Or, "How would you deal with this problem?" Or, "How would you organize this?" And I would show them, like, one piece of the methodology or, at that time, just what I was doing, and I found over and over again that no matter what their background was, it would be useful, especially for people who only did things online. And I was like, huh, maybe I should share some of this stuff. Um, and that's kind of what ended up incentivizing me to coalesce everything to share it. And so I stripped everything out but the most helpful tools that had ... The things that had worked over the longest period of time. And a lot of that's just about writing down your thoughts. That's the core of it. Like, in bullet journal, you write down three things: the things you have to do, the things that you experience, and the things you don't wanna forget. And then you come back to those things in regular intervals. That's the greatly diminished, uh, version of bullet journaling. It's writing things down and reading what you wrote and trying to connect the dots over time.

   19. AAAli Abdaal23:07

       So those three, three, those three things were writing down what you have to do-

   20. RCRyder Carroll23:11

       Tasks, events, and notes

   21. AAAli Abdaal23:12

       ... tasks, events, and notes. Okay. Yeah, I guess that's kind of what mine looks like as well. But, but because so ...

7. 23:20 – 34:03

   The core principles of the method

   1. AAAli Abdaal23:20

      I guess you must get this a lot, but I, like, I, I first ... I mean, I'd, I'd heard of the, the, the method, like, years ago on some random productivity blog or something. Always thought, oh, interesting. Like, hmm, I'll file that info later to try at some point. And then, um, my friend Matt D'Avella did a video recently where he tried bullet journaling, and I was like, huh, okay, interesting. Like, it's not too art- artsy fartsy like I, I sort of imagined it would be.

   2. RCRyder Carroll23:44

      [laughs] Sure.

   3. AAAli Abdaal23:44

      And then I started watching a few other videos about it, and I was like, oh, this actually is really helpful. Like, I, I need a way to look at my year for the whole year 'cause I've ... One thing, like, the problem with Google Calendar is that, like, it's ... forces you to think very zoomed in, and if you try and zoom out, like, suddenly you can't see anything at all because now it's just little dots on a, on a thing. And I was like, oh, this, this, like, future logs thing seems great. Oh, like, month at a glance. Yeah, I'd, I'd lo- ... That'd be really helpful, just being able to see my calendar at a glance and figure out, like, you know, where, where do I have blocks in my calendar where I should probably take some time off and go on holiday or something. And oh, you know, this daily thing of, like, actually figuring out what your most important task is for the day or what, what tasks you have to do. I was sort of doing a version of that.

   4. RCRyder Carroll24:24

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AAAli Abdaal24:24

      And so we, we released our own, like, stationary line, which where it's like every day is a page, and it asks you- Three things you're grateful for. It asks you what's your most important task, and the sort of the might-to-do list-

   6. RCRyder Carroll24:35

      Mm-hmm

   7. AAAli Abdaal24:35

      ... things that you might, you might wanna do with like a little brain dump area. Um, and I was like, "Oh, I'm also... I'm, I'm already kinda using this, this sort of most important task method. Let's, let's try this bullet journal thing." And then I came across the book, and I listened to the book on Audible, and I think that might have been a mistake because it was, it was, like, hard to imagine what was going on-

   8. RCRyder Carroll24:53

      [laughs]

   9. AAAli Abdaal24:54

      ... when just listening to it on Audible. And so I think that- that's one of the tricky things about this k- k- because I guess it's, it is somewhat visual. But I guess, like, with, with that caveat in mind, so, like, what are the, like, the core principles-

   10. RCRyder Carroll25:07

       Mm-hmm

   11. AAAli Abdaal25:07

       ... I guess, of, of the method? Um, and obviously people... Well, we'll put links to the, the book, which I recommend not getting on Audible-

   12. RCRyder Carroll25:13

       [laughs]

   13. AAAli Abdaal25:13

       ... because then you can, you can, you can see what's going on when you get it on Kindle or in, or in real life. [laughs]

   14. RCRyder Carroll25:18

       It, it really helps to see what's being talked about-

   15. AAAli Abdaal25:21

       Yeah

   16. RCRyder Carroll25:21

       ... for sure. Um, okay.

   17. AAAli Abdaal25:26

       Tasks, events, notes.

   18. RCRyder Carroll25:27

       Task- tasks, events, and notes. So I'm trying to think of a way to have a non-visual-

   19. AAAli Abdaal25:32

       Yeah

   20. RCRyder Carroll25:33

       ... version of describing this.

   21. AAAli Abdaal25:34

       [laughs]

   22. RCRyder Carroll25:34

       I, I think the best way to think about it is writing down your thoughts in a really distilled way. So a lot of people know how powerful journaling can be, right? They hear about all the mental health benefits that it can have, and I s- very much encourage long form journaling.

   23. AAAli Abdaal25:54

       Mm.

   24. RCRyder Carroll25:54

       But it takes a lot of time.

   25. AAAli Abdaal25:56

       Yeah.

   26. RCRyder Carroll25:56

       Right? And a lot of people see it only as an emotional thing, right? It's like I, I journal when I'm confused or when I'm sad or when I'm angry, and that can be helpful. And then you have bulleted, bullet lists, which essentially are for very specific things. This is what I have to buy, you know. The- these are my goals. These are all these things. So bullet journaling kind of combines the best of both worlds, where it helps you organize your thoughts as bulleted lists. That's one component. There's two parts of the bullet journal method, the system and the practice. The pra- the system is how you organize information, and then the practice is more about what you do with what you write down. I like to say that, you know, writing down, writing things down is only the beginning. So you write down the things that you experience, so your events, the things that you don't wanna forget, which are your notes, and then, uh, your tasks, things that are actionable, right?

   27. AAAli Abdaal26:44

       Hmm.

   28. RCRyder Carroll26:44

       And-

   29. AAAli Abdaal26:45

       Okay. Sorry, please.

   30. RCRyder Carroll26:46

       Go ahead. And each one of those has a different icon in front of it, so as you're writing things down, you're also categorizing your thoughts in real time. And the only way to make that sustainable is figure out a way to write down less, right? You're really trying to focus on what really matters, and that is part of the practice, right? You're listening to somebody and you're like, it focuses... It helps you become an active listener, right? It's like what about this is the takeaway specifically? So you're starting to think about what's being said in a very different way, 'cause, like, hearing and listening are two [laughs] very different things. So it's like, okay, what about this is important? And then using your own words to capture it, and that process as well, like, using your own words helps you retain it better and helps you f- make it more personal, all these things, and you're doing this throughout the day. So information that's coming from the outside being filtered through your brain and then being added to your bullet journal. So that's, like, a big part of it, capturing things. And you record. So the bullet journal method works in a cycle, which is record, reflect, refine, and respond. And those are, like, the four steps. So you record by writing things down. Then you reflect on the things that you wrote down and try to come up with insights and different takeaways. And then you take action accordingly, right? That's essentially what you're trying to do. The bullet journal creates both a framework for you to organize your information, but also how to think about your information and then make all that insight actionable. That's the big part. Like, what do you do with what you learn?
8. 34:03 – 48:46

   Using intentionality and rituals to organise your time

   1. AAAli Abdaal34:03

      question of, like, why am I, why am I here on this earth?

   2. RCRyder Carroll34:05

      Yeah. So I, I think the best way to think about the bullet journal method as a whole is as your laboratory for life, right? And I like using a notebook because it's a blank page, essentially, and you create whatever game or goal you want to play every day. And what's beautiful about this methodology, it's powered by your intention. What is it that you're curious about? What do you want more of? What do you want less of? And then you start finding the tools that's helped support that. I provide a bunch of different tools to help you organize your thoughts and different rituals. So daily ritual, weekly ritual, monthly ritual, those kind of things to help you check in. But a big part of this is about self-discovery, right? So for me, the thing that was so challenging growing up is people kept shoving productivity systems down my throat, like, "This will make you smart. This will make you more productive," but none of them worked the way that my mind worked. And a big part about bullet journaling is discovering what works for you, and that changes all the time, which is what makes it relevant over time, right? Like, when you're working nine to five, it's one thing. When you become a parent, it's another thing. When you start traveling, it's another thing. When you're reading this, it becomes a different thing, you know? And that's what keeps on making it relevant. So I provide a basic foundation that helps keep everything on the rails, if you will, but then it's like your, your laboratory, and you get to experiment with that. All of it revolves around thinking. Like, that's a big part of it. How do you organize your thinking around your intention, around your values, around your curiosity? So we have tasks, events, and notes. That's the most basic piece of the puzzle, right? These are the things that are happening. And a lot of times people think notes are just, you know, this is what I have to do tomorrow or, you know, somebody likes the color blue. But for me, notes are like, what are you feeling? What's coming up? Right? So like, okay, I did this thing and I feel this way, and then we have rituals to come back to all of this content and be like, "Oh, that's interesting. I worked on this thing, and I've been feeling sad all month. Like, this project that I thought was really exciting is actually just really bumming me out, and it's not bringing me closer to what I want, and I wouldn't have noticed that unless I had read my own story."

