Secret Agent: How to Read Anyone and Never Get Taken Advantage Of: Evy Poumpouras

1. 0:00 – 3:09

   Introduction to Evy Poumpouras

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras0:00

      When people feel like they know you, and you just open up to everybody, then you just gave them the green light to take advantage of you.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez0:06

      Today, I've got Evy Poumpouras. She's not just a former Secret Service agent who protected four presidents and tons of dignitaries, she's a master of influence, lie detection, and psychological strength.

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras0:18

      Nice people can screw you over. Everyone's on their own journey for their own self-interest, and along the way, they may burn you.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez0:24

      And she is going to teach you today how to stop getting played in business, relationships, and life.

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras0:30

      If you struggle with people and they take advantage of you, stop talking a lot.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez0:35

      If you've ever wanted to read people like a pro, speak with power, or walk into any room and own it, this is your episode.

   7. EPEvy Poumpouras0:41

      Once you set the tone for people on how to treat you, it's done. It's so done.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez0:48

      You have been with the biggest leaders in the world, right?

   9. EPEvy Poumpouras0:50

      Yeah.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez0:50

       10 or 12 years with presidents.

   11. EPEvy Poumpouras0:52

       Had them either when they were current or in former. So Ford, before he passed away, I had. Bush Sr, Bush Jr, Obama, Clintons. I've had everybody but Reagan.

   12. CSCodie Sanchez1:02

       That is wild.

   13. EPEvy Poumpouras1:03

       I wanted Reagan. I heard he was a great guy.

   14. CSCodie Sanchez1:05

       Yeah, he seems like a legend. Having been with these huge world leaders, the best in the world-

   15. EPEvy Poumpouras1:09

       What did I learn?

   16. CSCodie Sanchez1:09

       ... I'm curious. Yeah, what did, what did you learn?

   17. EPEvy Poumpouras1:11

       When you're in the White House, you're in proximity. So a lot of folks don't know, so you're protecting presidents, current and former, and you're also protecting foreign heads of state. So a lot of folks don't know that when a foreign head of state comes to the United States, they would get Secret Service protection. And the goal is that you don't want foreign heads of state being assassinated on US soil. I grew up in an environment, and probably, like, from my early 20s on, being in an environment around this type of leadership. And without me realizing it, I was getting training. One thing I learned was truly resiliency. I mean, you'd be next to a president, I mean, literally, you're standing next to them, and the screen's on, and it's a network that doesn't like them and is literally just calling them all the names-

   18. CSCodie Sanchez2:02

       Hmm

   19. EPEvy Poumpouras2:02

       ... you could think of. And they had to tune that out and either get back up on stage to give a speech or go out there. Um, and you would see it. Or there was one day, and I forget what it was, but where all the Congress members would come to the, the, the White House.

   20. CSCodie Sanchez2:19

       Mm-hmm.

   21. EPEvy Poumpouras2:20

       And there was a name for it. It's escaping me. And it was a day where the f- First Lady and the president would have to greet them and spend the day with them, but they would be the same members also within there that, like, literally spewed just horrible things about them, and they would have to come and be gracious. And so I really learned how not to, uh, engage in conflict unless necessary or-

   22. CSCodie Sanchez2:47

       Hmm

   23. EPEvy Poumpouras2:48

       ... also, not even in conflict, but, like, to decide what was worth engaging in and what's not and what's just dis- dis- just to dismiss. Like, what doesn't matter? So you learn how to deal with people, but with grace and class. That was one thing I learned. The other thing that I thought was really smart that they did, it was always a circle of people around them, so they created

2. 3:09 – 6:11

   Lessons from Protecting Presidents

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras3:09

      a buffer. So even though-

   2. CSCodie Sanchez3:10

      Hmm

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras3:10

      ... there's negative things and chaos going around you, which there always is, you have a select group of people that you've selected. They've gone through your filter system. A lot of them were loyal people. And that buffer of people kept them clear, calm, and they were almost like a barrier to the outside world. So there, I learned having layers of zones of people.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez3:33

      Hmm.

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras3:33

      You have your innermost zone. There's not one circle. It's multiple circles. So it's, you've got your intimate circle, which is your people, where there's very high level of trust. You've got an outer zone where it's friendly, but not complete trust. I'll give you some trust.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez3:50

      Yeah.

   7. EPEvy Poumpouras3:51

      Then there's the acquaintance zone, where you wanna network and deal with these people, or you have to. Outer circle, where these are people just, like, looking to just devour you, but you still have to deal with them. So it's almost like these s- co-centric zones.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez4:05

      Yeah.

