The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantBuilding Integrity in the Age of Normalized Cheating | The Curiosity Shop
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
50 min read · 10,385 words- 0:00 – 2:08
Welcome to The Curiosity Shop
- BBBrené Brown
[upbeat music] Hey there.
- AGAdam Grant
Hey, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, just for all of you listening or watching, uh, Adam and I just both finished teaching [laughs] very intense intensives. So, um, Adam taught an MBA intensive at Wharton. I taught an MBA intensive that just ended, like, a couple days ago, um, at University of Texas McCombs. How, how was it for you? How was your... How intense was your intensive?
- AGAdam Grant
Exhilarating and exhausting all at once. How about you?
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God, too. It, it was the paradox of those. And, you know, I just think, um, for the students, I, I appreciate an intensive because it really allows students to get in, take a course, learn a ton, but I'm starting to wonder about saturation in intensives.
- AGAdam Grant
Hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
Like, what, what's your thinking on that?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I've been wondering about that, too. I love the fact that they're not distracted by other classes-
- BBBrené Brown
Same
- AGAdam Grant
... and they can go all in on leadership and teamwork, and then I wonder, it's a week, and then they're done. Are they gonna forget in a year or two?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, that's interesting. We scheduled some follow-ons, and so we're gonna, we're gonna keep coming back. And I really appreciated, especially this cohort, it's the first time I've taught this cohort of MBA working professionals, so they have full-time jobs. Um, and it was really nice, especially for, you know, I'm teaching daring leadership, teamwork, and it was so nice to have all the stories about where they're filing those things because some of them were ICs. A lot of them though were people leaders, all of them on teams, so, um, it always, like, reinvigorates my hope for people when I teach. Do you feel the same way in the classroom?
- AGAdam Grant
Same. Same. I feel like we get to see the best of our students so often-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... and the best of their generation.
- BBBrené Brown
Uh, 100%. Yeah. It was great. Um, so interestingly, you just had...
- 2:08 – 9:36
Adam Grant’s AI Cheating Conflict
- BBBrené Brown
Let's, let's segue to our topic today. You just had an op-ed hit The New York Times on cheating. Um, and I, I think this has so many implications, not just for the classroom, but for life. Um, tell me about... I get to interview you a little bit, which I love. Um, tell me about what you wrote for folks who haven't seen it yet, and why, why you wrote it. I, I can, I can... The, the Adam restrained fury is-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... bouncing off the page with this. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Did you feel it?
- BBBrené Brown
I did. I totally felt it.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I was... I don't know if I was f- more shocked or dismayed or morally outraged, but a few years ago, I gave what was gonna be my first take-home final exam in the AI era. And for a long time, I've given my students a really challenging exam because, as I explain it to them, I think what they're learning is important, and I want them to master the material. So there are some very hard multiple choice and short answer questions, and there are also some essay questions. And I wrote the exam as I always do, and the night before, I got these panic notes from a bunch of students saying, "Our classmates are planning to cheat." And what they explained to me was that they had built a custom large language model where they ingested all of the course materials, the readings, the PowerPoints, the notes they took, and they were just gonna pull that up and use it to ace the exam. And I, I, I feel like I went through the five stages of grief in, in five minutes there because, Brené, these were students I had spent the whole fall trying to, like, do everything I could to support and help, and I just took for granted that they had high moral standards, and I, I guess that was naive of me. But the idea that they would not only cheat on the course but also cheat themselves out of learning the material just, it kinda shook me to my core. And that was, uh, that was the genesis of, of wanting to tackle this topic.
- BBBrené Brown
So what did you do? W- how... What was your-
- AGAdam Grant
Well-
- BBBrené Brown
... response?
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, I, I immediately knew I couldn't give the exam as I'd planned it. And, you know, originally I was, I was extra sad because it was supposed to be an in-person exam, and through some stroke of bad luck or good luck, I don't know what, we had the last day. The, it was, like, I think most of my students were gonna be done a week earlier, but then they were gonna have to stay on campus just for my exam. And to accommodate them, I said, "Fine, we'll just, we'll do, we'll do an online exam." And that was the way they responded to take advantage of that. So I knew I had to throw out the exam I wrote. When they logged in the next day, they found only essay. There were no multiple choice questions. There were no short answer questions. And the essay that I asked them to write was about cheating, and I said, "Look, you know, I've, I've heard that some students were planning to cheat, so you just took a whole class on organizational psychology. Use course concepts to explain why might students be motivated to cheat, and how could we change that?"
- BBBrené Brown
And?
- AGAdam Grant
And I got some panicked notes from students afterward saying, "This is not what I studied for. You, you betr- you broke the contract." And I said [laughs] I don't think I'm the one who broke the contract. I, I think some of your classmates were planning to, from what I've heard. And I don't wanna penalize anyone, so I will, like, I'll give everybody a, a shot at writing these, you know, these, these responses. But I, I, I thought, Brené, I thought what I was gonna see was a handful of students would rationalize cheating in their responses, and I thought those would potentially be the cheaters, and everybody else would tell me how upsetting it is that students would do this, and it's not the norm. And what I got back was night and day different from that.
- BBBrené Brown
What'd you get back? [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
You're just gonna make me tell it all, aren't you?
- BBBrené Brown
I, I am. I'm gonna make you take it all... Yeah, I am, because-
- AGAdam Grant
Ugh
- BBBrené Brown
... um-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, it was so sad. It was so sad
- BBBrené Brown
I'm not, I'm-
- AGAdam Grant
It was-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. G- t-
- AGAdam Grant
Go ahead
- BBBrené Brown
What did you get back, is the thing
- AGAdam Grant
No, no. Go. No, no. I want to hear it.
