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The Calum Johnson ShowMarketing Godfather: How To Build An Audience That Buys (Best Hour You’ll Spend Today!) | Seth Godin
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50 min read · 10,094 words- 0:00 – 2:00
Intro
- SGSeth Godin
Being original and creative is overrated. People say, "I have to come up with this new business structure that's never happened before." No, you should copy it. I know people have gotten 40 million views and sold $200 worth of stuff to go with it. Well, if you need 40 million views every time you wanna make 200 bucks, you're in really big trouble. So my blog has a million readers. I don't use TikTok, I don't use Facebook, I don't use Instagram. Other people talk about me on those platforms.
- CJCalum Johnson
How does someone do that? I'm not even having to play the game of the algorithms. I'm not having to show up in places where for me as a person, it doesn't make sense for me to show up there.
- SGSeth Godin
Stop making average crap. There are people who open a little tiny pizza shop and there's a line around the block. There isn't a line around the block 'cause they're good at using TikTok. There's a line around the block 'cause they made a pizza that was worth other people putting on TikTok.
- CJCalum Johnson
Okay, so before we get into the episode, I had to share this with you guys. Once we booked this conversation with Seth, I go down to my local library, I find the shelf where all of Seth's books are, and I check them out, every single one of them. And then in the week leading up to this conversation, I'm reading through his books. And honestly, I was unsure of exactly where I wanted to take this episode. But then something happened. One night I'm reading one of Seth's books, and in it he shares his five steps to marketing. And the moment that I read that section of the book, I knew that we had it. And so in this episode, we go deep on the five steps to marketing that Seth has used to build multi-million dollar brands, sell millions of books, and spread his ideas without being pushy or overly salesy. And my hope with creating this is that one of you listening takes what we share today, and you use it to build your dream business. That's my hope. But you know what? I'm not gonna say anything more. Let's just get to the conversation. You're listening to
- 2:00 – 5:41
The real meaning of marketing
- CJCalum Johnson
The Calum Johnson Show. I think in my mind you're like the godfather of marketing, right? You're like the expert that I go to. I watch your interviews, I read your blogs, I read your books, on everything when it comes to marketing. And so here's where I wanted to begin. If someone's watching this video with the belief that the world is just too noisy, social media is too saturated, there are just too many people already doing businesses, already trying to spread their ideas in the world, and that is holding them back from growing their business, their side hustle, their coaching program, whatever it is that they're doing, that's their belief. As the godfather of marketing, what would you tell that person?
- SGSeth Godin
They're absolutely right. There's too much noise. There's too much hustle. There's too much mediocre crap from people who think they have a coaching program or some shortcut, or wanna sell you something they got off of a drop shipper. That's not what marketing is. That's just noise. And I'm not the godfather of marketing, but I did carve out a new definition for marketing that separates me from all the people who wanna sell you a system or a hustle or spam, or interrupting people. Marketing is creating the conditions for an idea to spread. And it doesn't spread because you're trying hard to push it out there. It spreads because the people you are serving benefit from telling their friends. And if you are insisting on selling average stuff to average people and bringing more mediocre junk to the world, I can't help you.
- CJCalum Johnson
Hmm. You know what I'm, I'm curious about even just hearing that answer, 'cause I think it's so good and you make it so simple. I'm curious where we got misaligned, because I think if you spoke to most people and you ask them what marketing is, they would say it's billboards or it's ads-
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm
- CJCalum Johnson
... or it's, you know, what I see on social media. It's all, it's what interrupts my YouTube video to tell me something. At what point did we get misaligned with what marketing is?
- SGSeth Godin
The Flintstones. All the way back to the time of the caveman. Uh, The Flintstones were a mediocre TV show, uh, how many years ago? 40, 65 years ago. And if you ran an ad on The Flintstones, you would make enough money to run more ads. And around and around and around it would go. Once you could make a fortune pushing a mediocre cartoon, and in fact, if you look on YouTube, you can find a cigarette commercial featuring Fred and Barney promoting Winston cigarettes. But once we built an entire world where it was about making average stuff for average people and advertising it like crazy, TV became a goldmine. TV drove the culture. Then cable came along, so anyone who could build a cable channel that got followers, like MTV, they had a goldmine. Then the internet came along, and all of a sudden advertisers are like, "Wait, you mean I can run ads that only cost me a penny?" And the business model for the first bunch of years of the internet, and for all social media continues to be hunt people down, steal their attention, steal their privacy, manipulate them, and get them to buy crap. And that's how we built the system we're in.
- CJCalum Johnson
Hmm.
- 5:41 – 10:25
Stop making average C**p!
- CJCalum Johnson
You know, I'm, I think, um, beliefs are, like, interesting to me because I think that a lot of the times we get conditioned to think a certain way.
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm.
- CJCalum Johnson
And so when you're not a marketer, you're someone, you know, maybe you spend time on, on TikTok or on Instagram or on LinkedIn or on YouTube, and you're constantly getting bombarded with ads, like, that's your whole life experience. That's how products have been sold to you. How does someone that's listening that is not like that, maybe they're introverted or they, they're not someone that wants to be in everyone's face with their product, how do you even start to reverse that belief into thinking like, "I don't just need to interrupt people"?