   3. AAAli Abdaal36:18

      Yeah.

   4. RCRyder Carroll36:18

      And that's what you're doing with bullet journaling. You're writing your own story, and you're starting to realize when that story is not making sense or it's not the story you wanna tell. And then every morning you wake up and you start telling that story anew.

   5. AAAli Abdaal36:32

      I found that I've started, I've started writing those sorts of things recently. Oh, like Wednesday the 21st, so like two days ago I wrote, um, event, podcast with Alex and Matteo, event, podcast with Tim, um, this other thing that was canceled, this other thing that was canceled, and I said that, oh, I did im- uh, uh, uh, intermittent fasting 12 to 8 feeding window, felt great. And I have never written down something like that before. I mean, except like the day before I was like, "Huh, you know, let me actually write down how I'm feeling with this bullet journaling type stuff." And just the fact that I now have those two data points that, hey, I actually only ate in between 12 and 8:00 PM, felt pretty good. That's really useful for me, for me to know because I probably would've thought that or felt that in the past, but the fact that I hadn't written it down means that it didn't register with me in, in some way.

   6. RCRyder Carroll37:17

      Yeah.

   7. AAAli Abdaal37:17

      And now I'm like, "Oh, this intermittent fasting stuff really has something going for it." And today I had breakfast with my brother, so I didn't do that. So I'm curious as to how my, kind of, how my body feels and stuff [chuckles] when I don't do that. Um, okay, so, so we've got task events notes, which feels like kind of ground level, like here in the moment on this da- like almost on a, on a daily cadence, what are the tasks events notes.

   8. RCRyder Carroll37:40

      Mm-hmm.

   9. AAAli Abdaal37:40

      What other, what other, I guess, modules or tools are there that help guide more like intentionality?

   10. RCRyder Carroll37:47

       Yeah. So essentially I would say that the practice is more about intentionality. So every bullet journal, I always encourage people to set an intention. What is it that you wanna learn about yourself, right? Or what challenge do you want to tackle? What goal or ambition do you have? And then a lot of your notes will be anchored around that, and so that's really helpful. It, it, it... And in order for that to work, you need rituals, right? I, I, I prefer the word rituals over habits because I feel like habits-

   11. AAAli Abdaal38:16

       Like brushing my teeth is a habit

   12. RCRyder Carroll38:18

       ... Well, you also said it, said it. For me, habits are things or behaviors that you're trying to make automatic, right? That's it. Like the ideal thing is that you go to the gym and you don't even realize that that happened. I don't know. In my own life, I've, I don't think I've ever created a good habit that I haven't had to think about a lot, which is why I think rituals are so much more important because a ritual is a set of behaviors that serves something meaningful, and actually doing those things requires a lot of attention, right? So in bullet journal, we don't have habits, we have rituals, and we have daily rituals, weekly rituals, monthly rituals, yearly rituals, and they help us think at different time scales about our life, right? What's, what's happening today might not have context yet.

   13. AAAli Abdaal39:00

       Mm-hmm.

   14. RCRyder Carroll39:00

       What's happening next week doesn't have context yet, but it will help you contextualize the days and monthly and so forth. So it helps us increase the resolution of both our past and what we want in our future.

   15. AAAli Abdaal39:13

       Hmm.

   16. RCRyder Carroll39:13

       We start identifying our own patterns by simply reading the story that we're writing down about our life. And when we realize it's like, "Oh, I really wish I knew about this," then all of a sudden you can just start taking notes from today onward about that. How are you feeling about your relationship? How are you feeling about your job? How is this project making you feel? So you become the author based on your intention, on your focus, and that shifts constantly, and that's why every bullet journal is completely unique to its author.

   17. AAAli Abdaal39:40

       What's, uh, what are some rituals that you personally find helpful? I guess daily, weekly, monthly, annual.

   18. RCRyder Carroll39:45

       Yeah. Um, writing is really important for me. It's... So I have regular intervals of longer form journaling. So for me, longer form journaling is actually quite taxing, but it's also immensely helpful. So in my weekly ritual, I will have a longer journaling session about the week gone by. For my month, it'll be about the last four weeks, that kind of thing. A year or when I get to the end of my notebook, it's about the notebook, like what have I learned? And that's really helpful. So I've been doing a lot of that. That's a great ritual. Also, just taking the time to read what I wrote, like that's a very consistent ritual for mine, of mine. Just sitting down at the end of the day and like, what do I need to do? What do I not need to do? [chuckles] That's another really important part about bullet journaling. We rewrite a lot of our content. That's a big part. We call it migration. So every day, every week, every month, we, you know, pick our priorities and we also move things forward. And in that process, we make a choice about the things that we are going to keep in our lives and the things that we let go of. So having rituals where we say no regularly is a core part of bullet journaling. It's not about keeping never-ending to-do lists. It's about having a systematized way of curating your life on an ongoing basis based on how your priorities change, your circumstances change. So the rituals are there to recommit to things and let things go and reorganize, right?

   19. AAAli Abdaal41:13

       Yeah.

   20. RCRyder Carroll41:14

       So like not only are you moving your content, you're also incrementally changing the way that you organize your content. It's like not only what you're organizing, but how you're organizing it. It's like, oh, this collection is not really working. Like this health tracker isn't really doing anything for me. Why not? I don't know. And a lot... Again, this gives us an opportunity to approach something with curiosity. Do... Is this fitness routine not working for me, or is it the way I'm organizing the fitness routine? And it gives you an opportunity to ask that question and think about it and then take that insight and then improve it next month, next week. [chuckles] So it's an iterative approach to curating your life.

   21. AAAli Abdaal41:57

       I think that's something that I'm not doing consciously enough or, like, as consciously as I would want to, just, like, really thinking of the intention behind the thing

   22. RCRyder Carroll42:05

       Mm-hmm

   23. AAAli Abdaal42:05

       ... because I think, like, one thing, one thing I have noticed these days is, you know, I have, I have my personal trainer sessions a few times a week, um, but I never look forward to it.

   24. RCRyder Carroll42:17

       [laughs]

   25. AAAli Abdaal42:17

       And I'm al- and I'm always glad that it's over. And I feel like... I so- sometimes the thought strikes me that, "Hmm, this thing feels a bit grim" And, like, when he cancels on me, I'm just like, "Yes, thank God for that." Uh, and if I were more intentional about how I, how I was feeling and, like, writing, writing that down, like at the... If at the start of the month I w- I'd be like, or whenever, "Huh, I wo- I wonder how I feel about my gym sessions" And then I would write down how I feel after each one. And then I'd think, "Okay, you know, what are some other ways to get exercise? I enjoy playing squash. How do I feel after a squash session? Feel, feel fricking great" That's a sign to me that actually, do I really wanna do this gym thing just for the sake of getting slightly bigger biceps? Probably not. Like, why don't I do something I actually enjoy? Is, is, is that sort of along the lines of what, what you mean by kind of being intentional about it?

   26. RCRyder Carroll43:00

       Bingo. You know, I think that a lot of us fa- myself included, fall into this trap of, like, automating a lot of our lives or trying to, and then it's no surprise that a lot of the things you've automated feel meaningless, or even worse, they feel like a real drain on your energy. You know? It's, it's, it's really hard to go to the gym for yourself, but when you realize that you're doing this thing because your health is at stake or, like, whatever, you're doing this exercise because you wanna be around for your kids, like, even a thing that's feels meaningless to you all of a sudden gets a s- real sense of purpose. So taking a moment to think about why you're doing what you're doing regularly can help you reconnect to your purpose, your why, your value. So even the things that aren't fun, like nobody likes doing the dishes, right? Very few people, but it's a way for you to show your partner that you're committed to this relationship. So if you only focus on you not doing the dishes, no big deal, but if you focus on you wanting to, like, have a sustainable and healthy relationship, you're like, "Okay, I know why I'm doing this" Doesn't make the dishes great, but it doesn't feel like a waste of time, and that's when things, I think, get really dangerous, when you feel like things are a waste of time or they're meaningless. And some things are, and it's really important to stay aware of that. Sometimes we're just doing things because they snuck into our to-do list, and then even things that we were excited about become like, "Oh, I have to learn French now because two years ago I thought that was cool, and now I feel ashamed that I haven't done these classes even though I'm not at all interested in learning French now" [laughs]

   27. AAAli Abdaal44:34

       Yeah.