- BBBrené Brown
No.
- AGAdam Grant
I want to hear.
- BBBrené Brown
I, no, I wanna know. Mm-mm. No, you go. What, what did you get back?
- AGAdam Grant
All right. Well, the s- the students who said cheating is wrong were in the minority.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Most of the students made excuses. They said, "Well, you know, an Ivy League school is a pressure cooker, and we're just, we're stressed, and everyone cheats." And so it's like, it was almost like they were Major League baseball players during the doping era, and they just said, "Look, like, you gotta use ChatGPT as your performance-enhancing drug."
- 9:36 – 11:35
Is Using AI Always Cheating?
- BBBrené Brown
it cheating? M- Yeah, I don't... Yes. I think s- I don't know. I, I am conflicted about is AI use cheating? Um, is it do we need to be teaching students today how to use AI without losing their own sense of discernment and critical thinking? Um, I'm not sure that I am anti or for. I just don't... I agree that cheating is bad. I mean, I just, I just couldn't cheat.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I don't know. I, but I, I can get morally superior very quickly. I do think there's a lack of integrity, um, and I'm wondering if we're testing for the right things.
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh. Well, that raises a lot of questions. C- I w- I wanna pick up on one thing you said-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... which is, "I can get morally superior very quickly."
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I think, I think that's, like [laughs] you say that as if it's, it's a risk and you're trying to avoid it. But here, I actually think it's a benefit, and I think part of the problem is, like, that's missing. Like, where, where is the, [laughs] like, where is the sense of honor and integrity around, "Okay, I'm supposed to learn this material. I'm lying and saying that I didn't, and I'm okay with that"? And how do you look in the mirror at night? How do you feel like you earned a transcript with a grade on it that is work you did not produce yourself?
- BBBrené Brown
I couldn't. Like-
- AGAdam Grant
I want students to be more self-righteous about that.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, I couldn't because it would make me physically ill. It would make me physically ill.
- 11:35 – 14:23
Should Integrity Depend on the Stakes?
- BBBrené Brown
Um, it was interesting. I was playing pickleball yesterday, and there was a ball that I called my, our, you know, our, the, our opponents hit a ball, and it was a really great ball, and my partner and I looked at each other about the call, and I said, "I think we call it in. It was too close." And it was interesting because he said, "On a tournament, I would've called it out." And I was like, "I, I didn't-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... I didn't..." I, it was the first time, it was the first time I had heard that, but f- as the, as the rest of the open play went- I had heard, I heard it two or three more times. Man, tournament call, I would've called that out. So I call my friend Chaz, who was actually my CFO, and we've known each other for 30 years, and I said, "What is this new language I'm hearing?" And he said, "Oh, it's kinda people saying I'll call it in, but in a high-stakes situation, I was gonna, I'd probably call that out." And, and then he paused for a second, and he's like, "You would hate that shit." And I was... said, "Yeah, because-
- AGAdam Grant
It's wrong
- BBBrené Brown
... if it's too close to call, whether the stakes are high or low-
- AGAdam Grant
Shouldn't matter
- BBBrené Brown
... you call the ball in. You don't call the ball out."
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
That's just being a good ca- a good sport, a good opponent, a good competitor.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, but I think the downside is... Nope, there's no downside for me, actually. I was gonna say for the downside for some people is they could feel like a schmuck. Like, I'm the only... I have a, a, this set of rules that I'm following that no one else is following, and that makes me a schmuck. I don't feel like that, but I, I just have a... Yeah, I'd rather lose 1,000 times over than cheat.
- AGAdam Grant
Same. Same. Recently, I, I discovered my college recommendation letters, and my physics teacher wrote that I was a, a rare student of high integrity because I not only reported an incident of cheating that I observed, but I helped him design a system to prevent it moving forward. And I, I, I was... I had no idea that... [laughs] I was like, "Of course everyone would do that." And I remember talking to, I guess, a fellow nerd [laughs] about it, and he said, "I don't see anything wrong with cheating." And I, I said, "What do you mean? How could you not see anything wrong with cheating? Like, you, you've aced so many tests." And he said, "Yeah, I don't cheat 'cause I don't have to, not 'cause I don't see a problem with it." And I, I remember just being disgusted, and now I feel like this is increasingly a stance among students.
- BBBrené Brown
I think it's true. I think it, I think it is.
- AGAdam Grant
Why?
- 14:23 – 20:27
Why Cheating Is Becoming Normalized
- AGAdam Grant
Like, why is it happening? It, it seems like in part it's just the stakes have gone up and the difficulty has gone down.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, but I mean, like, look at... Like, look outside. Like, every leader, with very few exceptions, around the world, corruption, coercion, you know? Like, I, I, I, I... Do you, do you see a lot of people getting ahead by how we measure getting ahead? I mean, do, are you seeing billionaires with, that are, you know, really embracing progressive labor movements among their employees or, you know, are they squashing... I mean, like, I, I just think, like, I don't know. I, I don't... It's the payoff has got to be internal. And-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... and I don't even know that I feel that way about cheating because I feel good about myself when I'm honest, or that I can't live with the consequences of doing it. And, and I don't know which is which, and it's maybe a little bit of both, but, like-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... um, I don't know. I, what I also see is in high-pressure competitive academic environments or high-pressure work environments, um, the leadership, for the most part, sends the messaging win by all means-
- AGAdam Grant
Costs
- BBBrené Brown
... necessary. And-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... and if you win by dubious means, that's almost called innovation and ingenuity these days. So I, I, I don't know. I feel like we're-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... I don't know. I feel like we're... Are we, like, cognitive fuddy-duddies who have succeeded in systems that, to some degree, were built for us to succeed, and now we're in situations and, you know, systems where not everyone is... They're not built for everyone to succeed, and people are seeing the whole world rewarded for things that... Let me, let me ask this question. Let me ask a question, and I want you to suspend disbelief to answer it a little bit, which I know is, you're gonna hate.