- SGSeth Godin
So let's say you love jazz. Let's say you're Christian McBride, one of the most recorded and honored jazz musicians of all time, or Patricia Barber, uh, who plays the piano in Chicago. These people don't want to be in your face. These people want to make their music. And yet people travel from all over the world to hear Patricia play in Chicago. And yet Christian McBride has albums that sell and sell even though he's not running ads on social media. So what I'm trying to help people see is that we are surrounded by systems, and systems try to make themselves invisible, but if we look, we can see them. So a simple example is how much should it cost to get married? And the answer is exactly what your best friend spent on her wedding plus a little more. And so it's normal to have matchbooks with your name on them. When else do you want matchbooks with your name on- when else do you need a band, right? All of these things that people do. If it's so fun, how come they don't do it four times a year, right? So the system makes it normal. It's normal to go $300,000 in debt if you grow up in the suburbs to go to a famous college that has a football team, even though you can learn everything far more deeply and with more impact without doing that, 'cause it's normal. It's part of the system. So the folks who you're looking at, whether they're Kardashians or people who are, you know, pitching whatever hobby you're into, you're noticing the ones that are doing it on social media. The social media companies have turned everyone else into unpaid employees, that you're running around doing what the social media companies tell you to do 'cause they want you to. So my blog has a million readers. I don't use TikTok, I don't use Facebook, I don't use Instagram. Other people talk about me on those platforms, but I'm not in everybody's face. I'm not trying to be in everybody's face.
- CJCalum Johnson
That's so, that's so interesting. And you know what? I think the ... How does someone do that? Because I think there's so many people that wanna do that, right? Which is like I'm not even having to play the game of the algorithms. I'm not having to show up in places where for me as a person it doesn't make sense for me to show up there. That's not where I thrive. And so how is someone able to create that? And I know for you, you've been doing it for years, so there's a, there's a long process to doing it, but what is step one?
- SGSeth Godin
Stop making average crap. Stop seducing yourself into thinking that we need that thing that you are making, 'cause we probably don't. And to be remarkable is to be worth making a remark about. So there are people who open a little tiny pizza shop, and there's a line around the block. There isn't a line around the block 'cause they're good at using TikTok. There's a line around the block 'cause they made a pizza that was worth other people putting on TikTok. And yet there, I, the last time I counted, there were more than 5,000 pizza places in New York City, and there's only a few that make an extraordinary slice of pizza, 'cause it's hard. And if you choose to lean in to work that is hard, that might not work, that im, im- that exposes you as the fraud you might think you are, then you're measuring the right thing. The false proxy of how many people are following you on social media is a trap. I know people who've gotten 40 million views of a TikTok and sold $200 worth of stuff to go with it. Well, if you need 40 million views every time you wanna make 200 bucks, you're in really big trouble.
- CJCalum Johnson
You know, I actually,
- 10:25 – 14:12
How to get your idea to spread
- CJCalum Johnson
um ... It's funny 'cause I was watching, I was watching the TED Talk that you did this morning actually, How Do You Get Ideas to Spread. And there was a quote in it that you said which I absolutely loved, and I need to give it to people. You said, "The thing that is going to decide what gets talked about, what gets done, what gets purchased, what gets built, is is it remarkable?" And remarkable is a really cool word, because we usually think that that just means that something is neat, but it also means is that thing worth making a remark about? I thought that was so good. I'm, I'm, I'm curious-
- SGSeth Godin
Well, thank you
- CJCalum Johnson
... if, if we go into your story and the evolution of Seth Godin and your thoughts about marketing, when was the first moment when you had that realization that the way to succeed in marketing is to make something remarkable, which is something w- that is worth remarking about?
- SGSeth Godin
So my personal story isn't that interesting in terms of how it's going to help people make their impact on the world. I had, um, my first real job was at a software company working on software from Michael Crichton, Ray Bradbury, and other great software, uh, like science fiction authors. And I was the head of marketing for this line of software. And I didn't have a very big budget, and so I knew that if I ran an ad, I would just be wasting the money. So what else could I do? Well, I could build software that people would wanna play with their friends. And so if you're playing it with your friends, I don't have to worry about getting the word out, 'cause you are getting the word out for us.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm. It's really true. Can you, can you... Because I think I wanna get into, you have, like, these five steps of marketing, and I, and I wanna get into it because I think if people can internalize those five steps, I think there's gonna be people that listen to this video, and then they go and build their dream business, and so I wanna get into that. But before we do, can you give some examples, I just wanna make it so real for people, examples of companies that they just did something remarkable, and that was the reason why their business, their marketing was a success. Like, what comes to mind?
- SGSeth Godin
So again, to be clear, remarkable is not a gimmick, and it's not a hustle. It's something people choose to talk about. Name any successful company of the last twenty years, and I can tell you how they did it. This is what Google did. Google didn't run an ad for years and years and years. This is what Facebook did. They didn't run an ad for years and years and years. When was the last time you saw a Facebook ad? This is how the iPhone took off. The iPhone didn't take off 'cause it had great ads. It took off because when people heard your ringtone, they wanted to know what the hell was going on in your pocket. And I can tell you about small companies like the By The Way Bakery in New York, that they make gluten-free, dairy-free baked goods. My wife founded it, and they sell a lot of stuff. Why do they sell it? Because if you have a friend who doesn't eat dairy, and you have a friend who doesn't eat wheat, and you serve this at dinner, you're gonna talk about it. So we don't have a cookie shortage. We don't have a phone shortage. We don't have a search engine shortage. What we have is a shortage of things to talk about that connect us to other people, and that isn't a side effect. It's the cause of these things growing.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm. That connection to other people.
