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Deep Dive with Ali AbdaalDeep Dive with Ali Abdaal

Turning £500 into £350 Million - Oliver Cookson, Founder of MyProtein

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Ali AbdaalhostOliver Cooksonguest
Nov 8, 20211h 36mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 3:40

    Intro

    1. AA

      What, what's that like sitting at a table with someone who's just offered you 35 million quid?

    2. OC

      Weirdly, I think because I... It, it wasn't something like I won the lottery, so one minute I didn't know it was coming, the next minute I did. It- this had been building for many a year. I had this vision when I was eight. I had this vision for the last 10 years of becoming in this position. So it just felt like part of the process. I know that sounds quite strange, but it's, uh... Yeah, it, it wasn't... I didn't go out and buy a new car. I didn't do anything extravagant. It was... I just... It was quite a... It was a surreal moment.

    3. AA

      Hello and welcome to Deep Dive, the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators, and other inspiring people to uncover their journeys towards finding joy and fulfillment at work and in life. My name is Ali, and in each episode, I chat to my guests about the philosophies, strategies, and tools that have helped them along the path to living a life of happiness and meaning. In this week's episode of Deep Dive, I sit down with award-winning British entrepreneur Oliver Cookson. Oliver left school age 16 with just one GCSE and went on to become one of the UK's leading self-made millionaires after he founded the sports nutrition business Myprotein and later sold it in 2011. Earlier this year, Oliver released his book Bootstrap Your Life, where he writes about his experiences launching Myprotein with a £500 overdraft and scaling the company into the number one sports nutrition brand in Europe.

    4. OC

      Looking back then, I was very much in the moment. I was just living in the moment, and obviously, that is the only way to be successful. You hear anyone saying it today-

    5. AA

      Mm

    6. OC

      ... any sports stars. You just take game by game, set by set-

    7. AA

      Yeah

    8. OC

      ... moment by moment.

    9. AA

      In the conversation, we discuss the story of Myprotein from the early days right up until the sale, covering the challenges that come with being an entrepreneur, his mindset, and how we sometimes have to roll with the punches.

    10. OC

      Mental health of an entrepreneur-

    11. AA

      Yeah

    12. OC

      ... is something that gets overlooked, and look, we... Everyone thinks we're all strong and we're all okay and we're making money and all the rest of it. And, you know, sometimes it doesn't work out that way.

    13. AA

      So please feel free to grab a cup of tea and enjoy the conversation. Oliver, welcome to the show. Thank you very much for having us and for inviting us to your place in Monaco.

    14. OC

      Thank you, Ali, and thanks to your team as well. My pleasure.

    15. AA

      Yeah. It's cool, it's cool that we're, we're, we're here for a couple of days.

    16. OC

      Yeah.

    17. AA

      Um, I wanted to ask, what prompted you to move to Monaco?

    18. OC

      Okay. Well, not the obvious question, which every- or answer everyone, uh, everyone says. Look, there's a few different things. A lot of my friends still work 9:00 to 5:00, so to speak, so I was finding myself kicking around at home in England-

    19. AA

      Mm

    20. OC

      ... um, on my own. And also, I just fancy some- I've always wanted to live somewhere abroad where a bit of sun, near the sea. So I did my research, and Monaco was, was top of the list. Look, it's central to Europe. There's obviously business benefits of being here as well, and it's, you know, it's a beautiful climate. It's secure and it's safe.

    21. AA

      Yeah. What, what kind of businesses are you into these days? 'Cause we'll, we'll talk about the story from Myprotein from-

    22. OC

      Yeah

    23. AA

      ... the beginning to the end, but I'm curious, like... 'Cause, 'cause you sold it about seven years ago, was it?

    24. OC

      No, a bit more.

    25. AA

      Oh.

    26. OC

      Yeah, about nine-

    27. AA

      Eight years

    28. OC

      ... nine years ago.

    29. AA

      Oh, yeah.

    30. OC

      Yeah. Maybe a little bit more, actually. But yeah, nine or 10 years ago sold Myprotein, uh, but I was on the H- the board of the HUT Group then, and I also ran another business, um, which is another online business called Monacor. Um, but I subsequently sold that, not for as much as Myprotein. [laughs]

  2. 3:40 – 24:10

    The early days of MyProtein

    1. AA

      it sounded like from, from the early days of what's been going on in, in the book, it sounded like you were very, very involved, like 16-hour days, that whole shebang.

    2. OC

      [laughs]

    3. AA

      What, what was that like in, in the early days for you when, when you were getting this off the ground?

    4. OC

      Yeah, look, it, it, it's, it's not- I know it's a cliché, but it's the actual truth. To actually, to actually start a business and work full-time, which I was doing as a web developer at the time, so I was doing, you know, doing a eight, nine, 10-hour day typically in the, in the working day, plus then building me own website. Building the website 'cause back then it wasn't WordPress, it wasn't Shopify and all these things. So I built the website literally in Notepad with ColdFusion MySQL-

    5. AA

      Old school

    6. OC

      ... HTML.

    7. AA

      [laughs]

    8. OC

      Yeah, so I did it from, literally from the ground up, which was a, you know, which is a big task in itself. Um, completely custom. There's no, no, no frameworks. And then obviously did all of the manufacturing ourselves, or me. [laughs]

    9. AA

      Yeah.

    10. OC

      Did... Literally there wasn't anything in the business we didn't, I didn't do. So, to do a full-time job and that at the same time, it's, it's literally impossible to do it in less than 16 hours days.

    11. AA

      Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. So, like, I, I get a lot of messages from, from students mostly, or people who are newly in jobs, and I think a lot of people these days have this thing of, "I want my job to feel meaningful. I wanna have impact and stuff." And when you're a 21 recent grad in a, in a new job, it's very hard to find a job that's actually meaningful and impactful and stuff like that.

    12. OC

      Absolutely.

    13. AA

      And so there's this idea people have of, "Hey, I'm, I'm gonna quit my job and start a startup." Um, how, how would you advise someone who's like m- maybe someone who's 21, just graduated uni, not really enjoying their job, and has an idea for something whether ab- about whether they should quit their job versus kind of do that, that overlappy thing that you were doing where it's like you've got the job and you're doing your side hustle?