- AGAdam Grant
Bring it.
- BBBrené Brown
Student A and student B take your class, and student A follows all the rules, zero cheating, would turn somebody in who cheats, you know, is that, is that person. And s- student B is gonna build the LLM, use, use AI, and in a year when you test them, they have the same degree of mastery from your course. Um, they, they, they're the same. Are you upset because of the morality of cheating, or are you upset because cheating threatens mastery?
- AGAdam Grant
Both.
- BBBrené Brown
No pause.
- AGAdam Grant
Both. No pause. It's, there's... I, I have a principled objection, which is it's just wrong. [laughs] You, you, you can't... You, you-
- BBBrené Brown
Did you tell them they couldn't build an LLM?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, of course. The, it was a closed-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, okay
- AGAdam Grant
... book exam So it was supposed to be an in-person proctored exam
- BBBrené Brown
Got it. Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... and I let them do it online instead. And, uh, yeah, [laughs] they, they definitely know that, they knew, they, they were very clear on the fact that it would not be allowable to Google an answer, let alone to use AI to get an answer.
- BBBrené Brown
You know, if we take this from classroom to work, there's something interesting that, um, there was a quote in here that I think a student wrote you that I, I see at work all the time. Someone in your survey-
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh, tell me.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, someone in your survey wrote, "Cheating is a creative expression and a form of problem-solving. If you can get around the restrictions put in place and not get caught, then good on you."
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
There's not a part-
- AGAdam Grant
Yep
- BBBrené Brown
... of you that's like, "Let me think about that"?
- 20:27 – 23:00
Why Proctoring Isn't the Solution
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, so you're proposing, you're proposing a solution in your op-ed that I really wanna get into. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
Me too.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Talk about what you found.
- AGAdam Grant
Th- this brings us to the other, the other reason that I wanted to write this is I think that the problem is, is more severe than I thought it was. But also, I don't think we're talking about the right solutions. Because when I hear my colleagues who teach classes and when I talk with university presidents about how to stop cheating, it's all about proctoring. They've said, "Okay, we're gonna ... You know, we're not writing papers anymore. We're going back to blue book writing because we wanna be able to observe and make sure it's really yours. Um, take home assignments are more and more problematic, and so we're just gonna watch everything." You can't monitor everything. That's not-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- AGAdam Grant
... the solution.
- BBBrené Brown
No. I mean, and-
- AGAdam Grant
It's not doable, right?
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, God almighty, if I have to grade blue books again, I'm gonna, I'm ... This is ... I'm retiring.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, we got, we got rid of cursive for a reason.
- BBBrené Brown
[gasps]
- AGAdam Grant
Or at least I-
- BBBrené Brown
That-
- AGAdam Grant
I, I can't write in cursive anymore. You probably love it, don't you?
- BBBrené Brown
Yes, and the science proves it. How could you be against the science selectively about cursive?
- AGAdam Grant
I don't think I know the science on cursive. Tell me.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God, I'm gonna look it up-
- AGAdam Grant
I know, I know handwriting-
- BBBrené Brown
... before this is over
- AGAdam Grant
... is better than typing.
- BBBrené Brown
And cursing is, cursive is better than cursing and cursive.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
That is the, that is the most powerful-
- AGAdam Grant
You're, you're here for both.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
This is-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I am because-
- AGAdam Grant
That's a, that's a Freudian slip, Brené style. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I, I believe in cursing and cursive, you bet, in equal measure. Um, I will find that research for you and put it in the show notes. Um, but yeah, I can't, I can't grade blue books anymore. Like, that-
- AGAdam Grant
No
- 23:00 – 25:23
How Moral Identity Can Prevent Cheating
- AGAdam Grant
So I, I, I've spent a bunch of time thinking about this, uh, you know, did a deep dive into the research on what do we know about what else prevents cheating, and the answer that came out again and again in the data is identity. It's the point that you made earlier, Brené, that it's gotta come from within. If, you know, if we can't, if we cre- if we can't create a, a permanent system of monitoring or reward and punishment externally, then we're looking at internal motivation. And in the research on cheating, I think there's, there's a whole set of studies that I think captures it really well, which is the basic finding is across a set of experiments, when you raise the stakes of getting a good grade or acing a quiz, cheating goes up because people want the reward, and they're willing to cut corners to get it. Except there are some people who aren't more likely to cheat when the stakes go up, and those are people with strong moral identities who have internalized a sense of honor and integrity. And I think as you were suggesting earlier, they both feel good when they do the right thing, and they also feel awful If they even consider doing the wrong thing, and that both fear of being a bad person and desire to be a good person is enough to get them to resist whatever temptation they feel, not only to cheat, but also to lie or steal or do anything else unethical. And I think I came away from this believing that we have essentially abandoned the idea of instilling a moral identity in our students and maybe in our children, too, and that's a mistake.
- BBBrené Brown
And how, what are the, what does the research say about the best way to instill moral identity? I know it's not, I know it's not shame, and I know it's not attaching someone's moral identity to their sense of self-worth, um, that if you, if you engage in these behaviors that are dishonest, you're a terrible person. Um, I don't, I don't think that works. So how, how would you... What do, what does the research tell us is the right way to increase moral identity?
