This startup is putting India on the global map of advanced manufacturing | Fabheads | BP2B S2 Ep.9

1. 0:00 – 0:40

   Intro

   1. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj0:00

      at least from my perspective and my experience, it is, uh, that, uh, uh, you keep getting challenges, like, uh, uh, but you need to persevere it through. We are coming in with our own newer, better automated manufacturing process to, in a way, revolutionizing this world. Persevere and be flexible about it, not just be stubborn. You cannot keep doing the same thing and expect some things will change. We felt that we could crack it. We knew that we had the ability from-- in terms of technology, capability, engineering-wise, we knew that we would be able to crack it. The material part, we have cracked, and the critical part of the mission also we have cracked. With that, we were able to go to investors and showcase and able to get the funding.

   2. UHUnknown Host0:37

      Hi, this is Amrit. We are at IIT Madras, my alma mater,

2. 0:40 – 1:15

   Welcome to the Best Place to Build Podcast

   1. UHUnknown Host0:40

      and India's top university for people who like to build. We are here to meet some builders, ask them: What are you building? What does it take to build? And what makes IIT Madras the best place to build? [music] Hello, and welcome to The Best Place to Build Podcast. Today, we are sitting with Dhinesh from a company

3. 1:15 – 2:56

   Introducing Dhinesh Kanagaraj (Founder/CEO) & Fabheads

   1. UHUnknown Host1:15

      called Fabheads, started in twenty sixteen, but recently in the news in twenty twenty-five because they've raised a lot of funding. They are in a space called additive manufacturing, which I'm personally very curious to, because my subject in s- college was mechanical engineering. Uh, hi, Dhinesh. Welcome to the podcast. Um, Dhinesh, uh, can you tell us what Fabheads does?

   2. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj1:36

      Yeah. So at Fabheads, we primarily focus on a group of materials called composite materials. So these are materials like carbon fiber, Kevlar, glass, and so on. So this is a group of materials that has been only around since twentieth century. But, uh, uh, in spite of being for around for a j- very short time, uh, they have very amazing properties, that they just feel like plastics, but they're as strong as stainless steel. And they are also incredibly safe, uh, they, uh, uh, corrosion resistance, and so on. So because of several of these magic qualities coming into one single s- uh, material, they are, you know, uh, becoming the go-to material across, say, shipping, aerospace, defense, and a lot of sectors. Even, uh, over titanium, you might have heard of, um, biomedical implants, right? The hip replacement and so on. Traditionally, people have been using titanium by and large, but now people are slowly moving towards carbon fiber-based systems. So, like, those are slowly replacing a lot of materials, but if you look at how these components are fabricated, they are done by manual manufacturing process. So that is where we are coming in with our own newer, better, uh, automated manufacturing process to, in a way, revolutionizing this world. Yeah.

   3. UHUnknown Host2:43

      So you manufacture, uh, advanced material? No, com- components made of advanced materials-

   4. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj2:50

      Yeah

   5. UHUnknown Host2:50

      ... right?

   6. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj2:51

      Correct.

   7. UHUnknown Host2:51

      Okay. In additive way, what does that mean?

   8. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj2:54

      Yeah. So if you,

4. 2:56 – 8:38

   What is additive manufacturing?

   1. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj2:56

      by and large, look at, say, plastics or metals, uh, there are a lot of manufacturing processes out there, like, uh, you you can make it by injection molding for plastics or, uh, 3D printing for plastic, and similarly, casting, sheet metal bending, and even again, 3D printing for metals and so on.

   2. UHUnknown Host3:11

      I remember my first class ever at IIT was lathe-

   3. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj3:15

      Yeah

   4. UHUnknown Host3:15

      ... which is turning-

   5. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj3:16

      Yes

   6. UHUnknown Host3:17

      ... which is also a-

   7. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj3:18

      Yeah

   8. UHUnknown Host3:18

      ... manufacturing process.

   9. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj3:19

      Correct. A lot of these reductive manufacturing processes, like, uh, machining, milling, lathe, EDM, and so on. So a lot of machining, like, where reductive processes are there. So these are, by and large, how metals and plastics are fabricated. In composites, if you look at the unique property of what composite offers, directionality. We might call all these materials like plastics, metals, as by and large, they are all isotropic materials. But fiber composites are actually something-- it comes in a group of materials called anisotropic materials. So what that means is they don't behave the same way across all directions. So, like, fiber is kind of like thread, right? So you take a thread. Along the direction of the thread, it is going to have a very high strength, but I can easily cut off thread. In the perpendicular direction, you cannot take much load, essentially. So that is how when I'm making, uh, anything with these fiber-based composite materials, how I am directionally laying these fibers will be very critical. Because of these pro- reasons, casting or machining kind of processes don't really work for composite materials. That is why people traditionally, they take sheets of, like, almost like textile cloth. They take sheets of fabric, of glass fiber or carbon fiber and so on, and then they lay it layer by layer, and then they cure it in an oven. That kind of solidifies.