    14. OC

      Well, I can only advise what I did. Otherwise I'd be-

    15. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    16. OC

      [laughs] So look, I, at that age, I didn't have much money. Um, I was- my salary was around 25,000, 30,000 a year, which is, you know, which is obviously great, but we're talking 15 years ago here, so obviously inflation has moved on. Um, and I bought my first house. I was three times my salary, so it was around 90,000 my, my, my first house. So I was... It was as high as you could go back then. I'm not sure where we are today in mortgages, but three times your salary was the loan to value. So, um, so I was a bit, I was a bit s- um, risk averse. So I thought... I believed in the idea, but I was always cautious and I didn't- I do calculated risks. I was 23, so I was certainly not, not, um, not mature. I didn't have any backing from my mother, my father. They worked m- working class jobs. Didn't have any capital to expend. Had no friends, no mentors, no investors. So it was really going out there. So I would advise if I was a student in that position, which typically would be in a similar position, I'd advise just doing a bit of an MVP, a minimal viable product, getting it out there, which is what I did effectively, but before MVP was a thing. Getting it out there. There's tons of useful info out there on MVPs if you Google it. I'm sure you've maybe covered it in the past. Get a, get a test product out there, and you'll know pretty quickly if there is some traction. And if there is, then you can do the considerations of leaving uni, but that's a big, a big consideration.

    17. AA

      Yeah.

    18. OC

      Um, but do something while you're at uni still. You, you know, if you're working 10 hours a day at uni or whatever the hours you did, you do, there's enough hours in a day to do an MVP.

    19. AA

      Hmm. Interesting. So when it came to Myprotein, you tell the story in a really interesting way in the book, um, about how you first had the idea. I wonder if, uh, obviously we'll put a link to the, in, to the book in the video description.

    20. OC

      Thank you.

    21. AA

      But for the people who aren't familiar with the story-

    22. OC

      Sure

    23. AA

      ... how did you have the idea to start a powdered protein brand?

    24. OC

      [laughs] Yeah.

    25. AA

      That's, uh, pretty, it's pretty random.

    26. OC

      [laughs] It is. It is random. However, saying that, it wasn't random for me because I was a user of the products. Obviously not Myprotein, but I was a user of, uh, MaxiMuscle, which was the leading product in, in, in UK at the time.

    27. AA

      Yeah.

    28. OC

      It was a retail product. So, uh, MaxiMuscle was effectively the, the sports nutrition go-to brand, um, in the UK. I-- So rolling back slightly, I was in, I was, um, I was into fitness, um, and I was since I was around 16, 17, and as you progress through the fitn- fitness chain, you then got into the, um, the s- the nutrition side of it. And, and, and again, as part of the nutrition chain, you then find the supplement side, because you can't get enough nutrition from food as you need to to maximize your gains.

    29. AA

      Yeah.

    30. OC

      And I was a bodybuilder, if you like, back then. Not, not as... I, I enjoyed myself on the weekend too much, so I wasn't fully strict. Um, but back then it was, uh... But certainly Monday to Friday, I was very, very anal, if I can say that. Very precise on my, what I trained, on what the weights. And so f- naturally through that, supplements become part and parcel of the everyday life of a bodybuilder. So I was using a, um, Ma- product by MaxiMuscle, a whey protein product. And it was, it was a, just a, a eureka moment, as, as the chapter in the book says. And it's... And I did this systematically with probably 100 plus products before I did it with the protein products. I- it was a positive habit I had where I broke it down and I tried to see if I could do it better. I knew I believed in myself, I believed in, um, my web skills, and I believed I wanted to put... And I believed in the, the web itself. This was 2002, 2003. I believed if I put a product on- online, vertically integrated, it was its own brand, it had the right, uh, economics behind it, I could sell it. I believed in myself to do that. Um, so, so I, I, uh, the positive habit I had was to actually break the product down, and one day I was sat in my, my kitchen, my mom's kitchen actually, and I was making my bedtime shake, I think it was a Thursday night, and I can remember it vividly, and I said, "What is actually whey protein?" And it just sort of came to me 'cause I did it systematically, as I said. Um, and it... I looked on the back of the ingredients and it said whey protein, flavoring, sweetener, um, some other fillers and vitamins and whatnot. And then I, I didn't actually know what whey protein was. Um, I don't know if I was, I'm alone on that, but back then it was actually a byproduct not that many years before, maybe a decade before, that was being thrown away. Um, no pun intended. So whey protein is effectively [laughs]

  3. 24:10 – 29:19

    Motivation

    1. AA

      stuff?

    2. OC

      Ah, that's a good question. And honestly, sat here today, I have no idea how I did it.

    3. AA

      Mm.

    4. OC

      Honestly, I didn't. I think if I would've thought about it, I don't think I would've been able to do it.

    5. AA

      Yeah.

    6. OC

      I was just... I... Looking back then, I was very much in the moment. I was just living in the moment, and obviously, that is the only way to be successful. You hear anyone saying it today-

    7. AA

      Mm

    8. OC

      ... any sports stars. You just take game by game, set by set-

    9. AA

      Yeah

    10. OC

      ... moment by moment. And I, and I did that, and I didn't do it through reading something in a book. I just, I just did it because that's... I had a really burning desire within, um, which was, I think was instilled from my childhood, and I really wanted to be, uh... One of my goals when I was a child was to be a businessman, and I wanted to be a millionaire, and-

    11. AA

      Yeah

    12. OC

      ... I had all of these, you know, aspirational targets. Because I didn't have that when I was younger, so I think that became instilled within me. So once I found this idea and I realized it was working, I w- I didn't wanna let myself down. If I didn't try my absolute hardest to, to, to achieve and I let myself down, I would've... That would be the, that would be a very difficult conversation to have with myself.

    13. AA

      Yeah. When, when, when did you first realize that things, like this idea was working?

    14. OC

      Oof. Well, from day one, we never got on a day le- A day after the first day, we never had a day where we had less orders than the day, day prior.

    15. AA

      Oh.

    16. OC

      So we got orders on the first day, and then the day after we would've got more orders, and it was a completely... It was a linear growth. I think there might've been a couple of drops on, on a Friday, which typically in e-commerce is a less busy day than a M- Sunday or Monday, which are the busiest days for e-commerce typically. But it was certainly, on a five-day rolling average, there was never a five-day before than was, was more busy.

    17. AA

      Oh, interesting. Yeah.

    18. OC

      And probably the, the, the absolute moment was when Danny, his name was, the, the Parcel Force driver, 'cause he used to come round, he used to do the last collection for me always because, because he knew I was working and I had to rush back to get there before the six o'clock, before he went home. And the day when I packed, packaged all the orders up, went down, he goes, "Oliver, I can't fit all your boxes in."

    19. AA

      [laughs]

    20. OC

      Literally, he, he went back to drop all the, his, his, his, his load from previous deliveries or collections, and then came back to my, my unit, filled it up and he couldn't get any more in. We had them in the front seat. We had them all in the back. He said, "I'm gonna have to phone someone else to come and get them." And then that, that was a bit of a, it was a euphoric moment.

    21. AA

      Interesting. So, like, one of the things, um, I've done a lot of r- r- reading in, in, into the research around motivation, um, and what the consensus seems to be is that you kind of start at... Like, people think that you need motivation in order to, in order to do something. But what the research shows, and what I guess all of our personal experience shows, is that you actually start off by doing the thing, and as you start seeing small successes, that fuels the motivation to keep on doing the thing.

