The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantLeading Under Pressure with Rebecca Lowe | The Curiosity Shop
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
85 min read · 17,166 words- 0:00 – 2:56
Introducing Rebecca Lowe
- BBBrené Brown
Hey, Adam.
- AGAdam Grant
Hey, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
I gotta tell you, my sisters and I are losing our minds about our guest today.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I, I wasn't even sure if you were gonna show up. Were you gonna be-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... speechless?
- BBBrené Brown
No, I came. I am, I am prepared, and I am excited. Let's go. [upbeat music] [typewriter clacking] I'm gonna try not to lose my mind, y'all, because in the Curiosity Shop with us, sitting next to the cash register on the bar in the shop is Rebecca Lowe. Um, here's what my sisters and I have come up with as the bio. The most praised person on the most watched soccer broadcast in American history. The 2026 World Cup final grew, drew 38.9 million viewers on Fox with a peak of 51.7, the most watched soccer telecast in US history, and you fronted that sucker. Um, you have hosted NBC's Premier League coverage every season since 2013, seven consecutive Olympics as NBC's daytime host. You have a Sports Emmy, which we can see, because she's a badass-
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... um, from her Paris 2024 coverage. She's a drama graduate who is going to be an actress.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, she played... Do... Is this true? You played one season of high school soccer or football?
- RLRebecca Lowe
I mean, I mean, it's not, it's half a season and pretty terribly, but yeah, carry on. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And my sisters and I were obsessed with the way she covered the World Cup. Um, so we have Rebecca Lowe with us on the Curiosity Shop, and I'm losing my mind, Adam. [sighs]
- AGAdam Grant
Rightfully so. I mean, Rebecca, I, before I knew you as face and voice of the Olympics, but now you've been, become the face and voice of the World Cup. But even before that, I loved you when you did the bit with Ted Lasso.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RLRebecca Lowe
Oh, yeah, Ted Lasso. That's a whole nother situation. Guys, thank you so much. That was... I'm clipping that int- i- introduction off and listening to that when I'm having a bad day, 'cause that was the most beautiful thing. Thank you so much. Um, what... Can I just say what an honor it is to be on this with you guys, truly. Um, we said just before we started recording that when the request came in, that went just right to the top of every request I've had this week, so far above every other [laughs] request as well, so thank you for having me.
- BBBrené Brown
Well, it's-
- AGAdam Grant
I wanna know who we beat.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, oh, of course you do.
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Don't tell us.
- BBBrené Brown
Email us, email us later-
- AGAdam Grant
Not to get competitive
- BBBrené Brown
... later. Yeah. [laughs]
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. I wanna start-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... back with did
- 2:56 – 10:04
How She Fell in Love with Football
- BBBrené Brown
you fall in love with football as, going to Crystal Palace game? Where did this start?
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah. That, that's it, Brené, that's it. Um, we can date it back to September-ish of 1989. And, uh, my dad, um, I guess he had two tickets and somebody couldn't go to a game. And you don't take nine-year-old girls-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- RLRebecca Lowe
... in the '80s-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- RLRebecca Lowe
... to, [laughs] to football in England. Like, that isn't, that was not a thing. But there was no one else to go. G- actually, he can't remember this, me going, so therefore he can't remember why he thought asking me was a good idea. My brother was obviously busy. All of my [laughs] dad's friends were clearly busy. And he must have just looked at me and gone, "Yep, that's fine. You'll do. Come on, let's go." Um, my parents got divorced around that time, and I, and I just wonder whether maybe he thought, you know, this could be a little bonding thing, like a one-off. Like, I don't for one second think my dad thought this would be something that we would then spend the next four decades doing together. Um, but I went to that game, and I remember it a little bit. I don't remember it too much. And then six months later it was the World Cup of 1990-
- BBBrené Brown
Oof
- RLRebecca Lowe
... which was in Italy.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- RLRebecca Lowe
And England had a really good team, and we got to the semifinals, and there was a lot of drama around the team, and things happened, and it caught the imagination more than ever of the country. And because I'd just been introduced to football through my dad taking me to that game, and then that, Crystal Palace had had quite a good few months, I just, that was it. I fell in love with Pavarotti singing Nessun Dorma, which was the soundtrack to that World Cup in 1990-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God, goosebumps
- RLRebecca Lowe
... which still gives me chills.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- RLRebecca Lowe
I know. I know. It still does. Sometimes I just put that thing on in the car-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm
- RLRebecca Lowe
... and I whack it up, and I just go back to being nine years old. Um, and that, and that was it. It got into my system, and it became very normal for me to love football, which, again, for a 9, 10-year-old in the '80s, early '90s, that wasn't normal. But for me, it's always felt normal.
- BBBrené Brown
What did... I know you don't remember the game very well, but what did, going into that World Cup, what are the emotion words, this is gonna be Adam's favorite part, FYI, what are the emotion words-
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... that come up for you when you think about football?
- RLRebecca Lowe
Oh. Yeah. I mean, it's, it, God, it gives me chills just even thinking about that. What a great question. Belonging, I think is one. That's probably not an emotion, is it?
- BBBrené Brown
No, yes.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Um.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes, yes, yes. It's a, it's a human experience-
- RLRebecca Lowe
It is. Okay
- BBBrené Brown
... and elicits huge-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Okay. Okay, good
- BBBrené Brown
... emotion. Yes.
- RLRebecca Lowe
So yeah, belonging, community, um, a pure joy that you don't find a- or I hadn't yet found anywhere else, a release, I think, a real release, which happens when you score a goal. Um-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- RLRebecca Lowe
... and a bonding. I mean, I, I think those are the, those, when I look at it now and I think about it now, being a part of a fan experience, following a team like Crystal Palace or following a, a country like England- It, it felt very much like being a part of something, and I think that is what I love so much. That mutual experience of all wanting the same thing and all hoping to get it, and very rarely getting it. But when you do get it, when the goal goes in or the game is won, oh, my goodness, it, it, a mu- again, a mutual feeling of joy, which you just don't get anywhere else, guys.
- 10:04 – 13:17
The Accidental Start in Broadcasting
- RLRebecca Lowe
out.
- BBBrené Brown
I just wanna know how you stumbled into the broadcasting opportunity.
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
That, that's exactly where I was going.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Well, it is a weird story. Um, so in the final year of college, I sort of partnered up with a girl called Lucy, and she was way more talented than, than me, but we were a bit of a double act. And in the UK, I would describe us as maybe like a French and Saunders, which is a, a very-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah
- RLRebecca Lowe
... a, a very famous... Yeah, okay. So Dawn French and Jennifer Saunders. I mean, let me just say we were nowhere near Dawn French and Jennifer Saunders-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RLRebecca Lowe
... but that's what we sort of wanted to be, a kind of a, a double act. Not stand-up comedians, but that would just kind of act together in different-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah
- RLRebecca Lowe
... you know, skit shows and things like that.
- AGAdam Grant
Amy and Tina.
