Meghan, the Duchess of Sussex, on Life and Business Beyond the Royal Spotlight | The Circuit

Meghan Markle 0:00 [upbeat music]

Meghan Markle 0:02 Oh, I just got the heat from that.

Emily Chang 0:05 I want the With Love take on, like, why does this taste so good? What's so special about this?

Meghan Markle 0:10 It's the squishy bun.

Emily Chang 0:11 Oh, my God.

Meghan Markle 0:11 It's the crunch in the onion. It's the texture of the meat. It's... They're perfect. [laughs] It's kind of a perfect meal-

Emily Chang 0:19 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 0:19 ... and I'm thrilled that you're having it with me. [record scratch]

Emily Chang 0:22 [upbeat music] Yep, this is me, in Santa Barbara, devouring smash burgers with a duchess. This is Meghan, the Duchess of Sussex, one of the most talked about women in the world. You know, or you may think you know, Meghan Markle the royal, the tabloid subject, the actress. Then there's what the media has told you about Meghan the divider, who traded the trappings of life in the monarchy for the comfy coast of California. But on this episode of The Circuit, we'll try to understand Meghan the businesswoman. Just this year she's launched a Netflix show, a podcast, and a lifestyle brand that sells jam, rosé, and those much-talked about flower sprinkles. It's a new chapter. So fittingly, our morning started with a walk through a bookstore, a location in the latest season of her Netflix series. We talked big decisions for her business.

Meghan Markle 1:14 And suddenly the conversation goes from a few thousand jars and lids to, "We need to do a purchase or- order of a million."

Emily Chang 1:21 I got her response to feedback on her show, the good and the bad.

Meghan Markle 1:25 Are they saying negative things and then secretly going home and making single skillet spaghetti?

Emily Chang 1:30 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 1:30 Possibly.

Emily Chang 1:31 And things got real, all before noon on a Tuesday. When do you feel the least Duchess of Sussex?

Meghan Markle 1:38 Oh, my God. Standing here eating a smash burger with you-

Emily Chang 1:40 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 1:41 ... and being asked these questions. [laughs]

Emily Chang 1:43 The big question is, can Meghan have a second act as an entrepreneur and a taste maker? Can she succeed on her own terms? And will a highly skeptical world even let her? If you could choose one thing for people to know the truth about you, what would that one thing be?

Meghan Markle 2:01 The one thing. Oh, gosh. What's the one thing? [upbeat music]

Emily Chang 2:07 [waves crashing] [gentle music] Hi.

Meghan Markle 2:21 Hi. This is my friend's place. This is Godmothers.

Emily Chang 2:22 It is so beautiful.

Meghan Markle 2:25 Oh, gosh, yeah, it's-

Emily Chang 2:26 Wow

Meghan Markle 2:26 ... I mean, they did a spectacular job with it.

Emily Chang 2:28 So-

Meghan Markle 2:28 This is their wall of godmothers who lit the way.

Emily Chang 2:30 I love it.

Meghan Markle 2:31 Yeah, and you'll love the space in here. I mean, they have such a beautiful curation of fantastic books. Hi, there. And the kids' section upstairs-

Emily Chang 2:37 Okay, yeah

Meghan Markle 2:38 ... is amazing.

Emily Chang 2:38 Oh, my Go-

Meghan Markle 2:38 [laughs]

Emily Chang 2:39 I love a kids' section. What's your guilty pleasure? Are you, like, a thrillers?

Meghan Markle 2:45 Oh, my gosh.

Emily Chang 2:45 Trashy romance?

Meghan Markle 2:47 Well, I spend so much time reading children's books. I, you have four kids.

Emily Chang 2:49 Yeah. Yes, I do. I do.

Meghan Markle 2:51 So, you know, our kids are four and six, and so at the end of the night I do that, and then I haven't really, I haven't really gotten into a book in a long time.

Emily Chang 3:00 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 3:01 Um.

Emily Chang 3:01 I know. It's hard.

Meghan Markle 3:02 Yeah.

Emily Chang 3:02 I, I also read a lot of-

Meghan Markle 3:02 Kids' books, parenting books

Emily Chang 3:03 ... children's books. [laughs]

Meghan Markle 3:04 [laughs]

Emily Chang 3:04 Parenting, self-help.

Meghan Markle 3:06 Yeah.

Emily Chang 3:06 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 3:06 And then my late night indulgence now is just a lot of Duolingo.

Emily Chang 3:09 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 3:10 Do you ever do that?

Emily Chang 3:11 Good for you.

Meghan Markle 3:11 Oh, it's great.

Emily Chang 3:12 Um, when I can find the time. What are you Duolingo-ing?

Meghan Markle 3:15 I'm Duolingo-ing French.

Emily Chang 3:17 Yeah?

Meghan Markle 3:17 I committed to relearning it.

Emily Chang 3:18 Oh, my gosh.

Meghan Markle 3:18 And so, yeah.

Emily Chang 3:19 I would love to do that.

Meghan Markle 3:20 It's really fun.

Emily Chang 3:22 So I saw that you were at the opening of this place with Oprah.

Meghan Markle 3:24 Mm-hmm.

Emily Chang 3:25 And you talked about how bookstores felt like a safe space.

Meghan Markle 3:29 Yeah.

Emily Chang 3:29 Tell me about that.

Meghan Markle 3:30 You know, I think bookstores, you can find your story there. You can find some version of your story or what feels true to you in it, and within all those pages it's just such a great space for discovery. And I think that makes people feel safe. [gentle music]

Emily Chang 3:48 Morning.

Meghan Markle 3:48 Good to see you. Morning. I'd love a little latte. You're welcome. How are you doing? Doing good. How are you? [laughs] Good. Very early. It's misty today. I know. What would you like?

Emily Chang 3:55 Can I get an oat milk chai tea latte?

Meghan Markle 3:57 Of course. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, great. All right. Thank you. Okay.

Emily Chang 4:00 So what is it about Montecito? Like, what made this place feel like home more than other places?

Meghan Markle 4:05 Well, we moved here five years ago. And we're just so happy because we can take our kids to school-

Emily Chang 4:11 Mm

Meghan Markle 4:11 ... and have a really supported, sweet life, running around and doing the things that I think everyone maybe as part of your day-to-day-

Emily Chang 4:19 Yeah

Meghan Markle 4:19 ... but if you don't think about what life would be like without those moments-

Emily Chang 4:22 Right

Meghan Markle 4:23 ... it's easy to take them for granted. So I love it. We have such a beautiful, embracing community. Um, yeah, and been able to really create and dream here.

Emily Chang 4:31 Yeah. All right. Coffee, coffee?

Meghan Markle 4:33 Yes, yes.

Emily Chang 4:38 How important is it to own your own story?

Meghan Markle 4:42 It's the most important thing in the world. Mm-hmm.

Emily Chang 4:45 Do you feel like you own your own story?

Meghan Markle 4:47 I know I do.