    22. OC

      Absolutely.

    23. AA

      And I guess as... if the numbers are continuing to climb... It's the same with a YouTube channel, like, you know, y- you refresh your app, like, eight times a day and you see, "Oh, I've got one more subscriber. Yes." And that fuels the desire to make the next video, and then it's two more, and then it's four more, and then-

    24. OC

      Absolutely

    25. AA

      ... I guess you start to adapt to the thing, and then now suddenly if you're getting 100,000 worth of orders in a day, it feels less good than it did on, on day one. [laughs]

    26. OC

      It do. Unfortunately, humans do d- seem to adapt to the background.

    27. AA

      Yeah.

    28. OC

      They are... We're, we are quite primitive creatures in that way, or, or complex, whichever way you want to look at it. I guess, um, the fulfillment side of it is, is the same as what you just said. So, you know, getting more orders in, in a day was, was fulfilling me and giving me a drive to do more. We, we, we, um, we had... We created our own forum, which was, which was trailblazing back then. No one did a forum on their website. And, you know, that, building that community and hearing the feedback from the community was amazing. Reading the Trustpilot reviews, and back in the early days we were one of the first users of Trustpilot in, in the, in, in the UK. Um, reading the reviews, the positive reviews was great. Launching new products and seeing it sell.

    29. AA

      Yeah.

    30. OC

      'Cause literally in the morning, Ali, I could come up with a products idea. So for example, I don't know, like a random product idea, just a blend of products, like, like a bedtime formula. So I wanted to create a blend of proteins which would m- m- which would slowly digest through the night, stop the catabolic effects of lack of protein in your body. So if you have whey protein, you, it's, it's like, it, it's processed by the body more quickly than a, than a casein, a milk-based protein-

  4. 29:19 – 32:15

    How do you get customers from day one?

    1. AA

      how'd you get customers from day one? [laughs]

    2. OC

      Yeah. It was... Look, it was, uh... The key driver... So Google AdWords was something I really championed in those early days. 2003, '4, it was pretty, pretty new. Um, I think it launched in 2002-

    3. AA

      Mm

    4. OC

      ... around then, maybe earlier. But anyway, I was... But that was something I was super passionate about, and I, I managed the AdWords account. I built it from scratch. I managed it all the way to 2009 when I finally delegated it away.

    5. AA

      [laughs]

    6. OC

      And, you know, I was very proud of that because it was a £2.34 cost per acquisition all the way through, which... And that's without m- without brand in there, so take your brand out, so only Myprotein searches were in there, 'cause we were getting a lot of repeat custom. Um, so the w- the customers for day one was, was that. So we did some marketing on, um, on some other competitors. Um, which is obviously like you're allowed to do. And then all, but the, the, I think the key driver was MuscleTalk, which was a forum for bodybuilders back then.

    7. AA

      Okay.

    8. OC

      I don't, I'm not sure it's still around anymore, but back, this is pre-social media, so this is before Facebook and all the rest of it, which has killed a lot of the-

    9. AA

      Mm

    10. OC

      ... the VBulletin type forums.

    11. AA

      Yeah, the old school forum thing is just not a thing anymore.

    12. OC

      No.

    13. AA

      It's, it's kinda sad in a way-

    14. OC

      It's sad

    15. AA

      ... 'cause those were great communities.

    16. OC

      I loved it.

    17. AA

      Yeah.

    18. OC

      I, yeah, that was, I learned a lot in those forums and, and on IRC as well.

    19. AA

      Yeah.

    20. OC

      Um, but anyway, the, so there was a real strong community of bodybuilders called MuscleTalk. I think it had tens of thousands of, of members. I approached a guy called James, which is one of the co-founders of Huel, actually.

    21. AA

      Oh, cool. [laughs]

    22. OC

      Really cool guy. Really cool guy. Anyway, so I approached him and he, I, I just said to him, "Can I create a sticky post?" A, basically a post at the top and make it... 'Cause in, in, in VBulletin functionality back then, you could create a stick. And no one was doing it then. So I just said, "Can you do that? I'll give you X." And it was a trivial amount of money. And I just said, "New concept. Do some really great offer." I can't remember what it was now. Um, I think it was something for free or it was very cheap. And we were selling basically a w- a, a kilo of whey for a third of the price of the competition.

    23. AA

      Mm.

    24. OC

      And it was better quality. We had the full, um, certificate of analysis and whatnot. So yeah, that was it. I put the thing in there, then the, I put the post on there, and then the, the, we got customers straight away. 'Cause bodybuilders like to be new and do something new and try and get ahead of the curve.

    25. AA

      Mm.

    26. OC

      But once they're in, and once they like the product, they're the best ambassadors out there. They, they're like cyclists in a way, or which are a great community dr- community driver. If a cyclist gets a new product-

    27. AA

      Yeah

    28. OC

      ... I've seen this with Wiggle back in the early days. If they have a great product, they will champion it in, within their community-

    29. AA

      Mm

    30. OC

      ... as like an advocate.

  5. 32:15 – 34:13

    Were you having fun?

    1. AA

      were you having fun?

    2. OC

      Ah. You know what? I... Fun's a subjective word, isn't it? [laughs]

    3. AA

      [laughs]

    4. OC

      I was, I was... Look, at, there was, there was some dark, dark, dark days when I was growing Myprotein. There was, I, I'm not gonna say it, it was all rosy.

    5. AA

      Mm.

    6. OC

      It was the... I was, I probably had one of the best times of my life over, looking back at it. But was there some dark days there? Of course. I think business and life in general is peaks and troughs.

    7. AA

      Mm.

    8. OC

      You know, you've got to realize in those trough-y days that, you know, it, it, the day will end not, not too distant future, and you've got a new day then day after.

    9. AA

      Yeah.

    10. OC

      Um, so there was, there was, there was challenging days, but overall, looking back at it sat here today itself, I would say it was definitely one of the best periods of my life.

    11. AA

      What were the dark days like?

    12. OC

      The dark days were as dark as they come. It was... So certainly later on in the business when I had a, a, you know, a, a large business. Um, you know, we got to leading number one in Europe online.

    13. AA

      Mm.

    14. OC

      We were trading in six countries. We had hundreds of thousands of customers. You know, lots of staff. So when something went Pete Tong, when something really wrong, then all of the pressure was on these two shoulders.

    15. AA

      Yeah.

    16. OC

      Because I didn't, I was still 100% shareholder. I had, didn't have anyone to lean on. Um, I had no mentors, no chairman, et cetera, et cetera. So it was a very, very lonely, very, very lonely space. And yeah, it tested my mental fortitude a lot. And look, there's no pity party here. I, I went in for it. I knew the expectations.

    17. AA

      Yeah.