   9. EPEvy Poumpouras4:05

      And so I learned watching that. I didn't realize it till actually the most recent years when people were like, "Why do you do that?" And I kept thinking, "Well, why wouldn't I do that?" I got into the Secret Service 23, so I was exposed to that from a young age and absorbed it. So you, you learn a lot from the way people carry themselves, and you absorb that. So just because I happen to be around them, I absorb those characteristics.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez4:37

       It seems like everybody thinks that authenticity and vulnerability and sharing is the best trait one can have, you know? Let me share everything. Let me overshare everything. Let me be authentic by sharing everything. We've kind of forgotten that humans can have good intentions and bad intentions, [laughs] and you have to guard a little bit what you share publicly. And so I love the idea of, like, who are your close friends? And you don't have to treat everybody the exact same. You can treat people kindly everywhere, but you don't have to let everybody in, and I've certainly found that being more public now, and I'm sure you have, too. Uh, in the beginning, I was like, "Everybody's my buddy." Then later I realized, like, oh, no, they're just really charismatic. Like, we're not friends. That's just, that's their job is to, like, make me feel like I'm their friend. And I think a lot of the world around us is like that. And so, you know, I'd be curious your take. Do you think that being authentic and vulnerable all the time is good and that's what you should do?

   11. EPEvy Poumpouras5:34

       No. I, this whole vulnerable thing, I always hear it. Here's the problem with that. If I'm gonna share something with you, it should be truthful, and it should be done genuinely. Like, don't give me a story because you're trying to get me to put my guard down. How about you just be a genuine person?

   12. CSCodie Sanchez5:49

       Yeah.

   13. EPEvy Poumpouras5:50

       How about you just be, uh, truthful, respectful, and professional and let things happen on their own organically? And this authentic thing, so that's another thing. I'm probably the worst person, Codie, to ask these questions.

   14. CSCodie Sanchez6:02

       [laughs]

   15. EPEvy Poumpouras6:03

       I do. I just, you know, I wanna be transparent and honest with people because I feel like they're given things to do,

3. 6:11 – 9:10

   The Balance of Vulnerability and Authenticity

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras6:11

      and it does not work, and it sabotages their efforts, and then they're kind of at a loss. "I don't understand why I'm having problems with people. I don't understand why I don't have better relationships." So being authentic, uh, first of all, what does that mean? Just be genuine. It's not... I think what people think authentic means is, "I'm gonna come in, I'm going to be me, and whoever likes it." You need to bring different versions of you to different conversations and to different people. I'm, I'm in business now. You and I were talking a little bit off camera. And when I work with people or have people work with me, I want the business version of you.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez6:50

      Yeah.

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras6:51

      I don't want the version of you that comes in, "Evy, I need advice." I don't mind from time to time, but I'm running a business. So if you come in authentically like, "I'm having a horrible day, Evy. I need this, I need that," I, I'm truly sorry to hear that, but that doesn't work with the business version of me. I can't get things done. So I need this professional, strong version of you to show up for me. That's, that's where this authentic th- thing leads people. And I do a lot of keynotes by, by mistake. I kind of happened to stumble to doing keynotes for big companies, and I mean, like, Fortune 100 companies. And one, I'm putting it out there, everybody, so they know, one of the biggest complaints they have is we- we're getting people in who have a weak work ethic.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez7:35

      Oof.

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras7:36

      Who are bringing versions of themselves that is not helping the whole mission of the company, that we're having difficult time keeping people, finding the right people, then bringing people who will blend into our culture and make it strong. And there's this heightened level of weakness that's coming out. I'm also an adjunct professor. I see it with my students.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez7:56

      Mm-hmm.

   7. EPEvy Poumpouras7:56

      They are shocked when I hold them accountable for an assignment. They are shocked when I won't accept a late assignment. Shocked. And I'm like, "Why would I accept it? It's... I, I, I, I gave you outlines. I gave you parameters. I made it very clear to you day one during our interview together before you came to my class," 'cause it's like a job interview, um, "whether you should stay in my class or not, what I expect." But they're surprised when I hold them accountable to what I told you I expect.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez8:24

      That's wild. I, I mean, I believe it. Um-

   9. EPEvy Poumpouras8:26

      Because people say, "I expect this of you," but then I do this. So then what we do is we groom people. I may tell you, "I want this from you," but my behavior says, "Okay, I know the syllabus says don't hand this late, um, and that I won't accept it. And, you know, I know I told you on the first day that don't bother handing in a late assignment." But then when you do come to me with a late assignment, then I break, and I'm like, "Okay, give it to me." I, I did the... I'm the problem.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez8:53

       Yeah.

   11. EPEvy Poumpouras8:54

       I'm the problem, and I'm also not guiding you for the outside world to be your best.