Emily Chang 4:47 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 4:48 And if you know me, you know that I do. I think there are always going to be moments where you feel as though a story is being told about some caricature of you-

Emily Chang 4:56 Mm

Meghan Markle 4:56 ... that actually has nothing to do with you.

Emily Chang 4:58 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 4:58 And that can be really hard to reconcile.

Emily Chang 5:00 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 5:00 But I think the more comfortable you get with yourself, certainly age helps.

Emily Chang 5:05 Yeah. [laughs]

Meghan Markle 5:05 I'll be 44. It's gr- it's great. It's great. And I, um, and I just think there really is a lot of value to when you anchor into your own knowing-

Emily Chang 5:16 Mm-hmm

Meghan Markle 5:16 ... then you're telling your own story.

Emily Chang 5:18 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 5:18 You're telling your own story and how you show up in the world, what you do, you actually don't need to say anything.

Emily Chang 5:22 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 5:23 You can show who you are.

Emily Chang 5:26 People think they know who you are. Your story has been told a thousand ways.

Meghan Markle 5:30 Mm.

Emily Chang 5:30 But I wanna hear it from you. So when you were 11 years old, you protested an ad that you thought was sexist.

Meghan Markle 5:36 Um-

Emily Chang 5:36 Oh, and I found it.

Meghan Markle 5:38 [laughs] With Linda Ellerbee.

Emily Chang 5:39 I want you... Yes. I want you to watch it.

Meghan Markle 5:42 Oh, gosh, I remember these, my classmates, too. Let's see.

5:44 ... commercial and I knew something had to be done because I was furious.

5:48 I still make that face. [laughs]

Emily Chang 5:50 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 5:50 June are fighting greasy pots and pans with five- And I said, "Wait a minute, how could somebody say that? I think I'll write a letter."

5:57 I did. I wrote a few.

5:59 She wrote her second letter.

5:59 Yep.

Emily Chang 6:00 Tell me about that girl and how she grew up.

Meghan Markle 6:03 Yeah, I grew up in LA, and I had a great childhood. That time was really fascinating because that day that we were watching that commercial at school was also when the LA riots were happening. [shouting] And so you have this contrast of the city was going on lockdown. We're very young and don't fully understand what's going on. It was a very tense time in Los Angeles with race relations. And they put on the TV because all of us kids had to stay there until our parents could come and pick us up. That commercial happens to come on, and I remember, like, the boys in the classroom said, "Yeah, that's where women belong, in the kitchen." And that's really what upset me. It was a very turbulent time in our city and a lot of uncertainty, but the one thing I was certain on, you know, in all of this, was that's wrong. Let's do something about it. And it was just so empowering to know that at a really young age, your voice could be heard, well before social media, where everyone doesn't just have a soapbox. And then I went into middle school feeling very confident because I was able to affect change for good.

Emily Chang 7:10 That is to say, that girl has been in you since the beginning.

Meghan Markle 7:13 Yes. I think, I think our character, who we are at your core, I don't think that shifts. I think a lot of behaviors and habits and roles that you end up playing in your life can bring out the best or, or worst in a lot of people. But you're still who you are.

Emily Chang 7:32 Is there an inherent tension in trying to be relatable while also being a duchess?

Meghan Markle 7:39 [laughs] No. I don't find... I'm just being myself. So I think probably it was different several years ago, where I couldn't be as vocal, and I had to wear nude pantyhose all the time.

Emily Chang 7:57 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 7:57 [laughs] Let's be honest. That was not very myself. I hadn't seen pantyhose since movies in the '80s, when they came in the little egg. That felt a little bit inauthentic, but that's a silly example. But it is an example of when you're able to dress the way you wanna dress and you're able to say the things that are true and you're able to show up in a space really organically and authentically, that's being comfortable in your own skin. And that's, of course, had different chapters in my life. But right now, no, I don't feel, I don't feel that I need to prove anything. [upbeat music]

Emily Chang 8:30 That said, Meghan and Harry are trying to establish themselves on new ground, and they're taking some big swings. After coming to California, they dropped a hit tell-all documentary series on Netflix. But a podcast Meghan launched with Spotify had a short run. She returned to the screen in March with a show, With Love, Meghan, where she, alongside friends and celebrity guests, shares her tips for cooking, gardening, and hosting. It was green-lit for a just-released Season 2. What's your vibe on launch day? Are you zen, or are you, like, gritting your teeth?

Meghan Markle 9:02 Oh, no, no, no. Very zen.

Emily Chang 9:03 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 9:03 Because it's done.

Emily Chang 9:04 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 9:05 It's done. So I think I, I sort of approach that with anything that I pour my heart into and create, is you've done everything you can, and then you have to let it go.

Emily Chang 9:17 How much preparation would go into a With Love shoot? Like, are you memorizing recipes? Are you sharpening your knife skills? Are there hours of taste tests?

Meghan Markle 9:25 That's a great question.

Emily Chang 9:26 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 9:26 A lot of prep, and a huge crew, which I think people often forget. That was a crew of 80 people. So most of it in the pre-production was inspired by recipes that I love to make, who I was entertaining, and then test it all out.

Emily Chang 9:40 Ooh.

Meghan Markle 9:40 Yeah, it's a lot.

Emily Chang 9:41 The show hit the top 10.

Meghan Markle 9:43 Yeah. [laughs]

Emily Chang 9:44 Globally.

Meghan Markle 9:45 Globally.

Emily Chang 9:46 And yet there were mixed reviews. I watched every episode of the Meghan Markle Netflix show so you don't have to. Today my guest is a dear friend who I've known for about 20 years, so welcome in, Fabian. Meghan, right? Yeah. Meghan, right.

Meghan Markle 10:02 I saw so many people recreate her recipes, so, like, where is the hate coming from?

Emily Chang 10:06 How did that land for you?

Meghan Markle 10:09 I think I knew who I was trying to meet. And so if you know your audience, you know your demographic, well, they love the show. And my partners love the show, and that's why we have a Season 2 and why we have more fun coming. So I think oftentimes the negative voices, are they saying the negative things and then secretly going home and making single skillet spaghetti?

Emily Chang 10:29 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 10:30 Possibly. And that's all right. They're trying to pay their bills, and that's for them to sort out if they're comfortable doing it at someone else's detriment. From my standpoint, the intention of the show was to share more of myself, to share tips that I love in my life, and to have fun.

Emily Chang 10:44 But there's this take that you're glorifying homemaking or glorifying trad wives.

Meghan Markle 10:49 Oh, really?

Emily Chang 10:50 H- how [laughs]

Meghan Markle 10:51 That feels odd to me.

Emily Chang 10:53 Yeah, how do you respond to that?

Meghan Markle 10:54 That feels odd to me. I mean, I, I hadn't heard that. Um, but I'm really unapologetic about the fact that I... Though would it be lovely to go and churn your own butter?

Emily Chang 11:05 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 11:07 Sure. Maybe. I don't have time for that. I don't have time for that.