   10. UHUnknown Host4:33

       Sure. So you, uh, just to, uh, re- replay some of the things you said-

   11. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj4:38

       Mm-hmm

   12. UHUnknown Host4:38

       ... traditionally, metals and plastics have been made with reductive, removing material-

   13. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj4:44

       Mm-hmm

   14. UHUnknown Host4:44

       ... through various processes or via casting or molding-

   15. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj4:47

       Yeah

   16. UHUnknown Host4:48

       ... where you need a mold, and you pour the liquid material, and-

   17. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj4:51

       Yeah

   18. UHUnknown Host4:51

       ... then you remove the mold.

   19. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj4:51

       Forms it out. Yeah.

   20. UHUnknown Host4:53

       And, and the process that you are saying is that these materials, metals and plastics, are isotropic, which means this way or that way, it provides the same qualities.

   21. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj5:03

       Yeah.

   22. UHUnknown Host5:03

       But that's not true in carbon fiber.

   23. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj5:05

       Correct.

   24. UHUnknown Host5:05

       And then you said that in carbon fiber, the traditional process is, you take a sheet, put a layer of resin, take another sheet, put a layer of resin, and so on, right?

   25. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj5:13

       Yeah. Correct.

   26. UHUnknown Host5:14

       Okay. So is... But this is not what you're doing?

   27. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj5:16

       So, no, we don't do this. So we-- Typically, this is something that a man has to do, uh, yeah, labor-intensive. It's a very labor-intensive process.

   28. UHUnknown Host5:24

       Mm.

   29. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj5:24

       And, uh, when they apply these resins also, they have to be very careful that the resin is spread across the full fabric in a very uniform manner as-

   30. UHUnknown Host5:30

       When we say that an aircraft body, like a Boeing-
5. 8:38 – 11:01

   What does Fabheads do?

   1. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj8:38

      as I said. Uh, currently, we are more focused on drones because our missions are fairly small at the moment. We can make components of up to 1.5 meter today with the missions that we have in our facility. We are doing primarily some, uh, components for drones, uh, ISRO rockets we are building, uh, then, uh, some automotive ro- mo- uh, robotics. These are the kind of work that we are-

   2. UHUnknown Host8:59

      These are machines that you have built?

   3. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj9:00

      Yeah.

   4. UHUnknown Host9:01

      Okay, so you have built machines that do additive composite manufacturing?

   5. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj9:05

      Yeah.

   6. UHUnknown Host9:06

      Additive manufacturing with composite materials.

   7. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj9:07

      Yeah. Correct.

   8. UHUnknown Host9:08

      And then you make the parts also?

   9. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj9:09

      Yes. So we don't-- currently, we don't sell the machines at the moment. Uh, we do sell to ITs and academia as kind of as a technology evangelization, sort of. But by and large, we don't, uh, uh, sell the machines per se, but we operate on a manufacturing-as-a-service model, MaaS we call it. Uh, so where, where we build our own factories and we take orders from our clients, and it's fabricated and supplied to them.

   10. UHUnknown Host9:30

       Understood. I did read the news article about a year or two back, where you, uh, gave about 100 machines to IIT Madras.

   11. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj9:36

       Yeah.

   12. UHUnknown Host9:36

       Is that correct?

   13. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj9:37

       Uh, [chuckles] not 100, 30 machines.

   14. UHUnknown Host9:39

       Thirty machines to IIT Madras.

   15. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj9:40

       Yeah.

   16. UHUnknown Host9:40

       So students here actually have access to your-

   17. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj9:42

       Yeah

   18. UHUnknown Host9:42

       ... composite 3D printing.

   19. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj9:44

       Correct. So the machines that we build, we also have a, a understanding with our dean that, uh, we have to compulsorily upgrade it to our latest generation machines within five years.

   20. UHUnknown Host9:54

       Nice.

   21. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj9:54

       So we will ensure that not only the same machines continue to be there, but we'll keep upgrading also.

   22. UHUnknown Host9:59

       You know, I have had this really unique experience. Uh, this is, uh... We are sitting at the Center for Innovation, and they have a 3D printing club.

   23. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj10:05

       Yeah.

   24. UHUnknown Host10:05

       So I was, uh, walking around one day, many, many years back, maybe two, three years back, and I saw the 3D printing, uh, club.

   25. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj10:12

       Mm.

   26. UHUnknown Host10:12

       And I, and I think that day, it was a holiday, nobody was there, but some students were there in the 3D printing club. So I went and asked them, "What are you printing?"

   27. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj10:18

       Mm.

   28. UHUnknown Host10:19

       And they kind of laughed at me and said, "We are not printing anything. We are building the machine." [laughing] I was like, "Okay, fine." [chuckles]

   29. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj10:27

       So yeah, very true. Like, even us, right, we are building a machine.

   30. UHUnknown Host10:30

       Mm.
6. 11:01 – 15:00

   When & why did 3D printing become additive manufacturing?