   12. CSCodie Sanchez9:00

       I think I heard you say somewhere, and I really liked it, that, you know, a boundary is something that you actually hold, otherwise you're just talking. And [laughs] I love this. It's like in this world,

4. 9:10 – 11:55

   Setting Boundaries and Expectations

   1. CSCodie Sanchez9:10

      if you don't keep your promises to yourself, and if you don't keep the promises that you say you will out loud to another, that's probably the worst promise you could break, you know?

   2. EPEvy Poumpouras9:18

      Well, you get mad at yourself, too.

   3. CSCodie Sanchez9:20

      Yeah.

   4. EPEvy Poumpouras9:20

      And that's when people walk all over you, and it's a common thing. People come to me, "This person keeps doing this to me," and I'm always like, "You realize you, you play a role." It's not to be... I'm not being mean. It's like, and I'm not blaming you. It's like you have to always be like, "What am I doing that's causing this?" Every time I struggle with something or someone, I always go back in, "Okay, what am I doing that's helping contribute to this circumstance, to this situation, to this environment?" So I may not be the whole solution, 'cause it's always 50%. 50% me, 50% you. But I'm gonna manage my 50.

   5. CSCodie Sanchez9:53

      Yeah.

   6. EPEvy Poumpouras9:54

      And I have to, I have to be honest with myself. You know, in US culture, we minimize the things we do wrong. I, I'm an adjunct professor in psychology, so I'll share a little bit of, like, what I've learned from the different cultures, where if you look at an Asian culture, they're very much more about community and doing the right things for the whole community, and if they do something wrong, uh, they will look at, "What did I do wrong and how can I, uh, change this?" They're a little bit more honest.

   7. CSCodie Sanchez10:20

      Hmm.

   8. EPEvy Poumpouras10:20

      In, in, um-

   9. CSCodie Sanchez10:21

      Self-reflective

   10. EPEvy Poumpouras10:22

       ... US culture, Western culture, we minimize, uh, our shortfalls. We like to minimize them. And so you wanna find a balance. Like, you don't wanna beat yourself up, 'cause I don't think that is healthy. But I think we've gone to a p- to a point where we're so extreme, "It's not my fault. It's this thing's fault. It's that thing's fault." And again, you can do that. It, it doesn't serve you, and I think it creates problems for you and struggles for you that you help to cultivate.

   11. CSCodie Sanchez10:52

       Yeah. So what would the solution be for somebody who maybe says, "I'm typically a victim, and, you know, this keeps happening to me. I keep having this. Um, I wish it would change." What are, what are the words you tell them? You say, "Sit down, do X, Y, and Z." You say, "Keep your promises to yourself." What, what is the tactical next move to break that habit of blaming everybody else?

   12. EPEvy Poumpouras11:14

       Well, the first move is to stop saying that to yourself.

   13. CSCodie Sanchez11:17

       Hmm.

   14. EPEvy Poumpouras11:18

       It's the words you feed your mind. It's like you're feeding it to your mind. Uh, just I'm not a victim. I've never used that word in my life.

   15. CSCodie Sanchez11:27

       Mm-hmm.

   16. EPEvy Poumpouras11:27

       And I, like everybody else, have gone through my share of, uh, difficulties-

   17. CSCodie Sanchez11:33

       Yeah

   18. EPEvy Poumpouras11:33

       ... and, and hardships. And again, it, it varies. You know, what, the, what bad thing I go through varies compared to other people. Like, my bad thing may be very bad for me, but for somebody else, it's like, meh, right? Or, or, or vice versa. But stop talk- Change the way you talk to yourself. So this, "I'm a victim," get rid of that. No you're not. You're nobody's prey.

5. 11:55 – 14:47

   The Role of Self-Reflection in Relationships

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras11:55

      You're nobody's prey. I am nobody's prey. Change that tone in your head. The, it always starts first with the way you speak to yourself and the way you groom your mind to think of yourself. One of the things that helped me a lot- ... is I learned to read people well. So now you w- you would say to me, "Well, that's, you have an unfair training, and you are an in- interviewer and investigator." You don't need all that. You really just need to be less talkative.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez12:24

      Mm-hmm.

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras12:24

      If you struggle with people a lot and they take advantage of you, stop talking a lot. So there's a couple of reasons why. One reason is, uh, I want you to gather intelligence. You gotta think of it like you're an in- intel gatherer. So when you're talking, you're not gathering anything. You're gathering zero. So you wanna get good read on them, let them reveal. Give people space to reveal themselves. So that's one. So now I'm reading you and getting you. I always reflect back. I'm like a mirror. Tell me about that. Oh, no kidding, tell me about you, especially if I'm in the dark with something. So that's one. The other thing is when you're talking, it's very hard to read people. It's a high cognitive load. So the more quiet you can be, the better you're gonna be at picking up cues. And even though you can't articulate what that person did that you don't like, you feel it.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez13:13

      Yeah.