Emily Chang 11:11 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 11:11 And I don't think you get an extra gold star if you do that. So for me, a lot of it is, how do you show up thoughtfully? I don't have time to make dinner every night. I wish I did. I don't have time for that. I'm great at ordering takeout and plating it beautifully. And look, and yes, do I have small things where even on my kids' plates I wipe the side of the plate? Some might go, "Oh, my gosh, that's so ridiculous." For me, that's two seconds where I get to present something that looks a little bit more beautiful. I have absolutely no judgment on trad wives. If that works for them, then they should do it. But for me, I think there is an in between, and joy for me comes in finding that sweet spot in the middle. [upbeat music]

Emily Chang 11:50 This year, alongside her Netflix series, Meghan made her first move into online retail with As Ever. It's an evolution of her passion for lifestyle content, which dates back to The Tig, a blog she launched in 2014 that touted fashion, beauty, and travel tips. That shut down shortly after she started dating a prince. Meghan wouldn't share sales figures for As Ever, but so far, most of its inventory has quickly sold out. As Ever is also cooking. Just had another launch.

Meghan Markle 12:19 Yes.

Emily Chang 12:19 The rose sold out also in, in less than an hour?

Meghan Markle 12:22 44 minutes.

Emily Chang 12:24 Ah.

Meghan Markle 12:24 I was, I was shocked.

Emily Chang 12:25 How do you keep up with demand?

Meghan Markle 12:27 When you sell out that quickly, you actually... It's a double-edged sword because it's an incredible thing to happen for any small business and any startup, and at the same time you don't get the same metrics and learnings about which SKUs and products are the most coveted-

Emily Chang 12:43 Right

Meghan Markle 12:43 ... because it's all gone immediately. So then we prepped for the second seasonal drop, and 10X'd our inventory and thought for sure, for sure that would at least last for a couple weeks.

Emily Chang 12:55 Mm.

Meghan Markle 12:56 That sold out in a couple hours.

Emily Chang 12:58 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 12:58 And suddenly the conversation goes from, at the start of this year, talking about a few thousand jars and lids to we need to do a purchase or- order of a million, and that's a huge jump-

Emily Chang 13:09 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 13:09 ... in just a few months of starting a business.

Emily Chang 13:11 And the plan is to go global.

Meghan Markle 13:13 Yes. Yes, absolutely.

Emily Chang 13:15 How long does it take to develop each product? What's that process like?

Meghan Markle 13:20 Oh, goodness. I s- I exas- I'm exasperated in some ways by that [laughs] only because it is such a tedious proposition to scale your own home recipe to something at mass and maintain the same, not just quality, but the same flavor that you're able to do at home, and I think any home cook would say that. If you say, "Great, can you make your cobbler that I love?" Say, "Great, of course I can make my cobbler." "Great, can you make a million cobblers?"

Emily Chang 13:49 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 13:49 Can you teach someone how to make a million cobblers that taste just like the one that you have at home? I also have to be conscious of, you know, people who really understand canning can say the Brix method, when you're going-

Emily Chang 13:59 Mm

Meghan Markle 13:59 ... at scale. I mean, now I'm gonna get all nerdy on you. [laughs]

Emily Chang 14:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean.

Meghan Markle 14:03 And jammy with you. Um.

Emily Chang 14:05 I can tell, the details.

Meghan Markle 14:06 But there's a lot of detail in it. There's lots of tiny nuances that I don't think people would think about, and then make sure that it can come out the way that feels reflective of what I make at home.

Emily Chang 14:16 What about pricing? Like, how did you determine your pricing strategy?

Meghan Markle 14:20 Mm.

Emily Chang 14:20 Like, what are the margins?

Meghan Markle 14:21 Yes. The pricing I think is key. S- From my standpoint, I know where I came from. I remember being in high school and having my after school job, and all I wanted to do was save up to buy a shirt that said BB.

Emily Chang 14:36 [laughs] Ah, yes.

Meghan Markle 14:37 Right? [laughs]

Emily Chang 14:38 Yeah, I saw a lot of BB.

Meghan Markle 14:38 That just said BB. And if you could get the one with the rhinestone BB-

Emily Chang 14:42 Hmm

Meghan Markle 14:42 ... you really made it. And my-

Emily Chang 14:44 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 14:44 I always think about that version of me who there might be a brand or a person that you look up to and you wanna have a piece of what they're sharing in the world, and that can't be something that is out of price range. That can't be something that is so aspirational you're never gonna be able to afford it. So there is something I think really important in that the first hero product was this $9 jar of jam, which my 15-year-old self would've been able to buy, and then after you finish the jam, you could use that to put your flowers in it, the little jar, or your pens on your desk. And I like the idea of having something that just felt signature in that way, and keepsake packaging, and affordable.

Emily Chang 15:29 Celebrity brands are all the rage right now. What's gonna make yours stand out?

Meghan Markle 15:33 I think the authenticity is probably what will help it stand apart. Also, the price point. I think certainly when we're looking at economically what's happening right now, you really want things to be in a range that people can still have a piece of, whatever ends up happening with our economy. More than anything, I've just poured so much love into this brand, and I, I would say the same for so many of these celebrities who probably have dreamed of something for a long time, and at, at the same time, when they see it come to fruition, for a lot of them, are they writing copy and doing all these things that I... Maybe they are, which I think is incredible. Everyone is putting out something unique in the world, even if it feels like there's a million tequilas. I'm sure they all have a different point of view in some regard, and I really do believe that a high tide raises all boats. I believe that. I think there's room for all of us.

Emily Chang 16:20 It's a very crowded room. Celebrities like Rihanna, Selena Gomez, and Ryan Reynolds built billion-dollar businesses by capitalizing on their fame to influence consumer behavior. It's creating something of an entrepreneurial arms race in Hollywood. The most popular verticals are beauty, fashion, and alcohol. Meghan's rose, while getting good reviews, is joining a pretty packed celebrity shelf. To build a brand that endures beyond the viral launch, some celebs have partnered with operators or raised capital from outside investors.

Emily Chang 16:51 Meghan is taking a different approach. The Netflix of it all. You have a really unique relationship with them. How does it work? Like, take us behind the curtain.

Meghan Markle 16:59 Sure.

Emily Chang 17:00 Who has the last word?

Meghan Markle 17:01 Creatively, they're, they very graciously said, "No, this is your baby and this is your brand." So all creative decisions and final decisions like that end up with me. The CPG division might be newer for a lot of people to hear about. They have been doing that with a lot of shows and brands that they've had, and been in the consumables territory and market. Stranger Things, they've introduced a line of ice creams or pizzas. So they have a lot of incredible suppliers and manufacturers that they are comfortable working with, and then I'm able to try the products, work with their- those teams as well, and then sort of green light.

Emily Chang 17:35 While you can go to Netflix's website and buy Bridgerton pickleball paddles or Squid Game plushies, Meghan's jam-inspired brand is not just an extension of her series, but a separate standalone business. Do you have any backers other than Netflix?

Meghan Markle 17:49 No.

Emily Chang 17:49 Or are you looking for other investors?