- 25:23 – 28:11
Shame vs. Guilt
- AGAdam Grant
Well, this is, this is exactly what I wanted to ask you. Are, are you-
- BBBrené Brown
I'll go first
- AGAdam Grant
... how confident are you that a little bit of shame isn't helpful here? Because I think at least anticipated shame is one of the, the common experiences of people with strong moral identity. Like, y- I think, and maybe, maybe shame is the, is the wrong flavor of it, but when I heard you say a moment ago, like, "I would feel, u- like, I feel physically ill at the thought of doing this," isn't there shame attached to the idea of saying, "If I were to cheat, I would, I would have a view of myself that is, you know... Like, I would come to think of myself as a bad person, and so I can't even contemplate that."
- BBBrené Brown
No. So for me, that would not be shame. That would be... And, and again, I think if you look at the correlation between shame and behaviors like aggression, violence, um, outcomes like addiction, depression, I don't, I think shame is far too blunt of an instrument. The-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... what would m- what I would feel, what I could anticipatorily feel if I cheated is the, is the, is guilt and the cognitive dissonance of engaging in a behavior that's different than who I want to be and how I see myself. So-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... the sickening feeling for me is cognitive dissonance. Um, there's a lack of alignment between who I am, who I believe I am and who I say I am, and a behavior I just engaged in, which is kind of classic adaptive guilt. Now-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... in these studies, I wouldn't be surprised if they used terms like anticipatory shame because I don't think a lot of researchers spend a lot of time teasing out shame, guilt, humiliation, and embarrassment.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, but the reason why I think guilt is more helpful here is it doesn't seem like based on your survey of your students that shame is a mediating variable making them feel bad. So I think if you are really talking about moral identity, what moral identity I believe does is creates cognitive dissonance when we act outside of who we think we are and who we say we are, and I think that's adaptive guilt.
- AGAdam Grant
I think that's exactly right.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I think that's adaptive.
- AGAdam Grant
But you didn't need to ask me that question. You knew the answer.
- BBBrené Brown
No, but I do think, I think there's a lot of questions embedded in that because, you know, I... We could take this into r- an arena that's really, you know, for us, if...
- 28:11 – 33:10
Where Do We Draw the Line on Dishonesty?
- BBBrené Brown
Do you say you watched a film when you watch the trailer and a few snippets on, on social? Do you, you know, do you do an interview on a podcast with an author if you haven't read every word of, uh, of the book or, or whatever? You know, like w- do we think students are reading every word of assigned reading? And if they don't read... Let me tell you something. As a PhD student, we had 1,500, 2,000 pages sometimes a week, uh, that we had to read. I read for utility. Like, I read for utility, and if a professor looked at me and said, "Did you do the readings?" I'm gonna say... I don't know what I would've said, but I probably would've said yes, because I read them for utility and I c- you could... I'm prepared to answer any questions-
- AGAdam Grant
Quiz me
- BBBrené Brown
... you have for me.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Quiz me. Quiz me. But quiz me, mother trucker, is different than-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
It's still, I probably said yes, I read. And so-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- BBBrené Brown
... so where's my line, you know? And so what I'm wondering about is are we talking about cheaters versus, you know, cheating and not cheating, dishonesty and honesty? Are we talking about moral ambiguity?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And what role do we have in saying, "Let me tell you what's not ambiguous in this course and what's ambiguous."
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
If you wanna read the book, you read the book any way you want, but I'm gonna take full ac- you know, full authority to quiz you on any part of it that I want to, you know? Um-
- AGAdam Grant
I love that framing of it. Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
You know, and if, and if I say, "Here's what I need," I always tell my students, 'cause I think this is true, "I have signed a contract, a legal contract with this university saying that I'm gonna cover this information and that upon com- successful completion of this course, I can almost, you know, promise the university that you understand the following things."
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And I take that obligation super seriously. Um, so if at the end of the class, I feel like they have mastered that material, am I overly invested in how?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm just asking. I don't know. I don't know the answer. I'm grappling.
- AGAdam Grant
No, I don't, I don't think you should be.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm grappling.
- AGAdam Grant
But, but when, when you can no longer gauge whether they've mastered the material or not, because they may just be copying their answers from an AI tool, [laughs] right, then, then you have a problem.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, but do you ever get to the point... I gotta be honest with you, like, this is a hard conversation, and I, I feel like this at work too sometimes. Do you ever get to the point where you're just like, "Screw it"? Um, I have a piece of the course that's self-graded, and I can always predict the students who are gonna be harsher on themselves and more-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... probably appropriately evaluative, and those that are just gonna give themselves the straight highest grade. And I don't fight them, because-
- AGAdam Grant
Hm
- BBBrené Brown
... if that's the way you choose to live your life, I, I am gonna spend zero interest and energy on that. If you come to me, however, for a recommendation on anything, zero chance, and I'll tell you exactly why I'm not gonna give it to you.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Same.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
But I-
- 33:10 – 34:33
What Counts as Cheating?
- BBBrené Brown
if we bucket what we're talking about, because we're sliding into related areas that are different. And so I wanna be really clear about, um, cheating is, you know, basically... Well, maybe this is the discussion we're having and I don't know it, but cheating to me is an active behavior of breaking agreed-upon rules for your benefit.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
I, I find no moral ambiguity in that whatsoever.
- AGAdam Grant
Nope. Very clear.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, yeah, very clear to me. Um, using whatever your methodologies are that are within the confines of the rules, to varying degrees, read it off by word, read summaries, get a SparkNote, whatever, and being willing to be held accountable for mastery of the material, I'm, I'm actually okay with.
- AGAdam Grant
Same.
- BBBrené Brown
AI does not always equi- e- equate to cheating for me. Um, so it's really about...