   28. RCRyder Carroll44:36

       So you're just curating and letting go of things constantly based on your current circumstances.

   29. AAAli Abdaal44:41

       So do you have... I guess the, the term you use is collections-

   30. RCRyder Carroll44:45

       Yeah
9. 48:46 – 54:35

   The process of migration

   1. RCRyder Carroll48:46

      is you go back through the previous month, and you look at all the tasks that are still open. I've been doing this for a really long time, and I've never gotten everything, every single thing done. So there's two options there. A lot of us are like, "Oh, wow, I'm lazy. I didn't do this stuff," and then you beat yourself up, and that's the end of it. Or what I try to advocate for is ask yourself, why did this not get done, right? From a genuine part of curiosity, and then a genuine place of curiosity. And then you start figuring out the reason. It was too big. It was too complicated. I don't care about this thing. And we use this thing called the filter, where we ask ourselves three questions. Is this thing vital, right? Does this need to get done? And vital things are usually things that would get us in trouble, right? Rent, student loans, whatever. Then the second question is, does it matter? Does it matter to you or to someone that you love? Usually, it's easier to answer whether or not something matters to somebody that you love, but when it, it comes to us, it can be a little bit of a grayer area, right? Does this still matter to me? And it's a very basic question, but oftentimes you see that, like, the French lessons are a great, great example. It's like, okay, I've been migrating this thing month after month after month after month, and I have to be honest with myself, I don't care about learning French anymore, and I can just let that go, right? So does it matter-

   2. AAAli Abdaal50:08

      Yeah

   3. RCRyder Carroll50:08

      ... yes or no? And you get to determine that. So you're being intentional about what you're recommitting to. And then the third question, if you don't know if it's vital or if it matters, are there any consequences for not doing it, ever? It just changes the context around. And if you can't think of a single reason or a single consequence for not doing this thing, then chances are it's not vital, and it doesn't matter. And then you actually just cross it off. You leave it behind. So once a month, you're making a choice of what you wanna recommit to, and then you rewrite those things in your next monthly log. So that way, you're constantly curating the things that you're allowing into your life. Like, in the bullet journal, your tasks aren't just stuff you have to do. These are all experiences waiting to be born because every action requires time and attention.

   4. AAAli Abdaal50:54

      Yep.

   5. RCRyder Carroll50:54

      This is how your life is constructed. This is how your life is built. So you're choosing what you want your life to consist out of every month. And if something isn't even worth a moment to rewrite it... 'Cause people are always like, "Oh, wait, I have to rewrite stuff? That's gonna take way too much time. It's a waste of time." I'm like, if something's not worth a moment to rewrite it, then chances are it's not adding a lot of value to your life. So it's not really a bug. It's a feature.

   6. AAAli Abdaal51:20

      Yeah. This was a big le- a big kind of firmware upgrade I had in my mind for th- for this thing-

   7. RCRyder Carroll51:25

      [laughs]

   8. AAAli Abdaal51:25

      ... that, like, ex- exactly this, this thing that you just said, that it's, it's not a bug, it's a feature. I think, I think before I was... I, I, I had some friends that did bullet journaling. I was like, "Wait, what? Every month you, like, draw out the calendar for the month? What a waste of time. And you write down things that, and you, like, migrate them from the pre-" Like, screw that, like.

   9. RCRyder Carroll51:42

      [laughs] Yeah, like, throw it out.

   10. AAAli Abdaal51:42

       And then I tried it. I was like, oh, I get it. Like, [laughs] the fact that I am writing down an event multiple times, once in my annual log, once in my monthly log, means that, A, I look forward to it more, and B, the ones I don't look forward to, I'm like, "Wait a minute, why am I doing this thing?"

   11. RCRyder Carroll51:58

       Yeah.

   12. AAAli Abdaal51:59

       And so I say no to more things. I just looked at sort of the, the monthly thing that I did, I, I migrated from the previous month. Sign up to new gym, 'cause I'm moving house, so I need to do that.

   13. RCRyder Carroll52:07

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AAAli Abdaal52:08

       Cancel subscription with current gym, which I actually completely forgot about until I just read it now.

   15. RCRyder Carroll52:12

       [laughs]

   16. AAAli Abdaal52:12

       So I would've, in a, a week from now, would've seen that and been like, "Oh, crap, I actually need to do that." Uh, get preemptive couples therapy with my girlfriend just 'cause why not? I think that's important.

   17. RCRyder Carroll52:21

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AAAli Abdaal52:21

       Figuring a system for having lunch with the team, I think that's important. Um, there was this thing I was thinking around, like, do I wanna take a psychedelic? And I was like, I, I, I don't, actually don't think that's important to me right now. So I could just cross that 'cause I don't wanna migrate it over. And sign up for kickboxing, I still think that would be a cool thing to do. I haven't signed up yet, so I'll just migrate it over to the next month, which will be, I guess, whatever, Oct- October. And now I at least have those written down. So whe- whether it gets done or not is irrelevant. At least I have it written down, and I've actively every month decided that the things that I'm migrating to this month are sufficiently important at this point in time. And then I'll do them at some point or not. But either way, the fact that I've written them down means that they are there.

   19. RCRyder Carroll53:04

       Absolutely. And you get a moment to kind of check in with yourself and feel into it. You know, does this feel meaningful? Does this... Is this something you're excited about or not? Uh, that might seems like such a basic question, but how often do we ask ourselves that of our to-do list? Does this seem exciting? Is this a game that I wanna play?

   20. AAAli Abdaal53:21

       Yeah.

   21. RCRyder Carroll53:21

       You know, is this an experiment that I wanna run? 'Cause it's all experiments, all these things. If you're not interested in the experiment, then you better have a really good reason for investing your very limited time and attention into, you know? And that's what's so fun about it. I get to decide, what am I gonna commit to? What am I not gonna commit to, and why? 'Cause then you get to learn about things. Like, these are things that do not seem important to me 'cause I, I identify this pattern over years, right? It's, it's the paper mirror. I'm not doing well right now. I... What can I do about that? What, what... Can I ask for help? Can I, can I get something off my plate? So it helps you really check in with yourself and connect with yourself- Which is something that I find so important and valuable that it's hard to exaggerate, and all you're doing is writing things down on paper.

   22. AAAli Abdaal54:13

       Yeah.

   23. RCRyder Carroll54:13

       I mean, sure, you can do it in apps. Like, you don't need to do it in Notebook. What I love about a notebook, it helps you go offline immediately. You know, for me, when I was bullet journaling digitally, which I've tried of course, it's like I'm writing something down that's really meaningful to me, and all of a sudden I'm buying socks. I'm like, "Wait a second. How did that happen?" [chuckles]

   24. AAAli Abdaal54:29

       Yeah.

   25. RCRyder Carroll54:29

       You know what I mean? With a notebook, you just think differently.

   26. AAAli Abdaal54:33

       Yeah.

10. 54:35 – 59:25

    How your daily log works

    1. AAAli Abdaal54:35

       Okay, so some, some very tactical questions here.

    2. RCRyder Carroll54:38

       Sure.

    3. AAAli Abdaal54:38

       Let's say, you know, David Allen talks about capture-

    4. RCRyder Carroll54:41

       Mm-hmm

    5. AAAli Abdaal54:41

       ... as does Tiago, as does everyone in this space.

    6. RCRyder Carroll54:42

       Yeah.

    7. AAAli Abdaal54:42

       Let's say you're, I don't know, in the middle of this podcast you, you have a thought of like, "Oh, I need... Speaking, speaking of socks, I should buy some socks for my wife or, or whatever."

    8. RCRyder Carroll54:53

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AAAli Abdaal54:54

       What do you do with that piece of information in, like, w- let's say when, when you're in the middle of something?

    10. RCRyder Carroll55:01

        Sure. I mean, in the podcast I wouldn't do it because this-

    11. AAAli Abdaal55:03

        [laughs]

    12. RCRyder Carroll55:03

        ... is the most important part, and I, I would think that it's rude.

    13. AAAli Abdaal55:06

        [laughs]

    14. RCRyder Carroll55:07

        But, uh, let's say if it wasn't a podcast and I remember something that I have to write down, goes in my daily log. So we have-

    15. AAAli Abdaal55:13

        So you take the journal out?