- 14:12 – 18:09
How to choose the right product to launch
- CJCalum Johnson
You know what? Let's, let's go into, um, the five steps of marketing because like I, I told you this actually before we started recording, that I went to the library, and I picked up all of your marketing books. It was, like, on the same shelf in my local library, and I was, like, reading through, and I'm like, "Where do-- where, like, what do I wanna give people from this conversation?" And when I read The Five Steps of Marketing, I was like, "That is it." And so I wanna go through each of these steps, and we can just have fun with the conversation and see where it goes for people. Okay, so step one. The first step is to invent a thing that's worth making with a story worth telling and a contribution worth talking about. And so just to begin, if someone is listening and they have a business idea, they have s- I don't know, it's their haircare line, their skincare product, an apparel line, whatever the thing is, how do I make the decision, this thing that I have in mind, is it a thing worth making?
- SGSeth Godin
Okay, so the first thing I would say is i- being original and creative is overrated when it comes to inventing a business. That people say, "I have to come up with this new business structure that's never happened before." No, you should copy it. You should find someone who has a business structure. You shouldn't invent franchising. You say, "Oh, it worked for McDonald's, it worked for Subway, it worked for these people. I'm gonna use a model that already exists." So that's the first thing that I would say to people. So my guess is that person you're talking about who's coming up with skincare, they probably aren't gonna build a factory that's making some sort of magical cream. What you're probably talking about is buying average skincare wholesale, putting a label on it, and trying to sell it to people. So what's the model? The model is, well, first I gotta interrupt a lot of people and get the word out. Hmm. Well, we already talked about why that's a problem. So what's the alternative? The alternative is to realize that everyone who buys clothes at a clothing store is already wearing clothes, and that everyone who goes to a restaurant already has food in their fridge at home. That what we buy when we buy most things, once we have healthcare and a roof over our head and something to eat, is a story. It is a story about status and affiliation and what kind of person we are and who we wanna hang out with. And so when Hermès comes out with the Birkin bag, which used to cost fifteen thousand dollars and now costs more than thirty thousand dollars, every person who bought it already had a purse. So what are you buying when you're buying a Birkin bag? You're buying the ability to wear it outdoors and have your friends see it, and they and you have a conversation about the purse. Not about how much it can hold, not about, you know, how many animals were slaughtered to make it, but about what it is to own this thing. So what's the contribution worth making? The contribution worth making is to weave together possibility, status, affiliation, community in a story that creates tension. 'Cause if I ignore it, then I don't take any action. But if there's tension, what's gonna happen? What happens after that? Can I do it? Will I be left out? Will they sell out? That tension causes forward motion, and it causes me to focus my behavior. So I think built into the question is everyone's presupposition that the way, the quick hustle is to become the next Kardashian. The thing is, we don't need another Kardashian 'cause we already have one.
- 18:09 – 26:40
Why we struggle to share our story with customers
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm-hmm. You know what I think it's so, um, special, and I can even... Like, my, my very first business that I ever started was a clothing line, and it was a spectacular failure. Spectacular failure And the reason why is I wanted to be like the next Nike, and I had all of these grand aspirations. I thought that in order to stand out, I needed to do something so big and spectacular. And I think one of the special things that you even mention is, like, something that makes us all unique is our story. That is an instant differentiator is in the story. I think the problem is, is like a lot of us, we don't know how to tell good stories. And so can you speak about that? Because you, you mentioned tension, and I think story's one of those things that we always hear it and we hear different people speak about it, the value of storytelling, whether it's directors or musicians or business people. But I think that there's like a lack of clarity of what- around how to tell a good story or even what a good story is.
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah.
- CJCalum Johnson
And so can you clear that up for the person that's listening? Like, how do I even figure out what is the story I should be sharing?
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah. So I'm gonna disagree with one part. I think almost every person I've met at some point is good at telling a story.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
Uh, if you've ever invited four friends out to dinner and they all came, why did they come? It's not because they owe you a favor. It's because the story of the possibility of that dinner, who else was coming, who was hosting it, where are we going, what time are we going, made it an instant easy yes.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
Right? So this podcast, which has a bazillion downloads, your first episode, how many people listened to it? 10?
- CJCalum Johnson
Hmm. About that, yeah.
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah, so how do you get from 10 to a bazillion? You didn't do it by hustling on social media. You did it because the 10 people who listened to the first episode, the conditions were created that their life would be better if they told the story of your podcast. And so what makes a podcast successful is not the guests, it is the structure of the story. Why should I listen to this when there are 99,000 other podcasts? What might not work? Where's the tension? Where's the possibility? Who is this for? And we've been brainwashed to make average stuff for average people and then say to people like me, "How do I get the word out?" And it's frustrating because people like me say, "You can't," and then you feel ripped off. The right question is, how do I create the conditions for the smallest viable audience to find something they would miss if they were gone that they can tell their friends about?
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm-hmm. You know, I actually, I love that point that we actually tell great stories all of the time.
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm.
