The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantCan We Build an “Us” Without a “Them”? With John Green | The Curiosity Shop
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55 min read · 10,632 words- 0:00 – 1:16
Welcome, John Green!
- BBBrené Brown
Hey there, Adam Grant.
- AGAdam Grant
Hey, Brené Brown.
- BBBrené Brown
I am so in for today. I am, I am locked in and ready.
- AGAdam Grant
Me too. I, I am so excited to introduce you to my friend, John Green. He's one of the most generous and generative people on the planet. I think our audience might know him as an award-winning author of The Fault in Our Stars, as well as a new novel this fall, Hollywood, Ending. We'll get to that. An incredible YouTuber, Crash Course, as well as Vlogbrothers, with his brother Hank, and a prolific podcaster. Most recently, throughout the World Cup, co-hosted The Away End, a show about soccer, football, whatever you call it, and of course, life. Brené, meet John Green. [upbeat music]
- BBBrené Brown
What-
- JGJohn Green
Hi, Brené
- BBBrené Brown
... a pleasure. I am such a fan.
- JGJohn Green
Oh. Oh, I'm such a fan of yours, so it's really nice to meet you, and, um, I'm only a little bit intimidated.
- BBBrené Brown
Uh, that's good, 'cause I'm a lot intimidated, so that's perfect. Um, I could actually talk to you for a really... I have 1,000 questions and Adam was like, "Rein it in." Um, let me just start here, since we're gonna focus on, um... Well, we're g- we're gonna go all over the place,
- 1:16 – 6:14
John Green’s Love of Football & the World Cup
- BBBrené Brown
but I wanna start with this question. How did you fall in love with football as an American? How did you fall in love? I mean, Liverpool makes total sense as a fellow Red, but how did you-
- JGJohn Green
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... follow, how'd you fall in love?
- JGJohn Green
Well, I played for my middle school soccer team. I have no ability to play football whatsoever. I've never had any talent, but I had a lot of hustle. The only game I ever started, at halftime the coach pulled me and he said to the rest of the team, "You know why I started Green? At least he tries."
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- JGJohn Green
And I realized that I was a motivational tool rather than a, uh, actual footballer.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
You're the glue guy. You were the glue guy.
- JGJohn Green
I was the glue guy. I was a locker room guy.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah.
- JGJohn Green
And, um, and on my middle school soccer team, there was this kid from England named James, and James would tell us about how there was a, a football culture in England where tens of thousands of people would watch the games together arm in arm and sing songs together, and he told us that the best soccer team in the whole world was Liverpool Football Club, and we believed him, and here we are.
- BBBrené Brown
Smart kid.
- JGJohn Green
Smart kid.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. This is, this is the, the missing piece, I guess, in my life, 'cause I played soccer for 10 years growing up, but I did not have a James.
- JGJohn Green
[laughs] Yeah, it's, it's key.
- AGAdam Grant
And so I didn't, I didn't realize it was a sport we could follow.
- JGJohn Green
[laughs] Yeah, I mean, back then, you know, I was just talking with a friend of mine from high school about how we used to get these VHS tapes of, like, old Champions League games, uh, from, you know, 10 years earlier in the 1990s, and we would watch them in our boarding school, uh, TV room. Uh, and that was the only way we could keep up with soccer. There was no, like, you know, obviously no TV deals back then.
- BBBrené Brown
You were on delay.
- JGJohn Green
No, we were very much on delay. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Tape delay. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
On, on serious tape delay. It's, this is when you needed the poly markets. This is when you needed to be like-
- JGJohn Green
Right. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... here's how I think this is gonna go in the first half. Um, okay, how many games did you attend during the World Cup?
- JGJohn Green
I only attended one. I saw the US play Australia, uh, with my son.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh.
- JGJohn Green
And that was very special for me, because when I was 16, my dad took me to the World Cup in 1994 and we got to see, uh, the Netherlands play Morocco. It was, it was one of the biggest thrills of my life. And then to take my son when he was 16 to see the US play was just really, really, it was just an extraordinary feeling. We won the game, but it was almost, uh, an afterthought to me-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- JGJohn Green
... because the main thing was walking to the stadium with tens of thousands of fans. Uh, s- football is so different in the United States than it was in 1994. The vibe is so different. The vibe around the US national team is so different, both men's and women's national teams. And i- it was just, it just felt amazing to be in that community. Because that's what football's ultimately about, or any sport, right? Is it's about community. It, it's not about what happens on the field. It's not about getting a ball over a line. It's about the relationships that you build through care, uh, you know, orienting your love in the same direction as lots of other people.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, I love that phrase, "Orienting your love in the same direction as lots of other people." I think this speaks to something that you said, John, that of all the unimportant things, football is the most important. Why?
- 6:14 – 12:27
Building an “Us” Without a “Them”
- JGJohn Green
I do wonder, and this is something I think about with football a lot and also the rest of my life, is it possible to create a really inclusive us without creating a them?
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- JGJohn Green
Without the alien invaders?