    16. RCRyder Carroll55:14

        Take-

    17. AAAli Abdaal55:14

        Like, physically take it out of your bag?

    18. RCRyder Carroll55:16

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AAAli Abdaal55:16

        And then you write it in your daily log?

    20. RCRyder Carroll55:18

        Yes.

    21. AAAli Abdaal55:19

        As, like, a task?

    22. RCRyder Carroll55:20

        Mm-hmm. So the daily log is kinda like your inbox. It's a real- it's the messiest part of a bullet journal, essentially. You have your daily log, weekly log, monthly log to help you with your daily, weekly, and monthly rituals. So they're different templates that help you organize content based on different timescales, and the daily log is designed to be a good reflection of how crazy our days can be, right?

    23. AAAli Abdaal55:39

        Mm-hmm.

    24. RCRyder Carroll55:39

        So it's like, yeah, socks, you know, make sure you schedule doctor's appointments, send this person flowers, I don't feel great today, or I feel great today. You know, just whatever comes up, it... You're offloading it from your mind so you can stay as present as possible, which is a big part of this. You're just not distracted. 'Cause once you write something down, you just feel, you feel-

    25. AAAli Abdaal55:57

        Yeah

    26. RCRyder Carroll55:57

        ... like, "I don't have to worry about that"

    27. AAAli Abdaal55:58

        It's in the system. It'll come up at some point.

    28. RCRyder Carroll56:00

        Yes.

    29. AAAli Abdaal56:01

        And then, okay, and how often are you looking at your daily log?

    30. RCRyder Carroll56:04

        That, I mean, it really depends on the day.
11. 59:25 – 1:03:50

    Misconceptions about the bullet journal

    1. AAAli Abdaal59:25

       how... What, what do you th- what do you feel like people m- most get wrong about bullet journaling?

    2. RCRyder Carroll59:33

       I think the most common question or a com- let's say the most common c- concern that I get is, like, "I'm not an artist, I can't bullet journal." And that's always disheartening because if you see the core of bullet journaling, you don't need to be able to draw a straight line in order to bullet journal. It's very much about just writing down your thoughts. You can make it elaborate and you can make it beautiful, but mostly people think they have to be an artist, and it's really not about that. It's as simple as just writing down your thoughts in a line or two. Literally, that's it. So- For me, it's about setting an intention. What is it that you're trying to accomplish? How can this tool serve you? And then letting it unfold that way, seeing it as an experiment and seeing what works and what doesn't. And the, the thing that's so beautiful about it, what is it a laboratory for, right? I mentioned it is a laboratory. It's for you learning about yourself, seeing what tools you can build to solve problems for the way that you think. And the only way you're gonna figure that out is by doing it and learning from it. And like, okay, this layout is really effective. This one is not. Next month, I'm gonna iterate, I'm gonna iterate, I'm gonna iterate on the way I organize, what I'm focusing on. And you just, like, learn about yourself very quickly, and it's, it can be really fun.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:00:50

       Yeah. O- o- one of the things I really, I really love about this is that you actually, like, even, even though you sort of, you ha- you have a business around this and you've got the fancy notebooks, like, you aren't really trying to sell anything. Like, anyone can pick up any old notebook or even just, like, a random piece of paper and staple it together with some- with another one and do the method. Like, it's not that hard.

    4. RCRyder Carroll1:01:09

       Yeah.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:01:09

       And there's loads of blog posts and stuff on, on the website and on everyo- everyone else's productivity website around, like, how they do it. So-

    6. RCRyder Carroll1:01:15

       Yeah

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:01:15

       ... within, like, 10 minutes of watching a YouTube video or doing a bit of research and using just a random notebook that you have in your house, you can create your own bullet journal.

    8. RCRyder Carroll1:01:23

       Absolutely.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:01:24

       Oh, it was, like, almo- like, exactly a month ago that I first started doing it, where I just, like, immediately felt more intentional with how I'm spending my time. But also weirdly, I feel like time has slowed down for me.

    10. RCRyder Carroll1:01:37

        Hmm.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:01:38

        Because every day I take a moment in the morning to figure out what I wanna, what I wanna do for the day, and in the evening, I write down what made today different. And if I think of the rest of, almost the rest of this year pre-August, it sort of felt like it went by in a bit of a whir, and I almost can't remember it. But these last 30 days, like, I'm kinda surprised the month hasn't ended because I'm like, oh, yeah, it's been ... You know, I've done quite a, quite a few things. I looked down at my Homework for Life thing, the story stuff, and it's like I, I, I almost feel surprised when I get to a new week now because I'm like, oh, I have to draw out the week thing. I'm like, oh, yeah, it's been a while. It f- it feels like it's been a while since I've done that. And it, just, just v- very weird feeling of, like, time slowing down. Um, have you had that? Like, is, is, is that something you've heard from people?

    12. RCRyder Carroll1:02:24

        Yeah, absolutely. It, it's amazing what happens when you take the time to study your life because otherwise, I mean, especially in this digital age, time kind of vanishes. And during the pandemic, like, time wasn't even a thing anymore. So the way I like to talk about this is, like, bullet journaling is about taking time. You know, people always ta- talk about making time, and the truth is that time can't be made. Time can only be taken. It can be taken from you, or it can be taken by you. And bullet journaling is about taking the time to figure out what kind of life you wanna live. Like, how are you doing? What are you doing? Why are you doing it regularly? So it doesn't become this big existential dilemma. You know, it's like, why am I doing this today? Oh, that's something I can delegate.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:03:07

        Yeah.

    14. RCRyder Carroll1:03:08

        So that, that's... Time slows down when you think about it that way. And then the time moving forward bec- to me, it becomes much more intentional. Like, sure there's times where I'm not, not bullet journaling and things begin to fray a little bit, and it's like, oh, wow, time begins to speed up, and yeah, things start falling through the cracks. So it's just like, hmm, it's like taking a really deep breath and, like, looking at your life and being like, okay, this is where we are right now. What happens next? And you get to choose.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:03:35

        Yeah. Yeah.

    16. RCRyder Carroll1:03:36

        [laughs]

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:03:37

        Um, okay, let's, so let, so let's rewind back the clock a bit.

    18. RCRyder Carroll1:03:40

        Sure.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:03:40

        Let's say, uh, I think it was, uh, 20- 2013 you first started sharing stuff about the-

    20. RCRyder Carroll1:03:44

        Mm-hmm

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:03:44

        ... the, the BuJo. Um, how did the... How did, how did your life/business

12. 1:03:50 – 1:10:41

    Turning an idea into your business

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:03:51

       evolve from there? Like, how, how did this thing of my, my mates at work are asking me how I manage my to-do list morph into what is now your full-time job and a business surrounding it, where basically everyone has heard about what a bullet journal is?

    2. RCRyder Carroll1:04:02

       [laughs]

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:04:03

       [laughs]

    4. RCRyder Carroll1:04:04

       Yeah, I mean, it... I had just rolled off a year, uh, working on this startup for somebody else. I was just their design director, and it was kind of like a soul-crushing job. We get paid well, you know, all the things, but I just wanted to work on a personal project and like, okay, what can I build that's helpful, right? I wasn't the best designer in the world, not the best coder in the world, but I did happen to use my notebook in this really curious way that seemed to be helpful. I'm like, okay, so why don't I sit down and actually build a website showing people how I use my notebook?

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:04:34

       Yeah.

    6. RCRyder Carroll1:04:36

       And so in 2013, I sat down for like two, three weeks and then just systematized everything, or formalized it, I guess would be the better term, right? Okay, what is the... I, I need some language here-

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:04:47

       Yeah

    8. RCRyder Carroll1:04:47

       ... to describe these processes 'cause it's really difficult to describe to other people how you think. It's unnatural. It's like, this is how I think. So I actually had to create language and all that. And in about two weeks, I came up with the vocabulary and then designed this website to teach people the very basics of bullet journaling. And it was like a four-minute video, and I had to choose a name, and bulleted lists and journaling, it all kind of made sense. I put it together and launched that. And soon it got covered by this Lifehacker website and then this thing, and it kind of blew up, and I didn't really know what to do with it 'cause I was like, "I'm gonna launch it, and that's it. It's just there to help people."

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:05:27

       So it was just a blog at this point?

    10. RCRyder Carroll1:05:28

        Yeah.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:05:28

        Where you're just like, "Oh, here's the method."