- CJCalum Johnson
And, and it's funny, even if ... You, you mentioned the example of, like, going to dinner with your friends. How many times have you gone to dinner with a friend and they can tell you an incredible story about something that happened at work last week, or they went out, you know, on Friday night and they can tell you a story of how the night went, and it's captivating and you're, like, drawn into it and you're so engaged? And so my question to you is, why do we struggle so much when it comes to our business, when it comes to our idea, the thing that we would, like, love for people to embrace? Why do you think so many people struggle to tell a story then, but, like, in our lives it's like we, we can tell great stories? What do you think that is? Okay, quick break. Can you guys relate to this? Sometimes as entrepreneurs and creatives, we have the perfect video idea but not the perfect footage. And so what ends up happening is you're editing a video and you need that one cinematic shot just to tie everything together, but you don't have the time to film it yourself or maybe you just can't film it. And that's where Storyblocks, the sponsor of today's episode, comes in. And yes, to illustrate my point, I put a dramatic shot of a yacht on screen. But anyway, we use Storyblocks to take our trailers and our reels to the next level. Whether it's stunning B-roll footage or high-quality motion graphics, even their royalty-free music [upbeat music] that just fits the mood perfectly, Storyblocks is what we use. And the reason we use Storyblocks is they give you access to a library of different assets and unlimited downloads, all while paying one predictable price. And so the good news is that you never have to worry about licensing or extra costs. And so if you're creating marketing videos, social media content, or you just wanna tell better stories with your content, Storyblocks is the place to go. So this is what you're gonna do next. Check out the link in the description to start using Storyblocks, and thank me later. Thank you to Storyblocks for sponsoring this episode. Okay, give me 60 seconds because I have to let you guys in on a secret. We live in the greatest time to start and run a small business, and a big part of the reason for that is the technology that we have at our fingertips. Introducing the sponsor of today's episode, Jotform. Jotform is a no-code online form builder that empowers you to create and manage forms and data effortlessly. Jotform is my go-to whenever I want to build surveys or forms for my business. But recently they have released a new feature, and that is Jotform's AI Agents, and it's a game changer, especially for all the business owners that are dealing with customer service in your business. And so I know for me personally, I find it so frustrating when I'm using a product and I need help from their support team and I get directed to either their help forum or a help line which takes hours to get a response. Jotform AI Agents will make sure your customers don't have that experience, and the reason why is they are available 24/7. They handle customer inquiries through SMS, voice, and even WhatsApp. The Jotform AI Agents work instantly- So you don't lose customers to slow responses. And so if you want smarter, faster customer support for your business that's working while you sleep, go to the link in the description, check out Jotform AI Agents. And for anyone that uses that link, you will get a 50% discount on Jotform's Annual Plans. So thank me later, and let's get back to the show.
- SGSeth Godin
Well, I'm not sure people don't struggle in their life. They struggle to tell a story to their spouse about th- the truth of what they're experiencing. They struggle to, uh, engage in a situation where they need to be seen and they're being judged unfairly. There are lots of places where we struggle with our story, and they all have something in common, which is it's scary to be seen.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
It's scary to be a fraud. It's scary to assert a future that's not here yet. It's scary to be creative. It's scary to be on the hook. And so imposter syndrome is real, and what it means to engage with someone and get them to buy something from you is a sort of radical empathy. Because what you're saying, if you're a decent person, in the back of your head is, "Well, I would never buy this." And so you feel like a fraud.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
Because you're busy selling X, but when no one's watching, you're buying Y. And the empathy is this. If you worked at a pantyhose company and you're someone who doesn't wear pantyhose, you can still imagine that there are people who need pantyhose. You can be an oncologist even if you've never had cancer. You can invent kids toys even though you're not three years old. So what we're trying to do is show up with possibility and tell a story that we can live with that the other person really needs to hear.
- CJCalum Johnson
You know what? I wanna ... I think it's a great moment to move
- 26:40 – 30:02
The RIGHT way to pick an audience for your product
- CJCalum Johnson
to step two. And so this is what you said is step two. You said, "The second step is to design and build it in a way that a few people will particularly benefit from and care about." And so I think about that point you made just now about radical empathy-
- SGSeth Godin
Right
- CJCalum Johnson
... for those few people that care about the thing that you're building. And so talk to me about that because I think that that's something that people really struggle with. And it's something that I, I struggled with in various stages of trying different companies. It's difficult to go from that mindset of, "I just want anyone and everyone-
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm
- CJCalum Johnson
... to buy my thing," to, "No, it's actually just these select small group of people, and I'm gonna tell a story and build a narrative that fits them."
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah.
- CJCalum Johnson
Talk to me about that.
- SGSeth Godin
So do you have any, uh, tools at home? Like a jigsaw or-
- CJCalum Johnson
I do. Not, not many, but I do. I do have some tools.