Meghan Markle 17:51 At the moment, no. Netflix is my partner and investor.

Emily Chang 17:54 Why not raise money on your own, w- you know, where you might have more control, you might have more financial upside?

Meghan Markle 18:00 That had been my plan, and, and I thought that it would be great just to build out my own team and really do it purely on my terms. But then I also would say Netflix made a really compelling sell We began our relationship with Netflix five years ago purely as a production company with Archwell Productions, and we've managed to have some wonderful shows and docuseries that we're really proud of. And then with the evolution of our partnership now is them doubling down and they're supportive as ever.

Emily Chang 18:31 Just days after this interview, Netflix announced that following its initial five-year, $100 million deal with Harry and Meghan, they've signed a reportedly far less lucrative first look deal similar to the Obamas. Her ever-present critics seem to view this as yet another setback, but really what it means is Harry and Meghan can shop their shows elsewhere if Netflix doesn't bite. Recently released viewership numbers reveal With Love, Meghan did hit the top 10 initially, but ultimately only had 5.3 million views and ranked 383rd on Netflix's watch list. A season three is TBD, but Netflix is promising a holiday special with Meghan and will continue to back As Ever. Meghan said in a statement that she and Harry are proud of the new deal, which celebrates their shared vision. So what is the grand vision for As Ever? Like, what do you want it to be? What don't you want it to be?

Meghan Markle 19:26 I don't want it to feel generic. I don't want it to feel cookie cutter. I don't want it to feel, I don't want it to feel like it was phoned in.

Emily Chang 19:36 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 19:37 And I know that you, it would be impossible to feel that way 'cause I know how much time I spend on it from soup to nuts, but I want it to be something that people feel excited to have in their home and especially that people feel excited to gift.

Emily Chang 19:48 So what is the path to profitability?

Meghan Markle 19:52 Mm-hmm. The scaling is gonna be key, and certainly shifting out of D2C, not necessarily into brick-and-mortar of our own, but in finding the right retail partners that make sense to be on the shelves.

Emily Chang 20:02 Do you wanna see it at Target or Williams Sonoma or-

Meghan Markle 20:06 I think a, a key retail partner is going to be very valuable, and also look, if you look at the categories, it might not just be one. We might have exclusivity in certain ones that make sense for the consumables, but as you expand into candles or things throughout the home, where do those live that it makes sense?

Emily Chang 20:21 So between the show and As Ever, the podcast-

Meghan Markle 20:24 Yeah [laughs]

Emily Chang 20:25 ... you were-

Meghan Markle 20:25 It's been a busy year

Emily Chang 20:26 ... it's been a busy year. You were off social media for years, and now you're back on.

Meghan Markle 20:30 Yeah.

Emily Chang 20:30 Do you feel like you're sort of launching a new you or rebranding yourself?

Meghan Markle 20:34 No. I think-- How funny. No. I think I finally get to share the me that's been here for so long that people maybe haven't had the same visibility to. Coming back on Instagram was a really big decision, but also it's just been joyful. And I'm really intentional in using it as a platform to share joy and to have fun as well. And so I g- I get to play and explore. I just-

Emily Chang 21:00 Yeah

Meghan Markle 21:00 ... I play in public.

Emily Chang 21:01 [Instrumental music] Meghan has now spent nine years on a very public, often unrelenting world stage. In 2018, she was the most Googled person in the world, for better or for worse.

Speaker 21:15 My wife in 2018 was the most trolled person in the world. Um, so like, so there, there was, there was a lived experience in that. But at no point did we suddenly think, "Okay, well, let's go and let's, you know, let's take, take this industry on."

Emily Chang 21:30 Do you feel like it's hard to sort of show your whole self?

Meghan Markle 21:34 I waffle with some of my choices before I make them. I'm gen- generally very decisive, but social media's a great barometer for this for me because putting out a video of myself nine months pregnant-

Emily Chang 21:45 Yeah

Meghan Markle 21:46 ... was a really big choice, but I also wanted people to see themselves in my story, in our story-

Emily Chang 21:53 Mm

Meghan Markle 21:53 ... and to be able to show that with all the noise that might happen in the world on a day-to-day basis, real life is still happening behind the scenes, really real life.

Emily Chang 22:02 But you put that out there, and some people, like, they, they tear it apart, you know?

Meghan Markle 22:06 I'm sure they did. I don't know.

Emily Chang 22:07 It's-

Meghan Markle 22:07 But I also protect myself from seeing that.

Emily Chang 22:09 It's been interesting preparing for this interview because every day you search for your name, and there's like 1,000 different news stories about, about 1,000 different things.

Meghan Markle 22:17 Yes.

Emily Chang 22:18 And so-

Meghan Markle 22:18 But I have the-- I guess the distinction there is those people don't know me, and they're not talking about me, and that's a really hard place to come to g- to terms with.

Emily Chang 22:28 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 22:28 But that's the truth, so if you can really compartmentalize it and go, "Oh, right. There is a very, very powerful machine, and it's all about generating income."

Emily Chang 22:39 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 22:40 Those stories aren't just appearing because it's fun. Clickbait has a huge financial implication. And so if I'm part of an SEO and that gets them more clickbait, then yes, they're incentivized to churn out as many stories, false or damaging or whatnot, to feed the beast because that's paying them, and I think a lot of people forget the economic element of it. And I think from my standpoint, that's why I don't look at it. It would be very hard to see anything about yourself that isn't true. But equally, it's not me that they're talking about. It's some caricature they've had to create to get clicks, and I'm very clear on the difference between the two.

Emily Chang 23:17 Do you feel like you have to be perfect? Do you feel like you have to curate what you show us or be a more polished version of-

Meghan Markle 23:27 I-

Emily Chang 23:27 ... the Meghan that you, that you are, like, you know, just at home putting your feet up on the couch?

Meghan Markle 23:31 I did. I did feel that for a while. I felt a lot of pressure to, even though I wasn't seeing it, you could feel the energy of it, so you feel a lot of pressure to go, "Is this hair out of place? I bet it is. But I'm okay with it. Is, uh, is someone gonna say something about anything? Probably, prob-" Once you make peace with the fact that they're gonna say something about anything, and that's a hard place to get, where you can make peace with that, then I think you just settle into being yourself. But whether you're high profile or not, it's hard to be a teenager. It's hard to be in your 20s. It's hard to be a mom for the first time. Every chapter, we're figuring it out for the first time. Every single chapter. And then you layer in just the natural change that happens as we get older. I don't think there's anything, uh, valuable about trying to be perfect. Perfect doesn't exist. And I guess my version of the closest thing to perfection would be being really comfortable in your own skin, and I do think that comes with time.

Emily Chang 24:39 [Instrumental music]

Emily Chang 24:40 And with that, it felt like a perfect time for some fresh air. Meghan tipped us off to a great local spot, where we continued the conversation, from raising kids to the state of the world, and what's really in a name. Well, a lot, apparently.

Meghan Markle 24:57 Have you heard of this place?