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras13:13

      You feel it. Just the other day, somebody was telling me about something about someone else, and they're like, "I just don't feel right with this person, but I keep engaging them because I can't articulate what the reason is." And I'm like, "No, you need to listen to that, because you're picking something up. You just may not have the skill set yet to define what that is, that cue or that, the words or tone or whatever that is they're doing that caused this hiccup for you. But you need to follow it."

   6. CSCodie Sanchez13:42

      Yeah.

   7. EPEvy Poumpouras13:42

      Lo- lighten your load. When you go quiet, it's a lower cognitive load. That's why when we did interviewers, excuse me, interviews, I was a polygraph examiner with the US Secret Service, I never did criminal interviews alone. Never. Um, I always had a partner, and here's why. And we would dec- we would say, "I'm gonna be primary," or, "You're gonna be primary, I'm gonna be secondary." And the reason why was because I'm talking to my, my, my person, my subject, I'm, my load is high, so I'm missing things. I, I'm h- trying to figure out what to say, how to say it, read you at the same time, listen to your responses. What should I say next? Oh, oh no, how should I shape this question if I follow up with this? Is there an issue here? But this person here who's sitting quietly next to me is picking up all the things that I'm missing. And so what we would do is we actually had chairs with wheels on them. And so, and these have wheels, so when I would get stuck, I would organically just wheel back, and it was the cue for my secondary to wheel up and jump in, and then they would

6. 14:47 – 17:55

   Reading People and Gathering Intelligence

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras14:47

      pick up all the things that I missed. And they would say, "Earlier on, you mentioned this. Could you tell me a little bit about that?" That's why being quiet's so powerful. It lightens your load. So if you f- if a person feels very overwhelmed or they feel that they're being kind of taken for a ride over and over again, go quiet and really let people reveal themselves. And then the other thing is don't crush so hard. When you meet someone, and let's say you really like them, just don't go all the way in.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez15:17

      Mm-hmm.

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras15:17

      Don't crush so hard like it d- and don't chase the like. We like it when people like us, right? You get the dopamine hit. Who doesn't wanna be liked? But the thing is, not everybody is meant to be, is gonna be in alignment and in harmony with you.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez15:30

      Mm-hmm.

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras15:31

      And so again, they can be nice, but their value system, belief system, agendas in life are different than yours, and that's gonna lead to bumps later on. And so you will save yourself sometimes a lot of pain and hardship if you don't like so hard.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez15:48

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think the first time I realized that was when I started having business partners, and I wasn't very good at picking them. And I would, I would crush too hard, too fast, and, um, and then I would feel bad for pulling back. You know, I would have that little flare, that little thing in my stomach where I thought, "Oof, I don't, we're out of alignment and some- something's off." But we were too far in. Now I'm like, "What am I gonna do? Pull away? No longer talk to this person?" So this whole inner dialogue. And Chris, my husband, said something great to me, which was, um, he's like, "People are hard, uh, to conceal over time." And he said, "Especially people are hard to conceal in the evening." And I don't know if this is true, 'cause we should talk about your time with interrogations and lie detections, but he was saying that one of the favorite things that he liked to do when he did his job, uh, in the military was you would, he wouldn't ask the hard questions in the morning, you know, when a coffee was happening with a subject that they were interested in. It would typically be, be in the evening, after, like, they were together for a long day. Lots of stuff was happening. They weren't exactly sure, you know, when the next coffee would come, when the next water... And that's when the person would kind of reveal. They'd be tired. It would be hard to keep up a veneer. And I thought that was really clever, um, because, you know, everybody kind of looks better with a fresh cup of coffee. But with, with you in particular, um, God, some of your work on interrogation and lie detection I thought was so interesting. Um, I was wondering if you had any stories about a time you caught someone lying and how you could actually tell that they were.

   7. EPEvy Poumpouras17:21

      It was an applicant for a job.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez17:23

      Mm.

   9. EPEvy Poumpouras17:24

      And he was having a hard time passing his polygraph. Uh, he was being polygraphed for... In the US Secret Service, to be an agent, you have to take a polygraph and pass it.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez17:34

       Mm.

   11. EPEvy Poumpouras17:34

       And it's a hard thing for some people. And so this applicant, who's, like, a football player, um, very well-liked by everybody, takes his first polygraph. He doesn't fail it. He doesn't pass it. He's what's inconclusive.

   12. CSCodie Sanchez17:49

       Oh.

   13. EPEvy Poumpouras17:50

       And I'm asked to come in to give him a fresh face, because we would

7. 17:55 – 20:37

   The Nature of Predators in Business and Life

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras17:55

      have this, this rule, you never wanted the same person to interview you a second time. You want a clean face. So this young man in the interview was telling me about, you go through, I can't give too much away, but in the polygraph for the US Secret Service, you ask them what ... crimes they've committed in life.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez18:12

      Hmm.