   1. UHUnknown Host11:01

      feels like there was a period when everybody called it 3D printing-

   2. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj11:04

      Yeah

   3. UHUnknown Host11:04

      ... and then the whole industry decided we will never use this term again, [chuckles] and became additive manufacturing.

   4. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj11:09

      Yeah. So, uh, coming from a composites industry, right, I have a completely different, uh, view on it, which many plastics and metal guys will disagree with, but that's what I'm gonna offer.

   5. UHUnknown Host11:20

      Okay.

   6. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj11:20

      All right? Uh, if you look at additive manufacturing, uh, composites, since ever, ever since it was developed, in 1920s, glass fiber was developed, we have been fabricating with additive manufacturing, right?

   7. UHUnknown Host11:31

      Oh, right, because it's layer-

   8. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj11:32

      Because it is layer by layer.

   9. UHUnknown Host11:33

      Yeah.

   10. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj11:33

       We are taking a fabric of sheet, we are manually laying down fiber, and then we are adding resin to it, and then another layer of fiber. Depending on how much thickness you want, that many layers of fiber you add. So composites have traditionally been always done by additive manufacturing. So, uh, additive manufacturing is kind of just like a, um, a, you just add material, right?

   11. UHUnknown Host11:51

       Yeah.

   12. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj11:51

       So there is a process called, uh, winding. You might have, like, uh, heard about coil winding or in electronics or like... There's a similar process called winding in, uh, uh-... composites also, where, uh, you take any pressure vessels, for example, any cylindrical pressure vessels like, uh-

   13. UHUnknown Host12:06

       Like a submarine.

   14. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj12:07

       Scuba tanks. Not submarines, where-

   15. UHUnknown Host12:09

       Oh.

   16. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj12:09

       Scuba tanks or, uh, uh, uh-

   17. UHUnknown Host12:11

       Hyperloop.

   18. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj12:12

       Yes, Hyperloop. [chuckles] Uh, uh, any, uh, mm, uh, the CNG tanks in cars and so on.

   19. UHUnknown Host12:19

       Yeah.

   20. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj12:19

       All these, s- uh, tanks are made by a process called filament winding, which is essentially like you imagine a lathe machine, right? The... It moves exactly, there is a spindle that rotates, and then there is a tool head that moves left and right. But instead of the tool head removing material, it has a thread that goes through the spindle, and as the mandrel rotates, the material keeps getting rolled.

   21. UHUnknown Host12:39

       Mm.

   22. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj12:39

       So you are getting it. So it is kind of like a, a, exactly a combination of lathe converted into an additive manufacturing.

   23. UHUnknown Host12:45

       Sure.

   24. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj12:45

       So instead of the tool, uh, re- uh, removing material, it just adds material into the, uh, spin, uh, spinning mandrel, essentially. So that is k- kind of how every cylinders are made, any carbon fiber, glass fiber cylinders, scuba tanks, uh, uh, CNG tanks, all these are made via this same winding process. So this is another additive manufacturing process, in fact. So 3D printing, uh, only came in around, say, '80s, actually, 1980s, but composites, we have been using additive manufacturing process ever since, uh-

   25. UHUnknown Host13:14

       Very interesting.

   26. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj13:15

       Yeah.

   27. UHUnknown Host13:15

       So for you, it was just a process of going from manual to automated-

   28. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj13:18

       Yeah, correct.

   29. UHUnknown Host13:19

       ... and to use the advantages of-

   30. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj13:20

       Yeah
7. 15:00 – 19:20

   The origin story of Fabheads

   1. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj15:00

      Mm.

   2. UHUnknown Host15:01

      And it just, like... I think I met you a few times here and there-

   3. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj15:05

      Mm

   4. UHUnknown Host15:05

      ... maybe in some events or something, and your journey has been one of, like, extreme doggedness, right? Like, we, we are in this universe where, uh, people think of startup as, um, "I'll try it for three months."

   5. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj15:18

      Mm.

   6. UHUnknown Host15:18

      "I'll try this idea, I'll see if it works. I'll try that idea if it works. Maybe I'll give it a year, and then maybe I'll go to a job or something if it doesn't work." But this is, this is the opposite of that. You've been at it for nine, ten years. Um, one, why does it take so long-

   7. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj15:36

      Mm

   8. UHUnknown Host15:36

      ... in, in your industry? And second, what gives you the confidence and the energy and the conviction to stay?