- SGSeth Godin
Okay. So the typical jigsaw, electric jigsaw on Amazon costs about $25. And if you wanna make a jigsaw that's gonna sell a lot, you go to China, you get them made as cheap as possible and say, "If you're looking for a jigsaw, here's a jigsaw. It's a dollar less than everybody else." That's a race to the bottom. And this company showed up, Festool, and they said, "We're gonna make a $220 jigsaw." It costs 10 times more than the other jigsaws, and it's the best jigsaw you will ever touch. It is everything about its design, how long the battery lasts, how it feels in your hand, the packaging it comes in, the case you carry around in it, and the way it makes you feel when you're around the other woodworkers. All of those things are worth $1,000. And so 200 bucks is a bargain. And if someone looks at that and says, "What are you talking about? I ... My $25 jigsaw is fine," the answer is, "You're right. It's fine. Good for you. You've solved your jigsaw problem. We're here for people with a different problem." And we can go down the list of just about every product that people actually care about. There's a cheaper alternative somewhere that more people buy. Way more people have an Android phone than an iPhone. Way more people. But many of the people who have an iPhone aren't giving it up because being popular is different than being great. Being popular is different than being profitable. And so we find the smallest group of people that we're willing to be on the hook to. If you're running a nonprofit and you wanna go raise money, well, the volunteer fire department two towns up, what they do is once a year they put roadblocks up in the road and they stand on a busy street with rubber boots, and in order to get by you gotta throw some money in the boot. So they collect money from everybody. If they get five bucks from a person, that's a lot. And there's a nonprofit I work with where the average contribution is $50,000. If you're gonna go raise $50,000 you have to tell a totally different story. You can't just stand in the street with a boot. And so we gotta pick which group of people has a problem that they wanna solve so bad that they will pay money to solve it.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm.
- 30:02 – 37:15
The framework to find your target audience
- CJCalum Johnson
You know the thing, um ... So 18 months ago I was running or I was trying to run an agency and at the time I would like ... I would kinda hedge my bets. Like, we'd be doing some stuff for these sort of clients. We'd be doing some-
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm
- CJCalum Johnson
... marketing stuff and then some things are just for, like, entrepreneurs that wanna start a podcast. I was putting my bets everywhere.
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah.
- CJCalum Johnson
And I had to reflect on it and I realized it was fundamentally, like, a lack of confidence.
- SGSeth Godin
Mm.
- CJCalum Johnson
I didn't have the confidence in what I was doing, so I was trying to appeal to everyone 'cause I was like, "Someone will take it." And so I think the way that you use words is, is intentional and it's important. You say the smallest viable market. And so I think each of those words is important. Smallest viable market. And so how does someone, if they're listening to this and they're at a point in their business where they're kinda trying to appeal to everyone, they're in the same situation I was in-
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah
- CJCalum Johnson
... how do they make that decision with confidence of like, "No, no, no, I'm gonna disregard all of these people who are, maybe they're even paying me money right now-
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm
- CJCalum Johnson
... because I'm only meant to appeal to that." Like, how do I get to that level of, how do I make that decision?
- SGSeth Godin
Well, we should talk about decisions in a minute, but to pick up the agency example. If I had to start an agency today, I would build an agency, for example, that only works with pediatric orthodontists. If you're not a pediatric orthodontist, I'm not gonna build your website and I'm not gonna help you get the word out. I only work with pediatric orthodontists. By the time I've got four clients and I've proven that I'm effective, there's gonna be a line out the door, because pediatric orthodontists don't wanna be innovators. They wanna hire the person who's the very best at helping them grow their practice. The end.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
And once I have 20 clients, I never have to look for work again. I'm done. That's so different than saying, "You got, you're looking for an agency? We're an agency. You can pick anyone? We're anyone." So it's that emotional shift that we're talking about. But I wanna talk about decisions since you brought it up, and this is from my friend Annie Duke. Annie used to be the world poker champion. So tell me please, have you made a really good decision in the last three months? Can you think of one?
- CJCalum Johnson
Yeah.
- SGSeth Godin
Okay. This decision you made, did it turn out well?
- CJCalum Johnson
It turned out amazingly, yeah.
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah. That's what everyone says. That doesn't mean it was a good decision.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
If you buy a lottery ticket and you win, it was still a stupid decision. Because buying a lottery ticket is for idiots. There's no math that makes sense to buy a lottery ticket.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
But if it turns out all right, now you think you're really smart. No, you were just lucky. On the other hand, it's entirely possible to make a good decision and have it fail. That if someone decides to get on a plane and fly from here to Toledo, and the plane crashes and they die, they didn't make a bad decision. They just got really unlucky. Flying is the safest way in the history of the world to travel.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
So it was a good decision but a bad outcome. So how do we decide with confidence? Well, you're probably not gonna have confidence. Confidence implies that you know how the future is gonna turn out.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
I'm just saying all the math, all the data, all the history shows that if you wanna make something great, you need to make it for someone specific. You need to pick a group of people that's big enough to support you if it works, but not everybody, right? So you probably shouldn't start an ad agency for left-handed red-haired people who have a monocle, because there just aren't enough of those people, that even if you delighted all of them, you, you're still not gonna be able to be in business.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
But you also shouldn't start a headphone company for everyone who has ears, because that's too big.
- CJCalum Johnson
You know what? I've, I've, um, I always say this. I say this, this seat that I sit in is an interesting one, 'cause we've done over 100 episodes at this point, and all of our guests are, like, phenomenal. They've built incredible things. And so one of the things that's interesting for me is that I start to see patterns, and one of the patterns that I see is that a lot of entrepreneurs start out their businesses in this, like, experimentation phase, where they're just trying a bunch of different things, and they're waiting for that moment where they see, like, an outlier. They see a spike. They see, you know, we sent this out and it went up.
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- 37:15 – 42:09
How to make people feel connected to your story
- CJCalum Johnson
And so I actually think it's a really natural, um, way into step three, which is the third step is to tell a story that matches the built-in narratives and dreams of that tiny group of people, the smallest viable market. And so, like, the thing that ... And I'm even smiling as I'm saying it because I just think it's so important. To tell a story that matches the built-in narratives and dreams of that tiny group of people. There's so much power in those few words that you just said there. Can you just explain that to people?