- RLRebecca Lowe
And she was brilliant, but she was a year... Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it is. But she's a year younger than me, so, uh, the plan was that I would graduate. She would follow me a year later. And while I was one year out of college and she was finishing, I would find us an agent. It would all be fine, and by the time she graduated, we would launch ourselves-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh
- RLRebecca Lowe
... onto the scene and become super fa- You know? Yeah, that's how you think-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, of course
- RLRebecca Lowe
... when you're 21. Well, the irony is that Lucy went to a... Back in the day in 2002, they had record stores, okay? So she went to a record store to buy a CD. [laughs] And the people listening are like, "What?" And she went up to the counter to buy a CD on this day towards the end of my final year, and she saw a flyer at the, at the front desk. And the BBC was searching for a number of different talents. It was called BBC Talent search for various things, whether it was a on-air meteorologist or a DJ for their BBC Radio. And it was ev- a producer, loads of things. One of the things was a soccer reporter.
- BBBrené Brown
I love that.
- RLRebecca Lowe
And we were sitting on the grass at college, and I was almost graduated, and the plan was still for us to launch ourselves, and she showed me it. And she said, "Look, there's a audition for a sitcom that I think we should go for," which we did and failed. Um, "But there's also a soccer reporter. Why don't you go for that?" And I said, "Because I'm a woman, and, like, I don't think I'm gonna..." Uh, still in 2002, by the way, I, there was no-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- RLRebecca Lowe
... I didn't know very many girls who liked football.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- RLRebecca Lowe
And she said, "Yeah, but that might be, to be honest, that might be a good thing." 'Cause we were just starting to enter a whole new world of, like, who knows? Maybe we can turn the tables a little bit. So I said, "Okay." So I applied for it. Long story short, I graduated, forgot all about it. A few months later I got a letter, and I got to the next round, and I kept getting to the next round, and the next round, and six months after I graduated I won it, and it was a six-month contract as a reporter with the BBC on a couple of their flagship soccer shows. And I took the job. It was a six-month contract. I took the job thinking, "Well, that's fine. I'll just do it. It's really good money for six months. Great, so I'll do that, save the money, and then when Lucy graduates we'll-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah
- RLRebecca Lowe
... do what we were always planning." But it was really good. [laughs] And unfortunately, I had to say, "Lucy, you remem- you remember that thing you told me I should do and I've done and now I wanna keep doing it, and I'm so sorry." Um, but she was incredible, and she totally understood. Um, and that was it. I stayed at the BBC, and I, it wasn't easy. I had some ups and downs, and lost contracts, and unemployed, and back employed again, freelance, and then I got a contract, and all of that, but that's how I got in.
- 13:17 – 20:44
Standing Out in a Male-Dominated Field
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. Wait, Rebecca, okay, I wanna, I wanna go back to you getting chosen. Um, we're the same age. I remember, I mean, this, this world was completely dominated by men, on TV, on radio.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Like, sports were associated with men. And then, as unfortunately is still true now empirically, a woman would have had to have been so much better than all the men in the contest just to get considered fairly. What did you do that made you stand out?
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, good question, Adam.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Gosh. Um, I think I did a lot of homework before-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh
- RLRebecca Lowe
... before I went into the final. Um-
- BBBrené Brown
She's such a baller. She's always prepared.
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs] That's kind of my thing, guys.
- BBBrené Brown
It is.
- RLRebecca Lowe
I mean, I, I, any time you're unprepared, well, first just for me, I feel terrified, no matter what I'm going into, but especially for a work thing. So I remember going in knowing I had... 'Cause I wasn't a trained journalist, and this was for a, a journalist, and I was, so I was sort of double nervous, 'cause I just thought, "I'm so far behind everybody else, and somehow I keep getting through." Um, but I did a lot of homework on who I was gonna interview, which was the main host of the soccer show that, um, that eventually I would actually end up working with, funnily enough. And I knew about his background, and so I had two minutes to interview him. So I managed to do that, and I managed to ask him questions that I'm fairly certain nobody else asked him, because I really delved into his background, and I could tell just by the, his facial expressions. So I thought that went really well. Then I had to do a piece to camera, and the good thing with that was, I'm so, I was so used to learning lines. So when they said to us, "You're gonna do a f- a piece to camera for one minute about this pair of soccer boots that belonged to Michael Owen," a player for England at the time. Can't remember too much else about it, but I quickly wrote it, learnt it real quick, and I managed to deliver it. Because I was so used to acting and delivering lines, I managed to deliver it without a stumble. So I think that, and I just think that, to be honest with you, I'm a very old soul, and I think at 21, which was the age I was in, in that final, I just don't think I came across as kind of young and flighty. I think I came across as kind of deadly serious, and I've always been deadly serious about my direction in life, how hard I wanna work, what I want to achieve, and I think maybe that. And I remember the other contestants that day. I remember feeling older than them. And they sh- not that they should've been different. We were all similar ages, but in, in fact, some of them were older than me. But I just felt, I just, I just knew that I could do it, and I just have always been, like I say, this old soul, and maybe that's what set me apart.
- AGAdam Grant
I hear maturity, professionalism. Pretty much anything except executive presence, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
No. I mean, I was just d- I was like d- I, this is... R- Rebecca, we have this thing where Adam and I both have this shared passion around do not confuse presence with preparedness. If you take your work seriously and you prepare, that is the presence that you need. You don't need any, like, bullshit, you know, acting and s- you know, subordinating. You just need, it's preparedness-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... and seriousness. And, and while you are-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
It's, it's interesting, because when I watch you, and the thing I talk about with my sisters a lot, is you only have permission to be as fun as you are at that table when you are fricking prepared. Preparedness is the unlock to fun, to going off script-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... a little bit, because you are ready.
- RLRebecca Lowe
And it's boring sometimes, guys, doing that amount of prepare, preparation. It's not always fun. It, it's, it's year after year I've done the same prep- you know, preparation for the, the show that I do at NBC, for the World Cup night after night. You know, there wasn't, and I don't, uh, this is just what I... Not everyone is the same, but this is just what I believe in very strongly. You know, I, there was never a second in my hotel room where I didn't have a podcast on from a, a really good established soccer newspaper or a radio show or whatever it was, to just constantly feed me information. And sometimes you don't even know that the information's going in, um, but it comes out later on the show. And so that all of that and, and, and doing the same thing over and over again, as I have done for years and years and years and years, I so... A- and also, like I said, I'm an old soul. I'm also incredibly boring. I never go out. I never go out for a drink. I, I, in fact, I stopped drinking before the World Cup. I never drink when I work anyway, and I was like, "Right, we're giving up drinking for the World Cup." And then I also just don't, I'm just not a big socialization person with work colleagues. So I n- I'm never a drink after work kind of person, and they take the Mickey out of me everywhere I work. They say, "Oh, Rebecca, she never goes out." No, I don't, because I'm preparing. Because the fear in my body of being on air and something happens and I can't fill that time, which is my job, you can't come back from that. So I would rather be so boring and, and so that when that light goes on, like you said, Brené, I am so ready- No matter what happens, I've got notes. And that's the other thing, I am not an iPad person. I am, as you probably saw on my desk, we got a lot of notes going on. We got a lot of paperwork. There's a lot of stuff. But that makes me feel centered, and I owe that to my employer, I owe that to myself, and I owe that to the viewer. In my opinion, you cannot be more prepared. It's not always fun. It's the kind of behind-the-scenes stuff, but without that, I, I mean, it makes me feel sick, the idea of going on air without that feeling of centeredness. I know what I'm doing. I've got everything I need. I've done it. And of course, we don't use it all. I mean, [laughs] I hardly ever use-
- BBBrené Brown
That's, yeah, probably the point, right?