    12. RCRyder Carroll1:05:30

        Here's the method. It's helped me. I hope it helps you.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:05:32

        Yeah.

    14. RCRyder Carroll1:05:32

        And it was kind of like a thank you letter to... A l- lot of people in the early web space just gave away their knowledge for free. They're like, "I'm trying to figure this out. This is how I solved it." And I benefited from that so much early on in my web career.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:05:43

        Yeah.

    16. RCRyder Carroll1:05:43

        Like, I don't know CSS or HTML. I had to, like, look it up online.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:05:47

        Yeah, Stack Overflow and stuff, yeah.

    18. RCRyder Carroll1:05:48

        E- exactly. I have, like, no idea, and all these people are sharing this wealth of information for free. And I was like, "Okay, my turn. Here you go." And then for the first year, I didn't really know what to do with it, but it kept on gaining more and more and more steam. And then something happened that I didn't realize or it never occurred to me, is that people started using the bullet journal method to solve challenges that are ... completely unknown and unfamiliar to me. You know, you have people dealing with PTSD, and veterans, and stay-at-home moms, and, you know, like, all these different groups started coming up, solving very, very different challenges with the same tool. They're just... It helped them organize their thinking in a way, and it was flexible enough to basically play into any kind of solution that they needed. And I was like, "Oh, wow, that's really fascinating," like people showing me how to use this system for problems that I don't have. And that got really exciting. So in 2014, I was like, "Why don't I build a website based on how other people use bullet journal as opposed to me?"

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:06:46

        Yeah.

    20. RCRyder Carroll1:06:47

        And then I created a Kickstarter to finance a new site to, like, actually hire myself, [laughs] 'cause I need to eat as well, um, to build a site based on other use cases, you know, for, for parents, for teachers, for students, all these things. And as a thank you, I partnered with this company called Leuchtturm to create a notebook for higher-tier backers. And I launched the Kickstarter, and then with like, within a day, all the notebook tiers had sold out, and people got really grumpy about like, "Why are the notebooks limited?" Like, "I want more notebooks." So all of a sudden, this thing that was focused on launching a new website turned into the beginning of launching a notebook that's specifically designed for bullet journaling. You can use any notebook you want, but this thing adds a lot of tools that are... make it even faster, you know, numbered pages, an index, like, all these different things. And that's when Bullet Journal turned into a business. People really wanted the notebook. And so I started selling the notebook, and over time, the notebook became more successful. And yeah, that was the beginning of the business.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:07:57

        It's such, it's such a nice notebook.

    22. RCRyder Carroll1:07:58

        [laughs] Thank you.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:07:59

        Like, how, how did you partner with Leuchtturm?

    24. RCRyder Carroll1:08:03

        It was the notebook that I was using-

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:08:05

        Okay. Yeah

    26. RCRyder Carroll1:08:05

        ... at the time. So I had used other notebooks before. I've b- I've been using notebooks all my life.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:08:09

        Yeah.

    28. RCRyder Carroll1:08:09

        And then actually, I was on a podcast, and somebody's like, "Have you ever used Leuchtturm notebooks?" This was before Bullet Journal was ever a business. It was just a blog, essentially. I like, "No, I haven't." They're like, "You should try it," and I did, and I'm like, "Oh, wow. This is amazing." And so I reached out to them, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, we've actually heard of you." And I'm like, "Would you be willing to, you know, do this miniature collaboration?" And all of a sudden, the demand was really high, and yeah, we designed this notebook from scratch. It's, it's interesting. It's both a blank canvas but also a really specific and detailed tool. [laughs] It's a really interesting, uh, project to balance.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:08:48

        This episode is very kindly brought to you by WeWork. Now, this is particularly exciting for me because I have been a paying, full-paying customer of WeWork for the last two years now. I discovered it during, you know, when the pandemic was in, on the verge of being lifted, and I'd spent, like, the whole year just sort of sitting in my room making YouTube videos. But then I discovered WeWork, and I was a member, me and Angus, my team members, we were members of the WeWork in Cambridge, and they have, like, hundreds of other locations worldwide as well. And it was incredible because we had this fantastic, beautifully designed office space to go to to work. And we found ourselves, like, every day, just at 9:00 in the morning, just going to WeWork because it was a way nicer experience working from the co-working space than it was just sitting at home working. These days, what me and every one on my team has is the All Access Pass, which means you're not tied to a specific WeWork location, but it means you can use any of their several hundred co-working spaces around London, around the UK, and also around the world. And one of the things I really love about the co-working setup is that it's fantastic as a bit of a change of scenery. So these days, I work from home. I've got the studio at home. But if I need to get some focused writing work done, and I've been, I'm feeling a bit drained just sitting at my desk all day, I will just pop over to the local WeWork, which is about a 10-minute walk from where I am. I'll take my laptop with me. I'll get some free coffee from there. I'll get a few snacks, and it's just such a great vibe, and you get to meet cool people. I made a few friends through meeting them at WeWork, and it's just really nice being in an environment almost like a library but kind of nicer because there's, like, a little bit of soft music in the background, and there's other kind of startup bros and creators and stuff in, in there as well. And it's just my absolute favorite co-working space of all time. It's super easy to book a desk or book a conference room using the app, and it's a great place to meet up with team members if you're gonna collaborate and you all live in different places. They've got unlimited tea and coffee and herbal teas and drinks on tap, and they've got soundproof booths in which to take Zoom calls and meetings. Anyway, if you're looking for a co-working space for you or your team, then I'd 100% recommend WeWork. Like I said, I've been a paying customer for theirs for the last two years, which is why it's particularly exciting that they're now sponsoring this episode. And if you want to get 50% off your first booking, then do head over to we.co/ali, and you can use the coupon code ‘ALI’ at checkout, A-L-I, to get 50% off your first booking. So thank you so much, WeWork, for sponsoring this episode.

13. 1:10:41 – 1:19:13

    How do you feel about the art side of bullet journaling

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:10:41

       What went into the design of this? Because, like, at first glance, it looks like their 1917 A5 notebooks with thicker paper.

    2. RCRyder Carroll1:10:48

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:10:49

       But presumably, like, you, you know, you're a U- UX designer.

    4. RCRyder Carroll1:10:52

       [laughs]

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:10:53

       Um, and this is the first time I've seen it IRL, so there's some s- some stuff that I'm missing. So yeah, w- w- what was the process like of designing this?

    6. RCRyder Carroll1:10:59

       That's also version two.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:11:00

       Oh.

    8. RCRyder Carroll1:11:00

       So version one was... So it included the instructions about how to bullet journal. Um, it had three bookmarks, which at the time wasn't a thing, numbered pages and index. So it basically created, it created all these tools to make bullet journaling ever so slightly easier-

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:11:18

       Yeah

    10. RCRyder Carroll1:11:18

        ... right? And more formal. And then over five, six years, we got a lot of feedback, and then-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:11:23

        Yeah

    12. RCRyder Carroll1:11:23

        ... we came out with version two. So, like, the artistry was something that was never something that I anticipated, right? But people like colors, and they like different pens and everything.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:11:31

        Yeah.

    14. RCRyder Carroll1:11:31

        So the next version had thicker paper, and it also has guides inside the grid to quickly chop up your pages-

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:11:38

        That's a good idea

    16. RCRyder Carroll1:11:38

        ... to create different things.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:11:39

        Yeah.

    18. RCRyder Carroll1:11:39

        And then there's also, you know, this, this way of quickly seeing what the grid of the page is, so you can-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:11:44

        Yeah

    20. RCRyder Carroll1:11:44

        ... create any tool you want inside. And the thinnest tool pack ever, so all these, like, little stickers to help you annotate your pages or actually take the stickers and put them in things outside of your notebook.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:11:56

        Yeah.

    22. RCRyder Carroll1:11:56

        As I said, like, most of the bullet journal work happens outside of your notebook. So the lightning bolt, for example, is for you to remember an intention that you set. Like, maybe it's to brush your teeth more often, so you just put the lightning bolt on your mirror. You know, it's something that you-

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:12:10

        Oh, that's clever.

    24. RCRyder Carroll1:12:11

        Yeah. And just put it wherever you want. Every time you see it, it triggers a, uh, behavior.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:12:17

        Nice. What's the... What are the circles for?

    26. RCRyder Carroll1:12:19

        Same thing. It's just like if you don't like lightning bolts, you can do that. Or you can highlight things inside your notebook that are super important.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:12:26

        That's so nice.

    28. RCRyder Carroll1:12:27

        So yeah, that has a detachable notebook, so you can actually learn about it while you have the notebook open.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:12:34

        Wow.