   9. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj15:42

      Yeah. Um, so yeah, d- definitely you hit a point on this question. [chuckles] So, uh, one thing for sure is, uh, I always believe, like, uh, if somebody comes to me and asks, like: "What is the most important quality for an entrepreneur?" I would say it's perseverance. Uh, at least from my perspective and my experience, it is, uh, that, uh, uh, you keep getting challenges, like, uh, uh, but you need to persevere it through. That, that I feel is always the, uh... Persevere and be flexible about it, not just be stubborn. You cannot keep doing the same thing and expect some things will change. I think just the flexibility and persevering through the troubles that you face, that's what I feel is the most important thing as a entrepreneur, as we need. Um, but, uh, coming back, uh, why it took a long time for me? Number one, the work that we are doing is not something that has been done in India a lot. Uh, people have attempted it and dropped it. We got to know, uh, that there was a very huge, well-funded, uh, process, um, from UNIL, had initiated to build a similar technology that we were doing. And, uh, they had, uh, commissioned one of the big machine makers at that time. Uh, it was around a 15-year project that they did, and then they abandoned it, sort of. So this was a very heavily government-funded project, in fact. And similarly, there was a similar project running with DRDO also at that time-

   10. UHUnknown Host17:03

       Mm

   11. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj17:04

       ... to develop, because this is a technology that we needed in India-

   12. UHUnknown Host17:06

       Mm

   13. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj17:06

       ... as well, right? Uh, so in spite of several attempts, this is not something people have been able to crack.

   14. UHUnknown Host17:12

       Mm.

   15. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj17:12

       And we felt that we could crack it. We knew that we had the ability from... in terms of technology, capability, engineering-wise, we knew that we would be able to crack it, but the capital and the convincing the investors that with this amount of capital, we can do it, when somebody else with a even bigger capital, they're not able to do it. So it, it does take, uh, some amount of effort to convince the investors also. So the way we went about this in the first two years has been like, we needed to build a machine, right? Firstly, the machine needs material. The material, the way I get material off the shelf, I cannot directly load it into this machine. It won't work. So I needed to change the material property, material form it into another form, which is not available. So that is the first step in our technology crack. So I need to get the material-... uh, invent our material processing technology first, and then invent the machine. Because if I, uh, uh, if I don't even have the material, I cannot try- do trials on the machine. So the first, uh, material processing alone took us about two and a half years. Now, I knew that this material processing will work, but without the machine in place, I cannot sell the material to anybody. But at the same time, if I had built the machine, like I would not have the materials to actually test my machine with. So it was almost like two-

   16. UHUnknown Host18:30

       It's like two startups together.

   17. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj18:31

       Two startups, yeah. We had to develop the material first, which took a bit of time, and, uh, with that, uh, we were able to, uh, start the prototyping of the machine very quickly. But we didn't have a full-fledged machine, but we were able to build just the MVP part of the ma- critical technology part of the machine, and we had the material developed already. And we were able to demonstrate to investors that, "See, this is a very quick MVP of the technology. The material part we have cracked, and the critical part of the machine also we have cracked." With that, we were able to go to investors and showcase, and able to get the funding.

   18. UHUnknown Host19:03

       Two questions here.

   19. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj19:04

       Yeah.

   20. UHUnknown Host19:04

       One is, say, the machine that you gave to IIT with the material, that maybe that was last year? I- I can't remember.

   21. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj19:10

       Yeah.

   22. UHUnknown Host19:10

       Was it last year?

   23. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj19:11

       About a year back, yeah.

   24. UHUnknown Host19:12

       Um, how long did it take to bu- de- design, develop-

   25. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj19:15

       Yeah

   26. UHUnknown Host19:15

       ... that machine and that process?

   27. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj19:16

       So yeah. So this, when I said, like, we cracked the material

8. 19:20 – 23:26

   How long did it take to create the first prototype of Fabheads’ own machine?

   1. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj19:20

      and the MVP of the technology, that took us about four years.

   2. UHUnknown Host19:23

      Okay.

   3. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj19:24

      All right? Just to come up to the MVP stage of the technology. So we did, uh, have to like, uh, figure out a lot of things there. If we had better capital... It was just two people [chuckles] working, uh, um, in one of the, uh, one, one-- working in my home, sort of. It took us quite a while, uh, essentially, and we had two interns to support us, so it was just four, four of us working essentially. Uh, that did take quite a while. Um, once we had the machine, once we had the MVP, we were able to actually get, uh, uh, about half a million we were able to raise at that time. That was the first round of funding. This was in two thousand, uh, '19.

   4. UHUnknown Host19:59

      That is the second question I wanted to ask.

   5. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj20:00

      Yeah.

   6. UHUnknown Host20:01

      You were able to convince investors-

   7. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj20:04

      Yeah

   8. UHUnknown Host20:04

      ... that, "I took four years to design this machine, it'll take another four, five years to..." Uh, you know, people say that in India, investors are only investing in samosas and ice cream and-

   9. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj20:14

      Yeah

   10. UHUnknown Host20:14

       ... all of that. But they have invested in your company, right?

   11. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj20:18

       So I, I was definitely excep- exception back then. [chuckles] So today, there's so many investors willing to take a bigger bet, like, uh, invest in deep tech, manufacturing technologies, and so on. Back then, I was definitely one of the exceptions. Like in two thousand and eighteen, '19, and so on, there were not many people. One of the reasons I was able to do this, get this investment, is because this was a angel firm that invested in us, where many of them were engineers themselves. So I was able to go out and convince them, like, uh, "This is the technology, this is the, uh, capability of this technology."

   12. UHUnknown Host20:47

       When you're saying engi- engineers, you mean, like, hardware engineers, not software engineers?