- 34:33 – 35:21
Setting Clear Rules for AI at Work
- BBBrené Brown
And this was in actually the AMA we did for The Curiosity Shop, um, why I'm seeing trust implode on teams right now.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
Because they haven't gone through an exercise as a team of saying, "Here's what's okay for AI use in our team and here's what's not okay."
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Just two columns. You know, you can use it for background information. You cannot use it for discernment. You can use it, you have to let us know when you use it. You can't use it and not disclose when it's being used. You know, like, those kind of just basic rules.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
So it, it sounds like we're pretty much aligned.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I think we are.
- BBBrené Brown
The only place where, the only place where I am not, I'm unsure is,
- 35:21 – 38:08
What Research Says About Teaching Ethics
- BBBrené Brown
tell me about the research in the op-ed where what was effective teaching of ethical awareness and what wasn't. Some pretty big studies.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
What did you learn?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, the, the, the data are powerful here, and I actually, I think this goes to the question of let's go to the next level of how do you actually develop a moral identity-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... or activate a moral identity.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Because I, I, I think you, I think you captured it beautifully when you said, "I don't want shame. I might want some adaptive guilt." But how, how do we cultivate that? So let's, let's just do a quick walkthrough of what we know. There have been a whole series of experiments where, uh, you try to use an honor code or an honesty pledge, and the results are inconsistent. Sometimes you see a reduction in cheating. Sometimes you see no effect. Sometimes you actually see an increase in cheating. And the, the experiment that, that really stopped me in my tracks on this showed that if you ask students to sign an honesty pledge before an exam, the rate of cheating doubled. And-
- BBBrené Brown
Is it, is the messaging, "Wow, everybody's doing this. This is why we have to sign it," so it's normalizing it?
- AGAdam Grant
Exactly. Yeah. It, it seems to be that if you're not careful, when, when you ask everybody to sign an oath saying, "I'm gonna do the right thing," you're implicitly messaging, "You know what? Everybody's cheating." And then students assume, "Well, I guess it's, I guess it's normal."
- BBBrené Brown
Table stakes.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. So that does not work well.
- BBBrené Brown
Wait, can I stop you here? Can I stop you here and ask a question? What do we know about these, or do we know... I think of, some universities pop into my mind right off the bat that have very strong, kind of that's part of their marketing material. Do we know anything from those universities? Am I right in saying, like, UVA has a really big one? Um, like, what do we know from those? Anything from university-wide honor codes? Don't know?
- AGAdam Grant
Don't know. It's a really good question. I, I think they're hard to study in a controlled way because they're so embedded in the institution that you don't really have a control group. And so, you know, are you, are you attracting... Le- let's say, like, let's say UVA has a great honor code, and they also seem to have lower rates of cheating than other schools. Is it because you attracted students who cared about integrity and they wanted to be UVA students? Is it that [laughs] you've actually changed their behavior in some way through the code? For me, the jury's out. Do you, do you have any sense of it?
- BBBrené Brown
I don't have a sense of it, but this is where I think shit goes bad very quickly,
- 38:08 – 40:18
The Problem With Unequal Enforcement
- BBBrené Brown
is the enforcement of honor codes randomly, and enforcing those honor codes and letting some folks of privilege slide.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
So unequal enforcement based on identity and power, um, I think is the fastest, uh, stake through the heart of any kind of trust, honor code, ethic, is when there, when the accountability is unevenly applied and when privilege and power are mediating variables around accountability. That, that is so problematic to me. And again, I'm not... I mean, I'm just, I've seen that over and over. And so when we're like, "Hey, we have these rules, and we're gonna enforce them only against groups that have no access to power and are in systems not built for them." So I, I just, I've never seen persuasive data on what we're talking about, so I think it's interesting that you haven't either. So-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... let's just keep going. What else? What have you seen?
- AGAdam Grant
No, I'm, I am with you there, and I, uh, you reminded me of John Amaechi's definition of culture. He says culture is the worst behavior tolerated. And-
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, that's it
- AGAdam Grant
... like, if you, if you, if you let students because daddy or mommy is rich or because they, you know, are an athlete, if you let them get away with things that others wouldn't, guess what? You don't have a culture of integrity.
- BBBrené Brown
No. And-
- AGAdam Grant
You're choosing to tolerate that behavior.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. And in those systems, it's, it's fight club, baby. Like, it's, it's everybody for themselves because that's what you've built.
- AGAdam Grant
And it's a culture of silence, too. What's the first rule of fight club?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. No fight club.
- AGAdam Grant
We don't talk about fight club.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. Okay, so what, what, what was effective? Are there effective ways to increase or change moral identity or build it?
- 40:18 – 46:14
How to Build a Stronger Moral Identity
- AGAdam Grant
So I think in terms of activating it, assuming that, you know, everybody has some degree of it, some people hold it more strongly than others, there was an experiment with over 20,000 people which basically reduced cheating by reminding students of the moral implications of their actions. And there were a few different ways to do this that I, I thought were interesting. One that I never would've thought of was to disrupt the tendency to compartmentalize. Uh, we've, we've-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... all seen people say, "Well, you know, I, I did this, but that little instance of cheating, no, that doesn't make me a cheater," or, [laughs] "You know what? Everybody's doing this, and therefore, it's not really cheating." Um, the, the way to interrupt that tendency was to say, "I..." It was, it was to give students a pledge that said, "I understand that honesty is an all or nothing concept." In other words, you're either honest or you're not, and you confront that, and you say, "Huh, I can't, I can't, like, cheat a little and say, 'But I'm not a cheater,' because I'm either honest or I'm cheating, and I've gotta choose." I thought that was clever. What did you think of that one?