    30. RCRyder Carroll1:12:34

        So that's a guide.
14. 1:19:13 – 1:24:54

    How did you feel about the kickstarter blowing up?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:19:13

       you launched the Kickstarter.

    2. RCRyder Carroll1:19:14

       Mm-hmm

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:19:14

       What happens next? Like, how were, how were you feeling when it was blowing up? Like, what was going through your mind?

    4. RCRyder Carroll1:19:19

       [laughs] It was a very strange time in my life because I had just started a new job with a digital agency, like, the week before I launched the Kickstarter, which was very unintentional. [laughs] It just kinda became that. It, it happened that way. And so I launched the Kickstarter, and I didn't expect much, but it became, like, this whole media sensation in itself because it was still in the early days of Kickstarter-

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:19:43

       Yeah

    6. RCRyder Carroll1:19:43

       ... and it blew up. And then I had to manage the Kickstarter.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:19:47

       Ooh, yeah

    8. RCRyder Carroll1:19:47

       It was only-

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:19:48

       How was that? [laughs]

    10. RCRyder Carroll1:19:49

        That was a nightmare. That was an absolute nightmare

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:19:50

        Oh, October 2015. I've just brought up the Kickstarter.

    12. RCRyder Carroll1:19:54

        Yeah, it was, um... You should have a team to help you with a Kickstarter because ru- having a full-time job and running a Kickstarter, especially when you're trying to ship things internationally, is, like, a bad idea. But, uh, you know, after I got over that, eventually I had to figure out what was more important to me, like, this incredible career that I had been working so hard on. I loved my job. I, like, was doing everything I wanted to do, or focus on this kind of side gig. And eventually, I came to the conclusion that the, the way that I can serve people best is to shepherd this methodology that I never dreamed would've helped other people, but it did, and I got countless letters about how it helped different people. And if I would only... If I could only be a nexus point to introduce it to other people and see how it helped them, then that would be far more meaningful than anything else that I had worked on. So the choice became pretty easy eventually.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:20:54

        So you quit the job-

    14. RCRyder Carroll1:20:55

        Yeah

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:20:55

        ... and went full time on this?

    16. RCRyder Carroll1:20:56

        Yeah.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:20:59

        How did you know it was gonna make enough money to go full time on this? 'Cause b- because for, like, the Kickstarter, like, $79,000 pledged.

    18. RCRyder Carroll1:21:06

        Mm.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:21:06

        Presumably, you could've made more working at an agency-

    20. RCRyder Carroll1:21:09

        Oh, yeah

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:21:09

        ... in New York. [laughs]

    22. RCRyder Carroll1:21:10

        I made way more money-

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:21:10

        Yeah. [laughs] so

    24. RCRyder Carroll1:21:11

        ... at my job. Well, um, I didn't. I didn't. Uh, for me, it was a gamble. It was a risk. I had a very large community at the time, and the business was doing all right, but I didn't mind living on less if I could wake up and really care about what I did all the time, and I did. So for a little while, like, that was a big thing, but then came the book deal.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:21:39

        Yeah.

    26. RCRyder Carroll1:21:39

        So I made the choice. I was like, "Okay, I gotta transition because I'm not doing really well on Bullet Journal. I'm not doing really well at my job," 'cause I was so torn, and that's exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to get across, being intentional about the choices you make. So I was like, "Okay, I gotta practice what I preach here." It's like, am I gonna do this career that's really comfortable and exciting, or am I gonna do this thing that's super scary and I don't know what's gonna happen? And I was like, well, how... What is, what is a core value? And it's service. For me, service is just a core driving principle, and this is the thing that aligns with that. So it became pretty obvious when I sat down and took the time, and then I was really lucky that a book deal came along, and that helped. [laughs] That's when I started writing the book.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:22:22

        Hmm.

    28. RCRyder Carroll1:22:23

        So-

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:22:23

        So you d- So you, so you got the partnership with Leuchtturm around 2014, 2015-ish?

    30. RCRyder Carroll1:22:27

        2014, before the... The, uh, l- So the partnership kinda developed throughout the Kickstarter 'cause at first it was limited to, like, 1,000 notebooks. Like, that was the partnership. It was a quick collaboration, and then both of us saw that there was a real demand for it. So that quickly became the partnership that you see today, and working with them has been absolutely delightful. They make it possible. I couldn't possibly do this by myself. Then it was just me for the longest time. And then I just kept on focusing on creating more content-
15. 1:24:54 – 1:33:39

    The writing and design process

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:24:54

       What does that process look like?

    2. RCRyder Carroll1:24:55

       Which part?

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:24:56

       The, the book deal getting process.

    4. RCRyder Carroll1:24:58

       [laughs] I mean, it was a really wild ride. Um, bullet journal, I was really, I was really blessed with a lot of attention for this thing, right? And I didn't really know what to do with it, and eventually agents started reaching out to me. It's like, "Have you thought about a book?" And that's not something that happens to a lot of people. And I'm like, "I have, but I don't know if I need an agent or something like that." And then all of a sudden publishing companies start reaching out to me, and then I start going into publishing companies, and they're like, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, here's a deal or here's something else." I'm like, "I need an agent." [laughs]

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:25:33

       Yeah. [laughs]

    6. RCRyder Carroll1:25:33

       Like, I don't know if this is a good deal.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:25:35

       Yeah.

    8. RCRyder Carroll1:25:35

       I don't know what I'm getting into. And it was, like, the first time where it's like, I really need help because for me, what was most important about the book is that it could serve as many people as possible. Like, that was it. Like, I wanted to create something that would help. That was it. That was the goal.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:25:48

       Mm-hmm.

    10. RCRyder Carroll1:25:48

        It's like write the best book you can to help as many people as possible, and then that became the guiding rule for all of this stuff. Like, it wasn't about being a bestseller. It wasn't about anything else. Like, create the best tool you possibly can.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:25:59

        Just on that note.

    12. RCRyder Carroll1:26:00

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:26:01

        That seems awfully altruistic. I, I fi- I find that with, with my own motivation, they're often muddied with a bit of, yeah, I wanna help people, but like, oh, being a bestseller would be cool. Like, what, what was that-

    14. RCRyder Carroll1:26:12

        You know

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:26:12

        ... balancing the, the selfish motives with the service motives, I guess, for you?

    16. RCRyder Carroll1:26:16

        Well, I mean, look, of course I would have to be able to feed myself in the process, so it wasn't... But the bestseller thing, I, you know... My father's an author, so I grew up around, like, the whole idea of bestsellers and books and everything like that, and it, it, to me, it always seemed really dangerous to focus on something that's so out of your control.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:26:39

        Yeah.

    18. RCRyder Carroll1:26:41

        So that's something that I kind of put out of my mind because it's, it's what do I do with the bestseller part?

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:26:46

        Mm-hmm.

    20. RCRyder Carroll1:26:47

        Like, what, what does that mean, you know?

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:26:48

        It's like the six-pack thing.

    22. RCRyder Carroll1:26:49

        Yeah.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:26:49

        You bought six-packs, and now what? [laughs]

    24. RCRyder Carroll1:26:51

        Yeah.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:26:51

        Like, what's the underlying thing that's trying to serve?

    26. RCRyder Carroll1:26:53

        Right. You know, like, would it be nice? Absolutely. I'm not gonna throw it out the window or anything. If it happens, great, but what's... For, to me, just, like, getting to the finish line with writing this book is, it was much more important, and doing it in a way where I could, like, this is the best I can possibly do.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:27:09

        Yeah.

    28. RCRyder Carroll1:27:09

        That was enough. In, in some ways it's not necessarily altruism. It's like setting the bar so low that I can actually do it.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:27:15

        [laughs]

    30. RCRyder Carroll1:27:15

        It's like I just wanna do the best job I possibly can and finish this thing. Like, so, you know, and hopefully it helps people. That's, that's all... If I can do that, then great. [laughs] So it's, it's more about the, maybe more of a survival mindset. Like, I just-
16. 1:33:39 – 1:39:39

    Understanding values and anti values

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:33:39

       Um, we've talked a bit about this idea of values.

    2. RCRyder Carroll1:33:43

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:33:43

       And everyone says this, like, you know, figure out your values and, like, live in alignment with your values and stuff.

    4. RCRyder Carroll1:33:47

       Sure.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:33:48

       I have tried about five dozen different exercises on the internet around how to figure out your values.

    6. RCRyder Carroll1:33:52

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:33:52

       And I'm curious how you approach that.