    18. OC

      Well, I didn't actually, but I do know them now, and I try and champion that now. The mental health of an entrepreneur-

    19. AA

      Yeah

    20. OC

      ... is something that gets overlooked. And look, we, everyone thinks we're all strong and we're all okay, and we're making money, and all the rest of it, and I, you know, sometimes it doesn't work out that way. But I think it is a, it is a lonely place, and there's nothing wrong with, you know, with that being the case, and you've just got to really roll with the punches in those situations.

    21. AA

      Interesting. Yeah, I was listening to your podcast, um, where you were talking

  6. 34:13 – 42:22

    Professionalising businesses

    1. AA

      about hiring and the importance of building a senior management team. And I think around the 2008, 2009 mark-

    2. OC

      Correct

    3. AA

      ... was when you hired your, uh, b- brought people in to professionalize the business.

    4. OC

      Correct.

    5. AA

      Um, this is something that we're going through right now in our, in our business where, like, you know, for the first two years it was just me making YouTube videos, and then there were, like, two, three of us.

    6. OC

      Yeah.

    7. AA

      Um, Angus was one of them, and Christian in Romania was, was another. And now we've got a team of 12 people.

    8. OC

      Oh, wow.

    9. AA

      And we're hiring another, like, eight or so. Um, and at this point, I think a problem that we're having is that we're all very, like, young and inexperienced and just sort of making stuff up as we go along. And a lot of people have said to me is that, "Okay, it sounds like you need to bring someone in to help professionalize this now that you're actually growing." And where I, I would recognize, and I know y- you talked about it in the book and the podcast, my weaknesses. I think, I think my, my personal strengths are in the idea and in the sort of talking to a camera and hopefully being engaging and that kind of stuff.

    10. OC

      Sure.

    11. AA

      But I really suck at, you know, holding people to account and operationalizing and processes and systems-

    12. OC

      Mm

    13. AA

      ... and HR and finance and all that other stuff associated with running a business. What was that like for you to kind of bring in a l- a management team to help professionalize things?

    14. OC

      Yeah. Look, it was, it was a challenge, and it was a challenge, um... So I think the, the story... Look, and it's, y- you've got some, you've got some, uh, interesting times ahead, but very good times. It's gonna be hard work, but these, these, it's certainly the right, absolutely the right course of action. So with, so in around 2008, as you correctly said, I, I started to have thoughts of maybe I should cash in a few of the chips.

    15. AA

      Mm.

    16. OC

      Should sell some of the business or bring in some partners who could help elevate the business in, in certain areas that I was looking for. Um, like European expansion, so VCs or private equity that had that ability. Um, so I had a, I had a very candid conversation, just a, just, just a casual conversation with a local- ... corporate finance house, boutique. And they came in and said, "Look, you've got a phenomenal business. We're making a couple of million pounds," eBay at the time I think. And, um, you know, y- y- you're a brand, you're vertically integrated, it's in the high growth sector, the forecast for the next decade is to grow hugely, and it's surpassed that. Um, the, the... So I... But they said, "There's one problem, Oliver, and it's a big problem. If you get run over by a proverbial bus-

    17. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    18. OC

      ... where does it go? Where does the business go?" And it's obviously, you know, you're in a similar situation, probably more so because you work from the [laughs] camera. But the, um... But it's a bit of a, another eureka moment. I was like, "Okay, you're right, actually. And no one wants to buy a business when there's only one person as a sole breakpoint."

    19. AA

      Mm.

    20. OC

      And also, I, you know, I don't want to be doing everything forever. I need to delegate. And they said to me, "So we'll do that. However, you're not right to groom the business." That's the, the, the word in the, in the industry. So to groom a business is to professionalize it over a year.

    21. AA

      Mm.

    22. OC

      Bring in the senior management team, bring the processes and the proce- procedures in to, to make sure it can run on its own. And they, they r- they threw the old red rag out in front of the bull and they said, "You're not the man for it. You can't do it." And I went, "Okay." Not to them, but they went away, and I went, "Okay, let's try that then."

    23. AA

      [laughs] Yep.

    24. OC

      So I will give myself one year to professionalize the business, and, uh, and that's what I did. So I, I went right down, down to my programming days. I wanted to systemize everything, so everything from printing an order to picking an order to, to every l- to every job within the company, I w- created a process book.

    25. AA

      Mm.

    26. OC

      So if I... It's basically a handbook of how to run the business.

    27. AA

      Yeah.

    28. OC

      Obviously not the creative side, but the functional and the operational side, which is obviously the bit that you're weaker at.

    29. AA

      Yeah.

    30. OC

      And then I, then I looked at myself and I thought, "What are the po- what are the, what are my strengths?" And I'm similar to yourself as well. I'm more creative, entrepreneurial, um, but I have a, I've got a technical side as well, so I was, it was slightly unique in that sense. However, I'm weak, I was weak in finance, and I was probably weaker than I should've been in operations. However, I did do five warehouse moves and create a system.

  7. 42:22 – 55:20

    Selling MyProtein

    1. AA

      So why did you decide you wanted to sell the business?

    2. OC

      Okay.

    3. AA

      How did that come about?

    4. OC

      So that's, you know... So that's a good question, and it's one that's been asked quite a few times. And sitting here... Well, first of all, I'll, I'll roll back. So I, in 2008, I started to have those thoughts. Um, I didn't know what selling a business was really. I just knew I was sat on a valuable business and asset, and all of, all of my value was in this business. I owned 100% of it. I didn't have any other assets whatsoever, maybe a car or maybe a few quid in the bank from dividends. Oh, I did have a... Actually, I did, I did write myself a check. But the absolute material part of my wealth was within that business. So the analogy that I use is if you're on a one-armed bandit machine, a fruit machine-

    5. AA

      Mm

    6. OC

      ... and you keep on spinning that wheel, and you keep on seeing the jackpot go higher and higher and higher and higher, this is risk-averse, I agree. At what point do you press cash out?

    7. AA

      Yeah.

    8. OC

      Um, because look, you know, something dramatic, something really dramatic, even outside of my control could have happened. I know it's being fearful and w- with, with hindsight I should probably not have thought this, but you could have lost it all 'cause it's not, it's not, uh, it's not, um, sensible for any investor to have 100% of their eggs in one basket.

    9. AA

      Yeah.

    10. OC

      You know, that's foolish. So I... My, my actual theory, my plan was to, to not sell the whole business.

    11. AA

      Yeah.

    12. OC

      It was to sell a minority stake.

    13. AA

      Yeah.

    14. OC

      To take some chips off the table, secure mine and my family's future forever, or for the, at least, you know, secure it for, for the long term, and, um, and then get... go with the private equity company and have a second bite at the cherry and really drive the, the European growth. That was the plan when I went into it.

    15. AA

      Okay. That's not what ended up happening.