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras18:12

      And most people will tell you, "No, I've never done anything." Well, I get very specific and granular, and I go through each crime. And often people are like, "No, I've never been arrested." And you know, I was like, "That's not what I asked you. You can commit a crime and get away with it." In fact, in the-

   4. CSCodie Sanchez18:25

      Mm

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras18:25

      ... US, the data shows 80% of crime goes unsolved. We have a lot of crime. So as I'm speaking to him, somehow, without getting too much in the weeds, he started to reveal to me a date he went on, a young woman, with a woman, while he was in college, and that he had been intimate with her, but then after the fact she left very upset. So I hear this and I'm, "Okay, this is bothering him. Why?" And I had him talk me through the date, and then I had him talk me carefully through their intimacy and how that transpired. And you know, in that he revealed, "I held her wrists down. She was very upset. She was c- crying." She, how she left. And without him saying rape, he described to me what would be considered a rape.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez19:24

      Wow.

   7. EPEvy Poumpouras19:25

      So he never said it, but what he did is he gave admissions. "I held her wrists down. She said it hurt. Uh, she was crying. She left in tears." And there were other things he shared. All these things together, when you put them together, paint that picture of this is what he did to her. And so that's how I knew what he had done.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez19:57

      Wow.

   9. EPEvy Poumpouras19:57

      So a- actually, I never, I, I can't recall at the moment, I don't think I even pollied him. I got all the admissions, and I knew in that moment, I'm like, "He can't. It's not gonna happen for him." You know, and nice guy.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez20:11

       Wow.

   11. EPEvy Poumpouras20:11

       Very nice guy. He seemed super nice in the chair, but you could see he's having this moment of looking back and thinking, "What did I do?" And but he's telling me the story through his lens.

   12. CSCodie Sanchez20:24

       Yeah.

   13. EPEvy Poumpouras20:24

       Through his lens. He's like, "Well, you know, she..." And, "She said no." I'm like, "How many times did she say no?" "She said no the whole time." And so all these different pieces. Um, and that would be...

8. 20:37 – 23:51

   Negotiation Skills and Communication

   1. EPEvy Poumpouras20:37

      tho- those are very good examples of don't wait for people to tell you, "I did this," or, "I did that." They give you what's called admissions.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez20:45

      Mm.

   3. EPEvy Poumpouras20:45

      And they're little peeks behind the veil to show you. But what you have to do, and what I learned to do and I still do, is when they give you a little peek, ask them a question that helps the curtain get pulled back a little bit more. Don't just let it go. So like what I did with him was, "Okay, when you held her wrists, what did she say?" Um, "Okay, when you..." And you, I would always use the words they would give me. So never in that interview did I say the word rape, um, or that you violated her. I used his words because it made him more comfortable to say more. I, I reflected back. It's called reflecting language, and it's something you can use with anybody because it makes people feel a little bit more that you're in harmony with them. So when you speak to me, I'll reflect language you used back to show you I'm listening to you. Um, and admissions are powerful. Everyone's always look for the confession in whatever somebody does to you. I want him to tell me he did this-

   4. CSCodie Sanchez21:46

      Mm

   5. EPEvy Poumpouras21:46

      ... or she did that, or they stole that money, or they cheated on me. You don't need that. You need the admissions to put a picture together. You don't need to be right, and they don't even need to know that you know. It's for you to know so that you can make sound decisions for yourself.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez22:06

      Yeah, because you're right. A lot of times people these days will say, um, "I need them to fully admit it. I need, I need-

   7. EPEvy Poumpouras22:13

      Why?

   8. CSCodie Sanchez22:13

      ... to get through this, and I'll be fully healed when they say this."

   9. EPEvy Poumpouras22:16

      You will never be [laughs] ...

   10. CSCodie Sanchez22:18

       Right?

   11. EPEvy Poumpouras22:18

       You will not be fully healed, i- it, because there's no such, there's no such thing as being fully healed.

   12. CSCodie Sanchez22:25

       Mm-hmm.

   13. EPEvy Poumpouras22:25

       You recover, and you become resilient, and you bounce back. I believe in that, and I b- i- i- you can take what's happened to you, but if you're looking to heal, by the time you heal, if you're even able to, like the next slap in the face is gonna come.

   14. CSCodie Sanchez22:37

       Yeah.

   15. EPEvy Poumpouras22:37

       And then the next slap in the face. So you're spending your whole life healing. It's just gonna be, you know, life is a r- revolving door of just people that are gonna come in your life, and some of them are gonna be knuckleheads, and they're just gonna like hit you and crush you, uh, knock you down, and you just have to become resilient and push back. So I don't, I think people also, this whole heal thing, it's not fair to people because I also know a lot of people that think something's wrong with me because I can't fully heal from what happened to, to my, to me, and sometimes the stories are so egregious where I'm like, how could you ever fully heal from that? I appreciate the obstacles that I've gone through. I'm not saying they don't hurt, but all I'm saying is it's not fair to tell people y- fully heal, and then, then people feel inadequate because they can't fully heal. You don't need to heal to be resilient. Those two things are not the same thing.