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- JGJohn Green
Is it possible to build, you know, a, a community that doesn't require, uh, uh, to def- does it... Is it possible to build a community that doesn't need to define itself in opposition to another community? And often in soccer it's not, right? Like Liverpool fans hate Manchester United, Manchester United fans hate Liverpool, and like, and that's part of how we define ourselves as a community. But I'm also really interested in us's that don't require a them.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, my heart says yes. History would say no, but my heart-
- JGJohn Green
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... my heart, my heart definitely says yes. I just wonder, Adam, it's interesting. I, I w- I'd love to throw this to you for an answer. I wonder if... This is gonna be so random, but I, because you're John Green, I can do this. Um, and you, I, I think you can ping with me. It reminds me of the chimpanzee wars that we've been talking about, Adam, that like is there something [laughs] neurobiologically hardwired in us that we define us by them? Like, is this just so deeply ingrained in what it means to be a social species? I don't know.
- AGAdam Grant
I, gosh, I, I really hope the answer is no, but I, I think your instinct is right, that the answer points toward yes. Um, I think, I mean, Darwin wrote about this. He wrote that like tribes of altruistic people would actually outlast tribes of selfish people because they would be willing to sacrifice themselves for the group, and then the group would survive. But that was a tribe, [laughs] right? That was a group of people who shared your interests and who were defending themselves against an out group. And I, I don't know about, [laughs] I don't know where this goes with chimps, but I've been, I've been reading some re- research on infants which shows that before they can even talk, um, they will discriminate against out group puppets that don't like the same food as they do. And so they're, they're already starting to perceive group boundaries of like if you, if you like Goldfish crackers, we're on the Goldfish team, and we do not like the broccoli eaters. And so that, that seems to be very visceral and very early learned. I don't think that means we can't overcome it, though, and, and John, I would love to hear you talk about how do we build a, a we or us that doesn't require a them?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, me too.
- JGJohn Green
Well, I do think it's possible, and I, I, but I think we, we do have to go ag- we, we do have to go in knowing that we're inclined toward creating out groups, right? Like, we, we have to go into anything knowing that. I remember when we first started making YouTube videos back in 2007, we defined ourselves initially in opposition to popular people, like we were nerds-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- JGJohn Green
... and the, the popular people were the other people. And, um, then some people were like, "Actually, I have a lot of friends in school and I wanna be one of you. Is that possible?" And I was like, "Oh, right. We're like totally excluding-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JGJohn Green
... people who are socially well-adjusted. That's not fair of us at all. Like, they're, they're, they're people too."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JGJohn Green
Um, I have observed that it is possible. Uh, it is possible to create communities that are, um, productive and, and, and do good work together that don't define themselves in opposition to other communities, but I do think that it's an inclination we have and that we need to be conscious of.
- BBBrené Brown
You know what I, you know what I would put forward into this really im- like I could talk about this for a really long time. Here's what I would put forward that makes me a little bit hopeful. I don't think it's our hardwiring to hate that drives this propensity. I think it's our yearning to belong. And so-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- BBBrené Brown
... and those are two different things, right? It's, it's not, I don't think that we're looking for an out group on which to project our misery, our despair, our anger, our rage. I think it is belonging means so much to us that we try to secure it by the creation of those who don't belong. Because really, in my work, I think what I've found is love and belonging are irreducible needs of all people, and c- I would add connection, and in absence of those things, there's always suffering. So I think we-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- BBBrené Brown
... actually protect against our own suffering by creating-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- BBBrené Brown
... out groups, but it's not, it's to enhance our own sense of belonging, not because we love the sense of pushing others out. Does that make sense at all?
- JGJohn Green
Yeah, it really does.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes, and I have to build on it. It reminds me of Marilyn Brewer's research on how most prejudice is not driven by out group hate, but rather by in group love. We end up favoring our own kind, and then kinda leaving out or excluding people who don't belong. And John, it sounds like that's a version of, of what you ended up doing when your, [laughs] when your nerds left the, maybe the socially skilled and, I don't know, it sounds like you might have left jocks behind too.
- JGJohn Green
Yeah, which was really unfortunate. I think we, we still under-represent on the, on the jock front.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JGJohn Green
Um, there are some, there are some pretty hard-
- AGAdam Grant
That's why you did a football podcast.
- 12:27 – 15:41
Is John Green the Same Person He Was at the Start?
- BBBrené Brown
curious, is the John that started this intense podcasting during the World Cup this year, is the John that started it the same John that wrapped it at the end? Is there anything in you that shifted or changed?
- JGJohn Green
I think a lot shifted in me. I mean, I've always kinda dated my life by the World Cup, right? Like, starting in 1994 when I went with my dad, I think about where I was in '98, where I was in 2002, like, how I was doing in my life. And this World Cup will be the one that I enjoyed with my friends from high school for the first time since 1994. Because the person I hosted the Away End with, Daniel Alarcon, is a Peruvian novelist, but also my friend from high school.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- JGJohn Green
And, uh, we, it was produced by our friend Sean, who, uh, was a groomsman in my wedding and I've known since I was 14 years old. And that depth of connection, one of the great joys of adulthood, and I, I remember being, like, y- young, like, being in my early 20s and thinking, "This, this adulthood business is just terrible, and it's gonna be a nightmare the whole time."
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- JGJohn Green
But one of the great joys of being an adult is you can't possibly know when you're 20 what it's like to have a friend for 35 years.