   13. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj20:51

       Uh, they were mostly industrialists in that case. So they were mostly like CTO, CEOs of, uh, uh, um, automotive companies, uh-

   14. UHUnknown Host20:58

       Yeah

   15. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj20:58

       ... robotics, chemical-

   16. UHUnknown Host20:59

       That makes a lot of sense-

   17. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj21:00

       Yeah

   18. UHUnknown Host21:00

       ... because in software engineering-

   19. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj21:02

       Mm

   20. UHUnknown Host21:02

       ... four years to an MVP is-

   21. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj21:04

       Yeah

   22. UHUnknown Host21:04

       ... nobody will-

   23. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj21:06

       No- nobody will invest. Nobody will even, like, "What have you been doing?" [chuckles]

   24. UHUnknown Host21:08

       Yeah.

   25. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj21:09

       And these days it is just couple of days with AI coming into play.

   26. UHUnknown Host21:11

       Yeah, correct.

   27. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj21:12

       But in hardware, nothing can be done about it. You have to, you have to build a machine. If it doesn't work out, like, you have to rebuild the machine, and then the cost and the time that goes into it is multiplied that many times. So the number of iterations that you typically have in case of an hardware, any development, is... That's why kind of many VCs used to kind of shy away from it. But now they are seeing the value, like, if you can persevere through that initial phase, the value offering after that is insane. Like, even, uh, another competitor comes into picture, we can actually protect some hardware invention via, uh, patents and so on, which is not possible in IT and stuff.

   28. UHUnknown Host21:48

       Yeah.

   29. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj21:48

       So, uh, let's say you have Ola, Uber, Flipkart, all these guys, they all have operational strength, but, um, what is the IP that they can protect?

   30. UHUnknown Host21:55

       Yeah, their moat is not, uh, a patent.
9. 23:26 – 28:45

   Dhinesh’s journey to success & secret to patience

   1. UHUnknown Host23:27

      how did you learn to be so patient? [laughing]

   2. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj23:32

      [chuckles] I don't know. Um, I, I think, uh, my parents will definitely not call me patient. [chuckles] Um, but yeah, with regard to this, I think we have been fairly patient, and we knew this is kind of how it is going to be. Uh, how I got into this particular area, I would say, uh, IIT had a very big role-

   3. UHUnknown Host23:53

      You were a student here from two thousand and seven to '11, right?

   4. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj23:55

      Two thousand and seven to '11, yeah. So that is when CFIE was actually getting commission. Uh, uh, so two thousand and seven, so you and Ravikant were big part in getting this going. Um, in first year of summer, first year of summer holidays, this place got set- CFIE got set up.... and, uh, me and, uh, seven other, uh, batchmates, we wanted to build something called vacuum blimp. So blimps, as any-

   5. UHUnknown Host24:20

      Yeah

   6. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj24:20

      ... of the air blimps that float in the air with the hydrogen or helium fill. So what we were essentially thinking is, if it is vacuum, it'll be even more efficient. So we went about making a vacuum blimp, and, uh, we realized that if it needs to be even more lighter, it needs to be made with glass fiber and carbon fiber based on the re- li- little research that we did at that time. And then we, uh, when we started building it, we realized that there is nobody in IIT Madras or others who has the experience to build this thing. So there was one professor who had some, uh, technicians and himself, and we got trained by him a little bit, and then we started doing trials and, uh... Completely, we figured out on the go, like, how to fabricate-

   7. UHUnknown Host25:00

      Can I, can I tell you some very co- I don't... Maybe you already know this.

   8. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:04

      Yes.

   9. UHUnknown Host25:04

      When CFI was set up-

   10. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:05

       Mm

   11. UHUnknown Host25:06

       ... we broke down a, a unit of, uh, the workshop.

   12. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:10

       Mm.

   13. UHUnknown Host25:10

       So this is the central workshop-

   14. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:11

       Yeah, correct

   15. UHUnknown Host25:12

       ... right? So every other-

   16. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:13

       FRP

   17. UHUnknown Host25:13

       ... bay is the-

   18. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:14

       Uh.

   19. UHUnknown Host25:14

       Yeah, so the FRP, where you are sitting right now, [chuckles] used to be the FRP bay.

   20. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:19

       The FRP. Yes, exactly.

   21. UHUnknown Host25:20

       Which is fiber reinforced plastic bay.

   22. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:22

       Exactly. [laughing] Yeah.

   23. UHUnknown Host25:23

       And you are telling me that the first team that moved into the new workshop building-

   24. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:27

       It just so happened.

   25. UHUnknown Host25:28

       Correct.

   26. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:28

       It so happened that it was a composites-

   27. UHUnknown Host25:30

       Yeah

   28. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:30

       ... bay. We were building glass fiber components for the aircraft bay.

   29. UHUnknown Host25:35

       Amazing.

   30. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj25:35

       So it is those people-
10. 28:45 – 30:00

    The story of how Dhinesh left his job at ISRO to start Fabheads

    1. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj28:45

       they don't do it anymore. But, and for that reason, I got fairly quickly interviewed and got into ISRO.