   16. CSCodie Sanchez23:37

       Yeah, and I mean, you have been through some serious things. I mean, you were on scene at 9/11 by the World Trade Centers, um, as far as I read online, and you know,

9. 23:51 – 26:45

   The Importance of Preparation

   1. CSCodie Sanchez23:51

      not only were you there and chose to run towards explosions, but it kind of was happening all around you. So it's, many people could have been through something like that and said, "I'm a victim, and this is what happened to me, and I could remember all that," and still you chose not to do that.

   2. EPEvy Poumpouras24:07

      Here's the thing. When you relive a bad experience or even a bad fight or a bad anything, it's rumination, right? And again, I'm gonna go back to my psychology teaching as an adjunct. When you ruminate over something, you notice how sometimes it can be addicting.

   3. CSCodie Sanchez24:25

      Yeah.

   4. EPEvy Poumpouras24:25

      It actually gives you the same high, it actually activates the p- same part of the brain that gets activated when you do coke, and it almost creates... It, it, it, it, it activates that part of the brain. And so for folks to hear that, it's like, no, like, that's why you kinda get almost, like, a- sort of addicted to, like, playing this record, playing this record. And if you seek therapy, there's nothing wrong with it. There's some people that really genuinely need it. I always tell people, "Go find somebody who's helping you move forward, not retell your pain." I actually had dinner the other night with a woman, and she had been... Years ago here in New York City, there was a Long Island Railroad shooting, and he... There was a man, a gunman, who opened fire on people on the Long Island Rail- Railroad. It was many, many years ago. And she and I were talking, 'cause I used to intern for a woman named Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy, and McCarthy's husband was on that train. He was killed. Her sh- her son was shot, and he was paralyzed.

   5. CSCodie Sanchez25:25

      Wow.

   6. EPEvy Poumpouras25:25

      And the woman I happened to be having dinner with, unbeknownst to me, it was a group dinner, says, "You know, I know Carolyn." And I said, "How do you know her?" She said, "'Cause I was on that train. I was shot twice."

   7. CSCodie Sanchez25:35

      Wow.

   8. EPEvy Poumpouras25:36

      And I said, "You know, I'm very sorry to hear that. I'm glad you're okay." And we started talking, and she used to tell me, "You know, every year we had this dinner and get-together." And, and she said, "I stopped going." I said, "Why?" She's like, "I didn't wanna relive it." She's like, "It wasn't helping me to relive something horrible that happened to me." She's like, "I wanted to let it go."

   9. CSCodie Sanchez25:57

      Rare, and so important. Most founders think they have a traffic problem, so they throw money at ads, more content, more clicks, but the truth is your site visitors aren't the problem. Your follow-up is. If someone visits your store, adds to cart, then disappears, most platforms just let them leave. Omnisend doesn't. It triggers abandoned cart flows, win-back emails, and even browse abandonment messages all on autopilot. It's not just email. It's email plus SMS with smart segmentation built in. You can trigger a discount code to someone who clicked but didn't buy. You can follow up with a new product after someone made a purchase. You can even A/B test everything to find what actually converts, and you don't need five different apps to do it. Omnisend gives you all the tools without the Frankenstein stack. If you're bleeding leads and calling it low conversion, stop. You

10. 26:45 – 29:50

    The Journey to Becoming Bulletproof

    1. CSCodie Sanchez26:45

       don't need more eyeballs. You need a machine that closes. That's what Omnisend is. You know, eh, I think about those, those moments, like the scary moments in our lives and whether we choose to lean into them or not. You've kind of built an entire career around leaning into them, it seems like to me.

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras27:00

       By mistake. [laughs]

    3. CSCodie Sanchez27:01

       Like, I think about you, because you were a, a policewoman.

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras27:05

       I started in the NYPD as a recruit, yes.

    5. CSCodie Sanchez27:07

       And so you also kind of would sit across the table from criminals and from predators-

    6. EPEvy Poumpouras27:13

       Yeah

    7. CSCodie Sanchez27:13

       ... and from what I would anticipate as scary people. What are predators actually like? What are criminals like?

    8. EPEvy Poumpouras27:21

       You would think for the most part that these were just, like, apex predators or they would look like it, and they didn't. I remember one interview I did. It was a father. He had three kids, and there had been... I wanna be careful how I say it 'cause it's delicate, but basically, uh, child pornography on his devices, and the police needed help understanding what was going on. I interview him. What he ended up doing is... He looked like nothing. Like, he looked like, uh, 160 pounds soaking wet, maybe lighter. I thought, I was like, "I could take you."