- BBBrené Brown
No.
- JGJohn Green
And it's so wonderful. It's so, so that's what I'll remember, is the, the, the, the depth of connection that you feel to someone you've known since you were 14.
- BBBrené Brown
I feel like I could almost start crying. I never, until this... And this is what your work does to me. This is what, what your fiction does to me, and this is what your nonfiction does to me. I have not thought in my whole life, I, I might cry, until this second, why I was doing a podcast with Roger Bennett on the Unminimum Blazers podcast on the World Cup. And he said, "I know you're a big SEC football s- fan. Which one is better?" And I said, "I just can't rank them. I just can't do it." And now I understand why, because I have a friend, Eleanor, who was my first best friend in life.
- JGJohn Green
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
We met when we were four, in kindergarten, Holy Name of Jesus, New Orleans. Um, and she's a big Ole Miss person, and I'm a big UT person. And I remember a moment earlier this spring when I was holding her first grandbaby, and we're still friends five decades later. And-
- JGJohn Green
Right
- BBBrené Brown
... I don't know that SEC football means anything to me beyond that.
- JGJohn Green
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Do, do you know what I mean?
- JGJohn Green
Exactly. Totally. That's exactly right. That, like, the, it's a, it's, it's, it's a vector through which you experience friendship. It's, uh, it, it, it's a, it's, it's, it's a means to connection, a means to love, a means to community. And those friendships are just, uh, adulthood in general is so underrated. Like-
- BBBrené Brown
Agreed
- JGJohn Green
... those friendships are just magic, you know? And you can't know the pleasure of having, like, I, I'm wearing shoes that have fit for 15 years. They fit so good, and you can't know that when you're 15 years old. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And you can't describe it. There's no poetry that is appropriate for describing it.
- JGJohn Green
No, no, e- exactly.
- 15:41 – 22:32
Why Shared Projects Strengthen Friendships
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I, I have a similar, I guess a, a question that's parallel to the one earlier about can we have an us without a them? I wanna know, can we have those kinds of friendships without the sports? Like, I've, I, 'cause I will say, I've had a similar experience to both of you. I've, I think I've reconnected on a deeper level with one of my childhood best friends by the resurgence of the Detroit Lions than almost anything else we've done together.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
And yeah, I hadn't fo- hadn't followed the Lions since I gave up on them after Barry Sanders retired, but I'm back, and I'm all in. And, like, it gives us an excuse to, to text and talk every week. But I'm always wondering, does it have to be sports? You know, we, we've, we talk about movies and shows and books too, but there's something that sports does. I think Brené, you, you described it as collective effervescence, and I think it's really hard to replicate that in other domains. But I think we need more ways to replicate that, and I would love to hear both of you talk about that.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm following John Green on this one, baby. Ain't no chance I'm going first.
- JGJohn Green
Okay. All right. Great. I'll go first then. I absolutely think it's possible. I think that a lot of friendships and relationships in general need shared projects.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- JGJohn Green
Like, my mom and I share a garden. My mom lives next door to me, and yet we don't see each other that often, except that we see each other all the time in the garden because we work on the garden together. My brother and I work together on online video and have for 20 years, and that's kept us close. I, I, I don't think it needs to be sports, but I think it needs to be a shared project. And I also think, like, sports is ultimately sort of a soap opera, and so it can also-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- JGJohn Green
... be Love Island, right? Like, it can also be American Idol. It can, it can be all kinds of things. But sports is really good at it, for whatever reason, but I don't think it's, it's unique. I, I, I, I think the important thing is finding some kind of shared project together.
- AGAdam Grant
One thing that's unique about sports is that you don't have to like collaborating with the other person to treat it [laughs] as a shared project, right? You s-
- JGJohn Green
That's true. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
You start your garden and, and all of a sudden [laughs] you, you realize, "I like this person, but I do not like working with them." And the, the same happens when you take on all kinds of creative projects, right? Sports, you can each watch in your own way and then come together without stepping on each other's toes.
- BBBrené Brown
You know what I think-
- JGJohn Green
It's true
- BBBrené Brown
... is really interesting is I have a 20-year-old son, and the, the, the sheer joy, there's, and I don't use, I use that word, it's not happiness, it's joy, as we hit August, um- And they start talking about their fantasy leagues, and they start coming up with their punishment, you know, 24-hour Waffle House, a pancake every five minutes. Like, what, you know, or, you know, the, it's-
- JGJohn Green
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
It, I think it is, I, I, I love what you said, John, about, um... But that's a project. They, they, that's a project. Like, they're going to collectively abandon the person who wins, who auto-drafted. Um, you know, it's-
- JGJohn Green
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
But it's... And I don't think it has to be sports, but I do think it has to be something, I'm gonna go really far out here into kind of management work, but I do think there has to be something that gives you the opportunity to kind of go through the form, storm, norm. There, there's gotta be something that has challenge and growth, and this is where the collaboration stuff gets hard, I agree, because, like, that, that gets hard. But I do think about... And I think it can be, I don't think it has to be explicit. So for an example, with Eleanor, who's my longest lifetime friend, again, 50 years, our project is the pain and agony and absolute sheer enjoyment of adult children.