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, it's very Yoda.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Do or do not. There is no try.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. [laughs] I mean, do or do not, right? It's-
- AGAdam Grant
Do or do not.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. That, that's... God dang, that was good. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
Was it?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I don't know. I, I need to work on my Yoda impression.
- BBBrené Brown
No, it's really good. Um, yeah, I think, I think it's got a ba- I think it's got... I think there's a potential backlash, but let's keep going.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so a second way to activate moral identity or appeal to it was to remind students of just a deep-seated sense of justice and fairness that maybe, maybe they subscribe to in the abstract, but they hadn't linked it to, "Well, what am I gonna do on this exam?" And the way of doing that was to ask them to sign a statement that said, "I understand that dishonesty is a fraudulent way of getting something I don't deserve." That one spoke to me, 'cause that, I think that got, for me, it got right to the heart of, but you are then, like, you're getting a re- you're, you're claiming a reward that you did not earn.
- BBBrené Brown
I don't know. I, I, I just see, when you say those sta- statements, just to be honest with you, I just see how people could dismantle them in a microsecond.
- AGAdam Grant
Tell me.
- BBBrené Brown
So say the statement again.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so the statement is, "I understand that dishonesty is a fraudulent way of getting something I don't deserve."
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. And there's nobody in here getting anything that they deserve. This place is so screwed up. The system is so screwed up. No one is getting what they deserve except for a couple of people, and I'm gonna get exactly what I deserve by any means necessary, um, in a system that's completely flawed. And how much, how much, you know, how much cryptocurrency does the president deserve during a presidency? You know, and how much-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Or on, a- and, and on both-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... sides of the aisle, how much early insider trading does anyone who's an elected representative deser- like, like, like, this, we're not in a system. I mean, I can just see, I, I-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... and, and I, and the worst thing is, again, I don't wanna be the proponent for cheating in this conversation, 'cause I'm not built for it, but when systems are corrupt and bankrupt, it makes it so hard.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Like, I, I just, um, like for me, the sentence that would work, so we've got, "I understand that honesty is an all or nothing concept. I understand that dishonesty is a fraudulent way of getting something I don't deserve." Um, the last one got to me. Do you wanna read the last one?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, interesting. Yeah. The, uh, this is, this is the one that I found least compelling. It's so interesting that it's the one that spoke to you.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Wait, before we go to it, I just wanna, wanna say one thing on the, on the fraudulent one. I think that, I think you're pointing out, I think you're right that a lot of people can rationalize it by saying, "Hey, but everybody around me is getting something they don't deserve. Why not me, too?" I wonder if that's why it's not more effective. It is one of the most effective statements that's been tested, but [laughs] there's still a lot of noise in that effect, and I wonder if it would be better if there's an addition to it that goes something along the lines of this. "I understand that dishonesty is a fraudulent way of getting something I don't deserve. I recognize that there are people who have gotten where they are through that, and I don't wanna contribute to that system. I don't wanna be part of that system, because I believe in creating something fair and just and better."
- BBBrené Brown
So now we're gonna lie-
- 46:14 – 48:57
Are We Motivated by Who We Fear Becoming?
- BBBrené Brown
And some of us motivated, I'm gonna tie this to shame research, this is really interesting. Some of us motivated by who we don't wanna be, and some of us motivated more by who we absolutely want to be. Does that make sense?
- AGAdam Grant
It does. It reminds me of the Tori Higgins research on self-discrepancy theory, and how there are ideal and ought selves. And, or we could go to Hazel Markus and say hoped for versus feared possible selves. Which one is stronger? And my hunch is, although I haven't seen good data on this, my hunch is that in general, the prevention avoidance messaging is more effective in the realm of cheating than the promotion approach. Because you can still feel like a good person in other ways, whereas [laughs] if, if you do this and that makes you think you might have done something wrong, there's no way around that.
- BBBrené Brown
It's interesting. I don't know. I think when I go to Tamara Ferguson's research on unwanted identity and how the quintessential-
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh
- BBBrené Brown
... elicitor, the, the quintessential elicitor of shame is unwanted identity.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
I do not want to be perceived as. And then when we ask people to list those, they can, they can list those very quickly. I don't wanna be perceived as, you know, they can list a million things. Not good enough, um, ugly. You know, I mean, you could do a thousand.
- AGAdam Grant
Unintelligent.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Unkind. Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
But to get to unwanted, to really understand shame in our lives and how it operates, we also have to understand it is critically important to me that I am perceived as.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And so a lot of times we'll unearth things there that don't come up. They're not always the opposite of what comes up, like, you know, I wanna be, I don't wanna be perceived as not smart. It's important to me that I'm perceived as smart. We don't see that as much as we see, um, just these kind of random things. And for me- I don't know if it's 'cause I feel more control over how I'm perceived rather than how I, you know, I don't wanna be perceived 'cause I can't control that. But I can act in ways... I don't know. I, I think it's-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... I think this is very, very much points to... Okay, can I just take us on a non-sequitur for work?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes, please.
- 48:57 – 52:12
The Seven Dimensions of Trust
- BBBrené Brown
So one of the things that we learned in the Dare to Lead research was how difficult it is to bring folks in on one-on-ones to talk about trust. And, you know, and what do we mean when we mean trust? And how do we define trust? And what is trust? And so we came up with the acronym BRAVING for trust: boundaries, reliability, accountability, vault or confidentiality, integrity, which is where this would fall, non-judgment and generosity or assumption of positive intent. So these are the seven elements of trust that we train and teach and we measure. Boundaries, reliability, accountability, vault, integrity, non-judgment and generosity. There is some debate, especially in the practice community, around trust. Now, fa- 'cause, like... So let's say y- I work for you, you bring me in, and we're doing our once-a-quarter kind of trust check-in on BRAVING, which is what we encourage people to do so that trust conversations are not weird. Here's where I think we're strong. Here's where we could work together. Some people think that the trust score is an average of all of those. So l- I give you five points out of o- you know
- AGAdam Grant
Nope
- BBBrené Brown
... but some people believe it's the product, and if any of them are a zero, then you don't trust somebody at all. Why did you say, why'd you say nope so fast?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I said nope in part because they don't all have equal weights. But also, there are some dimensions that, that drive it to zero if you fail on them.