    16. OC

      That's not what ended up happening. [laughs]

    17. AA

      I hear you got, like, 25 offers or some- or 25 people-

    18. OC

      Yeah

    19. AA

      ... wanting to bid on the business.

    20. OC

      Yeah.

    21. AA

      And then eventually the Hut Group-

    22. OC

      Yes

    23. AA

      ... made, made an offer that you couldn't refuse.

    24. OC

      Yeah. Well, they were one of the more than 25. So there was about 25, maybe even more, 30-plus offers.

    25. AA

      Yeah.

    26. OC

      Some of them, I... They... I worked with a corporate finance, uh, broker, if you like, someone who, who managed that process, and they... You know, some of them didn't even make it off the table, and it was straight in the bin. You know, they might have been low offers or dreamers or whatever it was. And then th- it boiled down to 17 private equity-

    27. AA

      Okay

    28. OC

      ... and there was, like, three or four big trade offers. The Hut did come on later on actually. So Pepsi were one, Nestle were another.

    29. AA

      Oh, okay. [laughs]

    30. OC

      I don't think I've ever said this. I'm not sure I should. [laughs] No, I- I'm sure it's fine. Pepsi one, Nestle the other. There was a couple of other big conglomerates in there as well. Um, they were trade buyers. They wanted to buy 100% of the business. The private equity wanted to do a minority stake, so they might have bought 30% of the business and I would have rolled the re- new equity into NewCo-

  8. 55:20 – 1:04:15

    Wealth, happiness and jealousy

    1. AA

      what... I mean, I was looking at some prices of yachts and stuff, and they're in the tens of millions, so I guess-

    2. OC

      Yeah

    3. AA

      ... that's one thing, but, like, what, what, what's that experience like?

    4. OC

      I think it becomes pretty... I think if it was over a certain amount, it comes to a point where it doesn't really make that much difference.

    5. AA

      Yeah.

    6. OC

      So I... Look, I'm in a very fortunate position, and I'm very, very grateful. I count my blessings every morning without fail-

    7. AA

      Well done

    8. OC

      ... whether I am healthy, I have beau- you know, I've got beautiful people around me, and I've got a lot of money in the bank. [laughs] And you know, I'm very grateful for that. Um, I think that's first and foremost. I think having over a certain amount gives you... The key thing it gives you is freedom and choice of options. Um, you know, like now I could literally decide to go and jump on a plane and go to Barcelona for the weekend or whatever, you know. That... And if you're working in it with, for someone, or you've not got expendable cash, you know, might, might be a bit of a consideration, but now I can do it. Um, so that's the first thing. It, it gives you the choice of being able to help people-

    9. AA

      Mm

    10. OC

      ... which is important to me, around me. It gives you a chance to help people you don't know as well and help people who are less fortunate. So all of these things are great. Um, but one thing it doesn't do is give you happiness.

    11. AA

      Mm.

    12. OC

      I know it's... It h- you know, wealth, and there's definitely no pity party here.

    13. AA

      Yeah, of course.

    14. OC

      But wealth brings a whole raft of its own problems. Um-

    15. AA

      What kind of problems?

    16. OC

      Ooh, God. Jealousy.

    17. AA

      Okay.

    18. OC

      Um, uh, you, you obviously acquire more pr- you know, more things which need more management. Uh, people ex- expectations are raised to a whole new level of, from people from yourself. Your own expectations are raised. You know, you've got this wealth, you sh- you know, you want to be helping people or helping yourself grow the monies more. You don't want to rest on your laurels.

    19. AA

      Hmm.

    20. OC

      It, it, it creates a lot of its own dynamics. Um, and again, no pity party.

    21. AA

      Of course. Yeah.

    22. OC

      I wouldn't want to change anything, but it's, it's not all, "Right, you've got all this money. Life's really happy. It's really easy." It creates a lot of its own stresses and strains.

    23. AA

      There's a, there's a famous, um, study they did about, um, I think it was pe- people who won Wimbledon and also people who won gold medals at the Olympics, and in the aftermath of that, they had a increased, uh, likelihood for, like, mental health problems and stuff. And the theory was that, like, once you've hit the pinnacle, then you've sometimes can feel this sense of, "Oh, crap, what, what do I do now?"

    24. OC

      Absolutely.

    25. AA

      Did you have that at all?

    26. OC

      Yes. Yeah, I did.

    27. AA

      Okay. What was that like? Yeah.

    28. OC

      I had that in 2011 when I sold Myprotein.

    29. AA

      Yeah.

    30. OC

      You could see how much work and, uh, effort I put into Myprotein. Literally blood, sweat, and tears, and I'm not just coining a cliché for a reason. It was everything of m- it was my life.

  9. 1:04:15 – 1:10:01

    Self-Reflection

    1. AA

      w- what does that mean and, like, w- what does that look like practically for you?

    2. OC

      So I think naturally I've always been self-critical.

    3. AA

      Okay.

    4. OC

      Um, I naturally always reflected on things and always looked at how I could do them better, and this wasn't from reading a book, and this is before I knew the word self-reflection. This was just something I did naturally. Um, I don't know. I think it's just the way I, just the way I'm, I'm wired. Everyone's good at certain things. And so I, I self-reflected organically, if I can say that-

    5. AA

      Yeah

    6. OC

      ... um, all the way through Myprotein. I always looked at what I could do, and I always want to continually improve. So w- what's key with me and a real key analogy is, um, some people come to me... A slight tangent, but some people come to me and say, "Oh, well, I've been trying this business for a couple of weeks and it's not working, and I'm gonna give up." And then the best analogy that I can give is, if you get a bucket of water and throw it on some rocks, and throw it on rocks maybe 100 times, nothing's gonna change. Nothing. However, if you get that bucket and throw it on the rocks every two seconds for centuries or millions of years-

    7. AA

      Yeah

    8. OC

      ... it'll erode the rocks. And you know, that's... that, that... With patience, water can erode rocks. With patience and pers- perseverance, you can ch- do anything. So keep doing what you're doing. Do it systematically, do it absolutely with, um, consistency, and you'll achieve your goals for sure. That is absolutely paramount to, to being successful. It's a cornerstone.

    9. AA

      Mm.

    10. OC

      It's a slight tangent. I just went off on one with the... But in terms of self-reflection, that's what I saw. I saw when, when I continually did something time and time again, even if you can't see it, then you will start to chip away at the rocks, chip away at your goals, chip away at your, your aspirations. So the, the, um... So I actually really look... So I did that all the way through Myprotein. That was one of the things I saw. How could I do that better? Always ask yourself the awkward questions. Um, so be, be self, be self-critical. So if I say, "Why didn't I do that? Okay, I can do it the best this next time." And be reasonably unreasonable with yourself.

    11. AA

      Okay.

    12. OC

      Be reasonably unreasonable.

    13. AA

      What do you mean?