    8. RCRyder Carroll1:33:54

       Oh.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:33:54

       How, how should one figure out their values? Or how, how do you, how did you go about it?

    10. RCRyder Carroll1:33:58

        I think it's an ongoing process, right? 'Cause your circumstances change. You learn new things, and your values can change-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:34:05

        Yeah

    12. RCRyder Carroll1:34:05

        ... I find. But I think a big part of it is by studying your lived experience. So what have you done that has brought you closer to the life that resonates with you, and what have you done that has brought you further away from that, right?

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:34:18

        Yeah.

    14. RCRyder Carroll1:34:18

        I think a lot of values reveal themselves in the choices that we make and the response we have to the choices that we make. We learn about ourselves after the fact, right? People are always like, "Oh, what are my values?" And they see this list of 50 values and like, "Oh, you know, uh, uh-

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:34:33

        [laughs]

    16. RCRyder Carroll1:34:33

        ... kindness sounds good."

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:34:35

        Yeah.

    18. RCRyder Carroll1:34:36

        Right? But it's like, where did kindness ever have an emotional effect on you? I'm not saying that kindness is a bad value, but is it an actual value of yours? Like, values, I think, are something that are very individual and something that isn't obvious to us a lot of the time. But by studying our lived experience, they can reveal themselves. You know, some people think power is a value, and it's like, is power a value or do you value control? And is that actual a value, or is that some kind of coping mechanism? Does that make sense? It's, it's-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:35:05

        So what, what, like, what do you mean by value? Like, but like most people would probably say that, "Yeah, I, I value kindness. I value honesty, integrity and stuff."

    20. RCRyder Carroll1:35:14

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:35:15

        Are we th- talking, like, what are moments in your life where you felt the most m- m- you, like you were doing something meaningful and trying to get stuff out of that or-

    22. RCRyder Carroll1:35:24

        To me-

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:35:25

        Yeah

    24. RCRyder Carroll1:35:25

        ... it's, I think it's both sides of the spectrum. It's figuring out what moments in your life have felt more m- most meaningful or more meaningful or meaningful at all. It doesn't ne- need to be most meaningful.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:35:36

        Yeah.

    26. RCRyder Carroll1:35:36

        And what behavior or value supported that experience. That, to me, is really interesting. Like, what about this felt meaningful to you?

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:35:46

        Yep.

    28. RCRyder Carroll1:35:47

        And then you have the flip side of that, where you feel terrible about something and, like, what value was not being met? Or what anti-value, if you will, are you-

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:35:55

        Ooh

    30. RCRyder Carroll1:35:55

        ... you know, now embodying, right? Is it jealousy? Is it anger? Is it, you know, pettiness? That kind of thing. Okay, so what's the opposite of that?
17. 1:39:39 – 1:49:16

    How do you feel about 3-10 year planning?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:39:39

       what's your take on three-year planning, five-year planning, ten-year planning, one-year planning? Like, having heard all the zillions of stories from people, like, what have you seen, I guess, in your life and in the lives of people who've, who've reached out to you with stories? What's, what's a good amount of planning versus spontaneity to have?

    2. RCRyder Carroll1:39:58

       Yeah, I mean, for me, [sighs] I guess I approach this whole thing differently because for me it's more about being in the present, right? And trying to develop different goals that are, for me, experiments. They're plays, if you will. It's like, okay, what am I gonna do now that helps me embody this value in some way? And a five-year plan doesn't really work that way because I know it's gonna change. That being said, kind of having an i- idea of where I wanna head. Like, okay, so I think the best way I can talk about this is that I, I have this analogy that goals are like lighthouses.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:40:36

       Oh.

    4. RCRyder Carroll1:40:36

       Right?

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:40:37

       Tell me more.

    6. RCRyder Carroll1:40:37

       Sure. So a lot of times when I heard about goals in the past, it's like, here is your target.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:40:45

       Yeah.

    8. RCRyder Carroll1:40:45

       Right? And that's how I operated, and it was always disappointing and confusing, at least for me. And the reason why is when you set a goal, you're setting it at the furthest distance away from that reality. From day one is the furthest distance you'll ever be away from that goal, so it means you don't know anything about that experience. You don't know anything about that reality. And every day as you get closer to that goal, it becomes clearer and it becomes more real. And oftentimes you change your mind. You're like, "Oh, wait, this is not what I actually want," or you learn something new, it's actually over here. So I think that rather it being the final destination, it's like a lighthouse. And from what I understand of lighthouses, I'm not a lighthouse expert, but let's just pl- go with it for now. You never go to the lighthouse, right? The lighthouse stands at a place that's actually really hazardous. It's there to make sure that ships don't go there, but ships can also use it to navigate. And I think that that's a really interesting way of thinking about your goals because it's-- you're setting some destination for you to learn about something along the way. And if you think about it as a lighthouse, then going off course or, you know, changing course, if you will, is part of it, right? And you just keep on setting different lighthouse goals. Like, hey, it's like, I wanna be this kind of doctor, and then you get halfway through and you're like, "Oh, actually no, it's like this specialty or this thing," or actually something completely different that I didn't know about at the beginning of the journey. So I like lighthouses. To come back to the year-long, five-year goals, I think it's the same kind of thing. If you believe in something strongly and it's gonna take you five years, start, right? And then change your mind when you-- when it becomes more real. I think having- ... objectives is really important, right? But I also think abandoning the objectives based on reality is just as important, [chuckles] if that makes sense.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:42:36

       Yeah.

    10. RCRyder Carroll1:42:36

        Like when, when a theory starts becoming very real through your lived experience, it's, it's... And then resetting along the way. I don't know, for me, everything is a lot more organic than, than setting five-year goals. Like, sometimes I wanna do something, I'm like, "Hmm, that's gonna take five years. Let's start and see what happens." And then I'm not, like, doggedly pursuing this thing for five years, because I've never been in a situation where five years later I'm the same person. That just hasn't happened for me. It's good to have the direction so I don't get totally lost, right?

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:43:08

        Yeah.

    12. RCRyder Carroll1:43:08

        Like a lighthouse. But along the way, I'm just a completely different person.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:43:13

        That's a really great way of thinking about goals. I love it.

    14. RCRyder Carroll1:43:15

        [laughs]

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:43:15

        That's fantastic. Yeah, I think there's a lot of, um, almost moralizing around this, around how it is a morally good thing for you to stick to the goal that you set, and, like, if you move the goalpost, that's, like, considered a bad thing rather than a good thing that you move the goalpost. And often people will... Like, I get, I get this criticism from my mum quite a lot. They're like, "Hey, so you know that time you were taking those exams to do residency in the US? Like, what happened to that?" And I'm like, "Why'd you move the goalpo-" And she's like, "Yeah, you, you know, you moved the goalpost." And I'm like, "Yeah, exactly. I started doing the thing, realized that that's not in fact the person I wanna be, and changed my mind." And I feel like this is probably a good thing rather than a bad thing. But I guess it's, it's that balance between being a quitter versus being someone who changed their mind on a goal as they got more data. How, how, how do you think about that balance?

    16. RCRyder Carroll1:44:03

        Sure. Yeah, and, and there's, there's no ultimate answer to that as well. I feel like one easy way to define the difference or the distinction there is that you continue making progress towards something, right? Rather than, like, this target, and you're like, "Okay, it's over here," and you continue to work, and, like, it's gonna take two months, it's gonna take... Like, the book that I started to write and the book that I handed off are completely different things.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:44:26

        Yeah.

    18. RCRyder Carroll1:44:26

        Right? I did the work, it took the time-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:44:29

        Yeah

    20. RCRyder Carroll1:44:29

        ... but the goal and the destination were very different from one another, if that makes sense. And then there's just giving up, sure, and I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing either. Um, there's a lot of nuance here that [chuckles] I can't really, like, cover, but there's one thing where it's like you just don't believe in this anymore, and that's okay, you know?

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:44:51

        Yeah.