- BBBrené Brown
Same way-
- AGAdam Grant
That depends on the task, though, and what you have to trust the person to do, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. So yeah, I'm coming to the conclusion that I do believe that trust can be dimensional, that I can count you-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... I can count on you around reliability and accountability, um, you're delivering on time, you're l- delivering good deliverables, but I don't really trust you on vault. I d- I don't share confidential-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... things with you 'cause I know that you're a spreader of... You, you like social capital, so you're always r- running around-
- AGAdam Grant
Gossiping
- BBBrené Brown
... yeah, telling people shit that you shouldn't, you know. And so I kinda believe that you can have high levels of dimension. Um, I don't know if you can have any zeroes. I haven't decided yet.
- AGAdam Grant
I, yeah, I, the, I mean, it's so interesting. I, I love your seven dimensions, and they capture... Vault is a missing dimension of trust in, in my world of, of management and organizational psychology, where trust breaks down to integrity, benevolence, ability and sometimes reliability. Like, wait a minute, I guess, I guess that's just lumped under integrity as another facet of it. But it's, it's a different phenomenon because we all know high-integrity people that would not cheat, for example, but are very comfortable sharing information that's confidential with others. And what I've seen in our data is when people form a positive impression of you on one dimension of trust, they tend to assume that you're trustworthy on all the others-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... until, until something happens that bites them, and all of a sudden they realize, "Oh, no." And then sometimes they overreact and just decide you're not trustworthy, period. But I think the more nuanced reaction is exactly what you said, which is, "Oh, I now know I can trust you to do this, but not that."
- 52:12 – 54:35
Why Confidentiality Is Part of Trust
- BBBrené Brown
What's interesting, too, about vault that really freaks people out, I mean, every time we teach this, which is all the time, I just taught it in the MBA program, um, is people... So this, I'll give you... We'll do a little role play. I co- you call me into the office, and we're doing our trust kind of audit once, couple times a year, which I love 'cause that means we can have really explicit conversations about trust. They're not, you know, we're naming it, we're talking about the importance of building trust. We're talking about the dimensions of trust. And you say, "Where I think we're really struggling right now, Brené, is vault." And I said, "You know what, Adam? I, I don't get it. You share highly confidential proprietary things with me all the time, and I have not once shared any of those things with anybody."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And then you say, "I know, but you often come in here and share things with me that are not yours to share." And that's when, like, a whole group of people, when I explain that, go, "Wait, what?"
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And then I said, "You know, raise your hand if you wanna be on the receiving end a really good gossip chisme." Everybody's like, "Yes." And I said, "And raise your hand when that person leaves your office if you trust them less." Everybody raises their hand, and they're like, "Oh my God, the other side of the vault." It's not just that you'll keep what I share with you confidential, it's that you don't share things with me that are not yours to share.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
You know? And so-
- AGAdam Grant
So important
- BBBrené Brown
... yeah, but so misunderstood. Do you know what I mean? It's like we just don't talk about both of those sides. And it's interesting because in teams where someone has shared, "You know, I've, I've received that feedback before, that I share too much, especially with my boss," I'll get under, like, "Tell me what's driving it. When you do it and it feel... In- how does it feel?" "It feels great. It feels like I'm being helpful." And then we talk about social capital, and we talk about, you know, the awkward situation that can put people in and how they just trust you less. So I think it's-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... I didn't think we'd end up here, but I do think-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] It's really important
- BBBrené Brown
... I do think the, the last The last couple of lines of your op-ed is everything we're talking about.
- 54:35 – 57:08
Why the Ends Don't Justify the Means
- BBBrené Brown
"The heart of integrity is recognized at the, recognizing that the ends don't justify the means. What we achieve may define our success, but how we achieve it determines our character." Like, I think that's so important.
- AGAdam Grant
I do too. I think the means are a measure of our character, and we live in a world, unfortunately, that only measures the ends, not the means. Uh, it- the means are hard to measure, they're often unobservable, and that's why people take shortcuts or cut corners or cheat. And I think that, you know, it's so interesting, you're... I know you're trying to wrap this up here, but I have to, I have to comment-
- BBBrené Brown
No, do
- AGAdam Grant
... on two things that I think-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... are so interesting. One is in Braving, when you talk about the, the V, so the other side of vault, I think what you're doing there is you're helping people realize that's actually an integrity violation, and they're not aware of it. So it may be somebody with a strong moral identity who has not connected the practice of disclosing somebody else's secret or confidential information with somebody that they trust as a violation.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. Yes. I think that's right, and I think that's where people are like, "Oh, shit." Um, yeah, it's huge, and it's interesting. You would love our definition of integrity for, that we use for our work, which i- 'cause this would, this will really make you crazy with your cheating issue. Um, integrity-
- AGAdam Grant
Uh-oh.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, integrity is actively practicing your values, not just professing them, and doing what's right, not what's fun, fast, or easy.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. Nailed it. Nailed it.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
This is, this is one of my favorite versions of Brené Brown, is the you go out into the world and study something that everybody thinks they already understand, and you come up with a more nuanced, more complex, more comprehensive understanding of it. You make it, you synthesize it in a way that makes it digestible so that people can actually, like, pulse check in their relationships, in their interactions, so they can look in the mirror and see how they're doing on these dimensions. And you help us see something both more clearly and also more complexly than we would have otherwise. I love that. I love that so much. And-
- BBBrené Brown
Aw, thank you
- AGAdam Grant
... it's, it's, it, it's, it's really powerful. It, you know, it also, I think it, it underscores the other thing that I, I'm really
- 57:08 – 59:01
Moral Identity vs. Moral Image
- AGAdam Grant
thinking about as a result of this conversation, which is a, I think a l- a lot of people make the mistake of conflating moral identity with moral image, right? I wanna be perceived as a good person. I don't wanna be seen as a bad person. At the end of the day, that just makes you vulnerable to what everyone else is doing, right? That opens up the possibility that if everybody else is cheating or a lot of people are cheating, then you know what? They're not gonna judge me negatively, so this is okay here, or this is okay now.