- RLRebecca Lowe
I would say probably use 80... It's not the po- it's not the point. It's not the point. It gives you that presence of mind. It gives you that safety net in your brain. And, and it's... I just think it's the right thing to do.
- AGAdam Grant
Brené, I'm just dropping a note in later. We gotta talk about Xiaoping Chen's research on passion versus preparedness and also Nancy Rothbard's twist on workaholism, both of which are beautifully foreshadowed, Rebecca, by what you just said.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, and I, I put a pin down that we need to talk about consistency over intensity.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
You don't have a job like yours-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes, please
- BBBrené Brown
... because you have a big moment that you prepare for. You have the big moments because you prepare for your job every day like you do. And I mean, that's... We- your badassery, for those of, of us who study it-
- 20:44 – 25:36
Surviving Sexism in Sports Broadcasting
- BBBrené Brown
I wanna take you to a moment before we, before we tie this stuff to more research than Carter's got liver pills, as my grandmother would say.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
But, um, I, uh, I wanna take you to a moment that I literally got so pissed off reading, I had to set my prep down and walk away. I had to play pickleball for two hours and then come back. I wanna take you to the Arsenal-Leeds tie-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Ugh
- BBBrené Brown
... in January 2012.
- AGAdam Grant
Just-
- BBBrené Brown
And I want you to walk us through that experience.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Okay, so I was hosting the sideline desk, uh, in, in 2012, me plus two former professional soccer players for ESPN UK. So for a little while, not anymore, ESPN set up shop in England, so there was an ESPN UK, and I had a four-year contract with them to mainly be a sideline reporter, um, which I did not like. Another story. But also to start to try and do more hosting, 'cause that's really what I wanted to do. So this was a game, Thierry Henry, ironically, who I spent, just spent my summer with-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- RLRebecca Lowe
... had returned to Arsenal on loan from the New York Red Bulls, and this was his first game back, and it was the, I think, third or fourth round of the FA Cup. Big game, 60,000 people. 2012, so what's that? 14 years ago. ESPN UK decided to put my desk with my two ex-pros in front of the Leeds fans. And if anyone knows anything, or if they don't, let me explain. Leeds United, great, wonderful, storied English football club. The away fans, as always with a lot of clubs, very, very, um, vocal. Can be quite aggressive at times. Um, not, not my favorite, and I've dealt with many, many. Um, individually, I'm sure they're all great. As a group of 6,000, quite intimidating. And the desk was right slap bang in the middle of these fans, uh, in front of these fans. Um, and from virtually the first moment we went on air, the chanting started, aimed at me. Sometimes aimed at the two ex-pros next to me, um, but on the whole, aimed at me. Various, um, sexual chanting. Um, things were thrown at me. There were coins. There were hot dogs thrown in my direction. Um, but mainly it was just about being a female standing there doing her job and, and all of these awful chanting that just would go on and on and on. Pre-game was an hour, halftime, and then post-game. And my mom was sat at home, and she could hear. It was coming through the microphones, 'cause of course they're all right there. So she was texting me, "Are you okay?" A couple of other people in the industry texting, "Are you all right? We can hear everything." And the, I think the s- I think the saddest thing for me when I look back on it, guys, is that it washed over me as much as it... I mean, it wasn't the first time this had all happened.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- RLRebecca Lowe
I'd had, I'd had this for years. Every f- every ground I'd gone to, there was always a chant or someone shouting out about my, me, my body. "Does she do this? Does she do that?" Um, or 6,000 of them all chanting the same thing while I've got an earpiece in. I'm on live television. I'm trying to do my job. But I think the saddest thing is when I came off air, one of the ex-pros, Robbie Savage-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- RLRebecca Lowe
... really lovely guy, he actually put out on Twitter that, um, that wasn't okay tonight. What happened to Rebecca wasn't okay. But that was it. That was it. Nobody else said anything, did anything. I'll never forget that he did that for me. But it didn't... Again, it's hard for me to blame my bosses because It never crossed my mind, ever, to go to them afterwards, 'cause it was probably the most loudest one I'd ever experienced, and also other people were now seeing it. It never crossed my mind to go to them and say, "Hi. Sorry. That's not okay. I need some help. We need to think things through a bit better. Is there some security? Is there something we can do? Can we start a campaign? Is there something?" But 2012, even though it feels like yesterday, it wasn't.
- BBBrené Brown
No.
- RLRebecca Lowe
We weren't... No one was starting campaigns for women in f- it just wasn't a thing. Um, and so I don't really, I don't really blame them for it. But I also never spoke up. And I suppose when I really think about why didn't I speak up is probably because I thought it would be futile. There wasn't anyone else talking about it. And ultimately, I didn't wanna be a problem. I didn't wanna be the... Because then they might not give me the next game. Because oh, well, you know-
- BBBrené Brown
No, that's right
- RLRebecca Lowe
... they might not give me the next.
- BBBrené Brown
That's right.
- RLRebecca Lowe
So I just took it. So I just took it. Um, and one of the reasons why I left England was that whole toxic environment of English football, which has definitely changed, has definitely changed now, thank goodness. I don't know if it's fully changed, but it has got better, 'cause I've spoken to women who work in the industry. But that was, that was pretty horrible. Um, and now, thinking about it now, I, I... It's staggering to me that that was just 14 years ago.
- AGAdam Grant
Ugh. I'm s- first of all, so sorry that you had to go through that. It's, I mean, it's just unacceptable. Full stop.
- 25:36 – 29:15
Why Speaking Up Felt Futile
- AGAdam Grant
Secondly-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... when, when our colleagues Ethan Burris and Jim Detert study this, they find that in order for people to speak up about a situation like that at work, it has to be both safe and worthwhile.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
That, like it's, it's not enough to just take away the fear-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Mm
- AGAdam Grant
... and say, "Hey, Rebecca, don't worry. Nothing bad is gonna happen to you if you raise a concern." You also have to believe that this is not an exercise in futility. And so for me, that is a failure of the leadership in the organization, that they didn't create a situation and a system and a culture where you knew who to go to, you knew what to say, or ideally, right, where, where leaders were actually intervening-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... before you even had to speak up.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah, and, and what's interesting, Adam, though, is [laughs] I don't even think it bothered them. And not because they weren't great people, 'cause they were great people, but I don't even think they even had a s- they, there wasn't a system in place. There wasn't a person. There wasn't a... It was just part of what happens at football to women.
- BBBrené Brown
No, it sh- yeah, it's-
- RLRebecca Lowe
It's-
- BBBrené Brown
... just what happens.
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
It, it's just-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... it's, it's like changing it would be like, "What if we play without the ball?"