- JGJohn Green
Mm. Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
And how we work through that together. And how, you know, do you intervene when you can play how the story's going to end, or do you sit back and just let it go? P.S. The answer is, yeah, I gotta sit back and let it go. It sucks, for sure. Um, but that's our project.
- JGJohn Green
I don't look forward to that at all.
- BBBrené Brown
Say again?
- JGJohn Green
I don't look forward to that at all. That sounds really hard.
- BBBrené Brown
Watching kids adulting in this culture today is, you have to be mindful actually sometimes of despair, which is my, it's a really hard emotion for me. 'Cause when I get into it, I have a hard time pulling out. Um, but I think watching adult kids today grapple with the world is a project that I'm g- I'm grateful that I have a lifelong friend.
- JGJohn Green
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
Does that make sense?
- JGJohn Green
Oh, yeah. Absolutely, because it's hard not to feel despair at 48 when you look at the amount of suffering and injustice in the world. And if I were half my age, I, it would be almost impossible. And so there's that, but there's also the challenges of being a young adult. I remember I had this great Polish doctor in Chicago, and one time she left the room when I was, like, 24, and she left my chart open. And of course, I looked at my chart, and the first thing I saw was, "Patient is a low-functioning young adult." And I was a low-functioning young adult. Um, and I was, I, I wasn't offended or anything. I was like, "Yeah, she, she, she knows." [laughs] And it's really, really hard.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- JGJohn Green
It's really hard to function as a young adult, you know? It's, it... 'Cause you don't have those secure relationships.
- 22:32 – 23:51
Why John Green Loves Writing About Young People
- JGJohn Green
Yeah. I mean, that's why I love writing about young people, is because there's an intensity to doing all that stuff for the first time-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- JGJohn Green
... that is absolutely, and when it's absolutely unprecedented, that you just can't have perspective.
- BBBrené Brown
No.
- JGJohn Green
You can't have any distance from the story. You can't have any sense that you're looking back because you're not, you know, there's nothing to look back on yet. And so I really love the, the ways in which when we do something for the first time, it doesn't just feel unprecedented in our lives, it feels unprecedented in, like, all of human history.
- BBBrené Brown
God.
- JGJohn Green
Like, the second time you fall in love, you're like, "This is great. This is amazing. It's a little bit like the first time." [laughs] But the first time you fall in love, you're like, "Wow." [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
You know what? And it's, you know, that I think this is something about your books that very few people, if any, can grab onto. Like, you, you, you, like, you reach through people's bodies and grab their hearts and give them a good squeeze in a way that I'm like, "Fuck you, John Green." Um, just to be honest.
- JGJohn Green
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, but, um, but let me tell you what I think is wild,
- 23:51 – 25:53
Watching Your Child Experience Heartbreak
- BBBrené Brown
is don't, I'm just, I, I swear I wasn't gonna cry. The first time you watch your kid get their heart broken.
- JGJohn Green
Mm. Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
You know, that's, that's not something- That's inside of your personal history because you've had your heart broken, but watching your kid get their heart broken, you know, that's, you know what it feels like to not make the team. To watch your kid not make the team and walk in the back door and collapse on the floor, like-
- JGJohn Green
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
And I just was wondering at what age would I get to the seconds of everything for a little salvation, but it hasn't happened yet. [laughs] So do you know what I mean?
- JGJohn Green
Totally.
- AGAdam Grant
It is, it is the worst kind of empathic distress because you, you know what the heartbreak feels like. You remember what it was like the first time you went through it, and you're watching your kid, who you're supposed to protect, go through this, and you feel totally helpless to do anything about it. It's awful.
- JGJohn Green
And you've been told as a parent that your whole job, and you feel as a parent that your whole job is to try to save them from suffering, to try to save them from discomfort, and, um, and there's just nothing you can do, you know? And, and, and, and the, the, the desire to say, like, "Well, one day you'll remember this as, you know-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- JGJohn Green
... a pretty minor setback in the road," um, is there, but that's, of course, the absolute wrong thing to do because that, you know, minimizes what is, for them, the most profound pain imaginable. Yeah, it's, it's... Parenting, man, is so much harder than, um, than I ever thought it would be, but also, like, way more interesting than I ever thought it would be.
- 25:53 – 29:27
Sitting With Someone in Their Pain
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's interesting. You know who really helped me with that? And I don't know that I've done it, I, I don't know that I've executed against the Buddhist wisdom very well, but it's been helpful, is Pema Chödrön talked about compassion, um, being the, having the ability to sit in the darkness with others. And so one of the things I always worked with, with my, uh, with my therapist when, you know, even now with my kids, is don't rush to flip on the light. Sit with them in the darkness. But that goes against every parental instinct that I have.
- JGJohn Green
Right.
- BBBrené Brown
You know, just to sit with them-
- JGJohn Green
Yeah, I remember-
- BBBrené Brown
... in the dark.
- JGJohn Green
Yeah, I remember before I was a writer, my first life, I was a ch- chaplain at a children's hospital and thought I was gonna become an Episcopal minister, and, um, my chaplaincy supervisor said, "Don't just do something. Stand there."