- SGSeth Godin
Um, so there's a video, I can't remember, Josh Bell. There's a Josh Bell video in the subway system of Washington, DC, and they gave him a baseball cap. He's a super famous classical pianist. They gave him a baseball cap and had him show up in the subway and play. Everyone walked right by. These are some of the very same people who would happily pay $200 for tickets to see him at the Kennedy Center. But the context mattered. Because in the subway, the mindset of someone is, if there's someone playing music over there, they're not worth me listening to. But if they're on the stage at the symphony, they must be good, because that's the context that I have been trained to understand and believe in. So there was a period of time a few years ago when some scammers dressed up in the, the robes of, of Buddhist monks and stood on the street corners of New York trying to beg for money in an organized way, and they were hauling in a lot of money. 'Cause they would walk up to somebody and offer them a, a Zen mindfulness sort of, uh, emblem, badge. And if they guessed right and the person they were approaching was someone who was a meditator, someone who'd been on a retreat, someone who understood mindfulness, an exchange just took place. Well, one, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to someone in monk's robes, and two, they gave me something, so I have to reciprocate, because that's one of the things that I was trained to do as a little kid. So they're scamming people. They're just keeping the money. But they were doing it by taking advantage of what we already believed. If you showed up dressed that way in 1784 in Alablin, Tex- Abilene, Texas, no one would give you anything, 'cause they didn't have a story about Buddhist monks or reciprocity that would work then, today, right? So we have to be aware of the context. What are we plugging into? Why, what does it mean to buy a Super Bowl ad? Buying a Super Bowl ad is almost always a terrible decision, but it sends a signal to certain groups of people because of what we've come to expect from Super Bowl ads, not 'cause they work.
- CJCalum Johnson
You know, I was reading, um, I was actually reading it last night, uh, Marketers Are Liars.
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm.
- CJCalum Johnson
Um, and in that book you talk about worldview. And I think one of the things that ... And, and it's interesting to me because I think it's a mistake that I know I've made and I think people make, uh, especially when they're trying to market something or they're trying to get a message out, they're trying to get an idea to spread, is that you want, you're trying to change the way that people think. You're, like, trying to change people's beliefs.
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah.
- CJCalum Johnson
And so one of the things that you talk about is you talk about worldview. And actually, you know what, actually, instead of me putting the words to it, you explain it. Like, the, the importance of worldview and actually how, to the person that's listening at home, they can use that to help their ideas spread.
- SGSeth Godin
So, you know, what did the person believe before you got there? What are the assumptions they made to survive before you got there? If you want to show up and change their mind, that's way harder than showing up and saying you were right all along. And so if there's a group of people who believe that buying new fashion, edgy fashion every spring is what people like they, them do, then you just say, "Here's the new fashions." But if you, if you want to go to people who buy all their stuff from the Lands' End catalog and get them to buy exactly the same thing, they're not gonna. Because first you have to treen- train them to become the kind of person that buys new fashions every spring. Then you gotta get them to buy what you picked.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
So when we treat different people differently, we begin with where are they already, not how do I insist they change who they are?
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm. And you know what? It's actually, um, I
- 42:09 – 45:10
Authenticity is a LIE! (Don't Do It)
- CJCalum Johnson
saw an interview that you did, and you made an, a really interesting point. 'Cause a big word for me has always been authenticity.
- SGSeth Godin
[laughs]
- CJCalum Johnson
Just wanna be authentic. Just wanna be myself. I just wanna be authentic all the time. That's my, that's my thing. And you say this thing. You go, "Authenticity is overrated." You said, "There are definitely times when I'd like to act authentically in the moment, but I don't because authenticity is overrated. Your customers don't want you to be authentic. Your podcast listeners don't want you to be authentic. They want you to be the best version of you that you promised them."
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm
- CJCalum Johnson
Can you explain that? Why is authenticity overrated?
- SGSeth Godin
Well, I mean, it's very ... You already nailed it. It's authenticity is for amateurs. Authenticity is for your friends and for your family. Consistency is for professionals. If you get to a hotel and the doorman is having an authentically bad day, you don't want him to kick you in the shins, right? If you go to check in and your room is a mess because the housekeeper was having an authentically bad day, you're not like, "Thanks for being authentic." You want it to be consistent. That's what a brand is, a promise. So if you authentically are sick and tired of playing your top 40 hit, don't go on tour. Or if you do go on tour, you better be prepared to give the audience what they want, which is a song you're totally tired of playing but that that's what they came to hear. You need to consistently be the best version of KC and the Sunshine Band you can be, not say, "I'm KC, but now I feel like playing classical music." Buckle up, 'cause that's not what they signed up for.
- CJCalum Johnson
What do you say? 'Cause I can even hear the, I can hear the pushback from people, and it's the same pushback that, that I would have, which is, well then, are you telling me not to be myself, or that in order to be successful at something I have to do something that doesn't feel right to me?
- SGSeth Godin
Well, of course-
- CJCalum Johnson
What would you, what would you say to that?