    2. UHUnknown Host28:49

       Wow, okay. Okay, this is great. So, um, then you left ISRO and started this company, or was there a gap?

    3. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj28:55

       Um, so I, I knew what I was gonna do in this particular area.

    4. UHUnknown Host28:59

       Mm.

    5. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj29:00

       Uh, but immediately I didn't start. I had a small break, where I was, uh, doing some prototypes at home and, uh, waking up neighbors, drilling stuff [chuckles] through the middle of the night and stuff. But yeah, uh, uh, about a six months gap I had, like-

    6. UHUnknown Host29:12

       Yeah

    7. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj29:12

       ... basically figuring out how-

    8. UHUnknown Host29:13

       Figuring out what to do.

    9. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj29:14

       Yeah.

    10. UHUnknown Host29:14

        Um, and your co-founder is from IIT Delhi-

    11. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj29:16

        Yeah

    12. UHUnknown Host29:17

        ... right?

    13. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj29:17

        Correct.

    14. UHUnknown Host29:17

        So and both of you were in ISRO.

    15. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj29:18

        Yes.

    16. UHUnknown Host29:18

        So it's not just IIT Madras, but also other pe- other IITs who are joining. So I just want to clarify that, that it does happen.

    17. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj29:25

        [chuckles]

    18. UHUnknown Host29:26

        There are people.

    19. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj29:27

        Yeah, I mean, like, uh, so, uh, the way this happened between me and Abhijit, uh, my other co-founder, so, uh, he was working in composites back in ISRO directly, so he was, uh, uh, making the biggest heat shields ever made by ISRO in carbon fiber, totally, and the payload adapter, satellites. Anywhere composites was coming in, he and his team was actually doing it. Uh, and he was also very much into robotics, automation, and stuff. So that was his inspiration towards, you know, automating composites, essentially coming into picture.

    20. UHUnknown Host29:56

        Very nice. Um, of course, it's taken you a long time, but you are right now,

11. 30:00 – 31:50

    Why it is important for India to own the additive manufacturing technologies used

    1. UHUnknown Host30:00

       uh, owning and, uh, providing a service on a mac- manufacturing setup, which only seven companies in the world can do. I also think, yeah, as you were saying, uh, this, India has this national drone mission, where we are trying to implement a lot of drones, uh, in, in agriculture and so on.... and there is no way that we've been able to make so many drones unless we own those technologies?

    2. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj30:21

       Correct. Exactly. So as I said, right, uh, not just drones, like you wanna make fighter jets, you wanna make, uh, submarines, anything th- that is made with carbon fiber today, we don't have enough trained technicians in India. So today, unless more such automation machines like what we are building is coming into picture, requirements of Indian defense or Indian aerospace will not be met.

    3. UHUnknown Host30:41

       Right.

    4. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj30:42

       Yep.

    5. UHUnknown Host30:43

       I want to ask you, so this... I got a sense of this. We spoke a lot about how Fabheads started, the doggedness, and the perseverance with which you have pushed the company until now. You've raised funding this year. Can you talk us a little bit about your funding?

    6. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj30:56

       Yeah. So we got, uh, about $10 million funding from Accel and Trifecta Capital together, putting together. And, uh, with this, primarily the biggest expense is going towards, uh, setting up our newer factory right now, which we are setting up in Bangalore at the moment. Today, we are working out of a small R&D cum mini production facility in Chennai, and this will be our, uh, our first large-scale production facility, uh, in about a two-acre where we are setting up our factory.

    7. UHUnknown Host31:22

       Nice. Damn cool! Congratulations on that.

    8. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj31:24

       Thank you.

    9. UHUnknown Host31:24

       Um, what is the... Uh, uh, we are, we are talking of additive manufacturing in composites, uh, advanced materials, so, um, uh, we... I think the overall the field is called advanced manufacturing, right?

    10. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj31:37

        Yeah.

    11. UHUnknown Host31:38

        Um, so what is the next four, five, 10 years of advanced manufacturing going to look like?

    12. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj31:43

        Yeah. Uh, definitely the ultimate material today is composite materials. So

12. 31:50 – 34:05

    What does the future of advanced manufacturing look like?

    1. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj31:50

       you look at, uh, um, more automotive, like for example, uh, this probably amazing s- feature that I can talk about, you might have seen F1 cars crashing into each other at extremely high speeds, and still the driver walks away safe. This is because the whole F1 car is made out of carbon fiber. Typically, what happens is, carbon fiber, one of the magical features of it is, uh, uh, it absorbs all that impact crash and doesn't transfer that energy to the driver inside. That is how it actually ensures that the driver is still able to walk out safe. In Europe today, the impact requirements, the, of the, even the simpler road vehicles, is so high that the bonnet of the cars are being forced to be made out of carbon fiber in Europe, or glass fiber, or carbon fiber, and so on, from a safety angle. So you can imagine this kind of safety angle, when it comes to India, you will see more, more forced adoption-

    2. UHUnknown Host32:41

       Mm

    3. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj32:41

       ... from a safety angle coming in. Uh, in Europe today, you can- you might have seen LPG cylinders, uh, at home, which are predominantly metals in India, right? The steel-

    4. UHUnknown Host32:50

       We have seen that some of the companies are starting to move to a plastic.