- RLRebecca Lowe
Correct.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Like it, it's that-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Correct
- BBBrené Brown
... you know, and I, I think it's-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... interesting to bring up, because I have to say that some of the allyship that I've experienced, and I talk about this with my husband a lot, some of the allyship that I've experienced, Adam, with you, just because it's an interesting study, us together doing things, because we have similar jobs, similar academic positions, we, we talk about similar content, and our experiences can be very different. And a lot of times I'm trying to analyze it, what could I do better, and you're like, basically, "Fuck that. There's nothing you can do better. We just did the exact same thing, and what you're experiencing is gendered." And I'm like, "God, you're right. I forget." You know, 'cause it's just the way... It's the price of doing business sometimes-
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... I think, when you're a woman-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... in an area where there are not a lot of women. And it's-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... and, and I agree with you, Adam, about putting a system in place. But the problem is that this, putting a system in place requires people to even think that it could be an issue. And I think that's, that's really-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- 29:15 – 35:14
Becoming a Trailblazer for Women in Sports
- BBBrené Brown
into the game right now? You, y- you have to say that.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Thank you.
- BBBrené Brown
You have to, like... [laughs] I, I hear Aaron, our producer, in the background going, "Yes, the father of daughters." Like, it, when you're out front on something like this, it, it's pretty-
- RLRebecca Lowe
And you know-
- BBBrené Brown
It's pretty hard
- RLRebecca Lowe
... that's the positive. You know, and, and I'm fine. I've dealt-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- RLRebecca Lowe
... with all of that, and I am fine. But that makes me so happy that you say that, Brené, because it's very difficult for me to imagine 10-year-old girls out there watching. I have a 10-year-old boy, and so in a funny way, it's actually just as good that he sees me, isn't it? But when I do have messages on Instagram or, and I do meet people and they say about their daughters, or I get videos sent of their daughters trying to impersonate me, because it's completely normal to try to impersonate-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- RLRebecca Lowe
... somebody who's been on television, it gives me an am- that, for me, is above everything else. Because they are, if they do wanna do what I do, I, I think they're, like you say, I think, I do think now they are in such a much safer environment to start to make their travels towards where they wanna get to than I was, and than a lot of women of my generation, although there weren't many, um, were all those years ago. So if it had to have that, unfortunately, this is the world we live in, if it had to have that so that now we can have these 10-year-old girls and boys understand That it's normal? Oh my gosh, I'm like, I, my work here is done. I can just-
- AGAdam Grant
Beautiful
- RLRebecca Lowe
... I can just ride off into that sunset, 'cause that is, that is immense for me. Immense.
- AGAdam Grant
That's, it's amazing. I mean, you're a trailblazer, no question.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And I'm thinking about some work one of our former PhD students, Karen Nolton, did on trailblazing. Uh, she's now a UT Dallas professor, Brené, so not, not far from you.
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
But she was looking at what motivates people to become trailblazers, and she found that it's not enough to just know that, you know, your, your group is facing low expectations. You also have to have a sense of belonging or, uh, or identification with your group. To say, like, "Hey, it's my job to represent women, to open doors for future women." And I'm curious how much of that was a motivator for you?
- RLRebecca Lowe
Hmm. Do you know what? I'll be honest, Adam. I'm not sure that it was, because there were, there were just not many women around for us to be... We had a little group, but there were so few jobs in football in England 25 years ago, that it was difficult to be a sisterhood. We tried-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- RLRebecca Lowe
... but it was hard, because, as we know, women are very, everybody is very competitive, but women are very competitive, especially in their early years when they're trying to get places. And I wouldn't say that it was very easy to kind of create a sisterhood that I could then try to represent. I felt like it was like I was trying to... I, I just felt alone. I felt alone. The, the few women that were doing the job, or kind of doing the job, were untouchable and unreachable, and they were probably protecting their jobs. They didn't want... You know, on, on the odd occasion that I would be in the presence of somebody who had come before me, there wasn't a lot of warmth, because... And I get it now-
- AGAdam Grant
Me too
- RLRebecca Lowe
... because, because I've seen it so many times, and I, and I, and they were just desperate that I wasn't gonna take their job, because there's only one job for a woman in, at this particular, let's say, show. So if I'm suddenly pre- preferred to them, they're out. And now where are they going? 'Cause there's only one job at all of these places f- for 25 years ago. Um, the trailblazer thing, I haven't really realized. I haven't... I've just been s- I've had to be so focused on, on trying to get somewhere against all the odds over the last 25 years, that really it's only been since I came to America that I've thought, "My gosh, there are actually..." And there are girls now that I have met who are 20, who will say to me, "I've been watching you since I was 7." First of all, I'm like, "Please, could we not with the math?"
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RLRebecca Lowe
I mean, that is just hideous. Absolutely hideous.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RLRebecca Lowe
But now they're 20, and I... [laughs] But I had a, I've had two or three, just in the last week, message me to say they're now doing broadcast journalism at college, and they want to be a sports broadcaster, and that's because of me. I mean, so it's only really been when I've felt safe, really safe in this country, and really supported, and seen as normal, that I've realized that I'm a trailblazer. Um, I suppose is the answer to that, because there just wasn't time before. There just wasn't time.
- AGAdam Grant
She says reluctantly. I think you need to own it, Rebecca. I think we can take this moment to acknowledge you have arrived. You have made it.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Oh.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, what an impact to have had, right? That people there, that there are women now who have chosen different careers because of the work that you did.
- RLRebecca Lowe
I know. I know. And I'm, and I'm hoping, and I'm, I'm fairly certain, just again from anecdotally, that even my little boy, who's 10, like he's out there commentating on his own goals. He's play- He wants to be a soccer player. But he said to me yesterday, "Well, maybe if after I've been a soccer player, Mom, I could be like Thierry and Zlatan. I could sit at the desk and be..." And I said, "Abso- absolutely you could." And so they are, these... And I'm seeing it through my, my son's eyes. He is seeing the people that I've worked with this summer, and he now wants to be them. So those younger... I mean, it's just, it honestly, Adam, it, it honestly blows my mind that somebody could want to do what I do because of me. I'm so grateful, and it, honestly, that is, again, my, like, what else could I possibly ask for?
- 35:14 – 44:49
The Art of Interrupting Well
- AGAdam Grant
What is the key to a good interruption? When you've got to interrupt people.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
'Cause like, let's get Erin, let's put up a picture of the people she's at the desk with when we show this.