- AGAdam Grant
That's profound. Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, what, what a great metaphor for what it means to be supportive of somebody else.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. It reminds me of, Aiko Bethia was, we had her on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, or we had a recording of a coaching session she did with me at a conference, and she said, "Coaching is in the being, not the doing."
- JGJohn Green
Mm. Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. And I, and I didn't know we shared in common, I have to say, I didn't know we shared in common the, um, the Episcopal priest path, which I have thought about my entire life.
- AGAdam Grant
It's not too late, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] I have, I have-
- AGAdam Grant
It's like a career baby
- JGJohn Green
I deliberately didn't mention that.
- BBBrené Brown
I have-
- JGJohn Green
I, I was avoiding the topic 'cause I didn't want you two to nerd out-
- BBBrené Brown
No, no
- JGJohn Green
... on Episcopalian-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- JGJohn Green
... plans.
- BBBrené Brown
I think that I have, uh, I have maybe perhaps burnt that bridge. But, um, but I still run a-
- JGJohn Green
Same
- BBBrené Brown
... I still run a, a back burner film of it every now and then.
- JGJohn Green
Yeah, it's the big sliding doors moment of my life. But, um, after chaplaincy, I just couldn't see myself working from, from, I just couldn't do it. It's too hard.
- BBBrené Brown
I, um, I never got to the sliding door moment, but I can't imagine that the, being on the platform where that sliding door opened and closed, being in a children's hospital, like-
- JGJohn Green
Yeah. Uh-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm
- JGJohn Green
... it was really hard. I mean, I was only 22, so I didn't know what I didn't know. Um, but, uh, it was really hard and, uh, you know, I was conscious of the fact that it wasn't nearly as hard for me as it was for the people I was trying to accompany, but it was still pretty, pretty hard.
- 29:27 – 33:59
Mental Health in Professional Sports
- JGJohn Green
you know, this, this whole, this whole discussion of young adults and the difficulty of, like, of being under stress and pressure in the, the world we live in, this actually brings me back to the World Cup because the whole world is watching not just players in their 20s and 30s but some teenagers too who are on stage. And I know Brené and I were both blown away by the open discussions we saw of mental health throughout the World Cup, um, how, how freely players talked about going to therapy and seeking help, and we would be remiss if we did not talk about this. Yeah, it's a huge shift, uh, very different from when I was a kid. I mean, I, I was diagnosed fairly early with, um, depression- Uh, when I was a teenager and went to therapy and started taking medication and stuff, and that was very radical for the 1990s. It was essential for my survival, and I'm very, very grateful that I got diagnosed, uh, when I did, but it was also really rare. And now it's great to see especially these young people who so many young people look up to talking about it openly and saying, "I go to therapy," and, and, and talking about why and talking about the benefits that they, that they experience. I will say that it, it sort of shines a light for me on the fact that access to mental health care is still really, um, really dependent upon privilege. You know, these are, these are people who have the money to go, to go to therapy, which a lot of us, a lot of folks don't. But, um, they... I, I really commend them for talking about it so openly. Who can imagine the pressure of taking a penalty kick in the World Cup? I couldn't even get the ball over the line without a goalkeeper in the goal. And so I think the, the, you know, the courage that takes is, uh, is something we do really need to, to credit and celebrate.
- BBBrené Brown
In prepping for this, I, I tried to pull as many of the references that, that I could of players who spoke openly, from Jude Bellingham to Torres on the Spain team, people really saying, "I see a therapist. I almost, I almost quit the game until I saw a therapist." Um, I was really... There's just no one I wanted to talk about this more than with you, John, for a lot of reasons. Um, and I'm, I'm gonna try to do probably a terrible job of bringing this back to d- to tuberculosis everywhere.
- JGJohn Green
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
But I thought there was a very, a really big thread there, and th- this is, this is kind of the thread. So we have these players that have 30, 40, 50 million followers talking openly about help-seeking, openly about mental health issues. So then my question became, does that help? And I go into the research and find that it helps with awareness, but not really. It doesn't help change behaviors because what actually changes behaviors is a frictionless path to help.
- JGJohn Green
Hmm. Access.
- BBBrené Brown
Access.
- JGJohn Green
Hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
And this is where I g- this is where I get into tuberculosis everywhere is because I'm, I know I'm gonna... Give me the line so I don't m- so I don't murder it about the cure exists where the illness isn't.
- JGJohn Green
Yeah, the cure, the, the, the cure is, the cure is where the disease is not, and the disease is where the cure is not.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. And about how much of this is about not that we don't know how to help, but the political will to help-
- JGJohn Green
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... access, privilege. I mean, I just saw a through line from your book there. Do you see it at all when we've got players... Here's what we know. Like, we know that even in really well-funded campaigns around mental health that involve celebrities and athletes, a year after those campaigns stop, there's almost negligible difference because when people do pick up the phone-
- JGJohn Green
Hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... there's not a fric- a frictionless path. There's no access. Do you see-
- JGJohn Green
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... do you see what I'm trying to draw the connection?