- SGSeth Godin
You've been doing that ever since you were two years old. The last time you were fully authentic is when you were wearing diapers and screaming at the top of your lungs. Ever since then, you've made choices based on how the world will respond to the choices you make. We all do that all the time, right? You authentically feel like going 80 miles an hour, but there are cars in front of you. What are you gonna do? You're gonna drive at 20 miles an hour so you don't get in a crash. That's just civilization. But, and a big circle around this, don't do work you're not proud of, and don't do work that burns you out. Don't do things you can't point to and say, "I'm glad I made that." But if you're getting what you want, doing what you want, please, you don't need my advice. But most of the time that people show up and listen to me, it's because they're doing what feels authentic and the world doesn't care. And I'm like, yeah, you can't make the care- world care. What you can do is give the world what you promised them, and they might care about that.
- 45:10 – 54:55
How to convert your customers to True Fans
- CJCalum Johnson
Hmm. That's so good. Okay. The fourth step is the one that everyone gets excited about, and that's to spread the word. So you mentioned it. Everyone gets excited about it, so let's just get straight into it. How do I spread the word?
- SGSeth Godin
You don't.
- CJCalum Johnson
You don't? We should all just go home?
- SGSeth Godin
No. Your customer should spread the word.
- CJCalum Johnson
Hmm. You know, actually, the thing, the thing that you mentioned, you said, right in the beginning you said that your job as a marketer is to create the conditions-
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm
- CJCalum Johnson
... so that your customers can spread the word.
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- CJCalum Johnson
So maybe that's the better que- question. What are the conditions so that my customers want to spread the word?
- SGSeth Godin
So let's say you care about the mass, uh, massacre of dogs and cats from pet shelters, that until recently, four million dogs and cats were killed every year by the SPCA and Humane Societies of the United States. One thing that could've happened is Humane Society and the SPCA could have, uh, got a phone bank, spammed everyone by text, and begged people to come adopt a dog. That's just not gonna work. The other thing you can do is invite a bunch of kids from the local high school to come to the shelter to take pictures of the dogs and cats and post them on Petfinder so they'll get adopted. 'Cause those kids will get something out of that. It will make them feel special. They'll feel like leaders. They'll be making a contribution. And by the way, they might adopt a dog while they're there. And if they do adopt a dog and they go home and people say, "Murray, Murray's such a beautiful dog. Where'd you get him? Is he, you know, from a breeder?" And that person says, "No, I got him from that shelter down the street," the customers are spreading the word, right? That this happens over and over and over again. How did you find out about Google? How did you find out about Facebook? You didn't find out about it 'cause they ran an ad. You found out about it 'cause someone benefited from telling you.
- CJCalum Johnson
You know what? I think that, and this has always been fascinating to me, even ever since I was a kid, and maybe this makes me a bit weird, but I think that human psychology is fascinating. And so I'm curious, right? 'Cause you're, you're so right. There is a way to position something where one person just participates and does it. The other, you position it another way, not only does someone participate, they then share it with all of their friends. And so if you almost had to try and, like, nail that down, like summarize it, on a psychological level, what is happening? What is being done so that in that second scenario, not only does the person buy my skincare product or buy my clothing product, they tell all of their friends about it? What is the psychology that's underpinning that?
- SGSeth Godin
Well, it sounds like you're asking for a shortcut, and I promise people who look for a shortcut aren't gonna find it.
- CJCalum Johnson
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
What we're talking about here is culture and systems and civilization and people's needs. So if we're gonna talk about someone starting an apparel company, my friend Blake started a company called Toms Shoes, and his idea was- Let's make espadrilles, $85 shoes made ethically, uh, in Portugal, and for every person who buys a pair of these shoes, I will give a similar pair of shoe to someone who doesn't have shoes. Now, we can talk about the social impact of that and what is misguided and what is not misguided about it, but that's not my point. How do you grow that simple idea into a half a billion dollar company? Well, the first thing he did was he put a big logo on the back of the shoe. That's very unusual in those days for a woman to wear a shoe that wasn't a sneaker that had a logo on it. Then he went to some women, not all women, just a few, and said, "You're the kind of women that wanna do good at the same time you're trying out new fashion." And perhaps 100 people bought this pair of shoes. Now something interesting happens. Because this woman, this fashion forward woman who bought the shoes 'cause she wanted to tell herself a story about being a philanthropist and a story about being fashion forward, walks into her friend's house and there is a social contract unwritten in the United States that if your girlfriend got a new haircut or has a new pair of shoes, you have to say, "Oh, that's so cute. Where'd you get it?" You just have to say that. If you don't say that, you're being really rude.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
So that's an affiliation thing. I see my friend. We're gonna talk about this. And then the status thing kicks in 'cause the woman who wanted to go first looks at her friend and says, "Oh yeah, I'm better than you. I'm a philanthropist. I bought these shoes and something good is happening for someone else 'cause I showed up." Why does the woman wanna say that? 'Cause it gives her status.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
'Cause it moves her up in the eyes of her friend. Now her friend has a big problem. Tension is created. Her problem is either she has to not buy the shoes because she's a bad, selfish person, or she has to buy a pair of these shoes to get back on track status-wise with her friend. But as soon as she gets the shoes, now she wants her other friends to ask her about the shoes. And so the process continues. And after selling millions and millions of pairs of shoes, Blake came out with Tom's Coffee. And the idea of Tom's Coffee is if you buy a pound of this coffee, we'll give money, not coffee, but we'll give money to someone who needs money. And it didn't work. And the reason it didn't work is because that's not how coffee works. First of all, we tend to make coffee just for ourselves. Secondly, if I make a cup of coffee for you, you don't see the label, so you don't get to ask me about the coffee. So there's no conversation. The system wasn't created to lead to the conversation taking place.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm-hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
And so that's a very specific example. It's way more complicated than that. But that's how you build a religion, how you build a political party, how you build a coffee company, how you build a farmer's market, status and affiliation.