Emily Chang 24:58 I haven't. I'm excited.

Meghan Markle 25:00 I would love an IPA. And then I'm having the jalapeno-

Emily Chang 25:03 I'll have-

Meghan Markle 25:04 Like, cheese-

Emily Chang 25:04 ... a regular smash.

Meghan Markle 25:05 Yeah. A regular.

Emily Chang 25:05 Yeah, a cheeseburger smash.

Meghan Markle 25:06 One regular.

Emily Chang 25:07 Smashy.

Meghan Markle 25:07 Smash burger.

Emily Chang 25:08 Smashed cheeseburger.

Meghan Markle 25:09 Here's our number. Thank you. Thank you.

Emily Chang 25:16 Bye.

Meghan Markle 25:16 Okay. So...

Emily Chang 25:18 Yum.

Meghan Markle 25:19 I know. I think you're gonna love it.

Emily Chang 25:20 I'm hungry and thirsty. [laughs] This is perfect.

Meghan Markle 25:23 Well, you're in the right place.

Emily Chang 25:24 [laughs] All right.

Meghan Markle 25:25 Cheers.

Emily Chang 25:25 Cheers. So I mean, obviously this is a quieter town. Can you actually get a drink in peace?

Meghan Markle 25:32 Yes.

Emily Chang 25:32 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 25:33 We go out a lot, and I love it. We, I go out with my girlfriends for dinner and lunches, and obviously my husband and I have a lot of date nights-

Emily Chang 25:39 Mm-hmm

Meghan Markle 25:39 ... 'cause it's important.

Emily Chang 25:40 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 25:41 Um, but yeah, we go out a lot in our community, in Montecito and in Santa Barbara, and people are just really friendly.

Emily Chang 25:46 Are there any tricks to being incognito?

Meghan Markle 25:50 No. We're not trying to be incognito.

Emily Chang 25:52 Mm-hmm. Okay.

Meghan Markle 25:53 Different chapter.

Emily Chang 25:53 But if you had total anonymity for a month, what would you do?

Meghan Markle 25:58 I would go grocery shopping every day. [laughs] I miss grocery shopping so much.

Emily Chang 26:04 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 26:04 But I'm very much on Instacart. I would do that. I would travel in a different way. I used to travel so much, and we can, but it has a lot of layers. So I would just backpack and road trip, and be able to be a little bit more spontaneous.

Emily Chang 26:18 [Instrumental music] I was talking with Melinda French Gates about how we're living in such a charged time-

Meghan Markle 26:24 Mm-hmm

Emily Chang 26:24 ... right now, and sometimes it feels like no one is speaking up and that, you know, people aren't using their voices, 'cause it's scary to speak up. And she said, "I don't think the voices are gone. They're just quietly strategizing."

Meghan Markle 26:39 The quiet part of the song is still part of the song.

Emily Chang 26:42 What do you think of the direction our country is going in?

Meghan Markle 26:45 I think right now it's a really interesting time for the entire world. I just hope that people are able to maintain the values that they feel are important to them and to feel safe, and, and to remember our humanity with each other, in all of it. Like, how- however polarized the world can be or feel, you go back to the fact that we're human beings and try to find-

Emily Chang 27:07 Yeah

Meghan Markle 27:07 ... the way that we can connect versus feel divided. I think that's the only way through whatever can feel trying.

Emily Chang 27:13 On that note, you, you know, you talked about growing up in LA. Chaos erupts here in LA County, widespread immigration raids triggering protests. How does it feel to see your town simultaneously under threat and fighting back?

Meghan Markle 27:28 I've seen my town like that a lot over the years. LA has always been so resilient. That's what I know my hometown to be, and so this to me, while it's a different version of what we've experienced, I think the strength of the people in LA coming together has always been paramount. That's not new.

Emily Chang 27:45 You're in a unique position. I saw you do an interview in 2016, and you had some choice words for, for President Trump.

Meghan Markle 27:52 I think it was in 2012, like, the Republican Party lost the female vote by 12 points. That's a huge number.

Speaker 27:58 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 27:58 And with as misogynistic as Trump is and so vocal about it-

Speaker 28:02 Right

Meghan Markle 28:02 ... that's a huge chunk of it. You're not-

Emily Chang 28:03 Are there things you're dying to say or do right now that you feel like you can't?

Meghan Markle 28:10 No. I just make a choice of what matters to me and what's important to me, and that was a, a different time in 2016-

Emily Chang 28:17 Mm-hmm

Meghan Markle 28:18 ... certainly, but no, I mean, I... What was that, the Larry Wilmore Show?

Emily Chang 28:22 Yes.

Meghan Markle 28:22 I was so excited to have that.

Emily Chang 28:24 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 28:24 I was so excited to be able to go on that show at the time. Yeah, no, I think- Hello. Hi, how are you? Good, thank you. Thanks for having us. Of course.

Emily Chang 28:33 Okay.

Meghan Markle 28:33 Thank you. I've got a classic and a jalapeno like this. I'm a classic. Okay. Thank you. Perfect. There we go. Thank you so much.

Emily Chang 28:39 Thank you.

Meghan Markle 28:39 Can we grab some napkins from you? I'll get that. Thank you. [laughs]

Emily Chang 28:42 Okay, we'll wait for the napkins.

Meghan Markle 28:43 Just to be on the safe side.

Emily Chang 28:43 I'll let you, I'll let you finish your answer.

Meghan Markle 28:45 Of course it was a different time. I was excited to be on the show, and I think if there's anything that I wanted to say or that felt necessary to say-

Emily Chang 28:51 Mm

Meghan Markle 28:51 ... then I would say it. But that's not where I'm at right now. I don't think I've... I haven't said anything since 2016. That was well before I met my husband, too.

Emily Chang 29:02 Mm-hmm. All right. Well, here we go. Shall we try the burger?

Meghan Markle 29:06 Yes, but you do, you do-

Emily Chang 29:06 Here, we can do the burger

Meghan Markle 29:07 ... you do want a napkin.

Emily Chang 29:08 We do want a napkin? Okay.

Meghan Markle 29:09 You're gonna want a napkin.

Emily Chang 29:09 Well, you're wearing all white.

Meghan Markle 29:10 Yeah.

Emily Chang 29:10 Okay.

Meghan Markle 29:11 Thank you so much. You're welcome, ladies. Appreciate it. I hope you enjoy.

Emily Chang 29:13 Okay.

Meghan Markle 29:13 Oh, it's gonna be great. Do you see what they do there?

Emily Chang 29:16 [laughs] And there's giant pickles.

Meghan Markle 29:18 Look at my jalapeno. See?

Emily Chang 29:20 Wow.

Meghan Markle 29:21 Yeah.

Emily Chang 29:21 Okay. Okay. Mm.

Meghan Markle 29:26 Mm.

Emily Chang 29:29 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 29:30 Mm.

Emily Chang 29:30 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 29:33 Well, you asked earlier about-

Emily Chang 29:35 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 29:35 ... do you feel the pressure to be real?