    9. CSCodie Sanchez27:58

       [laughs]

    10. EPEvy Poumpouras27:58

        And I'm, you know... But when he walked into the room, you would... I was always surprised to see what walk in the room. And, like, what he used to do, which was clever, which a lot of them do, he used his kids to get them to bring other kids to their home.

    11. CSCodie Sanchez28:14

        Oof.

    12. EPEvy Poumpouras28:15

        And they would go downstairs in the basement, and he would shoot videos with all these little kids. And so you would think when I tell you that, you're waiting for this, like, apex predator to walk in that looks it. You would never pick him out. In fact, he looked like somebody who would be bullied.

    13. CSCodie Sanchez28:31

        Mm.

    14. EPEvy Poumpouras28:33

        And that's why I always caution people, like, bad people, and I, I always be careful with that word. Like, you... It's not about what people look like. You don't know what's in some s- inside someone, you know? Uh, we had this saying in, in, in the polygraph, in the interview room, like, anybody's capable of anything at any given moment in time if given the opportunity.

    15. CSCodie Sanchez28:55

        Wow.

    16. EPEvy Poumpouras28:57

        So what I would... The way to protect yourself without being cynical, I- it's not about being cynical, is assess people's behavior. That's why you can't look at someone. I always say don't label the person, like labels are for clothing. Label the behavior, and, like, be quiet and give people time to see what they're about.

    17. CSCodie Sanchez29:18

        Yeah.

    18. EPEvy Poumpouras29:18

        And they will reveal it. But they... People who prey don't look like prey. And you know what's also interesting, what I larked- learned about predators, do you know who they prey on?

    19. CSCodie Sanchez29:28

        Mm.

    20. EPEvy Poumpouras29:29

        Kids, number one, 'cause they're easy to prey on. Women, number two, because as much as I may not want to say it, but it's just the truth, physically, biologically, like, we are, in a sense, the other gender, male gender, is just physically stronger than us, so they can to some degree overpower

11. 29:50 – 32:42

    The Power of Adaptability

    1. EPEvy Poumpouras29:50

       us. Depends, you know, not everybody, but for the most part. So there's that physical thing there. And then the elderly.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez29:57

       Wow.

    3. EPEvy Poumpouras29:57

       Three populations that are preyed upon the most by predators. So if I tell you that, then what does that tell you about a predator?

    4. CSCodie Sanchez30:05

       They're pretty weak.

    5. EPEvy Poumpouras30:06

       Exactly. I'm not picking on the guy that's gonna give me a run for my money. I want easy prey. So a big part of it is your mindset. Like, if people think, and this is for anybody, it's like if people feel like you got a little bit of crazy They're gonna think twice. [laughs]

    6. CSCodie Sanchez30:25

       That's so true. [laughs]

    7. EPEvy Poumpouras30:26

       I'm sorry. It's true. You want people to be like, I'm not telling you to go around being crazy person.

    8. CSCodie Sanchez30:31

       [laughs]

    9. EPEvy Poumpouras30:32

       You know?

    10. CSCodie Sanchez30:32

        I listen to Evy. [laughs]

    11. EPEvy Poumpouras30:33

        But, but I always, you just want people to feel I, I don't wanna cross a line with her-

    12. CSCodie Sanchez30:41

        Mm

    13. EPEvy Poumpouras30:41

        ... or with him or whoever. Just let them feel it, and that has to do with respect. It has to do with the way you carry yourself. It has to do with what you, what you emanate out there.

    14. CSCodie Sanchez30:51

        Yeah, I wanna get into that because you have really specific actions on that, that you do. Um, and I think it applies-

    15. EPEvy Poumpouras30:57

        I thought you were gonna speak about business-

    16. CSCodie Sanchez30:58

        Well, I was gonna say-

    17. EPEvy Poumpouras30:59

        ... Codie

    18. CSCodie Sanchez31:00

        ... it does apply to business too because there are business predators everywhere.

    19. EPEvy Poumpouras31:04

        Yes.