- 33:59 – 37:15
John Green on His Own Mental Health Crisis
- JGJohn Green
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I, I, I, a couple years ago, I had a mental health crisis, and I called the doctor, the psychiatrist, and the office was like, "What do you wanna do?" And I was like, "I don't, I don't know. Like, I'm in the middle of a mental health crisis. I don't know what I wanna do. Like, tell me what I'm supposed to do. Like, tell me what to do. Tell me how, who do I see and when. Like, help me." And if I can't navigate that system with all the, you know, good fortune that I have, how can we ask other people to navigate it? With tuberculosis, we have the cure. We've had the cure since the 1950s. We know how to cure the disease, and we basically choose not to cure it by, by preventing people from accessing the cure, making it too expensive, making it so that, um, people have to pay for travel to come get their medicine every single day rather than once a month, uh, things like that. And those, those structures that, that we have built, they're human-built structures, uh, make it so that there isn't that frictionless access, and that's what... That's, I think that's so true. Like, that's what we need to cure both, uh, the mental health crisis and the tuberculosis crisis.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I think that's, uh, such a, it's such a compelling connection, and it makes me think, John, there's a sequel waiting to be written to Everything Is Tuberculosis, which is Everything Is Access. Everything Is Opportunity.
- JGJohn Green
Yeah. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Wow.
- JGJohn Green
Everything is opportunity. That's so true. I mean, everything is, is... I, I, you know, I, uh, to the point of being a, having been a low-functioning young adult, I was given all kinds of help when I was a low-functioning young adult so that I could become sort of a medium-functioning middle-aged guy, right? And if I hadn't had all that help... Like, I remember one time my boss came to me, and I was working at a magazine, and my boss came to me and she said, "The, uh, the HR people say you're cashing your checks at the grocery store." And I was like, "Yeah. How else are you gonna do it?" And she was like, "Well, you need a bank account, John." And I was like, "Yeah, but I don't have an ID, so I don't have a bank account." And she was like, "All right. Well, I guess we're gonna go get you an ID during our lunch break." And she took me, and we got an ID, and then she took me to the bank the next day, and we got a bank account. And, like, I say we did that because there was no way I could do it by myself. I was too... I couldn't do that. I just wasn't, I wasn't up for it. I didn't know how to navigate that system. I didn't, you know, I just didn't know. And If it hadn't been for that person, I would've kept cashing my checks at the grocery store and paying, you know, whatever, 10, 15% off the top.
- BBBrené Brown
Totally.
- JGJohn Green
And, and I just, I, I think so much is about frictionless access. So much of life, not just healthcare. So much of navigating the systems that we have built, uh, around everything.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, no, we put a... And, and I, I love the fact that you're pointing out it's systemic because you had someone that walked you to get the ID that then is required to go to the bank, and then is required to do this, and then is required to set up the direct deposit, and then, you know, like... And you just keep using the word systems. Um, we, we have to take responsibility for the fact that we've built that which makes it impossible.
- 37:15 – 41:02
The Role Coaches Play in Athletes’ Mental Health
- JGJohn Green
Exactly.
- BBBrené Brown
You know? And so for... And the other thing that I would be really re- I think I would be remiss, I would feel ethically remiss to not call out from this research, was really shocking to me in a, you know, in addition to frictionless access, is in sports specifically, starting young. Coaches-
- JGJohn Green
Mm
- BBBrené Brown
... are the answer and the biggest obstacle to mental health help. So when you have a coach that constantly talks about it as important, normalizes it, there is help-seeking. The majority of players, and this is from studies done in s- across different sports and the Olympics, it is the number one people that athletes want to keep the information away from, is their coach, and it's the number one person that makes it accessible and reduces friction if they're willing to do it. And so if you're out there-
- JGJohn Green
Mm
- BBBrené Brown
... and you're a coach and you're listening, which I know we do have a lot of, uh, sports coaches that listen, 'cause Adam and I do a lot of work in that area, it's a big responsibility and a big opportunity. You know? You are the, you are the biggest barrier, and you are the greatest hope. You know? I think it's really important to name that.
- JGJohn Green
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, John, this, this makes me wonder about your middle school soccer or football coach.
- JGJohn Green
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Um, you, you, you, you said-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... you realized you were just a mo- [laughs] Like, you said you, you, you realized you were a motivational tool earlier, but-
- JGJohn Green
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... I also wonder if you were something bigger than just that. If you were also an opportunity for the team to talk about how talent is not the only thing that matters, or what we're all gonna do to support each other. [laughs] I, I don't know how-
- JGJohn Green
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... much you remember about that coach, but I'm just wondering if, if there are dots to connect to what Brené was saying and, and that formative experience of yours.
- JGJohn Green
He was certainly not a coach who would tell you to seek [laughs] mental, mental health. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- JGJohn Green
Um, but-
- BBBrené Brown
Nicely done, John
- JGJohn Green
... he was a good coach. He was a good coach. He was a good coach in a lot of ways. But, um, I think that, I think part, uh, the, the sort of positive spin on what he was saying is there's this great, uh, basketball player, TJ McConnell, for the Indianapolis Pacers, and he's known as a guy who doesn't have, he doesn't have the size, he doesn't have the speed, he doesn't have this, but he plays really hard. And what he says is, "Playing hard is a skill. If it wasn't, everyone would do it." And-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm
- JGJohn Green
... I did play really, really hard. Like, I jumped for every ball. I, I, I, I played hard. I st- I, I still play hard. And I, I think maybe it, the positive spin is he was saying, "Look, playing hard is a skill and, and this guy has it and, and, um, the rest of you should try to learn it."