- CJCalum Johnson
Yeah. You know, you know what, it's, um, it's interesting 'cause it's like the way that you get ideas to spread is that you need an understanding, first of all, it sounds like, about fundamental human needs and desires.
- SGSeth Godin
Correct.
- CJCalum Johnson
Number one. Then the culture of whatever it is that your, your product is in. You need to know the norms and the culture, and then the systems.
- SGSeth Godin
Yep.
- CJCalum Johnson
Um, okay. I wanna get to, I wanna get to the last step before we get out of here. You said, "The last step is often overlooked. Show up. Show up regularly, consistently, and generously for years and years to organize and lead and build confidence in the change you seek to make, to earn permission to follow up and to en- and to earn enrollment to teach."
- SGSeth Godin
Yep.
- CJCalum Johnson
There's so many different components of that.
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah.
- CJCalum Johnson
But to you, what resonates? Like, what do people need to understand?
- SGSeth Godin
My, uh, late writing partner and, uh, friend, Jay Levinson, used to say, "You don't change your work when you get bored with it, and you don't change it when your spouse gets bored with it, and you don't change it when your employees get bored with it. You change it when your accountant gets bored with it." And showing up in a fast moving world is underrated. So I wrote my blog every single day for five years before I had a lot of people lis- reading it. That if you look at the arc of Apple Computer since 1980, it's mostly about value creation, opening the stores, coming out with more of the ecosystem, persistently sticking with not 50 products, but four. Now they're shifting to value capture. They're losing their imagination, and they're just making everything a little bit more expensive and a little less great. But they lasted for a long time, showing up for us, not doing things at us. And when we're in value creation mode, we realize we are here to serve. And if we do it with consistency and generosity, we get to do it again.
- 54:55 – 59:00
Start small and grow big!
- CJCalum Johnson
One of the things, and it's funny 'cause I was having a meeting with, um, Jeshua, who helps me with my research for every episode, and he mentioned to me one of your books, The Dip. And we were just speaking about people giving up, and I think about... I think one of the things that I think about is how many incredible businesses that would change people's lives never got started or never got off the ground because someone gave up. Right before that moment where it was all gonna work and, like, fall into place for them, they gave up. And so this was a quote that just stood out to me that you said in that book. You said, "The dip is that moment when it feels so hard and so unlikely that you will succeed. And so it feels like you should quit because that's when everyone quits, and sticking through that dip is how we get to the other side." And so to the human that's listening to this, and they're in that moment where it's like, "Man, I'm feeling that dip right now," what's the one piece of advice from your life and your experiences of how to persist through the dip?
- SGSeth Godin
Well, I think we have to go back a little bit. Um, most people quit too late. They don't quit too soon. Most people shouldn't even start. If you wanna run the marathon and you're very good at running the 400-yard dash, and you've only got a couple hours to spend, don't start running a marathon. Because you're just not... You're gonna get to the p- to mile, whatever, 12, and you're gonna quit 'cause you weren't prepared, 'cause you didn't train, 'cause you didn't have the resources, 'cause you didn't sign up for something that was gonna take that long. So the first big piece of that book is know where the dip is before you start. And the second part is when we think about the Boston Marathon, a lot of people quit at mile 22. What's the difference between someone who quits at mile 22 and someone who finishes? 'Cause they're all tired. Everyone's tired at mile 22. The difference is the people who finish figure out where to put the tired, and that's what it means to build something. It doesn't have to be a business, but to build something that's going to change the culture. Acknowledging before you start that there's a dip somewhere up ahead, that the few exceptions from Silicon Valley are the exceptions. For everybody else, we're showing up knowing that it gets a lot more challenging before it gets easier. If you're not prepared for that, there's nothing wrong with sticking with your day job. There's nothing wrong with being a freelancer. But the entrepreneurs that get to the other side picked a project that was small enough that they could make it to the other side. This whole idea that you're gonna build an AI engine that's gonna change the world, no, you're not, 'cause you don't have $40 billion. So go do a thing you can do. Find a small problem, make a promise, do it for the people in that audience, keep the promise, and then do it again.
- CJCalum Johnson
Mm. It's actually, it's a very ironic thing that some of the biggest businesses that we all use every day, I even think about the founding story of Airbnb. A huge multi-billion dollar business, but the way it started, it started in the smallest way.
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- CJCalum Johnson
And it's like this thing that it's difficult to get your mind around it because you're trying to think as big. You know, we're dreamers. We're thinking as big as possible. I wanna take over the whole market. The biggest businesses start with the smallest markets. Um, Seth, thank you so much.
- SGSeth Godin
Well, thanks for taking the time and showing up the way you do over and over again. I appreciate you. Thanks.
- CJCalum Johnson
Thank you. I appreciate you as well. This was really fun. Okay, so if you enjoyed this episode, you're gonna absolutely love what we did with this one right here. Click here
Episode duration: 59:01
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Transcript of episode 8zcnK6Lx_p4