- BBBrené Brown
Wow.
- AGAdam Grant
I think moral identity has gotta be about your self-concept. It has to be about, I don't wanna see myself as a person who would do that. I wanna see myself as a person who does the right thing, and I think that's, that's what we've gotta be doing in homes and schools and workplaces, is laying out really clearly what it means to see yourself as a good person, as a person of, in this case, honor and integrity. And then what are the behaviors that if you engaged in would violate that? What are the behaviors that if you do them consistently would uphold that? And I think that's how we nurture moral identity, is we engage kids, starting when they're young, in the process of reflecting on, what kind of person do I wanna see myself as, and what do I need to do in order to earn that, that identity? And what do I need to make sure also I don't do in order to avoid developing that sense of me?
- BBBrené Brown
I, I think, I think this is the heart of everything we've been talking about, moral image, which is so v- vulnerable and susceptible to... It, it is, it's movable. It's movable. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... moral identity, not movable. Um, and
- 59:01 – 1:03:40
Honesty as a Daily Practice
- BBBrené Brown
what's really interesting to me is I think honesty is a discipline and a practice, and I think you're faced with those things 50 times a day. Like, I remember when, I remember getting to the car, um, you know, Charlie's a baby. I, I r- I think I wrote about this in a book as an example. Um, Charlie's a baby. Ellen's, you know, we're picking up a poster board, i- is why, I think we're at H-E-B, our grocery store. And I run in, Charlie's crying, um, and I get back, and I'd paid cash, and they gave me a 20 instead of a 10. And like, in that split second, I was like, "Charlie's too young to learn the lesson anyway." But then I'm like, "Ellen," you know, I'm like, "Oh, Ellen's..." You know, it's like, all right, well, you know, I've got them in their car seats. I'm like, "We gotta go back in," and you know, and they're like, "H-E-B has a lot of money, but this is not mine." You know, and it's, it's, it's 1,000 times a day where we have to make those decisions. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... and I, I think it's, and I don't know that I always make them. I don't know that I... I will debate you if it's a violent movie that I can't watch. I will watch enough of it to debate you about the meaning of that movie, having seen, you know, five-eighths of it, you know? Um- And then when the person goes, "Did you watch the movie?" I'm like, "Did you watch the movie?"
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
You know? Um, and-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... yeah, I, I, I think I'm imperfect around this. I think-
- AGAdam Grant
That's your, that's your white lie.
- BBBrené Brown
No, I mean, it's... I think there's, I mean, yeah. What do you think of my new haircut? Awesome. Um, like, I think, um, yeah, I'm not, I'm, I'm prob- I could always get better, but I do think it's a discipline that I care about, and I don't think it's ever gonna be externally motivated.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Which is why-
- AGAdam Grant
No, I think that-
- BBBrené Brown
... I think it's more guilt than shame.
- AGAdam Grant
I think that resonates. Yeah, I was, I was thinking about what my version of this is, and it's, it's very similar, although I would just say I think I watched [laughs] enough of the movie to, to have the debate with you, but to be honest, I didn't want those images in my head.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
So I turned it off. I, but I think, I think my version of this is similar, which is I don't wanna hurt somebody's feelings, and so I will sometimes withhold what could be a constructive criticism because I don't think they can handle it, and I'll just say, "Yeah, I thought that was great," when I really thought it was okay or pretty good and I've got some notes.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I mean, I think now we're into, like, a different area that I think... I just think that it's really, it's, it's, it's been a great conversation, I think, because we started with, you know, intentionally breaking rules to get a better grade regardless of the rules, um, just cheating. And it gets, I don't know. I think my, my takeaway is Yoda, "Do or don't." You know? I mean, you just have to make a decision, and I think you have to make a decision. I think what's also interesting is if you're interested in the rumble, the internal rumble, I think it's worth figuring out the messaging that speaks to you the most, and it doesn't have to be the same for all of us. It's about who I wanna be, not who, about who am I f- I'm afraid that I could be. I, I wanna, I wanna r- my reminders that work for me is, you know, I say to my... I don't say to myself, "Hey, you, you, you know, let's skip working. You know, I gotta go work out today 'cause I don't wanna be," whatever the word is. I, what works for me is I'm gonna go work out today 'cause I think of myself as an athlete. That's my identity, you know?
- AGAdam Grant
And you have to earn that identity every day.
- BBBrené Brown
On the senior tour, but nonetheless. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
It's good conversation. I appreciate it.
- AGAdam Grant
Right back at ya. [bell dings]
- BBBrené Brown
The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education and Research group and Grant Ed Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.
- AGAdam Grant
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.
Episode duration: 1:03:41
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Transcript of episode eanKMulSj1g