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, we've all seen teams that have a ton of talent, no glue, no effort. I would never, as a sports really maniac, I would never trust a team full of talent and no glue and no hard ethic skill.
- JGJohn Green
Yeah, that's why they need me in the locker room, Brené.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- JGJohn Green
The glue guy.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I'm a fan.
- 41:02 – 50:09
Rapid Fire With John Green
- BBBrené Brown
All right, should we rapid fire, John?
- JGJohn Green
Great.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I think it's lightning round time.
- BBBrené Brown
You wanna start?
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, no, you start.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. John, what's one thing you're deeply curious about right now?
- JGJohn Green
Cholera. I'm really interested in cholera, this, uh, disease that, uh, continues to kill over 100,000 people a year even though, uh, it, it's been eliminated from most rich countries.
- BBBrené Brown
Wow. Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. You know you're an Oregon Trail generation member when...
- JGJohn Green
[laughs] That's right. That's right. But it's not just an Oregon Trail problem, Adam. It's a present tense problem. So I'm very interested in cholera and water supply in general. Like, it's another system where we're seeing the failures, um, really laid bare.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... globally, really-
- JGJohn Green
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... scary.
- JGJohn Green
Water. Water is-
- BBBrené Brown
Water
- JGJohn Green
... such a big deal.
- BBBrené Brown
Water and p- public-
- JGJohn Green
Uh-
- BBBrené Brown
... health and water, the intersection of those two things.
- JGJohn Green
Exactly, yeah, and that's not just a problem. You don't have to go, um, to a poor country to see challenges with underfunded public healthcare systems.
- BBBrené Brown
No.
- JGJohn Green
And I'll leave that there.
- BBBrené Brown
And it, and it's getting worse with this administration. I mean, like, my husband's a pediatrician, and when we were talking about the recent outbreak of, tell me what it is
- JGJohn Green
Measles?
- BBBrené Brown
No, the lettu- oh, well, d- you-
- JGJohn Green
Oh, crypto-
- AGAdam Grant
The lettuce one, yeah
- JGJohn Green
... crop. What is it, Adam?
- 50:09 – 54:01
Brené Brown & Adam Grant Reflect
- AGAdam Grant
How much do you love John Green?
- BBBrené Brown
On a scale from one to 10, 11.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Same.
- BBBrené Brown
Off the scale. I mean, we could-
- AGAdam Grant
It's-
- BBBrené Brown
... have gone down the Episcopal-
- AGAdam Grant
It's not fair that he's real
- BBBrené Brown
... no, we could have gone down the Episcopal priest route. Um, like, it's really good you reigned us in.
- AGAdam Grant
I really tried to hide that. I was, ugh, I was like, "Oh, no. Oh, no."
- BBBrené Brown
It all made sense to me, though
- AGAdam Grant
... they could, they could go there.
- BBBrené Brown
Every time I, e- every time I read, you know, when I was prepping for this, everything I read was like, "Oh, this makes sense. Oh, this makes sense. Oh, this makes sense." Um, yeah. It was just really good.
- AGAdam Grant
All, all of it makes sense. There's one thing I have to, I have to quibble with, though, which is he called himself [laughs] a medium-functioning adult. If John Green is medium-functioning, the rest of us are in a lot of trouble.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God, I hated every second. When he said that, I was like, "I can't rank against that dude." Like, that is like, if, if that's where you are, I'm, I'm in trouble.
- AGAdam Grant
I feel like he has all these identities that could each be a full-time job, and he's, like, the [laughs] the kindest, most thoughtful, most creative person on Earth doing that thing, and then he's doing several other of them, too. Uh, I'm like, how do you do it all?
- BBBrené Brown
What I think is interesting about his work is his ability to, it's that great definition of creativity that I love, the ability to connect the seemingly unconnectable. Do you know what I mean?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Um-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes
- BBBrené Brown
... and it's, it's, yeah, I just think we were lucky to get to talk to him about so many different things, and I'm, you know, as a, I don't know what this means, and I get criticized for saying this a lot, but as a reluctant public person, the Hollywood Ending book, I think, is gonna be tough. And people are like, "There's no such thing as a reluctant public person." But I would, I would say you're kind of one, too, right?
- AGAdam Grant
Very much so. Yeah, I think we both are in different ways.
- BBBrené Brown
Like, maybe by reluctant, I think, um, I don't get a lot out of that part of my work, but I do, I'm invested in my work having impact. And then that means sometimes I have to be the vessel for my work, but I'm not cut out for it 'cause I'm a little, I'm a little bit tender-hearted and private, and I just don't know how to do it very well sometimes. Um, but I'm, I'm excited for Hollywood Ending. I think it's gonna be a tough read for those of us in that position or for, or for any of us. I saw something this weekend that for some reason tied me straight to John's new book from Kate Bowler that said, "Thinking about those of y'all who are spending your time being grateful for the moments you're in, not trying to capture them for an audience who will be grateful for them." You know?
- AGAdam Grant
Ugh.