    5. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj32:52

       Yeah. Not plastic, glass fiber.

    6. UHUnknown Host32:54

       Glass fiber.

    7. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj32:55

       Yeah, glass fiber-

    8. UHUnknown Host32:55

       Indian supplies a-

    9. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj32:57

       Correct

    10. UHUnknown Host32:57

        ... very light-

    11. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj32:58

        Yes

    12. UHUnknown Host32:58

        ... cylinder.

    13. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj32:59

        In Europe, uh, metal cylinders are banned.

    14. UHUnknown Host33:02

        Okay.

    15. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj33:03

        Uh, because in case of an external fire, yeah, glass fiber or carbon fiber cylinders will not explode, but, uh, uh, metal cylinders will explode, essentially. So a lot of safety features are also coming into picture other than, say, fuel efficiency driven, uh, uh, light weighting, and all these things, uh, corrosion resistance, and so on. So a lot of environmental-related dr- drivers also now happening towards more and more composite adoption. So the biggest challenge in adopting more materials is automation, because there is n- not enough manufacturers out there, and the cost, because of the way things are being produced.

    16. UHUnknown Host33:37

        Sorry, can I just interrupt you a bit?

    17. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj33:39

        Yeah.

    18. UHUnknown Host33:39

        In terms of additive manufacturing or 3D manufacturing of metals and plastics-

    19. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj33:44

        Mm.

    20. UHUnknown Host33:44

        - the main advantage is that in reductive manufacturing, you can't get certain shapes.

    21. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj33:49

        Mm.

    22. UHUnknown Host33:49

        So you are able to get those intricate shapes-

    23. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj33:52

        Yeah

    24. UHUnknown Host33:52

        ... internal countings-

    25. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj33:54

        With composite material, yeah

    26. UHUnknown Host33:55

        ... which is simply not possible earlier, so you can make more complex items.

    27. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj33:58

        Mm.

    28. UHUnknown Host33:59

        Uh, in, in composites, the advantages you're saying is that firstly, it goes from manual to automated.

    29. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj34:04

        Manual to automated,

13. 34:05 – 37:25

    What’s the advantage of using additive manufacturing processes for composites?

    1. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj34:05

       yeah.

    2. UHUnknown Host34:05

       Uh, and secondly, you're saying that, uh-

    3. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj34:07

       Yeah

    4. UHUnknown Host34:07

       ... because of-

    5. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj34:08

       Like, you, you take a car, for example, right? Any of the body panels of a car will continue to be done with sheet metal only-

    6. UHUnknown Host34:14

       Mm

    7. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj34:14

       ... because the 3D printing will, will be too slow for a sheet metal works, essentially. Where the benefit is could be in the engine, where, uh, the engine could be very intricate, a lot of very complex shapes coming into picture, that could be ideally 3D printed-

    8. UHUnknown Host34:27

       Yeah

    9. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj34:27

       ... when the casting goes out, when the speed of 3D printing catches up to casting, that could actually be one of the ideal parts for, uh, 3D printing to actually take over in case of automotive, and so yeah. So the, in case of composites, as you rightly said, we don't have a competitor like sheet metal, or injection molding, or co- casting in case of composites. Today, it's done by man- manual process. 3D printing, the challenge, the pushback that 3D printing gets in case of metals and plastic is, the speed is very low. You can get me very amazing shapes, more complex shapes, yes, but you are very slow, which, because of it, the cost goes up a little bit. But in case of composites, that's not the case. There is m- uh, actually, any other existing process are actually more time intense, time and cost intensive, which is because it is run by hand. So our automation is going to be actually faster than that.

    10. UHUnknown Host35:12

        Mm.

    11. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj35:13

        So that kind of pushback, which 3D printing gets in case of plastics and metal-

    12. UHUnknown Host35:16

        Right

    13. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj35:16

        ... is not gonna happen in case of composites.

    14. UHUnknown Host35:18

        Amazing. So for composites, additive manufacturing is an obvious choice?

    15. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj35:24

        Yes.

    16. UHUnknown Host35:24

        Or automated additive manufacturing?

    17. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj35:25

        Yeah, correct.

    18. UHUnknown Host35:26

        Is an obvious choice.

    19. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj35:27

        Absolutely. You got it.

    20. UHUnknown Host35:28

        Uh, and, and because of that-

    21. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj35:30

        Yeah

    22. UHUnknown Host35:30

        ... we will see adoption of composites into many more-

    23. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj35:33

        Yes

    24. UHUnknown Host35:33

        ... uh, products.

    25. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj35:34

        Yeah.