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, can you just talk about your, can you talk about your three co-hosts real quick? Just name them and talk about-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Okay, yeah, real quick. So very, three very different people. Three absolutely gigantic personalities-
- AGAdam Grant
Gigantic, y'all
- RLRebecca Lowe
... the likes of which I don't think I've... Gigantic, Brené. Gigantic. I've, I have worked with big, big names. I have never worked with three bigger personalities in three totally different ways, every single day for hours on end. Plus travel, plus meetings, all the things. Um, so once I kind of tr- very quickly tried to learn about the three of them, the interrupting thing is so interesting. I think you have to use it as little as possible-
- AGAdam Grant
Okay
- RLRebecca Lowe
... so that when you do it, it has a, it's a bit jarring. Because you, you, you abso- You, you know, you want, in my, my opinion, my role is to make them look good. Therefore, I shouldn't need to interrupt them unless I think they can look better. So Zlatan, for example, wi- will answer a, sometimes, occasionally, will answer a question with a, with a, with a really big statement, and then I can sense that he's going, he's not building on that statement, and he's going off somewhere. No, no, we need to build on that statement. That's when I'll jump in and say, "But what do you mean?" Or- Tell me more about that. Something like that. Okay, so it's w- because they ... It ... He was first into TV, never done it before. So that's one thing. Um, yeah, in television you need time-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- RLRebecca Lowe
... to interrupt, 'cause normally there is not enough time to do anything. Um, I just think you have to use it as a tool very rarely and to get, keep them on track. And if they're a little, if they're a little fence-sitting on something. You know, if they're a little ... W- we're not, we're not gray area on, on sports TV. We gotta be black or we gotta be white. Like, we gotta get to one or the other. So if Alexi would sort of... I mean, to be fair, Alexi probably wouldn't. But if Thierry would s-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs] Would sort of slightly, um, hedge his bets on something, slightly be, "Well, I don't know." No, no, I need to know. No, I need to know. I- answer the question. I need to know the answer. Um, yes or no? And sometimes the... It's not really an interruption thing, but something I use sometimes quite a lot is, 'cause I think it has a big impact, and it's kind of interrupty, is, "Right, one word answer. Let's go down the line. Are they gonna win, yes or no? Yes, yes, no," whatever it is. And it's bam, bam, bam. And it gives the viewer, like, a whoa. And so it's not really an interruption. That's more of a kind of an, um, a jab, if you like, of television I like to call it. Like, a bit of a, a bit of a punch. Um, but in terms of interruptions, d- trying, I w- I try not to do it because I really want them to shine. It's not about, it really isn't about me. One of my biggest pet hates in television is when a host is, in my opinion, makes it about them. I'm literally the traffic cop, and those three are the stars, and I'm just directing them h- where to go so that their star can shine as bright as possible. So if I interrupt, I have to make sure it's only to make them even brighter.
- BBBrené Brown
And then you ended up being the star. Okay, I have to role play this with you.
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I know. I have to role play. Adam, let's just be-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh
- BBBrené Brown
... w- Adam and I, you're gonna n- you, uh, you're gonna interrupt me and Adam.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, perfect. Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And we're gonna go on little a tangent right now, and you need to bring us back to the podcast.
- AGAdam Grant
I've got a perfect tangent for us.
- BBBrené Brown
Go.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, Brené, so I was actually thinking while Rebecca was talking, she has brilliant skills for doing it in the moment, but I wanna know what happens behind the scenes. And I was thinking about Deborah Tannen's research on high involvement versus high pol- politeness cultures. You know this research, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I do, I do know this re- But Rebecca, you have to interrupt. We're role playing here.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, yeah. But-
- RLRebecca Lowe
I'm waiting. I'm waiting for the moment. You guys are too good
- AGAdam Grant
... wait for your moment. It's fine. It's fine.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, go.
- 44:49 – 53:16
Managing Different Broadcast Personalities
- AGAdam Grant
okay.
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Can I ask an Ashley and Barrett question?
- RLRebecca Lowe
Please.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. Ready?
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
And then we'll... Okay, hold on. If I don't ask, I'll get in so much trouble.
- RLRebecca Lowe
No question.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, let's turn it up.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Let's see how this is gonna work. This is super, like, NBC, Fox level tech.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Incredible. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Hi, Rebecca. This is Ashley, the older twin. It's so amazing to watch you on the desk for both the World Cup and the Premier League, and come on, Zé. Anyway, my question for you is, what are the biggest shifts that you have to make when you switch from working with the Robbies and Tim to Thierry, Zlatan, and Alexi? It's so fun to watch you with both.
- RLRebecca Lowe
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
So I'm just wondering, like, what are the biggest shifts that you have to make when changing, working with the personalities?
- RLRebecca Lowe
Oh.
- SPSpeaker
Thanks for all the joy you brought me during the World Cup. Can't wait for the Prem to start.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Ashley, how... First of all, hi, Ashley. How lovely are you? What a great question. Uh, the answer is a lot. A lot of, a lot of different things. Um, I'd never met Zlatan before. He'd never done television before. I had met Thierry before, but I'd never done television with him, and I had done television with Alexi, but it, uh, 14 years ago with ESPN and y- as we just discussed a minute ago, 14 years quite a long time ago. Um, and I couldn't remember too much other than I knew he was quite efficient operator with the, with the mechanisms of television, so I knew he would be my guy. If we needed to get to break, I could go to him last, and I knew that he'd finished pretty much, he wouldn't go over his time. The biggest differences [clears throat] [laughs] are, um, Thierry is absolutely set on talking about soccer, soccer, and only soccer. He is not interested in whether a coach is being fired. He is not interested in whether a-
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh
- RLRebecca Lowe
... a player and another player have had a fight in the dressing room. He ain't interested in the soap opera, opera around the game. He is only interested in tactics and football. And I get that. That's fine, and that's, he's very cerebral when it comes to that, and he wanted to do a tactics breakdown every day, because that gave him his fix. So I had to be careful what I asked him, because there were a number of times I would ask him a question, because I'm so used to it, about the narrative, about do you think how long has he got left in his job? For example, I didn't ask that, but for example. "Nope, not answering that, Rebecca." In fact, one day I said to him on air, and it was very early on, and this was a lesson. I said to him, "So Thierry, what's in your gut today? Who's gonna win and why?" "Nope. I don't do predictions. I do analysis." He said that live on air. I was like, okay.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RLRebecca Lowe
And that's, that's a slap on the back of my wrist. So that was okay. Note to self, he doesn't do predictions. Okay. So I then found ways of getting predictions, people love predictions, from the other two, and I'd always say to him, "I'm not gonna ask you, but I would like to know what the key is to today." So I still had to find a way of asking him. So ha- you have to know what they're comfortable with.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm.
- RLRebecca Lowe
So I had to get to know them pretty quickly. Um, with Zlatan, he'd never done television. So with Zlatan, I had to be very conscious of when I came to him, because he would be getting the timings in his ear. Talking of timings, we ain't listening to the timings. It, there're no chance he's listening to timings. First of all, he's Zlatan. He doesn't listen to timings. So-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RLRebecca Lowe
... I would always make sure [laughs] I would always make, make sure, timings listened to Zlatan.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RLRebecca Lowe
I would always make sure that I would go to Zlatan either first or second. But I couldn't often go to him third, and he knows this, I would say this to him, because it would be difficult for him to wrap up. And a couple of times, I, it just found out, it just became a situation where he was last, and I, I would have to really wrap him up, and he would just say, "What are you doing, Rebecca? Are you wrap- are you trying to stop me talking?" Um, I mean, he would do things on TV that people don't do. You know, pull back the curtain, I'd be like, "Yes, Zlatan, we gotta go to break now," or, "We're go- the kickoff is about to happen, so we've gotta stop talking here, Zlatan." So it's learning their personalities, but also key for, key for it, 'cause Robbie, Robbie and Tim are, have done it for years.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, yeah.
- RLRebecca Lowe
And it, they make my job very, very, very easy. I still have things with, with them that I have to just manage different things. But with these three, it was about learning their personalities off the air. So we would always go to a-
- 53:16 – 59:42
Giving Feedback to World-Class Performer
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, I have to ask-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... because this is such a great moment to compare. Brené, what would you have said to Zlatan in that moment when he said, "Were you happy with that?" I, I, I think it would be so interesting to hear how each, each of us would approach that, all three of us. So Rebecca, don't tell us what you said yet. Can we take a minute to reflect?