Emily Chang 29:37 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 29:39 We're human, we eat.

Emily Chang 29:40 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 29:41 It's not always gonna be elegant and beautiful, but it's gonna be delicious.

Emily Chang 29:44 We lick our fingers.

Meghan Markle 29:45 Yes.

Emily Chang 29:47 Wow. Okay. So-

Meghan Markle 29:47 What else? Do you have lots of burning questions?

Emily Chang 29:48 I have lots of burning questions. What have you learned about yourself since becoming Sussex?

Meghan Markle 29:53 Well, interesting. What I learned about myself is no matter what my name is or what people call me, I'm still the same person. So that didn't really, that didn't change who I am, and maybe that's probably the biggest distinguishing factor.

Emily Chang 30:07 Give me a tutorial on royal naming conventions. So, like, are you Meghan Sussex? Are you Meghan, Duchess of Sussex?

Meghan Markle 30:14 Mm-hmm.

Emily Chang 30:15 Is Markle even on your passport anymore? Is it D- We don't use that term anymore.

Meghan Markle 30:20 Well, when I got married, I changed my name.

Emily Chang 30:22 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 30:22 Um, but it's c- it's a complicated one for people to understand because a last name is not typical in that construct.

Emily Chang 30:32 I think we expect a last name, but and is that a last name, or is that technically not a last name?

Meghan Markle 30:36 It's not, but it's, it's used-

Emily Chang 30:38 Mm-hmm

Meghan Markle 30:38 ... roughly or loosely, rather. It sounds so silly to say, and I get it because I'm American, and then I went there, and I started to understand. Then you come back, and as an American, you go, "I'm so confused."

Emily Chang 30:51 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 30:52 It's a dukedom.

Emily Chang 30:53 Mm-hmm. A dukedom. That's a new word for me.

Meghan Markle 30:56 It's a dukedom.

Emily Chang 30:57 Okay. [laughs]

Meghan Markle 30:57 So but that's, that's the truth of it. But at the end of the day, you know, yes, so my legal name is Meghan, Duchess of Sussex.

Emily Chang 31:06 Hmm.

Meghan Markle 31:07 But Sussex for us works as our family name.

Emily Chang 31:10 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 31:10 And it's the name that we share with our children, and-

Emily Chang 31:11 Okay

Meghan Markle 31:11 ... um, but yes, since we've been married, that's what I've been called. Do you like this?

Emily Chang 31:15 Yeah, I do.

Meghan Markle 31:15 [laughs]

Emily Chang 31:16 You see me staring at your necklace. You just totally called me out. And I'm definitely not the only one taking note of Meghan's fashion choices. There's a blog called What Meghan Wore that's been tracking her outfits and accessories for fans ever since her relationship with Prince Harry went public. On one occasion, Meghan sporting a bracelet spiked an 11,000% increase in sales for the company that made it. There's even a term for this: the Meghan effect.

Meghan Markle 31:42 [laughs]

Emily Chang 31:42 I don't know if you've heard about this one, but-

Meghan Markle 31:43 I've heard about that one. [laughs]

Emily Chang 31:45 This concept that you can transform a small business by wearing or using their products. How do you make decisions about what to wear or what to feature, knowing that you can have that level of impact?

Meghan Markle 31:56 It's hugely flattering, and it's also ... I take it seriously. Up until then, there was always speculation on what I might be wearing, and then you'd find different media outlets would put it up with their affiliate sales, and, and they might sell out on a shirt, but it wasn't the shirt of that female founder that I was choosing to support. And that was really interesting for me because a lot of my choices, especially when I wasn't using my voice as often, my fashion choices were decisive, and they were really designed to uplift a lot of smaller brands that people might not know about, especially female-founded brands and designers. And so from my standpoint, even having Shop My on Instagram has been a interesting exploration because I'm able to say, "These are the actual brands" and people can find what they're looking for if they wanted to emulate the style.

Emily Chang 32:43 I mean, there's speculation you wanna get into hospitality. Are there, like-

Meghan Markle 32:47 In what way?

Emily Chang 32:47 ... hotels-

Meghan Markle 32:48 Oh, gosh

Emily Chang 32:49 ... restaurants. Beauty, fashion. What's on the horizon?

Meghan Markle 32:52 Ooh, that's a lot of stuff. I do not at this moment have any aspiration of getting into hotels and hospitality. That's the first I've heard that one.

Emily Chang 33:00 Hmm.

Meghan Markle 33:00 I'm open to the possibilities of what can happen, certainly in the expansion of As Ever. I would not put beauty or fashion out of the mix. I think those are things that people associate with me, and it's categories that I really love. Um, I just wanted to start with something that felt a little bit closer to home.

Emily Chang 33:17 You've been doing some angel investing.

Meghan Markle 33:18 Yes.

Emily Chang 33:18 I saw that you called it Dolphin Tank-

Meghan Markle 33:21 Oh

Emily Chang 33:21 ... as opposed to Shark Tank. Um-

Meghan Markle 33:22 Well, I love Shark Tank, by the way. Don't get me wrong.

Emily Chang 33:24 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 33:24 I love watching that show. I just wanted to approach it with friendly water.

Emily Chang 33:27 Yeah. Well, there are sharks out there. Let's be honest.

Meghan Markle 33:30 Yeah.

Emily Chang 33:30 How do you learn to swim with the great whites?

Meghan Markle 33:33 Oh, so eloquent. [laughs]

Emily Chang 33:35 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 33:36 Um, so cinematic as well. I'm just really, really considered in my approach of who I want to invest in and work with, specifically women at different generations.

Emily Chang 33:48 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 33:49 Equally, it's not just the concept that I'm investing in. It's the founder and really knowing how I can be valuable for them. My association with the brand, yes, it might, it might have that effect, and but I wanna be more valuable than just the clickbait version. I wanna be able to bring really sound investors to their cap table. I wanna be able to open up their network for them. I wanna be able to be a soundboard and a, and just a place for advice and to help them grow.

Emily Chang 34:18 Do you and Harry do deals together, any deals?

Meghan Markle 34:20 Yes, absolutely.

Emily Chang 34:21 What's the sort of working together strategy?

Meghan Markle 34:24 What do we both believe in? What do we think is really gonna move the needle? My husband served 10 years in the military. He's obviously very minded about how we show up and do good, how we can be of service, and he looks at it through, through different lenses as well.

Emily Chang 34:37 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 34:37 So kinda concentric circles.

Emily Chang 34:39 What's the bigger strategy? Like, are you looking at AI or biotech or e-commerce or ...

Meghan Markle 34:45 AI, man, I ... Aren't you a little bit scared for, by AI? [laughs]

Emily Chang 34:50 Just a little.

Meghan Markle 34:50 We have to make, just a little. [laughs] I mean, we have to make peace with it, though. The world is changing.

Emily Chang 34:54 Mm.