- BBBrené Brown
And I was just like-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes
- BBBrené Brown
... wow. Like, when he said all of us are public people to some degree right now, it made me think of that quote from Kate Bowler, just that, yeah, just being in the moments and not capturing them for an audience, but being in them is powerful.
- AGAdam Grant
Spot on. I, I read, I read a paper a few years ago that, that actually tried to document this empirically, where p- I think if I remember correctly, people were randomly assigned to be in an experience and either, you know, take a photo or a selfie or not, and the people who captured it actually enjoyed the experience less. They, they literally took themselves out of it in order to preserve the memory for the future and missed out on the present. And I, I remember reading that research and thinking, "What is the point of capturing it for the future if there's no emotion felt during it?" Like, you're, you're capturing, it might as well be a picture of somebody else 'cause you weren't there.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, I'm like, I'm, I'm kind of breathless about that, and I, I know it's, I know intuitively it's true. It re- can I tell you a quick parenting story?
- 54:01 – 56:18
Brené Brown’s “Picture Memory” Story
- AGAdam Grant
Please. I always love parenting stories, especially from you.
- BBBrené Brown
Ellen and I were at Hermann Park, which is kind of in D- in the medical center in Houston, and I picked her, I used to pick the kids up from school all the time and take them either to the train that went around the zoo at Hermann Park, or sometimes we would feed the ducks. And, you know, what are those things called that you ride where you, the bicycle and use the little boat?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, the pedal boats.
- BBBrené Brown
Pedal, pedal boat. Yes. Pedal boat, yeah. And we were in the pedal boat, and it was just a random day after school, and I looked over to, at her, and her face was really scrunched up. And I said, "Ellen, are you okay?" And she didn't answer. And I, and, you know, immediately I was like, "Ellen." "Ellen, are you okay?" And she kinda just went like this, and I stopped. You know, I wasn't pedaling. We were just floating, and I said, "What's going on?" And she said, "I'm good. I'm just making a picture memory." And I said, "What?" And she said, "I'm just making-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, wow
- BBBrené Brown
... a picture memory of right now, so when things are harder later, I can remember this." And-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... it was so striking to me that sometimes if I'm in a moment and I wanna get out my phone, I'll just say, "Just make a picture. Close your eye and make a picture memory," you know? And so-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... when you talk about that research, I think there's a difference between bringing out a device and capturing it, because in- inherently in that you're either thinking about an audience that's gonna see that picture or, you know... But a, a picture memory sometimes is even more powerful to me. Does that make sense? I don't know how to describe it.
- AGAdam Grant
It d- it does. It does. It... Oh, I, I love that image so much. Like, I want, I wanna take a picture memory [laughs] of that right now. Just close your eyes and capture that. I think, yeah, I mean, you're not ... Your, your interaction isn't now happening through a device. It's actually happening in your head and your heart, which makes it much more meaningful.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, that's beautiful.
- AGAdam Grant
And, and the, the fact that it's not, like, physically or digitally preserved, I think that's part of what makes it poignant, that only you can conjure it.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, it's the conjuring. It's beautiful.
- 56:18 – 58:59
Biggest Takeaways
- BBBrené Brown
All right, before we head off, um, I think my takeaway is... Let me ask you first. W- w- what are you taking away from the conversation, and what are you gonna keep thinking about?
- AGAdam Grant
I think, I think my biggest takeaway is that I need to find more shared projects for some of the relationships-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm
- AGAdam Grant
... that, that I care about, that right now we're, we're kinda catching up on each other's lives as opposed to, you know, rooting for the same thing or being part of the same thing, and I, I wanna work on that. What am I, what am I thinking about? I, I really f- I, I think we need a whole body of research on the question of how do you build an us without a them. I, I think that is maybe the question of our time.
- BBBrené Brown
Phew. Um, that's my takeaway. My-
- AGAdam Grant
How about you?
- BBBrené Brown
No, that's my takeaway. My takeaway... I have two takeaways. One is, how do you build an us without a them, and how do you define an us without a them? And, 'cause I think the defining is part of the problem. And then my second one is, no matter what we do when we're trying to help people, we always need to think about frictionless a- f- fric- frictionless access, you know? Like it's-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes
- BBBrené Brown
... such a big part that we can bring into awareness, but if awareness is not followed by the ability to action something with minimum friction, awareness fades.
- AGAdam Grant
So important and, and paradoxically, like, it, it also brings to mind, you know, that, that line that John relayed about, "Don't just do something, stand there."
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Y- you and I are both... Like, we have such a bias toward action. We like to do things. We like to solve. We like to fix. And I'm gonna hear that echoing in my head every time my kids bring me a problem. "Don't just do something, stand there." And I think with your prompt, it's stand there in the dark.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Don't turn on the light yet.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. And that, that's still to this day, ooh, I have to fight a lot of, I have to fight a lot of fixer in me to do it, but it's really... I think it's teaching, teaching our kids especially how to be in pain, um, is a gift, but oof, it's, it's a tough one. John Green, thank you for introducing us, and thank you for bringing him on, The Curiosity Shop. What a gift.
- AGAdam Grant
Ugh, always. [upbeat music]
- BBBrené Brown
The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education & Research Group and Grant Ed Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.
- AGAdam Grant
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.
Episode duration: 58:59
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