- RLRebecca Lowe
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
And Rebecca, you also have the chance now. You had to respond in the moment. Like, now with the benefit of hindsight, how would you approach that I think is, is fascinating.
- BBBrené Brown
I don't think I know what I would've said until I, until I got to this place in this podcast, because what I'm hearing as someone who studied leadership for decades, you're a leader. You're leading a team. You're leading a high performance team. You're getting to know individual members of a high performance team, their strengths, their opportunities for growth. So I think I would've just resorted to my leadership work, and I would've said, "I really appreciate you asking. Here's what I think we did well. Here's what I'm curious about. Um, what do you think we did well? What do you think the opportunity for growth is?" I think I would've just gone into kinda my leadership of performing teams. Adam, what would you have done?
- AGAdam Grant
In a rate of reliability, I would've said a, a version of that. I think I would've gotten to the same thing with different language. But what I was thinking was, "It's so interesting that you asked me that. Were you happy with it?"
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And then wait for the answer. And then say, "Okay, look, I've actually learned that 'Are you happy with it?' is the wrong question. Like, it doesn't matter whether it was good or not. The only question I wanna consider is how can we get better together. Let's talk about that."
- RLRebecca Lowe
That's so interesting. So I didn't do either of those.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RLRebecca Lowe
And I think both of those sound much better than what I did. What I did was in the context of the six weeks, it was day two. So what I did was, just knowing him, 'cause you guys obviously don't know him-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- RLRebecca Lowe
... so I'm, I have a advantage on that, right? So having known him for 10 days by that point, let's say, I thought he needed just a yes in the moment. I thought he needed a, "Great. It was great. I, the, they were happy in my ear, the producers were happy, it was great." You, that, that moment, I, I think I picked out a moment that he did, I said, "That I loved." So I picked out a moment, I said, "That bit, that was great." And we got our cup of coffee and we sat, and he went, "Okay, great," and we sat down. So for me in that moment, that was all I felt I needed to do. But I knew now the door is open.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- RLRebecca Lowe
If I can... Because these, these ex, these a- ex-athletes can take a lot of criticism because they've been criticized their whole life. I'm married to a former professional footballer and manager, and he's, he's so good. I'm terrible. He's so good at taking criticism, and I've learned that with all the ex-pros I've worked with. They are so good at taking constructive feedback. Most human beings are not, but when you've had it your entire life, like they have in their careers, they can do it. So I knew, A, that he would be fine at that, and B, but, but, that B, this was a big deal to him. I could just tell from that one question that this World Cup was a big deal for him. So I just thought, "We're not there yet. I'm gonna have every day with this guy for six weeks. I don't think I need to a- go too deep right now." And he was getting a coffee, you know? He was kind of, it was a casual, "Do, do you think that was okay?" He was quite casual. I said, I, I thought, "Let's just, not massage the ego, but let's just give him a boost, tell him it's great," and this was one thing I picked out, and then the doors opened. And then two days later, something happened on air, and he said, "What, what happened there? Was that okay?" And that's when I said, "Well, yeah, but you know what I think we should do?" And I, I talked him through something. And so it co- It, it... That was only because I knew I had six weeks with him, you know? And then I did more what you guys then talked about during.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
But-
- AGAdam Grant
You are so much more patient than I am. [laughs]
- RLRebecca Lowe
No, I-
- AGAdam Grant
I so admire... You played the long game.
- BBBrené Brown
But I-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... from a leadership perspective, we talk about this a lot with leaders, that it's hard to armchair that question. I, I love that you asked it. A-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... it's hard to armcha- chair it 'cause we don't know the full context, but it sounded like in that moment, what we, how we frame this with leaders is you got a permission slip. He handed you a-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... permission slip. And the one thing you never do when you're handed a permission slip, as a leader, is use it as an opportunity for coaching or feedback. The most important thing-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Huh
- BBBrené Brown
... you can do when someone hands you a permission slip is expe- i- is accept it with grace. But you never in that moment go back with feedback. So it sounds like to me-
- 59:42 – 1:06:11
Staying Calm Under Live Pressure
- SPSpeaker
Hi, Rebecca. This is Barrett. I'm the youngest sister. Obviously they saved the best for last. Thank you for guiding us through the World Cup. You were so impressive on the desk, and we're so grateful. My question for you is, your calm is so contagious. Whether it's on the desk for the Premier League or the World Cup, when your co-hosts get rowdy, how do you create the calm necessary to move forward? Thank you.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Oh my gosh. Barrett, what a question. I don't, do you know, I'm not sure 100% I know the answer to that. I think, I th- how do I create the calm? I think I know that the alternative is panic, and panic on live television [laughs] is gonna end my career and most other people's career. So I'm very aware of my responsibility as a host to be the vessel of calm no matter what. Because I think that watching television, you, as a viewer, you need, you, uh, we keep coming back to sort of feeling safe in all different ways, but you need to feel comfortable, I th- I, I personally think. I'm not sure feeling uncomfortable watching television is a great experience, unless you're watching the World Cup and there's actual football.
- BBBrené Brown
Hmm.
- RLRebecca Lowe
That's different. But studio shows, like the show that I do, it's, it, it's comfortable but engaged. Comfortable but engaged. Um- It would, it, it's so important to me to remain calm. It's so important because I think that the minute you don't, you lose, you lose everything. You lose your-
- BBBrené Brown
That's true
- RLRebecca Lowe
... credibility, you lose your presence, your breath, everything. Um, so I think I'm ju- I think it's a really difficult question to answer 'cause I think it's more of a reflex action actually, and the reflex action is, I think stems from a responsibility that this, I feel, is my show. I don't mean it's about me, but it's my show. It's my responsibility to get from A to B. They can be as chaotic as they want, but I have... I'm like the, I'm like the pilot of an airplane. You can be running around the plane, as long as we take off and land. That's kind of how it is. So I think it's a reflex action.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, so can I, can I share some feedback with you?
- RLRebecca Lowe
Please.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, this was such a loaded question from Barrett because we've analyzed you on the desk, um, 'cause we teach calm as a leadership skill.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Right.
- BBBrené Brown
You are amazing at this. So I will tell you specifically the behaviors I observe-
- RLRebecca Lowe
Okay
- BBBrené Brown
... when the desk gets crazy.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Yeah, please.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. You never match tone or speed of conversation when people get out of hand. You go quieter and slower, and they model what you're doing. You never, you... And, and it's, it's, it's, it's what we try to teach leaders. Um, literally, I was gonna ask Erin to clip stuff for me that I can show when I teach leaders because when they get worked up, you do exactly what is difficult to teach people but is a teachable skill, where you will literally at the desk like this, "So what I'm wondering..." And then b- and then they match you in speed, loudness, and tone.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Right.