    14. OC

      So don't be not fair with yourself or don't be nice with yourself. Be a little bit unreasonable. Be reasonably unreasonable.

    15. AA

      Okay.

    16. OC

      Yeah. So just beat yourself up a little bit, not too much, and just say, "Okay, I did this. I could do better next time." Ma- make yourself feel... do better. Challenge yourself. Then, then in, in... You know, if you can't, if you can't challenge yourself and make yourself proud of what you're trying to strive for, who can you do it for? You know? I think it's got to start from within. So in terms of the self-reflection, so that's one side, the self-critical side.

    17. AA

      Yeah.

    18. OC

      Then on the flip, give yourself a pat on the back. If you've done something and you've done something well- Sit down and give yourself a pat on the back. And that's not... It's a balance between being overly confident and overly critical.

    19. AA

      Yeah.

    20. OC

      But get that balance right, and that's self-reflection in a nutshell. So I actually reflected... I think I really r- realized I was reflecting, and I went deeper into the self-reflection process when I thought of the book. So when I started to think around the book, I then started to think of different stories within the book and all the different limbs to the book, and how that could look, the book, then I really started to go, "Oh, wow, okay. This is..." And there's loads of reasons why I did the book, but that was when I put pen to paper, metaphorically speaking-

    21. AA

      Yep. [laughs]

    22. OC

      [laughs] Then I actually went just a whole new level of deepness within myself and within the self-reflection process, and it made me a lot better in terms of how I can improve myself. Look, it is... I'm far from the finished article, but it really did help. And I would absolutely recommend for anyone, even if they don't have a, what's perceived as a m- a, you know, a, um, a, a story like this, even if they just lived a normal life, inverted commas-

    23. AA

      Yeah

    24. OC

      ... do a, write a memoir. Maybe you don't need to get it published, but write a memoir. Reflect on your period of, of your life over the, over the period of time. You will, you absolutely guarantee you will find things which will make the next period of your life better.

    25. AA

      Do you have any, any, any examples of sort of what did you realize about yourself through the self-reflective process that came about through writing the book?

    26. OC

      So I... Good question. Um, I think there was, there was pluses and minuses.

    27. AA

      Mm.

    28. OC

      Um, so, uh, if you want specific examples, I think I did understand that I was starting on a plus. I did understand that I did do well. Um, I did really, really... On, on some of the things, I can't remember ex- exact examples, maybe on some management leadership sides of things, maybe on product development, on the website development, maybe I did really excel within my own capabilities there, and I should pat myself on the back and maybe try and improve myself in terms of even go even better on certain areas.

    29. AA

      Okay.

    30. OC

      So on that project now I'm starting to do a bit of coding again.

  10. 1:10:01 – 1:16:46

    Writing 'Bootstrap Your Life'

    1. AA

      What was the process of writing the book?

    2. OC

      Uh, so the process of writing the book. So the first of all, I wanted to... I think the, I think the initial process was coming up with the reasons why I wanted to write the book.

    3. AA

      Yeah.

    4. OC

      If, if the reasons weren't profound enough for me to do it, I know I wouldn't complete it.

    5. AA

      Yeah.

    6. OC

      And then once I've started on that journey of doing it, I don't want to stop. So I think the, the, the reasons that I wrote it, one, were, um... And it was a multitude of reasons. One was to... I've got a proce- and in no particular order.

    7. AA

      Yeah.

    8. OC

      One was to try and give back.

    9. AA

      Okay.

    10. OC

      I believe it's a, an inspiring story, and hopefully it's a helpful story to, to budding entrepreneurs or, or whatever. So I wanted to give back. As part of the podcast, as part of some of the other initiatives that I'm doing in the background, I wanted to give back to the next gen of entrepreneurs. And hopefully if it can inspire one person, amazing. Um, it has already inspired numbers of people, um, from emails I've had and whatnot.

    11. AA

      Yeah.

    12. OC

      So, so that, that was first thing. Secondly, I'm, um... Part of my deep-thinking, self-reflection process-

    13. AA

      Yeah

    14. OC

      ... I want to... I, I sort of thought about my, my... the people who stood behind us. So, you know, we're all here today drinking this beautiful water and from a tap and from... We're drink- we- we're eating fruits for our breakfast, which have come from far-flung lands, you know, and that's all... We have the internet, we have all of this infrastructure in place, and it's from all the people who stood behind us, you know? So we should be super grateful for all of our ancestors-

    15. AA

      Yeah

    16. OC

      ... who've, who've laid the tracks for where we are today. So I think we have to all be grateful for that and be, you know, be reflective on that. But then it, then it spun on to the future, so the people who stand in front of us. We should try and leave our legacy, our personal legacy, or the world in a better way than where we are today. So I wanted to... By, by writing this book, I hopefully can then inspire some of my ancestors in 100, 200 years maybe-

    17. AA

      Yeah

    18. OC

      ... of where, where this d- where this happened. You know, what, what, what happened in that family tree. I'd love to read about my ancestors. Um, so that was, that's... I think that was a, an important point. And then it was also, finally, it was a bit of a memoir for me personally, 'cause I, my mum actually said to me, told me about a story that in the, in the days of building Myprotein, which is many, and I forgot com- I literally couldn't remember it, or could not remember it. And I was like, "Wow, that's, that's concerning. I'm not getting any younger. My memory's gonna start going only one way. I need to write this down for my own personal memoir, um, and also for my children, my children's children." You know, I put a lot of hours in and maybe not been as, as, as done as many hours with the children as I would've done if I didn't have a business. So I want to, you know, want them to, want them to read it when they're older and-

    19. AA

      Yeah

    20. OC

      ... understand Daddy was doing something. [laughs]

    21. AA

      Yeah. [laughs] So those were your reasons for writing the book.

    22. OC

      Yeah. Oh, sorry. Yeah.

    23. AA

      Um, and then what, what comes next? So, like, I'm, I'm writing a book at the moment-

    24. OC

      Oh, okay

    25. AA

      ... but it's, it's like a... It's not, it's not a memoir. It's like a guide on productivity and stuff.

    26. OC

      Right.

    27. AA

      So the process is, I guess, quite different to writing a memoir. So I'm curious about what-

    28. OC

      Yeah

    29. AA

      ... the process for that is.

    30. OC

      So I, I then... So I had a, I had some solid reasons to do it.

  11. 1:16:46 – 1:21:36

    Mindset Mistakes

    1. AA

      benefit from the stuff around mindset and keeping going and finding your USP and all, all, all that kind of stuff.

    2. OC

      Yes.

    3. AA

      Um-

    4. OC

      I think mindset is something that I, I, I believe I've got quite a... And look, I, I certainly don't profess to be an expert and write a book on it, but I certainly can write a few chapters on mindset. It's something that I think's so important with, with life, but als- bootstrapping essentially, but for certainly in, in business as well. Um, so yeah, I think mindset is so key. But there's, there's tons of good books out there.