    26. UHUnknown Host35:34

        Like cars, which we have never seen before, but-

    27. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj35:36

        Yeah

    28. UHUnknown Host35:36

        ... it's-

    29. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj35:37

        Correct

    30. UHUnknown Host35:37

        ... more and more going to happen.
14. 37:25 – 41:47

    Closing thoughts & reflections

    1. UHUnknown Host37:25

       you a little bit about, um... Sorry, I, I just keep coming back to this because in my experience, uh, we've, of course, met a lot of entrepreneurs and, uh, I've been an entrepreneur myself. The level of doggedness and perseverance that you have, um, uh, gone through is-

    2. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj37:42

       Mm

    3. UHUnknown Host37:42

       ... intense. So you told, you told us why it took so long and your equation with investors and so on. But on a personal level-

    4. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj37:50

       Mm

    5. UHUnknown Host37:51

       ... doesn't it get exhausting to wait and to push four years for an MVP and so on? How do you manage that, the, the kind of-

    6. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj38:00

       Mm

    7. UHUnknown Host38:01

       ... um, to build something that is unique, patentable in a hardware space, the amount of time, energy it requires, how do you manage that from a personal level?

    8. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj38:09

       Yeah. Uh, I mean, like, uh, that's, that's probably why I [chuckles] said perseverance is one of the key important things.

    9. UHUnknown Host38:16

       Don't you get up sometimes and say, "This is done. I'm done. I'm just going to get a job?"

    10. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj38:20

        So typically, like, uh, even if the thought comes across, right, it'll probably go away in about ten, fifteen seconds or so, because I know that I can get it done still. I mean, like, I, I would be completely wrong if I said that the thought never come across, but, uh, it usually goes away quick, as, as fast as it comes, at least for me [chuckles] it does. So because I believed in the product, what we are building is definitely out there. It's just about, uh, convincing the right amount- right set of investors to say that: "We are there. This is the technology, and this can do this magic thing in the world, and you need to believe in us." So, uh, we did- we hit a lot of roadblocks, like during pandemic and, uh, a long route and everything, but we hired some very good supportive investor who had invested in the very first round that I talked about. Whenever we wanted some-

    11. UHUnknown Host39:07

        Should I, should I, should I just say, are you saying that your conviction in your, in your thesis was very, very strong?

    12. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj39:14

        Yeah. And we also were flexible about... We-

    13. UHUnknown Host39:17

        Okay

    14. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj39:18

        ... Uh, about was in '18, '19, uh, I went to, uh, uh, show- showcase the same MVP to a couple of clients, and we incorporated a lot of that feedback also. So it is not like I just blindly built something, and I expected it to work in the market. So it's, it's not like the very first thought process on how to go about it is what we are implementing right now. Definitely not. So in fact, earlier we thought that it would be actually the easiest way to sell the machines instead of do it. Actually, we felt like, uh, uh, it is more easier to manufacture and sell the products, rather than convince them to change their whole factory to fit a- fit our machine into their flow.

    15. UHUnknown Host39:53

        Understood. So you're saying that you were clear that this will come in?

    16. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj39:56

        Yeah.

    17. UHUnknown Host39:57

        But you were flexible about-

    18. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj39:58

        How to go about it.

    19. UHUnknown Host39:59

        How to go about it.

    20. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj39:59

        Yeah. There were a lot of... Even on the business model, on operations level, uh, lot of things we needed to change about. Like even, uh, initially, I thought that, uh, I will get, uh, fifty crores easily. Uh, this was way back when I just had a MVP in, right? But, uh, all we got was, like, four, four crores at that time. [chuckles]

    21. UHUnknown Host40:17

        [chuckles]

    22. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj40:17

        So my plans for fifty crores was something, and then I had to really step down and then go about, "Okay, now, if this is all that I can get, like, uh, how can I demonstrate enough of the technology so I can convince the next stage of investors?" So a lot of, uh, changes I had to do on how I went about it. But yeah, definitely I knew at the end of the day, what the ultimate vision is, that remains the same.

    23. UHUnknown Host40:41

        Understood. Okay. Thank you for spending some ti- some time with us and explaining this to me. Um, I love this because, first of all, I'm from manufacturing. Actually, I studied manufacturing. I shouldn't say I'm from a manufacturing background, but I did study it in college, so it's, uh, it's fascinating for me to learn something in that space, how it's moving, and, uh, thank you for sharing.

    24. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj41:01

        Absolutely.

    25. UHUnknown Host41:02

        Any last thoughts? Any advice you want to give our audience?

    26. DKDhinesh Kanagaraj41:08

        Uh, I would say, I mean, like IITM, uh, the whole thing about building the vacuum limb was actually my stepping stone into the world of composites. Uh, definitely, the whole tagline of this particular project, Best Place to Build, I think I resonate to it very well. Uh, nothing, nothing more than that.

    27. UHUnknown Host41:27

        Thank you. This was great. And there you have it. Thank you for listening. Um, if you want to know more about this company, head to their website or their LinkedIn. Uh, you'll find them online. Thank you so much for watching. Please remember to like, share, subscribe, and see you next time.

Episode duration: 41:47