- BBBrené Brown
So you use your entire presence as this calm barometer at the desk. You never match anxious, rambunctious energy. It, it, b- and that's very hard because anxiety is the most contagious affect in this, in the whole s- s- ocean of affects. Calm is also contagious, but you deploy it so strategically. It's crazy to watch.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Wow. Wow. Brené, no one has ever analyzed what I do, ever, so to hear that back is kind of an out-of-body experience, and I didn't even, I'm not even 100% sure I knew I did that consciously. I don't know if I d- know consciously I'm doing that. I just think I'm so aware that I have a responsibility. I can't get out of hand.
- BBBrené Brown
No.
- RLRebecca Lowe
I can't get out of hand 'cause then where do we go? Then who's saving this ship? A- and also, I also think that maybe I'm now trying to reflect on why I do that. Maybe if I go up with speed, with volume, with rambunctiousness, again, the spotlight comes to me.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Because then I'm part of that.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- RLRebecca Lowe
And I, I, and I'm so, so, so imploring b- people who do my job to not be a part of that because that's what they get paid to do. And if they wanna be rambunctious, that can be great TV, no problem, but that's not what I'm paid to do. So I think maybe that is just so ingrained in my brain as my, my overall work belief, that I am the s- the, the, the pilot and not part of the show, that maybe that's why I do it. It's hard to know, but hearing you say that is so interesting to me. Now I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna be conscious of it in a few weeks when I go back to work.
- BBBrené Brown
No, no, no, don't do that.
- AGAdam Grant
Don't, don't.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm excited.
- AGAdam Grant
We like the unconscious confidence there.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Okay, okay, okay.
- 1:06:11 – 1:11:36
Fast Lightning Round
- RLRebecca Lowe
Okay. Feel free.
- BBBrené Brown
One thing you're deeply curious about right now.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Oh, my gosh. Um, I, the first thing that springs to mind is the kind of teenager my son's gonna be. He's 10, and, uh, we are heading into it, and I'm, I am so deeply curious which way we're gonna go. Uh, not that there are more... There are more than two ways, but, like, don't know. I just feel like is he gonna be the teenager that, that certain other [laughs] boys I've seen are, or is he gonna be like his half-brother who was a really, like, he didn't really change, and I'm kind of really curious about that.
- BBBrené Brown
So fun to watch.
- AGAdam Grant
All right.
- BBBrené Brown
So fun to learn.
- RLRebecca Lowe
What a joy. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
You're, you're gonna take your, your future teenager into the wildest, wackiest curiosity shop that you've ever seen. Uh, what are you putting in that shop? It can have anything in it.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Oh, my goodness. Um-
- BBBrené Brown
You can give us one-
- RLRebecca Lowe
So I would like-
- BBBrené Brown
You can give us one item that it wouldn't be a curiosity shop without. One thing that would have to be in there.
- RLRebecca Lowe
And can, does it have to be a real thing?
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-mm.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Like, does it have to be... Okay, so, so we both, my future teenager and I, would definitely like the, a full explanation, a book maybe, maybe a, maybe a, um, a slideshow explanation about what the hell is out there in space, and when does it end, and why does it end, and how does it end, because nothing ever ends, and we talk about it a lot, and we would like the explanation, please, and I would like it in layman's terms, and I would like a full explanation, and I would like proof, and I would like all of that. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Do you follow Cleo Abram?
- RLRebecca Lowe
No.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh.
- RLRebecca Lowe
But now I will, right?
- AGAdam Grant
Huge if true. Follow immediately.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Okay. Love it. Okay, great.
- BBBrené Brown
One thing you're deeply grateful for right now.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Oh, my gosh, that is 100% my, my own health. Just booked myself in for a colonoscopy. Just thought I'd just drop that in there, because we gotta do these things.
- BBBrené Brown
Let's go.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Right, had a mammogram on Monday.
- BBBrené Brown
That's it.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Let's go.
- BBBrené Brown
Big girl panty time, folks.
- RLRebecca Lowe
Um, right, v- quite literally-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- 1:11:36 – 1:15:41
Breaking Down Rebecca's Success
- BBBrené Brown
Whoo. What did you think about my girl Rebecca Lowe?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh my gosh, what a rock star. So good. So good. So thoughtful, so insightful. I mean, we always admire star performers, and then the open question is, can they talk about what they do? And she's as good at analyzing what she does as she is at doing it. That's not fair.
- BBBrené Brown
It's not fair, and what's, what's really... It's interesting, 'cause I, I think this would, maybe, maybe there is a study that you know about that you can tell all of us about, but sometimes I think that those of us who had a circuitous path picked up things along the way, very specific skillsets and mindsets that we don't even understand underlie our success at what we're doing now. Like for me, for example, bartending. I'm not kidding you. For nine years. Like, I learned more about empathy and storytelling bartending than I could ever learn in classes on empathic strategy. You know? And then I think sometimes when I h- when I heard her talking, I was so excited to talk to you about it because she has a masterful skillset. Would you agree?
- AGAdam Grant
Ugh. I mean, har- yeah, strong agreement. I, I was thinking about David Epstein's book Range just now when you were, when you were talking.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, wow, interesting.
- AGAdam Grant
Which is full of evidence on the value of taking those detours and doing side quests and, like, having either, you know, a second career or a hobby that's really different from your job, 'cause you're right, there's so much learning and also confidence that comes from doing those things. Like- I, for me, performing as a magician is [laughs] like where I picked up some of the skills I use in the classroom and on stage. I didn't know that was gonna be relevant, but how to deal with a heckler, like how to, like set up the element of surprise for an audience, that was huge. But I never would've told somebody to do it.
- BBBrené Brown
God, I'm really, yes, and I'm thinking also, when I've had a hard time since we've known each other before, you've drawn a parallel between being a diver and getting the twisties. And like, and, and there was nothing that... It was probably anxiety for me, but when you describe the twisties, that's how I felt emotionally or mentally. And, and so it's like, it's always surprising to me that the, the breadth of things we draw on that make us good at what we do, and the danger of think- when you think, talk about the book Range, the danger of... You know, I even look at me growing up. I played seven sports and sucked at six and a half of them. You know what I mean? Like, but today I'm surrounded by parents who pick a sport for their three-year-old, and then that's the only thing they can play, and then they've got club coaches that say, "If you try to play anything else, you're off the team." And it's just, I don't know, bartending. You know, the only job I ever got fired from was cleaning houses. I just wanna tell you this. Don't use Pledge on the floor, even if it makes it shinier, because someone will break their tailbone and fire you. But, um, I don't know.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
It's just the fact that she, you know, because she was, studied drama, it gave her a leg up as a sports broadcaster 'cause she could memorize direct-to-camera stuff. You know, like, I don't know, and so I don't know. It's just interesting to me. I don't know what I'm trying to say, but I'm interested by it.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, I think, I think it's, it's another reminder that, like [laughs] that success is a squiggly line, not a straight line. And we have so many people trying to track their kids, like, for the shortest path to success, as opposed to saying, "They need to accumulate a bunch of interesting experiences that will teach them unexpected skills," and that's the only way they're gonna approach the thing that everybody's doing one way, a different way.
- BBBrené Brown
God, really love that. Okay,
- 1:15:41 – 1:17:50
What They Learned From Rebecca
- BBBrené Brown
what's one thing you learned from Rebecca that surprised you?