Meghan Markle 34:54 Our lives are changing. So there are certain things that I just don't n- know enough about-

Emily Chang 35:00 Mm

Meghan Markle 35:00 ... to wanna jump in with both feet. But yes, I mean, when it comes to women, finance, um, healthcare, and tech-

Emily Chang 35:09 Mm-hmm

Meghan Markle 35:09 ... yes, I mean, that is the world that we live in.

Emily Chang 35:11 Are you using AI?

Meghan Markle 35:13 I, you know, last week someone [laughs] talked about ChatGPT-

Emily Chang 35:16 Yeah

Meghan Markle 35:16 ... which of course everyone's talking about ChatGPT.

Emily Chang 35:18 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 35:18 I hadn't experienced it before.

Emily Chang 35:21 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 35:21 I'm shocked. I'm a little bit vintage in many ways-

Emily Chang 35:25 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 35:25 ... because I'm from a time capsule of handwritten notes and putting a stamp on a letter and mailing it, and it's not something that is part of my day-to-day, but you have to imagine, Siri's not on my phone. I don't have location services. There are things like that that I'm, I'm not caught up in the day-to-day tech things that most people are. But yeah, I'm sure it will end up being a part of our life in some capacity. How could it not?

Emily Chang 35:46 AI recipes. I mean, AI recipes-

Meghan Markle 35:48 Oh, is that another-

Emily Chang 35:48 ... are huge. Thumbs up or thumbs down?

Meghan Markle 35:51 This is new.

Emily Chang 35:51 Oh, yeah, you can say, "I have, you know, these five things in my-

Meghan Markle 35:55 Oh, wow

Emily Chang 35:56 ... fridge. What should I make?"

Meghan Markle 35:57 No. What you should do is read Tom Colicchio's Think Like a Chef-

Emily Chang 36:01 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 36:01 ... which is one of the best books written by a chef, frankly, because it teaches you ... Oh, I don't want, I don't want people to lose critical thinking. I don't want people to lose critical thinking. I think it's great if AI can help with recipes, but I also would encourage people in the same way that I do. Cooking can be so playful, and life can be so serious, and if you can find a moment where you can play a little bit- I think your day will probably be a little bit better

Emily Chang 36:26 You've talked about how important it is to be financially literate

Meghan Markle 36:29 Mm-hmm

Emily Chang 36:29 ... especially for women-

Meghan Markle 36:31 Absolutely

Emily Chang 36:31 ... to be financially literate. You know, talk a little bit about your own journey around money, learning how to make it, learning how to manage it.

Meghan Markle 36:39 Certainly as an auditioning actor you are paycheck to paycheck.

Emily Chang 36:42 Mm.

Meghan Markle 36:42 So you're very mindful about how you spend. But I grew up clipping coupons. I grew up looking for deals and the sale rack. I always worked. I mean, my first job was when I was 13-

Emily Chang 36:53 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 36:53 ... at a frozen yogurt shop called Humphrey Yogart. I've had a lot of jobs over the years, and when you work really hard you value, you value what you've earned. So I think that translates into how I invest. It translates into how I spend.

Emily Chang 37:10 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 37:10 What I teach my children, and I think it's incredibly important for young women especially to have a sense of why it matters for her to earn her own money and to be able to be financially independent. That's not about anything other than being self-reliant, and the more that you're able to take care of yourself, especially as a woman, then you're making practical choices in your life that are not hindered by a need being met by someone external. Taking care of yourself is so key, and it's the most empowering thing in the world.

Emily Chang 37:44 We actually did our first lemonade stand this weekend.

Meghan Markle 37:47 How'd it go?

Emily Chang 37:47 My daughter was asking for it, and I think they learned a lot. They're like, "Oh, this isn't so easy as [laughs]

Meghan Markle 37:52 I love that you did that. Now you're gonna have your sticky fingers-

Emily Chang 37:55 Yes

Meghan Markle 37:55 ... every weekend [laughs] making lemonade.

Emily Chang 37:56 [laughs] [upbeat music] We all want our kids to grow up in better circumstances than we did.

Meghan Markle 38:08 Mm-hmm.

Emily Chang 38:09 And your kids are going to live in totally different circumstances than you did.

Meghan Markle 38:13 Yes.

Emily Chang 38:13 How do you reconcile that?

Meghan Markle 38:15 We normalize as much as we can.

Emily Chang 38:17 Right.

Meghan Markle 38:17 But also we're such hands-on parents.

Emily Chang 38:21 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 38:21 And it matters so much to both of us. Being a parent matters so much to my husband. Being a parent matters so much to me, and so there's no version of that where in spite of all of the privilege that our children have access to and the life that they have and the opportunities that they'll be given, and that they'll work for-

Emily Chang 38:40 Mm-hmm

Meghan Markle 38:40 ... I think from our standpoint it all comes back to values. What do we want to raise?

Emily Chang 38:45 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 38:45 Great human beings, kind people, present and aware citizens.

Emily Chang 38:51 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 38:51 People who want to help the world and make things better, and where does that start? That starts in your kitchen, in your home. Being a part of. That starts with taking your plate to the sink and-

Emily Chang 39:03 Mm-hmm

Meghan Markle 39:03 ... contributing and not expecting that things will just be taken care of for you or handed to you.

Emily Chang 39:08 At some point they're gonna be able to read what's been written.

Meghan Markle 39:11 Mm.

Emily Chang 39:12 Like, do you think about that moment? Do you worry about that moment?

Meghan Markle 39:15 I think about it, but at the same time I think my, my children know that I will tell them the truth. And also I would caveat that by saying the truth based on what they can carry in that moment.

Emily Chang 39:27 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 39:28 But also our children get to see the example of who we are as human beings every single day.

Emily Chang 39:32 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 39:33 So I know that will be informed by whatever they end up reading.

Emily Chang 39:35 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 39:36 But equally they have the same great community that we do.

Emily Chang 39:38 Is there anything you want for your kids that's different than what you and Harry have had? Like, especially when it comes to family.

Meghan Markle 39:48 Oh, yeah. I want them to have the fullness of life and family and support in a way that we have had-

Emily Chang 39:57 Mm-hmm

Meghan Markle 39:57 ... and that we do have-

Emily Chang 39:58 Mm

Meghan Markle 39:58 ... in many ways. And also I want them to be able to carve out the life that they want for themselves, and that will very much be not necessarily mimicking, but that'll be very much reflective of the choices my husband and I have made.

Emily Chang 40:10 Hardest question of the day on a busy night, what is your go-to easy kids meal?

Meghan Markle 40:16 Oh, that's so easy.

Emily Chang 40:17 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 40:19 That's so easy. The, on the longest day where there is no time and you don't want any fuss, frozen chicken nuggets, frozen tater tots. They both go in the toaster oven. My daughter loves macaroni and cheese, so one of the ones from Annie's. Quickly whip that up. I do put in some chia seeds-

Emily Chang 40:38 Yeah

Meghan Markle 40:38 ... or flax, and then some broccoli from the garden. They're great about that. I'll say, "You can go pick it."