    5. AA

      Yeah. What are the, what are the mistakes that you see other entrepreneurs make around the mindset thing or traps that people can fall into quite easily?

    6. OC

      Yeah. Just mindsets. I'd say... Oh, I think people like to overthink, and it's not... Look, it's an easy thing to do. Procrastination is, is something that most people do. But I just think you need to recognize when you need to just stop and just close that thought off and move on to the next one 'cause, you know, your brain is, is like, you know... Another analogy is like, uh, like your broadband. It's only got so much bandwidth.

    7. AA

      Yeah.

    8. OC

      You know, if you, if you keep on thinking about all this stuff here, you know, you, you, you're sort of reducing your, your bandwidth by half or whatever it may be. So, you know, free that bit up, and then you've got full bandwidth to, to attack the next problem. The, the, the other thing is, which is on the same sort of premise, is, is fear. Fear is a liar. I've coined that one a few times.

    9. AA

      Yeah. Yeah, you mentioned that a few times in the book.

    10. OC

      [laughs]

    11. AA

      What does, what does that mean?

    12. OC

      So fear is a liar. Look, it's... If you've got a fearful thought, thought, then it is lying. That's the bottom line.

    13. AA

      Mm.

    14. OC

      So basically, don't believe what fear... Never believe a fearful thought. Don't believe in fear. So easier said than done, but if you, for example, think, "Okay," just as a random example, "I'm going to start a business, but what if this happens?"

    15. AA

      Yeah.

    16. OC

      "Maybe this will happen. Can I do that? Am I capable of doing this? What does that person think? What happens if I fail?" All of those are fearful points. They're all come from fear.

    17. AA

      Yeah.

    18. OC

      And there's never... I, I never had known anything in life which is ex- outside of fortune where fear is the right instigator of a decision. No fearful thought is the right decision.

    19. AA

      Interesting.

    20. OC

      So the whole point is, you know, you don't... You've got to ignore those fearful thoughts. That doesn't mean go and jump off that balcony and you're gonna fly 'cause you're not fearful of it. You've got to have some rationale there. There's got to be some constraints of, you know, being sensible. But the... In terms of, um, in terms of what, how that can inhi- te- in terms of how that can improve mindset. So if you're thinking something, "Oh, can I do this?" Or, "What happens if I fail?" All of these fearful things. Recognize it like a cloud in the sky, and let it pass. Acknowledge it, recognize it, let it go. It's gone. Then, then you're free, and then your-

    21. AA

      Yeah

    22. OC

      ... then your, then your, then your bandwidth is free, free. It's easier said than done. I completely respect that. It takes a lot of training. It took a, took a lot of time for me to learn to be able to do that, and sometimes I can't. Believe me, there's many a night I lie in bed and I can't switch off from things. I'm really trying to meditate. I'm really trying to go within. But it doesn't... It's not... Look, I'm not a Buddhist monk by any [laughs] stretch of the imagination, but I can do it a lot of the time. I can do it for 80%.

    23. AA

      Mm-hmm.

    24. OC

      And if people could start just recognizing their fearful thoughts, acknowledging them, and then letting them go, they can give themselves more time to focus on the positive things. Positive habits equal positive results.

    25. AA

      Yeah.

    26. OC

      The end.

    27. AA

      Yeah, I think the fear thing is really inter- Like, uh, I, I find that a lot of, a lot of the things that hold us back, we call things like imposter syndrome and perfectionism and stuff, but really it's just fear.

    28. OC

      Yeah.

    29. AA

      And I've been realizing this over the last, like, year or so, that when I feel like, oh, I'm too much of a perfectionist, therefore I'm not doing this, it's like, no, no, you know, let's call a spade a spade. I'm scared. [laughs]

    30. OC

      Yeah.

  12. 1:21:36 – 1:27:01

    Goals

    1. AA

      these days? Like, what's the... I mean, don't-

    2. OC

      Yeah. There's... The goals are becoming more and more, um, empathetic, more and more personal, more-

    3. AA

      Mm

    4. OC

      ... more feelings based. So I want to... You know, I, I've achieved a lot in business. Do I want to be a billionaire, or do I want to have 100 homes around the hou- 100 w- h- homes around the world? I'm not sure, to be honest. I'm, I feel like I've really, I've, I've really achieved... R- right now I'm just trying to get everything in order so it's structured, so it's professionalized. Again, if I get hit by a proverbial bus, everything's gonna work and run. I'm going to be able to continue my giving journey.

    5. AA

      Yeah.

    6. OC

      I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be able to help people who I want to help, and there's succession planning behind me, in front of me. Um, so, so that's a lot of my bi- my time now is focused on structuring and creating the right structures and processes of, of how to run... 'Cause effectively, where my, my, um, my life now is like a, is like a business. You know, with this, with that level of wealth, not, um, whatever the number is, then it's, you know, it's as big as a medium or even larger business.

    7. AA

      Yeah. But have like a... Is it, like, family offices and that kind of thing?

    8. OC

      Yeah.

    9. AA

      Uh, um-

    10. OC

      That, all that sort of stuff

    11. AA

      ... yeah.

    12. OC

      So, you know, creating all, um, all that structure in place-

    13. AA

      Yeah

    14. OC

      ... um, is, is, is, is where I am. However, a, a massive part of this now is my next part of my life is giving.

    15. AA

      Yeah.

    16. OC

      I want to, I want to give. And, and... But I want... I'm not gonna just go, "Right, here's a load of money. Here's... to everyone." I certainly, you know, don't respond to people who just email me out of the blue, 'cause that's... I, I give to certain charities. I'm a, I'm a patron of Make-A-Wish. Um, I give, I give money to them and do various things with them. An amazing charity. Anyone can help. You know, if any- if you can help a chil- child with, who's got a serious or a terminal condition-

    17. AA

      Mm

    18. OC

      ... make their dreams come true, you know, what... If you can't... If that doesn't give you joy within-

    19. AA

      Yeah

    20. OC

      ... what's gonna give you joy in life?

    21. AA

      Yeah.

    22. OC

      I mean, it's an amazing feeling and, you know, I've helped hundreds of children, and plan to help hundreds more, um, you know, d- do their wish. In fact, last year I... It was, it... I think I helped all the children who had an outstanding wish in Greater Manchester. I did all, every one in one. Obviously, I'd like to help more, and that will happen over time. So that's one, is the Caldwell children, who I'd like to mention, who are, um... John Caldwell's a friend of mine. He helps, uh, children with, with various disabilities. So that's another charity, and I've got various other ones as well. But what I want to really do, Ali, next year, and I've already got the, the, the, the idea in play, is I want to... I created a legacy in charit- uh, a legacy in business in Myprotein.