- AGAdam Grant
Ugh. Okay, so first thing is, when, when we were talking about preparedness earlier, I was thinking about this, this great study by Xiaoping Chen and her colleagues, where they look at entrepreneurs doing pitches, and they compare entrepreneurial passion versus entrepreneurial preparedness-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm
- AGAdam Grant
... to ask who's gonna get funded.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
And the finding is that preparedness beats passion, that, that investors, like, they, they don't care whether you're doing a song and dance, they don't care whether you're, you know, fired up. What they're looking for is what is actually the real cue of passion, not the enthusiasm you show, but whether you've done your homework, you know your numbers, you've figured out all the different, like, parameters that might affect whether your idea is gonna work or not. You've pre-mortemed yourself, essentially. And I was just thinking, I was thinking of Rebecca, like her preparedness is where the passion comes through.
- BBBrené Brown
I think that's so, I think that's so beautiful. Um, you know how I feel about preparedness. Um, I don't, I'm don't ever have to be, nor am I ever the smartest person in the room, but I am definitely in the running for the most prepared person in the room 99% of the time. And I don't prepare out of fear. I prepare out of respect and love for myself and the other people in the room. Um, but I am such a fan of preparedness that that research, I lo- 'cause here's the thing. Even with students, 'cause I do all group projects, so if I have a group of MBA students presenting, I love an enthusiastic, I love an enthusiastic presentation. You're gonna get a really bad grade if your preparedness doesn't match it.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
If you've got a really prepared piece for this, for me in the class, and it's doesn't have a lot of entertainment value, you're gonna get a good grade.
- AGAdam Grant
As it should be. Nicely done.
- BBBrené Brown
I'll go to the movies to get, you know, I'll go see The Odyssey for entertainment. Um, I, I need you to be able to answer all my questions, and, uh, demonstrate anticipatory thinking and care.
- 1:17:50 – 1:21:27
Healthy Striving vs. Workaholism
- AGAdam Grant
Same.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, second piece of research.
- BBBrené Brown
Maybe you do the next one. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
So, my colleague Nancy Rothbard studied work- workaholism, and I think in the traditional workaholism literature, there was the, the common finding that, you know, it's, it's a, it's basically a risk factor for stress, for, you know, burnout, for also physical health problems.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And Nancy said, "Not so fast, not so fast." Because there's a difference between being a compulsive workaholic, who works all the time because you feel pressure and guilt and anxiety and shame if you're not working-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... and an engaged workaholic, where you love what you do, or you care about what you do. And she sure enough found that only compulsive workaholics experience the cost, not the engaged ones. And I, I felt like Rebecca was narrating her life is engaged workaholism. Like, not socializing, not going out. She loves soccer. She cares deeply about her job. She wants to do the best job she can, and I related to that personally. I, I imagine you do too, but I was curious to hear your take.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, so I, I, I love this. Um, l- you know, as a grounded theory researcher and someone that leans heavily into linguistics, I don't like that we're adding adjectives to workaholism to say whether it's good or bad-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... because as also a sober person for 30 years, I just don't think we should... I, I think we should change the construct when it moves from an addiction-based, um, issue to something else. So I think, I, I wish the research said there's workaholism that's driven by Not enough worthiness, fear, shame, those kind of things, and then there's this new construct called this, which can appear similarly to, you know, in, in a similar way, but is actually motivated. That's why I was very careful when I talked about I prepare not out of fear or shame or not enoughness.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Uh, because there have been times in my life where I was there, but I prepare out of a love of mastery and respect for people's time. So I agree with the research and I f- the finding. I think the labeling of constructs is super important, and I, I take issue there a little bit.
- AGAdam Grant
Interesting. So you would, you would prefer to... Y- you see the dynamic, but you would prefer to call it something like just compulsion versus engagement.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, it's just like saying there's, to me, the, the way I write about, I've, I've written about this before, is we don't say there's starvation and healthy starvation. The construct-
- AGAdam Grant
Right
- BBBrené Brown
... on its own, no adjective can change emotionally or tie to the word. Or-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- BBBrené Brown
... I think when you get into the addiction literature, workahol- work is just one of many substances we use-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... to do the same kind of thing.
- AGAdam Grant
That makes perfect sense. You know what's so interesting about that is in, in, in changing the emotional tone and clarifying the meaning, we lose the paradox, like, in, [laughs] which you normally love. Like, engaged workaholic is a paradox.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I just, I just think for the me, the construct is bankrupt.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I just think that-
- AGAdam Grant
Understood
- BBBrené Brown
... like, uh, like for example, exercise addiction, but good exercise addiction. No, no, no, I, let's, let's call it something else. Like, you know, I get, I don't... And it, it could be my recovery perspective, so I don't know.
- AGAdam Grant
No, I like, I like your perspective, and I think what we... It's, okay, I, I have a better analogy now. What you're looking for is, okay, we have stress. We're not gonna start talking about good stress. We're gonna name a different term, eustress, E-U stress.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes, yes.
- 1:21:27 – 1:22:13
Perfectionism vs. Healthy Striving
- BBBrené Brown
h- here's another one that I like, and I, I would privilege the, the construct emotional resonance over the paradox, which I love.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
Perfectionism versus healthy striving.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. Yes. Exactly.
- BBBrené Brown
Does that make sense?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I've never-
- BBBrené Brown
Because-
- AGAdam Grant
... I've never liked in that literature perfectionistic concerns versus perfectionistic striving. No, no, no.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
One is perfectionism.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
That's maladaptive.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
The other is the pursuit of excellence.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
That's adaptive.
- BBBrené Brown
That's adaptive, right. So I think it is... I think you just named the fulcrum word for me, adaptive versus maladaptive. And I think adding adjectives to maladaptive terms-
- AGAdam Grant
It's muddying, yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
It's muddying. That's all.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I think that's, that's really good. I like it. Okay.
- 1:22:13 – 1:23:28
The Interrupting Cow Joke
- AGAdam Grant
Um, I have a joke for you. It's my w- I had to get in on the sister game.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, I love a joke.
- AGAdam Grant
Because your sisters participated, and when we were talking about interruptions, I was reminded of my sister's favorite joke. Tell me if you've heard this one.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, I'm-
- AGAdam Grant
You ready?
- BBBrené Brown
I'm so scared. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Knock, knock.
- BBBrené Brown
Who's there?
- AGAdam Grant
Interrupting cow.
- BBBrené Brown
Interrupting cow who?
- AGAdam Grant
Moo, moo, moo.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Moo.
- BBBrené Brown
It's worse than I thought.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, it is, is it?
- BBBrené Brown
It's worse than I thought. Yeah. Um, do what? Tell Parker that one last night. Oh, my God, yeah, Aaron, Aaron, our producer, is saying, "And how old is Parker?" She's 12. 12, yeah. [laughs] Aaron told Parker that last night. Okay, that is funny. Um, it was as bad as I thought.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I thought so.
- BBBrené Brown
It's really good though. It should stay in here. Just, uh, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
The Grant family jokes keep 'em coming.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, God.
- BBBrené Brown
Ashley and Barrett would have just killed me had I not included their questions. Okay, see you next time. [upbeat music] The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.
- AGAdam Grant
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.
Episode duration: 1:23:29
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Transcript of episode 6aMtl-qkdXE