    20. CSCodie Sanchez31:04

        And they also go after the people that look like they're gonna fold, you know? And, and I think there's a lot of reasons why, if you're pretty serious in business, there's a great reason to, like, never settle a case if somebody comes after you and you think that it's ridiculous and that they're just trying to be litigious. It's like, no, no, no. I will go and spend much more than it would ever take to settle with you because I refuse to allow this precedent to happen. And I think in business you have to kind of show that you're really not to be trifled with, and that you're not scared of coming out against somebody because bullies exist in business like everywhere else. In fact, maybe more because a lot of people think that business is a zero-sum game, and in order for me to win, you have to lose. And so those people can be a whole different type of predator, and if you come out and, you know... And to be fair, it happens a little bit more to women, I think, than men because they don't... You know, a lot of times, I have a couple guys who are very public and big public figures too, and, uh, you know, the things that come after them are slightly less than they do me. And so I have had to in some ways come out and really sort of establish myself and say, like, "I'm not gonna tolerate that. You're using my IP. That's infringement. That's liable. Uh, this is, this is your chance to have a lawsuit. I don't care if you post it online about it. It's no problem." And so it's unemotional. Um, but it's like, you know, I, I kinda, I think I've gotten comfortable enough with it by this idea of, like, some form of, not that they're bad people, but just justice in the instance. Like, if I can handle going after somebody that is operating in a bad manner or in bad faith, and I have enough money and I have enough, like, capacity to deal with it, but I don't just 'cause

12. 32:42 – 1:21:01

    Conclusion and Future Endeavors

    1. CSCodie Sanchez32:42

       I don't want to, then they are, they are gonna go after the next version of the child, the elderly, the woman. They're gonna go after somebody who's, like, an easier target next. And so I do think as a good businessperson you have, like, some responsibility to be like, "No, no, no, I'm gonna bury you if you act like that," because we don't allow that in society. There are, like, repercussions to negative actions, and that's, like, why we have the society we have. But the part that I was curious about for you is I, I read somewhere about a study that talked about the way that predators choose their prey, and I thought it was so applicable for probably how business predators prey too. Do you remember that study about-

    2. EPEvy Poumpouras33:16

       Yeah. There's multiple studies.

    3. CSCodie Sanchez33:18

       Okay.

    4. EPEvy Poumpouras33:18

       But essentially, like, the... Anybody who picks prey or even targets, they look at the person, they look who can go easy. They look at, they look for opportunity.

    5. CSCodie Sanchez33:27

       Mm-hmm.

    6. EPEvy Poumpouras33:28

       And if you give them a suita- a, you know, a suitable target, I have to have a suitable target to prey.

    7. CSCodie Sanchez33:35

       Yeah.

    8. EPEvy Poumpouras33:35

       If I don't have a suitable target, I'm not gonna take it. So you, you wanna think about that. Like, am I giving you a suitable target?

    9. CSCodie Sanchez33:43

       Mm-hmm.

    10. EPEvy Poumpouras33:44

        So I can negotiate with you, but in the back of my mind, I'm not a suitable target. So I wanna make sure that person feels I'm not a suitable target, and I'm with you. I don't really go after... I'm busy.

    11. CSCodie Sanchez33:56

        [laughs]

    12. EPEvy Poumpouras33:57

        Right? Right?

    13. CSCodie Sanchez33:58

        Yeah.

    14. EPEvy Poumpouras33:58

        I got things going on.

    15. CSCodie Sanchez33:59

        Yeah.

    16. EPEvy Poumpouras33:59

        But there may have been, like, a couple of times where somebody may have crossed into my lane where I'm like, "No, that's wrong on principle-

    17. CSCodie Sanchez34:06

        Mm-hmm

    18. EPEvy Poumpouras34:06

        ... and I'm gonna make sure you know it."

    19. CSCodie Sanchez34:08

        Yeah.

    20. EPEvy Poumpouras34:08

        And so, um, even in business, and I agree with you 'cause it's like, no, a hard no. You think, you can't do this and think twice. People afraid. They, when they think you're not gonna bite back, it's... A lot of times we think, like, if I just mitigate, mitigate, and just leave it alone, I can control the monster, or I can-

    21. CSCodie Sanchez34:32

        Mm

    22. EPEvy Poumpouras34:32

        ... control this person. No. Like, when you know somebody is, like, not good, the more you pull back, the more dominant they become.

    23. CSCodie Sanchez34:40

        Yeah.

    24. EPEvy Poumpouras34:40

        You create more space for them to fill.

    25. CSCodie Sanchez34:42

        Mm-hmm.

    26. EPEvy Poumpouras34:43

        So I do think there's strategy in avoiding conflict, but when you create dynamics where you give this person so much space to kinda dominate over you, and then it ha- and it's, you have to be careful because it can happen incrementally and over time, and then you're in this really subservient role and you're, and you're thinking, "How did I get here?" And now you can't get out from under it, and business is like that. Just because there are, the behaviors that people may have in crime doesn't mean I have to be a criminal to hurt and prey on people.

    27. CSCodie Sanchez35:16

        Yeah.

    28. EPEvy Poumpouras35:17

        Uh, I can manifest that in business. It's a power trip.

    29. CSCodie Sanchez35:21

        Mm-hmm.

    30. EPEvy Poumpouras35:22

        It's a power trip. Like, serial killers or serial rapists or people that do that stuff, it's a, it's a power trip.

Episode duration: 1:21:02