    22. RCRyder Carroll1:44:51

        And sometimes you don't beli- I mean, don't get me wrong, I didn't believe in my book on multiple days in those years, right? It's like, "Why am I doing this?" Like, I got no business doing this, all these things. But it would go away, and there, there's a season for that. But if, like, you truly just don't understand why you're doing something anymore, you know, then quitting is absolutely okay, you know? And we have such limited time here. I think it's understanding why you're quitting specifically that's important. What about this isn't working for me? And oftentimes, like, it not meaning anything to you anymore now that you realize what the truth about this goal is, is really important, you know? It's, it's, um, it's a process, and a lot of times we set goals that actually s- seem quite pointless halfway through. You're like, "Wait a second." Not because it's hard. The hardness shouldn't be the determining factor. It's kind of like, I don't know what value this is adding to my life. And in case, like, you know, it's, it's... Is this gonna make me a, a better partner, a better teacher, a better whatever? Like, you're halfway through. Do you feel that way? You know, the reality's starting to set in, you know? And if the answer is no-

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:46:05

        Yeah

    24. RCRyder Carroll1:46:05

        ... ongoingly, then I think that's a pretty good indication that it might not be worth pursuing.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:46:10

        Yeah. So one of the things we did this time last year, actually, when we first moved into the studio was, you know, worked with a business coach, and he talked about kind of making a sort of three-year, three-year picture, three-year plan-

    26. RCRyder Carroll1:46:21

        Mm-hmm

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:46:21

        ... kind of thing. And I was like, "Oh, come on, like, three years, social media space, things change a lot." And he was like, "Ah, you know, that's fine, but it's useful to think at this, at this stage, what do you just, like, imagine that three-year picture to be?"

    28. RCRyder Carroll1:46:32

        Mm-hmm.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:46:33

        "Because then we can start working towards that and see what happens." And at the time I was like, "Okay, three years from now, wanna be doing, I don't know, 10 million revenue, wanna be do- a team of 40 people, like, physical location in London, like, multiple studios where we can, like, bring our YouTuber Academy students in and rent them out and stuff." And we were like, "All right, cool. Let's start working towards that thing, that, that, that kind of picture." And within probably about six or so months, I started feeling, "Hmm, that picture no longer feels great. Like, I actually don't wanna have a team of 50 people and be worrying about revenue numbers and be trying to rent studio space to people. That's like... That seem- seems like the worst thing in the world." Okay. Uh, and then that vision changed, and it became much more about, like, actually it'll be quite nice to be able to focus on doing things I actually enjoy, which is reading, writing, and teaching, without having to worry about managing a team and all that kind of stuff.

    30. RCRyder Carroll1:47:22

        Mm-hmm.
18. 1:49:16 – 1:52:34

    The bullet journal app

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:49:17

       changing gears a bit.

    2. RCRyder Carroll1:49:17

       Sure.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:49:18

       W- the Bullet Journal has an app. What's, what's the deal with that?

    4. RCRyder Carroll1:49:23

       Sure. Um, so for me, people always ask me, like, digital or analog? And I'm really agnostic to this. It's about the, finding the best tool for the job. When it comes to BuJo, I find that a notebook, at least to me and many, is really helpful because it helps you go offline. But it also has limitations that are unnecessary, right? Like, a notebook's not gonna remind you to check in with it.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:49:44

       Yeah.

    6. RCRyder Carroll1:49:44

       And technology's really good like that. And having been a UX designer and designing apps all my life, like, I really enjoy doing that as well. I'm like, "Huh, how can I bridge the digital analog in-

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:49:53

       Yeah

    8. RCRyder Carroll1:49:53

       ... different ways?" And the app is like that. It sets reminders. It helps you track how often you've reflected to keep you honest about it. It gives you different quotes. It allows you to take pictures of your notebook, so you can have-

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:50:05

       Yeah

    10. RCRyder Carroll1:50:05

        ... a digital backup. It, you know, all these tools that can be really helpful to people. You don't need it. I see all of the products that I make as accessories to the methodology, you know? But, uh, yeah, I, I try to fill my own gaps in my productivity system. Like, okay, I actually wanna take a picture of this to send it to somebody.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:50:23

        Yeah.

    12. RCRyder Carroll1:50:23

        I wanna have a backup of it.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:50:24

        Hmm.

    14. RCRyder Carroll1:50:24

        Like, I lost a lot of my notebooks in a flood early on, so like, I, I... That's a real thing.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:50:30

        Yeah.

    16. RCRyder Carroll1:50:31

        So the app does that kind of thing. It's, it's-

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:50:32

        Yeah

    18. RCRyder Carroll1:50:32

        ... doesn't replace the notebook. It's an extension of. That's why it's called the companion app.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:50:36

        Yeah. Yeah, no, I was just looking up on the, on the App Store. Um-

    20. RCRyder Carroll1:50:39

        Plus it's also a nexus for information. I mean, one thing, again, I'm really blessed that Bullet Journal has blown up, but it's gotten so big that people really kind of lose the si- lose the signal and the noise. And so the app for me is also a nexus. Like, here are all the articles, you know, here's how you can begin, all that stuff in your pocket, and it's easy. You know, for like three bucks or something-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:51:04

        Yeah

    22. RCRyder Carroll1:51:04

        ... it's, it's, it's a good place to start. Just being intentional about how the information is surfaced.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:51:11

        I'm curious. Like, one, one question I've been asking a few guests is, is that, um, let's say you won the lottery-

    24. RCRyder Carroll1:51:19

        Mm-hmm

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:51:19

        ... and you don't have to worry about money ever again, and you gotta do something with your time. How different does that look compared to what you're doing now with your time?

    26. RCRyder Carroll1:51:33

        Does this basically just mean that I don't have to work if I don't want to-

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:51:36

        Yeah

    28. RCRyder Carroll1:51:36

        ... or is it what do I do with my resources?

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:51:38

        Uh, basically you don't have to work if you don't want to.

    30. RCRyder Carroll1:51:39

        Okay.
19. 1:52:34 – 1:55:26

    The future of the bullet journal

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:52:34

       Bullet Journal evolve from here?

    2. RCRyder Carroll1:52:35

       Yeah.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:52:35

       I mean, you've got the notebooks, you've got the method, like, you've got the app, you've got the course, the university. Like, w- what else is... Like, I'm struggling to see what the future looks like, but presumably you're like, "Oh, there's so much stuff I wanna do," but like...

    4. RCRyder Carroll1:52:48

       Yeah.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:52:48

       Yeah.

    6. RCRyder Carroll1:52:49

       Education. Education. I, I think the biggest challenge that I still face is people are like, "What is it?"

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:52:56

       Yeah.

    8. RCRyder Carroll1:52:56

       Right? And the answer that I used to give people, which I have now understood to be unhelpful, is like, "It's whatever you need it to be." But then you run into the blank page problem, which is you sit down and, like, you wanna create something with a blank page-

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:53:08

       Hmm

    10. RCRyder Carroll1:53:08

        ... and you don't know what to write. So for me, it's about creating educational access points where people can see bullet journaling for students, bullet journaling for doctors, that kind of thing. Showing them how they can implement th- this methodology for their circumstances specifically. That's what I'm interested in creating. I mean, it's, it's an extension of what I was doing before, which is finding people who show you how they use Bullet Journal for their specific use case. So there's that, and also, I mean, learning how to live an intentional life is just... I don't know. It, it's, it's an infinite topic. There's so many ways of approaching it, and it's really exciting to me. So for me, it's, it's, it's, I'm trying to create an infrastructure for me to build the things, to build tools to help people-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:53:51

        Yeah

    12. RCRyder Carroll1:53:51

        ... live an intentional life, and there's just so many ways of going about that, and there's some really interesting projects in the works along those lines. But I think it's education. I feel like education as a company is one of our core focuses, as both a value and as a goal. [laughs]

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:54:08

        Nice. I love it.

    14. RCRyder Carroll1:54:09

        Another thing is I don't know where Bullet Journal will go. Like, there's so many different ways, but we have a community and they teach me all the time. So they'll ask me questions, and they will identify opportunities for us to, like, really lean into and build systems around and all that kind of thing. So I'm really excited to learn [laughs] about what people need and see if we can build something to support that.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:54:32

        Ryder, thank you so much. This has been wonderful.

    16. RCRyder Carroll1:54:34

        Absolutely.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:54:34

        Uh, where can people... Where's the best place for people to learn more about you, about the bullet journal method?

    18. RCRyder Carroll1:54:39

        bulletjournal.com.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:54:41

        Amazing. Nice and easy. And we'll put links to all of the stuff, including the book and my video on the topic and Matt's video on the topic and your website and bulletjournal.com. We'll, all of those links will be in the video description and the show notes wherever people are listening to this.

    20. RCRyder Carroll1:54:53

        Awesome.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:54:53

        Thank you so much for coming on.

    22. RCRyder Carroll1:54:54

        Thanks so much for having me.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:54:56

        All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode. So thanks for watching. Uh, do hit the subscribe button if you aren't already, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

Episode duration: 1:55:27