    23. AA

      Mm.

    24. OC

      Myprotein will be here in hundreds of years. It should be, if it's continues as it is. And I want to create a charitable legacy.

    25. AA

      Okay.

    26. OC

      So I don't want to just create another, uh, another fund or another trust which is, um, which is then just giving my money away. I want to create something where the money that I've got actually create more money-

    27. AA

      Mm

    28. OC

      ... and continually give. When I'm dead, when... You know, I am talking like 100 years, I want something to be, to be there and to be evolving and to be a tangible thing, and actually help forever. I've got an idea. So it's an entrepreneurial charitable idea-

    29. AA

      Okay

    30. OC

      ... um, which is gonna be self-fu- fully self-funded by myself. It's gonna benefit a lot of people of, um, in the disadvantaged communities in, um, in the UK predominantly. Well, no, it's gonna be solely the UK. Predominantly they're gonna focus in Manchester and then pilot it and then roll it out. Um, so yeah, that's, that's gonna take up a lot of my time.

  13. 1:27:01 – 1:29:19

    Routines & Digital Detoxing

    1. OC

      why not?

    2. AA

      What does a standard day in your life look like these days?

    3. OC

      Every day is different.

    4. AA

      Okay.

    5. OC

      Every day is different. If I'm completely honest with you, I want to come up with a more routined day.

    6. AA

      Hmm.

    7. OC

      Um, because I think routine is one of those things that people hate to be in.

    8. AA

      Yeah.

    9. OC

      You know, the rat race in London or the rat race in Manchester, wherever it may be. You know, everyone, when everyone's in that, they get up at 7:00, get on the, get on the train at 8:00, do your job, come back. When you're in that routine, everyone hates it, but when you're out of routine and you don't have a routine, everyone hates that too.

    10. AA

      Yeah. [laughs]

    11. OC

      [laughs]

    12. AA

      There'll be some kind of balance there, right?

    13. OC

      Yeah.

    14. AA

      Yeah.

    15. OC

      So that's... So I'm, I've sort of got a loose routine. So I wake up... I've never been a wa- early waker, by the way, early riser. You know, I've never... B- even when I was building Myprotein and doing these hourly days, I... Right at the start I was, 'cause I was doing two jobs. But once I lost my main job, I was always, I always woke up 8:00, 9:00 o'clock, let... You know, earliest. And now, now I probably wake up at a similar sort of time. I'm not super early waker. I wake up, I read, I read the news. I read, um... I try and read something of value.

    16. AA

      Hmm.

    17. OC

      Before I do anything, I, I realize how grateful I am to be where I am and, and do this, um, sort of ritual, if you like. I use the gym. I do emails. And then I have various functions or work or social activities. So it's pretty loose. One thing I do want to do, and one thing I need to do, and one thing that I'm... One of my goals at the moment is to create a more rigid s- uh, routine for detoxing digitally.

    18. AA

      Oh, okay.

    19. OC

      I need to figure out a routine for my phone.

    20. AA

      Hmm.

    21. OC

      Because right now I have... It's too intr- it's too intrusive. I'm finding I'm getting WhatsApped and I'm replying to it, and it's... I'm getting... I have RSI as it is from the years of, um, really hammering a keyboard. The... But, um, but now it's starting to come back again 'cause I'm using WhatsApp too much. So I think I'm gonna... I need to find a way of... I need to... I'm gonna Google it and research it and find... 'Cause obviously this is a well-trodden path, of actually just sort of disconnecting a little bit from the digital side-

    22. AA

      Yeah

    23. OC

      ... for periods of the day and then having focus hours.

    24. AA

      Okay.

    25. OC

      So yeah, I believe that would help me because it's, it, yeah, creates lots of negative emotions when you're getting stressed on your phone. [laughs]

    26. AA

      Yeah, no, naturally. I just wanted to end by... So we've, we've got these 10, like, rapid-fire questions that we ask-

    27. OC

      Oh, wow

    28. AA

      ... every guest at the end. Um, the, the,

  14. 1:29:19 – 1:36:52

    Rapid Fire Questions

    1. AA

      the questions are quick, but the answers don't have to be quick, so-

    2. OC

      Okay

    3. AA

      ... it's, it's just a, in a, in a random order.

    4. OC

      Okay.

    5. AA

      Um, so-

    6. OC

      I'm sat down. [laughs]

    7. AA

      [laughs] Perfect. Um, so number one is, what advice would you give to your young- younger self?

    8. OC

      Ooh, that is a punchy question, and one that I would... Now look, and it is absolutely what I said before about the, the patience and, and consistency.

    9. AA

      Yeah.

    10. OC

      Be consistent, be patient, and believe in yourself.

    11. AA

      Nice. Um, who is your favorite musical artist or band?

    12. OC

      Oh, there's so many. Look, I'm, I'm, I'm quite peculiar when it comes to music. I only listen to electronic music. So it could be ambient music, it could be techno. I like everything. I, I like electronic... I'm a el- I'm a, I'm a, I'm an electronics technical geek, really.

    13. AA

      Nice. [laughs]

    14. OC

      So what is my favorite band or music? I guess it's a, an artist. Oh, there's, there, there's, there's too many. Um, uh, you, you, you... They would've... No one would've probably heard them 'cause they're quite b- out there.

    15. AA

      Bit niche, yeah.

    16. OC

      Bit niche.

    17. AA

      What's a good gateway drug that, that, you know, we can listen to? Like, I don't know. L- l-

    18. OC

      A good gateway-

    19. AA

      Yeah

    20. OC

      ... good, great gateway music? It depends on the mood. Like I say, I listen to melodic house or I listen... Look, Jose Padilla, who died earlier this year, for Café del Mar.

    21. AA

      Okay.

    22. OC

      It's something I listen to when I'm working, when I'm relaxing. You can't beat that vibe, that Café del Mar ambient music, down tempo.

    23. AA

      Sure.

    24. OC

      Um, something like... Uh, it's gonna be very obvious, but like as a gateway, like a Solomun or a Black Coffee for a more energetic, more new age house. And then I'll... That'll be enough to keep people going. [laughs]

    25. AA

      [laughs] Fair play. Um, who has had the biggest influence on your career?

    26. OC

      Myself. Uh, just... Yeah. [laughs]

    27. AA

      Yeah. Nice. [laughs] You're your own trump. Um, what's one tip for someone looking for success?

    28. OC

      One tip. One tip. And it... Look, and this is... I made this a cliché now, but it is important. It is important. And no, no other way of saying it. Well, no, there is. And fear is a liar, and it is, it's something I've been coining, but it's so important. The sooner you realize that these fearful thoughts are gonna bring absolutely no positive impact to you, they're not going to serve you-

    29. AA

      Yeah

    30. OC

      ... at all, the more you can focus on the good stuff.

Episode duration: 1:36:52

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