Emily Chang 40:42 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 40:42 If you don't, yes, you'll be like, "I don't have broccoli for my children to go and pick," that's fine. Take the bag of broccoli from your fridge-

Emily Chang 40:48 Mm

Meghan Markle 40:48 ... and I just quickly toss it in with the pasta water at the last couple minutes-

Emily Chang 40:51 Yeah

Meghan Markle 40:51 ... so it gets a little bit done.

Emily Chang 40:53 Okay.

Meghan Markle 40:53 That's it.

Emily Chang 40:54 All right. So since you mentioned frozen, you gave me the perfect segue. We brought you some Humphrey Yogart.

Meghan Markle 41:00 Oh, my God. How, does it still exist?

Emily Chang 41:03 It still exists. It still exists.

Meghan Markle 41:05 That is wild.

Emily Chang 41:06 So this was your first job.

Meghan Markle 41:08 Yes, but it was very inventive at the time because you could take a base flavor. This is sweet vanilla, tart vanilla, and chocolate. I can tell by the colors.

Emily Chang 41:15 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 41:15 And you could blend the toppings into it, so you would make your own flavor profile.

Emily Chang 41:20 I'm a tart vanilla girl.

Meghan Markle 41:22 Yeah, I think you'll-

Emily Chang 41:22 I'm gonna go with this

Meghan Markle 41:23 ... it's a, it's a really great one.

Emily Chang 41:25 Mm.

Meghan Markle 41:26 Oh, my God.

Emily Chang 41:27 Mm.

Meghan Markle 41:28 You don't like it? [laughs]

Emily Chang 41:29 No, I love it. Sorry, I'm making a face. That was my-

Meghan Markle 41:32 All right, take it home

Emily Chang 41:33 ... that was my tart face. Did the girl who scooped this ever think she'd be here?

Meghan Markle 41:38 No.

Emily Chang 41:39 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 41:40 No.

Emily Chang 41:42 What does she think now that she's here?

Meghan Markle 41:44 Life is full of surprises.

Emily Chang 41:46 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 41:46 And you, you can't, you cannot predict anything. You genuinely can't. I just wanted to be on a TV show that would run for 10 seasons, and I would've been, but I left seven in because I fell in love.

Emily Chang 41:56 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 41:56 So, you know, I just am grateful for where I'm at today.

Emily Chang 42:01 When do you feel the least Duchess of Sussex?

Meghan Markle 42:04 Oh, my God. [laughs]

Emily Chang 42:06 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 42:07 Standing here eating a Smashburger with you, being asked these questions. [laughs]

Emily Chang 42:10 [laughs] Okay. What have you learned about how you navigate the tough stuff, the tension, the conflict, the things you didn't necessarily ask for?

Meghan Markle 42:21 Sure. I think everyone needs to know Who their closest friends are that they can trust, where the right soundboard can be. I have an amazing partner.

Emily Chang 42:30 Mm-hmm.

Meghan Markle 42:30 So that obviously is very helpful. No matter what you're going through, I think it would be very, very challenging to navigate it in a silo.

Emily Chang 42:36 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Meghan Markle 42:37 And to rely on the support that you have around you-

Emily Chang 42:40 Mm-hmm

Meghan Markle 42:41 ... to be able to get through things.

Emily Chang 42:44 Meghan's got a lot of things to get through that are completely unprecedented and so far unresolved, but she also has a lot of things going for her as she grows her business. The real test will be getting beyond the initial hype and criticism to build and scale a sustainable business. It's not just about having a good product and good execution. A celebrity brand is only as strong as the celebrity's image it's built on. Fairly or unfairly, people have a lot of opinions about Meghan Inc. Perhaps she can harness all the attention, welcome or not, to sell a vision that seems to connect to her truth, that she really does just love to jam in the kitchen. The hard part may not be getting customers to buy it, but to believe it. If you could choose one thing for people to know the truth about you, what would that one thing be?

Meghan Markle 43:37 No one's ever asked me that. What a great question. The one thing? Oh, gosh. What's the one thing? Oh, gosh. I just... You know, I, I think the, when I sit with it for a second here, I just want people to know that I'm a real person, and I think a lot of that gets lost in what can be super dehumanizing when you look at the clickbait culture and how much is written about someone. It's like, no, my friends have to read those things.

Emily Chang 44:12 Mm.

Meghan Markle 44:12 Like, I have real best friends, the same ones since I was 17. You know, like, I'm a real mom. I have to go and I choose to go and do school pick-up and drop-off, but I do that under a landscape that is created that forgets that I'm a real person. And how would you want someone to treat a real person in your life that you cared about or loved or respected? And so there's something about that, I think, that often gets lost.

Emily Chang 44:40 Mm.

Meghan Markle 44:40 And even though earlier I was saying you can compartmentalize-

Emily Chang 44:42 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 44:42 ... like, say that's a caricature, yes, but my kids will see those magazines.

Emily Chang 44:48 Yeah.

Meghan Markle 44:48 And we all know moms gossip. And so I m- I have to make a choice to move through the world as myself in spite of all the noise that's created, but maybe there would be less noise if people remembered that I'm a real person.

Emily Chang 45:03 You're a real person.

Meghan Markle 45:04 Yeah.

Emily Chang 45:04 I can say I'm here, and I can attest to that.

Meghan Markle 45:07 Pinch me, I'm real.

Emily Chang 45:08 You're real. [laughs]

Meghan Markle 45:08 She's real. She's a real person.

Emily Chang 45:09 [upbeat music] This is... Yeah, this is one of my favorite.

Meghan Markle 45:39 Ooh.

Emily Chang 45:39 Gosh, we're just knocking books everywhere. Um.

Meghan Markle 45:42 Yeah, it's yummy. [book falls] Whoop. [laughs]

Emily Chang 45:45 We're just dropping books everywhere.

Meghan Markle 45:45 It's just that one book, too.

Emily Chang 45:47 Everywhere. Okay. Is it okay to be a girl boss?

Meghan Markle 45:51 I feel like that was such an of-the-moment term and word.

Emily Chang 45:54 Mm. Yeah.

Meghan Markle 45:55 And I don't know. I think you wouldn't say, "Are you being a boy boss?"

Emily Chang 45:58 Yeah. [laughs]

Meghan Markle 45:58 You're just a boss. Do you need me to hold for sound? The birds?

Emily Chang 46:01 No, that was great. I love that answer.

Meghan Markle 46:02 The bird song is great though.

Emily Chang 46:03 [laughs]

Meghan Markle 46:04 It's so Montecito.

Emily Chang 46:05 It's like, oh, the beauty and the, it's the beauty and the beast.

Meghan Markle 46:06 [singing] But it's true. You wouldn't say that, and so I don't know why we have to attribute our womanness to any role that we're taking, specifically when it comes to business.

Emily Chang 46:18 It's okay to be a boss-

Meghan Markle 46:18 It's okay to be a boss

Emily Chang 46:19 ... no matter who you are.

Meghan Markle 46:20 Baby boss.

Emily Chang 46:20 Got that? [laughs]